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...no, communicator. Radio kinda person. Early radar type. But her contribution to radioastronomy was incidental, and not actually pioneering. People had known that sunspots coincided with radio problems for a couple decades then, and her work wasn't to study the sun's output per se, but to mitigate its effects on radar. (I think someone could make a very good case that this was an example of pure science being set back by other technological advancement. Solar radio interference has stopped being a problem as transmitters and receivers got better, so basic research languished until WWII. Raw power minimized the need for refinement; some interesting parallels with other design during periods of "cheap energy".)

She did a lot more serious work with rocks. Lots of people did odd things in wartime that they ceased soon after. (astronomer) is a misnomer. Anmccaff (talk) 08:10, 20 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most sources about her refer to her as an astronomer - We used what was available. We knew nothing of her until we came across the article late last year - We also know nothing about radio-astronomy/ geology or physics! We just used what was out there and what we could understand in books! Please edit it as you see fit; have you got another suggestion for the title of the article - We came to it when it was already named. ツStacey (talk) 20:17, 20 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, really, they don't. Most easily available sources on the internet do, but that's an 'orse of a different colour, and one of Wiki's larger Achilles' heels...and remember, when it comes to those, Wiki is a millipede. Anmccaff (talk) 00:33, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Then I apologise. I will not be changing it. It will remain as Astronomer because people complain and then won't do anything about it. I haven't got access to the books only the lazy rubbish sources you say we found. I'm not sure why you are not just editing to reflect what you have clearly found? ツStacey (talk) 09:28, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Leaving aside the lazy rubbish sources, you have an extensive list of good ones, publications, most of which scream "geologist!!!!", and none of which even suggest "astronomer." Radioastronomy hardly even [existed] yet then.

An article on this stage of development should never, ever, be listed as a "DYK;" since that's a great way to get an idea, right or wrong, onto websites which then become used as sources by later wiki writitors. Anmccaff (talk) 19:03, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you can judge other people on DYK contributions when you haven't done any? You still haven't edited this article to make it 'correct' so I'm not sure why you are arguing with me? I welcome new knowledge and would love you to make this article better. ツStacey (talk) 19:29, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I can; so can anyone. You don't need to be a painter to spot a holiday. Before you, or I, or anyone, can ask another "Do you know?" we'd damned well better know it ourselves.

I thought it fairly obvious I'm not that sure why this article should exist at all, which I think might clear up that question. Anmccaff (talk) 19:55, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How about changing the page title to Elizabeth Alexander (scientist)? She seems to have contributed in several fields; geology, palaeontology, soil science and astronomy. Mikenorton (talk) 15:31, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me! ツStacey (talk) 15:57, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Correlation between sunspots and radio problems was indeed known for a long time, but those problems are caused by the effect of EUV (in the nanometer range) on the ionosphere, not by the cm to meter wavelengths that were detected by the radar. Previous attempts to receive radio signals from the sun (in 1933 for example) failed, they didn't have the technology. However, she wasn't the first to make the discovery, that was James Stanley Hey in 1942, later that year George Clark Southworth also detected radiowaves from the sun, and Grote Reber did it in 1944 and was the first to publish his results (he used his own radio telescope, the other two couldn't publish because work with radar was classified during the war).

Don't know where you got the idea that interference stopped being a problem because transmitters and receivers got better. Yes, local radio stations were transitioning to FM (on VHF), but that only works for ranges up to 150 km or so, long distance transmissions were, and are still, MW or LW, and depend on skywave propagation (reflecting against the ionosphere), and interference due to spread-F causing multiple signal paths with different path lengths is still as big a problem now as it was then. Prevalence 06:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, yeah. Everything you say there is true, but I'm not sure what this has to do with the narrow subject at hand, though. Alexander was working not on getting information about the sun, but avoiding TMI about the sun. That it furthered radioastronomy, something that hardly existed yet, was just gravy. Also, you seem to have skipped through roughly three decades of commercial practice. Yupp, long-range communication still relies on skip, or relay, and I'm sure that some signals officers still have the unendearing nickname "Sunspot" like they did when I was a' servin' o' the Reagan. That didn't prevent a commercial broadcasting network from developing well before WWII. Receivers got good enough, and transmitters got loud enough. Anmccaff (talk) 15:46, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, title has been changed. Radar was of course her job from 42 to 45, but she didn't go to Norfolk to solve a radar problem. An effect only noticeable on a few days, and on these days only 4% of the time, wouldn't have been a priority problem, and it certainly wouldn't justify using that many resources. She went there to investigate if the sun was the source of the noise, and try and measure it. No, she wasn't really an astronomer, but at that time hardly any astronomers were involved. Some of them became astronomers, by continuing their work, but they weren't in 1945. Prevalence 18:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think it was about radar, actually. Her report "Long Wave Solar Radiation" explicitly mentions full-on jamming at dawn and sunset. Anmccaff (talk) 04:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I said before, if you do not like the article please edit it! This article has now been through DYK and good article processes where other editors have approved it and think she is notable. You are clearly not satisfied; I notice you like edit warring from your previous contributions and I don't plan to play those games. I will leave the note on the article to give you a chance to nominate for deletion - if you haven't done this in the next 2 days, I suggest you unwatch the article as I will be removing the unhelpful tag after that. ツStacey (talk) 09:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yo, @Bbb23:, @Ponyo:, see my point about why certain admin actions should be appealable?

Just to make your point clear here, so it will be more easy for them to review at ANI, AN3, &cet, what exactly are you insinuating? Anmccaff (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't see your point and have no clue why you've pinged me here.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 18:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ponyo:[Scroll down to "Re message re block."] Anmccaff (talk) 18:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Elizabeth Alexander (scientist)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Keilana (talk · contribs) 03:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• If you don't hate sfn, it might be nice to have Sullivan and Orchison linked in the reflist. (If you do, that's okay, it's definitely not a dealbreaker for me.) Otherwise wrt references, you seem to have used all the major ones and it seems complete.
• "gained her PhD" sounds weird, maybe "earned her PhD"?
• "Her correct interpretation in 1945 of anomalous signals picked up on Norfolk Island as coming from the sun" needs rephrasing
• Is there any information on her mother?
• TIL that a flying boat is a thing.
• "interred" means buried, I think you meant "interned"

@Worm That Turned: To be honest, that's about it. Lovely article! Let me know if you have any questions or whatever, this should be a pretty quick promotion. :) Keilana (talk) 04:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Keilana! Thanks for such a speedy review, and for such positive comments. I've fixed the simple things to fix, attempting to rephrase the line in the lead, let me know what you think. I've also stuck sfn in, as I've recently got my head round it for another article I'm writing. We've looked and looked, and found no information on Alexander's mother. I vaguely recall seeing some trivial mention in a self published source, but there was nothing that was worthwhile for the article, so I had dismissed it and now I can't find it again! As for the flying boat, they turn up all the time in movies and tv programs, but I'd never realised what they were called! Had to mention it! Worm^TT(talk) 09:21, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Worm That Turned: Thanks for the quick fixes! I like the rephrases and the use of sfn. Too bad about her mother, but if it doesn't exist you certainly can't be expected to include it! I'm passing the article, great work. Keilana (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(remove nonsense/troll tag. See http://www.piha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Alexander.pdf, 2nd page of pdf, 2nd paragraph)

No matter how many times you revert accurate information, you can not change facts. Patna Science College was founded 10 years after Dr Caldwell returned to England for her secondary education, it's trivial to find many, many confirmations of this, in fact, the second reference given here, which you have obviously not read, does so. Anmccaff (talk) 17:42, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article writes "She [Elizabeth Alexander] spent some of her early life in India, where her father, Dr. K. S. Caldwell, was the first Professor of Chemistry and later Principal at Patna Science College." Orchiston writes "Frances Elizabeth Somerville Alexander neé Caldwell (Figure 1) was born on 13 December 1908 at Merton, Surrey, but spent her early life in India, where her father was the first Professor of Chemistry at Patna Science College and later was its Principal."

That the college was founded after she was in India is inconsequential. As for whatever allegations of 'libel' you're trying to make, my only response to that is PYGMIES+DWARFS??. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is not inconsequential, it is both inaccurate, and an indicator of the degree of attention given the editting.

As for your border-line libel, see this dif. You claim, inaccurately of course, that Orchiston attempted to himself take credit for other's work. You did this because you were unable to understand that "Smith, 2007" means "the thing written by Smith in 2007;" a very, very common way of citing references. Anmccaff (talk) 20:04, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Simply put, no. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:50, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"No," you continue to assert, as you have before, that Orchison is a bad source? "No," you have realized your error? Which of the many "no"s are you claiming, in your simple way? Anmccaff (talk)

No, that the college at which her father thought was established after she was in India is of any consequence. No, it is not inaccurate to write "She spent some of her early life in India, where her father, Dr. K. S. Caldwell, was the first Professor of Chemistry and later Principal at Patna Science College." when Orchiston writes "Frances Elizabeth Somerville Alexander neé Caldwell (Figure 1) was born on 13 December 1908 at Merton, Surrey, but spent her early life in India, where her father was the first Professor of Chemistry at Patna Science College and later was its Principal." No, it is not libel to claim that Orchiston cannot be relied upon for claims about his own role in radio astronomy. No, I did not do this because I'm "unable to understand that "Smith, 2007" means "the thing written by Smith in 2007". Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:18, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And I'll point out WP:NOTFORUM. This talk page is to discussion improvements to the article, I've got no interest in discussing what keeps you awake at night. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:31, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

that just makes a mess. Take it to the talk page, please.)

I believe most of the points were adequately covered in the tags, but let's look at them again here.

(re using her personal name only)[dubious – discuss]

I think that's pretty straightforward; articles should prominently include names needed for identification or reader research and fact-checking. J B S Haldane isn't called "Jack" in too many of his papers.

Alexander was born Frances Elizabeth Somerville Caldwell on 13 December 1908 in Merton, Surrey.[1][unreliable source?]

I don't particular doubt either fact is correct, but that's a crap source, wrong on simple particulars.

here has been some controversy over whether Alexander or Ruby Payne Scott was actually the first woman to work in the field of radio astronomy.[2][dubious – discuss]

Scholarly controversy? No, a little fluff in a lab newsletter. That's not a source with any real weight.

Anmccaff (talk) 00:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I know nothing about this. I just saw an edit that put the wrong tag at the top of an article and I fixed it. What's your proposal? Bradv 00:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]