The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Tone 16:08, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Feyzullah Aktürk[edit]

Feyzullah Aktürk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Not nearly enough in-depth coverage from independent reliable sources to pass GNG, and doesn't meet NSPORTS. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 23:13, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wrestling-related deletion discussions. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 23:13, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:15, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 23:15, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as a sportsperson only having achieved in junior level. I more than welcome the article back when the subject has achieved in the senior World Championships. Geschichte (talk) 10:10, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 10:51, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Success at the junior level is not sufficient to meet WP:NSPORT or WP:MANOTE. I think there's a good chance he'll have success at the adult level and can have an article then, but right now that requires a WP:CRYSTALBALL. Papaursa (talk) 04:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Screw the SNG, this individual meets the GNG. How exactly did you come to the conclusion that he didn't anyways? This source of Milliyet and this one of Fanatik, both reliable, independent and significant and about different things, were already in the article before nomination. In addition to that I found another source of Fanatik, another one by Milliyet, this piece by Habertürk and this article by TRT. ~Styyx^{Talk? ^-^} 20:54, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reporting that consists solely of sports results and an article about the state of Turkish wrestling do not constitute significant coverage of this particular individual. Papaursa (talk) 23:52, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It does, if the individual is a major part of the articles.

• Delete. The sources provided in the article and AfD are routine and not SIGCOV. JoelleJay (talk) 02:41, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep passes GNG.--Ortizesp (talk) 02:44, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Per Nom, and users Geschichte, Papaursa, and JoelleJay. Screwing GNG would likely fall under "Arguments to avoid". The five points of GNG are inclusive and not discretionary and help determine if a subject has passing or lasting and sustained coverage. A BLP needs more than fan coverage and sports scores. Also, multiple use of the same sources count as one towards notability. It is likely just too soon unless there is more independent coverage out there than I could find. -- Otr500 (talk) 19:07, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete fails WP:GNG though lack of significant coverage; I agree with the source assessment table. BilledMammal (talk) 02:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source assessment table:
Source	Independent?	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
https://www-milliyet-com-tr.translate.goog/skorer/feyzullah-akturkten-altin-madalya-2886462?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp			Routine youth sports reporting: "According to the statement made by the Turkish Wrestling Federation, 97 kilosFeyzullah Akturk, defeated Moldovan Radu Lefter by pin and became the owner of the gold medal."	✘ No
https://www-fanatik-com-tr.translate.goog/feyzullah-akturkten-bronz-madalya-2082184?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp			Routine youth sports reporting: "National athlete Feyzullah Aktürk won the bronze medal in the men's freestyle 97 kilos at the World Youth Wrestling Championship. The national wrestler won the bronze medal by defeating his Chinese rival Reheman Rusidanmu, who came from repechage after his US and Ukrainian rivals, with the point key (11-1)."	✘ No
https://www-fanatik-com-tr.translate.goog/feyzullah-akturk-bronz-madalya-icin-yarisacak-2012461?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp			Routine youth sports reporting: "In the World Youth Wrestling Championship, national athlete Feyzullah Aktürk won the bronze medal match. At the World Junior Wrestling Championship held in Slovakia, national athlete Feyzullah Aktürk won the bronze medal match. Feyzullah Aktürk lost his chance to play for the gold medal by losing to Russian Magomedkhan Magomedov in the semi-final match of 97 kg. The national athlete will face his opponent from the repechage in the third place match."	✘ No
https://www.milliyet.com.tr/skorer/feyzullah-akturk-dunya-ucuncusu-oldu-2495473			Routine youth sports reporting: "National wrestler Feyzullah Aktürk, who hit the mat at 120 kg, defeated Bulgarian rival Daniel Milanov Veselinov 3-0 in his first match, and lost 3-1 to Iranian Naeiim Rahim Hassanzadeh in the quarterfinals. Playing in the repechage match after his opponent made it to the final, the national athlete won the bronze medal by defeating Polish Jakub Brylewski 2-0 and in the fight for third place, Mongolia's Erdenetulga Davaadorj 3-0."	✘ No
https://www.haberturk.com/kahramanmaras-haberleri/93079462-turkiye-serbest-gures-sampiyonasi-sona-erdiagir-siklette-feyzullah-akturk-altin-madalyanin			Routine sports reporting: " In the heavyweight division, Feyzullah Aktürk won the gold medal in the 92 kilograms category,"	✘ No
https://www-trtspor-com-tr.translate.goog/haber/diger-sporlar/gures/akturk-lapsekide-ciceklerle-karsilandi-246678.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp			4 sentences about his winning a medal and being congratulated by a mayor, plus a quote from the mayor.	✘ No
https://www.haberler.com/kirkpinar-baspehlivanlarindan-feyzullah-akturk-14263866-haberi/			4 sentences about his winning a medal and being congratulated by a mayor, plus a quote from the mayor.	✘ No
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/sports/turkey-wins-1-gold-7-bronze-in-junior-world-wrestling/1559245			Name listed among others	✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

Coverage is exclusively routine and offers nothing in any depth (or even anything more than 4-5 brief sentences reporting match results). Fails GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 05:20, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete fails WP:GNG though lack of significant coverage as per the source assessment table above. Cassiopeia talk 05:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I don't really like these source assessment tables. Just because something is presented more elaborately, it doesn't make it true. The only point that the table makes is that the coverage of this person in RS is WP:ROUTINE, but there is no actual argument to back up this assertion - no, providing quotes doesn't make this an argument and just the fact that scores are reported doesn't mean that this is routine coverage. In fact, I would say that the coverage is explicitly non-routine e.g. looking at Milliyet's coverage of the World Junior Wrestling Championships, we see that they do not routinely report on this event, but only choose to report when there is a notable accomplishment by a Turkish national. The coverage is not there because Milliyet routinely reports on this tournament, it is there because Aktürk had a newsworthy accomplishment. This is the case for all the other news articles, and it is possible to weave together a decent, well-sourced biography using these sources. Remember that WP:ROUTINE covers "Planned coverage of scheduled events, especially when those involved in the event are also promoting it" - I don't see evidence of such planned coverage here. I also fail to see how these articles don't meet WP:SIGCOV - there is clearly no need for original research to extract information about the individual, and there is definitely more than a trivial mention of the person in these articles; his accomplishments are the main focus. I am also easily able to find other sources e.g. [1] - note that Aktürk won the Kırkpınar Wrestling Tournanment (which has been held for over 600 years) and earned the title of başpehlivan, which is the most prestigious title in Turkish wrestling. I know this isn't in NSPORTS (although I don't truly see a difference from e.g. College Football Hall of Fame), but it does indicate that further sources are highly likely to be found. --GGT (talk) 14:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I appreciate your giving such a thorough response. The quoted text in the table constitutes the entirety of the text on Akturk in a source, not just a snippet of it, and in most of the articles his performance is mentioned alongside that of all other Turkish competitors. SIGCOV is not achieved with three-sentence tournament recaps, and certainly not with the single sentence on him in Millyet (this is especially true for media coverage of youth athletics, which have stricter notability requirements). The Haberturk article you linked is syndicated ("All Çanakkale news, which is covered by Anadolu Agency, DHA, İHA, is included in this section as it comes automatically from the agency channels, without any editorial intervention by Haberturk.com editors") from the same İHA source as the penultimate two sources in the table. It is local routine signing coverage, and the lack of a byline additionally suggests it is a press release (other AA/İHA articles name the author). Syndicated articles are not intellectually independent of each other; a local paper changing the original news agency headline to highlight a local athlete's performance doesn't suddenly make the coverage non-routine or make him the main focus of an article. JoelleJay (talk) 22:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for a detailed reply. The bottom line regarding SIGCOV is that there is no need for original research to extract the content from the article and that it is a non-trivial mention. WP:SIGCOV explicitly states that we are not looking for him to be the main focus of the article - we're definitely not expecting a biographical treatise, and there is no arbitrary cutoff for the number of sentences needed to count as SIGCOV. Of course I'm not denying the brevity of the coverage in each individual source, but there is enough of it across various sources to weave together a good biography without any original research, entirely based upon reliable and independent sources - and that's all we need to clear GNG. Sports articles by Turkish news agencies do not regularly feature author names, so I disagree that this suggests that it is a press release in this instance; on the other hand, it does indicate a judgement of newsworthiness by a national news agency. Local wrestling signups aren't usually picked up by national news agencies as far as I can tell. I should finally note that I'm not too comfortable with the liberal use of copyrighted quotes in this discussion. They're not necessary to make the point and the amount quoted for some articles constitutes a rather significant part of the original work. I'm not convinced that these quotes can be regarded as fair use, so I suggest that you remove them. --GGT (talk) 00:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  So, I realize there is a lot of interpretation as to what SIGCOV means, and I think it's helpful to look at it in the context of the NSPORT guidelines as well as the consensus across other athlete AfDs. Firstly, it is extremely difficult for youth competitors to meet NSPORT, particularly because achievements at the youth level are almost never considered encyclopedic (else we would have articles on every Little League World Series player right off the bat _sorry). Nothing beyond brief mentions of his final results would be WP:DUE in an article on Akturk, not that there was much more info on him in any of the news reports anyway. And, per WP:YOUNGATH, NONE of those sources could contribute to notability: High school and pre-high school athletes are notable only if they have received, as individuals, substantial and prolonged coverage that is: (1) independent of the subject; and (2) clearly goes beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage... The second clause... especially excludes using game play summaries, statistical results, or routine interviews as sources to establish notability (emphasis mine).

  Secondly, there are millions of people who do not meet any sport-specific notability guideline (SSG) but DO appear in a tremendous number of signing/transfer/draft/injury articles. If this was sufficient for SIGCOV the criterion for meeting basically every SSG would be "college athlete, or varsity HS athlete at a highly-ranked institution". But the community has come to the consensus that such material is not SIGCOV, and that is why sports scores (which is exactly what the first 5 sources are; they are strictly relaying the match outcomes announced to press agencies by the Turkish Wrestling Federation) are explicitly mentioned in WP:ROUTINE.

  Regarding the AA agency link you provided, both the article and its picture are bylined: Suha Gur and Serhat Çağdaş, respectively. National news agencies have local chapters where material of local interest is reported, often directly from PR groups ; the IHA article on Akturk meeting a mayor is specifically curated in "Local News -- Canakkale", alongside an announcement that the president of a regional amateur sports league was reelected as its chairman and a report of someone being detained for growing marijuana (with a picture of the seized goods and adorable "[s]ensitive-nosed drug-seeking dog 'Roket'"). JoelleJay (talk) 05:09, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as some others have said, Junior level is not enough. He can have an article once he has made his name at the Senior level championships.-Imcdc (talk) 07:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.