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I thought I'd compile a list of all of the current FIFA member countries (and their top divisions) which are currently missing from the list, hopefully this can serve as a point of reference so that all of these leagues may be added in the future. S.A. Julio (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Total missing: 2 (92 at initial posting)

• CONMEBOL (1 missing)
  •  Ecuador – Ecuadorian Serie A
• CONCACAF (1 missing)
  •  Honduras – Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional de Honduras

I'm not sure I understand why we need both a list of FPL leagues and also a list of leagues which aren't FPL. Clearly if a league is not on the FPL list, it's not FPL, so what's the point? --SuperJew (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not being on the list may also mean status is unknown or that references cannot be found (there are a few countries that almost certainly have fully-pro leagues, but it's been difficult to source). I think your statement is probably applicable to women's leagues though, as a league being fully-pro would be unusual and probably highlighted somewhere. Number 57 20:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would assume the main (if not only) use of this list is to know if a league is FPL in relevance to WP:NFOOTY. In that case, if a league is not on the FPL list, it doesn't matter if it's because it's confirmed as not FPL or if it's unknown, a player playing in the league wouldn't be considered notable. --SuperJew (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding it, but your point doesn't seem to make sense. If we have a player in a league whose status is currently unclear, we don't know whether they pass WP:NFOOTY or not. Number 57 20:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Number 57: Say for example there's a player who's only played in the Ecuadorian Serie A at an AfD. Would you say keep or delete based on WP:NFOOTY? --SuperJew (talk) 22:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No-one would be able to !vote either way on the basis of WP:NFOOTY because we don't know the league's professional status. Number 57 22:26, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If only the verified fully professional leagues were included, that would imply all other leagues missing from the list are not fully professional, which isn't necessarily true. Having two lists is helpful in knowing which leagues are still undetermined. S.A. Julio (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So what's going on with the Ecuadorian Serie A, is it a FPL? I want to know if I can create a page for a player. Cam (talk) 11:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on this guideline, no. However that doesn't mean an article can't be produced if you can cite sufficient third party coverage to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 09:43, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't say, that a player has to be a pro (in most league in Europe a player can make an apperance even if he is not a pro, eg a junior). It says that only professional contracts can be signed. There is no such thing as an "amateur contract" in slovenian first league, all contract listed in the pdf are professional contracts. That is the vast majority of players in the league. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 10:35, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I've always scratched my head on why it's so difficult to find Honduran and especially Costa Rican references about profesionality (one way or another). And watching such teams play, and knowing that they are televised internationally, I've scratched my head on how the top league isn't fully professional. Someone recently brought this 2016 reference] about the Costa Rican Liga FPD to my attention. I'm told that these are monthly salaries, and the minimum reported is equivalent to that of an average rural wage. But there's only 4 teams here, I don't really know how far down the depth the minimum salary is, etc. But it's the best information one way or another I've seen. I'm not providing a recommendation - just passing on what I've seen. Nfitz (talk) 01:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a heads up, Costa Rica was added to fully-pro list (along with their second division) a month ago, although there was no consensus reached here on talk page. Not sure how good is the provided reference since I don't know Spanish. It looks like official regulations for 2019 domestic leagues.--BlameRuiner (talk) 07:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have no idea where the Segunda Division even came from, considering the source is just the UNAFUT statutes, which only says that the clubs and players and staff of the first division are professional (without confirming fully pro) and literally does not mention the Segunda at all. Costa Rica has a strong league though and picking a couple redlinked players on Saprissa it takes a couple Google pages to confirm (thanks transfermarkt) but the top of the league at least should all pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 07:50, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone with the time and knowledge of the Spanish language, there is a lot of details on the Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional de Honduras website - a list of notes from the president, which may give clarification can be found here - and even better, a list of league regulations can be found here. The Honduran league is often referred to as professional in Honduran media,^[1][2][3] though I don't know if this is enough to grant it a place on the list. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 10:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further to this, this document confirms the professional status of the league:

ARTÍCULO 14.-
Los Clubes Afiliados se obligan a:
...
6) Celebrar contratos por escrito en el formato autorizado por la LIGA debiendo
ser su contenido impreso con todos y cada uno de sus jugadores, cuerpo
técnico, los cuales deberán ser registrados obligatoriamente en la Secretaría de
la Liga. Requisitos que están regulados en el Reglamento de Registro de
Jugadores y Cuerpos Técnicos de la Liga Nacional de Futbol Profesional.

A rough Google translation tells us that all affiliated clubs in the league must enter into written contracts with each and every one of your players, technical bodies, which must be registered with the secretary of the league. If this isn't enough to confirm professional status, I don't know what is. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 10:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quick ping to those involved to get this pushed through quicker: @S.A. Julio: @SuperJew: @Number 57: @Fenix down: @Nfitz: @BlameRuiner: @SportingFlyer: Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 11:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That would confirm professional status, User:Davidlofgren1996. It wouldn't confirm fully-professional status. The difference is, can the entire squad (or at least the top 20 or so players) fully support themselves playing football, or are they just semi-professional (which is still professional). A good question, is what is the 20th player paid, on the lowest-paid team in the league , as there's always going to be an exception or something. I've no doubt that the Motagua, Olimpia, and Marathóns are going to be fully professional - and all their players receive no end of media coverage. But what of Honduras Progreso? My gut feel is that they are ... but sadly we need more than my gut. Nfitz (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: I believe this source would cover that. Article 3 states (roughly) that "The professional player must consider playing soccer a way of life." (El jugador Profesional debe considerar la práctica del fútbol como medio de vida). This says to me that it would have to be their only source of income, as this document is specifically relating to contracts. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 17:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand this form of Spanish, and while your translation is correct, I read this more as "you can't play people as players who aren't players." I'd like some salary levels before I draw any conclusions, but that's not the worst rule. SportingFlyer T·C 18:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SportingFlyer: Hmm I see your point, but I think besides the top European leagues, average player salaries will be very hard to come by. So far I've managed to find this source which states the Honduran players at the 2014 World Cup earned an average yearly wage of £339,498, with 11 out of the 23 players playing in Honduras. With the Honduran national salary being around £10,931 a year^[4], it's almost guaranteed that these players are earning a considerable amount more than that.

Another source is this, a news article from 2009 claiming that Deportes Savio owed a player by the name of Lenin Suárez 38,000 lempiras (£1222.73^[5]) as a monthly wage. This would amount to a yearly wage of just over £14,750, putting his earnings above the national average.

Finally, this source, again from 2009, is about a former Honduran league player Allan Lalín, who was asking for $8000 a month. As a forward who had scored 13 in 57 for his club, he doesn't strike me as the best player in the league, but I think this gives a good range for a decent player. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 19:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I kind of agree with Nfitz here, if there are fully professional leagues in Central America, Honduras is morelikely than others to be one of them, but im not seeing confirmation of that here. What I am seeing is quotes indicating a desire for the league to be professional in spirit and attitude, not necessarily fully-professional in terms of salaries. I'd also be wary of drawing conclusions on a league based on one players reported salary demands. As mentioned earlier, we need to see some reporting on the level of salaries across the league. Fenix down (talk) 07:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: @Fenix down: Okay, I have had a look and I have found a few articles that may shed some light on salaries for footballers in Honduras:

1) This article from El Heraldo Honduras is an interview with a former footballer, who has switched to a legal profession. The article states that (rough translation) "In Honduras, it is estimated that no less than a thousand soccer players in different categories play "professionally" (that is, they live on it), with those from Division A (LNP) being the most privileged to have full salaries and dedicate themselves exclusively to it." To me, this clears up any confusion over whether the league is fully professional in terms of spirit and attitude or in terms of salaries.

2) This article from Diari Mes seems to claim that the average salary of a second division side is 77,500 euros(?). I'm not sure if it means lempiras when it says Euros, but besides that point, it states (rough translation) "Thus, the cost of a staff of 25 men where all of them had exceeded 23 years and were limited to the minimum wage established by the LFP would exceed 900,000 euros. The agreement that regulates working conditions in professional football activity establishes a maximum working time of 7 hours a day for players, who have the right to use a full month of vacation with at least 21 days that "they enjoy continued form »." From what I can gather, this seems to imply that the second division also operates at a certain level of professionalism.

3) This source from Vavel claims that "The professional teams in Central America do not give figures of the players' salary, in some cases it is for security in countries such as Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala." This to me implies that it is a salary better than the national average, and the protection is from people looking to steal from them. Even better, it goes on to say "The average salary in the Honduran League is $ 1,800 to $ 18,000". (I am presuming this is monthly, as the next sentence describes the Guatemalan captain's salary as monthly). This would be a minimum of $21,600 and a maximum of $216,000 a year. Both are above the £10,931 average yearly wage cited above. The source also confirms that "All the leagues in Central America have a professional profile, even that of Nicaragua."

I hope this is enough evidence to support my claim. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 21:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work. I've been looking for references like that on and off for years! That's more than enough for Honduras as far as I'm concerned. Does anyone object? Nfitz (talk) 21:22, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: It’s been just over a week now, safe to say there’s no objections? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 11:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure ... be bold and add it to the list, with the references. Nfitz (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Although the third level of Italian football was changed from semi-professionalism to professionalism in 1978, it appears that over the past few seasons, and particularly in the 2019–20 season, the league is again functioning as a semi-professional league. Contrasti magazine has a detailed article about the challenges facing Serie C, with several clubs dissolving or withdrawing from the league as club revenues have been insufficient to meet the mandated 26,000-euro minimum player salary. If clubs are unable to pay their player salaries and are dissolving to avoid their responsibility, can we really say this league is still fully-pro? The Contrasti article cites league leadership and club chairmen that are pushing to officially return to semi-professionalism for Serie C. Should we update the FPL list to show Serie C as fully-pro from 1978–2019? Jogurney (talk) 20:27, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• This never got responded to, but if teams are dissolving to leave Serie C because of their professionalism requirements, that means it's still professional until otherwise noted. SportingFlyer T·C 16:38, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• The Serie C is widely known as the "third level of professional football in Italy", or the "lowest professional league", or something of the sort. Many reliable sources (Sky Sport, Sport Piacenza, Repubblica, Goal) agree that Italy has three professional leagues: Serie A, B, and C. Also, the official name of the body that governs the Serie C, Lega Pro, is "Lega Italiana Calcio Professionistico" (Italian League Professional Football) (Lega Pro). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 17:22, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Making a case here that either the USL Championship should be removed from the list of fully professional leagues, or the term "fully professional" should be revised. Even though the USL Championship is the second-highest league in the US, it does not fit the current criteria for "fully professional". USL Championship teams sign players to "Academy Contracts" in which players are not paid so that they can keep their college eligibility. Here are a couple of examples: Sacramento Republic FC, Tampa Bay Rowdies, Charlotte Independence, Tulsa FC LamBiosInc (talk) 04:32, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the answer but the 2019 Soccer Today article says, "Typically, USL teams are allowed to roster a maximum of five young players who are on Academy contracts on their game-day roster, although very rarely does this happen." If these clubs are now allowed to use players on academy contracts and regularly do so (the part which seems unclear to me), it does call into question the full-time professionalism of the league. I guess the other question is whether we should treat the entire league as non-fully-pro if a club or two rely on using amateur players regularly. I think we need to do some research to get to the bottom of it. Jogurney (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are these limited number of Academy players any different, really, to youth players playing for Premier League teams? GiantSnowman 21:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stepping in here. Yes, you are correct. These limited academy players are no different to youth players playing for Premier League teams. Difference is, besides some players in the Premier League maybe earning 500 a week max as a youth player playing the odd game or two, these USL academy guys are paid nothing BUT only because that is the only way we can play them without these players losing eligibility for college soccer scholarships (if you are paid a cent, you don't get a scholarship). These are special case players and don't constitute the majority at all. In fact, you go through the stats of the 2019 season, barely any USL Championship side, that wasn't a II team, played guys younger than 20 years of age and all those players were earning full-time salaries. For the II teams, you would get maybe 5-7 at a time under the age of 19. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:07, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is an article from The Athletic dated August 2018 with a few interesting points in regard to this matter. It is a subscription service, but I will directly paste a few key points from the article.[1]

Quote:

After going unsigned after the 2016 MLS SuperDraft, defender Tyler David signed with the USL’s Saint Louis FC, where he saw how the team attempted to keep costs low.

“My second year there, Saint Louis was still looking for players when the season started,” said David, who is now playing in Finland. He said the club offered lodging to every player, and would sometimes pay players from its coaching budget. “I know of some teams who would sign goalkeepers from within their market and pay them $250 a month. They’d end up living at home or with their own friends, but it was a much cheaper choice than signing three true goalkeeping options.”

According to one former USL general manager, salaries can be even stingier.

“There are players on rosters that are playing for a place to live,” he said. “These guys are being paid room and board but earning no income on top of that. They’re squad players—the guys filling out numbers. In fairness, those contracts include bonuses for playing time.”

Signing with these teams can mean getting a foot in the door with no other financial benefit. Teams like Reno 1868 sign players for nothing beyond room and board and the hope of earning cash bonuses.

“We have guys in Reno that are earning zero-dollar contracts,” (Patrick McCabe of Stellar Group) said. “They have bonuses, and we just had one player flipped into a better deal that’s above market value next year. Every situation is a little bit different, but guys are willing to take the hit to play in Reno because it’s a good team.”

Players across the USL confirmed to The Athletic that some of their teammates drive for ride-sharing companies, which sometimes means working past midnight after a game or showing up exhausted for training the following day.

“I drove Uber and Lyft every single day in the offseason,” David said. “It kept me busy and out of trouble, which helps between games. I love it—it’s a really easy way to earn money.”

In this one section, the article written by Jeff Rueter claims USL pays players under the poverty line, that players have secondary sources of income (Ride share driving), and some players are getting signed for "zero dollar contracts". The credibility of both Rueter and the publication itself should allow for the inclusion of a anonymous source, especially considering a player is named in the story as well.

Quote:

The insecurity of low monthly wages can be compounded by the fact that only about 30 percent of teams—according to estimates by both a former USL general manager and an agent—pay their players on a 12-month schedule. Most teams pay only from the start of training camp to the final day of the season. The majority of players are on one-year contracts, which means they will often begin the following season as unpaid trialists, leaving a four-month period without payment.

“The first year of my contract was an eight-month deal,” David said. “Apparently, I hadn’t read that close enough, but it wasn’t brought up in negotiations. I was surprised when I stopped getting checks in mid-September, after we were eliminated. In my option year, my salary went up after performance incentives. Rather than raise how much each check was, we renegotiated to a ten-month deal with the same weekly wage and bonuses. It ran through the end of November, and that was a massive improvement from the eight-month deal.”

This is the last part I'll quote so I don't give an entire article away for free, but previous definitions for "fully professional" have brought up full-year salaries vs. season-by-season pay. USL teams, both reserve and independent, seem to be skirting this line. There seems to be enough here and in other sources to show the league, at least at the USL Championship level, isn't following the "fully professional" standard set by this project. Appreciation to ArsenalFan700 for helping me retrieve this article. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 17:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Wondering how the latest news released from the USL Players Association themselves also affects how "fully pro" USL Championship is. See the following two articles which both share the direct USLPA statement within as well:

https://www.frontrowsoccer.com/2020/05/19/counter-proposal-usl-players-association-throws-it-back-to-the-league/

https://abc11.com/coronavirus-north-carolina-fc-usl-nc/6197630/

Key Takeways per the USLPA document itself

• Many USL Players earn less than a livable wage
• Mention of the league being "unstable for decades" - only noting this since same argument was used repeatedly against NISA league (I don't think this should be a valid argument as this pandemic has shown that even the top world leagues can be unstable...
• Ask for a minimum salary of $20k which one can clearly determine to mean that there are players below this currently. The U.S Poverty line is currently $12,760^[6] and federal minimum wage gets you about $15k per year^[7]. Considering many teams are in larger cities and markets I would think this walks a very thin line of what is "Fully pro" and what isnt...

In closing all I want to add is that I am not necessarily advocating for USL to be removed as "Fully Pro" especially as the U.S.A's second division; but want to highlight the flawed system of "Fully Pro" and "Not Fully Pro" as in worldwide football the finances amongst clubs and leagues are too varied. There are non-league teams where players make more than League Two or League One players! I will open a separate talk page to discuss updating or "repealing" the Fully/Not Fully Pro distinction. Futbol10p 13:30, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think the evidence presented shows that USL's current status as it pertains to the project's current scope of "fully professional" should be discussed. But burning down the system isn't something we should look at right now. So if we can move past that last part and continue discussions, I feel that would be best. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 01:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I found it a bit od to see that the Turkish second tier was not considered fully professional, we're talking about one of the top 10 European club football countries... Actually the 4 first Turkish leagues are called professional, both here and on the Turkish WP, as it can be seen in several sources: [2], [3], [4] and [5].

I think with all this in mind it is pretty safe to assume that the second tier is also fully professional In turkey.

Transfermarkt also ranks the 1. Lig as the 9th most valuable 2nd tier league. I also found this job offer to play in the Turkish 1. Lig, for a pretty descent salary. These might not be top class sources, but when you actually have several relatively highly valued players joined this 1. Lig such as Joseph Attamah, those are some other elements that would imply it is a professional league... Sincerely, --Coco (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

None of these actually confirm anything of relevance though. The first four only off-handedly describe the league as professional without providing any sort detail to allow us to actually evaluate the state of professionalism, Transfermarkt is not a reliable source, and the other two tell us nothing about the league as a whole. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:16, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree those are not the best sources, but this is all I could find for the moment. And yes Transfermarkt is not a reliable source per se, but in this case still gives pretty accurate state of level of professionalism. If any of you can find better sources it would be more than welcome (some speaking Turkish?). Because I still believe this league is very likely to be fully professional. --Coco (talk) 23:43, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have found this PDF file from the Turkish Football Federation regarding the 1. Lig. It states: "Spor Toto 1. Lig, Türkiye’nin en üst profesyonel futbol liginin bir alt ligidir." Now, Google translate seems to be a bit ambiguous: I'm unsure whether it's stating that it's a second-division league, which is also professional, or if it's saying that it's the league below the first (professional) division. It also states that "Clubs can sign as many professional football player contracts as they want" (Kulüpler istedikleri sayıda profesyonel futbolcu sözleşmesi imzalayabilirler ve tescil ettirebilirler). This article seems to refer to the first 4 divisions of Turkey as "professional". We firstly need someone fluent in Turkish to translate the first statement, and we also need some wage figures to have an idea on the professional status of the league. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 00:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Have been following the WP:NFOOTY NISA thread and was upset to see the discussion stopped so wanted to bring this up again for few reasons:

1. Here is a link to an official document from the United States Soccer Federation provisionally approving NISA league as D3 Professional - http://www.ussocceragm.com/book-of-reports - page 91 on 2020 Book of Articles. Suggesting that the NISA article that the general public can access and review, is not relevant because its lacking listing on WP:FPL is dubious as it questions the legitimacy of wikipedia as a whole. This is the equivalent of saying "Yea its professional!" Then whispering behind the publics back and saying "actually not really... but don't tell anyone!" Also apart from the USL's own websites there are no other sources proving USL to be sanctioned by USSF. Why is NISA League in question with an official document from the federation proving its legitimacy but not USL?

2. Contradictory that a club is deemed not professional and not in WP:FPL even though it clearly participates in a competition deemed relevant for a clubs inclusion in WP:FPL. Here is a schedule posting of several NISA teams participation in the US Open Cup posted via the United States Soccer Federations own website, just search "NISA" - https://www.ussoccer.com/us-open-cup. Note this is also the first round where PROFESSIONAL clubs are introduced.

3. Various articles referencing NISA's professional status:
https://www.soccertoday.com/why-america-needs-the-new-pro-soccer-league-nisa/
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/sports/detroit-city-fc-kick-first-season-pro-team-next-month
https://sgbonline.com/national-independent-soccer-association-announces-los-angeles-club/
https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/sports/professional/story/2020/mar/12/chattanooga-fcs-home-opener-nisa-suspends-season-due-coronavirus/518038/
https://www.nycosmos.com/news/2019/12/13/new-york-cosmos-confirm-participation-in-the-national-independent-soccer-association-starting-in-the-fall-of-2020
https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/73705/nisa-ex-fire-gm-peter-wilt-plans-launch-of-d3-lea.html
https://ussoccerplayers.com/2020/04/expansion-keeps-going-in-american-soccer.html

4.If all of the points above plus all of the news articles referencing NISA League as PROFESSIONAL are not enough to qualify NISA for WP:NFOOTY please let me know what or who decides that apart from WIKI moderators. Also please understand that if NISA is truly NOT professional this opens up some serious issues that need to be raised nationally ASAP. First of all, the public should know they are being deceived. Secondly, If NISA is truly not considered a professional league that means that NCAA College players can participate and not lose their NCAA eligibility. This type of news would make for a very big headline within the United States as your decision could be shared with College Compliance Offices to allow students to play in NISA and keep their scholarships and eligibility as a college athlete. Futbol10p 22:33, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The requirement is fully professional, not professional, meaning a player must make their full-time wages from the sport. For teams such as Oakland it's possible this is the case, but the last evidence I had shows some players were paid by the six-game season last year, which isn't "fully pro." Considering how new and unstable the league seems to be, considering we're a lagging indicator of notability, considering COVID, and considering this really is a "all players in the league pass WP:GNG" more than anything else, I see no need to add this to the list at the present time. SportingFlyer T·C 16:41, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I invite everyone discussing this to please avoid unsubstantiated assumptions and do their best to provide information for or against with outside sources so we can keep this an educated discourse and not one based on personal opinions WP:FAPO.

Article 1: On page 9 of an official FIFA document on player statuses it states that there are only TWO distinctions recognized by FIFA - Professional or Amateur. Why is Wikipedia trying to further introduce new distinctions beyond what the worlds football governing body as well as federations like USSF have already established? By FIFA and USSF standards, NISA League pays players and which are now considered professional and nothing else in between. Hence being a professional league - fully or not fully are not officially recognized distinctions.

https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/regulations-on-the-status-and-transfer-of-players-2018-2925437.pdf?cloudid=c83ynehmkp62h5vgwg9g

Article 2: Who or what is determining the league is unstable? Is that just SportingFlyer opinion? The NISA League started with 8 teams and has since added 6 more teams; are additions to the league - nevertheless teams like NY Cosmos - considered instability? Also please see the following article with quotes from a NISA Club OWNER stating his belief that the league IS stable.

https://www.si.com/soccer/2020/04/24/usl-championship-league-one-two-npsl-nisa-coronavirus-impact

Article 3: A NISA Team Owner + Lead Spokesperson for his team stating salaries are consistent with USL (which is considered FULLY pro).

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/story/2019-07-17/soccer-san-diego-1904-fc-demba-ba-nisa-sdccu-stadium?_amp=true

Article 4: Data provided by ex-NISA League Co-Founder Peter Wilt stating expectation for larger player wage budgets than USL League One teams (Also considered FULLY pro).

https://www.soctakes.com/2017/08/05/comparison-between-nisa-usl-d3/

Article 5: Article showing comparable Player + Staff pay to FULLY professional English League Two clubs. Article also shows - from factual information shared on behalf of the EFL - that there are some players in the Championship on $15,800 per year and in League One + League Two $9,500 per year. This can be considered not a full-time wage so should these cases also lead to speculation that the historic Championship, League One and League Two are actually NOT Fully Professional? I absolutely disagree and believe they are very much professional - which leads to the question then - what PERCENTAGE or amount of players must be paid a full-time wage for a league to be considered FULLY pro? This creates a very grey area and is a very important distinction to make clear.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8262315/Physios-191-000-kit-men-56-000-Crazy-wages-dont-add-EFL-clubs-brink.html Futbol10p 12:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, I'll keep playing. 1. Here on Wikipedia, we make the distinction between professional and "fully professional" as criteria to help distinguish between players which likely meet WP:GNG and players that don't. This excludes leagues that include semi-pro or amatueur teams, within reason (an amateur team was stunningly promoted to the Norwegian top flight, but we didn't remove it from the list out of common sense.) 2. Yes it's my opinion but the league has already had a couple teams fold, we're in the midst of a COVID crisis, and has barely played any games. Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability and outside of maybe Oakland and Detroit, nobody cares about this league (attendance is terrible.) 3. The word is "expected to be," and that source is primary. 4. An almost three year old article from a patreon-funded blog and that word again "expects." 5. Daily Mail is not reliable, and if you think League Two players should no longer qualify, that's a separate discussion. Basically what we need is either a definite showing of league salaries, or that everyone in the league is receiving coverage that qualifies them for WP:GNG - right now, we have neither. SportingFlyer T·C 08:30, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if SportingFlyer is trolling at this point or has some kind of personal vendetta or bias against NISA League because every response repeatedly conflicts with WP:FAPO and WP:NPOV and sound more like attacks against the league than logical reasoning. Making statements like "nobody cares about this league (attendance is terrible)." should immediately disqualify SportingFlyer from any further conversations on this topic and honestly any topics pertaining to professional football. USL Championship has average attendance of 4,900, EFL League Two 4,400, and USL League One 1908^[1] which are considered below average attendances but many people - including myself - still very much care about these leagues and they are ALL still considered "fully pro". Also I live outside of Oakland and Detroit and care about NISA - so there goes that argument... Average attendance - which you can request from the NISA office - for 2020 alone was around 2,039 before cancellation. It was 1720 in Fall 2019 alone - again legitimate signs of growth. Repeatedly mentioning COVID is also just unfounded alarm-ism.

There have been neither showings of league salaries or that everyone is receiving coverage for other "fully pro" leagues like USL Championship or USL League One yet they were accepted. If there is evidence showing otherwise please share the link.

If anyone else would like to add constructive arguments for or against and provide sources and not just trash talk a clearly fully pro league, I invite them too and hope SportingFlyer is banned from further conversation on this topic as he has shown no WP:GF regarding the topic.

Futbol10p 16:00, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone else want to ban me from football articles?

By the way, see discussions here for our most recent discussion on other US minor leagues, and [6] (sorry for the non-RS) for the 2020 season showing the very low attendance numbers outside of Oakland/Cal Strikers, along with the fact a couple teams have already folded. SportingFlyer T·C 00:56, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate sharing here but doesn't seem like any action or progress is being made there... Also I appreciate your sharing some supporting sources finally to make your case against NISA however, I think you are painting a misleading picture of the 2020 attendance. See first week stats - provided by the league:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NISA/comments/fenoe2/nisa_2020_spring_season_attendance_report_week_1/

There is already clear growth from Fall 2019 season (LA Force was averaging about 900ppl in Fall). Why were numbers low on week 2? I think the date says it all - March 8th - when very serious COVID warnings were already in place, especially in LA which was clearly affected. Again, I am only attempting to share facts here versus opinions by SportingFlyer that seem clearly biased and devoid of WP:GF - especially attempting for the THIRD time now to paint an unfair picture - devoid of any proof - that the league is unstable and a "couple teams have already folded." Can you please provide a source showing confirmation of the teams that folded? The NISA wiki clearly states "Inactive" not "Folded" which is a very important distinction. See article here clearly discussing the Phiadelphia Fury has in fact NOT folded but is looking for additional investors before rejoining the league again^[2]. That article has a primary and secondary source confirming this. Also let me state for the second time that despite one team moving to USL and two teams inactive - that could be back at anytime - that SIX new teams have been added. Also adding article from reliable secondary source stating NISA is "Fully Pro"^[3] Futbol10p 17:30, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

it is clear from the above that the league is NOT fully-pro and that there is no consensus to include it on the list. GiantSnowman 09:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry how is it clear from the 16 sources I've provided as proof FOR versus the zero sources from @SportingFlyer and only comments he admitted to being his own opinions? Yourself and @SportingFlyer have been the only two users opposing this with no proof or sources to backup your claims. Futbol10p 9:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that @Futbol10p wants the league to be considered fully-pro, in order for Patryk Tenorio to be granted automatic notability through WP:NFOOTY (see the AFC submission, which was rejected, and the AfD). I would go as far as saying that Futbol10p is creating his own Wikipedia page, and finding any possible solution to keep the article up. However, I don't want to jump to conclusions, so let's leave it at that. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You went from "It's pretty clear..." to "I don't want to jump to conclusions..." I'm surely not the only one that can see this is juvenile trolling at best right? I was initially unclear on the WP:GNG standards for the Patryk Tenorio article but have a better understanding of it now and agree it fails to meet those standards so I respectfully accept and understand if it must be deleted. The issue I am discussing here is of much greater important within world football and the players associated in my opinion and why I am addressing it. The outcome here has no bearing on my edits for Patryk Tenorio; I would not revisit until I see it meets WP:GNG. Futbol10p 9:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

"Juvenile trolling", are you serious? Where is the "general consensus of FOR 5 to 2" you are talking about? Four people have participated in this discussion: you, SportingFlyer, GiantSnowman, and I. If anything, the consensus is 1 to 3 (1 to 2 if you exclude me). Are you worth 5 people? Where are the other four people who think the NISA is fully pro? Also, the "it's pretty clear" relates to the fact that Patryk Tenorio is an important basis for why you are pushing so much for having the NISA included in this list (given that over half your edits, 24/41, are about him). "I don't want to jump to conclusions" is regarding the fact that you are Tenorio himself. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 17:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please review the archives on this topic and add up all the FOR vs. Against and let me know what number you find for and against and who the against users seem to be each time. FOR: Futbol10p, ArsenalFan700, ColeTrain4EVER, Smartyllama, Leviv. As stated before please stick to the discussion and provide sources and avoid making unfounded personal attacks. Futbol10p 10:15, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

May you please quote my supposed "unfounded personal attack"? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 17:29, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ColeTrain4Ever canvassed off-wiki (which fortunately didn't affect the discussion too much.) I'm exceptionally curious as to why you think Levivich supported your proposal. SportingFlyer T·C 19:51, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair I was just trying to find more sources to benefit my case - I wasn't looking for a pile on of screaming users who had no idea what they were talking about (hence the final sentence about using sources). I apologize if this seemed as though I was trying to use greater numbers of support to win the argument. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I was on a wiki break at the time and needed some time to think. I agree now that NISA isn't a fully-professional league, at least not yet. I do think it will be in the future but for now there is no evidence that every team is fully-professional. If anything, it is like the National League in England with a mixture of fully-pro and some somewhat pro sides. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• This has been the most educated, level headed argument made so far against and clearly made by someone with a strong understanding of the worlds game. That being said I think its a totally fair assessment. I appreciate your level headed response and think the National League comparison is great. Futbol10p 18:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bangladesh Premier League is a professional league where it is included as semi-pro league.^[1] Saiful Islam Jitu

Where are the third-party sources which confirm that the league is fully-professional? GiantSnowman 16:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From reading and browsing through many discussions within WP:FPL, it strikes me that almost every discussion comes down to having to prove or show CLEAR financial data or evidence (such as an Audit) that a league is "Fully Pro" and "Not Fully Pro" or that all players within the league meet General notability guideline standards - thus leading many discussions to no truly clear decision that cannot be challenged in one way or another. There are so many unknowns and grey areas within World Football that I don't believe those are realistic distinctions to achieve nor are there a wide offering of truly reliable sources to pull from. When I look at the countries from which "Not Fully Pro" leagues are listed, I believe that its a fair consideration to make that some of the leagues may indeed pass financial guidelines and perhaps many of the players are even considered notable within the country as football is indeed the worlds sport - but how will we ever find documents online to prove this from say a Fiji or Liberia Federation - which may not be as organized as The FA, LFP, DFB, etc- without actually going to the country physically and doing research or looking for paperwork to scan and then share online? It's simply not realistic and because of this, a countries top professional division is unjustly considered "Not Fully Pro".

• For me one of the biggest issues with this is that many players spend their whole lives pursuing dreams to be professional footballers and many get their starts in either the little known leagues or the lower leagues 3rd, 2nd, - considered "Not Fully Pro" - before making the top "Fully Pro" divisions. No player makes it to the 3rd or 2nd division and thinks they've made it, lets live off a barely livable wage for the next 12 years - in the same way that no player says I'm in the 2nd division but I'm "Not Fully Pro". The majority of players know and accept that anything below the 1st divisions (beside maybe England) or anything outside the biggest football nations will be a grind financially and not the ultimate goal for them but they can still be proud of being considered a "Fully Pro" footballer if the countries federation determines that league so - this is an achievement in itself for many footballers. To have editors on Wikipedia sitting comfortably at home behind their nice laptops or dual screen setups telling a young player from Fiji's top flight "No your league is not fully professional" because you don't earn enough and no one knows who you are is disrespectful to athletes grinding it out at a professional level perhaps in an small country but dreaming of reaching one of Europes top 5 leagues someday.

In closing, I propose that the distinction is updated to only reflect FIFA's own standards which are only determined as Professional or Amateur. Leagues should only be distinguished as such to keep things very black or white - the current distinctions create a LOT of grey area and only increase the debates and animosity between users on the talk pages. See here on page 9 of an official FIFA document on player statuses it states that there are only TWO distinctions recognized by FIFA - Professional or Amateur. https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/regulations-on-the-status-and-transfer-of-players-2018-2925437.pdf?cloudid=c83ynehmkp62h5vgwg9g Futbol10p 14:48, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No. Firstly the notability guideline specifies fully-professional leagues, so the scope of this list cannot be changed without getting the guideline changed.

Secondly, it would be a total nonsense, as it would add hundreds of leagues to the list of "professional" leagues. Football in England is only amateur at the 11th level and below (and even some players at that level are paid). This would open up articles on tens of thousands of players.

While there have been some cases where it's difficult to prove either way, in many cases there are references to leagues being fully-professional or semi-professional/part-time.

And regardless of all this, what you really want is an article on Patryk Tenorio. However, you've failed to prove that he passes the WP:GNG, so it's irrelevant what league he's coached in. Subjects that fail WP:NFOOTY can still be kept if there is evidence they are truly notable, while subjects pass WP:NFOOTY can still be deleted if it's proved they don't meet WP:GNG. Number 57 22:08, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Sigh...Here we go with the animosity and accusations again without having a normal discussion - cue eyeroll... So basically this would create more articles which you are against for some reason? Whats wrong with new leagues being added if its accurate? Is there a limit to how many leagues can be considered professional that I am unaware of? Are you in charge of writing those tens of thousands of player pages that it bothers you so much? Also those references you mention apparently aren't good enough as I found three regarding NISA specifically stating "Fully Professional"^[1][2][3] which were deemed not good enough - so again a grey area. Just want to add as well for @Number 67s understanding since he seems to take things personally, that regardless of the NISA decision which I could care less about anymore, this topic is completely separate but indeed has stemmed from some of the conversation raised in that discussion as well as others seen across the Talk Archives.

Lastly, I don't appreciate the attack you are making on me regarding the article I tried to create which has no connection to this discussion at all. I have actually already stated that I was wrong in doing so because I admit after being educated on the subject, that regardless it failed WP:GNG - if you review the above NISA discussion, you'll see I already made that same point days ago. Please don't respond on this discussion if you are going to be a troll and attack other users with completely unbased, off-topic things. As previously mentioned and clearly displayed by your response - this "Fully/Not Fully Pro" discussion only creates more debate and animosity which I am trying to remove as it has no place in Wiki discussions. Futbol10p 16:00, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a while since I have been actively involved in this discussion, but it would be helpful for there to be more clear definitions for what constitutes "fully-professional". The argument made by SportingFlyer of "meaning a player must make their full-time wages from the sport" was the best argument I have heard and the first time I had seen such an argument made. Could we define this more precisely? Is the argument that the players cannot earn money on the side to supplement their income? Or is it a regularity of payments by the club? Some objective standard would be helpful for deciding how the leagues at the margins should be considered (e.g. USL League One). For the record, I have always felt the standards for player notability are obscenely low, but I think a clear definition at the top of the page would reduce the arguments. Jay eyem (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jay eyem: I think it's just that simple and I mean that without any caveats: If a player's full time job is to play football, they are paid as such and train as such, and everyone in the league satisfies that standard, the league is fully professional. Players are free to earn money on the side, they are free to be paid once a year, but their full-time job must be football. For instance, a player who receives a lump sum of $1m from a club on 1 January and then opens a restaurant will still be a full-time footballer, since that's their primary wage. A player who trains two or three times a week and may receive a couple hundred dollars a week to play football is not a full-time professional. I'm sure there are edge cases, but the spirit of the rule is as simple as it seems: "do they make a full-time wage playing football?" SportingFlyer T·C 02:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I guess a lot of this just feels kind of subjective to me, especially with how some of the leagues are determined. And I feel it would be helpful to have this detailed out formally somewhere on the page. Your definition makes perfect sense, but I can understand how some newcomer wouldn't immediately understand the definition of "fully-pro" versus "professional". And my concern has generally been those edge cases, and I feel like the assumption of notability is already more liberal than it needs to be, so I think that formal statement would reduce the confusion. Jay eyem (talk) 16:11, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Absolutely not - especially as this seems to be a proposal to lower the bar. WP:FPL isn't perfect, but it does at least set a lower boundary above which players are likely to be notable. Furthermore, due to the hard work of number of editors we have a clear rrferenced boundary for pretty much every country in the world. This feels like extreme agenda pushing to me. Fenix down (talk) 23:04, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• No: the standards are good as they are now. What constitutes a "fully professional league" is not a gray area. The definition of a "professional" is that of being solely able to make income from football, without having to resort to other means to live by. I can only really speak about Lebanon, of which the top-level league (Lebanese Premier League) is semi-pro. The players are not amateurs, they do get paid on a regular(-ish) basis. However, the average monthly wage of a footballer in Lebanon is 1,500$, definitely not enough to be considered pro. The infrastructures are appalling, there is no investment, and even national team players (such as Kassem El Zein) have to resort to secondary jobs in order to live by.

It would be easy for me to be biased, and push for the distinction Futbol10p is trying to present, ergo pro/amateur, removing the idea of "fully pro". I would love the idea of having thousands of Lebanese players' pages available for creation. However, I have to be objective and realistic. This is Wikipedia, not WikiFootball. We can't have our footy-related biography count rise tenfold, given that we already have a ridiculous amount of biographies pertaining to the sport on this website. I really don't understand Futbol10p's remark ("To have editors on Wikipedia [...] telling a young player [...] "No your league is not fully professional" because you don't earn enough and no one knows who you are is disrespectful to athletes [...] dreaming of reaching one of Europes top 5 leagues someday"). How is it disrespectful to tell a footballer, who's top achievement in football was playing in a mid-tier Lebanese club earning 1,000$ a month, that he cannot have a Wikipedia article?

Not everyone "deserves" and article just because. The guidelines we have now are already pretty wide in of themselves, given that some Lebanese player who played 1 minute in an international friendly against Sri Lanka gets himself a Wikipedia page. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 01:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree entirely with this statement. The definition of "professional" is just that the athlete is paid for their performance. It has nothing to do with how much they are paid, or whether or not they choose to earn supplemental income. That's why we have the "FULLY" professional designation, but that isn't clearly stated anywhere on the page. It should be readily apparent with an objective standard when you look at the top of the page; one shouldn't have to go digging in the archives of the talk page to figure out what is the consensus. Jay eyem (talk) 05:52, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the amount an athlete is paid is relevant to being "professional". I have multiple friends who play in the Italian 9th division, and get paid €200 a season for their performance. But under no definition would my friends be considered "professional athletes", nor would the Terza Categoria be considered a "professional league". I'm not sure if my previous definition was correct, but the amount one earns must be paramount in defining professionalism. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I actually really like SportingFlyer's definition i.e. that as long as the player's primary job is football, for which they are paid, then they are fully pro. I think the ninth Italian division like you describe would pretty clearly be semi-pro at most, since I imagine that your friends don't live off of €200 a year based on your post. Major League Soccer is an excellent example of this if you look at the salaries of the early history of the league: a lot of players were basically making US poverty level wages, but they would still be considered fully professional. And of course players should, in theory, still need to pass WP:GNG. Jay eyem (talk) 16:11, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, but clarify Wanted to formally post this in case it wasn't clear from my other comments. I think this is an unnecessary and enormous change that isn't warranted. FPL is really just a gatekeeping guideline for presumed notability for players in these leagues. In theory, those players still need to meet WP:GNG to qualify for an article. Of course probably ~90% of them don't, but we keep them up anyway. I think the tone of the OP regarding Fijian players is unnecessary and frankly irrelevant: what is important is if the individual player can pass GNG, not the necessary level of "respect" being given to players.

All this being said, the issue remains that what constitutes a "FULLY professional league" as opposed to other "professional leagues" is not clearly stated on the page. I checked WP:NFOOTY and didn't see it there either. At the very least there should be some clear and objective criteria by which we judge leagues to carry that presumption of notability, and it should be made clear at the top of the page. That would certainly reduce the amount of discussion that occurs on this talk page, and should reduce the room for debate. Jay eyem (talk) 05:52, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - nope, every few months/years somebody tries to change this and they cannot suggest a better alternative. As N57 points out you are angry that your article has been deleted. I respectfully suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK and move on. GiantSnowman 09:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose "fully professional" is a stricter guideline than "professional" precisely because a professional soccer player may not meet WP:GNG, but if the player plays in a league which can afford to pay every player in the league a full time wage, that player is very likely to pass WP:GNG due to the nature of the coverage received. SportingFlyer T·C 02:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose The rule is fine the way it is but I can totally see why for new users they could be confused and not understand fully what fully-professional means. So perhaps a clear guideline is in order, but not a change to the guideline. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 12:56, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that an explanation/definition should be added to the page. GiantSnowman 07:57, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for a definition to add to the page here please. GiantSnowman 07:59, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest something like "Leagues in which almost all players are full-time professionals who do not need second jobs to earn a living."

This Sporting Intelligence study could be used a source and provides a technical definition, which has three elements: "a) every player is contracted to earn a minimum salary; b) that salary is at the very least a ‘living wage’ in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage; and c) that the ‘professionalism’ of the league extends to sufficient ‘contact hours’, and facilities, equipment, expenses and other support as necessary to allow ‘full-time’ pursuit of the sport." I think points (a) and (b) feed into the "do not have or do not need second jobs to earn a living" wording of the above (and (a) is probably irrelevant for all but the more marginal leagues), while (c) is effectively saying they are full-time professionals who spend a significant amount of time training (as opposed to part-time players who might train two evenings a week).

This ("The definition of ‘fully professional’ is that the players are paid a salary that they can live on") could also be used as a simpler source.

I used the "almost all" caveat to avoid Wikilawyering around cases like Dave Rainford. Number 57 12:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• My question is, what about youth players? Football is a game where you can have kids as young as 15 playing a senior competitive match between two teams who are "fully professional" but those 15-18 year olds are paid a salary below the minimum or in some cases are given special exemption from being paid (such as in USL Championship). So how would that be worked in to the definition for fully-professional? I do at some point, a way for Asian clubs to qualify as a fully-professional league would be to pass the Asian Football Confederation club licensing rules or something along those lines. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:12, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good point; I suppose that is covered by the "almost all" caveat in N57's example above? GiantSnowman 16:21, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would say so. And those ages you are still not considered a full adult in many countries, so the wage earning requirements aren't as relevant. Number 57 17:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Should stability of the league be a factor in fully professional recognition? Under the U.S. defunct leagues section there are six-ish leagues that lasted under two seasons (not counting the individual USISL seasons). Additionally, some of the only listed sources for these leagues are the year-by-year entries of David Litterer in his "The Year in American Soccer" pieces, which don't necessarily prove roster-ed players were making a "livable wage" from playing alone. Is there a specific "grandfather-ing" process leagues like this get since they are that old? What's to say these leagues aren't in a similar situation to the American Soccer League (2014–17) (claims to be professional, not listed here)? ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • To the first part of your point, I don't think so – if the league was fully-professional, it meets the wording of the guideline. However, if players were not making a living wage, they wouldn't count as fully-professional anyway. Number 57 17:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry I kinda diverted into two directions. I'm implying that if those leagues only lasted a handful of years, and little evidence is cited to prove they were paying players a consistent, livable wage, I'm having trouble listing them alongside things like the NASL or MLS. Like I can't imagine players being paid enough to live if the league didn't last that long. Plus I don't see evidence cited on the project page itself. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • If there is evidence that they weren't paying a living wage, then they shouldn't be on the list of fully-pro leagues. How long the league existed for is irrelevant in terms of whether it was fully-professional or not. Number 57 18:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • That makes sense, just looking to confirm. Sorry for the rambling I got hung up on the "evidence" part. Just feels like it would be hard for me to find evidence they weren't getting paid "livable wages" when it doesn't feel like there's evidence provided in the first place that players were paid that at all. Once this discussion gets more discourse in it I might make a new section on this matter. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 18:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • I've found it tends to be easier to focus on finding references to leagues being part-time or semi-professional (or players needing a second income) if you have concerns a league is not fully-professional. Number 57 18:31, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I really like that first source and definition. I would say one of the important aspects to me of that definition is the "living wage in your country". Obviously that varies by country, so maybe emphasizing that in the definition would be helpful? I would just add in that country to the end of the proposed sentence. Jay eyem (talk) 18:36, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I was going to open an RfC to update the fully professional leagues page header. This is just a draft, I would propose adding it after the first paragraph. Here goes:

A "fully professional league" is a league where every mature-aged player in the league plays football as a full-time career. This is a stricter standard from appearing in a "professional league," as some players may be paid to play football, but require a second job to maintain a full-time wage.

The guideline is designed to identify leagues around the world where every player should meet [[WP:GNG]], as leagues where every team can afford to pay all of their players should receive significant coverage from several secondary sources. However, an article on a player who appears in a fully professional league can still be deleted if the article fails [[WP:GNG]], and a player who has never played in a fully professional league can still pass [[WP:GNG]]. Players are also subject to deletion if they played very marginally in a fully pro league.

The guideline is not construed strictly in terms of adding or removing leagues, but is rather subject to consensus based on the evidence. Evidence a part-time youth player or trialist played several times in an otherwise fully professional league will not disqualify a league from the guideline. Other evidence which may be weighed include league minimum salaries, league rules, whether players receive payment during the offseason, whether teams train every day, and whether players are regularly employed in other fields during the season.

SportingFlyer T·C 18:53, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What's the stance on defunct football leagues, such as the Football League Third Division North (England's joint-third division during the 1950s)? Is it to be assumed professional, since today the top four divisions are, or does it have nothing to do with it? I'm asking because I'm unsure whether or not Pat Carlin, who played during the 1953–54 Football League Third Division North, is assumed notable per WP:NFOOTY. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 22:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: For all intents and purposes, I believe all divisions of the Football League are considered to be fully-professional throughout its history. Number 57 10:23, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese FA announced today that a new, "professional women's soccer league" will be launched in fall 2021 (see link). Noting here to keep track re: FPL status. Seany91 (talk) 07:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

English release notes that this will be Japan's first women's professional football league and will be the top-flight women's league, pushing the Nadeshiko League to second in the pyramid. It looks to follow the MLS/NWSL model with no relegation. Seany91 (talk) 15:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As this source provides no details as to the state of professionalism, it is not sufficient to to include the league in this list. Just because a league calls itself professional does not necessarily mean that it is fully pro. Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to this announcement by the RFEF, Spain's top two tiers of women's football are going to be professional. Does this mean we can add Primera División (women) and Segunda División Pro (women) to the WP:FPL list? --SuperJew (talk) 19:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you highlight the precise sections that discuss full professionalism? Fenix down (talk) 20:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Fenix down: Here is a translation from Google (I don't speak Spanish either haha):

"The professionalized competition qualification assumes that in the bases of the competition there will be a series of requirements regarding the professionalism of the footballers and other participants in it, such as coaches. These rules will also set the minimum conditions of a labor nature that the participants must meet, such as the clubs' budget, possible minimum budget for the staff with the first team's employment contract, minimum number of professional licenses, minimum wages to compete, minimum dedication of professional players, etc ..."

"Three different Professionalized Competition Committees will be created, one for the First and Second Division of Women's Soccer, one for the First and Second Division of Futsal, another for the First Women's Futsal. Both the qualification and the creation of these bodies have been approved today by the Delegated Commission of the RFEF."

--SuperJew (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't really indicate full professionalism. Sounds at the moment like a bit of a wishlist, I'd want to see the precise rules discussed before confirming full professionalism. To be honest, in the current climate, the idea that anyone would launch to new fully professional divisions, for men or women, seems a little far fetched. Fenix down (talk) 06:38, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do hope there will be. I understand if rn this isn't enough to go on. We'll keep an eye on it. --SuperJew (talk) 14:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just heard some news that the Italian women's Serie A will be going professional by 2022 with a couple of sources being here and here. Is that possibly enough to have a end date for the league not being professional? HawkAussie (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've read that too. I think that, for the time being, it's best to keep things as they are. Professional doesn't necessarily mean "fully-professional", it may very likely be that it's "not amateur". I would wait for 2022 to see what the wage figures, for example, will be. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 06:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A better question is are players on the team notable. We talk about professional and fully-professional ... but really the question is notability. If we can make always GNG cases for every player on every team, and they are semi-professional ... then one could probably make a case that the league should be listed. We worry too much about the FPL thing - I'm yet to see a player in a top Honduran team with a dozen starts go to AFD and not be kept. Yet evidence has always been that the entire league isn't fully professional. There can be huge disparities within leagues. Playing for Glasgow Celtic is not the same as playing for Ross County (WTF ... how did Hearts get relegated!)) Nfitz (talk) 16:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if there was a case for the Colombian Women's Football League to be listed as fully professional? I found this news article that clearly states that there were plans to put limitations on the league, making it semi-professional, but after discussions, the league would maintain it's professional status. Something worth looking into further? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 09:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]