The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There was a rough consensus that the subject does not meet WP:GNG in spite of the large amount of coverage available, much of which was identified as promotional. Modussiccandi (talk) 14:31, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lelo Sejean[edit]

Lelo Sejean (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is my 4th AFD nomination of this page going back 12 years. A vanity page. NOTHING at all notable that I can see. Only a low level amateur sportsman. Is the interview at http://www.elmensu.com/2022/01/20/sera-incluido-en-un-libro-inedito/ a reliable source? I don't read Spanish, but just seems like more ego boosting from a "novelty and peculiarity" than anything actually notable. The-Pope (talk) 12:02, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep 12 years ago, not my problem or responsibility, no depend on me, when the subject is important to PGY Football from 2020 and on, before 2020 is not my responsibility and 12 years ago much less my responsibilibity. Actualize you self with current time, my friend. I'm incharge of growth of PGY Football and PGY Edits. Where is your contribution to PGY Topic? User:Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro 13:21, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Lelo, as I assume from the level of detail int he article that you are either Lelo or have him sitting next to you telling you what to write, you need to read WP:COI to realise that NO ONE is in charge of any topic here. BTW, I've removed the "athletics" section, as the performances listed are not even at junior girls level. We only write articles about people who are actually notable, not those who believe that they are notable themselves. The-Pope (talk) 13:59, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Page is Important to PGY Football on year 2020 and forward, before this is NO my responsibility, and The subject has record of long presence in CONMEBOL as Oceania Footballer and is important to Football in PGY I'm in charge of PGY Football Portal and PGY Articles, and your contribution? Eike nde revikuape nde tembo. User:Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro 14:05, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are TEMBO User:Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro 14:14, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The-Pope is PUTO. Stayaway from Paraguay Articles you never edited Paraguay before. Puto. Inutil. Infeliz.User:Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro 16:04, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Charming. Add WP:NPA to your reading list. WP:AIV will be the next destination if you don't immediately retract all of your insults. The-Pope (talk) 17:17, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I say again, the football player not soccer player, is longest of all non CONMEBOL football player in PGY out of all nationalities Football in Paraguay##Foreign football players and of all it's continent is the longest presence in CONMEBOL as footballer. Page is notable, again I say, of the year 2020 and on. DRAFT: was created in 2020 for it and Marcos Caballero and both accepted, important and known footballers of the PGY Football League, even if lower. It is commemorated. User:Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro 15:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. The-Pope (talk) 12:02, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. The-Pope (talk) 12:02, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Fashion, Lebanon, France, Australia, and Paraguay. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 12:10, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 12:16, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per previous AFD where it was established that GNG had been met. GiantSnowman 16:35, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Have you checked how many are actually from reliable sources? WP:REFBOMB is a thing. Publicity hungry people feeding time-poor journalists willing to write about anything appears to be a valuable mix. Also, he's been through AFDs on the Italian and Spanish Wikipedias too. The-Pope (talk) 17:46, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I've significantly cleaned up the article, removing puffery and unnecessary details. I don't have a stance whether the article should remain or not, though. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:35, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Can someone explain to me what this person's career is actually like? Apparently he's been in Paraguayan soccer for several years, except he has been frequently injured, only appeared in five games (none in the top division of the soccer leagues there) and never scored a goal, and has never even received a salary from any club in the country? In terms of involvement in the top level of sport, on a scale somewhere between Lionel Messi and an amateur who occasionally plays in a friendly game of soccer, where would this person appear? I don't literally need an answer to that question, but he seems to be closer to the latter, as attested by the statement, "While playing in Paraguay, Sejean never received a salary from any club, and was held to cover his economic necessities by sports sponsorships, confessing in 2020 that his sponsors provided food for him when he experienced hunger, and through streams of labour, as English teaching at schools in Asunción and Ciudad del Este, acting as an English Communicator for Asunción club Deportivo Recoleta by or during 2020, modelling, and working at a milk bar." An athlete who doesn't earn enough money (or have sufficient food provided by his team) to avoid hunger is probably very far from being a notable athlete. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:12, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: I agree with the nominator, the article is about a person who does not meet the required notability. Most of the clubs he played for plays in the lower divisions and he has not played for any national team.--Sakiv (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The content is notable for 1 - longest presence as non CONMEBOL foreigner in PGY of all of the nationalities a part from CONMEBOL and 2 - is longest presence of his continent in all of CONMEBOL. The content is notable of 2020 and on, before this is not my responsibility cause DRAFT: page was prepared for this in 2020 I am a good editor and most of my time is in expanding PGY Topics and Football in PGY or you want do it for me? Avisame amigo User:Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro 00:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Neither points are covered by WP:NFOOTY; WP:GNG needs to be demonstrated (which maybe it is, maybe not?). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:48, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep it's been only 2 months since the last AFD, which had a consensus to keep. He hasn't become less notable in that time, and the article is better than it was then (as some of the rubbish content has been removed). Joseph2302 (talk) 09:11, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep (unfortunately). Seems to me that the subject easily fails NFOOTBALL or any NSPORT, and fails GNG on the basis of any sport. However, they do seem to get a lot of coverage, rightly or wrongly. The coverage has also been sustained and broad. And, when the subject appears in mainstream IRS like the SBS one has to think twice about the subject's notability. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not grounds for deletion. The article still needs some clean up, and some of the statements are exaggerated, but not enough for TNT, and AfD is not CLEANUP. So in my view the subject does pass general notability hence keep. (But no, I do not like the article as it stands.) Aoziwe (talk) 11:34, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoziwe:, you should actually look at those sources, though. It's an impressive-looking list at first glance. None of the sources qualify as reliable. It's all smoke and mirrors. Fred Zepelin (talk) 16:46, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fred Zepelin. You will see that I have got the broom to some of it too. As I stated above I do not like it. But unless someone can validly clean it all out, I feel I have to take what is left on face value. The SBS example is a case in point. If someone can with a high degree of confidence "prove" that this was lazy journalism by a normally reliable and independent source, then I think I could change my !vote relatively easily. Aoziwe (talk) 10:29, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and rereapply the salt. GNG is "not a guarantee, that a subject merits its own article." even if there is a pass of GNG which I dispute. What sources are actually good for GNG? Let's have a look at what we have here. An unpaid football player without much of the playing bit. A less successful Carlos Kaiser? At least Kaiser was paid for not playing. Who did Sejean play for? Club Deportivo Sol del Este? The only one he had more than 1 game with? Look at the game photo. Top level there. Funny how he "began suffering from inflammation in the aquilian tendons due to excessive use" after managing to appear in one game. Brags about his athletics ability, competing as an "elite javelin thrower" [1], throwing a massive best of 36m. That's good enough to qualify for the Australian Championships. Well, for Under 14s that is. Source gets worse. "Sejean also hopes for a green and gold debut when Australia plays in the 2020 Copa America in June." I'm also not good enough to play professionally, perhaps I'll get to debut next time they play in Australia. An absolute junk source like so much of what is out there. Let's look at the SBS source mentioned above. "competes in elite athletics in Paraguay, with javelin and long jump." [2]. So another one with a total lack of any fact checking, so not a reliable source. Just a throwaway feel good piece based entirely on what he is saying. How about the ones Joseph linked in the last afd. The Geelong piece is a puff piece look what this local is doing from the same terrible Geelong Indy rag as above. The other two are promo pieces from a site showing no sign of being an independent reliable source. Who are they, who wrote these pieces? Are there any good sources? What sources are out there. Lots of barely watched videos of him training or of him failing to break world records. Lots of non-reliable sources based on things he has said. This is just a self-promoter with no significant achievements who occasionally gets lazy journos to reproduce his claims unchecked. How about the gallery of him standing alone in empty fields, posing outside closed stadiums? Makes him look even less noteworthy. Why so many SPAs on commons dedicated to posting pictures of him training alone. Salt again due to the long history of socks, ownership and attacks and the bad faithed gaming of the system by restarting the page at a different title to avoid salt. duffbeerforme (talk) 06:20, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

duffbeerforme As I said above, I do not like it either, but I do not think it can be discounted. I have done a bit of pruning of content (unreliable primary IMO) based on interviews, but there is still more than would leave me feeling comfortable changing at this point. Aoziwe (talk) 11:49, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PS For us to simply dismiss what would normally be regarded as a very reliable and independent source such as the SBS as lazy journalism without some independent evidence to that effect, I fear would make us no better than the delete opinion needs to assert about the standing of this article. Aoziwe (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The comment about competing at an "elite level" of athletics in javelin and long jump, but his bests of 36m and 4.93m are not at all notable distances. 13 year old girls do better in my state, let alone the whole country. To me that's evidence that it's a puff piece. I reached out to the journalist on twitter to ask, but he didn't reply after I told him of my concerns. The-Pope (talk) 14:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I am missing something but I cannot see the distances in the SBS article? I can find the distances in older sources, but the subject could have improved since then. I just think we cannot be sloppy even if believe the article is grossly sloppy with its facts. Aoziwe (talk) 14:25, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair to Sejean, His 100m time would beat all Australian 9yo girls. duffbeerforme (talk) 04:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is only so much benefit of the doubt you can give someone. He hasn't updated his records on his YouTube page though. And, IMO, when you have documented evidence of the poor results (links to the official results were in the article), and a passing mention in a questionable article with no specific details or references for "elite" performance, that sort of goes precisely opposite to the intention of WP:GNG. The-Pope (talk) 05:49, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per all of the arguments in the above delete votes. This is an impressive list of unreliable sources, and it took a lot of time to build, so I suspect someone is paying someone to make this subject look as notable as possible, but I agree with the editors above - just doesn't meet WP:GNG. Fred Zepelin (talk) 06:51, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

His acting and modelling career is even more farcical. Is there any reliable source connecting him with this 'Elijah Sejean' bloke? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None at all that I can find, so I have removed it. Aoziwe (talk) 12:24, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoziwe, @Spiderone: Seems like it is the same dude, per here. "Sí, no se los contamos de entrada para no impresionarlos (?), pero Lelo Sejean es, antes que nada, un artista. Y como tal, tiene un nombre artístico: Elijah Sejean." But I still don't think the article is notable enough to stay. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 02:31, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BrazilianDude70 Sorry but that article is useless. It is quoting from here in Wikipedia, "Para empezar a desarrollar su camino, tenemos que tener en cuenta su Wikipedia." Aoziwe (talk) 10:13, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that it isn't the only one that's sourced to Wikipedia either! Sejean and/or his agent have been working overtime on this one. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete fails GNG - looking through the sources, none of them meet the requirements. BilledMammal (talk) 15:40, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. With Calm, and as Creator of Page in 2020, and read the claim for Deletion, I sympathize in part, cause when I create New Pages of PGY Footballers or Footballers in PGY, the first information I search of a footballer is - Transfermarket - FBRef - Football Data Base - Soccerway - Cero a Cero, and how can you have Profile of Transfmarkt, FBRef, Football Data Base, if you play in the PGY Asenscion Leagues? But, is why, because of unsure, I created DRAFT Pages for Elie Charbel Lelo Sejean and Marcos Caballero on 2020, and on 2020 and Forward was both very Important to PGY Football, and both Pages approved and stay with reason and motive of Notability. Marcos Caballero was deleted in past but I recreated and more convincingly. In response, I say you, I dedicate my time to expand the PGY Football topics and PGY topics in all areas, and see all my edits and you say me good edits. In current page, the item has all important information removed by user Nehme1499 (talk · contribs), and now is unnotable. But I repeat is important to PGY Football as Long Foreign Footballer in Continent and is important to Ciudad del Este just on the grounds that Marcos Caballero is important and a figure to Sportivo Ameliano and the PGY Ascension Leagues. And is Football and not Soccer, and is Elie Charbel Lelo Sejean and not Lelo Sejean. Check with the Asociación Paraguaya de Fútbol entonces Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro (talk · contribs) 18:06, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Much like the article and its REFBOMB list itself, this is a lot of text that does nothing to establish notability. I'd encourage whoever reviews this discussion to notice that the references are all fluff. The Keep votes have ignored this -- the Delete votes have pointed it out. Fred Zepelin (talk) 02:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I repeat you that I sympathize and I understand you. Thank you Fred Zepelin (talk · contribs), for your seriousness on this theme and for no insulting my edits cause I am apenas using google translate and copying other english wording, now is in the hands of the reviewer.Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro (talk · contribs) 02:52, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with The-Pope that you are either Lelo or have him sitting next to you telling you what to write. Fred Zepelin (talk) 02:59, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I would go for a weak delete, but I'm not so sure of it. Definitely WP:REFBOMB by an user who does not respect WP:NPA at all. The evidence for my last claim is right here above my message, when he goes by calling someone a "motherf*cker" (hdp is hijo de puta, a clear Spanish swear)... Back to the nomination, I would ask someone to do a major cleanup on the article, because there aren't many WP:RS over the subject, and most of the article's content seem like a self-promotion for a rarely notable player in a more expansive context. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 02:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Rojodiablcerrocerrocerro (talk · contribs)'s insults towards The-Pope in this discussion page, along with his disruptive editing on the article in question warrant a block imo. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 22:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nehme1499 - I would have to agree. We all have disagreements with each other at AfD over things but there's a line and some of these comments have definitely crossed it. Taken them to WP:ANI. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:24, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and salt: I agree that this is refbombing to gull careless voters into thinking this meets the GNG, that the sources don't actually provide significant coverage to this otherwise non-notable subject beyond routine sports coverage, and that the mistakes and knee-jerk follow-the-leader votes in the prior AfDs don't bind our hands now. Ravenswing 20:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and salt This article is entirely a vanity piece. It's not so much a case of the references failing to demonstrate notability... they clearly demonstrate non-notability. This elite javelin thrower has a video on his youtube channel of him throwing near his personal best in 2015 at 28 m. World record is 98.48 m. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 16:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Good grief. My brother's best javelin throw (which was good enough for 3rd place in our state's high school championship in 1979) was over 50 meters. Ravenswing 07:22, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - I was fooled in the previous discussion and voted keep hastily without consideration for COI and without fully considering whether the sources are reliable or not. It's quite clear that Sejean has been campaigning for many, many years to get a Wikipedia article and that most of the references are completely worthless. Wikipedia should remain firm against UPE/COI articles like this and I strongly agree with the deletion arguments raised here. Sejean has received significant coverage, correct, but GNG also requires the coverage to be independent of the subject which I strongly believe to be untrue here. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:20, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and Salt This page has been deleted three times before. Enough is enough! Fails WP:NFOOTBALL resoundingly. Tries to squeak in under WP:GNG because he's an Australian in a South American country. Nope.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Look at the player list for the club he played for: Club Deportivo Sol del Este. He’s the only player? And the club stopped because of financial difficulties? Some of the information presented stretches credulity. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 05:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.