RfC: amending parts of WP:NCELECT[edit]

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (government and legislation)#Elections and referendums claims to contain guidelines as to how to title articles about such democratic exercises. However, it appears to be a guideline which is not in sync with practice and which sometimes even leads to results which are outright contrary to the WP:TITLE policy.

Thus, I propose that all relevant phrases of NCELECT be altered to reflect actual usage, i.e. elections should be at [Date] [location name or adjective] [election], with the preference being left to other considerations of the article title policy (notably WP:COMMONNAME). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Survey (NCELECT)[edit]

• Support as proposer. This seems to be a typical case of a guideline not exactly following actual practice, but never having been updated to match, and this leading to problems when it is incorrectly applied in a spirit violating WP:NOTBURO; not to speak of the fact that this is incoherent with the basic article title policy: a particular issue is with the guideline's call to use exclusively adjectival forms for country/place names. This is not very uniformly enforced (the vast majority of articles for sub-national level contests are, without exception, at the [Date] [Location] [election] form, ex. 2018 California elections, not "2018 Californian elections"), mostly because it's utter nonsense (2019 United Kingdom general election is a very obvious example of where using the adjectival form - "British" - would be very thoroughly inappropriate, not only because "British", while technically correct, is not used in this fashion due to specific socio-historical issues, but also because nobody refers to these as such) and because it leads to titles which are not particularly natural to a reader looking for the topic (if you can figure out where the article about the 2019 San Marino election is actually located without searching, good job), thus violating WP:COMMANNAME rather unambiguously; all in the name "but it is a guideline" - apparently, an ill-defined guideline because the only major RfC I see about it on the talk page archives is this, which makes no mention of using an ajectival form - this was altered here by Number 57, having been put in basically unquestioned in 2005 and not altered or passed up to the community for actual formal approval at any point in time. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support Yup, makes sense. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Oppose This would lead to even more inconsistency in election article title names. And British election articles really should be called just that. Number 57 08:11, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Weak Support - Consistency is good, but needs to be balanced with recognizability per COMMONNAME. Blind, over-consistency, can lead to readers not being able to locate articles. Redirects can help with that. Blueboar (talk) 11:45, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support allowing either adjectival or noun form. We quite reasonably prefer 2017 French presidential election to 2017 France presidential election, but 2020 United States presidential election to 2020 American presidential election and 2017 Greater Manchester mayoral election to 2017 Greater Mancunian mayoral election, while 2019 British general election would be at best informal and more likely highly contentious. NebY (talk) 12:18, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support. Found it! Had to search, though. JBchrch talk 13:17, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Oppose proposal as-is. If I understand this correctly, the proposal calls for indiscriminately setting all titles regarding election articles to the "[date] [location] [election]" format, setting aside a very well-established consensus in place in Wikipedia for decades and affecting hundreds if not thousands of articles, under alleged "not in sync with practice" grounds (a claim which, otherwise, has been left unsupported by actual evidence) and because it "sometimes even leads to results which are outright contrary to the WP:TITLE policy" (so, rather than addressing the particular issue(s) at hand to make it/them conform with TITLE, let's dump the whole NCELECT altogether and disrupt the vast majority of cases where it works nicely, why not?). On the one side, adjectival forms are a natural way of referring to the election in question in the article's body (thus avoiding unneeded piped links): 2019 San Marino general election or 2019 United Kingdom general election may have sense, 2016 Spain general election, 2021 Germany federal election or 2017 France presidential election are awkward when used in-text and would like require piped-links or the creation of redirects. But then, it should be noted that the current convention has been expanded locally to allow for more WP:TITLE-abiding exceptions in specific situations, i.e. 2020 United States presidential election (not 2020 American presidential election) or 2019 United Kingdom general election (not 2019 British general election), because that's how sources commonly refer to those and that's how those would be naturally referred to in any given text body. If the problem at hand pertains to specific situations (and it clearly is, by the wording of the proposal and because it seems like it is deriving from this particular discussion), then I'd favour an amendment to NCELECT introducing an additional clause under which "location" can take precedence over the adjectival form in those situations where sources do prefer the former over the latter (this is what already happens de facto in many situations, in a similar way that there is a clause providing for situations such as 2021 Scottish Parliament election or 2017 Northern Ireland Assembly election). Let's don't turn this into a WP:BROKE issue by causing havoc where it is not warranted. Impru20^talk 14:24, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  @Impru20: You appear to indeed have misunderstood. The proposal is to allow either form, depending on which makes most sense in a given context. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:45, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

• @RandomCanadian: If that's the case, then yes, since that's what has been done locally for years without much trouble. Still, the formal text of the proposal is "that all relevant phrases of NCELECT be altered to reflect actual usage, i.e. elections should be at [Date] [location name or adjective] [election], with the preference being left to other considerations of the article title policy". Since I do not agree with it for the reasons exposed above and because it would leave the door too open to ambiguity, I keep my "oppose proposal as-is" !vote, favouring instead the incorporation of an additional clause (in a similar fashion as done "for elections to particular bodies or offices") which could be written as follows: "For elections in countries for which reliable sources prefer such format, default to the form "Date [country name] type election", as in: 2020 United States presidential election, 2019 United Kingdom general election, or 2020 New Brunswick general election". Impru20^talk 14:55, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

• @Impru20: it sounds like you're missing the "or adjective" part of "[date] [location name or adjective] [election]" (as you did in your initial comment). There's no ambiguity. It allows both "2019 United Kingdom general election" and "2017 French presidential election" as written, in contrast to the existing guideline (which prohibits the former). It is more explicit in this than your proposed text. — Bilorv (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

• Article names like "2019 United Kingdom general election" and "2020 United State presidential election" exist because it can be argued that using the adjectival form is problematic and an exception is made to the more natural article title form, which is the adjectival one. My issue with the proposal is that it gives equal weight to location and adjectival forms, whereas the latter should be preferred based on their naturalness. The risk is that we end up with worse article titles or time-wasting RMs because someone thinks it's better to call an article '2021 Germany federal election' and the proposed new wording of the guideline says this is fine. Number 57 16:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

• @Bilorv: I have missed nothing, I am explicitly against the proposed change as formulated. I am in favour of having the current scheme of using the adjective first as the default naming convention, but allowing the use of the location in specific cases where appropiate (which is what has been done in Wikipedia for years already). This is in contrast to the or proposal, which would basically allow for an indiscriminate use of either the location or the adjectival form in any case, even in elections of the same country (i.e. the proposal would technically allow for both a 2016 United States presidential election article and a 2020 American presidential election article to co-exist, with both being technically equally valid. It is a drastic example, but the point is made). My proposal would basically turn this unwritten convention into written policy, which would achieve the same as RandomCanadian's current proposal while being much more harmless. Impru20^talk 17:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Impru20: I should have pinged you below; in any case see this for further explanation as to why I don't think your drastic example would happen under my proposal as well. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@RandomCanadian: The problem is that your wording leaves it just too open to interpretation and deviates from customary Wikipedia practice for many years. Your assurances do not matter, since you can just simply control the way other people would implement such naming convention under your proposal. Considering past precedence through Wikipedia on other NCs and MOS, it will get messy. I would rather prefer a straightforward solution that does not mean any drastic change to current policy. Impru20^talk 06:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Agree to disagree, then, as I think the policy should not explicitly favour one form or the other (even if in practice one can expect that one or the other might be more frequent in some contexts), and also think that simply suggesting to follow the other criteria to fix any ambiguity as to which should be used will ensure that articles are overall at better, clearer titles (otherwise, as I also know from experience, people are going to argue "but the guideline favours adjectives" even in contexts where there is no reason to favour adjectives). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:37, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• Support. We've needed a general consistency here for a long time now, and the proposed pattern already agrees with most of our relevant articles. I detect some "United Kingdom" vs. "British" dispute in the background, and I don't think this RfC addresses it; it is better taken elsewhere. WP:COMMONNAME is already effectively our guide to whether in a particular case to use an adjective or noun form, though it would not hurt for the guideline to reiterate, something like "When choosing between a noun and adjective form, use the form most frequent in reliable, independent, English-language sources."  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Comment - Perhaps on this topic, we should go via local consensus. I think there'd be opposition to 2024 American presidential election, for example. GoodDay (talk) 23:53, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  @GoodDay: What are you opposing? If we followed the guideline as written, it should be "American". Obviously, the guideline is not in sync with actual practice, hence why I am proposing it be amended so that both forms are allowable, with the decision of which one to use for a particular country or region being left to local consensus. i.e. my proposal is basically this, but copied to the other three similar sentences too. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:10, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  Just pointing out, that if we attempt an across the board implementation (either option)? It might get messy. As for myself, I will abide but whatever this RFC's decision is. GoodDay (talk) 18:52, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  @GoodDay: The proposal isn't to make it a free for all; I explicitly wrote what is implied by usual policy, i.e. "with the preference being left to other considerations of the article title policy" - i.e. it shouldn't merely be an arbitrary choice, it would still need to follow the usual guidelines (including naturalness [so no "Germany elections"] and recognisability/precision [so no "American elections"]). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:43, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  Changing to neutral. I'll abide by whatever the RFC decision is. GoodDay (talk) 23:50, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  We should go by local consensus at the country level, but not at the election level. If 51% of sources say "2016 United States presidental election" and 51% of sources say "2020 American presidental election", we shouldn't use different terms just because that's how the numbers played out; we should strive for consistency within a single class of elections. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 17:32, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• Support: needs updating as it's out of line with current practice, and the proposal will cover essentially all current practice. Even the Sanmarinese example wouldn't actually need to be changed to match this new NCELECT, though it should be. — Bilorv (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support per nom, particularly to accurately document current practice and with the preference being left to other considerations of the article title policy. Levivich 23:36, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support. Nomination makes cogent argument to have policy follow generally accepted practice. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Oppose but allow redirects. At minimun, the proposal and guidance should prioritize country name over adjective, as not everyone may be familiar with the adjective or the adjective may either be over- or under- inclusive. --Enos733 (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Comment. A fair point, but note that this proposal still moves in the right direction - at least it allows the country name, while the current guidance suggests adjective-only. SnowFire (talk) 19:31, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support. On Wikipedia we tend to go by actual cases rather than follow some philosophical "this is how it should be everywhere" principle. It would be wrong to call any UK-wide elections "British" because that word is ambiguous - it can mean "pertaining to the United Kingdom" or "pertaining to the island that contains most of England, Scotland and Wales, but certainly not Northern Ireland". But carrying that case over to everywhere leads to such absurdities as calling the recent election in Germany by a name that is hardly ever used in English. Let's just use the normal rules for article titles. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support. Guidelines should follow usage, not the other way around. As a note, the change doesn't even forbid the adjectival form, so really can't see the issue with such a change at all - although, per others, certain flagrant examples like San Marino should probably be moved sooner rather than later. SnowFire (talk) 19:30, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support: I see this as leading to titles that are stronger on the "naturalness" criterion. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:36, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support: The current guideline fails Criteria #1 and #2 - and even without relevant policy, the San Marino example was extremely convincing when I first read it, and remains extremely convincing now. I'm not entirely certain we need any guideline to define this - I would think that we can come to reasonable titles on the basis of Criteria, perhaps with an explanatory essay pointing users in the right direction - but as we have one, the one we have might as well make sense. BilledMammal (talk) 20:28, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Comment: Whatever the result may be, I think there must be redirects made to allow for both forms. Have one form be where the article actually resides, while have the redirect of the other form to allow people to search using either form and also for links to be made with either form used. --boldblazer 23:17, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support: Guidelines should allow actual usage to avoid confusion and ambiguity. Sam.gov (talk) 21:02, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[]
• Support - There are many cases where the adjective isn't the WP:COMMONNAME; in some cases, the adjective isn't even WP:NATURAL. (Thinking here of US states in particular... I can't imagine many people go around using the word, say, "Massachusettsian.") Amending this policy helps to ensure that NCELECT doesn't end up at cross-purposes with broader naming guidelines. ModernDayTrilobite (talk) 18:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Discussion (NCELECT)[edit]

• Whatever the exact shady origins of NCELECT, or the outcome of this discussion, formalising this aspect via a proper process is likely to reduce potential for misinterpretation. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:02, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]
• The title of this section is misleading – the proposal isn't to deprecate NCELECT, it's to amend it. Also, why wasn't this done on the guideline's talk page like usual attempts to amend guidelines? Number 57 08:11, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  The proposal is not at NCELECT cause that page has limited traffic. Also because as far as I see there's been an editor who's been editing the guideline without obtaining previous consensus for it; specifically on this point (diff), and that same person has been enforcing the guideline they wrote themself as though it were force of law. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 11:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  That edit was a simple correction, not a material change (as 'demonym' refers to the people of a country which wasn't appropriate for the guideline, although in practice, in most cases they are the same). And I am not the guideline's original author. Number 57 12:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

• We have Year Canadian federal elections & Year United States presidential elections. We also have Year United Kingdom general elections & Year Russian presidential elections. They're all Year location election form. GoodDay (talk) 09:15, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

  Acoording to the guideline as written, it's supposed to be Year [Adjectival form] election (so "2019 British general elections", because "British" is indeed the demonym for "United Kingdom"). The guideline making no exception for other overriding policy concerns (such as the well known WP:CRITERIA), so should be amended to cover at least that. In addition, the guideline as written does not reflect actual practice, as demonstrated by countless cases like the California elections RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 11:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[]

• The amendment is required. PS - I'm trying to picture 2022 Oregonian gubernatorial election, 2022 Illinosian gubernatorial election, 2021 New Jerseyite gubernatorial election, 2023 Lousianian gubernatorial election, etc. GoodDay (talk) 20:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Deletion of TimedText Pages[edit]

Why are requests to delete TimedText pages, which are audio, considered at MFD rather than at FFD? I think I know the answer, which is because that is what the rules say. Why do the rules send deletion requests for TimedText to MFD, which is not otherwise a forum that concerns itself with files containing analog, audio, video, image, or other such information? Why not direct those requests to FFD? That isn't really a "good fit", but it is sort of "less bad fit" than MFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Robert McClenon: probably because they are relatively rare, I expect most TT deletions are speedy (G8 when the file is deleted), and the others are rather uncontested so they just lumped in to the "everything else" that went to MfD. Venue-wise, most FFD's are about copyright issues, which could pertain to TT's - but again it is rarely a concern. Aside, if we really wanted to move something out of MfD - I've always argued that Draft's would be the best (as their deletion arguments are almost always about content or content inclusion criteria - not about miscellaneous things). — xaosflux ^Talk 10:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

For reference, I looked over the last 20000 page deletions. Of those, 27 were TimedText - all of which were G8. Additionally, Special:PrefixIndex/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/TimedText shows that there have only ever been 32 TT MFD's. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:07, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Also, TT is not audio - it is plain wikitext. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:08, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

I don't think that either of these locations are completely bad, but I agree with Robert that these requests would ideally be handled at FFD, even though that means taking a little effort to update the rules (and probably Twinkle, too). WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

I don't object to moving these from MFD to FFD, but think that the overhead of even worrying about any of the mechanics is time best spent elsewhere. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:00, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

I agree with xasoflux; it's just not worth worrying about. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:11, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

I agree that, if there have been only 32 deletion nominations for TimedText files since Day One, then it makes very very little difference where we delete them. Perhaps this is because everything having to do with TimedText files makes very little difference. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

I agree it's not worth spending much time on. I can only think of three reasons for deletion: there is no associated media file, the associated media file is being deleted, or the transcription is significantly wrong and no one is volunteering to fix it, which for most cases doesn't require much discussion: an admin can watch the media file with the timed text and decide if it should be deleted. isaacl (talk) 19:52, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Agree, deletion of media files, sound like images, belongs at FfD, primarily because complex copyright concerns are interwoven, like with image files. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:40, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

It not being a big frequent issue is not a reason to not improve something. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:17, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Deletion of Drafts[edit]

On the other hand, the deletion of drafts is a substantive matter. User:Xaosflux writes:

Aside, if we really wanted to move something out of MfD - I've always argued that Draft's would be the best (as their deletion arguments are almost always about content or content inclusion criteria - not about miscellaneous things).

Where would we move deletion of drafts to? They should not be moved to AFD, because, although drafts are proposed articles, notability is the most common reason for deletion of articles, and notability is not a reason for the deletion of drafts. What forum is there to move deletion of drafts to? Should there be a WP:Drafts for Discussion forum to discuss deletion of drafts, that could also handle appeals of rejected drafts, or complicated issues about whether to accept drafts? If drafts are not miscellaneous, what are they? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

@Robert McClenon: in my general opinion, miscellany is more about things that are ancillary to the project (mechanics, presentations, and niche things that never got their own home from VFD such as TimedText above) - while drafts are more aligned with the core mission of gathering/curating of knowledge. DfD could be the answer - there hasn't been enough push to bother before - but they are certainly a larger category than TT if we are looking at splitting something out of MfD. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:08, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

I've been one of the regular participants at MFD for several years, and my unscientific estimate would be that most of the time it has slightly more "draft-like" stuff than anything else, and next to that is WikiProject-related stuff. An exception was that in 2019, it was mostly portals, until the portal deletions resulted in an ArbCom case that didn't settle anything. (ArbCom, reasonably, said that there should be a community discussion. Community discussion fizzled out because the community was too scattered even to have a focused discussion.) However, much of what goes to MFD is either drafts or draft-like stuff, such as draft articles in user space. So a lot of what gets discussed at MFD is proposed content. (And portals are also a device for presenting content.) Robert McClenon (talk) 19:33, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Perhaps we can move it out, by getting rid of that process to delete drafts. After all, we already have broad allowance for what drafts are allowed to exist, even if they wouldn't have a hope of surviving an AfD (we just delete them after they've been inactive for six months), and we already handle the things that need to be deleted (copyright, BLP, illegal) through speedy deletion.

With that said, this is just brainstorming; I have minimal experience with MfD. BilledMammal (talk) 21:22, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Drafts are frequently left to languish, which might be unfortunate but which is a fact of life, but when deletion is being discussed, I would prefer to see those discussions happen at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. They should be deleted (or not, as the case might be) on the same grounds as any page that is already in the mainspace, and the most straightforward way to make sure that the same standards are being applied is to have the same process handling it. There has been a tendency among AFD and NPP regulars to sometimes reject drafts and new pages on notable subjects on grounds that Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions rejects. I also wouldn't object if the preferred process looked like first moving the page to the mainspace and then immediately nominating it for deletion. Leaving that log entry in the mainspace might make it easier to trace histories later.

Also, once a page has survived AFD, it should not be in draftspace. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:51, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Also, once a page has survived AFD, it should not be in draftspace. Yes. This is something I strongly support making policy. Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

There are really only 3 reasons why a draft should ever be deleted:

1. The sole author requests it (G7)
2. It is actively harmful to the project (e.g. attack pages (G10), copyright violations (G12), and similar)
3. No human has touched them for 6 months (G13) - and I'm not fully convinced this isn't causing more harm than good in its present form.

For everything else, there needs to be a very good reason why it needs to be deleted before it is eligible for G13. Lack of notability and other reasons articles are commonly deleted at AfD are not examples of such reasons. Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The question is whether a page in the draft namespace is indeed a draft that could ever become an article. We do want to delete WP:NOTWEBHOST violations in any namespace, and draft namespace shouldn't be protected from that. (Howtos, manuals, gaming, various data dumps etc. should not be kept around based on what namespace they are in, but based on whether they have any conceivable use for the project). —Kusma (talk) 12:30, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

True. Any draft that violates any line at WP:NOT is welcome at MfD and is usually deleted there. The problem with most DraftSpace MfD nominations is that the nominator cites no WP:NOT violation. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:23, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Agree with User:Thryduulf. Very few good draftspace nominations are made at MfD. Mostly, I think it is due to enthusiastic Wikipedians trying to contribute, who don’t consider that raising unimportant issues on a formal deletion page creates more work than the original problem was worth. I.e busywork. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I disagree with User:SmokeyJoe's statement that "Very few good draftspace nominations are made at MfD." It is true that many of the draft nominations at MFD are mistaken, but proper nominations at MFD of drafts that were being tendentiously resubmitted are not uncommon. User:Thryduulf, above, says that drafts should only be deleted for three reasons, one of which is things that are actively harmful. I will agree with those categories IF it is recognized that tendentious resubmission is harmful to the project because it is a burden to the volunteer reviewers, and is often self-serving. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Very few good draftspace nominations are made at MfD.

Maybe on average one per week. That is very small for arguing for a new XforDeletion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:10, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Sending all draftspace deletion to another forum would be good for mfd in removing much busywork from mfd. However, I predict that the new forum will be unattended. Most draftspace mfd nominations would have been appropriate for WP:N/N. Consider reviving that page. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Drafts and Notability[edit]

User:WhatamIdoing says that drafts should be discussed for deletion on the same basis as articles. At least, that is what I understand they are saying. The most common reason for deletion of articles is lack of notability (where lack of reliable sources is a failure to establish notability verifiably). Does User:WhatamIdoing really mean that drafts should be deleted if they fail to establish notability? If not, what do they mean? Please explain. I think that I disagree. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:58, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I think that drafts should be deleted (or merged) if the subject is not notable. Mind the gap between "the draft fails to establish the notability of the subject by citing a sufficient number of reliable sources" and "the subject is not notable". "Establishing" notability requires editors to invest a certain amount of time and effort in locating and citing reliable sources. Not being a notable subject is a problem that cannot be solved by any amount of effort expended by Wikipedia editors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[]

How much editor effort should go into deleting worthless hopeless drafts? SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:21, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[]

If you want the least-effort deletion, then letting it rot in the draftspace until it is automatically deleted for inactivity is probably the right choice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:23, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Stale User Pages of Inactive Users[edit]

This question is about user pages of inactive users (inactive by several years), and specifically about user pages that have the nature of drafts. There are at least four kinds of user pages of long-inactive users:

• 1. Article-like pages.
• 2. Essays.
• 3. Stuff that is eligible for speedy deletion.
• 4. Other stuff, whether in sandbox pages or elsewhere in user space.

At Miscellany for Deletion we get a fair number of nominations to delete stuff in the user space of other users, active, semi-active, or inactive, and I am not always sure why the nominator was looking at it in the first place. I have written an essay, Ragpicking, that discourages looking at such stuff in the first place. However, we still get a fair number of nominations of stuff from inactive users, and some of the stuff is article-like.

This question is about article-like pages. The guidelines on user pages and stale drafts say that they may be moved to article space if they are ready for article space. They should not be moved to article space simply in order to be nominated for deletion, which wastes volunteer time. The guideline also says that draft pages may be moved to draft space, but they don't specify when. My thinking is that such pages should be moved to draft space if they do not currently satisfy verifiability and notability but have a credible claim of significance and so might be improved to be articles.

If there already is an article on a subject, then a user page can be redirected to the article, or tagged to be merged with the article. My real question has to do with stuff that isn't ready to be an article, but the topic is one that might have potential. When should these pages be moved to draft space, where they will be somewhat more visible, but will expire in six months? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:51, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• @Robert McClenon: I think different standard practices may be in place for (Base userpages, e.g. User:Username), (Primary user sandboxes, e.g. User:User/sandbox), (Other user sandboxes, e.g. User:User/sandbox2), (User article drafts, e.g. User:User/Articletitle), and things you mentioned above like User:User/ProjectThingy. As such, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer here. For example, in most cases it wouldn't be appropriate to redirect a base userpage to an article - even if it had article-like content on it, nor to move a primary sandbox that had lots of sandboxing done in to a draft about only one topic. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:59, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[]
  • User:Xaosflux - I was asking about article-like pages. I didn't mention base user pages. Your breakdown is similar to but not the same as mine. It is the drafts that I was asking about. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:53, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]
    • @Robert McClenon: sometimes new users make what looks like a draft article on their own base user page. There are certainly a few ways these can be dealt with (such as moving their base page to a subpage, a draft, or mainspace) but what I was calling out is that this wouldn't be a good example of a page to leave a redirect on. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:00, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• They're not causing anybody any trouble, why do anything about them? If there's some reason to believe they need to be deleted (socking, copyright problems, BLP problems, etc), sure. But otherwise, I don't see any reason to waste any time even thinking about them. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:08, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• I think the reason is that some people consider tidiness to be a virtue. Personally I would much rather someone displayed more obvious virtues such as honesty, but many people seem to value tidiness. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• User:RoySmith - Well, the reason why I am asking about them is that other editors ask to have them deleted at MFD for various reasons.

• Don't people have better things to do? -- RoySmith (talk) 01:14, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• I have never understood the desire to clean out inactive user pages. There is no need. My call… as long as the inactive user page does not contain something we would ask an active user to remove, don’t do anything with it. Just let it sit there gathering electronic dust. If it really bothers you, I suppose we could place some sort of note saying that the user is inactive… but even that is not necessary. Blueboar (talk) 01:36, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Non-Partisan Section Title[edit]

Let's talk about how "consensus" is being used to squashed dissenting opinions on articles relating to society/politics/political philosophies, through everything listed on the "pitfalls and and errors" subsection.

Undue weight to "reliable sources" is so disproportionate at this point that articles/sections/subsections look more like hit pieces than fairly weighted articles. None of the "reliable" sources are giving fair coverage to Donald Trump's conduct during the January 6th incident[1]. The title of this section is another example of how unfair weight is being given to one side, but not the other.

To say that I am pushing fringe theories would not be a fair assessment of my intentions. Neither would it be good faith to use Fox News as a straw man argument.[2][3] Considering the fact that all of the "independent" news outlets are no longer independent, Wikipedia and it's editors seriously need to consider expanding on what is considered to be a "reliable source". CosmicJacuzzi (talk) 06:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[]

When it comes to politics and events, our definition of neutrality amounts to presenting whatever the mainstream media and any formal academic sources say about the subject as being the primary and most important view of the subject. Obviously, it takes a while for academics to write books and peer-reviewed journal articles, so for events within the last year or so, we rely mostly on mainstream media. Following the mainstream and academic views is the definition of neutral on Wikipedia. It is explicitly against policy to treat all sides as being equally valid. I realize that this can be frustrating when people disagree with the mainstream view, but this is how it works on Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:02, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The "peer-reviewed journal articles" are a part of the mainstream media. If that wasn't the case, the examples I pointed out would exist and my point would be non-existent. It's an safe space of obvious lies, where people who disagree are labelled, yelled down, and silenced. I've seen the reprehensible behavior right here on Wikipedia. You bring it up on an Administrator's noticeboard, and a biased administrator jumps on it and just completely excuses obvious cases of outing. Followed by either of the involved administrators abusing either the sockpuppet, beating the dead horse, or fringe theories policies in order to justify a block. Want a good example of the echo chamber of lies? Take for example the "Haitian illegal immgrants 'being whipped'" incident. How that's being echoed by the White House, which is in turn being by the mainstream media. Every source that says anything to the contrary to the mainstream media is "misinformation/debunked/disputed/fake news/conspiracy theories". Whether that by journal articles by Conservative journalists, or Conservative news outlets. "Journals present the most recent research, and journal articles are written by experts, for experts."[4] All of those "experts" are leftists. If you're going to tell me I have an axe to grind, please go back to my top statement, and re-read the line about Fox news. CosmicJacuzzi (talk) 02:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I feel that your problem is not with our sourcing policies but with a degree of gullibility. Jorm (talk) 02:34, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The notion that peer-reviewed academic journals are part of the mainstream media is as bizarre as the notion that summarizing the mainstream media is a bad thing. Would you propose that we use fringe extremist media instead? Are you comfortable with the Revolutionary Communist Party and The Daily Stormer as sources for neutral encyclopedia articles? That's the path to madness and collapse. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]

oh ISIS pamflets. also really good sources ! —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:21, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I do agree with the problem sketch here. Rightwing media in the US are often fairly unreliable, leading us to exclude them and get slightly biased articles. High-quality foreign-language media may be part of the solution, as their reporting of the US is less charged. Femke (talk) 16:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Surname not found[edit]

Row and column spans[edit]

To quote Jeff Goldblum:

"Your editors were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should"

I received a request from an IP yesterday, asking for help to edit a table: [5]

The request in question, related to the monstrosity at this article: List of recurring characters in the James Bond film series. It took me about half an hour to remove an entry that should ideally have only taken 30 seconds to do. I am not completely opposed to row spans if they are used sparingly (for example, to group by year such as at Angelina_Jolie_filmography#As_actress) but they seem to have proliferated to the extent that they are a plague, making many tables that use them virtually unreadable, and even tougher to edit. They put up a significant barrier to newer editors.

Is this an issue the community would care to discuss? Betty Logan (talk) 09:18, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I'm more inclined to say it's a unique case here with

• Many columns, esp. empty cells, require horizontal scrolling as it exceeds most screens
• Many rows, otherwise alternative might be to turn columns into rows

It's difficult to read because of the long rows, as it's hard to determine which cells belong to the row. Sure the syntax is a bit more complex for table spans, but tables are also more complex to edit than rows. I'd be wary of making a judgement on the presentation primarily based off of the syntax. Ideally, the question should be what serves the readers best.—Bagumba (talk) 09:48, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Betty Logan, have you tried the table editor in the visual editor? Deleting a row or a column requires about three clicks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Adminstats Templates[edit]

Hello, is there a policy regarding the unused Adminstats templates from page one of the Unused templates report? The templates are listed from numbers 274 to 446. I'm only asking as part of my task force idea to deal with the backlog of unused templates as part of WikiProject Templates. Do admins plan on using it somewhere on their user page or subpages? Otherwise, it could cause massive disruption. Same question applies to Template:Administrators' noticeboard archives/Search and Template:Administrator review. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 15:21, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

See here, it seems that these appear to be unused but in reality are necessary anyway. Fram (talk) 15:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Adminstats templates are useful if linked to from anywhere, and can carry useful historical data. Most unused templates should be left alone: the disruption caused by deleting them is much larger than the negligible harm from keeping them around. —Kusma (talk) 15:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Got it. Does the same reason apply to the last two non-admin stats templates? --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The Search template is in use, linked from literally hundreds of pages (not having transclusions is not the same as "unused", even if they are incorrectly listed as such by some bot). The review template has been kept at TFD several times. There is no good reason to delete either. —Kusma (talk) 16:08, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Got it. Thanks. This was a big help. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:15, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Best practices for blocking[edit]

I was looking at recent threads at WP:ANEW and noticed there is still a tendency for some admins to site block when a partial block may suffice.

As an example, consider this discussion, where there seems to be a clear lack of consensus that the administrative action was optimal. To cut a long story short, two established editors reverted each other three or four times, getting cross with each other in the process, which resulted in one editor getting a site-wide 24 hour block. In this scenario, I personally would consider a quiet word first, followed by a partial block of the page in question for a similar timeframe, and only progress to site-wide if the disruption spilled out and carried onto other pages.

I recall having discussions about the effectiveness of partial blocks before, and can't remember seeing a clear and obvious consensus for them. However, the feature's been around for a number of years now, and as far as I'm aware, most administrators are comfortable with it. The blocking policy doesn't make it clear one way or the other; perhaps it would be worth adding some sort of language along similar lines to the protection policy ie: "block at the smallest scope and duration that is necessary to stop disruption". Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Ritchie333: eh I don't like it as a some sort of brightline policy statement. You know the type of vandals that only make NOTHERE disruptive edits for example, I'm not going to chase them around from namespace to namespace for example (because history and experience tells me that the only way to stop their disruption is with a site block). That being said, it does sound useful as some sort of guidance to consider... — xaosflux ^Talk 16:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

My take on partial blocks is they are of greatest utility in conjunction with wide IP range blocks. I'm loathe to site-block a /18 (or bigger!). If there's a small set of pages that are being vandalized by a roaming IP, the partial range block can be a good alternative to protecting the pages. For logged-in accounts, I find them less useful. If a person is misbehaving, it's the person we want to address, not the specific pages they're vandalizing. But, yes, they can be a useful tool and probably could be used to advantage more often. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Agree that pblocks are a good first-line control attempt for rangeblocks. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

A partial block is good way of dealing with some situations: a promotion-only SPA is one that comes to mind, where the user would thus be prevented from further inappropriate editing but left free to make useful edits elsewhere in the project. But in a situation such as this it would not be a good choice – there's no reason to believe that the same behaviour won't continue on another page, and no reason why the editor should not continue to edit that page as long as there's no further edit-warring. I don't see that any of this needs to be made policy. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Have we gathered any statistics on the effectiveness of partial vs. total blocks for registered editors? My knee-jerk reaction is that if an editor has proven untrustworthy in one area then that editor is likely to be untrustworthy in all areas, so a total block would be better. But I'm willing to be shown otherwise by hard evidence. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:39, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

BTW, I've suggested before that a killer feature would be partial blocks based on categories, i.e. "block a.b.c.d/16 from any page (transitively) in Category:Foo". Unfortunately, I suspect that would be very expensive to implement. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:55, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@RoySmith: phab:T190349 is about this, it was declined for a host of reasons. One of which is that it could mean that pretty much anyone (even an IP) could stop such a category p-blocked user from editing, just by adding that category to pages. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:14, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The fact that it's impractical, and fatally flawed, does not detract from the fact that it would be a killer feature :-) -- RoySmith (talk) 21:17, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Agree with the rule of thumb that a the smallest effective sanction is often best (eg. a p-block, a semi-protection). Disagree that a full-block/p-block criteria needs codifying: there's too many variables in each case for such a "bright line rule" to be of value. If any full block seems overly heavy-handed it can always be reviewed via talkpage discussion or at AN. The relative lack of such reviews (other than the single incident linked above) suggests this isn't presently an issue requiring policy change. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I agree with most of those above, and I say that as possibly the least block-happy of all the regular admins. The main use case for partial blocks is for dealing with problematic IP ranges without the side-effect of rendering significant numbers of innocent editors, who happen to share the IP range, unable to edit Wikipedia. I find it hard to imagine the circumstance in which we trust a single, named, individual enough to allow them to edit Wikipedia, but want to prevent them from editing a particular page; if there's clear consensus that someone should stay off a particular page, they're warned to stay off that page, yet they continue to edit that page, then we should be blocking them site-wide since they're obviously untrustworthy and highly likely to cause problems elsewhere. ‑ Iridescent 19:20, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Iridescent: I've never placed a partial block that way. My canonical example is where two established editors lose their heads a bit and go over 3RR, but have been around long enough to be trustworthy. As for, "I find it hard to imagine the circumstance in which we trust a single, named, individual enough to allow them to edit Wikipedia, but want to prevent them from editing a particular page", Eric Corbett would have been an obvious example. I think you're forgetting that there are certain classes of editors who will cause a drama explosion if they get site blocked. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:11, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I can't see how Eric Corbett is at all relevant to this discussion; if anything, he's an example of why partial blocks wouldn't be of any use when it comes to established editors as opposed to problematic IP ranges. When Eric was actually given a specific topic ban from a particular page he stuck to it faithfully, and if he hadn't stuck to it faithfully it would have been perfectly fair reason to block him sitewide as unwilling to follow our rules. The actual problem when it came to Eric was that he got too closely invested in articles on which he'd worked and consequently would get in arguments when people disagreed with him; as such, the only way partial blocks would have been effective in his case would have been if he'd been blocked from editing any topic in which he'd shown an interest, which would obviously have been pointless since it would have beed a de facto siteban. The existing topic ban process is one which actually works fairly well; if someone complies with their topic ban then the problem is solved, and if they can't comply with it then it's a clear indicator that they're likely to prove a problematic editor. Except in the very few cases where someone is genuinely only causing problems on a single page, partial blocks are unlikely to be much use; most POV-pushers and spammers are interested in a topic, not a single page, and absent the ability to partial-block from categories or from adding or removing keywords a partial block from a single page just means the problem behavior moves somewhere else. ‑ Iridescent 10:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

"When Eric was actually given a specific topic ban from a particular page he stuck to it faithfully" Perhaps in your view, he did, but I recall two arbitration cases where there was a serious disagreement amongst administrators about a) whether or not Eric violated a Gender Gap Task Force topic ban and b) whether or not he should be site blocked for it. Two of the biggest drama time wasters on Wikipedia of all time. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:45, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

How would partial blocks have helped in those cases, which were about talkpage interactions? If he'd had a partial block imposed rather than a topic ban, the partial block would have been from WP:Gender Gap Task Force, but since that wasn't the page on which the edits in question took place it would have had no impact—if anything, it would have made "This wasn't the page from which I was blocked so I was entitled to make these edits" a defense and led to even more of an argument. (I'm not sure if you're aware, but I'm fairly certain I've had more dealings with Eric than any other editor in Wikipedia's history—between his two accounts, he's made more than 1000 posts to my talk page and I've made over 700 to his—and I can say with near-certainty that most of his blocks were the result of comments made on his own talkpage. Since we obviously can't block someone from editing their own talkpage, partial blocks would have been of no help at all.) ‑ Iridescent 18:01, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I used it this morning to block a user who was editing their own article and repeatedly running afoul of the COI policy and other guidelines and policies. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 09:21, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@HighInBC, had that editor (who was editing their own article and repeatedly running afoul of COI policy) actually done significant productive editing on other topics? The issue I've seen with the vast majority of COI editors is that it's not just one topic they've got a COI with among 1000 they've edited productively. It's that all their edits are on those COI articles. —valereee (talk) 23:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

A valid point, they have performed exactly zero edits outside the subject of themselves. This is why I am keeping a close eye on them and am very much ready to administer a WP:NOTHERE sitewide block if they continue being disruptive. Arguably I could have jumped straight to that, but sometimes - just sometimes, they become productive in other areas. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:39, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

This issue goes back to before partial blocks were available. I suggested several times over the years that in situations of isolated edit-warring or 3RR violations ("isolated" meaning good-faith editors without a long history of edit-warring), rather than block for 24h or 48h, wouldn't it be better just to warn the offending editor(s) off that page for a few days? Most editors would comply, especially if told that a site-wide block would follow if it did not, and the editor could go on to make good contributions on other pages rather than stepping away from the project altogether for however many days. I never got anywhere with these proposals; I think the most common argument against them was that the supposed deterrent effect of the bright-line 3RR rule would be lost.

Partial-blocking from the page, as opposed to giving a typed (but enforceable) warning, has the advantages that compliance is enforced, that there is no need for the admin to monitor for compliance, and that there is a written record in the event the user's edit-warring develops into a habit. It has the disadvantage of a scarlet-letter effect of an entry in the block-log, perhaps producing greater resentment. In any event, I'd still rather see either of these mechanisms favored over a site-wide block in cases involving good-faith editors who get caught up in the moment or in strength of feeling on an issue and lose track of their reverts.

I've written before that our collective "failure to take stock of dispute-resolution successes and failures has struck me for years as a project-wide myopia. In the [then] 13½ years of English Wikipedia there have been, in round numbers, a billion edit-wars, yet no one knows whether most edit-wars get resolved by civil discussion reaching a consensus on the optimal wording, or by one side's giving up and wandering away (or sometimes by everyone's ultimately losing interest and wandering away)." It's hard to figure out what the optimal sanctions approach might be without that information. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

But again, cases where the issue is genuinely confined to a single page are atypical. If someone is causing problems on Cheese, then a partial block from that page will probably just mean they move on to Brie, Mozzarella etc. In the absence of any mechanism to partial-block someone from Category:Cheese, we'd have to block them individually from pages, which would make their block log very long and cause a significant scarlet letter effect. On the other hand "You are topic banned from cheese, broadly construed" not only makes it clear that it's the conduct that's the problem not the page on which that conduct happens, it means we can immediately assess whether this is someone who's willing to work collabiratively or not. Blocking—whether partial or full—should be a last resort, not a first resort.

(If I ruled Wikipedia, I'd make minor blocks—partial or full—drop off the block log after a couple of months with no further problems, to avoid the Mark of Cain effect. We have the technical ability to do this already, but it would be a significant cultural change. In the absence of being able to clean block logs, we need to recognize that what seems from the admin perspective to be a minor technical action is essentially giving the editor in question a permanent and publicly visible criminal record which will affect all their subsequent interactions with other editors.) ‑ Iridescent 08:18, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (New Zealand) has an RFC[edit]

Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (New Zealand) has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. --Spekkios (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Bolding alternate titles[edit]

Further comments to clarify the situation at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section#Bolding alternate titles would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:46, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[]

RFC on regnal names in article titles[edit]

An RFC is open at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) regarding article naming conventions for (European) monarchs. If you would like to participate in the discussion, please comment on that page. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:51, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Don't move pages[edit]

I would like to pay attention to the problem with the moving of articles. Don't move pages if you are not going to update name in the lead and infobox (if exist) and Wikidata page. Don't do chaos. How many times yet they will mve articles without updating leads, infoboxes and Wikidata pages? Eurohunter (talk) 19:02, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[]

In the case that you link the change of name in the lead leads to it having a different meaning in that context, so I will revert you. Rather than say "don't move pages" you should think about what you are doing. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Eurohunter:- Hello, what exactly is the policy concern here? Kind regards, PinkElixir (talk) 01:49, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@PinkElixir: If above situation exist then it's problem with policy. Eurohunter (talk) 16:31, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Typesetters' quotation terminology[edit]

Important note: please DO NOT confuse this subject with the subject on whether TQ should be used in certain Wikipedia articles.

I think we need some discussion about how to refer to typesetters' quotation. The only article that says anything about it is Quotation marks in English. It refers to it by the common name "American style". (See WP:LQUOTE for what I'm talking about.) Georgia guy (talk) 11:32, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Sorry but I'm not clear what you're asking, and nor I suspect is anyone else. Are you asking whether we should continue to use the phrase "American style" or call it something else? If there's only one article on which the topic arises, why do we need a site-wide discussion rather than just a question on that article's talkpage? ‑ Iridescent 19:11, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The essay I linked to says "typesetters' quotation" (TQ) is the correct name. Georgia guy (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

"Essay" being the key word there—all that demonstrates is that whoever happened to write that essay thinks "typesetters' quotation" is the correct name, not that it's some kind of immutable truth. For the second time, if this only affects a single article why does it need a site-wide discussion rather than just a question on that article's talk page? ‑ Iridescent 19:23, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

It doesn't appear there's been any recent discussion of this at the article talk page, and I agree that's the best place to begin the conversation. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:27, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Talk pages don't get much attention if the articles are obscure. I felt like putting it here because it gets more attention. Georgia guy (talk) 19:32, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

This page is not for seeking additional attention to content disputes. I recommend withdrawing. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Georgia guy: this section of the village pump is used to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines. - what policy or guideline are referring to, and what exactly are you proposing be created or changed in such? — xaosflux ^Talk 14:59, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

User:Xaosflux, I'm trying to propose a policy that the rule that a comma or period adjacent to a closing quotation mark must always precede the closing quotation mark must be referred to as "typesetters' quotation" and not as "American style". Georgia guy (talk) 15:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Thank you for clarifying. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• So, I oppose creating a policy that would bar essay or guideline editors from using this term. This is extreme instruction creep and I don't see any project-wide problems that such a new policy would be necessary for. If there is a problem with a specific essay, go through the normal BRD and dispute resolution processes. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:26, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

  And since it is also referenced, I strongly oppose any policy that would bar article editors from using such a term in encyclopedic articles - standard article content rules, including using common speech and terms from reliable sources should continue to be sufficient. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

This has got to be the most pure example of painting the bicycle shed I've seen in a very long time. This is not an issue, and certainly not an issue requiring the creation of a policy mandating a particular label. Putting such a triviality here because of a desire for attention to a personal hobby-horse is not productive. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:06, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• @Georgia guy: Can you please articulate exactly what your concern is with referring to TQ by its American name? What is the rationale behind your proposed policy change for the naming convention? I am inclined to oppose simply because I can't think of any real need for such a specific and seemingly trivial point, but I am curious to hear what your underlying thoughts are. Particularly, if I am missing other WP policies or guidelines that support your position, please let me know. Kind regards, PinkElixir (talk) 01:36, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

  Calling it "American style" will make it look as if (to people familiar with Wikipedia's MOS and when to use each English variant) it make sense to use TQ in articles related specifically to the United States (such as New York City) and LQ in articles specifically related to other countries (such as London,) finding it surprising that Wikipedia's MOS says to always use LQ and never TQ. Georgia guy (talk) 10:09, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Georgia guy: I do hear what you're saying, and I would still oppose. I have not seen instances of people taking the term "American style" so literally, so I'm not convinced there is a pressing need here. For what it's worth, I also think you might be conflating several concerns here, given the last part of your sentence above; you seem to be in favor of using TQ over LQ, which is a different proposal, and perhaps worth a separate section/discussion if you feel so inclined. Kind regards, PinkElixir (talk) 14:47, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I support LQ in all articles. I support TQ be referred to as such whenever it is mentioned and not as "American style". Georgia guy (talk) 14:53, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Georgia guy:, regardless of what you support, you have yet to identify an issue which requires a policy change. Please read the page on what policies and guidelines are supposed to accomplish. Minor typographical inconsistencies are not generally regarded as issues that require such a directive. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:03, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

User:Eggishorn, the problem I have is that it is always referred to as "American style" in all Wikipedia articles that mention it. Is there a reason here?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:16, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I would guess the "reason" is that it's an alternative terminology to your preferred one. Remember that Wikipedia is a widely-distributed project with (at last count) >125,000 authors and a level of consistency displayed by, say Encyclopedia Britannica is neither possible nor desired. Let me ask you a question in return: Where and how do you think the readers' comprehension of one single article in this project is negatively impacted by this issue? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:22, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The fact that only one article mentions it is only true in practice. It would be equally valid to apply this to a biographical article saying something like "Smith supports American style always be used." Georgia guy (talk) 15:30, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

That doesn't answer the question, Georgia guy. I sincerely doubt that there is a single article in this project that describes the quotation punctuation preferences of any notable person with any reliable source. Again: In what main space article that currently exists is readers' comprehension limited by this? As the person proposing a new policy, you should be able to justify it on more than personal preference. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I justify it by the essay I linked to when I started this section; it taught me the term. It says that it's a misconception that it's "American style". Georgia guy (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

In other words, you can't justify it and this should be closed. An essay is just that: an essay. It is not policy, it is not a guideline, it is not controlling over anything whatsoever. It is certainly not a mainspace article and there is no way that the average reader will have anything impacted by this. I would close this but I'm obviously involved at this point. You should withdraw the request or close/collapse this section yourself. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:10, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Should previously linked Wikipedia articles be separated?[edit]

I'm not sure this is the right place, but since this concerns the English Wikipedia too, I thought it was worth mentioning here: wikidata:Wikidata:Requests for comment/Should previously linked Wikipedia articles be separated?. Wikidata items names are more precise than Wikipedia articles names. So should Wikipedia articles about a subject, which were all previously linked together, be split into two different but closely related Wikidata items? The RedBurn (ϕ) 15:15, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

We don't care what Wikidata does here. We can use {{interwiki extra}} if needed. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:23, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

What Pppery said. Wikidata is a completely separate site; we don't care about what they do any more than we care about the policies of the Star Trek Fan Wiki. ‑ Iridescent 19:12, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The thing is that changing those links on Wikidata does impact Wikipedia, so we should care. Wikidata replaced interwiki article links. Using {{interwiki extra}} doesn't prevent Wikidata editors from unlinking Wikipedia articles without us noticing. The RedBurn (ϕ) 10:09, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

RedBurn, please explain in more detail (and avoid technical terminology if possible). What do you mean by “unlink”, and how can editing something on Wikidata unlink our articles without us noticing? Blueboar (talk) 12:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

It's explained in Help:Interlanguage links. The links used to be inside the articles (Local links), so removing a link was visible in the article edit history. Now that those links are on Wikidata, the only way to know about a link change is to watch the Wikidata item edit history. This happens regularly because Wikidata editors seem to insist on only linking exactly identical articles, not just articles about the same subject. It seems that they consider that Wikipedia's purpose is to serve Wikidata (by providing articles about a Wikidata item), not the other way. The RedBurn (ϕ) 15:56, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

So, the example at Wikidata is for Blood pressure and Arterial blood pressure, two slightly different but closely related concepts which can most easily be discussed in one article, as has been done by at first glance all Wikipedia languages, plus all or nearly all sources. At enwiki, A redirects to B, and at frwiki, B redirects to A. In the pre-Wikidata days, the interwiki links joined the two (as is correct). But since Wikidata insists that 1. there should be two Wikidata items, and 2. redirects can't have Wikidata items linked, the frwiki article is no longer linked from the enwiki article, and vice versa. And the limited input at the Wikidata discussion so far insists that this is a good thing... Fram (talk) 16:16, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

For what it's worth, Wikidata does not prohibit sitelinks to redirects (although the software makes them annoyingly hard to add). The rest seems to be correct. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Ok, if I am understanding correctly, the issue relates purely to linking in the sidebar (in desktop mode), where we note that there is an article at one of the other language WPs about the same topic. yes? Blueboar (talk) 18:07, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I didn't know interwiki links were specific to desktop mode, but yes you do understand correctly. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I think Blueboar was saying that they're in the sidebar in desktop mode. The RedBurn (ϕ) 10:41, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Yes… And as far as I know, they don’t show up (at all) in mobile view. So in both modes, it isn’t something that the average reader/editor pays a lot of attention to. Because they are “off to the side”, the interlanguage links are not seen as being “part of the article” in the same way as article text or infoboxes are… so are low priority for a lot of editors. Blueboar (talk) 12:47, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Those links exist in the mobile site. They're at the top of the page, about a half-inch underneath the article title, under the word "Languages". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:37, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Huh? Ooooh… so THAT’S what the icon of the little man dancing around a capital letter A does. I never bothered to click on that icon before. Blueboar (talk) 23:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

If Wikidata editors are willing to take the time to add redirects to every single article previously linked before they move some of them to a different item, I'm probably OK with them separating them. The RedBurn (ϕ) 10:44, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

If wikidata insists on doing this, then its probably time to bring interwiki links back under ENWP's control and start using local links again. (Which is basically what MisterSynergy has indicated at the above discussion on wikidata). Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:15, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Or, as I suggested above, use {{interwiki extra}} to display interwiki links from two different items on the same article. I'm by no means a fan of Wikidata, but that sounds like an overreaction. For what it's worth, I did add the template to Blood pressure, which now displays the French interwiki. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[]

If that solution is deemed OK, maybe Wikidata editors should add that template to all the articles previously linked when they move some of them to different items? Wikipedia editors shouldn't have to clean up the mess of Wikidata editors in my opinion. And Wikipedia editors shouldn't have to keep track of those "unlinking events". I think this hurts Wikipedia as a whole by making it harder to find content in different languages (to read or translate). The RedBurn (ϕ) 10:40, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Each language variant of Wikipedia should be able to choose its own article topics. Wikidata should facilitate linking analogous topics, whether or not the articles are exact equivalents of each other. isaacl (talk) 23:50, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I think this is the same problem I asked about a while ago at which I was referred to wikidata:WD:Bonnie and Clyde. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:03, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

The Bonnie and Clyde problem is a specific case that existed before Wikidata. Here it's about articles which were linked (one to one) before Wikidata but which got separated by Wikidata editors. The RedBurn (ϕ) 09:04, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Notability of Films About to Be Released[edit]

There is discussion in progress at the film notability guideline talk page about the notability criteria for films that have begun or completed production (principal photography or animation} and have not yet been released. There are two very different viewpoints as to how the future film guideline is and should be interpreted. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:43, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Draftify as an Action at AFD[edit]

In Articles for Deletion discussions, editors sometimes !vote to Draftify the article, especially if the main concern is that it is too soon; and sometimes the close is Draftify. However, an editor has pointed out that the instructions for AFD do not include Draftify as one of the possible actions. So I think that my questions here are:

• 1. Is Draftify a valid action at AFD? (I think it should be.)
• 2. Should the instructions for AFD be clarified? (I think it should be added to Merge, Redirect, etc.)
• 3. Is this something that I should take to the Articles for Deletion talk page? (What is the venue to discuss this?)

Robert McClenon (talk) 16:35, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Wouldn't life be so much easier if we simply did away with draft space and developed articles in main space, per the original idea of a wiki, and deleted them if their subjects were shown not to be notable by proper examination at AfD, rather than the evidence-free assertions that we see there all the time? Nearly every day I seem to see a problem or question that would simply not exist without the abomination of draft space. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:24, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I see no reason not to add drafting (either to Draft: or user space) as an option for an AFD close. I actually don't think that one should read the list of actions listed at AFD as the only possible allowed set of actions possible (per WP:BURO), just that they are the most common options for what an AFD close can be (and particularly for non-admin closures), and including drafting them would be reasonable. --Masem (t) 18:36, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Is removing the draftspace on the table in this discussion? All of you folks know this, but before the creation of draftspace the outcome choice was previously "Userfy" to user sandbox, which gave one editor a sort of shepherding responsibility, but was a bit harder to extinguish if misused. The draftspace system is less personal and therefore (IMHO) easier to manage if things go south. I agree "Draftify" should be considered a valid action and as part of the instructions as proposed. BusterD (talk) 19:05, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

My call… There is no single “right answer”. Sometimes Draftspace is the best option, sometimes Userspace is the best option. Both are legitimate options, and both have drawbacks. Ask; which (if either) will best result in a viable article? A lot depends on the specific editors involved. Blueboar (talk) 19:29, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

I think this would be an excellent addition. I don't think there is any reasonable possibility of draftspace going anywhere, so the next step is to figure out how to use it properly. BD2412 T 20:17, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• Regarding I actually don't think that one should read the list of actions listed at AFD as the only possible allowed set of actions possible, that's completely correct. In fact, WP:DISCUSSAFD says, e. g., "Keep", "Delete", "Merge", "Redirect", or other view.. People sometimes come up with "other" things which make a lot of sense. I've seen things like, "This is clearly not suitable for wikipedia, but it's a nice piece of writing anyway and would be very welcome at XYZ fan wiki". It's important that we leave the instruction flexible enough to allow for things like that. The question, "Is Draftify a valid action at AFD" is a little backwards. Draftify is in common use, and a page like WP:AFD is mostly there to codify common practice, so it makes sense to update the instructions to match what's actually going on. WT:AFD is a better place to discuss this, so my suggestion is to move this there (you can use {{Moved discussion to}} to leave a pointer behind) and see how people react. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:50, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Add it to the instructions, as a suggested consideration. Note that the suggested !vote terms are not to be read as limiting. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Moved to AFD talk page

• • Well, I recall at one AFD, that may still be open, one editor said that Draftify was the wrong answer, because it wasn't in the list. But maybe that is because they thought that Keep was the right answer. And disagreement at AFD is more common than agreement. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:04, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Alternatives to Draftspace[edit]

These are questions for critics of draft space, including User:Phil Bridger. If draft space were done away with:

• 1. Where would submissions by unregistered editors go? (I know one answer, which is to stop unregistered editing, as in Brazil, but that is piling questions on.)
• 2. Where would submissions by editors who are not auto-confirmed go?
• 3. Where would submissions by paid editors go?

Just asking. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:04, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]

• I think the intuitive answer is that unregistered editors would just not be able to create articles, and the rest would go to userspace, or possibly project space. BD2412 T 00:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

1. Unregistered and un-auto-confirmed editors should not be helped to make new pages on new topics. This is advanced contributing, a new topic that no one has thought to create so far and proceeded in attempting, the chances are very high that it is not a good idea, and even if a good idea, it will probably be too difficult for an inexperienced editor. Newcomers should go to existing articles and improve existing content, for at least four days and ten edits.

3. All edits by COI editors, including paid editors, should be either on the talk page, or in draftspace. COI editors should not be editing mainspace, except for the defined exceptions such as reverting BLP vandalism, and that should be promptly reported to a noticeboard. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:33, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Technical or specialized terms[edit]

Technical or specialized terms should be briefly explained in the body of the text as well as linked to a more complete article. Rationale - the general reader may need only a simple explanation of the term for general understanding, not the complete and lengthy explanation the article linked to the term provides. Wis2fan (talk) 03:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Our existing guideline already appears to say what you want it to say (Minimize jargon, or at least explain it or tag it using {{Technical}} or {{Technical-statement}} for other editors to fix. For unavoidably technical articles, a separate introductory article (like Introduction to general relativity) may be the best solution. Avoid excessive wikilinking (linking within Wikipedia) as a substitute for parenthetic explanations such as the one in this sentence.). What change are you proposing? If you're asking us to parenthetically explain any term with which readers might be unfamiliar, I'd strongly oppose that; on a global project with readers of all ages and all levels of fluency in English, virtually every concept is going to be unfamiliar to someone. ‑ Iridescent 05:54, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

@Wis2fan, there was a discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles/Archive 15#Technical language last year. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:47, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[]

Notability (cryptocurrencies)[edit]

I would like to invite feedback on a new essay entitled Wikipedia:Notability (cryptocurrencies). It is an attempt at describing the current consensus regarding the notability of cryptocurrencies and blockchain-related projects. It has received positive feedback among editors who are active in the area, but I think it would benefit from having the feedback of the broader community. It is not intended for this essay to become a subject-specific notability guideline: rather, the idea would be to add a paragraph summarizing its main points to WP:NCORP, and keep this essay as an explanatory supplement (see also talk page discussion). Thank you. JBchrch talk 03:30, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[]