The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) BilledMammal (talk) 23:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alfred Hollings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:NSPORT; played seven matches in the twenties, but otherwise has no claim to significance. BilledMammal (talk) 21:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople and Cricket. BilledMammal (talk) 21:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Valid stub awaiting development. When the matches were played is irrelevant. He played in seven first-class matches for one of the leading clubs in New Zealand and so a WP:BEFORE should have been done with focus on New Zealand sources. NGS ^{Shakin' All Over} 22:30, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • When the matches was played is relevant, because there was less coverage historically. And a WP:BEFORE was done, but I did not find anything. Were you able to? BilledMammal (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have to. The onus is on you; and you are also required to alert the article creator about an AfD. I have informed Lugnuts. Good night. NGS ^{Shakin' All Over} 22:37, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to keep the article the onus is also on you; my search of NZ Newspaper Archives turned up nothing, and now you need to provide evidence that WP:GNG is met. And I did not notify Lugnuts because he has asked that I not do so. BilledMammal (talk) 22:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When you say your search of Papers Past turned up "nothing", do you literally mean nothing? Because I reckon I have passing references - at university, his marriage and then probably working in the legal profession by 1945 - with a firm with his name in the title. He very definitely appears in match reports (try Hollings cricket wellington and restrict the search to the period between 1925 and 1932ish) - opened the batting against a touring Auckland side in early 1926 for example. There's nothing (yet) of the sort of in depth coverage that I'd be looking for, (e2a: but, for clarity, not just in scorecards - he's discussed as an "outstanding" batsman or in "fine form", for example) but there's more than nothing. Blue Square Thing (talk) 23:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, the search I suggest above throws up, oh, more than 1,500 articles - there will be obvious syndication as usual at this point, so some are duplicates. Not all of them contain gems, but, for example this one has a little more. The problem is that frankly I don't have the time to go through them all and the snippet view won't show enough to know if you have to click or not. Blue Square Thing (talk) 23:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Alfred Hollings" turns up literally nothing. "A Hollings" turns up a little more, but nothing significant - the closest is this 1927 article, and this 1930 article. I just tried another query, "Hollings" "Plunket Shield" which produced 597 results, but nothing significant - some passing mentions that go beyond statistics, such as this 1926 article, but nothing more, though I haven't reviewed every article. BilledMammal (talk) 23:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, that'll be why you got no hits in that time slot. I'm close to getting enough about his play to think again about whether or not to keep you know. It's not clear cut right now - and we don't have access to any obituaries via papers past. Blue Square Thing (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or redirect to List of Wellington representative cricketers. The above exchange demonstrates that the nominator has done the requisite WP:BEFORE with no SIGCOV being found. Accordingly, the burden of proof is now on "keep" voters to demonstrate that sufficient SIGCOV exists so as to satisfy WP:GNG. Absent that, then the article should be deleted or redirected. Cbl62 (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nice rescue work. Striking my delete/redirect vote. Cbl62 (talk) 20:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to List of Wellington representative cricketers. As I've said above, I can't find much more than passing references or not very notable things about him yet. They might show up - Papers Past is lovely like that. But there's an obvious ATD here, redirects are cheap and the search term is more than plausible. Blue Square Thing (talk) 23:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm tending more towards a weak keep now. There are hundreds of newspaper articles which deal with him beyond scorecards. We know, for example, that he was the most promising colt in the Wellington region, one of the best young all-rounders, that he was stronger batting with his wrists than his feet, that he was a member of the Wellington committee and so on. And there are thousands of articles to check through - far more than we'll be able to manage within the timeframe of an AfD. We can build a better article from those.

That together with the fact that a New Zealander who played a few matches in the 20s got a Wisden obituary - a short one - means that there's something going on here beyond basic database entries - in fact, whatever you want to say about Hollings, this is NOT a subject that is "just a database entry". You don't get a Wisden obituary without being notable and I'm sure there's more going on here. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something out there about this chap. Blue Square Thing (talk) 07:28, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for searching. Can you link the newspaper articles containing significant coverage, and the Wisden obituary, so we can assess them? BilledMammal (talk) 07:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One I found just now: That - sterling young batsman, A. M. Hollings, came to light with another century for Wellington University team on Saturday, hitting up 108 by most refreshing cricket, in which lie ran the gamut of every stroke in the calendar (states “ Burwood ” in the Dominion) It was a tragedy that this fine all-round player unaccountably lost his form when the trial matches were held to pick the team for England last season. No doubt nervousness had a good deal to do with it. His day will come, however, ana that right speedily. Already this season he has two centuries to his credit, and he should be good for scores in the Plunket Shield and even national games before the season is over. So he was in the running for the New Zealand tour of England in '27. That's more than a little notable. The link is here. Again, ny itself it's not an in-depth article, but when you put it with everything else it feels like there's something here. The Wisden obit is short, as I say, but it's more the fact that he got one at all. A search of "A. M. Hollings" is quite helpful as the snippet view is easier to figure out if it's worth clicking on each article. Blue Square Thing (talk) 07:47, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a long bit here as well - and this is just what we're able to find. I get the feeling there's way more out there. Blue Square Thing (talk) 07:52, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And he got involved with the local rules of the game as well: this suggestion and this response, for example. Blue Square Thing (talk) 07:55, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A little more. Article's being worked on just now by someone - there are links that can be added in. I think I'm moving towards a solid keep rather than a weak one now., and that's without having access to the book on Wellington cricket from the 70s. Blue Square Thing (talk) 09:37, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or redirect: Just a database entry. Lacks sigcov. Ficaia (talk) 05:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep per Blue Square Thing, or worst case, redirect to List of Wellington representative cricketers per WP:ATD, etc. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep Personally I think there's just enough for a GNG pass on this one although it is close. We have a couple of NZ cricket editors so they may be able to dig out some more. If it's deemed not enough for a GNG pass, there's a suitable redirect as others have suggested. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:02, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I wonder if the nominator has contacted User:Sammyrice prior to this AfD, as someone who provides exceedingly good coverage of NZ cricketers, as has been suggested for New Zealand cricketers at previous AfD's? Keep per BST too. StickyWicket (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Updated article I have just added a lot more information. Hopefully it will help. Missing at the moment is his legal career as most of that information is in the period between 1950 and 1980 which is only obtainable in local libraries. Hollings headed a fairly prominant Wellington law firm if my recollection is correct. His military career looks unspectacular so don't think there is anything there.NealeWellington (talk) 11:04, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I've continued to add - and there's a shed load more to come as I've not even got to him being close to being picked for NZ yet. I'm tending more towards strong keep now. Blue Square Thing (talk) 19:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Withdraw per WP:HEY; thank you NealeWellington. StickyWicket, I will contact Sammyrice in the future for New Zealand cricketers. BilledMammal (talk) 23:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.