Although I don't agree with Wikipedia vandalism the Jon Moynihan page appears to only ever have been edit by 1 person called Creagdubh, who has never edited any other pages; it is therefore not unreasonable to assume that this person is Moynihan himself; if this is the case, one should clearly examine the merits of having this page in the first place.

Also, his wife clearly has no place in Wikipedia whatsoever; a Google search on Patricia Underwood produces no results, and this would again strengthen the case that Moynihan just wanted to give her a bit of a "plug".

I would recommend the best thing to do would be to delete the entry.

Hi

I just tried Google.com and found 5 entries to Patricia Underwood at the top of page 1 - eg:

http://www.answers.com/topic/patricia-underwood

Born: Patricia Gilbert in Maidenhead, England, 11 October 1947. Education: Trained in millinery at Fashion Institute of Technology, New York, 1972. Family: Married Reginald Underwood, 1967 (divorced, 1976); married Jonathan Moynihan, 1980; children: Vivecca. Career: Clerk/typist at Buckingham Palace, 1966-67; secretary, United Artists, New York, 1968-69; manufactured hats with Lipp Holmfeld (Hats by Lipp), 1973-75; president/designer in own company Patricia Underwood, New York, 1976; launched Patricia Under-wood Knit Collection, 1983; opened in-store shop in Saks Fifth Avenue; Patricia Underwood Too line of women's ready-to-wear introduced, 1990; featured collections in Vogue, has designed for Bill Blass, Oscar de la Renta, Carolyne Roehm, Donna Karan, Calvin Klein, and others. Exhibitions:Hats, Philadelphia Museum of Art, 1993. Awards: Coty American Fashion Critics award, 1982; Council of Fashion Designers of America award, 1983, American Accessories Achievement award, 1992. Address: 242 West 36th Street, New York, NY 10018, U.S.A.

Cheers NikonF (talk) 12:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Creagdubh here

I can assure 86.137.212.175 that Creagdubh is not Jon Moynihan. And I am by no means the only editor of this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Moynihan although I did originally create it. I note that several attempts at vandalising this page have been removed, or other edits made, by experienced and authenticated Wiki users and editors such as Conquistador, EricV89, Soliloquial, and Discospinster. If they had felt that this page was inappropriate, why would they have gone to the bother of making those edits?

I understand that the only valid argument for whether or not an entry should be on Wikipedia is whether it is in the public interest or not. (Others may correct me on this but that definition seems reasonable to me.) If this entry is not in the public interest, then a very large number of biographical entries on Wikipedia should also be taken off. I don't think those entries should be, and I don't think this one should be either.

The comments on this entry do seem personally motivated. Although different identities are used, the untruths in those attacks are strangely similar whichever identity is used. For example the latest claim, that Googling 'Patricia Underwood' produces no results (in fact, it produces around 315,000 results, and the first seven of these are all about the individual in question), is repeated more than once in the editing history, most recently by 86.134.104.230 but back in June by 86.139.170.125. Both times the claim was wrong, of course, as are other claims made there. So what is going on here? True Wikipedia editing, or a personally motivated attack?

Creagdubh (talk) 12:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you could compare the direct number of references to "Patricia Underwood" (5 or 7?) to those of any notable fashion designer (e.g. Vivienne Westwood with 10 million), her "Google count" would appear to be complete out of sink: what annoyed 86-whatever would annoy me as well, namely that a reference is made to Moynihans spouse who is not a name in the industry; if you analyse the direct references to Patricia Underwood in Google, they appear to paid or free directory and professional membership entries.

My thoughts are this: Clearly this guy is a notable consultant who deserves a Wikipedia entry: the award winning hat designer nonsense devalues the entry and should be removed.

Any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.95.212 (talk) 22:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting how all the critics of this lady are unsigned...

So we're agreed that the critic coming from 86.137.212.175 has no credibility, as their claim that Patricia Underwood has no Google entries at all was either a deliberate untruth, or incompetence, or both.

Now someone coming from 86.135.95.212 says that we should assess a person's worthiness of a Wiki entry by the number of Google entries they have. What an odd way to go about widening the sum of human knowledge !

86.135.95.212 also claims: '...Moynihans spouse who is not a name in the industry...'. This is a perverse assertion which the The Modern Fashion Encyclopedia for one does not agree with: http://www.answers.com/topic/patricia-underwood

And the comment '...the award winning hat designer nonsense..' is a subjective slur about someone's chosen career which in my view has no place in Wikipedia.

Creagdubh (talk) 07:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there,

I really wouldn't read into the fact that the critics are unsigned; Creagdubh is not your real name so where is the difference. If it is agreed that Chief Executives of large corporations should be in Wikipedia then Moynihan should be here although it is debatable whether a lifelong "management consultant" should ever be in Wikipedia; Adair Turner for example, a previous McKinsey director has a Wikipedia entry but only because he went on to become Director-General of the CBI and other high profile public posts; the current Chairman of McKinsey, a company in a league well above PA Consulting, has no entry in Wikipedia and maybe should have one.

With respect to Patricia Underwood, sadly Google search results do provide a more or less accurate picture of a person's fame or infamy; a search on a nobody such as "Jade Goody" reveals 719,000 results, and the Google truth is that if somebody is really well known they have the Google search results to prove it; no buts about it.

One thing is suspicious: why is Creagdubh so adamant that the Underwood entry stays; its omission does not detract from the quality of the entry, and its inclusion does give the casual reader the impression that the article was created by Moynihan himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oliver Bonas (talk • contribs) 12:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone - welcome to my talk page !

The precedent, custom and usage for mentioning a wife in a Wikipedia biog is well established. A random look around gives these examples:

• Obama's page prominently features his wife and his kids. And his wife's page prominently features both her parents
• Stephen Green's page (chairman of HSBC) mentions his wife, daughter, sister and brother
• David Nabarro's page (UN coordinator for Avian Flu) mentions his ex partner, current wife, 3 children and his father
• Peter Sutcliffe - aka 'The Yorkshire Ripper' - has a whole paragraph about his wife !

If Oliver succeeds in getting all other mentions of wives, partners and ex-partners removed then he'll have set a new precedent for Wiki biogs.

Until then, agitating for the removal of a mention of Jon Moynihan's wife would appear to be some kind of personal vendetta against him - or maybe it's against high-achieving women in general?

NikonF (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikon, Oliver & others

This is hilarious, but maybe I can help draw a line under this.

Firstly, I have never heard of Jon Moynihan or Patricia Underwood but it needs to be accepted that Moynihan is a worthy enough to have is own Wiki entry; there are some items in the biography which are unsubstantiated (his work for the management company of The Who and his charity work in India), but, to be honest, many Chief Executives make things up when they reach the dizzy heights to make themselves a little less dull. I worked for NatWest for many years, and the Chief Executives there claimed that before going into business he was a monk for 5 years! The rock band one is another popular one, even Tony Blair did this.

Secondly, if the guy is married, then why not mention his wife? The fact that she is not up there with the Vivienne Westwoods and Oscar de la Rentas is neither here nor there; as some stage she won an award for a hat: good for her.

Hope this helps

James Iacovone —Preceding unsigned comment added by James Iacovone (talk • contribs) 20:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

...if the guy is married, then why not mention his wife? The fact that she is not up there with the Vivienne Westwoods and Oscar de la Rentas is neither here nor there; as some stage she won an award for a hat: good for her.

Here here - thanks for bringing some sanity into this James

Regards - Summilux (talk) 16:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the thumbs up, Summilux.

Just an addendum without stirring the flames: I would re-iterate my point re: Moynihan's involvement with the management company of rock band "The Who" and his charity work in India/Bangladesh: it really does sound like a Chief Executive trying to re-invent himself as a cool dude.

cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by James Iacovone (talk • contribs) 16:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see somebody else objected to "The Who" entry and rather than taking it out, added a comment on the site; not many people know this, but before taking up my post as an environmental health officer for Hammersmith & Fulham council, I was a member of Deep Purple and single handedly erased poverty in Ethopia —Preceding unsigned comment added by James Iacovone (talk • contribs) 20:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is absolutely ludicrous, and this must be a first in Wikipedia history, that the person about whom the article has been written, gets involved by willing to justify that certain entries are true. Even more ridiculous is NikonF approaching Moynihan with this in mind.

I don't believe for one moment that this CEO, in a previous life, managed a rock band and erased poverty, or that his wife is a world famous milliner, but what the heck: if it gives him a lift, leave it in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Hohenberg (talk • contribs) 20:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here, here Michael, I couldn't agree more: this is clearly a case of someone sprucing up their CV; in all likelyhood he left uni and then simply worked his way up over 30 or so years to become CEO, but as no one can verify whether he ever had anything to do with The Who (other than calling Roger Daltrey!!) or whether he was a "crusader against poverty", he is pretty secure in the knowledge he won't be found out. I can make myself invisible, by the way, and I dated Nicole Kidman, and my wife is a world famous cup cake maker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthew Springham (talk • contribs) 10:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think most people make a "common sense" assessment that the CV is too good to be true; Moynihan also doesn't mention where he went to school; the problem there is you simply can't mak it up and get away with it: so, for example, if he said he went to Eton, but didn't, loads of people would come out of the woodwork saying he never went there. But, anyway, I digress: so he went to Oxford, which presumably he finished by the age of 21, then went to a Poly (age by now: 22) then to MIT (age by now: 23); then, aged 23, he turns his back on all this heavy weight education to manage rockband The Who, followed by a fight against poverty, and the development of anti-cancer drugs. Having done all that, he spends the next 30 years climbing the greasy pole in some boring consulting firm.

True? I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam Crichton (talk • contribs) 18:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I worked for PA for some time, from before Jon joined; one of the things that quickly made the rounds was the fact that his wife was a "milliner", he was clearly keen to let people know; as far I was aware, he came from a company called First Manhattan Consulting Group, which I clearly remember him saying he founded; this turned out to be untrue, the company was founded by James McCormick. The other thing I remember that he liked to be seen arriving at the office on a kiddie's scooter, the sort of thing a young father of 3 could carry off, but not a short, childless 50 something. With respect to the Who entry etc, I would wager £100 that this is all crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MatthewCooke (talk • contribs) 11:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My money is on NikonF being Jon Moynihan; note that only a generic PA Consulting Group email address was offered by Moynihan not even his personal one; even if this guy emailed PA he'd never get a response. NikonF, how about giving us a landline telephone number so that we can verify your identify, or should I look in the phone book under Moynihan; absolute disgrace, people writing Wikipedia articles about themselves, that is not what wikipedia was intended for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Carlyle-Smith (talk • contribs) 17:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is an absolute disgrace that people are allowed to write wikipedia articles about themselves under some pseudonym. Having looked at all the comments etc, let's get a few things straight:

1) Mrs Moynihan is NOT a famous hat designer 2) Mr Moynihan is highly unlikely to have done all the things he said he's done before running PA 3) Like many CEOs of medium sized to large organisations he probably deserves a wikipedia entry. but pppppplease: keep it to who you are and what you have achieved, don't try to make yourself look like Tom Cruise; you'll just end up a laughing stock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robyn Osbourne (talk • contribs) 09:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I worked at Track Records for years before it became defunct; I would have known of a "Jon Moynihan" there, and there wasn't; ironically, I was also involved in the world of management consultancy and remember when they hired a new partner: his claim to fame was that after leaving Wharton, he became a "monk" for a couple of years; total claptrap, and nobody believed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeJWilson (talk • contribs) 19:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]