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Talk:2012–13 UEFA Champions League group stage
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview On the Champions League page some user think that the "on the next matchday" scenario is basic math, some one think it is a OR and is go against also other NOT such as CRYSTAL. Sometimes there is a edit war if this it have to stay or not in the article. Have you tried to resolve this previously? We are try to talk, but I think it is useless. How do you think we can help? Try to understand if it is a OR o not, and explain better what it is a basic math. Opening comments by Dr. VicodineI said that this is ORIGINAL RESEARCH and I said it on numerous occasions why it is so. But all I see in return is some blabber about this being something "long held practice", "has been present in these articles for as long as I can remember", "routine calculations", "simple math". How long, who started it, when? Routine calculations? Which include boolean algebra and a lot of: if this and that then this OR if this and that or this and not that then this OR if than and this by that and not this then this. For example it's okay to go on Premiere League season page and go on with Arsenal will get: 4th place if they defeat Wigan AND Everton lose to Southampton OR they draw with Wigan AND Chelsea defeat Fulham by 2 or more goals AND Manchester United draw with Norwich, 5th place if this or that and so on for a total of 20 clubs. And Sven can change my name in his paragraph and all he said applies to him. Dr. Vicodine (talk) 16:36, 8 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by MotsjoMy views are that the next match day section has been present in these articles for as long as I can remember, and I really don't see why they have to be removed now. They are all mathematical facts and thus should not count as original research. If this practice is changed then many other would have to be changed as well. Motsjo (talk) 00:57, 8 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by SchnapperMy point of view is also already described in the 2012 CL groupe stag talk article. These scenarios are based on verifiable and official sources (the tie-breaking rules for the competition) and can easily be found out after some time. I consider them as routine calculations and also as useful information. I've always liked Wikipedia's football articles for containing such clear and precise information on what would happen. It has always been used so long I remember and nobody had never complained about it before. I don't see why it has suddenly to be forbidden now. Opening comments by Sven ManguardPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
I became involved in this a few weeks ago when I noticed that a user Dr. Vicodine had removed large chunks of text from an article in my watchlist. I reverted him, and then went to his talk page where I realized that he had a long track record of not only making this change, but getting himself blocked for 3RR violations... for continuously making this change. I ended up reverting him again, and wasn't alone, and eventually he got blocked, again, for 3RR violations. Today, I saw that the section was missing again, however this time it was because he stuck eight different OR tags in the sections, which were then removed by someone else. While it's nice to see that the user is no longer edit warring, he's still engaging in battleground behavior to make the change. I would, ideally, like to see him topic banned from all pages related to the UEFA Champions and UEFA Europa leagues. As for whether the sections qualify as OR or not, I don't think that they do, and I think that even if they do, they can probably be sourced, since Wikipedia isn't the only website to do this, and I've heard the on air commentators say things like this too. That is to me, however, a secondary concern to Dr. Vicodine's conduct. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:26, 8 November 2012 (UTC) Talk:2012–13 UEFA Champions League group stage discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. I'd like to note that there was an extended discussion of this issue back in June at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 69#Next match day scenarios, involving Dr. Vicodine and a number of other editors, pro and con, who are not involved in this dispute. I'm not suggesting that anything was (or was not) resolved in that discussion or, indeed, that even if consensus had been reached that it would have meant anything. (Consensus decisions made at WikiProjects do not have the ability to set enforceable standards for articles, even in the subject area of that project, unless proper steps are taken to elevate the decision to policy or guideline status. See WP:CONLIMITED.) Consideration of that discussion may, at least to some extent, avoid the need for reinventing the wheel here, however. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
My opinion - I"ve given this a lot of thought, and I've come to the conclusion that the material should not go in the article(s). The data is just too transitory: it only is useful for about two weeks. The calculations are not a simple addition or subtraction: but involve some pretty fancy logic sometimes. A great compromise is to insert an external link to a quasi-official website that has the data: but there appear to be no such sites. The fact that the UEFA web site, or major UK newspaper websites don't contain this data is very telling. As much as I love the champions league (that victory of Chelsea at Barcelona last year!) I just don't see this material conforming to WP policies. --Noleander (talk) 18:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
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The Poison
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview I have seen that the title of the first song off the album The Poison is wrong. Apparently, the song had been called "Intro... My lifestyle" since 2010. But the real name is "Intro". I have added some references to prove it. But there are two users who insist on removing my edits and changing the title of the song. They say the name is "Intro ... My Lifestyle", but the reference that they added is not a reliable source (Last.fm). While the sources that I have added are from the official website of Bullet For My Valentine, iTunes, professional reviews of the album (from the BBC and AllMusic) and even a picture of the album where you can clearly read that the title is "Intro". As I said, we did not reach an agreement and this ended in an edit war. Therefore, the administrators Elen Of The Roads and Nobody Ent recommended me go to WP:DRN to get some of the dispute resolution people to help me work it out. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have added many references and I have tried to discuss on the talk page of The Poison, but I have not received any reply. They just deleted over and over again my edits. How do you think we can help? I think the solution is that you check my references and theirs. Then you should give your opinion and say who is right. I don't want you to force anyone to do something, I just want your suggestion to end this discussion. Opening comments by AmongTheliving66Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by 71.95.82.119Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
The Poison discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Aruna Roy
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As RobertRosen's main concern in the edit summaries of his section blankings were the sources used, a WP:RSN discussion was started to receive expert guidance and with an intention to move the same to the article's talk page. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Reckless blanking of sourced sections. This user was largely focussing on articles related to India against corruption movement before getting featured on WP:ANI, committing immediate removal of sourced content in case of BLP articles without discussion making use of WP:BLP for the removal of content that an editor personally finds controversial. Have you tried to resolve this previously? To check the authenticity of the sources, a discussion was started on WP:RSN and later, another discussion ensued on WP:ANI. How do you think we can help? Restoration of blanked content, as the current WP:BLP is ambiguous and is bound to lead to edit warring. Opening comments by MorelMWilliamRobertRosen regards the personal details of Aruna Roy supported by multiple reliable sources (such as regarding her marriage to Bunker Roy, her birth, schooling and education) to be controversial and removes(1, 2, 3 & 4) these well cited info without having his concerns heard on the article's talk page citing the provisions of WP:BLP. When I confronted him at WP:RSN asking for reliable sources that prove their controversial nature, he provided a blog link and summed with a comment on Aruna's parents' 'controversial' 'inter class' marriage, after which his responses were mostly centered on my past edits history. morelMWilliam 06:24, 13 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by RobertRosenMonelMWiliiams is a former sock puppeteer who was blocked and given a second chance and new name because of some past good edits. (I am aware of WP quidelines called "Reformed"). Even after being unblocked he has engaged in disruptive and abusive behaviour with several other editors besides me. He has already opened 3 other discussions on WP:DR notice boards for the same incident Aruna Roy. He has tagged his dispute onto the preceding one to further confuse the matter. It would be pertinent to study the WP:ANI [4] notice/proceedings brought by him against me. He first asked for a CheckUser against me on false statements. Which admin GiantSnowman granted in my absence. I gave my reply, MMWilliams then admitted he couldn't think of any socking done by me and made more allegations. Snowman withdrew the WP:SPI. User:No_Ent opined that MMWiliiams was edit-warring and has breach WP:DR norms. MMwilliams made more allegations. User:Collect told him the Aruna Roy material was clearly unusable advising him to drop it. MMWilliams made more allegations and conspiracy theory rants. Admin: Elen_of_the_Roads chastised him and threatened to block him under NPA. MMwilliams made more allegations aganst me and argued with the Admin. At this point I gave a detailed reply to him. He made more allegations. I then started investigating his edits and learnt he was a sock-puppeteer. I was quite "pissed off" when I learnt this, but I (unwisely) offered him a truce. Admin:BWilkins even gave me some advice which I did not understand at the time. MMWilliams rejected my truce by repeating all his old allegations. This time User:The Hand_That_Feeds_You strongly admonished MMwilliams and said he should be blocked under NPA. MMwilliams continued with his allegations. Enough is enough. MMWilliams should be thrown off Wikipedia for NPA, sexually inappropriate and abusive/uncivil behavior and multiple abuse of WP:DR procedures. Finally this page is the gateway to other WP:DR's. When 3 higher DR's are ongoing why put the cart before the horse if not to harass me ? RobertRosen (talk) 07:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC) Aruna Roy discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Boris Malagurski, Talk:The Weight of Chains
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview The two articles in question have been the source of a dispute for the past few months, as there are a few Wikipedia editors who seem to have personal or ideological issues with Boris Malagurski and his film The Weight of Chains, and are trying to add sources that are either blogs banned from Wikipedia, other self-published blogs and unreliable websites that use slander and lies, or unchecked facts at best, in violation of WP:SOURCE even YouTube videos in violation of WP:COPYEDIT. Whenever I called for respect of Wikipedia guidelines, many of them attacked me personally and even claimed that I'm Boris Malagurski or paid by him. This is starting to get very frustrating, because they keep repeating the same points over and over again, completely ignoring my arguments that their sources are not reliable enough for Wikipedia. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I've tried to explain that self-published blogs are not accepted here, that YouTube videos of news broadcasts posted on YouTube by a user other than the official broadcaster is in violation on WP:YOUTUBE, that a film is produced by a production company and not every individual or organization that donates money towards the production of the film, that E-novine is a self-published online blog site presenting itself as a news source, that copy/pastes blog posts from the web. How do you think we can help? I have no interest in there not being any criticism of the topics that are dealt with in the articles, but I only support criticism that is available via reliable sources. I'm curious if you think srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com, bosniangenocide.wordpress.com, zijadburgic.com, e-novine.com (which copy/pasted a blog post about this topic from zijadburgic.com), politicsrespun.org, are verifiable enough to be the core critique of these topics, and what you'd suggest to end this dispute. Opening comments by PRODUCERPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
![]() UrbanVillager's "concern" for copyrighted material is really just an illusion. While criticizing others for copyright infringing material for one Youtube link he deemed it appropriate to personally and hypocritically place copyright violating nine links himself. [5] At the Boris Malagurski talkpage, red herrings were abundant. Whether it's the article of the founder of E-novine not being up to par for UrbanVillager or a youtube video of Burgic irking him there are no limits to the nonsense. When a consensus was formed at the Weight of Chains article to include information regarding financial backing and done in compliance with film MOS, UrbanVillager continued to act as a gatekeeper whose sole approval is what's important and has now found it necessary to file the dispute resolution. UrbanVillager's sudden stringent concern for the reliability of sources is exclusive to sources that he personally dislikes and to which his opinion does not form to. Numerous tabloids, web portals, and blogs are cited at the Boris Malagurski article and were included at the initiative of UrbanVillager. The double standard applied by him and promotional tone set in the article is very clear. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 15:01, 8 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by OpbeithPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
(Text is disjointed as remarks alleged to be defamatory about Boris Malagurski, including reference to Wikipedia history, have been deleted without indication.)Opbeith (talk) 20:37, 7 November 2012 (UTC) The subject Boris Malagurski, producer of The Weight of Chains film, before these were released and even at the "development" and pre-production stages, they were being promoted on Wikipedia by various editors, notably Cinema C and UrbanVillager. Without robust evidence of his and his work's merit/notability, references to Malagurski's work have been inserted into and in some cases more forcefully promoted across a wide range of articles. The editors concerned resisted efforts to moderate this. A group of Wikipedia editors have been able to draw on favourable publicity in notionally reliable sources while rejecting criticism that his work does not seem to have been notable enough to attract objective reviews that could be cited in a balanced article. I have found it a very frustrating experience watching the inflation of the Malagurski family of articles and dealing with the resolute opposition of the editors led by UrbanVillager. I have also found the apparent blind eye that these efforts to promote someone have enjoyed surprising. I'm not patient with manipulation and has certainly led me to be less than courteous than I would have been in more genuine circumstances, I do acknowledge that. I have had an uncongenial relationship for a long time with User:Psychonaut. While I understand that he would not feel disposed to enter into discussion with me, he has not been directly involved in this issue and I was surprised that he stepped into the dispute to offer such forceful advice to UrbanVillager apparently unsolicited. Opbeith (talk) 21:44, 6 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by BobraynerThere has long been a problem with promotional editing, and highly selective application of wikipedia rules, on articles about Boris Malagurski and his films. "Boris Malagurski" has a talent for self-promotion, and his articles have been dominated by socks of Bormalagurski (talk · contribs). UrbanVillager indulges in the same promotional editing, and the same highly selective application of wikipedia rules. For instance, the flakiest of sources are used if they look good for Malagurski; but if they say something bad about Malagurski, UrbanVillager is swift to remove them. UrbanVillager removes copyvio if it's criticism of Malagurski, keeps it if it's praise. And so on. The promotional editing has happened over and over again. It's difficult to see how we could have neutral content on the Malagurskiverse, as long as UrbanVillager and other Malagurski sockpuppets/meatpuppets continue editing these articles. Meanwhile, UrbanVillager suggests that a "prominent filmmaker" would be too busy to edit wikipedia so Bormalagurski is a completely unconnected person who just likes editing an article about their namesake - no COI there! This is just one of many examples of tendentious editing. I am wary of investing lots of time digging up diffs again, but would be happy to provide a lot more detail if there is a chance that this discussion could lead to a solution to the problem that I have described above. bobrayner (talk) 21:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Opening comments by WhiteWriterPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by PsychonautI'm not directly involved in this dispute as I've edited neither article nor their respective talk pages. My participation has been limited to advising User:UrbanVillager on his talk page to disengage from another editor whose objections I believed to be disingenuous and unsupported by policy, and to investigating some COI and copyright issues at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Boris Malagurski. I have never stated my opinions on the text of the articles in dispute, nor has anyone even asked me what those may be. Regarding the sourcing issues, I can only repeat what I posted at WP:COIN: It's a settled matter on English Wikipedia that User:Bosniak's Srebrenica Genocide Blog is not a reliable source. Bosniak was banned in part for spamming links to it in Wikipedia articles, and it's been on the spam blacklist for some time now. Other blogs aren't usually considered reliable sources according to our policies. Whether or not the E-novine article can be used as a source is not at all clear-cut; in general it seems that the site may be a reliable source, but in this particular case it simply reproduced a blog post, so there are arguments both for and against its inclusion here. Indeed, UrbanVillager and User:Joy both advanced such arguments on the article talk pages. As this is a general issue it would be helpful if the discussion could be continued with participation of disinterested parties at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. —Psychonaut (talk) 19:40, 6 November 2012 (UTC) Talk:Boris Malagurski, Talk:The Weight of Chains discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Though I'm a regular volunteer here at DRN, I'm not "taking" this listing, but am only dropping in to note that the E-novine source mentioned above is now the subject of an inquiry at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and that aspect of this request ought to probably be on hold until that discussion is resolved. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
As this dispute is no where near finished and no one seems to be giving it any attention, I'd like to share some things that I already wrote to User:Psychonaut: I believe that User:Opbeith, User:PRODUCER, User:Pincrete and User:Bobrayner, have as their only purpose, regarding the Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and Kosovo: Can You Imagine? articles, to do any or all of the following:
This looks like a very well-coordinated attack mechanism aimed at slowly destroying the Malagurski article and all articles related to it. I could provide more references to back up these claims, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'd just add that I checked with the sources noticeboard, one editor commented agreeing with me that the absurd E-novine was not the kind of source we should use on Wikipedia [15]. Naturally, Producer jumped to defend the source, even calling User:Joy to lend his support. All these editors seem to not have any good faith when it comes to the articles in question - almost every single edit they made was motivated by any one of the points that I listed. --UrbanVillager (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Talk:The Weight of Chains discussion user PincreteI have been involved in the talk/editing process at W. of C. for the last month and was drawn into being an editor precisely because I felt this Wikipedia article was woefully inadequate and amounted to a 'press-release' for the film. UrbanVillager is being wholly disingenuous in his account above, neither Opbeith nor Bob Rayner have attempted to insert any material from blogs. What Opbeith did, (which I supported on the talk page) was to use the 'summary' elements from 3 reviews as a basis for discussion on the talk page. Since this is a long film with many contentious arguments and claims, I personally welcomed these summaries and found them a useful 'starting line' from which to assess what the important arguments in the film were and how those arguments should be expressed in the article (where appropriate linking to Wikipedia pages which cover the 'mainstream' accounts of the events). UrbanVillager attempted to stifle all such discussion on the talk page, and now that has failed, he has taken the matter to DRN. In fact I have just checked the edit history for the W.o.C. page, the last edit that Opbeith made there was on May 22nd last year, in which he questioned the 'official selection' status of this film at a festival. He was proved to be wholly correct. Opbeith HAS been active on the talk page, which I understand is the proper procedure for seeking to make major alterations to the main page. BobRayner's recent edits have all been minor and constructive and have largely been accepted.
I acknowledge what Bob Rayner says above about my comments. Perhaps how I should have left it is: his edits have all been 'constructive', by which I mean that they have all been both 'within guidelines' and also intended to restore balance and realism to the page.Pincrete (talk) 08:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC) Talk:The Weight of Chains discussion user Uzma GamalI closed the COIN1 case and posted a comment in COIN2. The following is the status (as of this post) of noticeboard requests concerning UrbanVillager:
-- Uzma Gamal (talk) 15:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
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UVB-76
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Lately a lot of content that is unsourced, of dubious relevance and badly formatted has been added to the article. It made the article read more like a logbook full of trivia information where anyone could add whatever they felt like. The importance and accuracy of the information was never established with reliable and independent sources. I do not think this information belongs on Wikipedia, at least not in the current form. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried to revert the bad content, but my reversions were reverted themselves by the anonymous users who had added the content. I attempted to discuss the issue on the talk page, but the discussion was largely ignored and those users continued to insert more bad content into the page. I therefore requested protection on the article in an attempt to force a discussion, which was granted for a week. No further discussion took place during that time, however. The protection has now ended, and once again someone has reverted me and re-inserted the content verbatim. How do you think we can help? The article's subject is rather 'out on the fringes' so to say, so I believe it has a tendency to attract editors who are committed to inserting information about their favourite subject, without much regard for Wikipedia standards of quality. It would be good if editors who are more experienced with Wikipedia could have a look at the issue and give comments, maybe help improve the article as well. Opening comments by InVultusSolisPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by SecretlondonPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
I think we are being hoaxed actually. None of the usual UVB-76 fan sites are covering these new additions - I can't find anything to corroborate them. One of the claimed broadcast code words was FARK, which may indicate a fark connection. Wikipedia is never a primary source. I've tried to remove it when it appears but there's just more and more of it. The article was semi protected for a while which stopped it, but it's since come back. I don't know if this noticeboard entry is needed as all this stuff is unreferenced. More semi protection? Secretlondon (talk) 22:29, 11 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by BduxburyI believe we are speaking about the section, "2012" that has been deleted and added multiple times. This section has become a "log book" of sorts, and has not been covered by sites covering the activities of UVB-76. Although, I have listened to strange anomalies on this channel that is noteworthy and similar to previous activity reported in 2010, Wikipedia cannot be a primary source and should be taken down until it can be sourced properly.Bduxbury (talk) 04:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC) UVB-76 discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Hi. I'm a volunteer and I'd like to help the parties come to consensus. I see that we are waiting for one more party (InVultusSolis) to submit an opening statement. We can start a discussion after they do so. --Noleander (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi guys. Total error of judgement on my behalf in reviving that information.Stesfs (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
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Windows Server 2012 editions table
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview The dispute started almost a month ago, when I contested the use of colors in Windows Server 2012 editions table. The table lists the differences between different editions of Windows Server 2012 and uses color key; but I am concerned about the meaning of the colors. At the lower half of the table, green is used for "Yes" (meaning that the feature is present), red is used for "No" (meaning that the feature is absent) and yellow is used for "Partial" (meaning that the feature is present only to some extents). But at the upper section, where silvery gray, light red, green, cyan and yellow are used, I cannot logically associate a clear-cut meaning with light red and cyan.
Have you tried to resolve this previously? See this permanent link: Talk:Windows Server 2012 § Color guide in editions table We have been discussing this issue for 15 days now. All three of us agree that consensus is weak but there has been no response to our RfC or other notices. How do you think we can help? This part of DRN request is the most difficult part; especially, because if I knew the answer to this question, I wouldn't have been here. Opening comments by Jasper DengPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by JetBlastI am not getting involved really. It isnt a "Dispute" I just happened to make comment on the original discussion. --JetBlast (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC) Windows Server 2012 editions table discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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2010 Thai political protests
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview
In deleting my edits, "takeaway" has indicated that they are non-neutral.Instead of deleting my edits wholesale, I have requested him to highlight what he considers non-nuetrality, and discuss them. He has refused this and continues to delete my entries wholesale. One can read our discussion on our respective "Talk" pages for both "Takeaway" and "Ferwert". Instead of addressing specific areas he considers non-nuetral, he has tried to bury my in Wikipedia process as a away of discouraging progress. I also inquired of him if he was associated with one of the most propagandistic and 'opinion management' discussion forums many English language speakers participate in. He refused to answer that query, leading me to conclude that he is an operative from that discussion Board, or at the very least a participant, which is the same. People such as me, with our dual perspective, and able to communicate eloquently, in a reasoned, non-combative way, are regularly banned from that site, is we threaten their 'opinion management' objectives. How do you think we can help?
Opening comments by TakeawayI reverted this edit and this edit by user Ferwert as not adhering to WP:NPOV where they use words such as "coupist Government", "coup-rooted Government", and "Government based on coercive Parliamentary procedures enabled via Oligarchic and military interventions" without backing these very strong assertions with sources as is required by Wikipedia. User Ferwert continued editing the article, this time without using these particular phrases. User Ferwert was told at the Wikipedia helpdesk when they posted a question there on how to contact me, that Wikipedia content should be based on verifiability. I didn't know that this had happened at the time but I too pointed out in the article talk page that edits should be verifiable. User Ferwert then replied that they have personal "in-depth knowledge" of the whole issue and that therefore "all quotes and verification based on the BKK. Post, Nation, ASTV should be eliminated". Apparently, only User Ferwert's own knowledge could be counted on to represent the "correct" viewpoint. I also refused to discuss content changes on Wikipedia in private via email, as User Ferwert asked for, because it is my believe that all discussions on content changes should be done in public on the talkpage of the article. Seeing that all subsequent edits of User Ferwert were done without any references to reliable sources and based only upon his word as a self-proclaimed expert, I reverted them with the following edit summary: "reverted to last revision by Takeaway: removed personal analysis, original research, unsourced content. See talk page per user Ferwert's own admission". I then placed the template for "Addition of unsourced or improperly cited material" on to User Ferwert's talkpage. I personally think that User Ferwert is out to represent the UDD as a legitimate uprising against an illegitimate government. What I know of the Abhisit government is that it was not illegitimate, but came into being in a somewhat irregular way (see: Democrat_Party_(Thailand)#2008-2011_coalition_government). The present article is, again in my personal view, quite neutral in representing both sides without taking a side. It is my personal view that User Ferwert's edits were detrimental to WP:NPOV. If User Ferwert had come with reliable sources to back up their assertions instead of stating "Let me emphasize - I have my feet firmly rooted in both camps experientially, and accordingly can confidently assert that I represent both sides, as I have in-depth knowledge", then this whole issue would have been a true content dispute. As it stands now, it is merely a dispute about unsourced statements and personal analysis by User Ferwert based on original research. - Takeaway (talk) 11:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC) 2010 Thai political protests discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Closing note: I am a regular volunteer here at Wikipedia. I'm afraid that this noticeboard cannot provide, indeed Wikipedia cannot provide, the relief that you're seeking.
Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:50, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
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the page for United Technologies Corporation
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview I added the factual information on UTC's page that "Selling secret military technology to the Chinese is in fact an act of treason" with a reference to your wikipedia page defining treason. An editor, one "BilCat" reverted it. I am not sure how he did that since first of all he is "semiretired" and supposedly has not been active since 12/1/2011. I feel it is important to have it defined that this is in fact an act of treason (in case any reader is not sure) committed by this huge federally subsidized defense contractor no less that received in effect a slap on the wrist from the government. Whoever "BilCat" was, he obviously was a puppet of UTC. I would like to have my factual edit permently added so noone can remove it. Beause I am sure that UTC will simply have another editor remove it if I repost it. This is not vandalism. It is the truth. Please reply and add my edit back to the UTC page. Thank you. I will be making a donation to wikipedia. Have you tried to resolve this previously? none How do you think we can help? have my factual edit added back to UTC's page so the public is sure that this was an act of treason committed by UTC. Opening comments by BilCatPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
the page for United Technologies Corporation discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Green Mountain College
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview After much debate, the editors came up with a mostly satisfactory compromise on an entry about its two oxen that were scheduled to be processed for meat, due to the college's ideals of sustainability, and the ire that arose from it. One user, PE2011, insists on including the opinions of certain groups (mostly VINE) that were involved. Many editors have argued that while they did share a general communal opinion, individual reasoning was not worthy of including in such a short and to-the-point article about what happened, especially since the media has given little coverage of their opinions. An admin has repeatedly weighed in in support of our position of exclusion, yet the user PE2011 has continued to argue ad nauseum about including the reasoning, mostly from one organization that was pretty much unknown before the controversy. Other editors have stated that there is no reason to include a specific group's opinion. Allow me to quote part on admin Qwyrxian's opinion on the subject: "VINE's viewpoint is not significant. They're a group that tried to use this "controversy" to gain attention. They succeeded, and were oovered in some stories. We've represented their relevance to the story. Their viewpoint is not relevant. And no, we should not include all of those other viewpoints. There is no reason to include the viewpoints of any individual groups or people. Don't worry, a lot of people make this same mistake about NPOV. But if you read the whole thing, the goal of WP articles is not to include a long list of "he said, they said, she said", but, instead, to represent factually what happened. In cases where interpretation of events is relevant, we have to include various people's interpretations, taking into account WP:DUE. To be honest, PE2011, you're getting near to WP:DEADHORSE territory. And since there is a clear consensus not to include the information, it should stay out..." Please help us end this circular, repetitive and LONG discussion that is going nowhere. Thank you. Have you tried to resolve this previously? We have repeatedly tried to compromise, but the only compromise from PE2011 has been write ups that favored his opinion. How do you think we can help? Please help to find a common ground or end the discussion altogether. PE2011 has been engaging in an edit war simply because other editors disagree with him. The page has been temporarily locked due to this. Frankly, many of us are tired (figuratively and literally) of his almost bullying tactics to get his way and we just want to move on from the issue without living in the fear that PE2011 will continue to edit the entry to suit his whims. Please help! Opening comments by Vt catamountPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Editor PE2011 has proposed an expansion of VINE's "rationale for slaughter" within the Green Mountain College entry subsection "Oxen Slaughtering Controversy." His or her reasoning is two-fold, first that no rationale is given, and second that the VINE opposition is the "majority viewpoint." I contest both of these assumptions as follows: From WP:NPOV - “Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.” (emphasis added). After reviewing several of the published, reliable sources already referenced in the text, it appears that VINE's rationale for non-slaughter is in fact the option for retirement - the only sentiment I see recycled (in reliable sources) is their general "shock" at the refusal of said offer. It was the refusal of said offer that prompted what followed. The current proposal by PE2011 goes above and beyond what is required by principle, and although the language is sourced by one article (though not nationwide, as preferred), it appears that it is simply not important enough to report here. WP:SPS "if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so." I think our biggest issue going forward is "what defines a majority" re:NPOV and UNDUE. I do not think that the opinions of VINE/petitioners are in the majority - the case is still unfolding, and the focus in reliable sources has shifted away from the complaints of the protestors (minority) and onto the absurdity of the protests (majority). This is why the existence of "threats" is so important (a previous discussion), and this is why any further rationale VINE may have for making the initial offer (beyond "retirement") is unimportant. Finally, the rationale given for the protests in all reliable sources is the fact that 11 year old working oxen are slated to be slaughtered for dinner, which is already stated within the first line(s) of the subsection. Thank you for your help moving forward.Vt catamount (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by CrazytomeAs far as I understand, the timeline of this event is: 1) GMC planned slaughter, 2) protest, 3) threats, 4) slaughter cancelled, 5) Lou was euthanized. The portion covering the second part, the protest, is succinctly covered by a properly-sourced reference with a sentence such as "The college's decision prompted opposition from animal rights supporters from around the world, including some townspeople and thousands of online petitioners worldwide." VINE, an animal sanctuary, is included under the umbrella of "protesters," as its offer to provide a retirement home for the oxen is a form of protest to the slaughter. Other sanctuaries and individual farms offered similar accommodations but are not mentioned by name. Furthermore, as this is the Wikipedia entry for Green Mountain College, it is extraneous to include VINE's perspective on the issue. It adds no substance or important information to the article and adds weight to, in this case, an unimportant party. I suggested that if this is important to VINE, they can add it to their own Wikipedia entry. If the mediator determines that VINE's rationale could reasonably be included, I hold that the sentence following suggestion is sufficient: "GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school as a humane alternative, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." Retirement holds value and the phrase "humane alternative" is an effective summation. The phrase PE2011 insists on, "is not a worthy trade-off" is not a well-supported statement in and of itself. "Humane alternative" is much more effective to the common reader. My objection to it is that it is heavily-valued while holding little substance (which is not how an encyclopedia entry should be). Crazytome (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by PE2011Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Some context: GMC made the decision—not yet carried out—to slaughter two of their oxen, Bill and Lou, which prompted strong opposition from the public (townspeople, animal rights supporters, and “tens of thousands” of online petitioners worldwide), thereby making this story a “controversy” between two general viewpoints: GMC’s viewpoint that B&L should be slaughtered v. the opposition viewpoint that they should not be slaughtered. WP:UNDUE “requires” “all significant viewpoints” to be fairly represented, but since that isn’t being done, I must object to the current graf. The current graf contains an articulated rationale for slaughter (because it “align[s] with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm”), but it does not contain any articulated rationale against it—despite the opposition viewpoint numbering in the “tens of thousands” (actual phrase in graf). So my proposal was to work in a short rationale by VINE, the animal rights organization already mentioned in the graf and covered in several pieces on this controversy (e.g., in the Huffington post, NYT, Chronicle of Higher Education, NPR, and VTDigger). That articulated rationale was cited in VTDigger, the core part being (my condensation): “meat from Bill and Lou is not a worthy trade-off for their lives.” I still don’t understand why it’s so unreasonable to include this rationale into the graf; Kingsrow1975 will not explain, no matter how many times I asked him. Furthermore, I am not necessarily wedded to the rationale specifically articulated by VINE. Another acceptable alternative (already proposed but rejected) is the rationale articulated in the care2 petition letter, the very one referenced above, which received “tens of thousands” of online signatures. For me, the overriding issue is to have some articulated rationale against slaughter--at least comparable to the articulated rationale for it--so that the opposition to slaughter viewpoint can be fairly represented, as required by WP:UNDUE. This dispute has progressed here because the so-called "majority" prefers to exclude any articulated rationale against slaughter which would balance out the articulated rationale for it. Compromise on this point is wholly unreasonable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PE2011 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC) Talk:Green Mountain College discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Gwickwire, your guidance is greatly appreciated, and thank you for volunteering your time in what may be a long, drawn-out process, if history is any guide. :) 1. A highly moderated discussion would be perfect, though it would also help to have substantive input from other volunteers. 2. Agreed. 3. Before posting my sources below, I want to clarify my contention: it is not that VINE is the majority organization spearheading the campaign to save Bill and Lou (although true), but that VINE’s viewpoint—the view that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority on this issue. And even if it wasn’t true (an absurd claim which I can easily refute), it is nevertheless a significant viewpoint, so some rationale against slaughter warrants inclusion. Moreover, as indicated above, I am perfectly open to accepting a rationale articulated from a source other than VINE, such as the care2 petition letter. Now for sources that mention VINE:
Before I reply to PE2011's list of sources, another editor, George McD, asked that I post this statement from him in regards to this issue. "I want to go on record for the conflict resolution, etc., that I am ok with any of the following edits that have been suggested by other editors (below). I feel that it is important to include one of them. 1) "VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, as a humane alternative. GMC refused the offer, stating that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." 2)"VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, stating that meat from Bill and Lou is not a worthy trade-off for their lives. GMC refused the offer, stating that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." 3)"VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, as a humane alternative. GMC refused the offer, stating that it did not align with their values of sustainability." Thank you. George McD (talk) 22:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)"Kingsrow1975 (talk) 02:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC) I have looked over all these sources and noted the mentions of VINE in them. As you can see, the vast majority of the articles simply mention the offer VINE made to GMC. Only one, maybe two, articles give any form of reasoning whatsoever. From a journalistic standpoint, the mere mention of VINE in these articles in no way implies or proves that they were in any way a major player in the issue. So, based on the evidence below, I submit that the inclusion of VINE's opinion is giving undue weight to their opinion and as such is unnecessary. Thank you.
I will refrain from commenting further until we hear from gwickwire about moderating our discussion (something that I now highly favor), but will just note briefly two things: (1) Again, my contention is merely that VINE’s viewpoint—that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority here (“tens of thousands” agree with it), and (2) the fact that VINE is the main AR group repeatedly mentioned in these stories about the controversy--and not in passing--belies any claim that they aren’t a “major player in the issue.” PE2011 (talk) 03:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
PE2011, for formatting reasons I am putting this down here rather than figure out how to include it above. You stated earlier that "I want to clarify my contention: it is not that VINE is the majority organization spearheading the campaign to save Bill and Lou (although true), but that VINE’s viewpoint—the view that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority on this issue. ... it is ... a significant viewpoint, so some rationale against slaughter warrants inclusion." If all you require is "some" rationale, than what is wrong with the summation description of "humane alternative"? It is succinct, effective, and makes sense to the common reader. In this light, I propose the following statement: ""The college's decision prompted opposition from animal rights supporters from around the world, including some townspeople and thousands of online petitioners worldwide, who wanted [sanctuary as] a humane alternative."Crazytome (talk) 05:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
A brief note (to help guide volunteers): I want to emphasize that a highly moderated discussion would be preferable, and it should focus on resolving two distinct issues. (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? (2) If so, what articulated rationale should be included? We should first focus on achieving consensus on (1) before moving onto (2) – that is, discussing specific proposals. Thank you.PE2011 (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Another brief note to volunteers: the focus of the current dispute is merely about including or excluding some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter—it should NOT be about sneaking in, as Crazytome appears to be doing, prior graf language that has already been rejected. Crazytome’s above proposal significantly changes the third sentence of the current graf to his preferred (and rejected) version. To keep the moderated discussion focused, no proposals of any kind should be considered other than ones relevant to the current dispute. Please watch out for his antics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PE2011 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. By making this comment, I'm not necessarily suggesting that I am going to take on this dispute: I may or may not, in equal portions. But I do want to make a comment about what's being discussed and the basis on which it is being discussed. The only proper reason or motivation for editing Wikipedia is to improve Wikipedia and to do so in accordance with its accepted norms, policies, and procedures. What I'm reading here seems to be a whole lot about whose ox is <ahem> being gored and whose position is being advanced and precious little about what's best for Wikipedia. To the scant extent that Wikipedia policy is being discussed, it's being used more as a bludgeon or totem than it is for the reasons it exists: to define what's best for Wikipedia. In a short article about a relatively minor college, a great deal of coverage about this incident is clearly inappropriate. What is in the article already seems to me to be perfectly adequate to note what happened. I'd like to ask, in that light, for the benefit of whatever volunteer chooses to weigh in on this case: How will Wikipedia be benefited by any of the edits being discussed here? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello again. I do send my sincerest apologies for not replying sooner, I had some other issues to take care of. Basically your discussion seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) to be mainly about the inclusion of the viewpoint, and if it is included, what form the inclusion should take. Is that correct? I'll try to "heavily moderate" but to help me do that I need to ask a favor. Could each person involved please only post once before a reply from me or another volunteer? That way I have time to moderate as requested without it getting out of hand. Lastly, could I get a brief overview of only facts about the events that transpired with this college/animal? I only want facts. No need to source right now, but if someone puts up something that isn't fact, feel free to use your one post at a time to correct them (in a new comment). Thanks, and I do await your replies. gwickwire | Leave a message 22:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, gwickwire! Thanks for attending to this matter. Feel free to indent this comment, it just doesn't seem to follow the route PE is taking so I'm placing it here. To be frank, I believe that PE2011 is insisting on articulating the Animal Rights perspective within this entry, and I firmly believe this goes against the very concept of Wikipedia. The article is fine as it stands, the sources are excellent, and heck, the very nature of the controversy is rapidly changing; it's no longer about slaughter "being bad," it's about the absurdity of the protest and the abuse of a college farm by a vocal, online group of Animal Rights activists. Even so, the facts remain, and the facts have already been stated concisely in the entry. Thank you again.Vt catamount (talk) 03:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Y'all are breaking the rules. Gwickwire, we look forward to your return.Vt catamount (talk) 05:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, gwickwire. I look forward to comments. Again, for purposes of this “dispute resolution,” we should proceed as if there are NO objections to anything else in the graf. Below is the whole graf with my addition in bold:
Rather than VINE, I have chosen to work in the rationale articulated in the care2 petition letter, the very letter referenced in multiple major sources--the one which received “tens of thousands” of signatures worldwide. So there should be no objection as to source.(Btw, the care2 letter explicitly mentions VINE, so VINE isn't just important because of the initial offer). My above condensation is a neutralized nutshell of the following language:
Ok we’re trying to resolve two distinct questions. (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included? (2) If so, what specific articulated rationale should be included? We haven't reached consensus on (1), so I think's it's premature to try and come up with language for articulated rational, since 2 is contingent on a yes decision for 1.Flyte35 (talk) 03:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
gwickwire. I’m not sure “absolute necessity” or "necessity" is the right standard here—rather, it’s “significance.” WP:UNDUE The above rationale, in bold, is a (very) significant viewpoint in this controversy. Shouldn't the issue of inclusion turn on whether this is true? Moreover, my above proposal (i) describes one of the main reasons against slaughter (because B&L deserve to be spared after 10 years of work), and (ii) describes what “tens of thousands” were urging (spare and sent to sanctuary). Both (i) and (ii) adds informative value to the content of the graf.PE2011 (talk) 06:30, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
(←) I should have worded that differently. What I meant was that the text did not need to be in the article persay, but I personally would have strongly considered putting it in. However, that's beside the point. How about this: will all editors agree to work on an article in someone's userspace over this controversy, making sure it meets WP:GNG and is sourced well? That way, all users can include everything in as much expansion as needs to be, and that way all are happy. Does any editor have a problem with this: make a new article solely over the controversy about the slaughter, to be titled something along the lines of "Green Mountain College slaughter controversy", in someone's userspace or at AfC and then have it moved when it is full and ready to be in the articlespace. That's my proposal for you. If someone has a problem then we can try to work something else out. gwickwire | Leave a message 23:30, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Okay, after not seeing any opposition above, I'd like to formally request your input here about my compromise, which is as follows: create a new page about the controversy and link to it in GMC's article, and leave GMC's article otherwise how it is now. If you agree, just say so below here by posting this: ( #Agree ~~~~ ) and once everyone (if everyone) agrees, we can implement this. Thank you all for being patient with each other and me by the way :) gwickwire | Leave a message 01:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I must admit, it's a bit amusing to see how far this discussion has gone since I last checked in, and yet no progress has been made! Unfortunately, I'm here to stick a wrench in the endlessly spinning wheel, if I can. The care2 petition is off-limits as a source. Someone who believes it necessary will need to find an "articulated rationale" elsewhere. This is going to be difficult, I admit, since virtually all of the reliable sources used thus far (to my recollection, at least) seem to share my perspective: such language is superfluous. As for why petitioners petitioned and protestors protested, that rationale is located conveniently in the very first line of the subsection. For Gwickwire's sake, I'll repost that here:
As a note to other editors, thepetitionsite.com was blacklisted back in 2010 (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Spam_blacklist#Petition_sites) and the "articulated rational" for that blacklisting is stated here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Spam_blacklist&oldid=2237861#thepetitionsite.com.2F1.2Fban-wikipedia and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist/Common_requests#Petitions . I am reminded of Wikipedia:SPS: “if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so.” See also: WP:Primary. Further, before anyone gets upset, I did suggest that the care2 petition was "not a preferred source" on the Green Mountain College Talk page on November 12th and again at 04:23, 04:34, and 04:40 on 12 November 2012 (UTC). I only discovered it was blacklisted this evening.Vt catamount (talk) 08:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The college made national headlines in the fall of 2012 over its plan to slaughter its pair of 11-year-old draft oxen, Bill and Lou, who had worked for the college for 10 years, and turn them into into hamburger meat for the dining hall.[20] The community decision was made after Lou was injured and it was determined that Bill would not accept a new partner.[20] GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school,[21] saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm.[22] The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who called for a reprieve. The college planned to slaughter the oxen by the end of October but postponed the event, saying area slaughterhouses were deluged with protests, some of them threatening.[23] In November, the college had Lou euthanized and buried his body off campus. Bill is slated to remain with the college.[24]" George McD (talk) 13:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC) Vt catamount is completely wrong: the care2 petition is a valid source because it is referenced in several sources, which I already posted above. I will do so again:
Kingsrow1975. I responded to every criticism you and Vt catamount made about my proposal, explaining why I believe they wholly lack merit. My criticisms went unanswered: it doesn’t demonstrate good faith on your part to simply dismiss them without explanation. PE2011 (talk) 17:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I think for this purpose we can use the petition itself to cite it, as we are in fact just describing the petition's stance. I do apologize for not expressing my replies in more detail by the way. But like I said, in this instance only I think it would be fine to cite the petition, such as citing a company's website for the number of employees it has (where else would you find that information). I think the rationale is needed to make the thought about the petition complete, by clarifying the stance of the petitioners. Like I have said, without some rationale, the reader is left wondering what the petitioners were petitioning for. If we can't come to a consensus on this, I don't know much else we can do here, I may need to refer this to either editor assitance for someone else to have yet another opinion, or if that doesn't work then maybe to mediation. Not yet though. Right now let's try this one last thing. Proposal: what is above, with the citation added of the petition itself. gwickwire | Leave a message 20:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
You know...on one hand, gwickwire's proposal sounds good, but the things Vt catamount has been bringing up has got me to thinking. I am not quite sure that I can support that just yet...at least while Vt catamount's questions remain unanswered.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 20:46, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
First of all, no problem about the EC, I've accidentally done that too sometimes. If nobody else objects to taking this to EA, or mediation, then I think that would be good at this point. This has gone on for quite some time now without any real consensus, and I don't feel that the DR board here is going to be able to help anymore. gwickwire | Leave a message 21:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
If anyone objects to this proposal, I feel we can't do much more here, so if anyone objects then I'll close this as failed, and apologize sincerely I wasn't able to do more. There isn't anything special you have to take, I'd suggest (just out of randomness) that Kingsrow takes it to EA, once again that was a random choice for me. gwickwire | Leave a message 21:19, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Then, on that note, I do sincerely apologize for not being able to do more, and wish you the best of luck in getting this resolved. Sorry again! gwickwire | Leave a message 21:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
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