Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes
[edit]No action taken, see admin discussion below. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 01:09, 15 August 2016 (UTC) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes have a history of tag-teaming in edit wars. Lately they have been doing this in articles relating to American politics. Then on August 2, My very best wishes, who had hitherto never shown any interest in the article, appears out of nowhere to revert on behalf of Volunteer Marek [7] [8]. Same thing at Clinton Foundation on 8-9 July: Mvbw steps in to revert on behalf of VM over a POV tag [9][10]. They're tag teaming over other information as well: [11][12]. Same thing at Donald Trump on July 4: VM adds some text [13], and after it is removed, Mvbw shows up a few hours later to re-add it, even though he has never edited the article before [14]. This appears to be a clear-cut example of WP:GAME so as to circumvent the 1RR restrictions in this particular article.
I had previously made a case request at WP:ARBCOM regarding tag teaming in eastern Europe related articles, but since that area is already under discretionary sanctions, I was told to file at WP:AE instead. There's a long history of tag-teaming, and it is not limited to WP:EE or WP:ARBAPDS. Beginning mid-2014 (and possibly earlier), Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes appear to be helping each other out in edit-wars by tag-teaming. VM is the more active of the two, and the tag-teaming typically has the form of VM getting involved in an edit-war in an article that Mvbw has not previously edited. Once the edit-war is under way, Mvbw appears out of nowhere and reverts on VM’s behalf. In a minority of instances, it is VM that steps into an edit-war that Mvbw is involved. Since mid-2014, the tag teaming has occurred over a large number of articles (at least 40 in 2015 alone, although there are possibly more), some of which are quite obscure (e.g. Philip M. Breedlove, Khan al-Assal chemical attack, The Harvest of Sorrow). Initially the tag-teaming was restricted to Eastern Europe-related articles, particularly the Ukraine crisis, but as of 2015 it has spread to non-EE articles (example), hence I'm inclined to believe that it's not merely mutual interests that guides them. Furthermore, though both these editors have edited for a long time, they edited few articles in common in the period 2012-mid 2014, with the number of articles they edit in common skyrocketing after that. It should be noted that VM edits a far larger variety of articles than Mvbw does; however, most of the articles Mvbw chooses to edit after mid-2014 appear to be articles VM edits, especially of those he is facing contention (i.e. the April contributions of Mvbw and VM are noticeably similar). The disruption this has caused is considerable. One example below:
As a result of this MfD discussion, the previous page has now been moved to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive197/EtienneDolet_evidence. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
@Lord Roem: I just want to clarify that Mvbw did not state that "Putin doesn't fall under the BLP policy"...he said Putin "does not deserve a decent BLP page." Two very different things. He then pushes the notion that Putin is a fascist and similar to Adolf Hitler using that very same article ([24][25]) from that very same comment. It's not a joke, and it's quite serious. As for the timing of this report, it is largely in response of the recent tag-teaming that spread to other topic areas such as AP of which I find concerning. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:39, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Volunteer Marek[edit]
ED's "evidence"
@User:Lord Roem Re [37]. Thank you, exactly. Why is EtienneDolet trying to get me sanctioned for another user's behavior? Especially when even that behavior (MVBW's) isn't sanctionable/disruptive itself? My edits are not disruptive, they haven't broken any policies, they all aim to improve the encyclopedia. Why am I even here??? And yes, EtienneDolet has now tried to get me sanctioned on every single drama board available, from AN/I to 3RR to ArbCom to, now, here. And ALL of these request so far have ended the same way. They were rejected and on several occasions ED has been told to cut it out.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:42, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
@Athenean. Re: "No firm consensus, but the majority of users seem to think that some of this material (especially the booing off the stage) belongs in the article. Certainly no consensus to keep the material out. " - this is a BLP and according to the discretionary sanctions of American politics topic, any challenged material that does not have "firm consensus" stays out. So "no consensus to keep material out" is not sufficient to put it in.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Oh yeah, User:Lord Roem, please note that some of the users are listing consecutive edits I made separately to make it look like I made more reverts than I actually did. Alternatively, they get fast and loose with the timing, like Athenean when he claims "In a 40 hour period between July 30th and August 1st" - actually it was between July 30th and August 2nd and not a 40 hour period but something like 60 hour period, and not four reverts but three - and all of them based on implementing BLP policy. Maybe this is just sloppy math, or maybe it's stretching the truth to make it look like something it's not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:36, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
And btw, it is extremely disingenuous, dishonest even, for you to ask me to "shorten my statement" but then follow that up with a bunch of unsupported evidence-free accusations and demands that I explain myself. You want shorter statement? Stop making BS accusations.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:36, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Re: EtienneDolet's newest attacks. EtienneDolet's is only showing that he's obsessively pursuing a grudge, forum shopping, and is incapable of WP:DROPTHESTICK. User:Drmies was pinged in large part because he was making administrative decisions on Vladimir Putin article, which this report tries to dig out of the the ground and present as new. Hell, he gave me a block at that time. I don't see how he can be said to be playing favorites. EtienneDolet is just upset that in this case Drmies dismissed his accusations as the ridiculous attacks they are. This is classic WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on ED's part. MelanieN was pinged because she is the administrator most active on articles related to the current presidential election and knows more about the context and atmosphere there. Again, EtienneDolet is just throwing out smears because he's unhappy that this administrator too spoke favorably of me. EtienneDolet is also dishonestly characterizing both my edits and MVBW. He's basically complaining that reliable sources - academic and scholarly publications - don't say what he wants them to say and gosh, darn it, the fact that some editors wish to consider these source is just so unfair! Those professors and experts who wrote those reliable sources should've written exactly what EtienneDolet wants them to have written! But I guess since he can't file AE reports against respected academics who've written scholarly articles, he just has to settle for smearing MVBW. By pretending that MVBW discussing scholarly sources on talk is equivalent to saying "Putin is Hitler". This is outright, shameless lying by ED. Same for the other diff. But here's the thing. None of this matters. This is from six months ago. And during those six months, EtienneDolet has LITERALLY (this isn't hyperbole) brought these diffs to multiple venues. From AN/I, to 3RR, to ArbCom itself. This is what a WP:BATTLEGROUND warrior does. Take a couple diffs. Portray them in a false light to make it look sinister even when it's not. And then go around ALL the drama boards over and over again crying "Please ban these guys! See how bad they are! They won't let me push my POV in peace!". Until you find some naive or cynical or simple minded admin who'll fall for this tactic. In my 10+ years on Wikipedia I've seen this done multiple times but never with a level of shamelessness, dishonesty and obsessiveness that ED displays. It has been suggested multiple times by other editors - when ED brought this to other drama boards - that ED should really stop trying to settle disputes by abusing AN/I or other noticeboards. In absence of doing so voluntarily, they need a explicit restriction on their block-shopping behavior. He creates WP:BATTLEGROUNDs in multiple areas with this behavior, and he refuses to discuss issues in good faith on talk because he thinks that he can get his way and "win" instead by having those who disagree with him banned. That's what's going on too. This is tendentious and yes, it is WP:HARASSMENT. It short circuits the consensus building process - why discuss and compromise when you can go running to some admin and beg them for a block? Since he insist on piling this on, since he can't let go of grudges from six months ago (which have been reviewed multiple times by administrators already), since he is likely to repeat this behavior in the future (this very report is evidence of that), this needs to WP:BOOMERANG on him and he needs to be restricted from drama boards indefinitely. Maybe that will allow him to learn how to discuss, cooperate, compromise and build consensus rather than block shopping admins for a block at the sign of the slightest disagreement. If not, since Wikipedia is a collaborative project, maybe this isn't a good place for them. Plenty of internet forums out there where he can pick all the fights he wants.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC) (and to bring India-Pakistan-Bangladesh topics into this is just more evidence of bad faith. Funky bamboo, I was one of the few editors who actually was willing to stop into that nationalist battleground and try and clean it up a bit. I guess that's the flutin' thanks. Anyway, in that topic area, like these two others, there wasn't a single damn thing wrong with my edits and ED really needs to stop lying by trying to make it look bad.)Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC) I'm getting really sick and tired of these smears. ED claims he "withdrew" one of the AN/I request against me. And that this wasn't "forum shopping". Well, it was. And he "withdrew it" precisely because he was warned about forum shopping. I mean his own diff shows it [38], if you just read the comment right above his. And yes, I did call ED an "asshole" once. On my talk page. Because ED was trying to WP:OUT me although he was being cute about it, in a way which would allow him deniability (did I mention this user has engaged in long term WP:HARASSMENT and WP:STALKING?) This is also old news, this is also something he's brought up all over the place and this is also something that's been considered. He's also not clear on what "block-shopping" involves. Reporting disruptive users is NOT block-shopping - that's what I did in the requests ED provides and most of these were validated with blocks. "Block shopping" is when you go to one admin to get a user blocked, that admin says "no, no block", so you got another venue/admin and ask for a block again for the same thing, then another and so on until you get that one naive admin gullible enough to fall for your nonsense. *That* is what ED is doing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:24, 11 August 2016 (UTC) EtienneDolet, you can make all the bullshit excuses you want, but at the end of the day, you know, and I know, that you were throwing my name around simply to intimidate and harass. You can WIKILAWYER the definition of "outing" all you want, but the truth of the matter is still that you were behaving despicably. That's probably why NO admin or arbitrator actually thought my response to you was problematic enough to warrant a sanction. Oh yeah, and you fail to mention that I made that comment after I had told you to stay off my talk page, but you insisted on coming back and making provocative remarks. Then you followed it up with taunting. And hey. Buddy. You're forum shopping again. At some point that credit card is going to get maxed out and the bills will come due. @Athenean - "Because there is simply no way for him to disprove it" Well, no shit there's no way I can disprove it. The whole report is formulated, purposefully and in bad faith - in a way which makes it impossible to disprove anything. What am I suppose to disprove? That I am not coordinating or tag-teaming with MVBW? How am I suppose to do that? You can't prove a negative (at least not this one). I mean, if there was some mind reading machine or something, I guess you could come over to my house, plug me in and read my mind. But there ain't. That's the whole point here! The accusation is so bogus precisely because you can't defend against it. How about you and EtienneDolet "disprove" that you two are coordinating? Prove to us that you two are not frequent off-wiki correspondence. Prove that you don't follow EtienneDolet's edits around and tag team with him. Come on, "disprove" it! Or alternatively, you can stop being ridiculous. Throwing accusations at people is cheap and easy. And that's all you got here. And if you don't want me to write more in this report then it's simple. Stop. Making. More. And. More. Baseless. Accusations. I get it, you expect me to take these dishonest attacks and smearing of my reputation laying down. You're annoyed that your bullying and harassment is running into brick walls. Like, for example, that half a dozen administrators here, and a bunch of other users, who say that there is nothing sanctionable on my part. So you're doubling down, throwing even more shit at me. And then you have the temerity to whine and complain that I respond? Disgusting. And you really really have some fucking gall to accuse ME of "character assassination". I genuinely hope that you are ashamed of yourself. And anyone can go through and check my diffs. Yes, the ArbCom rejected the case with several arbs saying it lacked merit. Yes, EtienneDolet DOES keep bringing up same stuff to various noticeboards - hell, he himself accidentally provided a diff where he is being chided by an administrator for that exact thing. So I'm not the one who's lying here. Athenean re [39], there's SEVEN editors (including admins) commenting in the general section here who are telling you that the accusations you are making in that diff are baseless and unwarranted. There are TWO admins commenting in the "for uninvolved admins" section who are also telling you the same thing (one against). So the reason you're not getting your way here is NOT my "filibuster, spinning, distorting, and character assassination" but rather the fact that your accusations have no merit. But, just like on article talk pages, you have a WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT problem and for some reason you seem to think that the best way forward is to double down on your accusations and just throw more of them at me. Honestly, really, that kind of approach to editing Wikipedia is gonna come back and bite you in the ass sooner or later.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 11 August 2016 (UTC) Since we're bringing up old stuff HERE IS EVIDENCE, from just one discussion, of how EtienneDolet approaches editing Wikipedia. It shows clear disregard for Wikipedia policies, a nasty WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, dishonesty, manipulation, obscurantism, tendentiousness and... very problematic POV. It also shows that Athenean and EtienneDolet "tag-team" (or at least, that's what it looks like judging them by their own standard). This is just one discussion but it is fairly representative of Etienne's behavior and honestly, if it wasn't outdated, there's enough in it to warrant an indef ban until ED promises to actually abide by Wikipedia policies. (work in progress) Oh freakin' a, can we just close this. D.Creish, if you disagree with some of my edits, the article talk page is over that way -->. I'll be happy to discuss them. I am already discussing them. WP:AE is not a place to pursue grudges, but it is also not a place to try and recruit editors to your POV by bringing standard content disputes here. Enough.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:15, 14 August 2016 (UTC) And that para that you complain about *was* indeed based on a blog and a non reliable source. Two actually. The rest of the material did indeed have a couple reliable sources but their inclusion made no sense once you remove the non-reliably sourced part, mostly because the reliable sources were being used to cite unimportant details, while it was the non-reliable sources that were sourcing the fringe claims made. Anyway, really, this is stuff for the article talk page.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:18, 14 August 2016 (UTC) D.Creish, I did not say youo held a grudge. I was referring to this report in general, and its originator in particular. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Anyway, the general point - that the issues you're bring up here, don't belong here but rather on the respective article pages. This isn't a place to hash out content issues.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:57, 14 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishes[edit]The complaint suppose to be about my alleged and recent misbehavior in two subject areas, but I do not see it.
No, I was never involved in any inappropriate activities with VM. I do not have any contacts off-wiki with any WP participants for many years; I never edited on anyone's behalf, and I never asked anyone to edit on my behalf. Yes, I sometimes checked edits by VM, just as edits by many other contributors. This is not forbidden by policy. But I never followed someone's edits only to blindly revert or support them. I agreed or disagreed about something with others and discussed. Obviously, I had a lot less objections to editing by VM, who is smart, well-intended and a highly experienced contributor, than to editing by POV-pushing SPAs. Agreeing or disagreeing with someone is not a violation of policy. To the contrary, this is a productive collaboration. Here is long list of alleged misdeeds created by ED. This is a misrepresentation by ED. He simply calls all legitimate edits "edit-war", even such as reverting edits by sockpuppets [41]. Other edits were also legitimate and reflect WP:Consensus and discussions on article talk pages. Actually, this is very common when a number of long-term contributors make similar edits on the same pages (yes, there were many other contributors on these pages, not only VM and myself, who were making the same changes). Why all of them are making more or less similar edits? That's because they are trying to reflect what reliable sources tell, and the sources tell something very definite on the subject. And how do I know about Polandball and other "obscure" subjects? Because they are not obscure to me. @Coffee and Wordsmith. This my edit was made almost six months ago, and this is not a BLP violation. Neither this is a suggestion to violate policy. This is just a joke on a user talk page. Yes, I believe that BLP rules must be respected. P.S. This request is unusual. What normally happens? There should be a serious content disagreement about something. Yes, we had a content disagreement with EtienneDolet and Athenean about page Vladimir Putin, but it was almost six months ago! Why they are binging this back citing an essay as a reason for sanctions? I did not edit page about Putin for a long time because of the previous complaints by these users. Athenean brings this diff as an evidence against me dated February. What's the problem? There are literally hundreds publications on this subject. (Here is one of them as a random example. I do not insist this should be included, but discussing something reliably published on the subject is legitimate.
Statement by EvergreenFir[edit]Sorry about the rollback. Finger slipped on phone. Corrected my mistake. Again my apologies. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:04, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi[edit]Just to point out that surely WP:EE does not offer the sanction (or, indeed, any sanction!) requested...? 21:21, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by The Wordsmith[edit]I edit in the American Politics area, so I'm recused from commenting as an uninvolved administrator. However as an editor, those diffs are troubling. Particularly the one where MVBW indicates that we should willingly break WP:BLP because he thinks that a world leader is unworthy of having a compliant article, just because he doesn't like Putin. After that one, I don't think MVBW is capable of editing in compliance with policy. My suggestion would be for a 'topic ban for MVBW for Eastern Europe and post-1932 American Politics, and a 0RR restriction for Volunteer Marek for American Politics. The WordsmithTalk to me 21:19, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris[edit]It's no secret that Marek and MVBW have similar views and thus makes edits from a similar perspective -- just as EtienneDolet has similar views as another group of editors and makes edits similar to their perspective. Are both of these groups tag teams? I don't think so. The whole idea of "tag teams" is problematic enough that a highly respected editor and two-term Arbcom member nominated Wikipedia:Tag team for deletion. She is more articulate and concise than a science geek like me, so I'm going to quote her: "Many editors have identified that the 'characteristics' of tag teams can easily be applied to editors who share a common practice of editing in accordance with policy and thus make similar edits." In the real world there are people who have similar views on certain topics and thus tend to make similar edits (and yes, revert similar material). That's true whether the topic is Vladimir Putin or global warming or anything else on Wikipedia that parallels a real-world dispute. I'm a little more concerned about the BLP implications of MVBW's Putin comment. However, it is worth reading that entire thread in context. I'm also somewhat concerned with EtienneDolet's repeated attempts to get VolunteerMarek sanctioned for something (whatever seems to fit at the moment). But that's just par for the course in this topic area, unfortunately. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:03, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Athenean[edit]
Statement by Lizzius[edit]Having reviewed the diffs provided in evidence, and the ones provided in the statements of many users here, there is no meat in this case (Athenean, your numerous linked diffs showing a "protracted edit war" cover weeks of edits to multiple articles and to my eyes absolutely no evidence of repeated content removal or what I believe WP policy would define as edit warring). The "compelling" evidence here shows nothing more than an overlap in editing interests. No more or less severe than many editors (and admins) across this site with similar watchlists/interests/access to the news. Unless there is hard evidence of collusion between these two (apart from the fact that they both inhabit Earth, probably have access to Western media and thus tend to follow a similar sense of Zeitgeist when it comes to their individual interests, and happen to have a political ideology that departs from the sense of the filing editor) this should be chalked up to nothing more than partisan bickering. Throw on top of that the history with the filing party here (and a curious opinion from an "involved" administrator, followed by another administrator who could seemingly be cast into the same collusion bucket if the definition is allowed to be cast so broadly), and you have one curious set of circumstances here that absolutely shouldn't result in any sort of sanction against MVBW or VM. Further reply to Athenean, the diff you highlighted as further evidence that this is just the proverbial tip of the iceberg is indeed listed in ED's evidence page. It also seems the Arbitrators' opinion on dismissing the case were mixed, with some expressing they felt the case essentially reduced to overlapping interests. It isn't fair to consider VM's characterization of their opinion purposefully malicious, anymore than yours might also be considered so. Also (and this was first linked by another editor in the filing you referenced), if you run an interaction analyzer on you and ED it is comparable ([100]) to the analysis performed on MVBW and VM. Surely this could compel you to see how easy it is for editors with similar interests and world views to end up editing very similar articles? Have you found any truly compelling evidence that would demonstrate actual, coordinated collusion? Lizzius (talk) 13:56, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Roxy the dog[edit]It's called a Watchlist. -Roxy the dog™ bark 14:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by OID[edit]I would like to echo Boris here, ED has been trying to get VM sanctioned for something for quite awhile now. Given this has already been brought up and rejected by Arbcom, and there is no additional considerations here, some form of forum-shopping warning needs to be given. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:31, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by D.Creish[edit]I encountered Volunteer Marek and MVBW on Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. My interaction with MVBW was limited to his reverts and some talk page comments (more on that later) - most of my interaction was with VM. I see a pattern of disingenuousness from VM, stretching the truth or outright misstating things to help his argument. I'll give examples:
My interaction with MVBW was more limited. He was involved in a discussion about whether to include Wasserman-Schultz being booed off stage at the DNC in her article. The incident was covered in all major sources and led to to her not gaveling-in the convention (a first in DNC history.) A well-known political reporter described it as "one of the most painful moments I have ever witnessed." Seems pretty significant right? VM didn't think so and one he reached three reverts neither did MVBW. MVBW's talk page comments were generic, they could have been cut and pasted (changing the subject) from almost any BLP dispute: [103] [104]. He dismisses the incident as a "minor detail". When I attempt to understand his reasoning, asking if it's the boo-ing or the gaveling he considers minor I get no response. These incidents were (I believe) my first and only interaction with these editors. D.Creish (talk) 06:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Softlavender[edit]Not being a Putin fan I've been pretty much indifferent to (if not supportive of) the obvious tag-teaming these two editors engage in and have engaged in for a long time. But when it spreads beyond the subject of Putin, Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, and spreads to dozens and dozens of articles, and articles and subjects which Myverybestwishes has never edited in or shown the slightest interest in, then in my opinion something definitely has to be done to stop it. I'd like to address myself specifically to Lord Roem: Having been nearly absent for so long on Wikipedia (indeed, in the six years since you've been here you've made less than 8,500 edits), you've not been subject to, or privy to, the frequent drama that surrounds these two editors. I believe the community is tired of it and that it needs to stop. Turning a blind eye and/or saying that VM can't help it if MVBW follows him around isn't going to solve or resolve the situation. If it isn't somehow resolved here, I think it's going to end up back at ArbCom, and I don't think it needs to. Softlavender (talk) 09:18, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Doc9871[edit]I said from the beginning of my interactions with Volunteer Marek that he should have been topic-banned from this area for having a hopelessly biased, highly aggressive pattern of enforcing opinions over encyclopedic material. Volunteer Marek loses all credibility with this edit.[105] Removing cited material and using the edit summary to say what he said? The next edit is no better.[106] This is not encyclopedic behavior, folks! Wake the hell up! Really just terrible "editing". Doc talk 09:46, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by MelanieN[edit]I was pinged to this discussion by VM, I guess as a kind of character witness. So I should be considered as an involved admin, or better as just another editor. I am not familiar with the articles under discussion here (Vladimir Putin and Debbie Wasserman Schultz) so I cannot speak to the specific allegations regarding those articles. But I have observed and worked with both VM and MVBW over the past few months at several Donald Trump related articles. I have not observed, and cannot now find, any evidence of collusion or coordination between them at those pages. I have never had to caution either of them for their editing. Both of them use the talk page a lot - more than actual edits to the articles - and their contributions at the talk pages are constructive. That's all I have to say, except to note the allegations of forum shopping on the part of the OP; that would concern me if I were evaluating this case. --MelanieN (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Neutrality[edit]I'll keep this brief: I agree with the sentiments expressed by MelanieN and Drmies here. Editing in areas of overlapping interests, using the article watchlist, or checking users' contribs do not constitute evidence of improper collusion or meatpuppetry. This is a collaborative enterprise. As a general rule (though not an invariable one), when multiple editors jump in to revert the same BLP-implicating content in good faith, the natural assumption (a rebuttable presumption, so to speak) is that the material is contentious and bears discussion—not that there is some impropriety going on. I'll also call users' attention to the fact that Wikipedia:Tag team is an essay, not a policy or guideline, and the footnote to that essay states: "as there is no consensus regarding the merits of this essay in namespace. Editors have voiced a concern that the "characteristics" of tag teams can easily be applied to editors who share a common practice of editing in accordance with policy, and that the essay can be used as a weapon against editors who are acting in accordance with Wikipedia's editing policies to cast aspersions..." Neutralitytalk 16:51, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Iryna Harpy[edit]I've been watching this and, while I've thought it best to bite my tongue, the latest comparison comments and diffs by ED regarding genocide articles has prompted me to comment on how badly wiki tools can be misused in order to evaluate the contributions by long time editors who work on articles constantly. While I don't have any personal problems in working with ED (or Athenean for that matter), I do feel inclined to think there is GRUDGE involved. While ED's belief that there's tag-teaming at play here is undoubtedly good faith, he has the wrong end of the stick as to how MVBW became involved with genocide topics (aside from his work on "Holodomor"): it was through me that his interest was piqued. Please see this discussion on the "Genocides in history" talk page here. It was in early April - correlating with MVBW's foray into the 1971 Bangladesh genocide and other specific articles. I've worked collaboratively with VM and MVBW for years, but that does not make editors who have the intestinal fortitude to edit controversial and heavy traffic articles component parts of various tag teams. Interest and mix 'n match editing is how our watchlists and contributions grow. Trying to make mud stick by rummaging around without comparing edits against an increase in all activity on any given article at any point in time is an easy way around of finding Moby Dick in the Bible and getting rid of the competition. As has already been noted by others, the tools you've used to create comparisons could be easily used against you and Athenean (or any number of editors) to 'prove' you're a tag team. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Kingsindian[edit](I have had very little contact with VM, a bit more with MvBW. I have argued with the latter on a few pages; they have a tendency to revert a bit too much, but are also very willing to discuss on the talkpage. One particular page The Harvest of Sorrow was mentioned by ED in their remarks.) Can we separate out the two things? Volunteer Marek has stated that he does not collude with MvBW off-wiki and MvBW has denied collusion as well. Absent evidence to the contrary, this part should be the default finding. Furthermore, VM has stated that they do not follow MvBW's contributions (and there has been no evidence to the contrary). MvBW does follow VM's contributions: this is self-admitted and fairly common (I do it myself sometimes). I share ED's annoyance at this kind of reverting by multiple people. It is fairly common in contentious areas, where views are very polarized - so there are really two camps - and thus reverts by people with a certain viewpoint seem like getting around WP:1RR restrictions. How to fix it? The overall solution is simple: the participants should follow WP:BRD (not a policy, but a good practice) - discuss on the talkpage after the first edit-and-revert. In particular, MvBW should refrain from reverting the third time, as documented in ED's evidence. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:09, 11 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICO[edit]It's very disappointing to see that the resident Admins here would keep this complaint open for so long when there's been no evidence to document the alleged violation for which they are authorized to sanction. It's far too common that a battleground editor or group with a grudge (acronym "gag") use AE to pursue other editors. Too often the Admins here seem unable to recognize this for what it is and to shut down these nasty threads. It undermines community respect for the process. This needs to be closed toot sweet. SPECIFICO talk 13:41, 12 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield[edit]So here we are yet again: VM, unwashed since 2009, as usual professing to have the cleanest hands on Wikipedia ever, and his ardent follower MVBW with his strange routine of retiring and then unretiring and then retiring and then unretiring and then retiring and then unretiring. I find it strange that what for other editors would be condemned as activities promoting edit warring is for these two editors always dismissed as just a case of editors having "similar views" and watchlists. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:00, 14 August 2016 (UTC) Result concerning Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes[edit]
@Volunteer Marek: and @My very best wishes: Please mind the word limit of 500 words per statement and trim down or hat longer sections as appropriate. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:15, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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AmirSurfLera
[edit]AmirSurfLera blocked six months for a repeat topic ban violation. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:12, 15 August 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning AmirSurfLera[edit]
Immediately on returning to editing after their latest, three-month, block for "multiple topic ban violations", this editor edited a BLP clearly marked as covered by ARBPIA sanctions, to reinsert repeatedly removed trivia based, according to their own edit, on "rumours and hearsay". This is both a defiance of the topic ban, and an egregious breach of BLP policy.
Discussion concerning AmirSurfLera[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AmirSurfLera[edit]What's the relation between Netanyahu's IQ and the Arab-Israeli conflict?--AmirSurfLera (talk) 16:01, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Joseph[edit]Meh. Is this really how AE will operate? We don't need to be so petty and it's usually the same core group of posters who submit these "gotcha" style AE actions. RolandR's MO just seems to be reverting and reporting. For something as simple as this a simple message on the talk page should have sufficed. Statement by Kingsindian[edit]There was clear topic ban breach, but one could make an argument that WP:ARBPIA notices are sometimes overly broad. It would be a bit silly to indef block for such a borderline case, imho. If one wants to "punish" AmirSurfLera, a month block would be enough. The edit was atrocious, by the way. A clickbait and dubious source used to assert that Netanyahu had an IQ of 180. It should fail WP:BLP at the very least. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:34, 13 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning AmirSurfLera[edit]
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JGabbard
[edit]JGabbard (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, for six months. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 23:42, 27 August 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning JGabbard[edit]
One more recent diff to show aspersions, conspiracy theories about other editors, unwillingness to collaborate [114]. 23 August 2016.
Diff of notification [115]
Discussion concerning JGabbard[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by JGabbard[edit]I am not a politically-oriented person, as my editing history will attest [116]. It is rare for me to take interest in editing any articles on politics or current events, and when I do I seek to remain on the periphery of the fray when such exists. Consequently, I do my work quietly and seldom collaborate with other editors. That being said, is it not odd that such intense scrutiny and meticulous negative attention would be shown by a group of editors to an article which they allege to be "non-notable" and even wish to have deleted? What might one infer from the systematic deletion of so many well-referenced facts (as documented here [117])? I feel that my at times cheeky response to such bizarre editing activity is not beyond the pale, nor difficult to understand. I have no personal vendetta against any individual editor at all, only seek to criticize their argumentative modus operandi as a group. My fellow editors (the majority) are likewise perplexed by the brick wall they have collectively erected. We feel that this article should be allowed to be develop naturally, without interference from those who wish for it to disappear, either in part or entirely. A somewhat objectionable comment to one such user who accosted me on my talk page has been redacted, with apologies. - JGabbard (talk) 23:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC) Inappropriate behavior at the article and talk page led the editor to behave inappropriately. I'd encourage admins to review the DRN request (particularly the comments from others) which give a largely accurate picture of the issue. Whether it's best to address the fundamental issue which resulted in poor behavior, the poor behavior, or both, I can't say. I will say JGabbard seems to be passionate about this issue as do several other participants in the dispute but given the limited scope and the minimal likelihood of further developments, resolving the current DRN request will most likely end disruption. D.Creish (talk) 21:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by The Four Deuces[edit]There has been a lot of controversy over the Murder of Seth Rich article, and is the only article where JGabbard's comments are cited in this complaint. It was unsuccessfully nominated for deletion, large amounts of sourced material have been removed, JGabbard has begun a discussion at DRN and the article is locked from editing. I believe that we should see if the current process in content dispute resolution works before issuing sanctions. TFD (talk) 00:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by (SPECIFICO)[edit]JGabbard launched the DRN content discussion thread with an unusually harsh, scattershot, and demonstrably false stream of misrepresentations and personal attacks. If any of it had been true, the proper venue would have been ANI or AE. This suggests, in addition to disruptive editing, that JGabbard is not competent to understand basic WP policy and conflict resolution. JGabbard should be banned from BLPs and American Politics. It's that bad, and it's clear that there's little hope this behavior will change. The diffs already cited are sufficient, but if Admins here want more, there are many more, and perhaps some editors are willing to supply them upon request. SPECIFICO talk 01:45, 24 August 2016 (UTC) See also [118]. A long block is warranted. SPECIFICO talk 03:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Mr Ernie[edit]The DS notice posted to JGabbards talk page was for American Politics but what user:Mastcell posted on the article talk page was for BLP. Which DS applies to this case? Both sides in this dispute are passionate and emotional, but I believe the good faith collaborative approach can work here and we can close this with a warning. Mr Ernie (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Steve Quinn[edit]A. I think this diff has already been supplied [119] - here JGabbard attributes nefarious motives to other editors in his comment. But also notice removal of a newly opened section in the talk page and edit history comments as well [120]. B. User SPECIFICO was never engaged in any kind of edit warring, as was either implied or stated. C. JGabbard's descriptions of the editing taking place, including talk page editing, appear to be inaccurate. D. I cannot fathom why JGabbard unilaterally went to DRN, as the talk page discussion was unfolding as talk page discussions normally do. Nobody has been casting aspersions at one another (except for JGabbard I suppose). For my part, I ignored this person because his comments did not make sense and they were few. One comment sounded like a call for editors to band together and protest [121] - but we are all on a talk page and we wouldn't be able to see each other carrying signs and banners, nor is there a street where we can congregate. But seriously, in retrospect, I have to say that all the talk page editors involved have been very respectful of one another while focusing on disagreements pertaining to content. Please, don't mind me saying so, but this is surprising, because I have been involved in and witnessed other heated discussions where casting aspersions did happen and always seem likely to happen in heated discussions - and this is a political page. So, hopefully the good luck continues for all of us. So, again there was no need to unilaterally rush over to DRN - everything is going well. A bunch of us happen to disagree is all - and there is nothing wrong with that. So, of course I disagree with the statement that there has been inappropriate behavior during talk page discussions. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:44, 24 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by PinkAmpersand[edit]I was the editor who gave the DS alert on the 18th. I did that after observing JGabbard's conduct in the Seth Rich AFD. Other editors have already covered the NPA portion of all this, but I'd like to draw the admins' attention to the substantial BLP issues with some of JGabbard's comments there. Wikipedia has no (explicit) rule against idly conspiracy-theorizing, but it is an entirely different matter if aspersions are being cast against living people. I refer the admins' attention to JGabbard's initial !vote at the AFD, in which he accuses two living public figures of conspiracy to commit murder. (See also subsequent tweak After being notified that his comments were in violation of BLP, JGabbard made a number of changes to his comments, but still kept the accusations in his comment, removing the subjects' names but still explicitly identifying them. He acknowledged that this was a conscious decision. I subsequently struck the accusations and left a note explaining my rationale and encouraging JGabbard to change course. This one incident alone may not be sanctionable, but it remains quite concerning. And regardless of any sanctions, I would encourage the adminstrators to delete all of the revisions in which the accusations appeared. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 03:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Robert McClenon[edit]
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning JGabbard[edit]
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D.Creish
[edit]D.Creish (talk · contribs) is warned against edit warring. No other action taken. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 04:13, 30 August 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning D.Creish[edit]
Edit warring and "crying BLP" on Jared Taylor. Repeated removing sourced material that has been present and relatively unaltered for over one year (compare diff from 15 July 2015 until 24 August 2016 regarding material in second paragraph of lead [122]). Repeated claims of BLP violation where none exist and insistence on gaining consensus, despite clearly editing against long-standing consensus (WP:STATUSQUO). User has reverted edits by Volunteer Marek and myself. All diff below related to this:
None.
Should mention I chose to come here instead of AN3 because of (1) the political nature of the article and its contents, (2) extended discussion of DS on the user's talk page earlier today related to another matter (User_talk:D.Creish#Note_on_DS), (3) participation in past AE filings related to the ARBAPDS, and (4) threats by user to file AE against Volunteer Marek ([123]). BLP DS also apply here, but APDS seem more directly related. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:10, 26 August 2016 (UTC) User also promised to continue removing the content: [124]. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:13, 26 August 2016 (UTC) @Rhoark: The issues is the user was gaming by claiming BLP. The wordpress source needed to go (and did). The NYTimes piece didn't support it well, so it was replaced. The other sources supported the statement well though, so there was no reason to remove the entire thing. Moreover, the user kept removing content despite replacing lower quality sources with better ones. They wanted the statement gone, not to improve it so they claimed BLP and edit warred over it. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:49, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning D.Creish[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by D.Creish[edit]This is the text I removed inititally and in subsequent reversions:
The sources cited were (3) as follows:
When the filer refers to content that was "relatively unaltered for over one year" and WP:STATUSQUO these are the sources it was based upon, which I find (as I assume most will) insufficient. To keep this short: my intent was to remove the content until suitable sourcing could be found. To that end I began a dialogue on the talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jared_Taylor#BLP_violations_in_lede Rather than participating in that dialogue both editors reverted my removal, at times providing additional sources - none of which I've examined so far support the initial text. I was under the impression that to claim someone "promotes racist ideologies" required strong sourcing and that, if it was not present, additional sourcing and dialogue must precede restoration. If that is not the case, I apologize unequivocally; if it is, I'm owed an apology but I'll settle for a critical discussion of sources and claims on the article's talk page. D.Creish (talk) 06:35, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I feel like I've stirred a hornets' nest. I expected editors to observe a higher degree of civility in articles under Discretionary Sanctions but I'm finding just the opposite. D.Creish (talk) 08:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not going to clutter this section with a tit-for-tat - I want to make position clear and then I likely won't respond except to address direct questions: It is not that I believe Taylor is not a racist or does not (in my personal view) promote racist ideologies. But review the sources here, especially the high-quality ones - they all use precise language to describe his views. I want our article, especially the lede, to mirror that precise language. The existing sources did not support the reverted phrasing; despite this, several editors insisted on restoring the phrasing and sourcing when even a cursory examination would have shown one of the sources was a non-existent page and another didn't directly address the claim. Rather than participate in a search for improved sources, tangential sources were added scattershot and in questioning their relevance I was met with reversions rather than discussion. That's a violation of the process and intent of the BLP policy as I understand it. D.Creish (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC) Question from Nomoskedasticity[edit]Is this sort of thing intended under the DS system? It looks an awful lot like silly games to me, given the context of the report under discussion here. (Just to be clear: What I'm asking about is the fact that D.Creish placed a DS notice on my talk-page, even though I've never done a single edit to the article in question here.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:56, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek[edit]D.Creish has made six (!) reverts in less than 24 hrs. So there's that. There's no BLP grounds for edit warring here either, as others have pointed out simply because this is actually what the subject is known for. It's sort of like trying to remove the fact that David Duke is a former KKK Grand Wizard from that article on BLP grounds. Which is also why the info is actually well sourced. Now, I can see objecting to the mediamouse source, but there were two other, reliable sources (NY Times and SPLC, which is NOT "primary") there. And indeed, I removed the mediamouse source myself [125] and added additional reliable sources [126] [127]. That didn't stop D.Creish who continued to edit war, reverting other editors another four times. And yes, this content has been in the article a long time, it's been discussed on the talk page (though D.Creish did not bother participating in any of the discussions), etc. etc. As Evergreen and others point out, in addition to WP:TENDENTIOUS edit warring, this also appears to be a bad-faithed attempt to WP:GAME both the BLP policy and discretionary sanctions.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC) For reference, Jared Taylor is associated with or in charge of the New Century Foundation, a white supremacist group, National Policy Institute a "white nationalist" (whatever that is) "think tank", the The Occidental Quarterly a "a far-right racially obsessed US Magazine", and American Renaissance (magazine) a a white supremacist publication. So yeah, saying that some sources have said that this guy is associated with racist organizations and publications is NOT a BLP violation by any stretch. Again, it's pretty much THE reason he is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC) Btw, this has been a recurring problem, mostly from anonymous IPs and drive by editors, for many years now.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC) @Kingsindian. First, this isn't about "calling someone a racist" (although that can easily be sourced too). The actual text is that he is associated with organizations which promote racism. And for that the NY Times and the SPLC were fine, unless you really are trying to misread what the sources say. Also, this is a summary of the article present in lede. The actual sourcing needs to be in the body of the article itself. Which it is. Anyway, I don't know if this is sufficient for a topic ban (from American Politics, or Race & Intelligence, because this article probably falls under both?). A "probation" for sure though.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:39, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by MrX[edit]Reverts like this one with an edit summary "Sources included do not describe Taylor as supporting racist ideologies. Removed on good-faith BLP ground." are indeed WP:CRYBLP and WP:GAMING. Sources, including the SPLC, plainly verify the disputed sentence "Taylor, and many of the organizations he is associated with, are often described as promoting racist ideologies by, among others, civil rights groups, news media and academics studying racism in the US." The New York Times says "Jared Taylor, editor of American Renaissance, based in Louisville, who argues that blacks and other minorities are, because of genetics, less intelligent than whites and that non-whites are bent on destroying America culturally and politically.". The SPLC elaborates, for example saying "Founded by Jared Taylor in 1990, the New Century Foundation is a self-styled think tank that promotes pseudo-scientific studies and research that purport to show the inferiority of blacks to whites.". Salon (a weaker source) just says "Taylor has ties to a variety of domestic and international racists and extremists." Three experienced editors support the content in question. D.Creish edit warred claiming WP:3RRBLP, which does not apply. I have no idea if this is a pattern of behavior from D.Creish, but in this case, it seems to be a sanctionable offense.- MrX 14:00, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark[edit]This filing is bad and everyone should feel bad. If a claim about a living person fails WP:V it's a BLP violation. One source was unreliable, NYTimes did not support the claim, and site-wide consensus about SPLC has not been reached. It should be no problem to say SPLC says this and that about him, but if there's a reasonable doubt its reliable for summarizing what third parties think about Taylor, people should try to establish that consensus rather than edit warring. On the technicalities, D.Criesh is entirely justified in reverting an unlimited number of times. On the content, though - what the fuck? In the New York Times it says he
Statement by Kingsindian[edit]I am rather puzzled by Lord Roem's comment. Let me make a simple but fundamental point. Something can be true without there being adequate verification and proof of something being true. Please read the discussion here about the issue. There were three original sources: one a wordpress blog, one an NYT source which doesn't support the reference and one the SPLC. Only the last is a half-decent source and it should not have been presented in Wikipedia's voice in the beginning. This is as straightforward a BLP violation as I can find. Calling someone a racist requires much stronger sourcing than this. I'll note that several sources in the article still don't make claims about Taylor, but rather about the alt-right, of which Taylor is a part. In fact, the Fox news source is simply quoting "critics" who say that Taylor is a racist, with Taylor denying it. There's enough sourcing about Taylor's views on race to write something correctly summarizing the situation, which will probably not be too far from the current phrasing but better phrased and sourced - this should be discussed on the talkpage and not edit-warred. I second Rhoark's point. Everyone should feel bad about their conduct here. D. Creish is playing the well-justified role of the Devil's Advocate here and whatever their motivations should be thanked for correcting a massive BLP violation. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:05, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Masem[edit]Rhoark's comments sum up the situation, but this is reflective of what I've seen a lot of late based on AN/ANI posts or the like, in topics that are left-vs-right political aspects, with knowledge that the bulk of the press is generally left-learning, that editors will readily hang lots of negative statements about a right-leaning topic because the mainstream sources seem to give that impression. WP must be much more conservative (middle of the ground, not in the political sense) and not assign judgement or give that impression. Loading up a statement like that in the lede of a BLP, while technically supported by some sources and thus meeting V and NOR and avoids an outright BLP violation, is a failure of NPOV as it establishes a specific tone that immediately makes the article read negatively about this person. The first line even of the current article "Samuel Jared Taylor (born September 15, 1951) is an American white nationalist who is the founder and editor of American Renaissance, an online magazine often described as a white supremacist publication." is a huge COATRACK if the magazine or Taylor doesn't self-state being about white supremacy (which I don't immediately see evidence of). This is becoming way too common in any politically-charged topic and thus challenging coatrack statements in BLP should be a valid action. --MASEM (t) 16:18, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Mr Ernie[edit]I don't think we should get in the habit of sanctioning good faith edits by users in good standing. This filing seems premature and references one specific issue without any history of other issues. A warning reinforcing the correct collaborative approach would suffice. I'm curious why there was no attempt to solve this first on a user talk page. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:50, 29 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Capeo[edit]Seeing this back and forth made me go check out this guys writings and his associated organizations and now I feel like I need a shower. Saying he pushes a racist ideology is putting it lightly. That said I don't think any of the editors involved at the page disagree but the sourcing was bad and it seems like it's improved a bit. It could still probably get better and rather than sanction anyone I'd think the involved parties could accomplish that. We have a bunch of decent editors that got heated. I see no benefit from blocking anybody. Capeo (talk) 23:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Steve Quinn[edit]On Talk:Murder of Seth Rich it was made clear by a group of productive editors that inclusion of Wikileaks related content is in contradiction to BLP, BDP, and AVOIDVICTIM. This was amplified by User:Mascell, an Admin [128]. I have sent a couple of emails to Lord Roem denoting with diffs, what appears to be (to me), D.Criesh's continual failure to get the point WP:IDHT. Below is information not contained in those emails: Here, I summed up repeatedly having explained BLP violations, along with other productive editors [129]. After similar statement by User:Marek, D. Creish conflates issues (already noted in the emails) and then he raises three strawman arguments [130] - the RFC, WP:DRN, and impasse have nothing to do with the points Marek and I just made. And, it is not clear to whom he is speaking (maybe thin air). Then is the circular statement about "majority" and "numbers" and appears to also not be relevant. But note, within the entire response he twice defers to support by a number of other editors Jytdog asks D. Criesh to say he understands Mastcell's announcement [131] Here D.Creish equivocates about that [132] and equivocates to me about conflating and understanding the issues (bttom of diff). After discussion about PROFRINGE, DUE WIEGHT, and NOTNEWS with another editor (see above in next diff) D. Creish firmly disputes policies against insertion of Wikileaks material [133], and is discussing how WP policies might support insinuations (which they don't). At the BLP Noticeboard [134] he claims "No one has offered a succinct, rational explanation" per BLP, of adding to the article "WikiLeaks offered a $20,000 reward for information leading to a conviction". Which at this point, appears to be both contentious and failure to get the point. Steve Quinn (talk) 03:13, 30 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning D.Creish[edit]
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75.140.253.89
[edit]User blocked 72 hours |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 75.140.253.89[edit]
The anonymous editor in question is using the talk page of the biography of Shaun King to repeat entirely-unsupported and virulently racist claims about the article subject - that he is lying about their racial heritage because they claim the subject is "phenotypically Caucasoid" (whatever that is supposed to mean.)
This editor is, quite simply, a racist conspiracy theorist, and should not be permitted to edit this person's biography. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning 75.140.253.89[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by 75.140.253.89[edit]
I have never once insinuated that Shaun King has willfully misrepresented his own racial identity. It is clear that his own very tangled family history is very confusing (as Shaun King has proclaimed in interviews), and his mother told him that his current father is not his real biological father. King has never met or even seen his father (as admitted in interviews). King, based on his own admission, cannot be sure of anything about his father without a paternity test. King cannot be certain about his heritage or racial identity, black or white, or even asian. King exhibits no physical traits typical of an African American male. King exhibits physical traits solely that of a Caucasian male. The claim is that King is an African American male, despite his outward appearance. This is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The "reliable sources" are lifestyle and fashion magazines that cite mere hearsay. This does not satisfy the need for extraordinary evidence. Comparable case: Elizabeth_Warren, who has consistently claimed to be Native American. Her case for claiming her heritage was that she and her maternal lineage have "high cheekbones...just like the Indians do". [135] [136] Like King's case, it is a murky claim not based on any genetic or genealogical investigation. Yet unlike King, her racial identity is not listed as fact on her article. I am interested in accuracy. I believe that it is better to lack a potentially true statement than to include a possibly untrue statement. Removing an extraordinary claim until better evidence surfaces is not an unreasonable request.75.140.253.89 (talk) 17:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC) In short summary, complainant tried to preemptively block a change by misusing closure and even by filing this request before the WP:CONSENSUS process could even be properly attempted. This reflects poorly both on the complainants objectivity in this request and in maintaining of the associated article. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 03:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC) This filing was probably premature. u:NorthBySouthBaranof hadn't tried simple discussion in this case. That being said, anonymous user has shown reluctance to operate within WP Policies. They are not however being overly disruptive as their activity has been limited to talk page discussion. SPACKlick (talk) 04:01, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Stevietheman[edit]I fully concur with the complainant NorthBySouthBaranof. There was enough discussion to determine that 75.140.253.89 was attempting to use a Wikipedia article and/or its talk page for maligning the subject (insinuating the subject is a liar, requiring original research to prove something that we only rely upon reliable sources to back up, and therefore that discussion should have been closed (at least). There was no reasonable continuance of such discussion. If 75.140.253.89 had conducted a discussion based in Wikipedia policies/guidelines without seeming to malign the subject, that would have been a different ball of wax. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 18:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning 75.140.253.89[edit]
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