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In the book Moving with the ball: The migration of professional footballers at page 119 it says that Yugoslav First League became fully professional in 1967. Would it be OK for me to add a subsection "Former leagues" and add Yugoslavia, or should I add it as note at Serbia since Serbian SuperLiga was the one that kept all time the league in continuation as "Savezna liga" from 1946 to 2006? FkpCascais (talk) 04:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No need for a 'former leagues' section, defunct leagues are currently included in with current. Just make sure you add it was from 1967! GiantSnowman 07:05, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, happy for you to add this to the main page as long as it is clearly labelled. Fenix down (talk) 08:07, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done. FkpCascais (talk) 10:17, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, as I saw in history section it's required to create a discussion section before editing the list, so... Current evaluation of A Lyga was made all the way back in 2010 (2009-10 was rough period for Lithuanian football when many famous clubs had bankrupted and were replaced by I Lyga clubs (including mentioned FK Mažeikiai) which were added to the highest league not taking into account the sport principle(by special permission of Lithuanian Football Federation) and as I see wasn't checked from that time. Current sources quite clearly proves that league is professional: [1] - The about page of governing organization of the league (Lithuanian football clubs organization "A Lyga"), which members are all clubs of the league, main aim is "skatinti, vystyti, populiarinti futbolą bei kelti profesionalaus futbolo lygį Lietuvje" (Translation:boost, develop, popularize football and increase professional football level in Lithuania). Another source would be an article from one of three main football specified Lithuanian websites - [2]. This article is answering why Lithuanian footballers leaves A lyga for non-professional clubs in Norway: "finansinis atlygis už darbą galimai bus net didesnis nei už profesionalų futbolą A lygoje" (Translation: pay for work might be even bigger than for professional football in A Lyga). I hope these sources shows enough to re-establish A Lyga as a professional football league. - Respublik (talk) 09:50, 10 August 2016 (EEST) (P.S. Sorry for my English grammar)

Hi Respublik, the key word with regards to this guideline is that clubs must participate in a "fully" professional league, i.e. one where all clubs pay their first team players sufficient that they can all be considered full time professionals. The quotes you cite above certainly indicate there is a degree of professionalism in Lithuania, but they also indicate that the league has yet to reach a fully professional state. Fenix down (talk) 08:49, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What I want to clarify is that clubs organization "A Lyga" only function is to control A Lyga and all clubs of A Lyga are(and they're only) members of this organization. If they declare they purpose to increase professional football level in Lithuania, than it's clear indication that all current league clubs and the league have professional status, cause otherwise they should be reaching this level. Respublik (talk) 17:30, 10 August 2016 (EEST)

I would argue it actually states the opposite, that the league does not have a universal level of professionalism, merely semi-professional or with a few clubs only that are fully professional and that they have the stated aim of increasing this to achieve a status which could be deemed to be fully professional in the future. Fenix down (talk) 14:46, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Interview with LFKA president Deividas Šemberas [3]. "Tikriausiai žmonės ieško geresnių sąlygų, tiek gyvenimo, tiek ir futbolo. Ir jei jie gauna pasiūlymus išvykti ir uždirbti daugiau pinigų, natūralu, kad nusprendžia palikti Lietuvą. Gal tai nebus visiškai profesionalus futbolas, gal jie dar papildomai darbuosis, bet tai yra pačių futbolininkų reikalas. Manau, visi žino, kad Lietuvos futbole nėra didelių pinigų. Tas pats Utenos „Utenis“ negali pasiūlyti žaidėjams prabangių sutarčių, bet jie visada sumoka tai, ką pažadėjo, dirba profesionaliai ir suteikia jauniems futbolininkams galimybę tobulėti." (Translation:Maybe people are looking for better conditions, both living and playing football. And if they're receiving offers to leave and earn more money it's natural that they decide to leave Lithuania. Maybe it won't be fully professional football, maybe they're going to have extra work, but it's personal decision of these footballers. I think that everyone knows that in Lithuanian football there isn't much money. For example FK Utenis Utena can't offer luxurious contracts for its players, but they always pay what they agreed on, works professionally and gives chances for young footballers to improve.) - Respublik (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2016 (EEST)

I'm confused with what you are trying to say, all you seem to be presenting are quotes that support at best a semi-professional status. Fenix down (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's about leaving Lithuania for more money in foreign leagues but sacrificing playing professional football("Gal tai nebus visiškai profesionalus futbolas"). Which (I hope finally) clearly shows that it's fully professional league(because otherwise they shouldn't be sacrificing it...). It also shows that even outsiders(Utenis is currently 7th from 8 clubs) are professional organizations.

And I hope this shows finally that in A Lyga players earn adequate salaries and are professionals, not amateurs - [4]. Older interviu before start of the season: "Lietuvoje futbolininkai uždirba nedaug. Nuo 500 eurų, iki 5 tūkst. eurų, bet tiek gauna geriausi žaidėjai, žvaigždės" (Translation: In Lithuania players doesn't earn much - from 500 to 5000 EUR (per month), but this is salary which is only received by best players, stars." To add a little bit of context average monthly salary in Lithuania is about 550 EUR per month (data from department of statistic), so I hope it proves that in A Lyga where worst players earn as much as statistical Lithuanian, they're receiving respectable salary and are considered professionals. Respublik (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2016 (EEST)

there's no debate about there being a degree of professionalism, but I am not seeing evidence of full professionalism across the league. I would challenge your assumptions on wages in Lithuania too, as this suggests that the average gross salary is actually nearer 1000 Euros. It's referenced but not precise enough for me to identify the specific text backing up the claim. Your 550, seems much closer to the net salary and I am sure the quote you present is talking about gross salary. Furthermore, the general tone of the comments you have produced indicates there is not much money in domestic competition, which doesn't lend credence to the idea that the league is genuinely fully professional. you might wish to post a notice at WT:FOOTY if you want to attract more editors to this discussion. Fenix down (talk) 11:32, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I haven't looked closely to the article I took data from, just yesterday evening another article came out, which shows that currently average gross salary is nearly 750 EUR, but it's still isn't far away from the suggested values. And I'm not arguing that in Lithuanian football salaries and clubs budgets aren't big compared to western Europe, but I'm not sure that this is an argument to determine league or clubs status. Also after all data I looked through, I can't find arguments to suggest that some of 8 A Lyga clubs isn't professional to call league semi-pro like it was done before. And maybe you could help with the last part, I'm still a little bit new to these procedures. Respublik (talk) 18:30, 11 August 2016 (EEST)

That's OK, I think there is always going to be a wide-ish range of estimates, it would still suggest though that a significant proportion of players in the country are paid somewhere between 25 and 50% less than the average gross salary for the country. Whilst this can also mean that all of the clubs in the top league are professional in the sense that they pay their players more than just expenses, it would be stretching it to say that the evidence presented suggests that essentially all first team players in the Lithuanian top division earn their sole income from football.

As an addition, "fully professional" as a term, although not easy to define in binary terms, has gained consensus as a useful guideline to notability since, as a general rule of thumb, it can be said that if all the clubs in a given league can afford to pay their players enough that they need no other income from elsewhere then it can also be considered that the league is of sufficient standing that it can attract the money either through tickets, TV or sponsorship to fund this and therefore is of sufficient popularity in a given area for the players in that league to essentially be considered inherently notable. Fenix down (talk) 15:55, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well I think there shouldn't be more discussions after this article. Some quotes: "Ką rinktis lietuviams – saugoti profesionalų statusą ar tapti mėgėjų klubais kaip Europos čempionato dalyvių Islandijos ir Šiaurės Airijos lygose?" (What to chose for Lithuanians - maintain professional status or become amateurs like Euro 2016 participants Iceland and North Ireland leagues clubs?), "P. Malžinskas netiki, kad Lietuvoje dar ilgai išsilaikys profesionalų futbolo lyga" (P. Malžinskas doesn't believe Lithuanian professional football league is going to persist for much longer), "Ar ilgai turėsime jėgų išlaikyti visą profesionalų lygą? O gal vertėtų pasekti estų pavyzdžiu, kur keli klubai yra profesionalų, o silpnesnioji aukščiausiojo diviziono komandų dalis – pusiau mėgėjų?" (Do we have enough power to maintain fully professional league? Maybe we should follow Estonian path when few clubs are professional and others highest league clubs are semi-professional?) Respublik (talk) 09:24, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How can you consider Dominican Republic's top league professional and not consider Puerto Rico's top league professional when these two leagues have the same level of competition? Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 23:10, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably because one league is fully-professional and the other isn't. Or do you have evidence that the Puerto Rican league is fully-professional (or the Dominican one isn't)? Number 57 10:48, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about common sense, it's about rigoursly enforcing rules. The rule says that evidence must be provided. Few would be crazy enough to suggest that the top Costa Rican league, for example, isn't fully professional - but written evidence is surprisingly scarce, and they remain unlisted here. So simply provide the evidence that Puerto Rico's top league is fully professional (or that Domincan's isn't), and all will be fixed. I think everyone is aware that there are possible errors or oversights on the list. Nfitz (talk) 23:47, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, just realised that Puerto Rico is listed as not fully professional based on [5] where it says it's a semi-professional league. Is there any reason to think that is wrong? Nfitz (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this guideline needs to be reviewed. It is my understanding that FIFA does not distinguish between "semi-professional" and "fully professional". A player is either a professional or an amateur. see page 10 So therefore the leagues listed cannot be described as "fully professional" because amateur players are not barred from playing in any of them. My suggestion is that the title should be changed to "top level and professional leagues" and/or that the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League and their equivalents in other confederations should be included. Currently articles on players who have played in the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League are been deemed not notable based on the fact that they have not played in a so called "fully professional league". How can a player such as Gareth Seddon, who spent the majority of his career in the lower levels of English football be deemed notable, while a player like David McMillan who have played in the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League be regarded as non-notable. Djln (talk) 12:33, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

They can be listed as fully-professional because in many cases we have reliable sources saying they are (I'm not sure how or why FIFA would be relevant here?). It's been suggested many times to allow top level players notability, and rejected every time because there are many top flight leagues that playing in would not make someone notable. Number 57 21:56, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I really cannot get over the comment here on why FIFA would be relevant. My question is why is User:Number 57 relevant? FIFA are the governing body of football in the world. Their definition of a professional contract would be a place to start given the clear lack of any definition existing any where else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDublin (talk • contribs) 12:44, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Djln, never mind Gareth Seddon. What about Biko Brennan in USL! There is something wrong with the rules that allow lower league Polish players qualify for notability where Ciaran Kilduff is starting his second Europa League campaign and has had his article deleted twice! But he is notable enough to have an article on the french wiki? DavidDublin (talk) 12:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Might be too early but the Philippines is setting a fully-professional league soon, the Philippines Football League as early as March 2017. As stated in this article the league will be fully professional and will have a salary cap for its players. There is also a licensing system to be imposed on the clubs. The only potential setback would be if the league only manage to gather less than six teams which it would mean that it is not recognized by the AFC as a national league but I don't know if it could still be considered a professional league.--Hariboneagle927 (talk) 05:05, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would wait until we hear word from the AFC in regards to what the consider it. If they consider it good enough to be the national league, the league champions are allowed in Asian competition, and again, all players are considered professional (which is seems they will) then we can add them. I am very excited by this! --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 23:03, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with ArsenalFan, it certainly seems like they might meet FPL criteria, so definitely something to keep an eye on. Fenix down (talk) 07:27, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I know its been discussed to death. But over the years many clubs have been professional, to the point around 2008 nearly every club in the top division was fully professional.

Here is an article discussing the contracts players have - top players making €3,500 per week a few seasons ago (relative to 2015), now making €1000 per week. Its a healthy professional wage. Not just the top players are paid, goes on to say alot of lads were making €500 to €600 per week now only making about €200 per week. All the same these lads are still on professional contracts.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/wages-are-low-and-contracts-short-but-professional-game-is-on-firmer-footing-1.2127267

Another article about contracts here.

http://www.the42.ie/league-of-ireland-40-week-contracts-2015529-Mar2015/

Is it because the lads are only on 40 week professional contracts that it is not considered fully professional? I don't understand why that would matter. They work 40 weeks in a year, and take a few months off. Still making a living from football. Its not that they are doing some other job on the side to supplement their earning. The 40 week thing is just a technicality - as the author discusses.

Now I am not saying that the lads get paid a lot some are but not all. But they get paid. €16,000 per year is decent enough wage for a young 20-something year old (i'm sure the PFAI chairman would disagree, but I remember my first job out of college and asking for about the same figure as that).

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fall-in-wages-shows-tough-irish-reality-31144122.html

And there has to be some realisation that the top division was all but professional when a significant number of players were pocketing over €100,000 per annum at the end of the Celtic Tiger era. The article doesn't mention the average wage at the end of the Celtic Tiger era but it could be inferred to be about 3 times the 2015 average of €16,000 which would be €48,000. Which is professional in anyone's money. Why can't the players who played during this era be considered notable?

In my mind the top clubs paying €1000 per week (over €4000 per month) are fully professional. So I don't understand when the likes of Shamrock Rovers, or Dundalk play in the Group Stages (not qualifying stages) of the Europa League against other pro teams that it does not qualify the players as notable. I thought there was a general agreement on this that it would. After all the Europa League is in effect a fully professional league and if fully pro clubs like Dundalk or Rovers play in it then why can't their players have wiki articles.

I have tried to make a positive contribution to the wiki, creating articles for notable players. But I have been thwarted and turned upon by the wiki elite, and to be honest I couldn't really be bothered any more.

All the players in the league of Ireland are members of the PFAI - the "Professional" Footballers Association of Ireland. Does that not say something?

Also a little more reading.

http://www.newstalk.com/Professional-football-doesnt-pay-enough-to-fund-a-mortgage-or-get-married

Like I said, its not a big wage, but the word of note throughout the whole article is professional, professional, professional. This is a PFAI spokesman, so of course he is going to prepare his comments to look for more support for his professional players - so I would not get hung up on the fact that he complains they are not paid enough to get a mortgage. Other articles that I have posted show that a significant number earn a very good wage and would have no problem supporting a mortgage/family etc.

DavidDublin (talk) 02:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

€200 per week is not a professional wage, many players have 2nd jobs - hence why we consider it a semi-pro league. The fact their union is called "Professional" has no bearing on it. GiantSnowman 08:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your first statement invalid, your second has no grounds. The average wage is €400 per week. Ten years ago the average was closer to €1200 per week - why are players who played back then at least not considered notable? Have you any evidence to back up your claim that many players have a second job. The top clubs are still paying €1000 per week and are competing in fully professional league - the Europa League. DavidDublin (talk) 10:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"McGuinness readily acknowledges that the average figure of just €400 means many are on far less with some, he suggests, on the €100 minimum figure used to define a professional." So there you go your first point is wrong in two ways 1. €200 is not the representative wage, 2. €200 is a professional wage. I think that someone passing judgement and deleting articles should be more knowledgeable to be honest. You have made a very feeble attempt to defend position 3 short phrases to counter the time I spent putting in a fair and complete discussion of where League of Ireland is right now and where it has been in the past. Your reply doesn't seem like you have either read my comments or my sources. The only points you made in your reply were wrong, invalid and nothing to back up your claims. I actually can't believe you have so many incorrect points in just 2 sentences. DavidDublin (talk) 10:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Basically, there are two types of players playing the game in organized football associations: amateurs and professionals. FIFA defines professionals as players who have a written contract with a club and are paid more for their footballing activity than the expenses they effectively incur. All other players are considered to be amateurs (some of them are paid for playing, some not)." http://blog.fieldoo.com/2012/08/contracts-in-professional-football-player-club/. Yes it is just a blog and he has no sources (I can spend time looking for an official source), but there needs to be some sort of definition of what is and what is not a professional footballer and not something that is just decided at the whim of the wiki elite.

I would be very confident that every player in the Top Level of the League of Ireland has a written contract and are paid above expenses incurred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDublin (talk • contribs) 11:00, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because by your own admission the league is NOT fully-professional (only some teams are). The average monthly salary in Ireland is about three times what some of these footballers earn. A wage of €200 per week isn't even enough to rent the average one-bedroom apartment, let alone other normal living costs like food and bills and transport, ignoring tax. So, again, how is €200 per week a professional wage? GiantSnowman 11:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The debate is not whether they are paid a lot, and €400 per week can definitely get you by. Look it wouldn't be easy - but I'm not saying they are paid a lot. Can you show me where I have "admitted" the league is not fully professional? Can you tell me which definition of professional footballer we should go for, the PFAI definition (>€100 per week) the FIFA definition (written contract > expenses incurred) or GiantSnowman's definition? Can you tell me about the many players that have second jobs? There are just a handful of top leagues that are governed by UEFA that are not considered notable for wikipedia. We could get around all these pointless arguments by just accepting every club that has a UEFA coefficient, or any League that qualifies for UEFA competition - Europa League or Champions League. DavidDublin (talk) 11:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What about Scotland is £600 per week (Ross County avg wage for Premier Division club) enough to cover normal living costs in Scotland if €400 is not enough for Ireland? What about The teams below Scotland in the Scottish 1st who will be paying even less than £600 per week and probably less than €400 per week too - but they are fully professional? Where do you come up with your arbitrary distinction between a pro wage and a semi pro wage? What about the Portuguese 2nd Division, the Polish 2nd and 3rd tier. Has the same rules been applied to these teams. If not then why is it that the league of Ireland has to prove a level of wages beyond what the other leagues have to prove. http://www.globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202015.pdf. The professional level of the top League of Ireland teams at least is almost at the level of MLS teams like Real Salt Lake City, Scottish Premier League teams like Motherwell,Partick Thistle, Ross County, Saint Mirren, J-League teams, CFL teams. And the rest of the division's level of professionalism is very close to the level of Ross County and at least on par with the Scottish Championship. And dare I say streets ahead of the lower divisions in Poland and Portugal. What about Nigeria £130 per week and that is fully pro? http://screamer.deadspin.com/chart-the-average-player-salaries-in-soccer-leagues-ar-1658856283 The average wage in League 2 in England is £800 per week http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-english-football-wage-disparities-between-the-divisions/92692/ It hardly dwarfs the League of Ireland salaries. I would say the lower leagues in Spain and Italy pay significantly less than that £800 per week but no question about them being included in the list of fully pro leagues. DavidDublin (talk) 12:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get some consensus that the league was professional in the mid 2000's when the top players were making €100,000+, a lot of players were on €600 per week and I estimate the average wage must have been at least 3 times the current average which is €16,000 making it €45,000 plus. Does anyone have an argument against this meeting the professional criteria as has been enough for other leagues? DavidDublin (talk) 18:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What reliable sources do you have which confirm, categorically, that the league was fully-professional at one point, and for what years? GiantSnowman 18:39, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion it is fully pro right now as all players are on professional contracts according to the PFAI (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/pfai-looks-to-help-airtricity-league-players-supplement-income-1.2174569) and according to FIFA laws on footballing contracts.

Some quotes from above link

"The hope is that the move will enable some of the country’s 200 or so professionals to better make ends meet at a time that the average amount earned by a Premier Division player is just €16,000 per annum"...

"McGuinness readily acknowledges that the average figure of just €400 means many are on far less with some, he suggests, on the €100 minimum figure used to define a professional." ..

Although officially professional, the wages quoted in that source (and the same average is quoted in a number of other sources I posted) are rather low. But that is just today's landscape.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fall-in-wages-shows-tough-irish-reality-31144122.html

"So while the tail-end of the Celtic Tiger resulted in more than 20 players earning in excess of €100,000, with one unnamed player taking home €180,000 in his basic salary ...... This year the highest earner in the League of Ireland is on €40,000 per year."

This states that towards the end of the Celtic Tiger top players were earning 4 to 5 times what they are earning now.

The below article also supports the view that wages were at least 3 times higher in the past.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/wages-are-low-and-contracts-short-but-professional-game-is-on-firmer-footing-1.2127267

"We have a lot of lads who were earning €500 or €600 a few seasons ago who are getting a third of that now"

No other league has provided reliable sources confirming categorically that their league is fully professional and for what years it remained fully professional. Many leagues have been accepted after links pointing to the average wages, or links quoting managers/players happy for individual clubs to have maintained a full time status. Some links are sources are 14 years old without any new sources confirming what level of professionalism was maintained. We need common sense and for the guidelines to be applied fairly and equally. If they are applied fairly then I can't even understand why we are arguing that a league where top players were paid €100,000 to €200,000 per year is not professional. And where the average wage was likely at least 3 times the current €16,000 per year for the division as a whole (not just top teams). This is professional.

Can you please add the League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005 to the list of fully professional leagues?

DavidDublin (talk) 21:12, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We have been here before and reached what I thought was a reasonable consensus

"We do have to draw the line somewhere. In the case that you're talking about where Bohemians will soon play a European match against another professional side, then the players in that match would pass WP:ATHLETE, in the same way that a player with a Scottish or English club who hadn't played a league match would become notable (eg Darren Fletcher made his Man Utd debut in the Champions League). It would be up to whoever was contributing to the article to reference that appearance, then the article would not be in dispute. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2009 "

A reliable source was asked for before and was provided in the way of an article from the BBC stating categorically that the League of Ireland was fully professional. But for the League of Ireland that didn't cut it at the time.

If the guidelines do not allow you to add League of Ireland Premier Division, or even League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005, then the very least you can do is add Europa League as a fully professional competition and Champions League as fully professional competition. DavidDublin (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few things - 1) please read WP:TLDR; 2) please learn to indent; 3) this source (from 2015) mentions players being classed as "amateur" because they don't earn enough, and those at the higher end of the pay scale are still only paid for 80% of the year (so not fully-pro); 4) something being described as "professional" does not mean it is "fully-professional" by this page's standards; 5) still nothing presented showing it was fully-pro 2000-2005. GiantSnowman 06:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with GS, the walls of text are not helpful. To be honest, I'm not seeing anything indicating that wages are sufficient to ensure that essentially all players involved do not need to seek additional employment and in fact the arguments for including LOI on the list of FPLs seems to actually argue the very opposite from a salary pov. Additionally, the idea of adding the Europa League or Champions league as a fully professional competition is also a non-starter given that demonstrably amateur leagues partake in both competitions. Frankly, there seems to be considerable confusion in the statements above between the notion of professionalism, i.e. that players receive some form of recompense beyond their basic expenses for playing, and full professionalism, where all players receive sufficient money for football to be their sole source of employment. Fenix down (talk) 07:25, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/pfai-looks-to-help-airtricity-league-players-supplement-income-1.2174569

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fall-in-wages-shows-tough-irish-reality-31144122.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/wages-are-low-and-contracts-short-but-professional-game-is-on-firmer-footing-1.2127267

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/africa/8084037.stm

So these four sources do not prove from today's wages that all players receive sufficient money to be their sole source of employment. But it shows that at the tail end of the Celtic Tiger all players were. Sorry about the long text before, I'm not all that familiar with the process here, I was trying to explain my points, but I think you guys are right, I think that I wrote too much that my points were lost in the wall of text. DavidDublin (talk) 08:17, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think there a few points that would be useful to have clarified in relation to this debate. Firstly, is there an objective definition of "professional" that is being used by @GiantSnowman: and others in this case to refer to the leagues? I see @Fenix down: referred to it as the scenario "where a player receives sufficient money for football to be their sole source of employment". Is there general consensus on this thread that that is agreed upon? If so, has an objective figure been set at the exact wage which is deemed to be "sufficient"? As a side note for what it's worth, I think it would be helpful to include the Champions League and Europa League competitions proper (from group stage onwards) in the list of fully-professional leagues as a player's appearance in either of Europe's premier continental competitions surely confers notability. --IrishTennis (talk) 18:35, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just about the money; fully-professional basically means that football is your full-time job. Some semi-pro players in England are paid well above the minimum wage, but they're not fully-professional as they only train twice a week. Number 57 19:30, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

1. Can we get agreement on the definition of professional football. So far we have "where a player receives sufficient money for football to be their sole source of employment" (can we assume above minimum wage) and "train 5 days a week". Although it's not possible to reveal the players confidential contracts. I think that for most leagues average figures are released that will give a good indication.
2. Can we remove Ireland from the list of non professional clubs. It was removed in July 2009, the reason cited was no consensus. As there is still no consensus particularly for early to mid 2000's can this be removed. And the source quoted provides particularly weak evidence and doesn't distinguish between the First and the Premier.

DavidDublin (talk) 21:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, we can't remove it because there are multiple reliable sources stating that clubs in the league are semi-professional. Here is a former Chairman of Cork City (and CEO at two other clubs) explicitly describing the Premier Division as "a semi professional league with semi professional players". This book states that "football in Ireland is played on a semi-professional and a part-time basis". Number 57 21:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is obviously no clear consensus on this, thats why it had been removed. And if there is no clear consensus that it is a fully pro league then there cant be a clear consensus that it isnt! It is true that the league and clubs have all flirted with professionalism at different times from as early as the 70's when Giles made Rovers fully pro, to a point in the 2009 where all teams in the top division were fully professional. I don't care too much for the book you reference as he also describes other sports in Ireland like rugby as part-time/amateur.DavidDublin (talk) 21:58, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty of evidence was provided in the discussion in 2009 that the league was not fully-professional at that time (for example this) and it is very clear that the league is not fully-professional at this moment in time – as we have such evidence, there is no basis for removing it from the list. Number 57 22:11, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification Number57. I'm sorry but I find the phrasing in that article doesnt even make sense, "one of the only full time professionals". He is either one of the full time professionals, or the only full time professional. What does "one of the only" mean? But if you look at the numbers quoted in that source - "Shamrock Rovers' wage bill for the entire 22-man squad is just £12,800-a-week." "He [...] earns £850-a-week during the season". This means that the rest of the squad earn an average of £569 per week - sounds like a professional wage to me. I think the most likely season that we will come to a consensus on is actually the 2009 season. Wages seemed to hit a peak around the 2007 season, but it was a 12 club Premier Division. By 2009 they had dropped the two worst teams and left with a 10 club premier. This saw an increase in the standards. Even the newly promoted club Dundalk were handing out full time contracts and have been fully professional since.. Soon after came the big bust.DavidDublin (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you need more evidence that Shamrock were part time in 2009, Michael O'Neill is quoted on their own website as saying "We're a part-time team". Number 57 20:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Hard to argue with that. I wouldn't mind getting £500-a-week to play part time though. I more or less agree that LoI doesn't meet the strictest definition of fully professional. Can I draw some parallels with other sports notability guidelines? Cricket players are notable if "has appeared as a player or umpire in at least one cricket match that is judged by a substantial source to have been played at the highest international or domestic level". Semi pro basketball players (D League) "Have won an award, or led the league in a major statistical category of the Continental Basketball Association or NBA Development League." these guys salaries are on a par with LoI 2015 average so it's a relevant comparison. Also they can get a 10 day contract in the NBA and be notable - and ppl have said the 40 week contract in the LoI was too short! Amateur or college athletes are notable if "Have won a national award (such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards or the equivalent in another sport), or established a major Division I (NCAA) record.". I personally would like to see something similar for top level domestic leagues like LoI. I guess if you have won an award it wont be hard to prove GNG, or were top scorer or player of the season. Are these kind of things the things that would be accepted under GNG? DavidDublin (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can this league be added to the fully pro leagues.

"Wages at the top clubs in the Kazakh Premier League average about $15,000 a month, although the highest-paid players can earn double that amount, the source said. Further down the league table, average wages are closer to $6,000-7,000 a month."

http://in.reuters.com/article/soccer-kazakhstan-idINDEE8850C120120906 — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDublin (talk • contribs) 21:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It should be already here! And First League also. They're both members of EPFL Respublik (talk) 04:47, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We've been through the EPFL before - membership of that organisation does not confer 'fully-professional' status on Wikipedia. GiantSnowman 06:57, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi GiantSnowman. You seem to be covering the same ground over and over. I think this is because there is a lack of a clear definition of professional football on the project page. I think we need something. FIFA, UEFA, PFAI (other associations probably too) have their standards of what a professional footballer/league is. Even the wiki does. However this page has a different definition which is undocumented. Whatever the criteria is should be placed on the project page. I gather from conversations here that a professional footballer earns a sufficient wage so football is his sole source of employment and can full support his cost of living. A sufficient wage varies from country to country and is generally accepted to be at least the country average wage. In addition a professional football trains full time - presumably something like 4 days per week plus match day to make a 5 day week. All first squad players in all teams in a league need to be professional for the league to be considered fully professional. I would also like to note that the definition applied here is way above any definition applied of professionalism even on other parts of the wiki. And I would also like to note that the definition here is practically unprovable as confidential contracts on what individual players are earning are not public information. DavidDublin (talk) 09:06, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From the source presented above, I see no reason why Kazakhstan's top league should not be added. The source is reliable and the figures quoted are easily enough for players to require no other form of employment and I see nothing to indicate that the situation has changed since 2012. I would be happy for this to be added to the list with a note indicating that players from 2012 onwards are considered notable per NFOOTY.

I would echo GS's comments on EPFL, membership does not indicate fully professional (or even professional) status. If you read the wiki article, you will see it is an organisation of bodies which arrange competition in countries, and these often extend to second / third tier competitions which have a much reduced level of professionalism.

I am also not convinced of the need to establish any objective criteria around full professionalism, nor that that is possible. there is no need, because there is already a perfectly workable guideline in GNG for any player who has received wide coverage regardless of level. Secondly, WP:FPL is decided by consensus in the same way enWiki is. It would not be possible to have a concrete criterion around salaries for example given widely differing living requirements globally. However, in this instance, we have discussed a reliable source and, unless there is some objection, I see no reason why it should not be added to the list.

As previously established, the league's membership in the EPFL is not indicative of anything for the purpose of this list, but the Reuters source is convincing enough. As such, I have added the league to the list. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:08, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

USL should be removed from the list of fully professional leagues and the players articles marked with AfD. The players are not under contract and are only paid during the season from March to September. A good player earns $2000 per month. Even reports that some make as little as $50 per week. In the interest of applying the guidelines fairly this league should be removed.

For NASL players it is not unheard of for bench players to be paid room and board according to this source. For many players the season only serves as a part time job. One of the former owners of the Carolina Railhawks said players in the NASL were making $1800 to $3200 a month for 8 months. This was 2012-2013. That was the last sort of official statement on salary. DavidDublin (talk) 12:08, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]