The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The article reads in its entirety "The Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica Italiana ("Italian Old-Catholic Church") is an Old Catholic churches in Italy", referenced to a link to the group's website. After two weeks of AfD, nobody has found and added any secondary sources. The article therefore clearly fails WP:V, which rules out the merger proposed by some. Sandstein 08:15, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica Italiana[edit]

Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica Italiana (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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This alleged organisation has almost no secondary RS to support its existence, and none has been added in the 15 years of existence of the Wikipedia article.
The article claims without any source that this groups has been existing for more than two centuries, which seems false to me as in this case there would be many secondary RSs discussing this denomination; however, only one such RS mentions unreliable source discusses this group, the Enciclopedia delle religioni in Italia (Centro studi sulle nuove religioni, 2001, which is considered unreliable) which states (p. 49) the 2-century existence of the organisaton is a claim and not a fact. I found no other RS on Google Books and on Google Scholar which even mention this organisation, and found respectively two and one mention(s) in total of this organisation on those databases, including the one in the Enciclopedia delle religioni in Italia.
This organisation clearly does not meet WP:NCHURCH, being discussed in only one RS. "A single significant independent source is almost never sufficient for demonstrating the notability of an organization" (Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Multiple sources).
I recommend deletion. Veverve (talk) 17:30, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Veverve (talk) 17:30, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Veverve (talk) 17:30, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Not one mention in the resources available through the Wikipedia Library, fails WP:NCORP. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:29, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Even the source found by the nominator is not reliable. It is self-published, being written by the founders of its publisher CESNUR, which has been found to be unreliable at WP:RSN. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Phil Bridger: thanks for pointing this out, it has indeed been declared unreliable. For those interested, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#CESNUR. I will edit my AfD nomination statement. Veverve (talk) 10:19, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Previously nominated via WP:PROD, ineligible for soft deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 00:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The only sources cited are (a) the church's own website and (b) three 19th century documents or sets of documents, but I'm not even sure whether they discuss this specific church, and aren't cited to support any particular statement in the article. That's not enough to pass WP:ORG. If the church really is notable, some independent, reliable sources need to be provided to prove that. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Metropolitan90: none of the three 19th-century documents given as external links mention this group. Veverve (talk) 07:37, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Old Catholic Church Merge and redirect to Old Catholic Church in Italy This is a translation of the same article in the Italian Wikipedia, which also lacks reliable sources (as is their wont). The English translation of the title is "Old Catholic Church". The article on Old Catholic Church does not have much on Italy, so it makes sense that someone thought the Italian aspect of this history was worth noting. I did find articles in G-scholar searching on "chiesa vetero-cattolica" on this general topic, some of which were clearly about Italy. Ditto G-books. Books in English on the topic may have information about the Italian movement, e.g. this book which has 34 mentions of Italy. I also found one online site, Bottegadinazareth, a religious publication probably not entirely independent. The name varies in these texts, sometimes being in the plural form, which makes it hard to search on. So it's a real thing with a real theological history, some of which takes place in Italy. I'm willing to do a first pass at merge if someone will remind me. Lamona (talk) 22:29, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lamona: I fail to understand you argument (you are perhaps proposing a WP:RLOTE). If you search for the Italian translation of "Old Catholic Church", then you will indeed find sources discussion the Old Catholic movement. You can do that with any language. The article is not about the Old Catholic movement in Italy, but about an alleged specific groups of Old Catholics in Italy. The question is: which sources discuss this particular group, whose website is https://www.chiesaveterocattolica.it ? Veverve (talk) 17:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• merge -- This is a denomination, though probably a small one, rather than a mere local church. It should probably be called Old Catholic Church in Italy. I find that such an article already exists, so that this sohould probably be merged there. I am not clear if both articles relate to the same denomination; if not, they can still be accommodated within one article. The external links cite three Anglican sources. These will be external to the denomination. Why are these not RS? I am reluctant to support a merge to Old Catholic Church, because that will upset the balance of that article. There are no doubt many national manifestations of that denomination/movement, which might be listed in that article, but could not be appropriately covered in it. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:48, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Peterkingiron Good catch - I hadn't thought to look for Old Catholic Church in Italy. I agree that any merging should be done to that article. I'm neutral on whether a redirect is needed. Lamona (talk) 00:23, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Peterkingiron: The external links cite three Anglican sources. These will be external to the denomination. Why are these not RS?: as I wrote above, none of those external links - which are 19th-century sources - are related to or mention this alleged group whose existence is so far unproven.

It is clear to me the Old Catholic Church in Italy is not the same as the Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica Italiana. Where do you get the idea those could be the same group? Veverve (talk) 17:33, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Veverve Can you give any sources that would explain this? Everything I've read puts the Italian "version" of the Old Catholic Church as evolving from the same history as the OCC in the rest of Europe. It appears that it has taken a somewhat different direction in each culture, but the basic tenets seem to be coherent. The Italian web site gives this: "la Missione Cristiana Cattolica Italiana, assumendo la denominazione di Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica Italiana, seguita la sua Opera sostenendo e divulgando il Rito antico, il Sacerdozio dei laici e la Scienza- Arte Salutare Cristica" and I read that's what is defined in the Old Catholic Church article. However, I had not noticed that there is *also* an article Old Catholic Church in Italy, which seems to cover the same ground as this one, and gives the Italian name as *Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica in Italia*. There are articles for Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands, Old Catholic Church of America, but also Old Catholic Church in Italy, Old Catholic Church in Poland etc. It seems this needs some theological expertise. In any case I still think that there is no reason to keep this nominated article, and if there is relevant information in it then perhaps the merge should be to Old Catholic Church in Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamona (talk • contribs) 00:10, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lamona: Again, I do not understand what you are trying to argue. All Old Catholics agree on a set of tenets, a core doctrine, just like any Christian denomination. The article is not about how Old Catholicism developed in Italy, but is about a specific group of Old Catholics. Old Catholic Church in Poland, Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands and Old Catholic Church in Italy are not general articles about the History of Old Catholicism in Poland, the Netherlands or in Italy; those articles are about specific groups which happen to be called "Old Catholic Church in Poland", "Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands" and "Old Catholic Church in Italy".

The Old Catholic Church in Italy's website is [1], while the Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica Italiana's website is [2]. They are therefore clearly not the same group. Veverve (talk) 07:48, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you read through those two links you see that one is under the umbrella of the Conferenza Episcopale Internazionale di Utrecht, which was an umbrella organization for all of the "old catholics". The second one explains that the Italian group separated from the Utrect organization in 1997. ("Dal 1997 si è resa autonoma dal patronato della Conferenza Episcopale Internazionale di Utrecht per mantenersi fedele al principio conciliare della Chiesa Antica.") This history is included in the article for Old Catholic Church in Italy: "The Old Catholic Church in Italy (Italian: Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica in Italia) was a Union of Utrecht of the Old Catholic Churches (UU) mission in Italy until 2011. Some former missions are in full communion with the Anglican Communion." So those two are different phases of the same group. If you have evidence of yet another group that needs to be accommodated, please present it. (I note that the article on Old Catholic Church does not link to Old Catholic Church in Italy and I see nothing on the talk page to explain this.) Lamona (talk) 15:31, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The dates do not match (1997 vs 2011) so it cannot be the same group. Moreover, the Union of Utrech (UU) has many churches which are part of it, so it is possible there were two distinct, independent Old Catholic groups in Italy part at one point of the UU and left it at some point. Moreover, your whole argument relies on those WP:PRIMARY SOURCES being reliable, which is quite a bold assumption for such a small unknown group. Veverve (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. There are lots of churches which are, or have been, part of the Independent Catholicism movement, some of which specifically identify themselves as Old Catholic, but not all of which are members of the Union of Utrecht (Old Catholic). This article is about a particular church known as Chiesa Vetero-Cattolica Italiana, and the question is whether we have adequate sources discussing this church as opposed to other churches with similar names. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.