The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 22:36, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Persecution and attacks against Ex-Muslims in Kerala[edit]

Persecution and attacks against Ex-Muslims in Kerala (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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POVFORK from ex-Muslims of Kerala Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 22:10, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 22:10, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kerala-related deletion discussions. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 22:10, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:07, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. POV forking is not an approved way of handling content disputes. Nothing to merge back. Stifle (talk) 11:18, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete And allow creation of a broader article which would include more than just Kerala. Shankargb (talk) 01:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Actually now we have enough credible sources to do encyclopedic paragraph writing about Persecution and attacks section in the article ex-Muslims of Kerala and likely to be updated soon for the same; So we need not consider List part as POV fork. As user User:Shankargb suggests I am for converting this list of persecutions into broader list article like Persecution and attacks against Ex-Muslims in South Asia. South Asian Muslim politics is diverse at regional level but underlying theological and cultural trends pertaining to orthodoxies and extremities are shared across which leads to persecution of skeptics and apostates. (For example denying burial space to apostates after death is part of culture of persecution shared by South Asian religious fanatics; I am speaking of fanatics only) Though due to persecution it takes time to come out as apostate in South Asia; Ex Muslims of South Asian descent are active globally specially in west where they get better freedom of expression and they share atheism globally. So there is also scope for an encyclopedic article Ex-Muslim activism from South Asia. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 04:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Since all comments are from the last 24 hours, let's give this a bit more time to see if there's any further interest in the discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ajpolino (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support changing the article's title and scope to Persecution of Ex-Muslims in South Asia per above. Shankargb (talk) 14:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. If needed, relevant notices may be posted on the article until it has been suitably expanded. Article's scope may be expanded to " Persecution of Ex-Muslims in South Asia" if deemed necessary. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 14:50, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I feel like this should be a list article. If it was though the inclusion criteria would be way broad and the article would ultimately be unmaintainable. Which you can't get around by acting like this isn't a list. Given that, I think this should be deleted, turned into a list, and probably deleted for the reasons I've given for why it wouldn't work as one. Either that, or just delete it now and call the whole thing good. I don't really care. It's not like there can't just be a brief mention in the original article with some kind of inclusion criteria outside of "lets have an article that lists every Muslim that's ever been persecuted or attacked in Kerala." Is anyone really going to argue that it's at all useful to have an article listing every single non-notable, minor instance of a Muslim being threatened by an extremist group or whatever in Kerala, let alone South Asia? --Adamant1 (talk) 05:24, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would like to know why persecutions of ex-muslims isnt an article worth having when it clearly passes WP:N, having been covered by multiple sources. If it becomes bloated, article may be trimmed to the important cases and a section for "others" created. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think I explained why it isn't an article worth having in my "vote" comment. What specific part of it do you disagree with or need clarification on? Outside of the question I will say though that just because there are a couple of news stories about specific instances of ex-Muslims being attacked doesn't automatically equate to the actual topic of Persecution and attacks against Ex-Muslims being covered by multiple sources. just like a local obituary in a newspaper for someone who died of COVID-19 is not say coverage of the wider topic of the pandemic in general. It's ridiculous to equate the two. To show this is a notable subject there would have to be sources actually discussing the topic. Not just cherry picking specific instances that fit an anti-Islamic narrative. Outside of that, the article is extremely non-neutral in it's premise, how it's written, and is clearly meant to be a sensationalist, anti-Islamic, pro-Hindu nationalist attack page. No article that exists purely for those reasons should exist on Wikipedia. It's not Wikipedia's job to host anti-Islamic propaganda. Period. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Question: Is there a way of considering Persecution and attacks against Ex-Muslims in Kerala and Ex-Muslims of Kerala together and considering merging them to something like Muslim apostasy in Kerala? That page could talk about the demographics of the state, becoming an Ex-Muslim in Kerala, the organisation that is there to support them and the acts of persecution against them.Gusfriend (talk) 07:36, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IMO the organization probably isn't notable. So there's zero reason to mention it anywhere else. Let alone merge this article to another one just so the information on the organization can be retained. If there's ultimately a consensus to delete the article because the organization isn't notable then the content about it should just stay deleted. Not recreated somewhere else as a run around to the AfD process. Talking about merging things and creating other articles is kind of a moot point until we determine one or another what if this should stay or not though. There's no point in merging anything into a completely new article if people determine the article is worth saving. Personally, I think the best option would be to delete it, add back whatever is worth retaining to the original article, which doesn't have to involve a merge, and then going from there. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:58, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Organisation is notable, multiple sources available to establish notability. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which multiple sources specifically? --Adamant1 (talk) 20:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment 2:Keep Hinduism aside, as far as Kerala is concerned it has almost 100 years history of rationalist movement (and Islamist fanaticism too), Kerala has strong Communist history of roughly 80 years. Even if one keeps conversion from Islam to other religions aside, New Atheism movement is sort of here to stay across religions. The new atheist movement has it's own other social media avenues and does not seem to be dependent on existence of Wikipedia articles for them. Over all issue has came up due to hasty creation of articles without articulating broad enough scope that does not mean credible enough sources to cover topics do not exist, they do exist to cover topics encyclopedic way in credible manner.IMHO Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:01, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I brought up Hinduism is because of this sentence in the article "The reason was bizarre, yet, heart-wrenching: they chose to renounce Islam and accept Hinduism as their religion." Which sounds anti-Islamic and pro-Hindu. Personally, I really care less about the religious aspect. Except that it is literally what the article is about. So there's no way to just "put it aside." In the meantime, there's plenty of articles out there about Anti-Christian persecution and attacks by Hindus and likely visa versa that we could just easily make an article out of if we decided to. I'm against them in general though, but it is non-neutral and extremely bias to treat Islam like their the only one's who persecutes and attacks ex-members or people from other religions. I'd probably support a Persecution and attacks against religious minorities in Kerala that includes Hindu attacks on Christians, Islamic attacks on ex-Muslims, and whatever else there is. But as it is this article is just a sensationalist, anti-Islamic, pro-Hindu nationalist attack page. Period. Otherwise, lets turn it into an article about the general topic of religious persecution in Kerela/South Asia and not just single out Muslims, like their some how uniquely prone to persecuting people or something. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose already there would be enough articles covering religious persecution and conflicts in south Asia. So for this article I am not keen on the 1947 incidence either we can tone down or shift to religious conflict article. But persecution of Ex Muslim Atheists of South Asia is not covered very well. Other religious communities have evolved and moved on with times accepting atheists with less violence, that is not the case with large sections Muslim communities across the world still struggle to accept atheism among Muslims i.e. apostasy from Islam even from family level, some tendencies and theological parts about apostasy are unique to Islam . So legitimate encyclopedic coverage of persecution of Ex Muslim with credible references deserves due encyclopedic space IMHO.

Secondly I am proposing larger scope of South Asia. For example Persecution of Ex Muslims of Pakistan or Bangladesh would have nothing to do with other religions. As such atheist Ex Muslim would have nothing to do with other religions, reliable sources suggest atheist Ex Muslims get persecuted from both sides one from their own community and secondly anti–community hate causing people do not understand their atheism based on their names they keep coping with that pressure too so case of Ex Muslims stand to be unique one in that sense. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I missed it there doesn't seem to be any Religious persecution in South Asia type articles. Nor even a one for Asia in general. Which honestly I'm kind of surprised about. There are various articles for religious persecution in particular countries though, including India. Maybe just merging/redirecting this to Freedom of religion in India would be a good step forward. Especially since from what I can tell the topic of ex-Muslim discrimination isn't even mentioned in the article. It would be weird to have an article specifically about kerala when it's not even covered in the general, country wide article though. IMO anything beyond that, like an article for South Asia, would be to broad of topic to be useful and I doubt it would be covered by multiple sources in any meaningful way anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:27, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Per Booku, but as Persecution of Ex-Muslims in South Asia. Wareon (talk) 19:38, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or Merge to Islam in Kerala: Not a single reliable source covers the subject of the article; Booku's barely coherent rhetoric borrowing from oriental stereotypes is not a substitute for reliable sources. To borrow from Adamant1,

  [J]ust because there are a couple of news stories about specific instances of ex-Muslims being attacked doesn't automatically equate to the actual topic of Persecution and attacks against Ex-Muslims being covered by multiple sources. just like a local obituary in a newspaper for someone who died of COVID-19 is not say coverage of the wider topic of the pandemic in general. It's ridiculous to equate the two. To show this is a notable subject there would have to be sources actually discussing the topic.

• It is ridiculous to change this article into an article on Persecution of Ex-Muslims in South Asia. If you have sources, write a separate article. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On one side I feel pragmatically merging in Islam in Kerala is not too bad idea. But on the other hand pushing Ex Mislim back in Islam related article is kind of perusing systemic bias against Ex Muslims. In Wikipedia most times (unintentionally though) atheist are clubbed to respective religion projects and talk page intimations go to religion project instead of skepticism project that too adds to syestemic bias Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 07:04, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not interested in a meta-discussion unless you can produce sources that cover our subject. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:30, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment can someone please point me to sources that discuss this topic as a whole, and in sufficient depth to warrant a standalone article? Vanamonde (Talk) 15:44, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Women's day around next month my focus is mainly shifting towards women's rights articles for coming couple of months. The new users who had started the article seem missing (on Wikipedia) as of now , So I suggest you can close the discussion either way or draftify. Only request is to at least leave the doors open enough when we work again on broader scope topic with credible references.

Thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bookku:, is that comment directed at me? I will not be closing this; religious conversion in the subcontinent is too close to other topics I've worked on. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:09, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. I see no sources treating this as a coherent topic. Depending on how individual incidents are covered, they may be worth covering under Islam in India, or Discrimination against atheists; but as things stand there's no evidence that this is a notable topic. Wikipedia isn't in the business of synthesizing primary sources to imply the existence of a topic that no secondary source has covered. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:14, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I see some evidence that violence against rationalists is seen as a coherent topic by reliable sources; a couple of the incidents listed here could conceivably be a part of an article on that subject. I will not be the one to write it, though. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. This is the crucial point. The article pulls together a bunch of incidents - the first o which took place fifty years before the others! - and claims that they are linked without citing any source that also makes that claim. Nwhyte (talk) 01:13, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Not a coherent topic. Cherry picked crime incidents and WP:LISTCRUFT. Kreately is a user generated blog site where anyone can post anything. Venkat TL (talk) 10:10, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.