Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Twilight Chill
[edit]Appeal declined. Nine days later, the only thing that is clear is that there's no "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" to overturn the sanction. T. Canens (talk) 06:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC) |
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Twilight Chill[edit]In the light of the request's result and the sanction, imposed on me, I would like to clarify my editing at Caucasian Albania (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), which became the page in question. On January 31 a single-purpose account of Gorzaim (talk · contribs) added without discussion a lengthy controversial section titled "Caucasian Albania and Azerbaijani historical revisionism", an obvious violation of WP:NPOV. Although I indicated that problem in the edit summary when reverting, the contested section has been repeatedly restored with groundless edit summaries, particularly by another single-purpose account, Vandorenfm. Aside from WP:ICANTHEARYOU, I believe that such actions fall under provocation as described in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Provocation (particularly, given the wording used in the aforementioned contested section, added by Gorzaim). As per WP:EW, "reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring". I consider WP:NPOV, which is one of WP's three core content policies, to be among those overriding policies. Within that ramification and given that there was no 3RR violation from my side (which could be verified through Caucasian Albania page history), I believe that the sanction I was subjected to could be lifted or modified. Twilightchill t 00:45, 4 February 2011 (UTC) Statement by Sandstein[edit]TwilightChill (previously editing as Brandmeister (talk · contribs)) argues that because the content he edit-warred to remove, [2], violated WP:NPOV, his repeated removal of it was not edit-warring. I disagree. Insufficient neutrality is not among the limited exceptions, WP:EW#3RR exemptions, to the rule prohibiting edit warring. This is because reasonable people can disagree about what is neutral and what is not. Therefore, edit-warring is not an acceptable mode of resolving disputes about neutrality. This is particularly so in the instant case. While the content at issue may well be non-neutral (I know nothing about the subject matter and can't evaluate that), it is not non-neutral on its face, as would be a text in the vein of "All [Armenis/Azerbaijanis] are liars and manipulate history to suit their nefarious purposes." This makes it even less appropriate to resolve a dispute about its inclusion by edit-warring rather than by way of discussion, especially in a topic area and by a user subject to discretionary sanctions. I therefore recommend that this appeal be declined. Sandstein 07:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Grandmaster[edit]I agree that Twilight Chill was absolutely right by removing an extremely POV section, and by removing it Twilight Chill was trying to protect the integrity of Wikipedia as a reliable source of information. It should be noted that the sources that are used as references for the removed section contain plenty of info about Armenian revisionism, but the fact that the section is titled "Azerbaijani revisionism" and it has nothing about Armenian revisionist authors shows how biased the removed info was. I see no point in adding to the article information that has no direct relation to the ancient state of Albania, and especially when it is done in such biased and prejudiced manner, when only info attacking one country is picked, and negative info about the other is suppressed. In general, wikipedia is not a place for WP:ATTACK articles and sections in the articles, so I think that Twilight Chill was right by removing irrelevant info, and personally I don't find any sanctions to be appropriate here. Grandmaster 09:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Twilight Chill[edit]Why don't administrators just be honest and admit that because of these Armenia-Azerbaijan remedies and enforcements, EVERY editor who regularly edits articles that fall under its sanctions will eventually be topic banned. Are these Armenia-Azerbaijan remedies and enforcements in any measurable way increasing the quality of the articles? If they are not, be rid of them. Have the actually become a self-defeating parody, a weapon in an endless POV war, used by one "side" to eliminate (for months, or years, or even for ever) editors seen as belonging to the other "side"? If that is all they are, be rid of them. Scribblescribblescribble (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Fedayee[edit]I think it is very ironic that Grandmaster of all people talks about the preservation of the integrity of Wikipedia when he has run a mailing list which was in clear opposition of that integrity. Also note that Grandmaster had recenlty no contribution other than jumping right in there to revert to Brandmeister's version, reverting someone on Duduk on the generally recognized position that the Duduk was originally an Armenian instrument and filing another CU. Regarding the given section that he has removed (effectively meatpuppeting for a user who was topic banned for one year), there is little if any POV in that section besides maybe its title. What is reported there is a generally accepted fact including by pro-Azeri authors such as De Waal. - Fedayee (talk) 06:00, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Twilight Chill[edit]
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Night w
[edit]No action at this time. EdJohnston (talk) 16:01, 15 February 2011 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Night w[edit]
Not applicable - WP:1RR is not really possible to warn about...
This also may be useful here - this is a discussion during which I believe Night w is attempting to defend his or her actions (not entirely sure though). As an uninvolved user, I felt it right to report this here. I'm not sure whether Night w was in the right or not here, but I felt that the issue should at least be looked at.
Discussion concerning Night w[edit]Statement by Night w[edit]
The page in question is one that is primarily edited by only two editors, myself and one Alinor (talk · contribs). Unfortunately, we rarely see eye-to-eye, and my actions on this page have been regrettable on numerous occasions in the past. Regarding the recent actions in question:
I admit to violating 1RR, and I'll accept whatever consequences arises from that. Having said that, with only two other users involved in editing that page, I'm at a loss trying to keep that article stable, and the situation called for reverting to a stable version, and for discussion to take place on the talk page. Nightw 06:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Night w[edit]
Result concerning Night w[edit]
Alinor and Night w are the two main contributors to Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority, with 270 edits each. They both seem to be well-intentioned, but their constant warring is why they are here. Since this is a contentious article which falls under I/P, I recommend that both of them be topic banned from the article for one month, while they can still contribute on the talk page. Before this closes, if they can make a credible proposal for how to work together in the future, this action might be avoided. For example, an RFC, an agreement to always talk before reverting, an agreement on how to format references, etc. I suggest we allow 24 hours for this miracle to occur, and then decide. EdJohnston (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Since Night w and Alinor seem to have moderated their tone, and may be willing to compromise, I am closing with no action. Admins may keep Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority on their watch list to be sure the problem does not recur. EdJohnston (talk) 15:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC) |
Grandmaster
[edit]No personal sanctions against Grandmaster. Caucasian Albania is now under article-level sanctions, which addresses the problem. EdJohnston (talk) 16:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Grandmaster[edit]
The case concerns User:Grandmaster, who was recently banned from editing Russian wiki for 6 months, with subsequent topic ban for another 6 months when the first ban expires this year. Admins of Russian wiki identified User:Grandmaster as a mastermind behind a virtual organization in which he coordinated actions of a dozen of Azerbaijani editors to edit multiple articles in Azerbaijani/Armenian topic area [13]. There is some evidence that User:Grandmaster may similarly be part of such virtual organization in English wiki. Here User:Quantum666 posted a message to Grandmaster under "Shusha/Shushi" seeking his involvement [14]. User:Quantum666 was part of the Russian wiki cabal that Grandmaster allegedly managed, and was indefinitely banned by Russian admins [15]. User:Twilight Chill, also known as User: Brandmeister was User:Grandmaster’s yet another alleged partner in the cabal in Russian wiki, and was banned for such involvement [16]. User:Grandmaster replaced User:Twilight Chill in edit warring and removal of an entire chapter in the article Caucasian Albania when User:Twilight Chill got topic-banned in English wiki for one year for such unexplained reverts. Grandmaster’s decision to support User:Twilight Chill’s actions in Caucasian Albania may represent additional evidence that both are part of such organization in English wiki as well. User: Twilight Chill aka Brandmeister has been banned from editing any topics related to Armenia/Azerbaijan in Russian wiki [17]. User:Twilight Chill’s and, hence indirectly, Grandmaster’s actions, were censured by the sysop/admin User:John Vandenberg who wrote to User: Twilight Chill: “Twilight Chill, wrt your NPOV concerns, edit warring and removal of entire sections isn't appropriate. Historical revisionism is relevant to Caucasian Albania” [18]. In violation of AA2#Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppeteers [19], Grandmaster posted baseless accusations of sockpuppetry [20], disregarding the fact that several times such connection has already been declined by sockpuppetry investigations [21], [22], [23]. In the past Grandmaster was subjected to the following restrictions regarding reverts:
Discussion concerning Grandmaster[edit]Statement by Grandmaster[edit]I don't really understand what I'm being accused of here. Whatever happened in the Russian wiki has nothing to do with en:wiki, it is a completely different project. Plus, I'm not banned there anymore, and back to normal editing. I can name editors who are permanently banned in other wikis, but edit here, and vice versa, and don't remember anyone ever being punished in en:wiki for misconduct in other wikis. As for 1 year revert limitation in en:wiki 4 years ago, it was imposed on all active editors in AA articles at the time, I never violated it, and it is long over for everyone. I have no history of blocks, bans, etc in en:wiki since 2007, that is for many years. I don't find my reverting to be excessive, especially comparing with 4 rvs in Caucasian Albania by the editor who filed this complaint and countless rvs by other accounts who supported him. For instance, the account of Oliveriki (talk · contribs), whose only contribution is 3 rvs in AA covered articles. And it is really strange that I'm accused of reverting extreme POV edits by the banned user Rjbronn. Also note that I was one of the main contributors to Caucasian Albania article for many years, which is obvious by look at talk and history of the article. Of course, I have that article in my watch list and follow what's going on there from time to time. I don't find this to be a good faith report. I see no diffs of any controversial edits by me, or mass edit warring across multiple articles, or anything of the kind that would require some drastic measures against me, especially blocking, as Vandorenfm requests. Of course, it is up to the admins to decide, I always abode by their decisions. Grandmaster 22:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning <Grandmaster>[edit]
Result concerning Grandmaster[edit]
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NPz1
[edit]No action here. Editor has been indef blocked as a sock, per WP:Sockpuppet investigations/MUCHERS22. EdJohnston (talk) 16:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC) |
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Disregard. Blocked and tagged already.Cptnono (talk) 06:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
NPz1 is currently blocked but an obvious sock, User:JackhammerSwirl, made a similar edit and breeched 1/rr. No checkuser shoud be needed per DUCK: Similar reverts (no one else has presented this and the wording is exact): Similar interest in Iran (not in topic area as a whole but provided as proof of socking):
Socking and 1/rr violation in the Palestine-Israel topic area
1/rr breech and socking.
Indefinite topic ban
Discussion[edit]Result[edit] |
Ryoung122
[edit]Not an actionable request. |
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Request concerning Ryoung122[edit]
Announces potential source material for longevity lists and bios
Not Applicable
Discussion concerning Ryoung122[edit]Statement by Ryoung122[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning Ryoung122[edit]
Result concerning Ryoung122[edit]
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Vandorenfm
[edit]Vandorenfm topic-banned one month from AA. Twilight Chill already blocked one week. EdJohnston (talk) 06:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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The continuous reverts look like an attempt to win the ongoing dispute. Seems to be a breach of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Edit warring considered harmful and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Assume good faith
Regarding Sandstein's comment below on request's reasons, I would note that because the aforementioned reverts fall under AA2 case, this board seems to be more appropriate rather than WP:ANEW, where edit-warrings are commonly reported. Given that WP:TBAN does not explicitly ban the AE requests and the AE notice that "most editors under ArbCom sanction... should be treated with the same respect as any other editor", I think this report is warranted: Vandorenfm's (as well as Gorzaim's) edits create unhealthy editorial atmoshphere in the Caucasian Albania article for a couple of days. Twilightchill t 22:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Vandorenfm[edit]Statement by Vandorenfm[edit]I do not see any reason for this request. User: Twilight Chill has been edit warring for which he was recently topic-banned for one year. In essence, he is trying here to accuse me in responding to his disruptive actions for which he got eventually banned. His removal of large portions of texts was courteously reverted with proper explanation and suggestions to cooperate. User: Twilight Chill refused to explain his actions [33], [34]. In other words, he continued his unexplained “naked” reverts, claiming with no evidence and explanation that the text he kept removing violated WP:NPOV. And, as a result of his actions User: Twilight Chill was topic-banned for a year. His hands cannot be more unclean for this request. Regarding the entire business of removing chapters from the article Caucasian Albania, the sysop/admin User:John Vandenberg wrote to User: Twilight Chill: “Twilight Chill, wrt your NPOV concerns, edit warring and removal of entire sections isn't appropriate. Historical revisionism is relevant to Caucasian Albania; maybe the section should be trimmed down a bit, but that should have been discussed on talk, noticeboards, etc., or a RFC if consensus can't be found. Removing it wasn't the right approach” [35]. By this User:John Vandenberg confirmed that:
I was simply following the admin User:John Vandenberg recommendation when I was trying to deal with “removal of entire sections,” that’s all. When User: Twilight Chill got banned for one year for edit warring, “removal of entire sections” was being done by the veteran Azerbaijani editor User: Grandmaster. User: Grandmaster is a confirmed disruptive editor in Russian Wikipedia, currently blocked for 6 months: [36]. User: Grandmaster was accused by Russian admins in being a mastermind behind a syndicate in which he coordinated actions of a dozen of Azerbaijani editors to disrupt multiple articles in Azerbaijani/Armenian topic area [37]. I appeal to the admins to deal with User: Grandmaster in English-based wiki as well, and stop him asap because he may practice the same tricks here. And one of User: Grandmaster’s accomplices in Russian wiki was the same User: Twilight Chill also known as User: Brandmeister, [38]. User: Twilight Chill has been banned from editing any topics related to Armenia/Azerbaijan in Russian wiki [39]. User: Twilight Chill’s first accusation called “revert with inappropriate edit summary” is baseless. Everyone can see that it was unclear why he removed an entire good and well sourced chapter from the article. He never explained what he was doing and why. His second accusation called “subsequent unsubstantiated revert” is a false claim. “Unsubstantiated revert” was Twilight Chill’s, not mine. I corrected an unexplained disruption. I substantiated this revert on talk pages. And it was clear that User: Twilight Chill was edit-warring since he did not explain why he was reverting, for which he eventually got topic-banned for one year. His third accusation called “further revert with the "vandalism" considerations” is unfounded. In “Types of vandalism” [40], under “Sneaky vandalism,” we read that vandalism is “reverting legitimate edits with the intent of hindering the improvement of pages.” The history of Caucasian AlbaniaI is an obscure topic by itself and, as, testified by numerous sources, people care about it because this issue is misused for political reasons in Azerbaijan. Azerbaijani authors were accused in the West and Russia of manipulating historical texts, and world readers should be aware of this phenomenon, and should know why that happens. Robert Hewsen, a historian from Rowan College and the acknowledged authority in this field, wrote in his volume Armenia: A Historical Atlas, published by Chicago University Press:
By removing this chapter without any explanation User: Twilight Chill and User: Grandmaster were both “hindering the improvement of pages” as explained in “Types of vandalism” [41]. In fact, I did not accuse anyone in vandalism directly, just hypothesized and warned that this, theoretically, can be seen as vandalism. But my courtesy remained unanswered. The forth accusation “new revert with the accusations of "disruptive editing" unfounded as well. User: Grandmaster was indeed engaged in disruptive editing, removing an entire chapter several times [42], [43]. Instead of detailing out what is wrong with the chapter and giving examples why what he says is true, User: Grandmaster explained his actions with this: “wiki articles are not a place for propaganda” [44]. This is a violation of WP civility code. I suggested twice that User: Grandmaster may modify content if he feels it is incomplete or lopsided. But User: Grandmaster was not listening. Overall, I was following/enforcing User:John Vandenberg’s assessment of the situation. User:John Vandenberg’s text is this [45]. I strongly disagree that "Vandorenfm's contribution history suggests an account created solely to make warlike partisan edits in the AA topic area." I have been unduly busy with this issue only because of disruptive behavior of banned members of Russian wiki like Grandmaster and Twilight Chill. They slow me down. I am a new user but have already create a page on Nor Varagavank. Vandorenfm (talk) 03:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC) Additional Comments No 1[edit]
Comments by others about the request concerning Vandorenfm[edit]This is just to note that, unrelated to this request but because of the continued edit-warring which it partly reflects, I have applied article-level discretionary sanctions to Caucasian Albania, as described at Talk:Caucasian Albania#Discretionary sanctions. Sandstein 21:45, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment by BorisG[edit]I find it quite extraordinary that admins consider request by a topic-banned user. This rewards and encourages violations of the topic bans. Yes admins also block the filing party but this is clearly a penalty they are prepared to pay for having the rival party topic banned for a long time. We should avoid encouraging such behaviour. - BorisG (talk) 15:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Vandorenfm[edit]
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Tentontunic
[edit]No action against individual editors, but the article is placed under additional restrictions instead. |
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Request concerning Tentontunic[edit]
Edit-warring on article covered by Digwuren sanctions under 1RR. I set up a discussion thread in the article talk page.[54]
Although Tentontunic says "The Four Deuces edits appear to be to remove content", the edits were to restore POV tags that had been removed without consensus on July 10, October 3, Dec 1 and Feb 16. In all cases there was discussion on the talk page in which I participated.[56][57][58] None of these discussions led to a consensus to remove the POV tag. There is currently a new discussion about the neutrality of the article.[59] Since the article has been nominated for deletion 5 times, has 25 archived talk page discussions, is under 1RR (and Digwuren), and has had administrators attempting to resolve disputes, it would seem that there is a dispute over neutrality. The tags have been in place since the article began, and numerous other editors have replaced them when they have been removed. TFD (talk) 15:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC) I will now look through the edit history of the article. Could you please allow me time to find the examples. TFD (talk) 16:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Below are examples of other editors restoring the POV tags during the period under discussion. I do not know if this is an exhaustive list.
TFD (talk) 19:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC) The POV tag had originally been posted by Russavia 5th August, 2009, two days after Joklolk created the article.[70] After the POV tag was removed, Paul Siebert restored it 29th January, 2010.[71] TFD (talk) 04:50, 19 February 2011 (UTC) Reply to Tentontunic - Igny was blocked 3 minutes after the 1RR violation.[72] I did not log into Wikipedia on that day. TFD (talk) 20:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Reply to Martintg - your account of my previous report to AE is incorrect. I had not "also reverted" and in fact had not edited that article for four weeks before the edit-war leading to the report. While there was edit-warring on both sides involving four editors, I only reported one editor because he was the only one who had been issued a Digwuren warning. I did not for example report User:Mamalujo, although he had made the same edits as the user I reported.[73][74][75] TFD (talk) 21:48, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Comment on Administrators' recommendations. You might considering widening this to include editors who have received sanctions for any topic area. This article attracts editors from a wide range of topic interests. Also, the article Communist terrorism might be added. It is tagged for neutrality, has been nominated for deletion 3 times, has 12 pages of archived discussions, is considered an Eastern European article, is subject to 1RR and is currently protected from editing until March 15th. TFD (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Tentontunic[edit]Statement by Tentontunic[edit]Is removing a tag which has been forcibly kept on the article since 2009 really a revert? The Four Deuces appears to have ownership issues on articles relating to communism. Having now looked at the article history it seems he has had a slow motion edit war going since at least july 2010 [77] [78][79][80][81][82] In fact all of The Four Deuces edits appear to be to remove content. Now contrast this behaviour with his actions on left wing terrorism. He removes a POV tag within hours of it being added to the article [83] This is an article he has edit warred uncited content, including BLP violations into the article. I would ask administrators to look at the Communist terrorism article history as well. Tentontunic (talk) 08:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC) I have also self reverted [84] Which makes this request moot. Tentontunic (talk) 09:15, 17 February 2011 (UTC) It appears IGNY has one less than The Four Deuces. The Four Deuces, might I ask, did you report IGNY for his breaking of the 1R on the 9th of december? Tentontunic (talk) 19:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Tentontunic[edit]Considering TFD's problems above (where he narrowly escaped sanctions), this is not an action which could remotely defuse anything at all. It looks more strongly like "I escaped, but I will make sure you don't" than anything else (a neat variety of Wikilawyering at best, and an example of the problem noted in the prior case at worst). Note also the relative size of the article in 2009 and its current size. Collect (talk) 11:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Another article to which an AE report lodged by TFD against an editor[86] resulted in an article based sanction when it was found that TFD and others had also reverted. Given TFD's apparent propensity to report only his opponents for reverting while ignoring the behaviour of his allies, indicates a certain tendentiousness in making these complaints. I've lost count of the number of AE reports TFD has submitted in the past year, but this excessive use of this board to get an upper hand in content disputes seems to indicate a certain battleground mentality. Perhaps some kind of restriction on submitting AE reports for TFD may be in order here. --Martin (talk) 21:02, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Volunteer Marek Slap discretionary sanctions on the article itself but put this warning [87] way up on top so that everyone can see it. That way they can't say they haven't been warned.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:25, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment of the idea to prohibit more than one revert
So let me get this straight... ...the current proposal is that "This complaint is dismissed without action against Tentontunic or The Four Deuces", i.e. the two people that were apparently edit warring and causing trouble on the article, but that a whole bunch of editors, many of whom have not edited the article in months, have not caused trouble at the article and have not edit warred over POV tags or anything else, are made subject to sanctions? Ok, even by usual AE/Enf standards that sets some kind of a record. AN/I is the proper place to have these kind of decisions reviewed by the community, right?Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
And I also got to ask, has anyone who's proposing these sanctions actually bothered to look at the revision history of the article in question [89]? The only people related to Digwuren case who made edits to it in the past six months or so (going back to June 2010) are Petri Krohn, Mark Nutley and The Four Deuces, and the first two of these are no longer editing the article and haven't for awhile. Aside from TFD, all the people making edits (good ones or bad ones) to that article have nothing to do with Digwuren or any other case. So how is this exactly going to help?Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:46, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Nanobear There seems to be evidence indicating that Tentontunic is a sock of User:A50000. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tentontunic. This is probably relevant to this thread. Nanobear (talk) 14:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC) Comments by AndyTheGrump (Comments below moved from the results section, Sandstein 22:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC))
Sorry, but it is. If we carry on like this, we'll end up with 'Mass killings under Communist regimes - the Wikipedia article than nobody can edit'. At what point are people going to admit that the problem isn't the editors, it is a system that actively encourages the preservation of contentious articles: if you come up with abject nonsense/synthesis articles, they get deleted, but if you come up with politically-loaded nonsense/synthesis articles, they get edit-warred, protected, and smothered in sanctions. The old hands circle like vultures, looking for anyone to make a slip so they can be dragged through AN/I or wherever, while the article itself remains in its same boobytrapped state. I'd like to suggest we start thinking about finding a process to remove such articles, not because they are 'wrong', but simply because they cannot ever be made 'right' - they are magnets for controversy, and incapable of being written in a neutral manner using the processes that Wikipedia relies on. We need to accept that there are some subjects better left to other forums, and that the endless warring over the same issues is usually a good indicator that a subject is in this category. Eventually, we'll have to admit defeat, and accept that this is a topic we can't write a sensible article about. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:55, 20 February 2011 (UTC) Result concerning Tentontunic[edit]
Proposed: That the following discretionary sanction be applied to the Mass killings article:
Also proposed: This complaint is dismissed without action against Tentontunic or The Four Deuces. AGK [•] 00:20, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
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PCPP
[edit]PCPP and Asdfg12345 are topic-banned. |
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Request concerning PCPP[edit]
I apologise for the length. Well done to the people who read this, examine the dispute, and make judgement. I give a sampling of diffs below. There are many more compiled here, on the RfC I opened against this user. I recommend whoever judges this to look into the background there and read the remarks. That background is pretty crucial to understanding the evidence here. We are talking about what are often quite complicated discussions and disputes. There are any number of ways to present what the dozens and hundreds of sources say about any given topic. And particularly on a topic like this, which has proven to be quite controversial on Wikipedia, there are multiple possible presentations. The key thing is, however, that PCPP has no interest in any other presentation than his own. And he asserts it emphatically, and does not shy away from engaging in revert wars against multiple editors to advance his view. Except for perhaps the recent case and a few other egregious edits, most of the time it is hard to put your finger on precisely why what PCPP is doing or saying is a clear violation of the rules: everyone is allowed to remove inappropriate content, or question sources, or rephrase things, or reduce things. But when he does it constantly, including revert wars, all centering around removing negative information about the Chinese Communist Party, it becomes a troubling pattern. And it is infuriating for editors who want to do serious research on the pages. Thus, PCPP is guilty of violating the central tenets of Wikipedia: he is a biased, tendentious editor who edit wars to remove or reduce information he perceives as negative about the Chinese Communist Party, and does not engage in meaningful discussion or research. Most of the diffs below fit into this rubric. Recent dispute: [93] [94] [95] Explanation: In these edits PCPP goes against an emerging consensus to simply blank information that accords with RS and is relevant to the topic in question. Why? Only he knows. Tiananmen square self-immolation page:
Persecution of Falun Gong page:
Falun Gong page:
Organ harvesting page: [105][106][107][108] -- each of these would be potentially OK, the point is that he did not really discuss properly and always much tendentious edits meant to change what sources say when it comes to something about the CCP. In the edit about the Amnesty info, when you check the ref 56 on that page, it is a different thing Amnesty says--so there was not a duplication, as he claimed. Each of these edits, isolated, would be potentially fine. The point is that they are strokes in a large picture. The point is this: the views that PCPP holds, and even his editing with them in mind, is not in and of itself something he can be prosecuted for. Theoretically, if he states his point clearly, bases it on fact and good research, and argues it elegantly, he could get away with much. The trouble is that he is aggressive and uncommunicative, he ignores long and careful discussion in favour of the quick revert. He has contributed little to the pages except frustrating the efforts of those who want to do good work.
I suggest the indef topic ban because this has already dragged on for so long, ever since PCPP began editing Wikipedia. If you look through the RfC you will note this clearly. If he is allowed off the hook this time I assume he will simply become more sophisticated and waste a lot more of other editors' time in the long run (unless they give up editing Falun Gong pages first, which is a possibility). It is clear that he is not here in good faith. Others have already come to that conclusion. He turns every discussion into a battle, immediately polarising the debate, making the editing environment simply an opposition, a battle. He is not here to work intelligently, but to fight for his point of view, and he does not stint from edit warring to promote it. If more evidence is needed to substantiate these claims, please advise me.
Comment by filing editor concerning PCPP[edit]For a long time now PCPP (talk · contribs) has been engaging in disruptive editing activity on Falun Gong related articles and any articles that include content related to Falun Gong. He does it with other articles related to the Chinese Communist Party, but Falun Gong appears to be his forte. As for evidence, his edit history is probably the best possible example: most Falun Gong-related edits are disruptive, very few of them are about adding new information, and nearly every single one of them is about degrading or simply deleting information that is unfavorable to the Chinese Communist Party. I suggest simply looking at his history. But the specific "incident" I want to highlight here happened on the List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll. See the history and discussion. The point is this: he is opposed by three editors who find it legitimate to include information about the persecution/genocide against Falun Gong in the article about alleged genocides. A judge ordered an arrest warrant against Jiang Zemin and Luo Gan, leaders of the persecution, and called it a genocide. That is in this article. There was other media, too. PCPP has already done three reverts on this page within a few hours. He has been doing this for a long, long time. Please check his edit history on this topic. His primary method is to be aggressive and edit war. When he does discuss things it is never substantial. He throws out a few sentences, sometimes irrelevant, and continues in the same vain. Meanwhile other editors (including myself) present long explanations for their thinking and changes. He ignores it all and just deletes the stuff he doesn't like. Editing the pages becomes extremely tiring. Here is a long list of his biased editing that I made a long time ago. Since then he has done much of the same. He came within a hair's breadth of being banned a couple of years ago, and has only gotten worse since then. It is my neglect that has allowed this to simmer for so long. I think it is extremely clear that this editor should no longer be involved in anything related to Falun Gong, and I believe the other editors, when they hear of this motion, will be greatly relieved that something is finally happening. I know of at least three other editors who take an interest in the Falun Gong articles that, from what I can tell, are fed up with PCPP's disruptive behaviour. Falun Gong is one of the articles on probation. PCPP is a longtime disruptive editor who has now just done three reverts against the consensus (two explicit, one implicit) of three other editors for including reliably sourced information. He should simply be banned indefinitely from the pages, and I don't think anyone who edits the articles will disagree.
(I take the liberty to simply collect these from different places and present them here, but I hope others take a look and weigh in directly.)
I urge someone to look into the matter and make the appropriate judgement. I will alert PCPP now. --Asdfg12345 20:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning PCPP[edit]Statement by PCPP[edit]Sigh, I consider this a bad faith attempt by Asdfg to rid of me. He was previously given a 6 month topic ban on the Falun Gong articles by AR on the evidence of numerous editors[121], in which Sandstein found him to be a [122] "single purpose account dedicated to editing articles related to Falun Gong so as to make that movement appear in a more favorable light, and that he has repeatedly participated in edit wars to that" and is "more committed to promoting Falun Gong than to our encyclopedic mission, which makes his contributions detrimental to that mission." Clearly, his editing patterns still reflect that. The edit war on the List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll article was again instigated by his problematic editing. The ordeal of Falun Gong in China is a contested topic, and Asdfg inserted controversial material classifying the repression of FLG as "genocide", a term not agreed by any serious sources on the topic such as scholar David Ownby, and human rights organizations such as Amnesty International. The source he used comes from a local court decision in Argentina and Falun Gong's own website, which fails RS. I noted these on the talk page, but Asdfg joined in by issuing personal attacks against me during a talk page discussion with another editor [123]. He referred to me as a "disruptive troll that does not care about the encyclopedia or any objective standard of research" and that I'm "here to push CCP propaganda and that's it."--PCPP (talk) 21:37, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning PCPP[edit]Personally I find all this very unsavory. But I am involved, so I should probably speak up. In my various interactions with PCPP, I have tried to hold my tongue and avoid accusations of bad faith. This is not because I have the slightest regard for this individual, though, or for his intentions. I have encountered this editor on several articles related to either Communist Party history or Falun Gong, and have found him to be exclusively concerned with massaging the image of the Communist Party and maligning Falun Gong, in spite of any facts that may stand in the way. I cannot recall one instance in which he contributed in a productive way, let alone an objective way, to these articles. He mainly deletes content, and when challenged, he is typically unable to offer a reasonable defense for doing so. He does make numerous weak attempts to justify his edits, consuming much time; his recent reverts on List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll is a good example of how he’ll delete with one excuse, and when it is shot down, he will simply embrace another justification for deletion, and another, and another... By the end, he is arguing that Falun Gong should not be on a list of genocides because the National Endowment for Democracy is an American propaganda agency, or because David Ownby has not said it is a genocide (even though Ownby states that he is not an expert on the human rights issues related to Falun Gong, but instead on the religious and historical context surrounding it). It's exhausting. As inhumane as it may be, my problem is not with this editor’s ideological bias per se. Nor do I care that he has recently taken to accusing me of bad faith.[124] My problem is with the means he uses to advance his point of view, which include blanket and repeated reversions without discussion, editing against consensus, leveling personal attacks against editors who disagree with his aggressive behavior, misrepresenting sources, cloaking controversial edits under innocuous edit summaries, and deleting anything that does not comport with his view of the world. I can imagine that cognitive dissonance is a difficult thing to live with. It’s hard to accept that Mao Zedong is not a saint, and that innocent people are victimized by the Communist Party. But I would recommend that the best way to cope is to try accepting facts, rather than deleting them from wikipedia in a vain and annoying attempt to shape the world to accord with one’s personal beliefs. Asdfg was concerned that in filing this request for arbitration, PCPP would attempt to distract from his own behavior by drawing attention to Asdfg’s history. I was prepared to file this request in his stead, because I do not want the conversation to be derailed. I have wasted enough time unpacking the specious arguments that PCPP offers to support his indefensible position on these topics. Homunculus (duihua) 22:55, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Timeline and analysis by Asdfg[edit]There is some important information that I would like to bring to the discussion. I hope it can be evaluated in an impartial light. Consensus and discussion are fundamental to Wikipedia: even if the editors in a discussion were discovered to be wrong on a fact, or a source, or a statistic, in a post-hoc analysis, does not mean that the discussion at the time was not important or should not have been participated in. Such errors could have been corrected through the process of consensus and discussion, rather than revert warring. But in this case I think any errors have been magnified and can be easily fixed. Firstly, it is important to note that the talk page discussion was ongoing, and that there appeared to be a consensus between three editors that the content should be there. The talk page discussion was not belated. Secondly, it was said that I made personal attacks: (go away, troll), and also that I added content that was not a reliable source because I cited Clearwisdom and a blog (by Ethan Gutmann, an expert on the matter). On the first, I am wrong. The best I can point out is that PCPP does the same, and that the atmosphere he has created is already poisoned. But that is no excuse. I assume that I do not have to pretend he is editing in good faith, but should refrain from statements like troll, etc. I will seek clarification separately on what is permitted, but I have had worse things said of me (see my userpage, with no consequences—and nor should there have been consequences.) Is it the case that editors should not be allowed to share their views about the character of another editor? On the second, PCPP cited the quality of these sources (in no great depth) to delete the entire row, rather than offer a solution about the sources. We sought discussion on the talk page and were reaching a consensus, but he reverted repeatedly. I added in information that may not have had a reliable source, and we may not have come up with one: but that does not justify repeatedly deleting an entire row of content. Please note that "personal attacks" seem now part and parcel of editing these pages with PCPP. Regarding Homunculus saying that Chinese officials had been found “guilty” rather than “indicted”: that’s clearly a technical mistake and a good faith edit. If that had been discussed, those words simply could have been changed rather than the whole line deleted. It seems to cheapen the discussion to pick him up on what was clearly a good faith mistake that can be corrected by the change of a word. But ultimately, please simply note this timeline of events. I think this best demonstrates what happened.
The rest is history, the talk page discussion can be seen here: [138] -- clearly it was not belated, at least on the part of other editors. But one could say it was belated on the part of PCPP, because only after he had reverted three times did he begin trying to talk in a normal manner about the inclusion of the material. The question of reliable sources was discussed on the talk page. The best solution the editors who were actually talking about it suggested was to simply cite Falun Dafa Information Center, or something. We didn’t come up with something better for the moment. Wikipedia is a work in progress. That’s not wrong. But where there are problems, or imperfect sources, I would hope that interested editors can discuss and work together in a good-faith manner to arrive at solution. Deleting all content when one source or one word is off creates a needlessly hostile editing environment. The complaint about Gutmann as a source is also a separate matter: it doesn’t seem to make sense for an outside admin in a post-hoc analysis to determine that a source is not reliable and then read that decision into the proceedings. Gutmann as not reliable was not properly thrashed out on the talk page. It is, at the very least, something that can be discussed. But in the end he is an established expert who has conducted years of research on the topic and has been invited to Congressional panels to share his research. The information I cited was the transcript of a testimony he had given, as an expert, on the topic. It was republished on his blog. PCPP gave no substantive reason for disputing the Gutmann as a reliable source; he charged only that Gutmann’s relationship with the National Endowment for Democracy disqualified him. I hope the above helps to put things into perspective.--Asdfg12345 15:38, 19 February 2011 (UTC) Analysis by Sandstein[edit]I'll be taking a look at this if I have time over the next few days. This space is for my notes about the contested conduct.
Comment by BorisG[edit]From a brief look at the diffs provided, there appears to be a pattern of tendentious editing by PPCP (talk · contribs). Like in so many ideological and ethnic disputes, no party is without fault. However, to me, it seems that PPSP is less willing to seek and respect consensus and compromise than Asdfg12345 (talk · contribs) or Homunculus (talk · contribs).
Comment by Enric Naval[edit]Wow, not a bad solution. Asdfg has been needing a perma-ban from Falun Gong for a long time, and PCPP might finally learn to be less aggressive. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC) Comment by The Resident Anthropologist (talk)[edit]Having observed both individuals in action neither is a benefit to the topic area. A Sandstien has observed PCPP is overly aggressive in editing style as to include a negative portrayal of FLG. Asdfg12345 has the same issue but with the opposite POV.
Ohconfucius, makes a good point about below "I have also seen and experienced enough concert parties, aggression and lawyering at FLG articles to drive me away from editing that topic for good." This is our enemy here those who show "aggression and lawyering at FLG articles" tend to drive others away the topic. Behavior that causes people to be driven away from "editing that topic for good." are what we are dealing with here. Looking over old talk page discussions this seems to be the the issue. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:48, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Enric Naval and Resident Anthropologist. Asdfg does not have sufficiently clean hands in this topic area to be granted enforcement against others with no blame coming on to him/herself. It does seem that PCPP is also in need of a topic ban. In short I recommend a round of topic ban's for everyone involved. (I briefly attempted to mediate Falun Gong related articles ca. 2 years ago - I left because of the enormous amount of civil pov-pushing from the pro-Falun Gong side then (among them asdfg)- most anti-Falun Gong editors were banned in that period)·Maunus·ƛ· 21:57, 19 February 2011 (UTC) Comment by Ohconfucius[edit]Falun Gong articles have been a hot and disputed area, polarised by the omnipresence of Falun Gong activists (mainly) and their opponents editing this series of articles in a more or less SPA-fashion. Following the Arbcom case, after Samuel Luo and Tomananga got themselves indeffed for socking, the FLG SPAs have been in ascendancy. I and a number of others got involved for several months, but the path is strewn with carcasses. Today, all that is left to buttress the relentless advocacy of the FLG cabal is PCPP. I advised him not long ago to abandon the FLG articles, and he appears to not to have taken up my advice. The reason I suspect he remains there is not that he enjoys the conflict, but that he feels deeply that there ought to be some counterbalance to the FLG cabal. I was able to collaborate sufficiently with asdfg to help build 'Self-immolation', but it only truly achieved FA status through the efforts of respected editors SilkTork (talk · contribs) and Jayen466 (talk · contribs), who helped put the WP:NPOV issues into sharp focus. A quick glance of the article in its current state – as has already been observed by Sandstein – indicates that the strong pro-FLG bias has once again been restored. That alone says enough. PCPP is not at all easy to work with, and the FLG editors a little less so – but there are more of them. Their very strong and persistent advocacy of their cause amounts almost to conflict of interest editing. PCPP is over-reliant on the revert button, whilst the FLG cabal relies much more on saliva and lawyering. In addition, since his topic ban, asdfg is visibly much more bitter at the way WP works vis a vis the FLG viewpoint. Just looking at the edit history to 'List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll', it seems that there may have been tag teaming against PCPP's revert button. This is a case of six-of-one and half-a-dozen-of-another. They need a big dose of something stronger than a trout. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 10:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Reply to Biophys: Here is the edit removed by PCPP which you call: a "relevant text sourced to Reuters":
The Reuters article does not claim that 3,000 were killed, but that Falun Gong makes that claim. Furthermore, the notes are entirely sourced to the Falun Gong website. TFD (talk) 19:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC) Comment by Zujine[edit]I hope my comments do not come too belatedly, but I see others continue to weigh in on this matter, so I will add my piece. I was not involved in the edit war at List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll, but I have read through the diffs and the timeline provided by Asdfg, and am not surprised at PCPP’s behaviour. The patterns of editing he displayed on that article — to delete large amounts of content without discussion, and to do so repeatedly against consensus — is consistent with what I have observed elsewhere. I would favour a lengthy, if not indefinite topic ban against PCPP. As to Asdfg, there is little doubt that he has an emotional investment in the subjects he edits (namely Falungong), and while this usually finds manifestation in very active editing and discussion, it can turn to incivility when it comes to PCPP. I have also been extremely frustrated by PCPP, though I express it quite differently, so I can emphathise with Asdfg on this point. Crucially, when PCPP is not around, I have found Asdfg to be easy enough to work with. I do not always agree with his edits, nor he with mine, but we are nonetheless able to hash things out and move forward on editing pages. If he is not banned, I hope that he will learn from this experience and be more circumspect in the future. If he is banned, the editing environment on Falungong articles might be more relaxed, but I would also count it as a loss, as Asdfg does bring in good quality research and is probably more intimately familiar with the relevant sources on Falungong than any other editor. —Zujine|talk 18:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC) Result concerning PCPP[edit]
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Passionless
[edit]Unblocked by blocking admin. T. Canens (talk) 22:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Passionless[edit]At the time of my 'breaching edits' the WP:AE which put the sanctions on me was stated that my sanctions were "a three-month topic ban from Refaat Al-Gammal, with a concurrent six-month 1RR/week restriction in the entire area of conflict." I followed these rules, yet I get blocked for writing my ITN. And look at User:Shrike too, no one told him talk pages were off limits too, but when he was told so he went and reverted his edits. The sanctions are fine and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but the blocks on both me and Shrike are a case of assuming bad faith.
Statement by AGK[edit]During the initial Arbitration Enforcement thread, there was an edit conflict between T. Canens and I. We both actioned the request at almost the same time—he first, me a moment later—but I got to the case log of sanctions first, and then notified both users first. Once I'd informed both users that they were sanctioned, I then noticed that T. Canens had already done so (having not had an edit conflict notice because of MediaWiki's edit conflict auto-resolver) and suggested that we replace my sanctions with his. Nothing further came of the discussion, because we kept missing one another when we were next online over the next day or so, and so the discretionary sanctions stood. It is understandable but not excusable that Passionless saw the discussion here about modifying the sanctions and thought that my sanctions were no longer in place or were being challenged. But I wonder why he thought that he could still make the edit he did, when T. Canens' proposed sanctions superseded mine in that they were less lenient. I cannot help but feel that Passionless' edit was a last-ditch attempt to squeeze in a last few edits before my sanctions were replaced by T. Canens', but that is of course speculation. What I can say without speculation, however, is that the sanctions, whilst under discussion, had not been lifted or modified and were very much in place. On that basis, I would recommend that this appeal be declined. I would be willing to lift my block early on the basis that there was an understandable misunderstanding, and I am of course happy for my block to be reversed by a consensus of uninvolved administrators. For whatever it would be worth, I would request that, in either case, the block be lifted only if Passionless accepts that the topic ban still applies, and that, if he is found in violation of it again, he will be again blocked. On a slightly different note, I see that Sandstein is proposing that it be lifted as redundant because my topic-ban is being superseded by T. Canens'. I reject that thinking and think to lift a block in such a way would be rather odd and somewhat pedantic: what is happening here is that my signature on the topic ban is being replaced with T. Canens', as a courtesy to the fact that he got there first and that it was my fault for not noticing that there was an edit conflict, and that some additional sanctions (a 1RR, a per-article topic ban, etc.) are being placed separately by T. Canens. Tl;dr: The new sanctions are a modification of my previous ones, and do not nullify all enforcement made under my sanctions when they were in effect (as seems to be assumed below). Likewise, as a matter of principe, we should not waive the enforcement of a legitimate discretionary sanction on the basis that the sanctioned editor wrongly believed that his sanctions had invisibly been lifted. Any reasonable person would at least have asked for clarification, if the obvious reality was not clear from simply reading the discussion, instead of creating a brand new I/P article. No? Respectfully, AGK [•] 11:55, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)[edit]Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Passionless[edit]It appears that the sequence of events is thus: (1) Passionless is made subject to a wide topic ban [149], (2) he violates this ban possibly because he believes that the ban had been reduced in scope, (3), he is blocked in enforcement of the ban [150], (4) only then is the ban actually reduced in scope [151]. On this basis, it would appear logical to lift the enforcement block, because the topic ban it is intended to enforce no longer applies – based on the principle that blocks are preventative and not punitive. For these reasons I think that the block, while certainly correct at the time it was issued, is no longer necessary and should be lifted. Sandstein 10:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Passionless[edit]
Note: Moved from [152]. T. Canens (talk) 02:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
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Fifelfoo
[edit]Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Summarily declined because no diff of the required warning about discretionary sanctions is provided. Warning now issued. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Fifelfoo[edit]
{{{Diffs of prior warnings}}}
If this is the incorrect notice board for this please remove the complaint and let me know were one does complain about this form of behavior. Tentontunic (talk) 13:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC) Fifeloo now appears to be looking for support for his actions from other editors who share his POV. [156] [157] Tentontunic (talk) 13:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
In response to Fifelfoo`s four points.
One final thing, Massacre at Huế Dak Son Massacre To say I did not look in the archives is another bad faith assumption, neither of these issues have been brought up on the article talk page before now. Tentontunic (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC) Discussion concerning Fifelfoo[edit]Statement by Fifelfoo[edit]
Comments by others about the request concerning Fifelfoo[edit]I would suggest that Fifelfoo be strongly cautioned as to language. In particular, the use of accusing others of "not hearing" when the same complaint might be easily laid at Fifelfoo's feet. It is always amusing to see a "defense" make clear the problem. Meanwhile, the source is WP:RS under WP policy - the issues on the article talk page are strongly reminiscent of some other pages where only "right" information is allowed, and "wrong" information is disallowed. WP readers are expected to be able to examine the references, not to have "correctness" determined by any group of editors. Collect (talk) 13:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC) I am in an ambiguous situation: from one hand, I have been informed by Fifelfoo about this case, and, as a result, I ought to abstain from participation in this discussion, however, from the another hand, I am watchlisting some key pages that make me aware of these type events even despite the Fifelfoo's post. Therefore, I decided to express my opinion.
Fifelfoo could write:
Whereas the first version is a comment on a contributor, the second one is a comment of a contribution, which is absolutely in accordance with WP policy. However, everyone will agree that the main idea (a correct idea, btw) is preserved in the last version. Therefore, if Tentontunic wants Fifelfoo to formally meet WP behavioural criteria, this result can be easily achieved by slight re-wording of the Fifelfoo's posts (the step I would strongly recommend to do in any events). However, if Tentontunic is interested in a genuine collaboration, they will never achieve this goal by posting here. What I would recommend to Tentontunic is to make a short break, and during this break to read the archives of the Mass killings under Communist regimes talk page (I concede the archives are very long, and I am ready to explain how to find a relevant section). I agree with Fifeloo that not all sources that adhere to WP:RS are equal. Peer reveiwed articles and books are preferred to non-refereed sources, especially on matters requiring complex research. However even if he is 100% correct on the sources issue, that does not negate the need to AGF and adhere to Wikipedia civility policies, the policies that he dares to violate on this very page. He needs to describe comments and edits, rather than editors. BorisG (talk) 16:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC) Result concerning Fifelfoo[edit]
Discretionary sanctions require a prior warning about the possibility of discretionary sanctions ({{uw-sanctions}} or equivalent). Because no diff of such a warning is provided in the enforcement request, it is summarily declined without examination on the merits. The editors involved should use normal means of dispute resolution. However, in reaction to the personal attacks in evidence here, I am issuing a formal arbitration enforcement warning to Fifelfoo myself. Sandstein 16:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC) |