Archives

(With a title so grand, this just has to be long.)

I argued on V that this guideline should be systematically audited: remove redundant material and move material that should actually be in policy to policy. That appears to be happening to some extent, as with the thread two up re convenience links. Thinking this through the following might happen:

• Cut the 'What is a reliable source?' section because we don't need two canonical descriptions of reliable sources and the one on V is superior; a few critical lines from here could be moved there.
• Collapse 'Why use reliable sources?' into two or three sentences and also move it; the policy itself should be making the observation about plagiarism and copyright.
• Move the exceptional claims description (the only really novel thing here) to V as well, as again this should probably be a policy advisement if we're to have it at all.
• Move convenience links to WP:CITE as the section more logically belongs there.

(Note if we did all this, V would still be a tidy page under 10k readable prose.)

And what would we be left with? Nothing. At best, 3k readable prose and the death of WP:RS. Perhaps that would be a good thing. This page has been in two states since its inception: bloated and unmanageable in '05 and '06, and skeletal and of little use in '07. And the irony is that this page never needed to exist. It was a fork of V to begin with.

How much has RS really helped people? How many canonical points of Wikipedia principle (e.g. "verifiability, not truth") has it produced? In my experience, it's been V that ultimately decides sourcing disputes and it's been V that has produced the principles that guide our sourcing. Not just "not truth," but burden of evidence, "challenged or likely to be challenged," and the canonical list of reliable sources (the second paragraph here). (Credit where it's due, we can thank SlimVirgin for much of this.)

Of course the words 'reliable sources' are of enormous value. But I've often thought people are so attached to the words they don't pause to consider whether the actual content of this guideline has much affect. If typing WP:RS took you to a section on V would the encyclopedia be worse off? Or might instead the encyclopedia be strengthened? Jimbo has noted that "Reliable sources, too, is quite different from NOR and V, although arguably a subset of Verifiability." It's not arguable, but obvious: the very definition of verifiability is, for Wikipedia's purposes, dependent on the definition of reliable sources. Not a subset, but totally enmeshed on a most basic conceptual level.

Two qualifiers:

• This is not a rehashing of ATT. The central plank of ATT was the V + NOR merger and the rename; clearly that's not going to happen. RS was the secondary concern (though its merging enjoyed more support). If RS forked from V organically, I don't see why we can't merge it back organically.
• I realize editors (Jossi, not least) have put an enormous amount of time into RS. (I've actually practically never edited here—never wanted to because the page is different every time I look at it.) But I wonder if the people who have edited it heavily have been motivated less by real fondness for the content than by a desire to keep a semblance of stability.

Lastly, I can anticipate the first argument: "but we need this for examples, extended descriptions, etc." Do we? If you believe, as this editor does, that policy should cover all the general points of concern and leave specific solutions to be derived on article talk, then no we don't need this page. We don't need a guideline saying "Do not use YouTube". We need a policy page saying "articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and whether we should use YouTube etc. should be perfectly obvious. Of course there'll still be debates at the margins—but I don't believe the existence of RS has in any way decreased such debates.

OK, I'll stop there. Marskell (talk) 15:08, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most definitively not the death of WP:RS, as the concept of "reliable sources" is fundamental to the project. But yes, this page has been a swinging pendulum, saying nothing new or saying way too much which was inconsistent with established policies depending on the day you looked at it. No harm will be done by redirecting WP:RS to WP:V#Sources, which is the policy on sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To often WP:RS has acted as a pretender to the throne, to the point that editors get confused as to W:RS’s true place is the scheme of things, and therein comes most of the problems. Remerging WP:RS into WP:V would eliminate a lot of problems. As Marskell noted, most of what this page is “suppose” to do, should logically take place on individual article talk pages, rather than having one all-include page that is "suppose" to nuance all issues. Brimba (talk) 16:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with jossi above about the state of the page, but I'm not certain I agree with all of your arguments, Marskell. At the risk of being the first to present your anticipated counterargument, I think guidelines are still necessary to avoid repeating the same discussions over and over again. Of course the people writing on this talk page all know (or should know) that YouTube is not reliable, but what about the newbies who saw something cool in a YouTube video and want to add it to an article? A lack of relatively clear-cut guidelines means that editors are doomed to rehashing the same points over and over again as we try to convince every newcomer that yes, this is Wikipedia policy and no, YouTube/MySpace/your mom's blog cannot be used to back up your claims.

That being said, a redirect to WP:V with an expansion of the reliable sources section would be most welcome, as V is the logical place for them to be. After all, what is verifiability but the state of being confirmed by reliable sources? This would also help solve the problem of having two definitions of reliable sources that do not always match up (e.g. WP:V notes foreign-language sources while WP:RS is mute on the subject).

So redirect? Yes. Cut out everything and leave editors to hash out the details on individual article talk pages? An emphatic no. --jonny-mt^(t)_(c)Tell me what you think! 16:40, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The solution is much more simple, two lists, one of definite RS's (ie the BBC) and one of sites that arn't RS's (ie MySpace) then we only need to argue about those not on these lists then put them on the appropriate list. Then people can easily know what is and isn't an RS. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:52, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We have Wikipedia:Reliable sources/examples that can be used or re-purposed after cleanup. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Jossi, certainly not the death of "reliable sources"—as a concept. The concept is fundamental to what Wikipedia has become, which is part of the point: it's so fundamental that the split to two pages doesn't make sense. V is, in many ways, the main policy the encyclopedia has, and the definition of V is inseparable from the definition of reliable sources. As Jonny says "what is verifiability but the state of being confirmed by reliable sources?"

To respond to Jonny more directly, I'll rephrase: policy application must be deductive. Because we cannot, in any stable way, legislate for every possibility, we need good general rules in policy that allow people to deduce what to do on a given article. I understand the newbie point, but don't agree that a merge will create a problem. You say to the newbie "listen, editorial oversight is a main point, as described on the verifiability policy; policies can't tell us what to do with every specific source, but the policy tells me here that we should not include this YouTube link because there's no editorial oversight." That is, you deduce from the general rule what to do in the specific case. Admittedly some sources (YouTube is probably the best example) come up so much, that a specific FAQ would be helpful. I can imagine a refocused examples page after a merge. But I don't see anything to speak against a merge. Marskell (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely support the merge. This page started life as a fork of V and has caused confusion ever since. Let's take the idea of it, and merge it into V or V/Sources. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clear, uninvolved support for the merge. A very good idea. Privatemusings (talk) 22:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Marskell above, I just want to clarify that I definitely support merging this page into WP:V. I think you're right about deductive reasoning informing our application of policy, and I agree that presenting a few choice sites/types of sites as examples of what can and cannot be included as a reliable source would make it that much easier to explain this policy to the newbies and ensure that article editing can proceed at a (relatively) smooth pace. My sole concern with the argument as you presented it was that (if I can be forgiven for using a saying so old it's got cobwebs on it) it seemed a little like we were throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But now that you've assuaged that concern, this merge has my full support. --jonny-mt^(t)_(c)Tell me what you think! 10:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Theoretically, the existence of this page is justfiable. In practice however, it's been unstable to the point of farce. I've lost count of the number of times in recent months I have argued that source x or y should/should not be used based on WP:RS, only to return here to find that the statement on which I was basing my position has disappeared from the guideline. In fact it's gotten so bad I decided some time ago to ignore what is written here since it can't be relied upon from one day to the next, and to just use common sense about RS instead. So what purpose is this page ultimately serving?

On the other hand, I'm not sure how getting rid of the page will solve the problem, as it may only move the policy meddling from here to WP:V. But I guess there is at least a little less licence to digress on a policy page. Also, having just one page on the subject might reduce the potential for confusion. Gatoclass (talk) 03:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"...a little less licence to digress on a policy page." Yes, definitely. It's revert first and ask questions later at V, just as at NOR and NPOV. This is a good thing. V is a stable page; elegant and succinct, IMO. We've warred on it but that's not entirely bad: it's wording has been scrutinized very closely. And yes, just one page would make things much easier to track. Marskell (talk) 09:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, a sensible and practical policy/guideline merger proposal. This has my support. Adrian M. H. 15:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I support the merger. I don't see a need for this to stand alone, and the topic seems fairly well covered at WP:V. --Kevin Murray (talk) 18:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the merger would be OK if we made the section on Reliable sources a guideline. Information about what sources are OK to use really needs to be a guideline for flexibility, as there are always going to be exceptions. It would be perfectly all right to say "everything must have a source" is policy, and "these sources are OK" a guideline. That would help avoid overzealous application of a reliable sources policy that can be subjective at times.

WP:NFC is an example of a guideline which includes a policy. My suggestion is the same but in reverse: a policy that includes a guideline. What do you think? —Remember the dot ^(talk) 02:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/examples can be retooled. We could make it an FAQ model. But it needs to be shortened. Just because you can think of an example doesn't mean it has to be added. We should just mention the ones that come up a lot. Marskell (talk) 18:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I should have been more clear. It would be perfectly all right to say "everything must have a source" is policy, and "these kinds of sources are OK" is a guideline. I just don't like the idea of writing "these kinds of sources are OK" into official policy where it will inevitably be overzealously applied. Making that a guideline would, in almost all cases, be more of a symbolic change than anything else, but it would help prevent policy abuse in some cases. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 18:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I would support User:Marskell's programme above. Redundancy on policy pages is bad, and recent changes to this article have made the rationale for its continued existence questionable. COGDEN 20:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, WP:RS has been thoroughly eviscerated over the past year, so its demise would probably be an act of mercy. Not long ago Gatoclass noticed that rigor mortis was setting in. Much of what was in it has been siphoned off to WP:V or WP:RS/Examples or some such. In essence, a rewickering of the current WP:RS and WP:RS/Examples should produce what WP:RS should have been. Of course, there’s the question of what the page should be called. (* Cough * ... Reliable Sources?) Askari Mark (Talk) 04:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it's been cut heavily over the last year, but again it was cut because it sucked and/or was redundant. The examples page has had less than a hundred edits in twelve months. It was essentially a moth-balling of info that nobody cared about. I would suggest that somebody move it to user space and we start again with a short Verifiability FAQ after a redirect. Marskell (talk) 12:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. The current version of the RS guidelines can be found at User:jonny-mt/RS; examples are at User:jonny-mt/RS/Examples. Edit away! --jonny-mt^(t)_(c)Tell me what you think! 13:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not merge WP:RS

I spent time arguing about this back in July. Unfortunately, I don't have time to be on Wikipedia all the time anymore, to keep close watch on policy and guideline pages. But, my view on this matter has not changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/archive_15

The concept of "reliable sources" is an important one, and one more simply understood (readability) by the newbie than verifiability. If I revert someone's edits, because they use some unreliable website (e.g. 9/11 conspiracy theory site), it's simple and clear enough to tell them that it's not a reliable source, pointing them to that page. I have spent way much more time than I wish, helping maintain pages about the 9/11 attacks, dealing with people that keep inserting unsourced or non-reliably sourced material. It's also an issue on other topics ( e.g. medical/health topics) where rigorously reviewed sources (e.g. peer reviewed journal articles) should usually take priority over other sources.

You just look at the name of the page or guideline "reliable sources" and a newbie has a pretty good idea what it is about. You tell them "verifiability" and it is not obviously clear from that word, what we mean. The word "reliable" is of utmost importance. Having a page with that word ("reliable) in the title gives this expectation extra emphasis. The guideline page can reiterate what is said on WP:V, could elaborate about reliable sources, and simply tell people that "reliable" sources is important on Wikipedia.

Please do not take this page away and redirect it. Please do not make it all the more difficult for me (and others) to edit, write, and maintain articles on Wikipedia. --Aude (talk) 22:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - WP:RS is much more suited to sharpen editorial judgement in weighing the reliability of sources, where WP:V can't do much more than set a hard minimum treshold. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But there is nothing here; as Jossi said, it's a redirect, not a merge. You can still tell your newbie all about reliable sources and it will be a stronger argument because it will be policy. Marskell (talk) 07:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And I'll just add, as a Q. What makes Wiki harder to maintain: referring newbies to an unstable guideline or referring them to a stable policy? When people link to RS what particular wording do they have in mind that will be of use? I can't think of any, because this page has never produced canonical wording. I never refer people to this page. I always point to V. It's V that makes the encyclopedia easier to maintain. Marskell (talk) 08:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The page title means something important. Now, why is there nothing here? Why has the page been unstable?

• [1] - large amount of material cut
• [2] - material cut from page
• [3] - User:BenB4, "until we can come up with a solution for transcluding, all of our guidance about what is and is not a reliable source should be here, because far more templates cite this, and it's only 4 paragraphs"
• [4] - edit warring between User:Wikidemo and User:Jossi
• [5] - material cut from page
• [6] - material cut (this may be okay)
• [7] - material restored by User:BenB4 that was "removed during WP:ATT promotion in April"

And so forth. I don't have the time to patrol changes to this page that have happened and revert them. But, there used to be a lot of useful guidance here [8] before material was purged from this page when creating WP:ATT, as well as recently. That's not acceptable. This page needs to be restored as a useful guideline. --Aude (talk) 11:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the page from before WP:ATT: [9]; Maybe this page should be rolled back to before that time, and copyedited to fit what's on WP:V and other pages currently. I know other pages were rolled back when WP:ATT was reverted. I'm simply tired of this page being purged, but don't have time to watch this page all the time and keep up with people that cut material. --Aude (talk) 12:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vehemently opposed. Marskell (talk) 12:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly dispute that your last link constitutes a useful guideline. To me, it's a bloated mess that I wouldn't go near. Attempting to restore this to '05 and '06 form would be absolutely the worst option. The principal words that we use to guide people—"verifiability, not truth," "challenged or likely to be challenged," "wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought"—have been generated on other pages, not RS. That we need the page simply because we need the name is not an argument that holds up; no one is going to be confused by a section on V labelled "Reliable sources." Marskell (talk) 12:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm strongly opposed to the drastic cuts on this guideline page. It used to be more useful as guidance for people. It needs to be restored as such. As for the page title, the word "reliable" is a simple word that everyone (including newbies) understands. Having that in the page title gives emphasis to the fact that reliable sources are important on Wikipedia. --Aude (talk) 12:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Between V, NOR, NPOV, and BLP, where are you lacking guidance now? Marskell (talk) 12:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why not have one single page that summarizes and provides guidance to the policies? As you point out, reliable sources is covered on multiple policy pages. It's overwhelming to point a newbie to the alphabet soup of multiple policy pages. Rather, let's point them to one single guideline page, where in turn they can go to those policy pages if they are interested. At least keep this page here for those who want to use it. You don't have to, but others do use it. I would at least be okay with reverting back to September, before recent purges. [10] --Aude (talk) 12:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, one single page: Wikipedia:Verifiability. Yours is an argument in favour of redundancy. Two descriptions of reliable sources. The version you link to last is nearly word-for-word what's already in V, as a matter of policy. It's silly to have to maintain two descriptions. If they're identical, it's pointless; if they're divergent, it's dangerous. Marskell (talk) 12:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reliable source examples is difficult to find there. A summary of that, along with other key policies would be useful guidance. I would find that extremely useful, vastly more than referring them to WP:V and the alphabet soup of other pages. --Aude (talk) 12:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The examples page has an essay tag. It's the crap that was forked out of here and is in serious need of an audit. "Vastly" better? What's hard about referring to V now? The policy pages are themselves summaries. You're asking to retain another letter of the soup when it's redundant. We could make this a soft redirect, however; maybe three or four sentences. Marskell (talk) 12:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's vastly better and more direct to tell a newbie that their changes were reverted because they did "not comply with our reliable source guidelines" or "...is not a reliable source", rather than their changes were reverted because they did "not comply with the reliable sources section of the verifiability policy". The words "reliable source" are meaningful for Wikipedia. Verifiability with what? with reliable sources! A guideline page on reliable sources is essential. --Aude (talk) 12:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now, due to real life priorities, I will be off Wikipedia for a while, possibly until tomorrow or Sunday. My silence on the matter does not mean that I agree to changes. --Aude (talk) 12:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aude, now c'mon. You would just say it did "not comply with our reliable source policy." And note that that's a truer statement: that we use reliable sources is a matter of policy.

Anyhow, new thread started below. Marskell (talk) 12:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<<<< Aude's comment in the maililing list that newbies will understand better the concept of "Reliable sources" that the concept of verifiability is easily dealt with, as no one s arguing that the concept of "reliable sources" is removed from from lexicon. We will still be aboe to send people to WP:RS or to describe the need for reliable sources as these will be redirected to WP:V#Sources that explains these concepts quite clearly. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where do we stand on this at the moment? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} —Preceding comment was added at 22:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This debate reminds me of Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Archive 1. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 01:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right now, we stand at the point where we should contact Jimbo.

Phil, as has been made clear in the various threads, this is not a redoing of ATT. The RS redirect was secondary to that proposal. But if you go back through the opposes on the poll, you'll see that it actually enjoyed the most support. Marskell (talk) 08:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is not the contents I am talking about, it is some of the editors very actively involved in suggesting the redirection of RS and the style of the conversation. And what I've seen written on this page since I posted the comment above only increases my sense of Déjà vu --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 07:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose with the firey passion of a thousand burning suns, and here's why. At it's core, RS seems to be a simple, cut-and-dry document: "don't use unreliable sources." If this were a simple paper encyclopedia then that would be nearly sufficient for policy in and of itself. The problem is that with the vast and wide array of subjects that Wikipedia covers there will inevitably be exceptions to any policy version of Reliable Sources, no matter how well it is phrased. Take, for example, blogs: not a particularly reliable source. But what if it's an article about blogs, or an article about a rumor that started on a blog, or an internet meme involving a blog, and so on and so forth. There are countless other situations where exceptions would arise that would either qualify previously unreliable sources or disqualify normally reliable sources. (or both) Because it is so likely that exceptions will arise, Reliable Sources must remain as a guideline, as guidelines are specifically for those documents to which exceptions will occur. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 08:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly. That questionable sources may be used in articles about themselves is long established in policy. See WP:SELFPUB. Marskell 08:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• "This page started life as a fork of V and has caused confusion ever since" <-- translation: POV pushers dislike this page because it puts limits on their POV pushing. I suggest we return the page to this version and then develop the page with many examples of reliable and non-reliable sources. This page should be a key part of the institutional memory of Wikipedia: sources demonstrated by the community to not be reliable and not be acceptable for use at Wikipedia should be listed here (or on subpages) along with the evidence upon which the community has made its decisions. --JWSchmidt 16:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Late into the party, and almost certainly repeating something somebody said above, I definitely support this move/merge. I constantly hear myself saying "You need to establish verifiability through the use of reliable sources", whilst linking to two different pages. Too complicated. Merge them, cut out unnecessary stuff, and keep it both simple and reader-friendly. Anthøny 22:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and Change NameAs someone still learning my way around, having two pages is frustrating. But understand that "reliable sources" is easier for people to understand. Why not change page name to to Reliable, Verifiable Sources "WP:RVS" - have our cake and eat it too. And of course there will be the internal link to Reliable sources people always can direct others to. When does this get decided by the way???

Carol Moore 20:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)CarolMooreDC talk

Merge — Also late to the party, but agree that sourcing needs tightening. There is a shameful lack of stringent sourcing on Wikipedia overall. What harm can be done by requiring proper, solid sourcing — and spelling it out for volunteers who are, mostly, not trained academics or journalilsts?

When those opposing a stringent level of sourcing by using phrases like, "No, by a thousand burning suns" (for example), I do have to question the rational basis for that argument, if it's so unsteady than such emotional appeal has to be used. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that most people who commented on the merge of this page to WP:V#Sources agreed with it. Is that right, and if so, can we go ahead? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 11:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll belatedly indicate agreement, if that helps. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 11:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently The Transhumanist felt otherwise[11]. --Pixelface (talk) 14:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was once an ardent supporter of this page. Back shortly before the debates over WP:ATT, I resisted a similar proposal to merge. Since that time, however, I have come to realize that the page has an inheirant flaw. No matter what we do, it ends up being edited and tweeked to the point where it conflicts with WP:V. I have see this page edited, revised, rewritten, cut back and expanded, tweeked and re-revised about three times in the last two years. In each case we ended up with language that conflicted with WP:V. That is something that can not continue. WP:V is a core policy and any guidelines that are derived from it must follow it closely. Given the history of this page, the only way to ensure that this happens is to return WP:RS to where it came from... as a sub-section in V. It is time to merge the two pages. Blueboar (talk) 15:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blueboar, do we need any more discussion, or can we just go ahead now, do you think? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 13:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lets start 2008 with this one resolved. I support the merge. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Aude was the most vigorous opposer. The discussion stalemated but there was majority support by a significant margin. Aude's one of our best, so I didn't want to push things and left it. Marskell (talk) 15:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any suggestions as to how we should proceed then? We want to respect people's views, but we can't really wait for 100 percent consensus either. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but I worry about fighting a protracted rearguard battle. Once people notice, there'll be a lot of wtf's arriving. At a minimum, a clear rationale for why it occurred should be drafted in advance, with links to threads showing support for it. My extended comment under "Death of..." has some things. Marskell (talk) 15:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marskell, I think your extended comments make excellent points, but the title is provocative and misleading. The key point is that WP:RS is alive and well, and living in WP:V#RS. As long as we emphasize that point, and explain that nothing is lost, that WP:RS can still be used as a shortcut to the same information, and perhaps most importantly, it is now a policy (as it effectively always was), most people should buy it. Crum375 (talk) 16:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title was meant to elicit replies, which it did. By no means do I suggest using it as a title for a summary statement. Marskell (talk) 21:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an idea that is going to cause a lot of knee-jerk reaction. I do not want a situation similar to what happened with the WP:ATT proposal... where people were surprized by the merger and reacted negatively to it without really thinking about it. It is vital that those of us who are in favor of the merger act in a slow, deliberate and open fashion.

I agree that the first step is to prepare a clear statement of why this merger is in the best interest of the project... stting the problems that WP:RS has had and why it is better to address the issue in WP:V. The next step is to notify Jimbo of our intent, and get him on board with this idea. We also need to give a LOT of warning and notice before any merger goes into effect. Let's take the time to do our homework and get it right this time. Blueboar (talk) 18:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest the village pump as well. UnitedStatesian (talk) 18:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The village pump was done back when we talked about this before the holidays. Again, we should gather together links to discussions that have already happened. I suppose I ought to do it, as I started most of the recent ones. Marskell (talk) 21:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marskell, once we have a sub-page outlining the arguments for a merger (with all the links that you are talking about) I would suggest yet another post to the pump... and to as many other locations as we can think of. We are proposing something that many editors will see as a major change to Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, and the last thing we want is for people to come back in a month or two and say, "Hey, this blindsided me... there was no notice". That is one of the problems that occured with the WP:ATT proposal... even though more than 100 editors spent months ironing out the wording, and the proposal achieved a consensus of the "policy wonks"... the community at large had no idea that all this work was taking place. When the proposal went live, the broader community was taken by surprise and objected. We need to clearly outline what we are attempting to achieve with this merger, and the reasons for it. Then we need to shout it from the roof-tops... repeatedly. Blueboar (talk) 13:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blueboar, there's a danger of overdoing it. There isn't anything on this page, and there was never really any consistent and stable content, so we don't want to give the impression that we're redirecting anything substantive. One of the issues some opposers raised with ATT is that they feared it would make this page policy, which was a complete misunderstanding, but it sprang from the belief that this page said something, and that redirecting it to a policy would make that something policy too. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I have to correct what you said about ATT, because that's not what happened. People were told (including Jimbo) weeks or even months in advance. When it went live, everyone was fine with it. People were saying it was the first time they'd ever understood the content policies. Then, one dark and stormy night, Jimbo got involved in a dispute over someone using a primary source to add contentious material to a BLP. He objected that it was OR. They said it wasn't. He therefore went to the OR page to find the section about primary sources, where someone had unfortunately added that the policy was "obselete," and that's when he hit the roof. Of course, it wasn't obselete -- it had just been moved to ATT -- but the damage was done. People saw his objections; troublemakers arrived at ATT to do what troublemakers do; we had to hold a poll; they caused trouble there too (I think we had to hold a poll to decide the poll questions at one point, and we had disputes over dispute tags); and then, because of a turnout of hundreds, we failed to achieve consensus, but we did get a majority. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment by callmebc: It seems to me that there is a basic difference between information that anyone can verify versus content coming from a trusted source. For instance, "what day of the week in 1972 did Ground Hog day fall on?" is something anyone can look up, so that's verifiable information. But what did President Richard Nixon discuss with Communist Party Chairman Mao Zedong and Premier Zhou Enlai during Nixon's visit in 1972? You have newspaper coverage from the time, but you also have access to now declassified documents related to the meetings. The first source of information, like say articles in the NY Times, would fall under reliable sources, which you can cite freely. But the second source of information is now in a gray area between being verifiable and original research. If you needed an exact quote, which source would you use, though, if there is a difference? I would say Wikipedia needs a single authoritative, as well as regularly updated and reviewed, policy page that covers all aspects of "good sources" and sets reasonable and scholarly guidelines for verifiable versus original research. The overall guiding light should be, I think, "What would help articles be as authoritative and as accurate as possible? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hink you mean "guideline page", not "policy page"

objection and alternative

The objection to merging this it that WP:V is policy, and therefore needs to be general, and we also need a page of guidelines to interpret it, which should be WP:RS. The reason WP:V remains acceptable as policy is that all the practical arguments go here. And surely people are not suggesting that WP:V be downgraded to a guideline. I think that rather, we should deal with the difference between the two pages by moving a good deal of the content from V to this page, because most of it is in fact meant to be -- and is-- interpreted flexibly. DGG (talk) 16:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with DGG to not merge/delete/archive/obsolete/move. One WP:RS is engrained in our fiber as a reference point. Two I don't think the V talk page is too crowded so let's throw all the RS questions onto it as well, that wouldn't be swell, as it is people can't easily search through 25 archives to find that thread they remember it's already not very workable. I can't see that improving by merging personally. I am *OPEN* to having my mind changed.Wjhonson (talk) 22:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that, when I lasted look at this page (and almost every time I've looked at it), it didn't say much or anything that isn't in V, NOR, or BLP. And it has always either been that way, or else it has contradicted V (and has often been internally inconsistent too). That has been the perennial problem with it. We don't need a second page that says we need to use good sources. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources remain a key concept on Wikipedia. Editors often refer to it. There are numerous aspects of reliable sources (see the noticeboard and examples page) that do not belong on the policy page, but instead are suitable here on the guideline page. --Aude (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thought it was about time for WP:PEREN#Define reliable sources --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know what's weird on this to me is that, for the most part, the project is going along fine. I wonder if people are learning by example more than by rule ? I have no idea. Maybe the vast majority of people already know "in their heart" (if you will) what is a reliable source. Which observation, would beg a question that I'm not sure I want to actually specify.Wjhonson (talk) 01:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of my interests is video, which is becoming increasingly widespread on the internet. I am musing over the feasibility of using video as a source. If I upload a video of some event, or someone making a speech, can this be used as a reference supporting article text about the event itself? If a newspaper quotes Gordon Brown as saying "xyz", is this more reliable than a video of Gordon Brown saying the same thing? And should we cite a link to a video on Wikimedia Commons? Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on the provenance of the video... ie who "published" it. Something you found on Youtube would not be reliable (no way to know that it hasn't been doctored)... something obtained from a major news network would be. Blueboar (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you might say something like that ;-) Unfortunately, most reliable sources do not make their video content freely available.

There is a difference in convincingness between a piece of text someone claims someone said and a video from the same person saying it. The question is whether this should be reflected in any way in WP (which has traditionally been quite conservative where video is concerned). Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen I would not suggest this approach. If I may. "If I upload a video..." is going to be a large red flag for you. Editors who oppose your sourcing will claim you are doing original research in uploading, or will question your motivation in using a source *with which* you have been somehow intimately involved, which might be a type of conflict-of-interest. Laying aside the question of whether these claims have evidence, contentiousness can arise from the *impression* that these claims have merit. A much better idea would be to simply cite the video as your source with a full bibliographic citation and then add a quote from it. Provided the video is verifiable and created by a reliable source there should be no problem. Convenience links are not necessary to cite a video. Videos which are not published cannot be cited at all. So ensure that the video has been published, and not self-published.Wjhonson (talk) 23:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sort of reliable source I am thinking of could be the FT, which has increasing video content on its site. Videos in Wikimedia can presumably be used to illustrate the text in the same way that images can. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, as links or cited sources if that's what you mean. You should give a full citation so others can easily find the material. There's no prohibition against citing videos, in general. Just the standard prohibitions against unreliable or unverifiable sources (et cetera).Wjhonson (talk) 01:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who's in charge of making that decision? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.17.246 (talk) 23:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia works by consensus. In the case of sources which are contentious, we debate calmly with each other (*silences the hysterical laughter*) to arrive at a conclusion with which we can mostly and mosttimes concur. Wjhonson (talk) 23:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To discuss a specific source, please post your specific source question to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard Have a super day. Wjhonson (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, Thanks for the help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.17.246 (talk) 04:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have written an essay about assessing the reliability of different articles. I was hoping to get other editors to review, add to it and edit it. Currently, it is in my userspace at User:Billscottbob/Assessing reliability. Thanks for any input you may have. If you have anything you wish to discuss about it please do not discuss it here. Please discuss it on the talk page of the essay. Billscottbob (talk) 02:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to merge that into WP:EVAL. MilesAgain (talk) 10:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Behavior guidelines aren't set in stone, but should have "the occasional exception." I propose that this be a policy. For anyone who disagrees, I have the following open question: Under what "occasional exception," can a person use unreliable sources? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 01:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to think that it's just a matter of someone taking issue with it. Alot of the time, people reference web pages that in themselves aren't really "reliable" but make reasonable enough claims, and if someone has a problem with it at a later date, it can be cross-referenced. People cite online news articles all the time; articles rarely provide any references. I think that they qualify as unreliable. Oftentimes, though, specific claims in articles and other "unreliable" sources can be cross-referenced at a later date should somebody take issue with it. Everything always has more than one source somewhere.

I think it also depends on how critical the source is to the content of the article as a whole. If an "unreliable" source is used to add a detail here or there, I think that's mostly fine unless someone can disprove it. If a singular unreliable source is used to form a major part of the article, that's more of a problem. Anyway, there's my two cents. Jdkkp (talk) 02:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, that anything is allowed unless someone objects is an unspoken truth. Another is that even a nominally reliable source can't be used if other sources -- not even necessarily of the same caliber -- say it's wrong. MilesAgain (talk) 06:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jdkkp: Your statement contradicts the burden of proof laid out in WP:V.

MilesAgain: "that anything is allowed unless someone objects is an unspoken truth," is true, but that should not be the case because people should not be using unreliable sources "if they can get away with it." They shouldn't be used unreliable sources at all.

Furthermore, what is the difference between a nominally reliable a source and a source that is really unreliable? What other sources say of the source is irrelevant, because Wikipedia doesn't go by others' standards. It goes by the standards laid out in WP:RS and WP:V. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 10:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are reports of polywater in peer-reviewed academic journals, but no reasonable editor will abide attempts to include them as accurate results. Wikipedia's first rule to consider, and by definition the overarching rule, is WP:IAR, which specifically refers to improving the encyclopedia.

What do you think Jdkkp said that conflicts with WP:V's burden of proof? MilesAgain (talk) 13:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to fringy or otherwise unreliable sources, people use online news articles all the time. They're subject to bias and factual difficulties and almost never provide their own sources. But they come from reputable news organizations and so people throw them in as references. What editors are supposed to do and what ends up in the articles here are not always the same thing. In practice, a source is only as unreliable as somebody alleges it to be. Sources are cited all the time that are on the shaky side, especially in obscure articles, and they can remain that way for years until somebody comes by and notices it. Regardless of whether or not it's the right way to do it, it happens. Jdkkp (talk) 19:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See the WP:V#Reliable sources policy, saying reliable sources are those that, "have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy," which applies to the vast majority of mainstream news sources. MilesAgain (talk) 20:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I want to give "position statement from a mainstream scientific body" as an example of a reliable source for "claims of consensus". What would constitute a similar example for consensus among ministers or scholars? ----Action potential ^{t c} 13:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A position statement does not necessarily demonstrate consensus, as the organization may not be representative of all scientists in the field. I would suggest that the requirement of reliability mean that the source must have polling data demonstrating the consensus view--especaially if it is an issue of any level of controversy.--Strider12 (talk) 23:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it depends on the body... some organizations represent the vast majority of scientists in their field, while others do not. Thus, some position papers may represent consensus opinion, while others won't. The same is true for most accademic fields... some orgainzations have a significantly large enough membership in a given field of study that they might be citable for consensus, while others will not. Blueboar (talk) 04:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A misuse of the policy of reference to RS is clearly visible in the article about 9/11. CNN is just cited as a "reliable source". By what?

Such a nonsense could make sense related to preliminary statements or assumptions, as long as they are not put into question by other "reliable sources" or by other facts.

As long as something is questionable it should not have a place on Wikipedia. The problem is, that we just exchanged the "judges" of our traditional sources of information with others, who hide their work of missinformation under the cover of a "neutral community".

Thruth is not a democratic subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by grehuy 124.120.144.189 (talk) 09:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RS is not a policy.

WP:V is, containing (e.g.) "Verifiability, not truth".

WP:NPOV is too, containing (e.g.) "The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly."

What is your problem again? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CNN is the epitome of a reliable source but like everything, you have to consider what it's being cited for. I wouldn't cite it on a matter of theology. But if the question is what day a pipe burst in Chicago, or whether an interstate highway was closed in a blizzard, I think it's a pretty solid source. Obviously, terrorism is quite politicized and the major news media have a hard time being objective when things become political. Somehow I suspect the original poster's notion of truth, though, is not a mainstream one.

I wouldn't worry that truth is undemocratic. So is Wikipedia. A good match perhaps. Wikidemo (talk) 18:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the kind readers of this talk page may take interest in the discussion here. Specifically, the exchange ongoing between Francis and I on the use of "old", "dead", archaic or hard to find sources in building an article. If you have any opinions, please feel free to weigh in there. Lawrence § t/e 23:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i watched a video on youtube claiming that jimi hendrix was accually born on the isle of lewis. Jimi's father was fighting at war and his plane crashed in the minch and was then washed up on a beach in lewis. he was found and treated by someone who they named mary he fell in love with mary and had a child Jimi. the mother was supposed to have died at birth and when she did the father left. is this true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.130.18 (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would say no. A quick look at various online biographies all say he was born in Washington (State). You can not rely on things you see on YouTube Blueboar (talk) 17:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been meaning to ask this for some time. Are papers delivered orally at academic conferences considered RSs? Granted, the authors are usually specialists in a field, but specialists broadly defined to include unpublished graduate students in the first years of their doctoral programs. More importantly, conference papers have not been peer-reviewed, selected for publication, or in most cases fact-checked or even proofread by anyone except their author. The way the process works is that a conference is announced, you send in a proposal in the form of a brief precis (a paragraph or at most a page), and then you're either invited or not invited to present. You write your paper and then when you arrive you read your paper out loud and people ask questions. Then comes the coffee break or catered lunch with cellophane-wrapped sandwiches, and you stand around talking to other nervous people in cheap blazers and hope to make professional connections.

These papers are then sometimes gathered together in book form (or increasingly online) as "proceedings," but these publications are understood not to consist of vetted material. The idea is rather that others in the field can consult them to see what is going on in their discipline, get in touch with scholars with whom they have an affinity, and so on. They are a step above water-cooler talk. It is often the case that published scholarly articles began life as conference papers, but the latter are absolutely not regarded within academia as the equivalent of peer-reviewed or published work. They are to published work what a studio pitch is to a finished film. On your CV, they give an indication of your energy and productivity, but say nothing at all about the stature of your work or the level of acceptance it is meeting with in the discipline at large.

It does not seem to me appropriate to cite such material as reliable sources in Wikipedia. Doubtless, a great deal of good work is presented at such conferences, but the good work becomes the seed of a proper journal article or book chapter, and it is in that finished, vetted, and vouched-for form that it becomes reliable. Even in academic writing, it is considered bad form to cite someone's conference paper without their permission; the assumption is that the conference paper is a work-in-progress. I wonder if the RS policy might begin to make some clear distinctions along these lines.--G-Dett (talk) 21:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it depends on the statement being made, why you are using them as a citation... used as a citation for the fact that scientist X say "Y" at Conference Z, they should probably be reliable ... but not for much else. Blueboar (talk) 22:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That seems very sensible, but in my experience they are used much more loosely on Wikipedia.--G-Dett (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It depends upon the conference in question. Some conferences are in fact peer-reviewed, others have strict admittance rules. It is also worth looking up how a particular talk is cited. A conference paper that is well-cited (and not discredited) in quality journals could well be considered reliable. LinaMishima (talk) 23:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the paper was printed somewhere, it is usually peer reviewed. I'd say usually such papers are reliable.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is quite usual to publish conference proceedings in print or online, without any peer-review or even basic copy-editing.--G-Dett (talk) 00:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An oral presentation is not a published source, but the proceedings themselves are. The reliablity of the proceedings varies greatly by conference but more by field. A good example is computer science, where conference papers are often peer-reviewed and considered more prestigious than ordinary journal articles. But based on your description above, it sounds more like a humanities conference. I am not familiar with assessing reliability of humanities conference papers, but if they are published in printed form then they must be good for something. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, this is coming from a humanities/social sciences background. What you're saying about computer science is very interesting; I didn't know that. But it's quite the opposite in the humanities. And the question isn't whether the published proceedings of humanities/social sciences conferences are good for something – they're good for many things. The point is only that they're not vetted in any way. To be sure, I'm talking mostly about proceedings published online, because that's what Wikipedians are digging up for the most part. But it's also true in many cases of print proceedings.

Sometimes conference papers will be published in a special volume, with a general editor and so on, and obviously that's a different thing. But given that this is the exception, and that usually when conference papers are made available online they're not peer-reviewed, fact-checked, or copy-edited, would it be fair to say that the editor proposing to cite facts to a conference paper would need to show that it had indeed been properly vetted?--G-Dett (talk) 00:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Assessing the reliability of sources like that is one of the reasons that editors familiar with the subject matter make a big difference. This is especially true when the question is whether a particular interpretation is common or not. At the least, you can always attribute claims to the person making them, if they are not common. I don't think it's possible to make a set of hard rules that would explain the process by which the reliability of these sources is assessed; we usually resolve them here by ad hoc discussion on talk pages. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would just like to add, that the mere action of binding various papers into one volume and adding perhaps synopsis or other notes, does not necessarily now make the contents of those papers more reliable than they were previously.Wjhonson (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say reliable if (a) subsequently reproduced in a peer-reviewed journal or (b) subsequently cited in peer-reviewed works. The practice of finding a single supporting opinion (re: CBM's) for a non-mainstream position and then writing "One author..." is far too prevalent; such editorial insertions should be discouraged regardless of their source. One can always find at least one author to support a flat earth or a cheese moon. —PētersV (talk) 02:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do I suddenly have a desire to publish the "Journal of Lunarcaseus Studies" or "The American Lunarcaseus Society Quarterly". Blueboar (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's my motivational influence. Personally, I like your concept of a quarterly. —PētersV (talk) 05:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I remind you that the one absolute requirement in publishing a journal is to have some articles to publish.DGG (talk) 09:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone. Any further input or examples would also be appreciated.--G-Dett (talk) 21:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redlink above should probably be Lunar viridis caseus -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the first conference abstract I published I misspelled the name of the organism I was working on. In science these abstracts generally have no editorial process or review and are not reliable sources. If it is good data it will be published in a journal later on. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unless the paper is being used to cite exceptional/controversial claims, such papers are usually RS. But if it is an exceptional/controversial claim or sufficiently close to one, then we're better off comparing it to other published research and vetting it ourselves before using it. Sarvagnya 22:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the proceedings are peer-reviewed, then certainly it may be considered RS. In other cases, I tend to agree with Sarvagnya. Keep in mind that even a paper with a problematical finding will likely have most everything else right; the "unusual" finding will automatically attract attention and criticism if inadequately supported. Still, a non-peer-reviewed paper should be considered as a "tentative" source pending identification of a better one. Askari Mark (Talk) 23:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would be much more cautious about non-peer reviewed conference papers--there is often no control over them at all, and the material usually looks very different if it is eventually published. (In some fields, they may never get published). It depends on the reputation of the conference for screening submissions. The ones that are published only as abstracts, where the full talks are not available, are essentially useless, as there is no guarantee that the abstract will actually have much resemblance to the talk. This is certainly true for many abstracts in biology, where they report work in progress which may or may not eventually be subsumed in some possibly quite different manner in a published paper. Other fields may differ. Even for ostensibly peer-reviewed papers, the level of peer review is sometimes quite different from those for publications. The nature of the conference and the reputation of its publications must be taken account. The published IEEE symposia are examples of proceedings which can be used about as reliable as more formally published sources. Others vary. the world is not divided cleanly into peer-reviewed / not-peer-reviewed, but there is a continuum. DGG (talk) 15:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This varies dramatically from field to field, as someone pointed out. At conferences in history and sociology - not to mention literary theory - for example, one frequently sees papers that are some distance out of the mainstream; and there is usually no way of telling from a cursory inspection whether or not this is true of a particular paper because the discussant's remarks are rarely part of the record. (I'm sure we all know people who've written a really startling abstract to try and get to that thing in Hawaii and then bash out something three days before the deadline.) In the social sciences big conferences are rarer and most people there are presenting work that they intend to have published, so that means they should be treated as working papers - not peer-reviewed, but frequently cited in the literature. (Amusingly, in economics journal articles often cite the same authors' working papers for the actual mathematics or econometrics required for the result; the rather shocking corollary is that the reasoning underlying some of these articles isnt actually peer-reviewed before its published. Of course, once its published and attracts attention, sometimes someone goes back and checks, and there's trouble. This happened recently to a landmark paper in school vouchers.) In some of the physical sciences, and particularly in CS, conference papers are usually rock-solid. Relata refero (talk) 23:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the delay in commenting. In mathematics, frequently the procedings of a coference where experts in the field are invited to comment on the current research in the field, only copyediting is done, not fact-checking. (I know, because one of my conference papers was published and had a rather stupid error....) Unless you make the assumption that I (or one of the other coauthors) was considered "beyond criticism", this suggests conference procedings should generally not be considered reliable. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(1) This general discussion seems to overestimate the reliability of peer reviewed papers, especially in herd mentality situations, where later outside scrutiny shows no "expert" even checked the calculations, sources or basic hypothesis testing(!!) on important, widely quoted papers.

(2) On some hot, non-academic subjects there may be *no* independent, refereed academic papers but exaggerated popular mythology, obsolete dogma, paraded as "mainstream science" with commercial POV$ totally dominating in the advertisement based media. Even premiere "peer reviewed" journals that receive 98+% of their *gross* revenue from one group of advertisers in scandal after scandal[[12]. Some independence.

(3) Disregarding conference papers also leads to situations where common magazines or even near blog level zines, working heavily in favor of or directly at the behest of their prime advertisers, are being quoted as RS sources in preference to (otherwise?) peer reviewed academic journals with scholarly conference papers with careful statements and academic sources by tenured PhD profs are being disparged as non RS in favor of comparatively light weight sources e.g. recent 3 yr college graduate of questionable technical literacy directly sponsored by some of the world's largest (WP unattributed) advertisers, Pfizer-Spiked fluff and 3rd runner up with at least one vote after the credibility enhancing 10 famous winners in an otherwise "friends & family beauty contest", while leaving out serious academic criticism from Hufford's (presumed not peer reviewed conference) paper^{full copy} in a prominent academic journal, quoting Prof Kauffman's science based website review.

Arthur & I have had conflicts on several articles that challenge his onsite / offsite POV for sometime on a specific conference paper in a WP article that often represents a seriously partisan, misinforming view of *current* most accurate science in medicine as opposed to current (or yesteryear) *marketing models* (what's best for the company may not be best for you) in medicine (highly commercially slanted POV and often 20-30 years slippage).

Therefore there seem to be cases where not only are the independent conference papers the best academic source available, but their RS is quite competitive or superior to directly ad paid copy, or associated copy, in the nominal WP:RS magazines by basic writers. Good faith WP:RS of scholarly papers necessitates a relative heirarchy on best available sources and WP:V fact checking the sources where ultimately WP:V dominates science issues. In some cases I've seen, deprecating conference papers oout of hand seems agenda driven to me.--I'clast (talk) 16:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

as mentioned by everyone, it depends on the subject and the conference. What you say will sometimes be true, but so will the opposite. it is, to use your example, also rather common or pharmaceutical companies to sponsor conferences and invite the speakers, and have the results published. The reliability in specific situations needs to be discussed separately on the talk page or a noticeboard.DGG (talk) 21:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are religious authorities considered WP:RS sources even if they do not have PhDs from accredited universities? This question is extremely relevent in the Hinduism related articles since much research and study has been done by people who are considered authorities in the field who are considered "religious authorities" and have gone through what might be considered a different line of education than what is considered traditional education as introduced through the British System.Kkm5848 (talk) 17:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You want to put this up at WP:RS/N, actually. And the answer is that its difficult, because, if nothing else, some religions, like Hinduism or most streams of Protestantism, don't have a unified structure, and thus there are frequently vast doctrinal differences. In such cases, the pronouncements of religious authorities are dependent upon which authority, and will have to be balanced with disclaimers about how they don't necessarily speak for all interpreters. There are at least three other problems, at least that I can think of. Relata refero (talk) 23:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that this is not a clear cut, yes or no question. Not all religious faiths are clear cut when it comes to who is or is not an "authority" or an "expert". Relata's take is good... it often depends on the faith in question, and the reputation of the "authority" within the faith's community. Caveats and disclaimers would have to be given in many cases. Blueboar (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A unified structure isn't a requirement, otherwise universities and academics, who do not have a unified structure, could not be considered reliable. The requirement is simply (a) inherent significance of the religion, and (b) an established process for vetting reliability which can include agreed-on outstanding scholars. In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the decentralized organizational system doesn't preclude basic agreement on who is considered a top-tier notable authority, everyone would accept Rashi and Rambam as major classical opinions, Moshe Feinstein as a major recent authority in (non-Hassidic) Ashkenazic Judaism, Joseph B. Soloveitchik as a major authority from Modern Orthodox Judaism, and Ovadia Yoseph as a major authority from contemporary Sephardic Judaism, and this can be clearly documented. These are of course all secondary and tertiary sources; the Bible and the Talmud are the basic primary sources. Things may be different in other religions, but Islam, for example, has certain seminaries generally recognized as outstanding, much as academia has top universities. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 14:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Journalism involves both the uncovering and reporting of events and the formulation and expression of opinion. If a wikipedia entry refer to a news piece of the former variety, it would be both verifiable and reliable. If it was to the latter, it would be verifiable and unreliable. News organisations have editorial policy that is determined by their editorial board and/or owner. In the UK, most news organisations that publish in print have political affiliations and align themselves explicitly with political parties at election times. For example The Daily Mail is a right-wing organ whereas The Guardian's editorial policy leans heavily to the left. As the editorializing text says, the trouble is that fact vs. opinion in news articles often breaks down.

I argue that WP:RS should stay because there is a meaningful distinction between verifiability and reliability. I further argue that the reliability of news organisation sources (e.g. Washington Post, Paris Match, The Times) is identified as less supportable than that originating in independent scholarship. 138.38.32.83 (talk) 13:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.32.83 (talk) 13:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply] 

Major newspapers are almost always considered reliable in the absence of evidence to the contrary (i.e., disagreeing with other reliable sources or having its reliability called into question by another reliable source). And any good newspaper will usually make very clear through wording or titling the difference between their factual claims and their interpretive opinions, so anyone is within their right to match the weaseliness (or lack thereof) that a newspaper invokes. If there is a specific example you're taking issue with, you can bring it to the reliable sources noticeboard. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a general question regarding sources related to political controversies. Let's say we are talking about a WP article regarding a certain law and this article has a subsection "Controversies and Criticism". My question is about what kind of sources, apart from newspaper articles where particular aspects of the law are being criticized, would be considered reliable sources. E.g.: a political blog; the web site of a political advocacy group; the web site of a political party; a political discussion forum; the web site of a professional association or a trade union; the web site of a non-political organization that is being affected by the law (e.g. stamp collectors), etc.

The most problematic of these are clearly political blogs and political discussion forums. Ordinarily they would not be considered reliable sources. But in this case, if they are cited only to illustrate that a particular kind of political criticism has been raised against the law in question, should there be an exception? I'd appreciate any advice. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They shouldn't be cited on their own to illustrate anything (generally speaking). Similar to the guideline for deserving an article, a criticism, no matter how verifiable by its primary source, is probably not worth noting if it has not been mentioned in a reliable source. There are only two exceptions I could think of. The first would be criticism in primary form from a very notable source of criticism. Something like a notable book from an already notable author, or anything else of that nature (i.e., both the primary source and its author are notable, but don't use this if it's a BLP issue.). The second would be criticism from a non-notable source (like someone's blog) when the author is notable and this criticism has been mentioned in a reliable source. In this case, the primary source could be cited just to exemplify a notable individual who agrees with the criticism. And that's only worth doing if it's somehow relevant; there's little point mentioning all the random people who don't like Bush, for example. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot for the response! By "they" in "they shouldn't be cited on their own" you mean the blogs, correct? Let me clarify the intent of my original question. I was talking about referencing political blogs as primary sources of criticism. That is, suppose that a particular political criticism is voiced by the author of a prominent political blog (rather then, when the blog reports that somebody else voiced this criticism). E.g. something like Talking Points Memo, a prominent liberal political blog by Josh Marshall, or Power Line, a prominent conservative blog by John H. Hinderaker, Scott W. Johnson, and Paul Mirengoff. Say Marshall or Hinderaker writes an opinion column in their respective blog claiming that a particular law is unconstitutional because it violates the First Amendment. And say one wanted to reference this column as a source for the sentence "Some crtitics claim that the law is unconstitutional and violates the First Amendment" in a WP article about the law in question. Would that still be unacceptable? Or would this qualify as the first of the two exceptions you mentioned? Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 12:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blogs are generally not considered reliable. They are opinion pieces. The blogs of experts, however, are bit of a grey zone. The blogs in question might be considered reliable sources for the opinions of their authors, and they might not. That really depends on the notability and reputation of the author in the topic area under discussion. In the case of your example, we have to ask: Are these bloggers considered experts on constitutional law by the wider community? My guess is that they are not. They are political bloggers... so, while I could see them being considered experts in politics (and thus, for example, reliable for a statement about the likelihood of Obama defeating Clinton for the Democratic Party's nomination for President), I am not at all sure we can consider them experts in constitutional law. If I am correct, their opinion on the constitutionality of a law would not really be reliable. Their opinion would not be all that notable.

In any case, I would not phrase it as "Some critics claim..." Using "some critics" is what is termed a weasle word in wikipedia, and should be discouraged. If it is determined that a given blog author's opinions is worthy of mention, we should attribute his/her opinion directly. Phrase it as something like: "Conservative political blogger John H. Hinderaker has stated that the law is unconstitutional. He believes it violates the First Amendment." Blueboar (talk) 13:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blueboar, thanks for your response. I see your point, although I am not entirely convinced by your argument yet. One could view prominent political bloggers like Marshall or Hinderaker as general "political experts" (like regular opinion columnists in newspapers) whose opinions on general political matters are notable for that reason. There is little doubt that if one of them published an opinion piece in, say, the New York Times, voicing constitutional criticism of a particular law, it would be OK to use that as a source in a WP article. Is it really necessary for political figures, such as, say, prominent party officials, to have bona fide narrow technical expertise in a particular topic (say constitutional law or crime or gender issues) for referencing their expressed opinion in a WP article? To modify my original example, what if, again say Marshall or Hinderaker, had a column in their blog claiming that a particular law (say pertaining to the way government agencies disclose information about their operation) represents bad public policy because it undermines public accountability of the government? Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 14:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify my original comment for you as asked, I was thinking something along the lines of...You have a New York Times article that says, "Critics have accused X of Blah," and you also have blogs from notable pundits W, Y and Z, then you can use those blogs to cite the new sentence, "Critics, such as notable political pundits W, Y and Z, have accused X of Blah." Or something along those lines...Anyway, back to the matter still being discussed, I think that blogs will always remain a gray area. As with my first example, it's very easy with a book because it generally receives very few or no modifications from its original form, and it is that one form that is notable. If you throw notable blogs into this, I'd hate to see a runaway effect whereby everything the author now puts on his blog suddenly becomes a notable criticism. So I'll actually redact a bit of what I said originally, and declare that it's probably not a good idea to include information sourced only to blogs (or any primary source with dynamic content), even if the blog and its author are notable. As for the expert/non-expert thing, that only matters if you want to cite the author's claims as facts (see WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper)). It's always a reliable source for what the author has himself claimed, and the only issue is notability and relevance. I believe Blueboar's idea is still a good one in general though, but I'll replace "expert" with "notable for." That is, is the author of the blog notable for criticising politicians and laws. Are his criticisms generally noted by reliable sources? If so, then yes. The issue of whether this is the case, and whether it is relevant, I think is sufficiently fuzzy that it will always have to just be left to discussion on a case by case basis. Someguy1221 (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Yes, after thinking about it, I have reached more or less the same conclusion as what you say above. For the article in question (the Real ID Act) I decided to stay away from citing political blogs for the time being and to stick to less questionable sources where constitutional criticism is raised. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 20:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Imo, this guideline could be far more usefully handled and improved if it where a dedicated WP:MOS subguideline. The applicable policy (WP:V) appropriately handles the required minimum threshold, while this page could explain various scenarious in greater detail than a policy, including the ideal case, or how to proceed in the many suboptimal cases where high quality sources are not easily available etcpp. User:Dorftrottel 14:52, February 15, 2008

Reliable sources might contain quotes copied from extremist sources, or references to views that are extracted from those unreliable sources. Editors that are eager to quote, for instance, Hitler, and promote his views on jews, will be hampered by the fact that Mein Kampf will be considered an extremist (and as such unreliable) source. However, this people will easily find quotes from Mein Kampf, or a summary of the extremist views, in reliable sources. Apparently they would quote Hitler using reliable sources, though in fact they would abuse this reliable sources - that might have quoted Hitler within a completely different context - to escape (or work around) Wikipedia policy.

Now, of course the most easy thing to obstruct such an evident statement against extremist content will be to play dumb. Rudra, if phrasing is the only problem, you are invited to come up with a better phrase. Here I propose another phrasing:

Otherwise reliable sources should not be used to apply quotes or views derived or copied from such extremist sources in any other way.

Rokus01 (talk) 14:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, undesirable caveat:

• Mein Kampf can be quoted in the Wikipedia article on that book (see WP:V);
• A phrase in the following sense "Critic XYZ wrote: 'I don't agree with Hitler saying (quote from Mein Kampf) because of (reasons given by critic XYZ)'" would be perfectly admissible in the Wikipedia article on that critic, or in the Mein Kampf article (depending on notability and reliability of the critic etc). Whether or not it contains a Hitler quote or a paraphrase of such quote is not relevant at all. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Francis, it is not paraphrasing I refer to. I refer to sections of reliable sources that were copied wholesale from (or paraphrasing) extremist sources, and then being referred to in any article as a valid point of view "since the content could be found in reliable sources, being extremist or not". To this particular sections the same restrictions should apply as already agreed on with regard to the original extremist sources, since to the reader there would be no difference. Reliable sources are supposed not to contain extremist content, though involuntarily they might convey extremist content when quoting extremist sources. To the example of Mein Kampf this would mean, that no arguments of Hitler should be forwarded generically describing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, i.e. not without a reliable source that quote those Hitler arguments explicitly for this purpose. Because Mein Kampf remains an extremist source, whether or not quoted directly from the extremist source or indirectly from a reliable source, and should remain shunned except in articles devoted to the Hitler/Mein Kampf (in agreement with WP:V). Rokus01 (talk) 15:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another proposal to say the same in a better way, that everybody will understand (I hope):

To sections of reliable sources that quote or paraphrase extremist sources apply the same restrictions as to the extremist sources referred to.

Rokus01 (talk) 16:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "it is not paraphrasing I refer to". Exactly. We shouldn't need to be worrying about it being paraphrasing or exact quote (when embedded in another quote). It is irrelevant because there isn't, nor shouldn't be an impediment in the sense you seem to want, rules are strict enough as they are, and anyone gaming the system would be in violation of WP:POINT anyhow. See also WP:CREEP and WP:BEANS. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This 3RR thing is preposterous, since I made three different proposals to make myself clear and all edits were accompanied by TALK. This is hardly sterile edit warring, the spirit of the rule. And evaluating your answers, rephrasing was no luxury. Also, I did not engage in reverting the edits of someone else. To the contrary, my edits are being reverted - and a revert without TALK I consider close to vandalism. Don't try to intimidate.

Right, having said this, don't create an incident of abuse by playing dumb. This is a very serious issue, and I won't accept the excuse that you are not aware of Nazi POV pushing that has to be addressed. You can always point to another WP rule and clean your hands, and even accept a sourced reference to the Simon Wiesenthal Center for having Nazi POV popping up anywhere avoiding direct references to extremist sources, pretending this is of no concern to the WP:RS policy. However, if you think like this and also think it is worth an editwar, administrator intimidation and lousy answers, then consider it is you being disruptive.

1. So what are you actually saying? First you agree that your first answer was a misser. I answered you "it is not paraphrasing I refer to". You confirm this by saying "exactly", and continue in telling I should not worry about it being paraphrasing or exact quote??? Please refrain from reverting edits by playing dumb. It is very annoying to repeat myself: "it is not paraphrasing I refer to".
2. Second, you come up with the argument that using paraphrasing or exact quotes is irrelevant because there isn't, nor shouldn't be an impediment in the sense you seem to want. This means, that you think you could insert a reference to a quote of Hitler such as the objection of the modern pacifist, as truly Jewish in its effrontery as it is stupid in any article related to pacifists, jews and stupidity as long as the quote can be extracted from reliable sources, though you would otherwise restrict the use of this same quote the objection of the modern pacifist, as truly Jewish in its effrontery as it is stupid to articles related to Hitler, fascism and Mein Kampf? This would be sheer hypocrisy, and I insist you give a straightforward answer to this one.
3. Your third argument:rules are strict enough as they are, and anyone gaming the system would be in violation of WP:POINT anyhow. Indeed, there it says: Gaming the system means using Wikipedia policies and guidelines in bad faith, to deliberately thwart the aims of Wikipedia and the process of communal editorship. However, above you showed yourself the guidelines are not clear enough (quote: using paraphrasing or exact quotes is irrelevant because there isn't, nor shouldn't be an impediment in the sense you seem to want). In other words, the rules are not strict enough to prevent people gaming the system and such an additional caveat would be especially useful and necessary to you!
4. Fourth, you refer to WP:CREEP and WP:BEANS. I don't think to extrapolate a single procedural statement on using extremist sources, towards the indirect use of extremist sources, will be so much of a burden on proper WP procedure management. Moreover, since those rules are useful mostly in order to address bad editing behaviour, it would rather facilitate procedures by offering more clarity. And BEANS, well. Why don't you just look around, watch people gaming the system and go away with it by simulating a content dispute. Do you really think you'll have to teach those people something, or that they'll need a pretext to find a way for abusing WP policy? Please be serious, I wouldn't have forwarded this issue in the first place without some clear examples of this abuse.
5. Finally, I express my utter rejection of your methods to have it your way. Hopefully your name doesn't have anything to do with it, and bad adminship or unwillingness to talk sense either.

Rokus01 (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]