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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 21:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vithoji Rao Holkar[edit]

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Vithoji Rao Holkar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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This article has only one source. I can't find more reliable source. There are some sources in Google, but they are dependent on Wikipedia only. Delete if better sources are not found. ThePremiumBoy (talk) 06:22, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment There is no significant coverage about him anywhere. It fails WP:GNG ThePremiumBoy 03:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RL0919 (talk) 06:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Ugh? He was a notable historical figure in India and a prince who was killed for a political reason, noted his rebellion and his death event by historian as end of the bridge is Holkar's Tomb, a temple to Mahadeo ( Siva ) in an oblong enclosure , erected in memory of Vithoji Rao Holkar, who was trampled to death by an elephant at Poona in 1802 [1]. His tomb was erected as a temple. I'm inclined to agree with the fact there's still actual historic significance and substance therefore enough for an article showing this. Searching his name in Hindi language have a bit more info. VocalIndia (talk) 06:01, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: As it stands, the article cannot be kept due to the dire lack of sources, and should be draftified at best. Geschichte (talk) 08:09, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Geschichte source. VocalIndia (talk) 08:41, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The nominator was blocked as a sock. VocalIndia (talk) 08:41, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Here are more sources I've found recently Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency - Volume 18, Issue 2 - Page 281 stated Vithoji Holkar Killed , 1801 , the respect of his people , Bájiráv gave his attention to distressing and pillaging all who had opposed either himself or his father.
    In Page 361 stated In 1801 Vithoji Holkar was captured in a house in Bhámburda village , and by order of Bájiráv Peshwa to please Sindia , was dragged to death at the foot of an elephant through the streets of Poona . It was Yaahvantrav Holkar's rage at his brother's murder that led to the flight of Brijiritv from Poona and the treaty of Bassein (30th December 1802).
    Maharashtra State Gazeteers: Maratha period - Page 115 — In March 1801 the rebels were defeated near the Māņ river . Vithoji Holkar was captured by Bāpū Gokhale and sent to Pooņā . Bājī Rāv wished to make an example of him so as to deter the partisans of Amột Rāv from further attempts .
    Selections from the Letters, Despatches, and Other State Papers — Vithoji Holkar , brother of the Marátha Chief , fell into Bájiráv's hands , and he caused him to be executed in his ... This cruel murder took place in the spring of 1801 , and on the 26th October 1802 the Resident at Poona announces ...
    Baji Rao II and the East India Company, 1796-1818 - Page 28 — Vithoji Holkar began his depredations in the districts round about Pandharpur . ... Furthermore , in April , Vithoji Holkar was seized by Bapu Gokhale and sent to Poona. and many other sources
    [2], [3], [4], [5].....

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the Vithoji Rao Holkar to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". VocalIndia (talk) 08:46, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Additional discussion on the potential for draftification may be helpful in obtaining consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Mhawk10 (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 01:24, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Per VocalIndia StellarHalo (talk) 09:20, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This article and AfD are a good illustration of why notability standards exist. The sources demonstrated by VocalIndia are independent and reliable (at least on the surface) but the totality of the text is not all that significant. What kind of article can be written from such passing mentions? Well, one like this one which barely mentions the nominal article subject and concerns mostly what others did. Even some of the actions of the article subject that are present are unsourced so we don't actually know much about them. Take out the unsourced and other people's actions and what is left is: He was born, he was captured, he was trampled by an elephant, and he was buried. Not actually an article. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 01:43, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commemt What the hell? He was a member of the royal court of the Holkar dynasty, a member of the Royal family, played a key role in the political rebellion against the other king, inherently notable as Holkar political system is an Absolute Monarchy where each prince can be considered to hold national or international office, making articles about them inherently valid as a US Senator or UK Minister of Parliament. Do note, the monarchy of Holkar kingdom can't be compared with today's useless Constitutional monarchy, there is definitely a greater notability as the royal court fills both political and communal functions. I've voted 'keep' for someone living circa 250 years ago that is quite a lot of detail including a multi-page biography that someone wrote about him. More than sufficient for a historical figure. If this were about someone from the 1940s or 1950s, then I would say that they do not meet WP:GNG. Even if they were from the historical period, would probably agree with the delete votes, but this type of referencing from millennia ago, passes WP:NPOL for his political significant. VocalIndia (talk) 03:25, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus that membership in a royal court grants inherent notability. At most, this argument suggests that this should be merged or redirected to Holkar. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hum? Royal Court is equivalent to the Privy Council at that time, by handling the court's internal affairs and also served as an interlocutor between the Raja (king) and other royal agencies, including the Parliament ! VocalIndia (talk) 20:03, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mirza Babur
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bhim Singh Rana,

Why guys are trying to compare between the modern political system and monarchy? Well, I also agree with Respected editor Bearian's Proper his own standards (not a guideline): "Even Spouses and children of Modern's deposed royalty could be notable, because their businesses, charity work, attendance at relatives' notable weddings, or a notable scandal often provides them with media attention.". In this case, "House of Holkar" is not a deposed one, but very powerful ruling dynasty at that time. He had played major roles in the political affairs of his dynasty and cases of succession to the throne. He appears as a significant player in numerous histories of His kingdom's game of thrones and so is clearly notable. How much do you need? VocalIndia (talk) 19:54, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What we need is actual sourcing for these statements. He had played major roles in the political affairs of his dynasty and cases of succession to the throne. How so? Why was his role "major"? Who says? He appears as a significant player in numerous histories Does he? Where are these histories? These statements appear to be extrapolations or interpretations of the sources that actually have been so far presented. What we know from these sources is nothing like as detailed or as significant as these claims. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:17, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Eggishorn Check again above sources, " In 1801 Vithoji Holkar was captured in a house in Bhámburda village , and by order of Bájiráv Peshwa to please Sindia , was dragged to death at the foot of an elephant through the streets of Poona . It was Yaahvantrav Holkar's rage at his brother's murder that led to the flight of Brijiritv from Poona and the treaty of Bassein (30th December 1802)." Ohh You know our country's history more than a native Indian? What is your problem? VocalIndia (talk) 20:30, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"The fact that he was killed for political reasons adds to this notability, and people can be curious about the basic facts of his life. An independent article makes the scant information about his life more easily accessible. You need to learn more AfD outcomes for historical figures, here is one Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eutropia (sister of Constantine I). This is the English language encyclopedia of the entire world, not the encylopedia of the English language speaking world. References to sources in Google Books and Tamil languages other than English are entirely acceptable to establish notability, although Book sources are preferable when readily available to choose from. VocalIndia (talk) 20:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@VocalIndia:, Nativism and nationalism are poor substitutes for argumentation. I did read the sources and Indian nationality is not a prerequisite to source evaluation. Even in this passage, there is still no support for your statements. Where is it said that he played a major role in the succession? Where is it said that his role in the kingdom was significant? The only events that his role is significant in according to this was his death. Every other claim you make for his notability is unsupported. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:47, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"The children of a monarch are notable." general consensus: says Necrothesp. He is eligible for an article whether or he had not involvement in the Holkar game of throne. Forgot to add other significant texts "Vithoji Holkar's death may be one of the factors influencing Yashwant Rao'sdecision, deserves the importance attributed to it." per [Baji Rao II and the East India Company, 1796-1818 - Page 30, Pratul Chandra Gupta · 1964]. VocalIndia (talk) 20:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, clearly passes GNG. The nominator being a sock might have contributed to the AFD being nominated in the first place. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:37, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vithoji_Rao_Holkar

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