E. J. Levy[edit]

• E. J. Levy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi, I've been notified that an article purportedly about me contains both misinformation and bias E.J. Levy, despite efforts to balance it by Wikipedia editors (Partice Starr, Sarah Sloane, Hedgielaar, and others). I would like to request that this article be either removed or balanced, and that factual inaccuracies (especially malicious and inaccurate mischaracterizations of my forthcoming novel, The Cape Doctor) be removed. The site appears to be being used by a few editors (eg, Wallyfromdilbert) to attack me and my book, and to carry on an argument from Twitter.

It is my understanding that Wikipedia articles must conform to the following principles:

Neutral point of view (NPOV) Verifiability (V) No original research (NOR)

Wallyfromdilbert, among other editors, have repeatedly violated two of these three Wikipedia tenets in regard to the E.J. Levy page, despite attempts to correct these problems by means of edits and despite several appeals to Wikipedia editors and administrators. I would be grateful if the more balanced and accurate edits of Patrice Starr, hedgielamar, and Sarah Sloane, and other editors were protected against what seem evidently malicious rollbacks.

Wallyfromdilbert's edits do *not* reflect a Neutral Point Of View; rather they have repeatedly and selectively quoted from articles to attack my novel, The Cape Doctor, editing *out* quoted material from those same articles that would offer a more balanced perspective on the book and scholarly debate (see recent additions/edits by Patrice Starr and Hedgielamar for evidence of this; Starr and hedgie have added quotes that provide balance, but those edits have been repeatedly "rolled back" by Wallyfromdilbert and others so as to *bias* the page and its representation of my work);

Additionally, certain claims in the Wikipedia article about me and my book are *not* Verifiable, because they are factually incorrect. Specifically the claim that my forthcoming novel, The Cape Doctor, refers to James Miranda Barry as a "heroine" is simply wrong, as anyone who has read the novel can attest. The Wikipedia editors making this claim have *not* read my novel and are either speculating or quoting speculation, despite my public statements to the contrary to the press. In fact, as I have said publicly in Bustle, my novel refers to Barry as "he," "she," and a "hero"; I do not at any point refer to James Barry as a heroine. So this is both inaccurate and unverifiable. Nor is my novel "transphobic," as these editors want to claim. These claims are hostile speculation and mischaracterization, and should be removed. As my public statement in Bustle's article makes clear, neither I nor my novel is transphobic (quoting me from that article would support this assertion); claims to the contrary are based on malicious speculation and projection (such claims cannot be based on the novel, as the novel has not been released).

Despite repeated efforts to correct these inaccurate claims, these editors (Wallyfromdilbert among others) have maliciously mischaracterized me and my book. I hope that Wikipedia will put a stop to that misuse of Wikipedia. If it is not possible to stop this biased and inaccurate editing, I would request that the page be removed. Thank you. EJLevywriter (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Most of the sources are opinion pieces, speculating about the book using words like "led critics to believe", "if that is the case", "appears to misgender". These are not reliable sources about the book itself but mere speculation about something that has not been released yet. The only reliable report comes from the Guardian, which in addition to detailing the twitter debate notes that no one really knows how Barry identified, saying, "But whether he had always ‘felt male’ during his earlier female years (he changed identity at age 20), who knows?... Much of what we 'know' about him is really the Barry myth – that is, culturally constructed legend, based on hearsay, fiction and fiction-inflected biography." I think it needs to be toned down to reflect the twitter debate, but not to speculate on the novel itself. (It should also be changed to perfect perspective rather than future perspective so that it won't sound weird after the book is released, plus that looks more like we're not running an ad.) Zaereth (talk) 22:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Zaereth, and add that the encyclopedic value of a twitter debate is dubious. A sentence or two may be due, but nothing more until far better sources are found. --Ronz (talk) 23:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

FYI, I didn't add any of the contentious information to the page. My additions mostly expanded the references. I removed information added by Hedgielamar and his sockpuppet JMB2019 that contradicted the cited sources (and who largely refused to participate in any discussion about the changes that were reverted by numerous editors. BTW, I've removed several additions by other editors that were also unsourced.) "EJLevywriter" uses the same attacks fixating on me and writes with the same style as Hedgielamar (including claiming the Bustle article says that the novel refers to Barry as a "hero" when it clearly does not). This seems very suspicious, and likely to be the same user, although may or may not be the actual author, E.J. Levy. Just want to have a record of the similar patterns in case the edit warring by these users starts again. As for the actual article content, thank you, Ronz, for your trim. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 18:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. A request to confirm identity might be a good step to take, and a SPI report if any further editwarring occurs. --Ronz (talk) 18:25, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. Hopefully your edit will end the dispute on both sides. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 18:32, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Just so you know, when someone starts off with accusing everyone else of bias, I take that with a grain of salt, because it's almost always an unconscious confession of their own biases. I find it humorous how our own minds betray us. In cases such as this, looking at all the plugs both here and in the article, I have to wonder how much of this is publicity based. Zaereth (talk) 19:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

As one of those "other editors" that EJLevywriter and Hedgie mention, I'd like to chime in with my thanks as well, Ronz and Zaereth. I also agree with Wallyfromdilbert that this writing pattern is EXACTLY the same as Hedgie's, right down to the fixation on Wally and request that if the article can't be "balanced" (read: portrays the outcry as limited in scope and misguided in its criticisms) it should be removed; further, this person is the second one I've seen on here to mention Sloane's given name (it's not in their username). The first one was Hedgie. Take that as you will. Regarding the article, right now, that controversy is all that Levy is actually known for - I feel like it's notable enough to keep in, especially with the Guardian piece, but we definitely need better sources. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 19:47, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The The Cape Doctor paragraph in the article seems reasonable, but it shouldn't take up more than half the WP:LEAD, I'd remove it from there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I am grateful to Ronz, Gråbergs Gråa Sång and Zaereth for their very helpful corrections to this page purportedly about me, but several editors continue to mischaracterize my forthcoming book and me, in what appears to be continuation of a Twitter battle. I hope their biased and unfactual (thus unverifiable) characterizations of me and my book will be removed, and the editors involved (NekoKatsun and Wallyfromdilbert ) prevented from continuing attacks on me via Wiki.

Specifically: 1) these warring Wiki editors claim my novel refers to Dr. JM Barry as "heroine"; it does not and it never has. As I stated to The Times and Bustle, both of which quote me, the novel mostly uses first-person and male pronouns; I refer to Barry as a "hero" once at the book's end. (On Twitter, which appears to be the real basis for their edits, I referred to Barry as a "she" and a "heroine" only to counter those claiming only male pronouns could apply to that gender-ambiguous figure. No binary term seems to me correct, so I was balancing the ledger. My book should either be correctly represented or not characterized at all. I've not quoted sources here for Bustle and the Times, as I understand they have been repeatedly posted on the EJ Levy page and removed.) 2) I am lesbian, so any characterization of me should use that term. (To call me "queer" when I identify as "lesbian"--and have written about same--is equivalent of calling a straight man "bi-" despite his published statements to the contrary. The broader category may contain but does not accurately represent the individual.) 3) Any characterization of Barry on a page that refers to me should be factual and unbiased. Barry's biographers all agree that Margaret Bulkley dressed as a man to enter medical school and the army, institutions from which she was barred by sex, and continued to live as James Barry throughout adulthood. To elide the necessity of male dress to obtain and education and enter professions is to mischaracterize the subject of my book. These facts are not disputed, and are--I believe--correctly represented on the Barry Wiki page, which is sourced from multiple biographies, including Dr. James Barry: A Woman Ahead of Her Time (2016) by Dronfield/Dupreez. 4) If the Wiki page is to be used to continue a war on me (and the facts) by editors, I would request that it be removed. Thank you. Wikipedia should be factual, verifiable, and representing a neutral POV. These editors--(NekoKatsun and Wallyfromdilbert ) -- are not abiding by those standards. Thank you for your help. my clear statements about it contents to the Times and Bustle. I ; — Preceding unsigned comment added by EJLevywriter (talk • contribs) 18:24, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

You know, I see no evidence of anyone campaigning a war against you. When I see statements like that it becomes hard to take the rest of it seriously. In my personal opinion, some people are far too sensitive, like an open wound, and this twitter debate is a wonderful example of this. (Psychologically speaking, over-sensitivity tends to show a lack of self-esteem, self confidence, and a poor image of oneself (or, rather, an overly negative perception of how others view them; see: metaperception), and possibly at the extreme end some personality disorder such as BPD.) You can call me he, she, it, they, straight, gay, bi, a sissy, or a total a-hole for all I care. Water off a duck.

The Bustle article is an opinion piece and thus is not a reliable source. I haven't seen the "Times" article. Is it the NY Times or Anchorage Times? Or some other paper with that in its name? Is it an op/ed piece or a news article, because any paper has both? It's best to bring your sources here so we won't have to hunt for them, but keep in mind that the more reliable sources you can find; the more likely this will remain in the article.

That said, the statement in the article that the book actually uses these terms is not supported by either of the sources. The Guardian, which is a well-written piece, and the Daily Dot, which is far less favorable, both show this is only speculation. We should not say it as fact in Wikipedia's voice when the sources clearly do not. In all, however, I agree with Ronz that the entire "debate" is rather small and not too widely covered. As such, its significance doesn't seem to rise to the level warranting its inclusion, given the size and scope of the article, but others may disagree. Zaereth (talk) 19:32, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

@Zaereth: FYI EJLevywriter is likely a sock of Hedgielamar. Not clear whether the accounts are the actual author (especially since the actual author clearly refers to herself as "queer" and not just "lesbian" [1]). The accounts also refuse to engage in any discussion about the article content. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 21:45, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I understand. For the purposes of this discussion only, I will assume she is who she says, although I would expect a writer to understand the value of paragraphs to comprehensibility. That doesn't invalidate some of her points. At the least, I would echo Gråbergs Gråa Sång and suggest moving it out of the lede, because we're giving it too much weight compared to the entire scope of the subject's life and career. Either that, or drastically expand the article so it's not taking up so much of the space. The weight we give info should be in balance with the significance of that info to the subject as a whole. And I've read the sources, which do not support the assertion that the book actually says this. This is all based upon stuff that was said on social media, including the word "heroine", but the book has not been released yet and no one (not even Bustle) says it's in there. (Bustle only hints at it.) And something deep in my gut still says publicity stunt, as there's no publicity like bad publicity. Zaereth (talk) 22:06, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion on the content of the article, but The Guardian source does claim the novel refers to Barry as a "heroine" ("The Cape Doctor by EJ Levy, which describes the individual born Margaret Ann Bulkley as ‘a heroine’"), although their source for that information is not clear especially as part of the header. Also, material about the forthcoming novel was already removed from the lead (based on a discussion on the talk page). The lack of additional information about Levy and whether she is notable have also been brought up there. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

My thanks to Zaereth for your notes above. I am who I say I am; EJLevywriter is not a sock; I am a lesbian author who has registered a formal complaint with wiki about ongoing efforts to mischaracterize me and my book on the EJ Levy page. The Guardian worked from Tweets, where I refer to Barry as "she" and a "heroine"; my novel does not, as I have stated in the verifiable press (Times of London, Bustle). To continue to mischaracterize my book on Wikipedia appears to be an attempt to engender controversy where there is none and to continue a Twitter debate. My book is feminist, gender-queer; I am lesbian. Please do stop quoting unfactual speculation about me and my book and quote instead what is factual, from those few in a position to characterize both--namely myself (as the author). I expected better of Wikipedia. I understand now its reputation for mob rule and misogyny, which makes me especially grateful for the few calm and thoughtful voices weighing in here. I'd be grateful if someone could revert to factual edits on the page ostensibly about me, as I understand it's bad form for me to do so myself. Thanks, guys. EJLevywriter (talk) 21:26, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Levy, something to keep in mind is that as this book has not yet been released, and we cannot use it as a source here on Wikipedia. We can only use reliable third-party sources. That section of your article is primarily about the controversy that your book has generated - the articles cited there, as well as the Bustle article, are about said controversy. We can't downplay or remove an extant controversy about your reported using of pronouns just because you don't like it. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 21:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

@EJLevywriter: Even though you're identifying yourself as E. J. Levy, there's no way for anyone trying to help you to pass through their computer screen to wherever you are and actually see whether that's really the case; moreover, even if one person could possibly do such a thing, there's no way for Wikipedia to expect every person who edits the encyclopedia to do the same. Users are allowed to use their real names as their account user names as explained in WP:REALNAME, but in some cases some kind of more formal verification may be required as a precaution against damaging impersonation, and accounts identifying as a specific identifiable person may even be soft-blocked to prevent a user from claiming to be someone they aren't. You can send an email to Wikimedia OTRS clarifying who you are. OTRS volunteers are special editors who have been vetted to have access to certain types of emails sent to the Wikimedia Foundation about things related to Wikipedia, etc. and only they can see these emails. So, if you email OTRS from your official email address and provide proof or a statement that you are E. J. Levy, OTRS will verify the email and will add a template to your page (if everything is in order) so that others can see that your identity has been verified. This won't give you any special privileges when it comes to editing and you will still be subject to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest (see WP:DISCLOSECOI for more on this), but it should quickly resolve any suspicions that your account might be a sock puppet. Whether you do this is up to you, but as I mentioned above, accounts claiming to be a particular identifiable person (particularly someone with a Wikipedia article written about them) often end up blocked as a precaution. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

EJ, I agree with you that someone is trying to engender controversy where there is none. These are the people on twitter. The story seemed important enough to some reporter that they felt it necessary to publish it in a reliable source using a reliable, journalistic style. That makes it worthy of inclusion ... under the restrictions given by all the other policies. One of those is WP:UNDUE. This says that, although the info is verifiably worthy of inclusion, it must be in proportion to the significance of that info. I see that people have worked to accommodate this rule by giving it very little space and moving it out of the lede. No one here appears in the slightest to be trying to continue this debate. They're just reporting that it happened.

Not everything printed by a reliable press agency is a reliable source. Legitimate news articles which are reviewed by an editorial staff and adhere to journalistic standards and ethics are reliable. Opinion articles and editorials in which the author gives their personal take or spin on the story are not reliable for anything except maybe the author's opinions. Your Bustle source is a great example of an opinion column.

My personal view is that the debate just not relevant to this article and really belongs in the article about the book itself. However, you've complicated that by engaging in the debate, thus adding relevance to yourself, so it's right on the fence. And the more you engage; the more the relevance shifts to you personally.

If you truly are who you say, then you have more power than any of us to affect this story, both positively and negatively. You can give interviews to reliable sources instead of engaging on twitter. You can write editorials and get those published. There are a myriad of things you can do as the subject to affect this story. When the book comes out, if the word is not there, you'll be vindicated and all the naysayers will look like idiots. (Not to mention, do you know how many people are going to run out and buy this book just to see? I guarantee you all those twitter debaters will, so I say just take your 15 minutes and run with it.) Zaereth (talk) 23:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Given that the work is not yet released, giving what seems to be a very minor controvsery this much weight at this time is wrong, particularly on a BLP; its far too accusational for something not publicly available yet. When the book is out, the pre-release controversy stuff can be reviewed and included if still deemed important (maybe the changes didn't go far enough so the criticism continues; maybe it is fully resolved and no one criticizing before release has anything bad to say about it now). It does not need to be included at this point. --Masem (t) 23:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I would like to see a link to the Times of London article mentioned above. I think that would be a good addition to the article, since it is RS. HouseOfChange (talk) 01:18, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

@HouseOfChange: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/novelist-defends-her-version-of-pioneering-trans-doctors-life-story-f6hsbdgf3

I believe you need to sign up with a credit card to access the full article. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:24, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I lean towards Masem's line of thinking. We're in no hurry. Let's wait until the book debuts and see how it all plays out, when we have real reviews and information to go along with it. Zaereth (talk) 01:36, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I was able to access the Times article, which seems to be the source of some quotes used in the Bustle article, a less reliable source. I will discuss this on the article talk page. The controversy, in the sense of people attacking Levy, is already discussed and referenced in the article. Until I added a sentence yesterday, there was nothing about Levy or others defending her point of view. This hardly seems to fit our NPOV policy, whether the book has been published yet or not. HouseOfChange (talk) 05:21, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

It's more about RECENTISM. We want to be writing articles that are future-proof, covering the long-term details. A controversial aspect of a book that hasn't been released, the controversy over details that are not firm, may go away when the book is released, and makes the current inclusion of them inappropriate or UNDUE; just because it can be documented and documented within BLP sourcing considerations doesn't mean it is necessary to include. We prefer editors to wait for the dust to settle and then write about controversies, if they are still worth writing about anyway. --Masem (t) 18:30, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: As Marchjuly said below, it is probably best to put these comments on the article talk page instead of here. Discussions have already been fragmented, which negatively affects the ability to reach a productive resolution. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 18:35, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

• I think it might be best that any further comments about this be added to the article talk page instead of here. There are two BLPN threads (the other is WP:BLPN#E.J. Levy (2)) and article talk page discussion currently ongoing which runs the risk of fragmenting things and making it harder to reach a consensus. There now appear to be quite a number of editors discussing things on the article's talk page; so, it seems best to keep everything related to the article there. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:27, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I want to thank HouseOfChange for weighing in on this; the summary up on the page this morning seems quite fair, representing the controversy on Twitter and distinguishing that from the actual text of my book. I appreciate, too, the correction regarding my sexual orientation. This now seems unbiased and well supported by reliable sources. My only correction would be that my professorship at CSU dates from 2012, not "as of March 27, 2019"; I received tenure there in 2014. Thank you for your help. EJLevywriter (talk) 21:23, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Here at Wikipedia we require reliable sources for our information; can you point us towards a source that confirms your hire date and date of tenure? At the moment our source is the CSU site, which states only that you are an associate professor in the English department with a concentration in creative writing (fiction and nonfiction). NekoKatsun (nyaa) 21:30, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

OTRS

EJLevywriter I see Marchjuly advised you to contact the OTRS via email. If you have not done so I urge you to do so.

Most wikipedia contributors do their best to conduct themselves with good faith. However, there a people who contribute here prepared to use any means they can to push their personal point of view, or a point of view they are paid to promote. Sadly a technique these people have employed is to pretend they are the subject of articles they want to change, or delete.

What black hat hackers know is that even otherwise intelligent people can be fooled, manipulated, by an appeal to their emotions. They call this kind of manipulation "social engineering". The fourth Die Hard movie, the one where the hero's sidekick is a computer hacker, shows an instance of the hacker kid using social engineering to fool a remote support technician to remotely start a stolen car, by claiming he is the son of the car's driver, who just suffered a heart attack.

The lesson for us, from those past instances, is that we should insist that third party individuals, like you, who claim special standing, confidentially confirm their real world identities through our confidential OTRS system.

I suggest we put this discussion on hold, and wait for you to do so. I am sure if you are who you say you are, you understand. When you phone your bank they won't reveal your banking details, or make changes to your account, until you answer a bunch of questions that establish you are who you say you are. Confidentially confirming your identity through our OTRS system is the same kind of thing.

Yes, the wikipedia has a bad record of under-representing women. But we won't improve this reputation by forgetting to have you confirm your identity. Geo Swan (talk) 15:25, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• I bought her collection of short stories. It reminds me of Karen Joy Fowler's work. FWIW, she is an excellent writer. Geo Swan (talk) 01:35, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Arvin Vohra[edit]

• Arvin Vohra (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There are several incomplete or out of context quotes on this page, which is the page for the potential Libertarian Party presidential nominee in 2020. Examples:

1. Rather that quoting the original person, quotes are coming from people quoting the person. The original quotes are easily accessible in the articles referenced on the page. I have fixed one of these, but there seem to be quite a few. 2. Opening sentences of satirical articles are placed as if serious, without including relevent information of the rest of the article. 3. Relevant information missing, literally including political views! Why are a candidate's political positions missing? These are easily available through project votesmart and other sources.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.195.214 (talk) 02:29, March 17, 2019 (UTC)

Fraser Anning again[edit]

More eyes on the article and input on the article talkpage regarding the sourcing and wording of this edit (which I have reverted for now per WP:BLPREMOVE), would be useful. See current discussion. Abecedare (talk) 00:38, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, please help! We are starting to go in circles, I think. Part of the issue is whether we can source a statement solely to a primary source. StAnselm (talk) 03:51, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Ramesh Balwani[edit]

Hi after long discussion on the talk page I doubt that the lawsuit sections neutrality suits the requirements of a blp. As greenC and I seem to disagree on that point, I would like someone else point of wiew. Please accept my apologies if this is not the right place for this message, I'm neither a regular contributor nor fluent in English. Cheers --Doubleclavier (talk) 21:07, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the entire section on the lawsuit as this was sourced only to a legal document, which under BLPPRIMARY is not allowed as a source. I left a message on the talk page explaining it. If you have any questions about the subtleties of English, please feel free to ask me as I like to think I have a fair understanding of them. Zaereth (talk) 22:56, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. The new version is much better. IMHO, only one possibly litigious sentence remain:

Balwani also was present when Holmes told Safeway's then-CEO that Theranos’ analyzers were being deployed in the battlefield.[17]

=> Balwani was also alledgedly present when Holmes told Safeway's then-CEO that Theranos’ analyzers were being deployed in the battlefield.[17]

I have the filling that the current version is assertive and sourced only by the indictment act. I wanted to implement the version above, but was blocked (apparently my edits on WP fr doesn't give me experience here :-/)

--Doubleclavier (talk) 12:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I removed that sentence as well, and all other citations to court documents. (Sorry, I didn't take the time yesterday to go through the entire article.) Please feel free to report anymore problems you see. Zaereth (talk) 17:06, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

(Zaereth) I'm transferring this from my talk page to here:

You are right court documents can not be used as a sole source, but incorrect they can't be included at all on Wikipedia.

WP:PRIMARY states:

Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.

WP:BLPPRIMARY states:

Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies.

So the question is why you are actively deleting primary sources that are discussed by a secondary source? Maybe you have a reason to do so, but have not articulated it, why in this particular case they should not be in the article. -- GreenC 17:33, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

BLPPRIMARY states unequivocally "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person." (Emphasis in original.) This is nonnegotiable. You may use primary sources to augment a seconday source, such as the subject's personal website for example, but not court documents, birth certificates, marriage licenses, phone books, or other such public records. Further discussion should take place at BLP/N, so I'm transeferring this there. Zaereth (talk) 17:40, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I just removed the court documents again, but we may need some more eyes on this to keep them from being re-added. Zaereth (talk) 17:52, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

What is the reason for this policy? That he faces charges by the SEC is a plain fact that is not opinionated or subjective in any way, and supported by dozens of secondary sources, most of which discuss and link to the court document. -- GreenC 18:16, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

See WP:BLPPRIVACY and WP:NOR. Zaereth (talk) 18:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Zaereth has the right of this. The article already states he is facing charges (backed by reliable, third party sources), there is no reason to re-add court documents which are EXPLICITLY foribdden by the second sentence WP:BLPPRIMARY. The last sentence of this policy explains that you can use some primary sources if certain conditions are met, but one of these conditions is that the addition of a primary source is "subject to the restrictions of this policy." One of these restrictions is "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person." This means that it is never acceptable to use court documents to support allegations against a living person. In this case, these primary sources are not needed as the lawsuit and criminal charges are well-covered by reliable third party sources. SWL36 (talk) 18:42, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

That's fine. In my long experience on Wikipedia the word "assertion" is typically used to differentiate from statements of fact. Assertion is a matter of opinion, a subjective call, a belief - something besides a basic fact. This definition is supported by some sources, but not others, but either way the emphasis is on the mode of delivery ie. a forceful or strong conviction. When used in mainspace, it usually precedes a statement to make it clear this is someone's heart-felt opinion eg. "the man asserted he was innocent". This is why I think the word in this case is inappropriate (or at least confusing) for what it is trying to convey in the policy, and that it may actually be for the meaning related to an opinion vs. a statement of fact. Do we know when this section was added and by what process? -- GreenC 19:02, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree, it does somewhat confuse the issue. It should say "Do not use court documents, etc. Period." To assert something, whether fact, opinion, fiction, direction, instruction, or command, means to do so assertively. For example, the sentence in quotes I just used is assertive. "Don't play in the road, those cars are more than 10 times your weight." is assertive, yet a factual statement (regardless of whether the facts are true or not). But I learned long ago, the hard way, not to go around trying to change policy. The best way to affect change is by setting a good example for others. Zaereth (talk) 19:20, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Well it's still unclear what the rational is for excluding court documents. It would make sense to exclude them for opinionated statements, but arbitrary to exclude them always no matter what. I understand, this is what the policy says. But behind every policy is a reason for why the policy exists in the first place. OR and BLPPRIVACY doesn't really explain it either. Can you explain it in plain language? -- GreenC 19:56, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

When it comes to primary sources in general, they are usually highly technical, and unless an author has some expertise in the subject matter, they are very easily misinterpreted by the layperson. This is especially true with things like legal documents, but even to things like Facebook or Twitter posts, where there may be some inside joke or background information that people leave out when talking to their friends, but are easily misinterpreted by others. I use primary sources all the time, like military flight manuals and scientific studies, but only because I have some expertise in those areas, and only in conjunction with secondary sources. Moreover, legal document often contain personal and private information, and thus also violate BLPPRIVACY. Zaereth (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok great. The only private info in the SEC doc are his name, age, city of residence and salary - all public info in secondary sources. As for it being complicated, it is a supplement to secondary sources for readers who want to learn more details on their own. The wiki text itself doesn't attempt to interpret the primary source. These seem like reasonable positions, so I wonder if the policy here is being interpreted as a literal rule rather than with common sense which is how policies should be handled according to WP:POLICY: "Policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense." -- GreenC 20:27, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

This policy is meant to cover all cases, not just this one. (Think about cases of rape, incest, or murder, where there is not only the subject but victims, witnesses, experts, family, children... Not to mention lawyers and court officials.) In all my time here, I have never seen an exception. We're a tertiary source, which means we try as best as possible to remain three times removed from the subject. In other words, we let the primary sources do the notable thing, secondary sources do their original research to investigate and report about the thing, and we summarize what the secondary sources say, trusting them to do their due diligence so we don't have to. (And "due diligence" has a very specific legal definition, called covering our butts.) I'll also note that while BLP works in accordance with all other policies, it ultimately trumps all other policies. Zaereth (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to drop this as it would require an RfC and it's not worth it, the secondary sources themselves link to the court filings so there is nothing really lost just less convenient and I think most users would settle on that as a middle ground solution. BTW I still believe the wording of "assert" should be researched, who wrote that and what did they mean by it, because it is definitely setting off warning bells. The word assert is often used in Wikipedia parlance to differentiate an opinion vs. factual and it would make sense in this context to be used that way (IMO). -- GreenC 16:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Well, that's really the point. There is nothing lost by removing the court documents, so why have them? Writing is not always convenient. Spend a few years watching this page and it may start to become apparent the reasoning behind all the rules. Every single sentence has multiple cases that made them necessary. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive281#Bobby_Beausoleil, or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive281#Mary_Kay_Letourneau for two just recently. If we start making exceptions simply because it's already covered in reliable sources somewhere, we open the door to a ton of needless and pointless bickering, OR, synth, and people trying to right great wrongs and soap-box their own views on what should be. Go through the history of BLP and you can probably find out exactly when and why this was added.

Funny thing about words is people often try to impose their own particular feelings about them into the meaning, or take the word too literally in context. People often think alloy wheel should be renamed, because steel is also an alloy, or that the plural of Kelvin should be Kelvins. Nobody sat down one day and decided the meaning of any word. Language evolves over time in whatever way it does. Dictionaries just go around and find every possible definition of the word based on how it's used in context. No dictionary or encyclopedia has ever been able to control, manipulate, or enforce the changing language, or else we'd still be speaking Old English right now. It would be pointless to write policy in some wiki-jargon known only to insiders when the words in policy should all match the dictionary definition so everyone can understand them, or else we'll all have to hire wikilaywers to argue anything for us.

Assert is derived from the Latin word serere meaning "to join". When combined with the Latin prefix ad- (toward), as in adserere it meant "a claim of fact or opinion". Serere was introduced into English during Old English when the Romans invaded. The English shortened the word and added the suffix -t to make it into a noun, and the Latin meaning (to join) became the English meaning (to sow, to knit, to thrust into, as a needle). Then, when converted into a verb, sert was combined with other English prefixes such as in- (insert, or thrust into) de- (desert, or thrust apart from), ex- (exert, to thrust out from), or as- (Old English alswa or "as well, also"). Thus, the word "assert" (to thrust into also) meant to jump into a conversation. By Middle English, the meaning hadn't changed much, but meant more to jump in forcefully or with authority. It's also around this time that the word began to be used to describe the behavior of acting with authority as well, and by the late Middle Ages, the meaning of "assert" became to "to claim, speak, or behave with authority". This meaning hasn't changed much since, except today the behavior of being assertive is assoiciated as being the primary (cause) rather than the subordinate (effect) rather than the other way around as it originally was. I hope that is sufficient research for you. Zaereth (talk) 02:03, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Right. Let the reporters do the reporting and investigating. We just summarize the reports, not dig up the details. Zaereth (talk) 18:56, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Umar Farooq Zahoor[edit]

Seriously violates WP:BLP and not even a notable guy. A deletion discussion is going on AFD. - ToT89 (talk) 05:41, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP, though if the article has BLP issues (I am of the view it does not have any blatant ones) that should be addressed. Note however that, while bringing the attention of the noticeboard to an AfD is allowed, stating your opinion in regards to the AfD during such a notification is akin to WP:CANVASING. SamHolt6 (talk) 11:39, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Shazia Mirza[edit]

Shazia Mirza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Ms Mirza has asked me to alert editors that several key pieces of information on her page are being repeatedly altered incorrectly. I'm not a Wikipedia expert, and if I need to do something specific, please let me know. I am not paid by Ms Mirza, we have simply met a few times and I offered to help. Please be advised that 3rd October 1982 is Ms Mirza's DOB. I have a copy of her redacted passport if required. You will note that there are repeated edits to this information after it is corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cllp1975 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

As editors will see there's been an awful lot of unedifying back and forth at the article, but I note that the current date of birth has only a primary source, which seems to run contrary to WP:BLPPRIMARY. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:33, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

It's now been removed -- I think it should stay that way, but there has been substantial discussion about it on the article talk page. I have left a template there, so many some of those involved may offer alternative views here. MPS1992 (talk) 18:57, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

The source was used purely because a COI editor, Mirza’s publicist Martin Twomey, (who now has I believe 7 sock accounts removed here and here) over several years has repeatedly changed her date of birth without sources and complained on talk pages, each year removing one or two years from her age despite several warnings to stop and several accounts and IP addresses blocked. It was offered to remove her date of birth in compliance with BLP policy which I did temporarily while waiting for a response, but he refused, stating he wanted 1982 as d.o.b. which was clearly impossible from her biographical information and in direct contradiction with other statements he made in past years to @Ron Stowmarket:. For a start this would make her two years younger than the pupils she taught while she was teacher at a secondary school! This seems to be a case of massaging the facts to make her appear younger and has apparently been happening over a number of years, as admitted by her own publicist. A number of her previous citations put her year of birth at 1976 and there was a sort of consensus for using that in lieu of concrete factual evidence but the publicist in question was having none of it. At this point another admin suggested the source, and it took a couple of minutes to find her actual date of birth which appeared to resolve the question. I’m not in the slightest bit surprised to find this brought here (presumably by someone connected with Twomey, if not himself) as 7 sock accounts doesn’t seem to have deterred him. Wikipedia is supposed to be a factual resource and not a PR service for celebrities. Mramoeba (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the long discussion at the talk page. But while it's absolutely clear that she wasn't born in 1982 there doesn't seem to be a reliable secondary source for any other date. So I agree with MPS1992 that it should simply stay off the page for now. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually the most reliable uk broadsheet sources, i.e. the Times, the Guardian the Telegraph and Independent all give 1976 (allowing for one interview that could have fallen either side of her birthday), which was what the page largely says when Twomey isn't involved. As does the New York Times. Mramoeba (talk) 20:49, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

I would be happy with using 1976 based on those four sources. Much better than using a primary source. If people think these dates are themselves based on massaging of the facts then just leave the date out entirely. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:42, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

The "years active" has also been massaged by Twomey from 2000 to 2003 which is inconsistent with the claim "About a year into her stand-up comedy career, after the September 11, 2001 attacks" and the Awards and recognition section. Perhaps a section on her various (and varying) dates of birth would be more appropriate? Cabayi (talk) 23:09, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

• Atik, Nilufer (2018-09-02). "Comedian Shazia Mirza shares the biggest lessons she's learned in life". Daily Mirror. Retrieved 2019-04-05. : "When I was growing up in Birmingham in the 1970 and 80s". So 1982 is obviously false. Cabayi (talk) 23:32, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
• BBC Radio4 Woman's Hour "Comedian Shazia Mirza tells us what it was like being raised in an Asian Muslim household in Birmingham in the 1970s." Cabayi (talk) 23:45, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Freebmd is not a case of WP:BLPPRIMARY. It's a transcription of a primary source. It's also double transcribed & the two transcriptions are checked against each other for verification. Cabayi (talk) 06:53, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Phyllis Chesler[edit]

Kossoh (talk · contribs) / 108.50.156.199 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has, apparently since 2017, been adding a section to this biography accusing Chesler of racism and bigotry. Initially unsourced, the editor is now sourcing the paragraph to a Breitbart News story, Wikipedia's article on Breitbart, and some original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:59, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Adding, Kosoh appears to be doing it in response to an accusation of Chesler's that appears in the biography of Davidson Nicol, which he has repeatedly tried to remove: [2][3][4][5][6] Jayjg ^(talk) 16:53, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Sterling Van Wagenen[edit]

• Sterling Van Wagenen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Child molesting claims and potential libel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.209.86 (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

The claim is sourced to a reliable source.--Auric talk 15:57, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Rick Wiles POV Entire article[edit]

Rick Wiles I believe violates article neutrality. Even with citations, none of them are factual and neutral IMHO. Dprophitjr (talk) 21:04, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Texe Marrs[edit]

Somebody is always changing the page about Texe Marrs. A long-time co-worker with Texe Marrs tries to set the record straight, but a few hours later the lies are back. Why is this allowed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.42.87.207 (talk) 00:55, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Try to discuss it at the article's talkpage, but be more specific. If you are talking about edits like this [7], it does not seem that all of those points in the lead are adequatly sourced in the article text, so improvements should be made. Nothing about "end times conspiracy theory" for example, and "anti-Illuminati" is a little weird. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:58, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Shakti Mishra Indian Youtuber[edit]

Shakti mishra is a Indian youtuber & a business man. Was born in bihar region of India. https://youtube.com/smartideas is worlds largest business channel on youtube. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4063:218A:14E1:0:0:27AD:30A1 (talk) 09:23, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

If you want to try to create a WP-article on this person, first read WP:Your first article carefully. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:38, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Zak Smith[edit]

I'm asking for any comments on Zak Smith#Personal life which has been controversial. There is a strong consensus on the talk page to include this paragraph. Thank you — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:15, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Geithner's payday loans[edit]

CBS News thought it was noteworthy to contrast Timothy Geithner's nominal stance against payday lending usury during his time at Treasury with Warburg Pincus's Mariner division's heavy involvement in it. I'd like to know whether other editors think it's noteworthy or not. EllenCT (talk) 01:53, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Doug Ericksen[edit]

This article has become a WP:COATRACK for controversies with editors (including some established users) placing WP:UNDUE emphasis on controversies (more specifically, recent events and controversies). There are some fundamental WP:NPOV issues with this article that need to be addressed. I tried making some changes yesterday, but was reverted within a few hours. For now, I am not singling out the conduct of any user in particular, but I would appreciate an extra set of eyeballs on this article going forward. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 12:52, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

My comments are at Talk:Doug_Ericksen#WP:BLPN_thread. State legislators, especially part-time ones, typically receive neither significant attention from WP editors nor continuous coverage in the media but you are welcome to add content from a wider period of time. Nothing that you removed was not in the sources that covered it, and your claims of "original synthesis" and "opinionated/author's description" is false. Reywas92^Talk 22:40, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Your BLP argument is specious; you have removed reliably-sourced and neutrally-worded material with just a handwave at BLP, so I've restored it. You have not explained why you claim the material violates any policy; it is well-supported by high-quality sources and does not appear to be worded in a biased manner. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:50, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Asssuming this diff encompasses the material in question, I would ask "... and?" Just because we have an RS stating something about how much a state legislator gets from lobbyists doesn't make it valid for inclusion; its begging a question that isn't there yet in the article. If there was more RSes talking about how Ericksen was seen as an easily-influenced legislator to a point where there was some controversy related to that, sure, then that's fine, but it's a data point without any other context (and we're talking of all of four months here too). (Contrast that to the thread of thought put to the connection to Cambodia, where there's clearly reasons to discuss some of those elements). It's not a 3RR-exemptable BLP issue, but it really doesn't need to be there as it has no context. --Masem (t) 14:58, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

One is welcome to make an argument that it lacks context, and should there be a consensus on the talk page that it doesn't belong, that consensus should, of course, win out. But there doesn't appear to be a "BLP" issue with the material, and thus unilaterally removing it on those purported grounds is not fair play. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Agree there: one gets a single BOLD edit but if that's reverted, its not that much a BLP issue to be exempt from edit warring; consensus needs to be built up on the talk page. --Masem (t) 15:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

BLP violations happen not only when unsourced or unreferenced material is added to a biography of a living person, but also when undue emphasis is placed on certain aspects of the individual's life, such as controversies and criticism, or when even reliable sources have been misrepresented. The onus of ensuring neutrality of an article is on those who continue to add material that is critical, rather than those who point out the issues to them. The Arbitration Committee has reiterated the "do no harm" principle in the Editing of Biographies of Living Persons case (originally stated in the badlydrawnjeff case):

Wikipedia articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Wikipedia editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. In cases where the appropriateness of material regarding a living person is questioned, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm." This means, among other things, that such material should be removed until a decision to include it is reached, rather than being included until a decision to remove it is reached.

I am attempting to discuss these changes on the talk page of the article. Editors watching this page are requested to keep an eye on the discussion and intervene when necessary. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 06:47, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Christina Hoff Sommers[edit]

Sorry, as we've been here before, but there's a relatively minor but ongoing dispute that could do with some other opinions to resolve. For some time the Christina Hoff Sommers article has had a section describing her as an antifeminist. Specifically:

Some authors have called her works and positions antifeminist. The feminist philosopher Alison Jaggar writes that in rejecting the theoretical distinction between sex and gender, "Sommers rejected one of the distinctive conceptual innovations of second wave Western feminism" and that as the concept of gender is relied on by "virtually all" modern feminists, "the conclusion that Sommers is an anti-feminist instead of a feminist is difficult to avoid".

There's no problem with this per se - she is often described as anti-feminist and it is a valid view. However, Sommers disagreed with the characterization, so based on a Tweet she posted stating that the claim in the Wikipedia article was wrong, we included her denial on the end saying simply "Sommers rejects such claim" since 2016. That was recently removed by an editor.

Currently we say that she is characterized as an antifeminist, but don't say that she denies this. We have three suggested sources we can use:

1. Her tweet, where she wrote "My Wikipedia profile now calls me an "opponent" of feminism. Not so. Strong proponent of equality feminism--always." [8]
2. Cathy Young in Commentary (1994) "Sommers repeatedly stresses that she herself is no anti-feminist. Rather, 'I am a feminist who does not like what feminism has become.'" [9]
3. Alision Jagger "Sommers maintains that she is a liberal feminist after the model of John Stuart Mill" [10]

All three have been opposed as additions, #1 because it is a primary source, #2 because it was published in 1994 and the claims we are using are from 2001+ so it is argued that using it would be WP:SYNTH; and #3 because it is undue and that saying "Sommers views herself as a feminist" is misrepresenting the source material.

Given that this is a BLP, is it undue to briefly include her denial of the characterization, even though many sources describe her as antifeminist? If so, are any of the three sources usable for this? - Bilby (talk) 01:50, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

A very important point that you are missing in this summary is that the article goes into great detail about the brand of feminism that Sommers is known for, the sort of feminism she espouses. So it's not critically important to say that she disagrees with contrary opinions, like it would be if her views were not given a nice, big platform. Second, a tweet is not a much of a source for this sort of thing. In effect, we would be telling the reader that 20+ scholars describing Sommers as working against feminism, published by very reliable sources, are equal in importance to one brief denial tweet from Sommers. Binksternet (talk) 02:09, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

It is 100% required to include any self-denial claims in response to criticizism to a person as long as it can be reliably sourced to that person. The two book references are better sources, but the tweet from her verified account is just as good for this purpose. To not include this criticism is us saying in WP's voice that she's "guilty until proven innocent" to speak. Obviously, her statements only need a sentence or two, per UNDUE, but they cannot be ignored under BLP Requirements. --Masem (t) 02:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's required. WP:PUBLICFIGURE says we should include denials of "allegations". The examples given are "John Doe had a messy divorce" and "A politician is alleged to have had an affair". That isn't on the same level as multiple peer-reviewed academic sources critiquing someone's self-created public image as a woman's-rights advocate (which is what a feminist is). Besides the scholarly sources in the article saying Hoff Sommers is an antifeminist, there are many more in the archives. Hoff Sommers wasn't even responding to these scholars; she was criticizing her Wikipedia bio for calling her an "opponent of feminism". Well, it didn't exactly say that, and certainly doesn't say so now. We're not required to catalogue people's complaints about our work, certainly not in mainspace. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:39, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Being called any sort of label against a public figure is an accusation. Labels like "anti-feminist" are derogatory, so the public figure being labeled should have their statement why they deny that allegation. UNDUE still applies, and the weight of the scholars calling her stance get the attention, just can't eliminate hers. --Masem (t) 03:54, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Fine, except that Hoff Sommers didn't deny any specific allegation; or rather, the allegation doesn't seem to exist. The closest thing would be where her Wikipedia page said she was "known for her opposition to late 20th-century feminism in contemporary American culture". That text is long gone, so why are we entertaining her response to it? Her tweet has nothing to do with any of the academic sources in the article or on the talk page. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:09, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree that a specific response to a claim made that we don't include, we should not include the response either. Its basicly that from a BLP standpoint, if we have appropriate coverage to include criticism of that person, then we should strive to find and include any statement by that person if they have denied such claims. --Masem (t) 04:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

And to quickly add: UNDUE still fully applies. We have to add at least reasonable statement or brief quote from the BLP in such cases, but we do not at all have to give the false balance to weight. 20 scholars vs 1 BLP means that the criticism is going to likely have a good chunk of material over a sentence or less from the BLP. --Masem (t) 04:26, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree, as long as someone can show where Hoff Sommers responds specifically to any of her academic critics. I've asked repeatedly on the talk page for such a source, but none have been provided so far. Incidentally, "opposition to late 20th-century feminism" is her actual stance, as quoted by Young ("I am a feminist who does not like what feminism has become".) In the book she goes on: "The new gender feminism is badly in need of scrutiny. Only forthright appraisals can diminish its inordinate and divisive influence." (Here "gender feminism" is Hoff Sommers' own term for "the prevailing ideology among contemporary feminist philosophers and leaders".) —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:07, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I think there is something to be said that if there are claims that can be taken as negative or derogatory in a specific topic area, and that BLP responds not directly to that but still self-stating her view to clarify her stance to no specific complaint, that's still valid for a sentence within UNDUE. I can't say too much for Summers here, but say we have a person who everyone else calls pro-gun rights which is commented with scorn or the like, and that BLP comes out to say 'I'm more about rights for self-defense to justify gun ownership", that would be reasonable to include as a sentence. But that's drifting off topic. There's at least two sources with Summer's own words that should support a sentence in her article after outlining how academia talks about her stance on feminism. Clearly few others support her stance, so BLP demands some inclusion but UNDUE is the driving force for how much to include. --Masem (t) 05:12, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

That's fair, but I definitely would not count the 2014 tweet as a usable source per WP:BLPSELFPUB. Besides the questionable accuracy, I think it counts as "unduly self-serving" given that Hoff Sommers' reputation – and income – rest on the idea that she's a contrarian feminist sticking it to the feminist "establishment". —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

There is a distinction that should be noted between a brief and pointed rebuttal and a press release or personal website. Bus stop (talk) 14:38, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

There is a distinction, yes, but in terms of UNDUE, a singular brief rebuttal, and a singular 20-page rant would carry the same WEIGHT in term of adding roughly a sentence that says "BLP denies these claims" or "BLP calls themselves (this instead)." Its necessary to include that sentence but we're not going to artificially allow more to be said because it's coming from a 20-page rant. --Masem (t) 14:45, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

In said "rebuttal", Hoff Sommers was either (A) misconstruing what the article said, or (B) contradicting her own published statements. Not to belabor the point, but she hasn't denied any specific claims that I've seen. The latest talk page proposal was to add, "Although Sommers views herself as a feminist ..." I would be more amenable to something like that, adding "liberal feminist" per Jaggar and other sources, e.g. [11]. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:39, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

She would be an authority on whether she is a feminist or not. I don't think the term "feminist" has as strict a definition as our dispute might suggest. Sommers asserts that she is a feminist. Certain sources assert that Sommers is a feminist. The reader is apprised of this seeming contradiction by including assertions from both sides of the question as to whether Sommers is or is not a feminist. We should not be smoothing over the dispute, rather we should be highlighting it. The dispute is important. It involves both Sommers and the definition of feminism. Bus stop (talk) 02:37, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I think reputable scholars in the area of sociology and gender studies would be the real authorities on who is and who isn't a feminist. And we have many to quote from. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:33, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I take issue with Masem's characterization of the antifeminist label as an "accusation" or "allegation" or a "derogatory" term. Rather, it is an accurate scholarly evaluation based on research and analysis. Binksternet (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I'm now inclined to disagree with that. It is a viable view, but there is a case for saying that equity feminism is feminist - certainly it is taken as such in much of the literature. It is arguably not a good feminist stance, or incompatible with other feminist stances, but the strong emphasis on providing equal rights to women in countries where the legal system discriminates is arguably a feminist stance. If there's a chance of that, describing a person who argues for women's rights as anti-feminist is something that they might see as derogatory. - Bilby (talk) 20:32, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

That begs the question of whether Hoff Sommers actually argues for women's rights, whether in theory or in practice. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

As I've said on the article talk page, I think Bilby has the right of this question in that CHS's denial of being antifeminist (or, alternatively, claim to be a feminist) deserves more than zero space in the article text. Also if I'm keeping score correctly, those in favor of leaving that information out are contending or have contended that being called an antifeminist is not an "accusation," "allegation," or "derogatory," but denying that one is an antifeminist is "unduly self-serving." Cute. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 23:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Or to put it another way, if you think you're a feminist, it is an offense for someone to say that you are not a feminist. The refutation of that offensive characterization warrants space in the article. Christina Hoff Sommers is defending herself against the claim that she is not a feminist and that defense should be noted in the article. Bus stop (talk) 02:41, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

If you believe you are Queen of Sheba, is it "offensive" for me to say that you're not? It's not about whether anyone takes offense at the characterization, but about sticking to the most reliable sources. I've asked this before, but since it keeps coming up, where exactly did Hoff Sommers "defend" herself against any claims by her critics? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

You know the answer to that. The one we've focused on is her statement to Young that she is "no antifeminist". She also did the same in her tweet, and she does so whenever she states that she is an equity feminist. Even Jagger acknowledges that Sommers views herself as a feminist, albeit a "liberal feminist". It is not a mystery that Sommers views herself as a feminist, not as an antifeminist. - Bilby (talk) 05:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Those are actually two separate things. It would be original research to interpret someone saying "I'm an equity feminist" to mean "I'm not an antifeminist". I don't know why you keep saying that the statement quoted by Young is a response to critics (it appears to be Young's paraphrase, not a statement by Hoff Sommers; Young's piece was a book review, not an interview). That piece was published in 1994, so which critics exactly was Hoff Sommers responding to? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

You can disagree with the specific person, or you can disagree with the claim being made. Sommers has long disagreed with the claim that she is an antifeminist - at least since 1994. It is not WP:OP to draw a parallel between Sommers saying "I am not a antifeminist" and someone else saying "Sommers is an antifeminist", even if Sommers is not specifically referencing the second person. - Bilby (talk) 07:14, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Original research means any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources. That definitely includes drawing any parallels between what Hoff Sommers said in 1994 and what someone else said 20 years later. Young writes, "Sommers repeatedly stresses that she herself is no anti-feminist." Well, why do we care? Who was calling her that in 1994, and did Hoff Sommers even say that, or is it just Young's interpretation? If she did say it, there ought to be better sources for it. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:47, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Source 1 states that Sommers "stresses that she ... is no antifeminist". Source 2 states that in the opinion of the author "Sommers is an antifeminist". It is sky-is-blue stuff to say that Sommers disagrees with the antifeminist label. - Bilby (talk) 08:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

That's a bit of a paradox. If O.J. Simpson had said in in 1979, "When I'm charged with murder someday, I didn't do it, ha ha", we wouldn't need to put that in his biography. If it's such "sky-is-blue stuff", it should be easy to find notable people using that label before 1994. There's apparently a passing use of the term to refer to Hoff Sommers in 1993 here, but I doubt this one use would spur Hoff Sommers to "repeatedly" contradict it.

On that note, Young is not even the best source for a biography; she's summarizing the book, not describing Hoff Sommers as a person. How do we know she's paraphrasing accurately? if Hoff Sommers repeatedly said that in her book, it should be easy to find. Can anyone find it? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

As I understand it, we can't use Sommers' own words, because there needs to be a secondary source. But we can't use Young (a secondary source for Sommers' stance) because we don't know if it is accurate in saying that Sommers denies being an antifeminist, as we need Sommers' own words. - Bilby (talk) 13:10, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I take that to mean we don't know she actually said it or where. Good to know. I've already stated my misgivings about Young as a secondary source on the talk page. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:31, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

As I understand it, we can't use Sommers' own words, because there needs to be a secondary source. Not correct: in the context of a self-statement to counter what others have said about her, an SPS from Sommers is perfectly fine to use, just that we treat it with the appropriate UNDUE concern, in that her sole opinion should not outweight what several RSes have otherwise said about her. See WP:BLPSPS. --Masem (t) 20:35, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

...a self-statement to counter what others have said about her... That's the whole point; which "others" are we talking about exactly? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

For the record, I'd be fine with adding a statement such as Although Sommers describes herself as a liberal feminist, since we now have a couple of good sources for that: [12][13] —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC) {edited 21:05, 9 April 2019 (UTC))

As an aside, there's nothing in BLP policy about "offending" people. We are free to include well-sourced material "even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it". —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:54, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

That statement in BOP has to be considered in context of UNDUE and context. Bringing up a sourced criticism with no other context to the person is probably not important or appropriate to include. Here for Sommers she is tied to fix missions around feminism so it is reasonable to include sourced criticism of her views on it. --Masem (t) 08:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Starke Hathaway: if I went around writing books and giving lectures saying I was the original Bozo the Clown and that all the other Bozos were frauds, despite expert consensus to the contrary, being paid handsomely for it all the while, and then tweeted out that all the people saying I wasn't are a bunch of haters, 'cause I'm the REAL Bozo the Clown, would that not be self-serving? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:26, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Nice analogy, but unrelated to Sommers. The situation with Sommers' stance is much more complex and nuanced. - Bilby (talk) 07:16, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

More easily, whether someone is Bozo is an objective statement with no alternative meanings. Whereas if someone is a feminist is subjective, depending on what definitions you use. --Masem (t) 08:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, well, the point of the analogy is to highlight the inherent conflict of interest, not to literally equate feminism with being a famous TV clown. Substitute "discoverer of cold fusion" or "inventor of Coca-Cola", it doesn't matter. The fact is, Hoff Sommers being seen as a feminist is central to her personal brand; her YouTube series is called "Factual Feminist", for crying out loud. She absolutely has a financial and reputational stake in maintaining that image. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Substitute "discoverer of cold fusion" or "inventor of Coca-Cola", it doesn't matter. Well, it does matter, because both of those would still be completely missing the point. A closer analogy would be someone calling themselves a fan of Bozo the Clown despite a chorus of people insisting she wasn't a REAL fan. 199.247.46.74 (talk) 10:20, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

if I went around writing books and giving lectures saying I was the original Bozo the Clown and that all the other Bozos were frauds, despite expert consensus to the contrary, being paid handsomely for it all the while, and then tweeted out that all the people saying I wasn't are a bunch of haters, 'cause I'm the REAL Bozo the Clown, would that not be self-serving? Well, no. For one, the standard is for exclusion is something being not just self-serving but unduly self-serving. But also, if doing this was something you were notable for, it would be downright bizarre to detail all of the opinions of non-Bozosity and not to include your claim to being Bozo in your wikipedia article no matter how many disagreed. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 10:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Fine, as long as we're talking about Hoff Sommers' claim to being a "liberal" or "equity" feminist, and not the implicit rebuttal of criticism (e.g. "denies" or "rejects"). We have better sources for the former claim than a tweet anyway. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:27, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

"The fact is, Hoff Sommers being seen as a feminist is central to her personal brand; her YouTube series is called "Factual Feminist", for crying out loud. She absolutely has a financial and reputational stake in maintaining that image." I don't think we are concerned with personal brands or financial interests. I think we are discussing the ill-defined ideology called "feminism". The defining of the term is where the various participants are finding contention. Calling someone anti-feminist or not-a-feminist involves positing a definition of the term feminism.

It so happens that in a biography of Christina Hoff Sommers a definition of feminism is an important point. A policy rule such as "is not unduly self-serving" should be ignored because despite for instance financial interests there is a topic of fundamental intellectual interest—that concerns the shifting definition of feminism.

The subject of the biography is an important participant in a societal discussion. It would be cynical of us to omit material pertaining to attempts to define feminism based on the idea that the subject of the biography has for instance financial interests or that their assertions are "self-serving". Bus stop (talk) 13:27, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

The issue is not whose definition of feminism is more abstractly correct; that belongs in an article such as Equity feminism. The issue is where Hoff Sommers herself fits into the academic and media debate. Regarding "fundamental intellectual interest", it would be highly intellectually misleading to put a one-off tweet about her Wikipedia page anywhere near the peer-reviewed academic sources evaluating her contributions. If anyone could find similarly reliable sources discussing Hoff Sommers' self-description and treating her as an "important participant" in the societal debate, this discussion could end now. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

The "the peer-reviewed academic sources" have as much vested interest in the ever-shifting definition of "feminism" as does Christina Hoff Sommers. We find this at Camille Paglia: "Christina Hoff Sommers relates that when Paglia appeared at a Brown University forum, feminists signed a petition censuring her and demanding an investigation into procedures for inviting speakers to the campus." Bus stop (talk) 21:36, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

This isn't about feminists signing a petition. This is about the views of the most reliable sources. The idea that they have a "vested interest" is like saying climate scientists are just in it for the money. It's anti-intellectualist claptrap. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

"The idea that they have a 'vested interest' is like saying climate scientists are just in it for the money." But I haven't said that "the peer-reviewed academic sources" are "in it" for the money whereas you have said "She absolutely has a financial and reputational stake in maintaining that image" and you have said "Besides the questionable accuracy, I think it counts as 'unduly self-serving' given that Hoff Sommers' reputation – and income – rest on the idea that she's a contrarian feminist sticking it to the feminist 'establishment'." You are using terms like "financial" and "income" in reference to Hoff Sommers. I think it is the ever-shifting definition of "feminism" that is up for grabs. I don't think there is a monetary factor. Bus stop (talk) 02:32, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

You're free to disagree with my assessment. But unlike her scholarly critics, Hoff Sommers gets her views out though the mass media rather than academic publishers. She hasn't held a university post in over 20 years. Even before that, she was described as the "most well-funded critic of women's studies in the popular press", presenting herself as an authentic feminist while receiving grant money from several right-wing foundations for her "attack on academic feminism". So let's please not imply any false equivalences here. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:25, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

She "puts her views out though the mass media rather than academic publishers precisely because "[s]he hasn't held a university post in over 20 years". And it would be incorrect to say that she puts her views out though only through mass media. She writes, she speaks, and yes—she uses Twitter. Don't we see a situation that is similar concerning Camille Paglia? I think it is ludicrous to tell someone they are not a feminist. Yet we find "Some feminist critics have characterized Paglia as an 'anti-feminist feminist', critical of central features of much contemporary feminism but holding out 'her own special variety of feminist affirmation'." Is it not obvious that there are definitions of "feminism" out there at variance with one another? Sommers and Paglia are feminists rejected by a current group issuing edicts on who is and isn't a feminist. For the purposes of a Wiki biography of Sommers we don't have to get bogged down in internecine squabbling. The question here is whether we can include a tweet. She asserts what her position is on feminism: "My Wikipedia profile now calls me an 'opponent' of feminism. Not so. Strong proponent of equality feminism--always." I think that tweet is valid for inclusion.

A pronouncement that someone is not a feminist is totally stupid. Do we find Sommers and Paglia saying that someone is not a feminist? It is stupid. An intelligent person takes issue with specific points of disagreement. Our article should be noting that there is dialogue among members of a community concerned with feminism in which it has been claimed by some that Sommers is not a feminist. The article should be noting that Sommers responded to such claims by saying that indeed she is a feminist. Most other details about this squabbling are extraneous. A tweet is simply a means expression. It is succinct and it squarely addresses the question. I will note that Sommers is entirely an authority on whether she is a feminist or not. This is a term from the humanities and social sciences. This is not a term from hard science. We aren't debating whether the requirements of feminism are fulfilled by a given person's activities and statements. In the final analysis this is all opinion. Bus stop (talk) 01:34, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Sommers responded to such claims... There's no proof of that in the sources available. Her tweet was about Wikipedia, not some academics. The idea that there's a feminist cabal issuing "edicts" is completely unfounded; there are simply many feminist ideologies that often conflict with one another. Nor are we saying anything about what Hoff Sommers is or isn't. We're talking about due weight, conflicts of interest, and reliable sources. Regardless of any meta-issues about feminism (or Camille Paglia – what does she have to do with anything?), we stick to the most reliable sources when describing subjects.

Hoff Sommers' first book, while she was still a professor, was put out by Simon & Schuster, who have published everyone from P.G. Wodehouse to Donald Trump. Discussing Hoff Sommers and her cohorts, Patrice McDermott writes, "It is significant, then, that even though they critique an academic field, these new critics of feminism chose to have their work published and reviewed by popular media that, for the most part, uncritically share their ... assumptions." Hoff Sommers later left academia for a conservative think thank. Whatever her reasons, I don't think we want to ignore RS criteria just to give her a break, and Wikipedia never called her an "opponent of feminism", so I don't know why we're even discussing that issue. (See my latest reply below on the idea of balancing the various "opinions".) —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Do we find Sommers and Paglia saying that someone is not a feminist? Not that it matters, but Hoff Sommers' first book is called Who Stole Feminism? I think that says quite a lot about who she does and doesn't consider a "real" feminist. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:08, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

There can be antagonism on both sides. But a book about the current state of feminism is not necessarily a personal attack on one person. Arguments can be couched in general discussions that can have intellectual underpinnings. On the other hand arguments can consist of telling someone they are an "anti-feminist". I find one argument constructive and the other destructive.

"Camille Paglia – what does she have to do with anything?" I think it is stupid for one person to tell another person that they are not a feminist. Articles on Paglia and on Sommers are stating that others say that they are not feminists. That is a minor point and even a stupid point. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that Paglia and Sommers are feminists. The level of discourse is a problem which should be taken into account. You suggest below in "Proposed addition" that our article go on at length on a stupid point: that Sommers may not be a feminist. Bus stop (talk) 04:28, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• What a long discussion. I agree with Bus Stop and Masem that we need to place her own statement that she considers herself a feminist (or not an anti-feminist) in the article. Whether or not being anti-feminist is derogatory is a matter of opinion, clearly CHS thinks it is, and wants to defend herself from it. Which source to use? Honestly, I think any would do, but if the issue is in this much doubt, all of them. --GRuban (talk) 21:10, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Except the sources all say different things. "Sommers repeatedly stresses that she herself is no anti-feminist" and "Sommers maintains that she is a liberal feminist" are not the same thing. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:11, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
• I agree also. Many of the arguments don't even make sense, such as "it would be highly intellectually misleading to put a one-off tweet about her Wikipedia page anywhere near the peer-reviewed academic sources...". What is that even supposed to mean? That intellectuals can't see what everyone else can? If peer-reviewed sources refer to Richard Nixon as a criminal, and Nixon defends himself saying, "I am not a criminal" whether we believe him or not his reaction to the accusations are indeed relevant to the article, not only for balance and weight but also because it gives the reader some insight into the person. Beyond that, categorization unwittingly leads to many syllogistic fallacies, as demonstrated above, which is why most psychologist seem to agree that it's the neurological root of prejudices and stereotyping. Labels like this are far too subjective, meaning different things to different people, but all meant to cover individuality with a vague title. In most cases like this, especially involving sexuality, there is rarely a "black and white", purely male or female view. (For instance, to the Navajo there are four sexes, while in modern psychology it is recognized that sexuality covers an entire spectrum.) If the subject of an article disagrees with a particular label, their disagreement most certainly should be included. Zaereth (talk) 21:37, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Actually, Hoff Sommers hasn't disagreed with any "label". Wikipedia never called her an "opponent of feminism". No one has shown her directly disputing the label "antifeminist". —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:11, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
    • We shouldn't be getting into the details of what a "feminist" is on Sommers' page. We have to recognize there's a spectrum of definitions related to the term, and some of these are being brought up in term's of criticism about Sommers. Sommers hasn't necessary addressed any specify claim but has spoke of her position within that spectrum. As long as any of this criticism towards Sommers or Sommers' own statements are all fitting in this pool of ideas that "feminist" represents, it should be included. Let a reader figure out that (perhaps) Sommers' defense evades the criticism raised by others, we'll just put the evidence out there for the reader to decide. --Masem (t) 22:21, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
      • "We report, you decide" is manifestly the wrong approach. The whole point of an encyclopedia is to present a summary of accepted knowledge regarding the subject. Once again, I'd be fine with the statement (Although) Sommers describes herself as a liberal feminist... —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
        • But that's the essence of our WP:NOR policy. We know there's a lot of sources we can use to describe how Sommers and others see Sommers' stance about feminism. We are not here to clear that up since no singular RS tries to do that. So instead, lay it out with respect to UNDUE/WEIGHT, and let readers figure it out. The problem with trying to anything more is that then also puts WP voicing support or opposition to any of those points of view, which is against NPOV as well. --Masem (t) 22:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
          • I have no problem saying how Hoff Sommers describes her "stance about feminism" generally. The trouble is when we imply she's rebutted certain criticisms when that isn't supported by the sources. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:48, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
        • Sangdeboeuf—you write "[t]he whole point of an encyclopedia is to present a summary of accepted knowledge regarding the subject." That Sommers is or isn't a feminist is not "accepted knowledge" because it isn't even "knowledge". There is enough fluidity in the term "feminism" for valid debate over the meaning of that term to take place within a community of people concerned with women's issues. Bus stop (talk) 02:09, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
          • The "knowledge" here is that "Persons X, Y, and Z describe Hoff Sommers as anti-feminist". We're not making any pronouncements in Wikipedia's voice. That doesn't mean both sides' opinions are equally valid, any more than my Aunt Fanny's opinions about interest rates are equally as valid as Ben Bernanke's. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:21, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
            • "that doesn't mean both sides' opinions are equally valid" No one has said "both sides' opinions are equally valid". You are arguing for omitting a tweet in which Sommers asserts "My Wikipedia profile now calls me an 'opponent' of feminism. Not so. Strong proponent of equality feminism--always." She is addressing a question as to whether she is a feminist or not. The inclusion of her assertion tells the reader that in her opinion she is a "Strong proponent of equality feminism--always." In my opinion, her opinion on whether she is a feminist is valid for inclusion in our article. No one said it was "equally valid". What would "equally valid" mean in reference to a term that is open to a variety of meanings? Also, you say above "Wikipedia never called her an 'opponent of feminism'." I don't think we mind if Sommers incorrectly states that "My Wikipedia profile now calls me an 'opponent' of feminism." The material should be included because it pertains to the claims made by some that she is not a feminist. Bus stop (talk) 04:18, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
              • ...it pertains to the claims made by some that she is not a feminist... Please provide a published, reliable source that says so; otherwise, to suggest this is so would be improper synthesis. We have better sources for the "liberal/equality feminist" label anyway, e.g. [14][15][16][17]. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:47, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
                • I don't think synthesis applies to reasoning presented on a Talk page or in this instance the WP:BLPN. Our article contained the line "Some authors have called her works and positions antifeminist." I responded to that claim or any related claim by saying on this Talk page that "The material should be included because it pertains to the claims made by some that she is not a feminist." I am presenting reasoning on a Talk page. This would not be an instance of synthesis. Bus stop (talk) 13:22, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposed addition[edit]

Here's my suggestion for how to improve the paragraph discussed above (proposed addition in bold):

Sommers has described herself as an equity feminist,^[1] equality feminist,^[2][3] and liberal feminist.^[4][5] However, some authors have called her works and positions antifeminist.^[6][7][8] The feminist philosopher Alison Jaggar writes that in rejecting the theoretical distinction between sex as a set of physiological traits and gender as a set of social identities, "Sommers rejected one of the distinctive conceptual innovations of second wave Western feminism" and that as the concept of gender is relied on by "virtually all" modern feminists, "the conclusion that Sommers is an anti-feminist instead of a feminist is difficult to avoid".^[5]

Sources

^ Gring‐Pemble, Lisa M.; Blair, Diane M. (1 September 2000). "Best‐selling feminisms: The rhetorical production of popular press feminists' romantic quest". Communication Quarterly. 48 (4): 360–379. doi:10.1080/01463370009385604. ISSN 0146-3373. ^ McKenna, Erin; Pratt, Scott L. (2015). American Philosophy: From Wounded Knee to the Present. London, UK: Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 308. ISBN 978-1-44-118375-0. ^ Meloy, Michelle L.; Miller, Susan L. (2010). The Victimization of Women: Law, Policies, and Politics. New York, N.Y.: Oxford University Press. p. 32. ISBN 978-0-19-976510-2. ^ Loptson, Peter (2006). Theories of Human Nature (3rd ed.). Peterborough, Ont.: Broadview Press. p. 221. ISBN 978-1-46-040203-0. ^ a b Jaggar, Alison M. (2006). "Whose Politics? Who's Correct?". In Burns, Lynda. Feminist Alliances. Amsterdam: Rodopi. p. 20. ISBN 978-9-04-201728-3. ^ Vint, Sherryl (March 1, 2010). "6: Joanna Russ's The Two of Them in an Age of Third-wave Feminism". In Mendlesohn, Farah. on Joanna Russ. Wesleyan University Press. pp. 142–. ISBN 9780819569684. Retrieved June 1, 2015. some third-wave concerns can be translated into a distinctly antifeminist agenda such as that put forward by Roiphe or by Hoff Sommers ^ Projansky, Sarah (August 1, 2001). "2: The Postfeminist Context: Popular Redefinitions of Feminism, 1980-Present". Watching Rape: Film and Television in Postfeminist Culture. NYU Press. pp. 71–. ISBN 9780814766903. Retrieved June 1, 2015. antifeminist (self-defined) feminists such as Shahrazad Ali, Sylvia Ann Hewlett, Wendy Kaminer, Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge, Katie Roiphe, Christina Hoff Sommers, and Naomi Wolf ^ Anderson, Kristin J. (September 23, 2014). "4: The End of Men and the Boy Crisis". Modern Misogyny: Anti-Feminism in a Post-Feminist Era. Oxford University Press. pp. 74–. ISBN 9780199328178. Retrieved June 1, 2015. Anti-feminist boy-crisis trailblazer Christina Hoff Sommers

Thoughts? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC) (updated 04:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

My thoughts are that this is virtually identical in form and content to the edit you reverted four days ago, thereby prompting this whole BLPN rigmarole. Thanks for that, chief. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 10:15, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any time when Sommers has referred to herself as an "equality feminist". The term she uses - which is quite different - is "equity feminist". - Bilby (talk) 11:07, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I'd be fine with this, assuming we take account Bilby's caveat about spelling. --GRuban (talk) 13:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The article already discusses equity feminism at some length. Sommers, in the tweet we've been arguing about this whole time, says "equality feminism", not "equity feminism". Other times she has used this wording: [18][19][20] Still, if anyone can provide a reliable, secondary source for Sommers calling herself an "equity feminist" (and contrasting it with criticism of her as anti-feminist), I'd be fine with including that. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:21, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

As you say, everything in the article describes her as an "equity feminist", including all of the sources we use, not as an "equality feminist". We could just use "feminist", as per her words "I have been moved to write this book because I am a feminist who does not like what feminism has become" from "Who Stole Feminism", but how about Rhonda Hammer "Sommers ... [situates] herself in the equity feminist team" [21], or simply "Sommers sees herself as an equity feminist" [22] in Gring-Pemble and Blair. - Bilby (talk) 20:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I think both of the latter sources are usable. In the Dartmouth interview, Sommers calls herself both an "equity" and "equality" feminist, so apparently she can't make up her mind which it is. Since the terms have different meanings, I think we should indicate whichever ones reliable sources use, and secondary sources are generally better. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

In which case, let's just go with equity feminist as the term we use in the article, as that is consistent with the rest of what we write as well as more generally in the literature. - Bilby (talk) 01:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Why would we want to omit the other terms just for the sake of consistency with our own article? I would think that such well-sourced information would be a welcome improvement. Can you prove that equity feminist is predominant in the literature? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Can you prove that equality feminism is the main way of defining Sommers? We've been using equity feminism as the proper term for her position everywhere else, why suddenly change it in one place in an article? For example, the articles on Christina Hoff Sommers, Equity feminism, Gender feminism and Liberal feminism. If there is really a dispute, how about we just go with "feminist" and leave out the equity/equality issue? - Bilby (talk) 04:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

We're not "defining Sommers"; we're telling the reader what others call her and what she calls herself. This is in a section titled § Ideas and views, where we should accurately represent her significant views and what others think of them. All the existing labels are well-sourced, so I don't see a reason to omit any. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I see. I missed the edit you just made where you added equity feminist to the list, but opted not to mention this. Well played. I'm a bit surprised that we want to use lots of different terms, but can't just say "feminist", but so be it. - Bilby (talk) 04:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

When one has just read in the lead section that Sommers' positions and writing have been characterized by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy as 'equity feminism', a classical-liberal or libertarian feminist perspective, I don't think it's terribly informative to then say, Sommers calls herself a feminist, full stop. At that point, it's kind of stating the obvious, and if anything raises even more questions.

Depending on context, Sommers might be referred to as an "equity feminist", "liberal feminist", "equality feminist", "classical liberal feminist", "conservative feminist", "post-feminist", "freedom feminist" (there seems to be no end), and yes, "anti-feminist". We don't take a stand on which is the correct or proper label; we just reflect what sources say. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Based on the lead, then, equity feminist is a more specific type of liberty feminist, so the liberty feminist label is redundant. But I don;t care - in order to avoid saying that she simply disagrees with the characterisation as we had before, now we're spending far more time on the issue, using multiple terms and refraining from simply saying that she views herself as a feminist. But I guess after all the mess this has been turned into, at least we're saying something about the label. - Bilby (talk) 06:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Why are you so insistent on accentuating the minor point that some say Sommers is not a feminist? This is what I find incomprehensible. "However, some authors have called her works and positions antifeminist." Is that a point worth noting? "the conclusion that Sommers is an anti-feminist instead of a feminist is difficult to avoid"—not worthy of inclusion on the basis that it is patently stupid. I recognize the value of your proposed language "The feminist philosopher Alison Jaggar writes that in rejecting the theoretical distinction between sex as a set of physiological traits and gender as a set of social identities, 'Sommers rejected one of the distinctive conceptual innovations of second wave Western feminism'." This is substantive, unlike claims that Sommers is not a feminist, claims that are basically just laughable. All material that is supported by reliable sources does not warrant inclusion in an article. Bus stop (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If a large numberof scholars of the movement you have chosen to criticize in the popular press describe you as working against that movement, you don't think that's important to tell the reader? Whether anyone finds it "stupid" or "laughable", BLPs should still respect due weight and include reliably-sourced criticism. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

"working against that movement" A biography isn't about hyperbole. Calling Paglia or Sommers anti-feminist is not to be taken seriously. Yet you are suggesting that we say this not just one, but twice. It is mere hyperbole. It shouldn't be said at all. Our purpose at a biography is not the airing out of dirty laundry. We include material that sheds light on the area in which a person works. Concerning a point of contention we need not include the hyperbolic names that her opponents call her. Bus stop (talk) 20:01, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The proposed wording seems like it addresses the issue. Bus stop: lots of reliable sources discuss it because she has prominently positioned herself feminist critic of feminism - it seems very unlikely that we could justify simply ignoring that debate. Nblund ^talk 18:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi Nblund. You say "it seems very unlikely that we could justify simply ignoring that debate". What "debate"? What debate are you referring to? He said, she said is not a debate. "He said, she said" is merely contradiction. It fails to illuminate and in this instance it is mere hyperbole.

I am accepting of some of the proposed wording but not all of the proposed wording. We should not be saying "However, some authors have called her works and positions antifeminist". Who cares? That is mere hyperbole, only said for dramatic effect, and it illuminates nothing.

Similarly we should not be saying "the conclusion that Sommers is an anti-feminist instead of a feminist is difficult to avoid". Who cares? What does that say about Sommers? That someone has venom for Sommers? What does it illuminate for the reader?

But I am accepting of the sentence which reads "The feminist philosopher Alison Jaggar writes that in rejecting the theoretical distinction between sex as a set of physiological traits and gender as a set of social identities, 'Sommers rejected one of the distinctive conceptual innovations of second wave Western feminism'." That sheds light on an ideological rift in feminism and it explains why Sommers is at odds with "second wave Western feminism".

We don't need to expand on the names people call one another. Is Sommers really an "anti-feminist"? Bus stop (talk) 19:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Sommers is clearly involved in the area of "feminist", but her views of what a "feminist" is is clearly different from what other academics and activists consider. As such the phrasing on the proposed addition is absolutely fine to make it clear that others criticism her own self-description of feminism. Maybe the quote is a bit too much if we're not otherwise directly quoting Sommers, but generally the language is fine. --Masem (t) 20:09, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

"Maybe the quote is a bit too much if we're not otherwise directly quoting Sommers, but generally the language is fine." Do I need to remind you that for some inexplicable reason we are not supposed to include Sommers' tweet asserting that in fact she is a feminist? And why, in the proposed wording, are we told twice that she is an "anti-feminist"? Wouldn't once be ridiculous enough? Bus stop (talk) 20:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

We can't ignore prominent arguments simply because we personally find them inadequate. The central thesis of her most well-known work is that someone has "stolen" feminism, so it's not surprising that Sommers' feminist bona-fides are a perennial topic of discussion in academic and non-academic circles, continuing all the way up to the present day. This may have already been cited, but Sommers' responds to the claim about being an anti-feminist in this AEI interview. Which demonstrates the existence of a debate and may be worth citing here. Nblund ^talk 20:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I accept wording which contains reasoning. "The feminist philosopher Alison Jaggar writes that in rejecting the theoretical distinction between sex as a set of physiological traits and gender as a set of social identities, 'Sommers rejected one of the distinctive conceptual innovations of second wave Western feminism'." That explains that Sommers refuses to accept a distinction between sex and gender that is posited by second wave Western feminism. The reader can follow links to Sex and gender distinction and Second-wave feminism. The mere claim that someone is antifeminist doesn't say anything. It contains no reasoning and nothing can be derived from it. Is misleading and doesn't warrant inclusion. Bus stop (talk) 22:32, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Like I said, Sommers' most prominent work accuses "gender feminists" of having betrayed women and "stolen" feminism. It hardly seems neutral to cover her views and then turn around and decry the unfairness of citing authors who question Sommers' own claim to being a "real" feminist. Maybe you could find an argument you like better: Tom Digby explains his skepticism at length here by noting that "she sees no need for feminist change and is opposed to everyone who is advocating for feminist causes". This view is also echoed by Encyclopedia of Women in Today's World entry on anti-feminism, which calls Sommers an antifeminist because she believes that "the goals of feminism have been met", and that the movement now victimizes boys and men. Both are pretty specific. In any case: I don't think that you're going to convince editors that we should censor the term antifeminist. Nblund ^talk 23:39, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

"I don't think that you're going to convince editors that we should censor the term antifeminist." We should not be using over-the-top language. And yet the language that is proposed for inclusion is twice calling Sommers an "antifeminist". Is there any justification for this? Did the reader not hear it the first time? First we are treated to "However, some authors have called her works and positions antifeminist". And then we are treated to "the conclusion that Sommers is an anti-feminist instead of a feminist is difficult to avoid". Huh? Why would it be necessary to tell the reader twice that Sommers is an "antifeminist"?

Nblund—both of these women are called antifeminists. At Camille Paglia we find "Some feminist critics have characterized Paglia as an 'anti-feminist feminist'". Fortunately for that WP:BLP the reader is only treated to that name-calling once. Bus stop (talk) 00:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• Sangdeboeuf—why are you are you removing that "Sommers describes herself as a feminist" in this edit? And why are you adding a second assertion in this edit that Sommers is an "antifeminist"? Does the reader need to be informed of that twice? In my opinion "antifeminist" amounts to little more than name-calling. But one such assertion should be sufficient in this article. And of course in your above proposed wording you also repeat the assertion that Sommers is an "antifeminist". Bus stop (talk) 13:00, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Gemma O'Doherty[edit]

Gemma O'Doherty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The politics section - paragraph 3 states that views expressed by gemma o'doherty led to quote.. "the cancellation of bookings for her party's meetings" , there is absolutely no evidence in any of the referenced material that Gemma's views had anything to do with her party's meetings being cancelled , in fact the linked reference says that the hotels didn't give any reasons for the cancellations .

The author wrote this and then immediately protected the page from edits by new people , the author was clearly biased in making this unfound assumption and it damages the good name of Gemma O'Doherty

The Irish Examiner is a broadsheet source and generally considered accurate and neutral for political events. (Full disclosure, I'm friends with the jazz singer Sharon Crosbie who is part of the Thomas Crosbie Holdings family, former owners of the Irish Examiner, though that's got pretty much nothing to do with anything). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:30, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi Ritchie333 , where exactly in the Irish Examiner article referenced does it say that the hotels cancelled bookings for Gemma o'doherty's party because of her views ? It doesn't say this anywhere . also is there going to be a seperate heading for each of her views .Irelandwatch (talk) 13:14, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

This I can confirm, the apparent cancellation of books has no mention at all of the tweets related to the Christchurch shooting. (The withdrawls of support statement, on the other hand, does have this and should be kept). It's very likely that the bookings were cancelled because of those statements but we need a source that says that specifically, which is not there. --Masem (t) 14:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

According to the source given, I can see "The Imperial Hotel in Cork insists it will not be hosting a public meeting next week organised by failed presidential candidate Gemma O’Doherty. The hotel broke its silence on the issue after days of pressure and a flood of complaints from people opposed to the ideology of Ms O’Doherty’s Anti-Corruption Ireland party." and "It was due to hold rallies in the Imperial Hotel in Cork on Monday and in the Maritime Hotel in Bantry the following day. The Maritime Hotel is said to have cancelled the Tuesday event." Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:42, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

While cancellation of the bookings are verified, it has zero connection in that source to the tweets about Christchurch, which is what the disputed sentence is clearly implying. You cannot do that per NOR or BLP. --Masem (t) 14:53, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Okay, well as this issue is under discussion, and since I prefer contentious claims like this to have two separate sources (standard journalism practice), I have removed the information per WP:BLP. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:59, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I've put the part back about the councillors withdrawing support - that part was reliably sourced. The rest is gone, and I've tidied up the big laundry list of quotes from the YouTube video. Black Kite (talk) 15:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

hi again , the disputed remark was replaced with this ... " although it is not known if these were directly related to her comments " ... If its not "known" , then WHY add this line in , Wikipedia is supposed to be about FACTS , if something is not known , dont make reference to it , this should be left out , please remove this sentence .. "although it is not known if these were directly related to her comments" , it suggests bias on behalf of the author . thanks Irelandwatch (talk) 15:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

• I've removed it - it does appear a little pointless if we haven't got a reliable reason for the meeting being cancelled. Black Kite (talk) 15:14, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank You , and please remove this part of a section heading that reads "Controversial views on ..." , there is no source given that suggests her views are "controversial" .. I mean Who found them controversial ? when where they found controversial ? why are they controversial ? NO source , No heading , thanks Irelandwatch (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

• You can remove "controversial" if you wish. But I'm pretty sure it's a reasonable descriptor for someone who claims that Cultural Marxism caused the abortion vote, communism caused the Catholic Church paedophilia scandal, the LGBT agenda is child abuse, and that Katherine Zappone is involved in witchcraft. Black Kite (talk) 15:23, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

• In fact, I've removed it. It's fairly obvious they're controversial, so we don't need it. Black Kite (talk) 15:26, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

the problem with using the word controversial is that nearly every topic can be potentially controversial to some person or another .

In fact , according to wikipedia rules , these sections should be left out altogether in order to avoid bias .

Quote "In most cases separate sections devoted to criticism, controversies, or the like should be avoided in an article because these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints. Articles should present the prevailing viewpoints from reliable sources fairly, proportionately, and without bias, whether positive or negative " - Wikipedia:Criticism

so can we remove this section completely

regards Irelandwatch (talk) 15:48, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Would you also like us to mention that she's on record as a practicing Catholic, is kind to animals, and can cure autism by sneezing in one's general direction? No, we can't remove the section completely, because WP:NOTCENSORED. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:17, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Criticism is an essay by a contributor, not a guideline or policy. However, yes, in most cases you'd be correct in that we'd blend negative issues in with the prose. However, this is such a short article (and O'Donnell made the comments and founded her party so recently) that it doesn't really fit in anywhere else in her timeline. Black Kite (talk) 18:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

hi Black Kite , Bastun has altered the paragraph again and added at the end .. "Venues in Cork and Sligo cancelled public meetings that had been booked by ACI" , putting this line here suggests to readers that they did this because of her views on the mosque shooting which we all agree there is no source to support . It is clear that Bastun has a clear agenda (look at his comment above to me) , can you please put this line in context or remove it completely and stop bastun from putting his own spin on the article . Thank You , Irelandwatch (talk) 06:53, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Candace Owens[edit]

Extremely defamatory content is being inserted at Candace Owens. Linking someone to a terrorist attack because she was mentioned in a despicable and unreliable manifesto of the shooter, goes completely against WP:BLPBALANCE. wumbolo ^^^ 22:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

• Dan Murphy, I'm with Wumbolo here. Please stop edit warring over that material in the lead: it's a BLP and we should err on the side of caution. I dropped a warning on your talk page to let you know I'm serious. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 23:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
• Wumbolo, let me reword this: I'm with you if you were to argue that this material in the lead is undue--I thought that's what you removed. I see now you removed everything, and that, I think goes way too far. That the manifesto was "unreliable" or "despicable" means nothing at all: he mentioned her, apparently, and if the sources find it significant enough to discuss we should at least consider its inclusion. Drmies (talk) 23:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Alright. There is a discussion on the talk page about how to properly describe it in the body. There are several issues with the multiple wordings, ranging from SYNTH to context issues. I am most concerned with quoting the shooter verbatim; I do not have a problem with just saying that he mentioned her. I may have overreacted in my revert. wumbolo ^^^ 23:10, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Cool. Again, it seems UNDUE to me to put this in the lead (esp. since the lead right now is basically nothing), and I think Dan Murphy has agreed to not war over this; I hope that y'all can talk this out and find a way to have well-verified material in the article without skewing the lead. Maybe one of you will sit down with a cup of coffee and actually write a real lead--that would be best. Thank you, to both, Drmies (talk) 23:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
• Candace Owens did in fact make international headlines after the attack. She appears to have first become famous after Kanye West praised her, and now again she has made the news. Volunteer Marek, you may want to comment on this discussion. --Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

This, along with her remarks about Hitler, is basically what she's notable for. You court controversy by saying controversial stuff, then why are you surprised that you're known for being controversial? The lede reflects the article and the article reflects the content in reliable sources.

Additionally, any suggestions that the inclusion of Owens in the manifesto was a "joke" or "trolling" should be backed by reliable sources, not original research and speculation by Wikipedia editors.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:41, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm unclear on why Dan Murphy is being referenced in this section.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek The Atlantic is a reliable source. And victim blaming goes against BLP. wumbolo ^^^ 08:52, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

It is, but does it make the connection explicit and is it representative of general sources out there? Also... "victim blaming"? What in the world are you going on about??? Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:34, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The Atlantic quote in my opinion should be included in full. "Though the shooter could be a genuine fan of Owens, who has been known to espouse right-leaning views on immigration and gun control, this reference might be meant to incite Owens’s critics to blame her." Currently the second clause is cut out. See the talk page discussion:[23] --Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:06, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately (?) if somebody is famous for their bad opinions, we generally mention their bad opinions in lede. Similarly for serial killers, con artists, new york times opinion article writers, etc. What somebody is most notable for should be what we discuss in the lede, and in this case they're very notable in that the Christchurch shooter was a big fan. PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I created a thread about this on the talk page, which I think could do with some more eyes. Overall I agree with Wumbolo; we just need to nail down the wording right, to ensure it's both balanced, accurate, and doesn't include so many lengthy quotes. :-) 84percent (talk) 09:04, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• This should only be mentioned briefly and only in the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 13:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• Section related to Christchurch shooter's manifesto definitely needs to be trimmed down. While BLP is true that it does not prevent inclusion of negative info or criticism published by RSes against a BLP, that does not mean that is the minimal bar for include. UNDUE must be respected in relationship to a BLP - BLPs should not be seen as a collection of every potential negative comment that can be sourced to the person. We need to consider how much of an impact it has, how "actionable" the criticism is, and other factors related to UNDUE before including these. In the case of her name being mentioned in the manifesto from Christchurch, it clearly has not amounted to anything yet, so a full paragraph (including the silly criticism that she used emojis in a reply tweet ...) is far too much at this point in time. I don't think it needs to be mentioned at all (her name is not mentioned on the Christchurch shooting page at all) so it seeming is just here because 1) RS has published negative criticism of her and 2) editors without much love of the alt or far-right seem to have little problem with rushing to include this information without being responsible to BLP's higher level of inclusion. --Masem (t) 17:45, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree that putting this in the lead paragraph is excessive, the current wording is particularly problematic because it doesn't really reflect the fact that reliable sources generally questioned the seriousness of the Christchurch shooter's manifesto. The New York Times says this appeared to be a joke, and that needs to be mentioned. I don't think the body section in the current version is all that excessive, but I agree that the point about the emojis is a bit much. Nblund ^talk 18:14, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree. The current lead is less problematic than this version, which omitted the insincerity question, however I don't think the event belongs in the lead at all (even as it's worded now). On the point of the emoji criticism, I agree that it's probably unnecessary, and have been trying to come to a compromise on wording in the article's talk page. 84percent (talk) 03:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Her name being mentioned in the manifesto has amounted to something; it has amounted to her making international headlines. Other than her Hitler comments it sounds like this is what she is most known for around the world. The emojis point may be excessive, but it seems worth pointing out the falsehoods she stated in her response, which have been reported on. The Atlantic: "Though the shooter could be a genuine fan of Owens, who has been known to espouse right-leaning views on immigration and gun control, this reference might be meant to incite Owens’s critics to blame her." She tweeted that she never created any content espousing her views on the 2nd Amendment or Islam, but In fact, she has tweeted about the 2nd Amendment and Islam.[24] Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

The Atlantic quote[edit]

I just mentioned this, but I would like to settle whether to include the full quote from The Atlantic story. Which version do folks support including in the article:

A:

Though the shooter could be a genuine fan of Owens, who has been known to espouse right-leaning views on immigration and gun control, this reference might be meant to incite Owens’s critics to blame her.

B:

"Though the shooter could be a genuine fan of Owens, [...] this reference might be meant to incite Owens’s critics to blame her."

Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:27, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

B. I prefer the latter, because, from my reading, "who has been known to espouse right-leaning views on immigration and gun control" is an introduction of Owens to the reader, and not necessary in the article. 84percent (talk) 05:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

A. I respectfully say that it is absurd to suggest that the line "who has been known to espouse right-leaning views on immigration and gun control" is merely an introduction of Owens to the reader. This line clearly relates Owens to the context of the shooting of Muslim immigrants. A Google search or a quick reading of Owens' Wikipedia article shows she is not particularly known for these topics. She even denies ever having created content on these topics. Although she has "tweeted about Islam, the 2nd Amendment, and gun rights multiple times."[25] I believe removing this line has the effect of pushing a POV. Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Wrong venue. This should be moved to the article's talk page. wumbolo ^^^ 08:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Seeking input from uninvolved editors. This was already discussed at the talk page and went nowhere. --Kolya Butternut (talk) 12:03, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Tarek Bouchamaoui[edit]

• Tarek Bouchamaoui (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

False claims about past involvement of Mr Bouchamaoui with the Ben Ali regime and unfounded tax evasion accusation. This has been repeatedly posted on the platform and is simply slander and defamation. Whoever is repeating these accusation should disclose their identity or stop spreading false news and false accusations. The history trail of edits clearly shows that Mr Bouchamaoui is targeted and accused without any evidence of formal ties with criminal Ben Ali family. Accusation of tax evasion are slander and reference #2 does not demonstrate any involvement of Mr Bouchamaoui in such activities. Mr Bouchamaoui is clearly subject of false accusations and multiple tentatives to correct these false informations in his biography have been removed or reverted by users who are hijacking the personal biography page of Mr. Bouchamaoui.

This is impacting his personal life in negative ways and the page should be corrected and locked away from further random editing to avoid slander and further defamation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:100E:214:A4A6:9A6E:599B:D7FF (talk) 01:47, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

The claims are backed up by a story in The Independent. I see nothing on the surface to disqualify the source. —C.Fred (talk) 01:53, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

There is no evidence of former ties with the Ben Ali Regime other than a random mention in the article which is debatable. Mr Bouchamaoui has not faced any tax evasion charges and AFAIK it is not a crime to have a bank account with USBC...?! I am kindly requesting the removal of these defamation claims or otherwise specify the lack of any evidence or proof to back these allegations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:100E:214:A4A6:9A6E:599B:D7FF (talk) 19:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

The USA Today source is an op/ed column. The Independent is a good news article, but says almost exactly, word for word, what our article says, and that is all. The entire article is really about another person. An accusation of tax fraud is a very serious charge, and per WP:BLPCRIME I think it should probably be removed unless/until a conviction is reported. So far, he wasn't even charged. Zaereth (talk) 19:33, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Accusation of ties with the former Ben Ali regime is also a very serious charge and the news article does not present any reference or any evidence of such. The article could be quoted or referred to but this should not be included as a fact (which is what is eluded to when we read the bio) in the biography of Mr. Bouchamaoui — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:100E:214:A4A6:9A6E:599B:D7FF (talk) 01:26, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• I am all about the BLP but the association was noteworthy enough to be mentioned in a highly respected worldwide newspaper. Maybe C.Fred has some ideas about maybe rephrasing, but I think that we agree that we are not going to sweep this under the rug. Drmies (talk) 01:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
• Found a bit more material, enough to warrant reverting the most recent removal of the information. Drmies (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• the tax evasion accusations are pure defamation. Mr Bouchamaoui has not been charged or found guilty during the investigation. the additional material posted is purely feeding into the defamation as no charges were held. This is pretty serious and has nothing to do with Mr Bouchamaoui Bio. Stating teh number of accounts or holding is not part of a bio. There is nothing to be put under the rug and your comment is already biased if you assume so Drmies
• We are trying to come to a resolution here but you are editing and adding material to the contested version of the bio which is not very constructive attitude TMHO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:100E:214:A4A6:9A6E:599B:D7FF (talk) 03:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• I read the added material and the is no mention or account of any charges against Mr. Bouchamaoui. Additionally there is evidence in "le Monde" article that Mr. Bouchamaoui is accounted and considered as not being part of the Ban Ali Clan. Quoting in french "Les membres du clan Trabelsi-Ben Ali ne sont pas les seuls présents dans la liste des comptes de la HSBC Private Bank. L’homme d’affaires Tarek Bouchamaoui, ancien président de la commission d’arbitrage de la Confédération africaine de football (CAF) arrive en tête de liste." which means in english "The members of the Ben Al-Trabelsi clan are NOT THE ONLY ones that couldbe found in teh list of HSBC.....". This confirms my first point that Mr. Bouchamaoui has never been in any sort of alliance with the Ben Ali family or clan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:100E:214:A4A6:9A6E:599B:D7FF (talk) 04:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Cameron Merchant[edit]

Cameron Merchant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The subject is a minor cricket player who now has a degree of fame in Australia due to his appearance front-and-centre in a recent popular 'reality' TV series. I looked at his article on the weekend and there was some inexpertly-added and unreferenced information about a relationship that Merchant allegedly ended a week before the show began; I removed said unreferenced info. Since then a series of IPs (which I am willing to bet is the jilted ex or someone closely associated to her) and one account with no other edits have re-added the information back to the article a total of seven times (another good-faith edit was made, undoing an IP's removal of the information). It may well be the case that the information is true, but as there are no references presented to that effect, I believe the article should not include this information. I believe the article warrants semi-protection at the least. YSSYguy (talk) 06:28, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

There was an eighth re-addition of the information while I was typing the post above. YSSYguy (talk) 06:30, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I've protected the article for a week, and I'll keep an eye on it as well. - Bilby (talk) 10:45, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Ben Swann[edit]

Ben Swann (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

At Talk:Ben Swann#Synthesis, I've broken down several instances of WP:SYNTH which have been constructed on this article. Ben Swann was a reporter who did a series of news segments for his station. Some of these covered controversial subjects. Most instances of SYNTH here involve use of a single source which might say something like "Ben Swann hosted a segment about X" followed by extra sources about "X", but that do not mention Swann or his station. This seems to be done as a way for Wikipedia editors to construct a refutation of or vilify the news segment. I've created 8 sub-sections, each of which describes a particular topic and the SYNTH problems within. It seems obvious to me that adding additional sources which are irrelevant to the main article subject (Swann) in this way is "synthesis of sources" which must be removed per WP:BLPREMOVE - at least, out of caution, until the handling of them can be discussed and assessed. -- Netoholic @ 09:47, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Thomas Massie[edit]

Can someone keep an eye on this page? The subject made bizarre fringe comments about climate change, and the page is now experiencing lots of changes, including vandalism. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:23, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Sami Yusuf[edit]

Dear team,

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Yusuf

It is patently false to call Sami Yusuf "British-Iranian" as he does not hold Iranian citizenship/dual nationality and, for the purpose of clarification he is ethnically Azeri (not Iranian). He only holds British Citizenship. Here is the link confirming this in a 2018 Q&A session with Mr Yusuf: https://twitter.com/samiyusuf/status/960207745126453248 Also in all following important references: ^{[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]}

I would like to make it absolutely clear that Sami Yusuf only has one name, that is ’Sami Yusuf’. I am astonished that Wikipedia would take a very dubious source so seriously. We can send you Mr Yusuf’s passport copy in case the following link is not sufficient: https://twitter.com/samiyusuf/status/960210578043293696

I hope this precedes some random rumors - it would be quite tragic for Wikipedia’s credibility if it was otherwise. Logically, one would assume such claims would need to be backed with hard evidence (such as actual credible documents) and not just a tabloid-style article?

Best regards,

Mjahangir 16:02, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Breda Dennehy-Willis[edit]

Breda Dennehy-Willis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Her name is spelled "Breeda". See (among other sources): https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/ireland/breeda-dennehy-willis-70755

The misspelling seems to have been inherited from the primary (i.e., only) source for the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4C1:4180:10A0:643B:8405:C98F:4DBF (talk) 16:39, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

MC Pitman[edit]

Completely uncited biography, in contravention to BLP policy. As far as I can tell from a quick search on google the subject doesn't meet notability guidelines either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poetnerd (talk • contribs) 21:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

@Poetnerd: Not meeting notability guidelines is more of an issue for WP:AFD than here and is not really a BLP violation per se. I too was unable to come up with any reliable sources which provide him with the significant coverage needed for a stand-alone article; so, I've asked at some relevant WikiProjects just to see what others think per WP:BEFORE before taking it to AfD. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Update: Another editor has nominated the file for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MC Pitman. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Guy Verhofstadt[edit]

Page has been edited on his most recent birthday (11 April 2019) with potentially libellous content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chickpea57 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Chickpea57: Thank you for bring this to someone's attention. I've reverted the edit since it certainly doesn't comply with not only WP:BLP, but also with WP:NOTFORUM. For future reference, you can revert any similar edits yourself by being WP:BOLD per WP:BLPREMOVE. Just make sure you leave a clearly worded edit summary explaining why. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:26, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Ben Lee (Violinist)[edit]

Ben Lee (violinist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Would you be able to help with reverting an edit on the above page that has been poorly sourced, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oleanda20 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 12 April 2019 (UTC)