The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Should MOS:DEADNAME be updated to address dead-naming of transgender or non-binary individuals in articles about their previous works before their transition was made public, including in the infobox, lead, and credit sections? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 23:41, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option A: Previously published works should refer to individual using their preferred name after their transition (with a footnote explaining the name change).
• Option B: Previously published works should refer to individual using their preferred name after their transition (without a footnote explaining the name change).
• Option C: Previously published works should refer to individual using their name as credited in the work (with a footnote explaining the name change).
• Option D: Previously published works should refer to individual using their name as credited in the work (without a footnote explaining the name change).
• Option E: Previously published works should refer to individual using their preferred name after their transition first followed by a parenthetical containing the name as credited in the work.
• Option F: Previously published works should refer to individual using their name as credited in the work first followed by a parenthetical containing their preferred name after their transition.

While we ordinarily sometimes keep a person's name the same as the credit in the previous work such as a film when they have subsequently changed their name from something like marriage, there appear to be many considerations that are different for a transgender or non-binary person who has decided to use a different name. A discussion about how to handle Elliot Page's previous works is taking place on his talk page, and there was an RfC last year regarding The Wachowskis, which resulted in replacing references to "the Wachowski brothers" from prior works with "the Wachowskis" and including the previously credited name in a note. There were also discussions about Caitlyn Jenner and how to handle her previous athletic records several years ago when the dead-naming policy was being developed, and her record pages for her previous events still generally list her name as "Bruce Jenner".

• I am not sure what is the best approach, but I thought it may be useful to try to determine a consensus on the issue before working out specific language. Please feel free to remove/reword this RfC if it could done better or more specifically. Please also feel free to edit or correct any of my information above regarding previous discussions on this topic. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 23:41, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • EDIT #1: I apologize for not including parentheticals as an option (such as "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen Page)" or "Ellen Page (now Elliot Page)" or some similar formulation), and I have added those options based Onetwothreeip's request. It may be helpful to the closing admin if those who have already voted would explain if including the information in a parenthetical (or some other type of note) rather than a footnote would affect their view in the RfC. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 02:36, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • EDIT #2: I struck the word "ordinarily" from my initial description of the RfC based on the following discussion in the extended comments. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 06:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• It's entirely situational and we should simply rely on how reliable sources refer to these people, whether they are transgender or not. There are no particular reasons to treat transgender people any differently here. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:00, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B. The "Main biographical article" section at MOS:GENDERID should be changed to apply to all other articles too: "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources". Referring to an individual's deadname is harmful, and appreciating their request to use their preferred name is both simple and accurate. I'm not totally opposed to Option A if it's deemed necessary—specifically in cast lists, or for clarification if used in direct quotes (i.e. Juno (film) § Music)—though I personally believe readers can just click through to the individual's article if they're confused. – Rhain ☔ 00:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Referring to an individual's deadname is harmful" - that is quite a claim, and even if true, should not override the need for an encyclopedia to describe subjects of articles as they are documented, not as they might wish they were documented. There is an important principle at stake here: articles of any kind are written in the interests of the furthering the reader's understanding, not to accommodate the subject's personal feelings on how reliable sources have or have not documented them, however valid those feelings may be and however sympathetic we may be to them! Beorhtwulf (talk) 00:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • In my view, the related RfC that was closed here with the immortal words, don't be a dick, offers us more helpful and policy-compliant guidance than the observation that even if deadnaming is harmful, that fact should not override the need for an encyclopedia to describe subjects of articles as they are documented. We often go out of our way to avoid using the bigoted or dated labels applied in sources from a previous time, anyway, so I don't know why editors insist on hiding behind this particular fig leaf when confronted with an inconvenient identity. Newimpartial (talk) 00:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I wouldn't call it too extreme a claim; it's in the lead at Deadnaming, for starters. As for "articles of any kind are written in the interests of the furthering the reader's understanding": wouldn't updating articles to use the correct self-identification be the best way to further the reader's understanding of the topic? – Rhain ☔ 01:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • "wouldn't updating articles to use the correct self-identification be the best way to further the reader's understanding of the topic?" I agree that current self-identification should be preferred in general use, but when someone has previously been well-known by a particular name, ignoring the existence of that name can be harmful to readers' understanding. That's why I support option E. Sauronjim (talk) 00:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Honestly, we should look to IMDB on this as they have done it quite well. Former name not mentioned until/unless it's relevant (in the most recent situation, addressing the incongruity in acting credits). There is absolutely no reason for the deadname to be front and center as the first line of the article other than "well policy says...." We are not paper, we can be edited, even our policies. Insisting on forcing deadnames to the forefront is disrespectful at best, and extremely harmful at worst. Any time a trans person is outed as transgender, it is an opportunity for that individual to come to harm. We clearly can't ignore the deadname altogether due to the encyclopedic nature of what we are, but we can at least avoid triggering every transphobe who even casually glances at the article for half a second. 50.84.54.202 (talk) 01:25, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • We are generally talking here about public figures who were universally known by one name and understood to be one gender at some stage of their career, then themselves made an announcement that they wanted to be named and differently and have different pronouns applied, so the issue of outing does not apply. It might apply in the case where a person transitioned before they were a known public figure. Beorhtwulf (talk) 09:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The reader is certainly served by prominent mention that the subject of an article announced a gender identity at some stage of their life that doesn't correspond to what everyone understood about them during their earlier career or period of notability. I don't think anyone is disputing that. The issue at stake is whether we go back and change everything retrospectively, for example by asserting that the film Juno was starred in by a man named Elliot, and scrubbing all mention of "Ellen Page" on the grounds that it's deadnaming and might in some way hurt the subject of the article. I don't think the reader is served by introducing these kind of anachronisms, or by erasing names used by contemporaneous reliable sources. Beorhtwulf (talk) 09:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A as first choice, EDIT: Option E as second choice and Option B as third choice or Option B as second choice. Rhain suggests that readers who are confused can click through, but I think that articles should always make sense when read standalone (good for people with bad internet, reading on mirrors or printouts etc.) and I believe policy mostly supports this too. We shouldn't refer in Wikipedia's voice to a person by a name that they do not use—that is a BLP violation. But if a person was credited as something then it's important to record that information. ("The Wachowskis" is an edge case because it's not like they wouldn't be called that before their transitions.) The change in consensus from the Caitlyn Jenner case to the Wachowski case reflects, in part, the change in style guides in use by the Associated Press, newspapers, encyclopediae etc. which Wikipedia generally bases its style on. We should never be referring to Jenner as a man when she is not. This will cause understandable confusion when talking about male categories for sporting events, or when someone is familiar with only the deadname, so footnotes or text should be used to clarify. — Bilorv (talk) 00:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, I don't disagree with you at all regarding "articles should always make sense when read standalone", it's just a personal preference that deadnames should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. I'm still in full support of Option A if consensus heads that way. – Rhain ☔ 01:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Edited to include option E as second preference. — Bilorv (talk) 09:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option D. Refer to as credited and sourced at the time for that particular topic. This conforms to WP:TVCAST and WP:FILMCAST. The names are linked, redirects work, and further expansion about a basic name change in some other article is giving undue weight to something that really has nothing to do with that article. This has the added benefit that we don't have to go over every single mention in every other article and change anything. As to purported harm that the person is already notable and well-known under the old name so no harm can be done by Wikipedia mentioning an old name. This may not the be the case for non-notable people which is why they get extra consideration. Another issue for some films is if the person is in the starring cast, their name as credited will remain in the poster art in the infobox and that cannot be changed anyway. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Geraldo Perez, while it's understandable that matching up with the work's given cast list is important, I think it makes more sense to only note the discrepancy as an aside. As stated below, wording like "John Doe (casted as Jane Doe)" makes the distinction on actual name vs. listed name quite well. Perryprog (talk) 00:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or B unless the person has publicly, in a verifiable, reliable source stated that they have a specific preference. This is something that will likely evolve over time, as different members of the trans/non-binary community individually decide how they want to be credited, so the policy should be flexible to accomodate this. In either case, I think the default should be to use their preferred name, with a footnote explaining the name change where it makes sense to do so (for people with a long history under a particular name -- Elliot Page was the impetus for this RfC and this is a good example). MrAureliusR_Talk! 00:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C else Option A, I think for articles/templates that are specifically citing sources & awarding for their pre-transition gender (Best female lead actor etc), it makes sense to name as cited. While avoiding sensitivities around dead-naming is an important step, I feel making articles less confusing to the uninitiated reader does take precedence in certain situations. As such, that footnotes are to be included when it's specifically an award category in the subjects former gender. — IVORK _Talk 00:32, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D, though open to sparing use of footnotes if there is a need to mitigate risk of astonishment. The term "deadnaming" is emotive and POV here. It brings to mind some kind of bullying situation in which a trans person is deliberately taunted with the use of their former name, when all we are actually doing is describing the world as it is documented by reliable sources. It is an inevitability when dealing with biographical articles that not all reliable sources will describe people as they wish to be described. It is one thing to use a trans person's newly announced name and pronouns from the point of their announcement onward, but to go back and use them retrospectively to describe times when no one was using them will create preposterous situations, like Wikipedia denying that the film Juno was starred in by a clearly female lead known to everyone in the world as Ellen Page, and documented as such in all contemporary reliable sources, playing a clearly female character in a story about pregnancy. While no one should go out of their way to offend or belittle, our priority should always be to maintain credible and authoritative encyclopedic coverage of the topics we discuss, not to rewrite our articles to accommodate the feelings and preferences of their subjects. Beorhtwulf (talk) 00:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One would think that we had not had large, highly engaged RfCs in which the community expressed its consensus that DEADNAMING is a real concern for the WP editorial community and that some sort of balance of considerations, harm-minimization principle must apply. We have already agreed in MOS:GENDERID and MOS:DEADNAME to use present pronouns (universally) and present names (generally) in retrospective discussions, and your personal priorities simply will never override clearly-expressed community consensus. You should take solace, Beorhtwulf, in the fact that Elliot page also uses they/their pronouns as well as he/his, which can be used to minimize the risk of ASTONISHMENT in related articles. Newimpartial (talk) 00:48, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm agreed with the need to balance considerations, but it is not obvious that the preferences of the subject of an article about their name and pronouns should be an overriding consideration in some of the cases we are discussing. Beorhtwulf (talk) 10:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dead-naming is an emotive act, which is why we have guidelines and policies around it. There are many other policies that take into consideration the emotional impact of what is included in Wikipedia, especially for living people, and I think it's important that we do consider the real world impacts of our work here. I also think it's important to remember that not everyone may share the same views about what is "preposterous" or "clear". – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 00:58, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and that's why we are having the discussion. We should remember the average reader though, and avoid confusing them with the minority of editors who take a strong interest in the constantly shifting nuances and taboos that surround the topic of gender identity in 2020. Imagine for a moment a reader who sees the film Juno, and knows nothing whatsoever about its star or that person's recent name and gender announcement, made many years after the film came out. I maintain that they would be entirely justified in considering this to be a movie starring a woman playing a woman, and would be backed up in this by contemporaneous reliable sources, which talk about an actress called Ellen who performed her role with great skill or whatever. Wikipedia is here to enlighten, so should certainly say that in fact this person now asks that people use the pronouns 'he' or 'they' and goes by the name Elliot, but it should not pretend they have never been called Ellen, or that they were not universally understood to be a woman at the time Juno came out. It's this suggestion of retrospective revision of documented history that I'm saying is preposterous. Beorhtwulf (talk) 10:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stories about pregnancy are not inherently female stories and the character of Juno was not "clearly female". If Juno 2 came out next year revealing that the character later came out as nonbinary, it would mean that the first movie was also about a nonbinary person, not a "female character". 2601:14D:4180:F5A0:CD56:C843:5B95:949B (talk) 06:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your reply. I can only suggest we were watching two different movies, or we have somehow arrived at a very different understanding of what pregnancy is and who is capable of becoming pregnant. Beorhtwulf (talk) 10:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you have the impression that no Assigned Female At Birth nonbinary people can or do become pregnant, then I suggest that you spend your time becoming better-informed rather than opining from a standpoint of ignorance. Newimpartial (talk) 15:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option A/E followed by Option B, context depending. One suggestion for the footnote, by Jiiimbooh, is worth mentioning: On the articles for older work, why not write "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen)" at the first mention and in the cast list, and otherwise just "Elliot Page" (from this talk page discussion). This has the advantage of being more clear than phraseology like "formally known as", and correctly distinguishes the time frame of when an actor participated in a movie. It's also currently what's used in The Matrix's infobox for the directors. This seems to be the smallest adjustment from what's currently in the MOS, which only covers references within the person's own article—Options A and B would simply extend the current policy to include articles that reference the person as well. Perryprog (talk) 00:51, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  The parentheticals seem to be used commonly in prose and that may also be easier than using a footnote in places like the credits. For something like the infobox, I think a footnote would be the only option, although it could always have no note at all there and just include the name change in the credits or in the prose. I definitely think that there will still need to be discussions and local consensus after this RfC to determine some of these particulars. "Credited as" seems to make a lot more sense for transgender or non-binary people than "formally known as". – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I've decided to update my preference (which was B followed by A/E). I think a lot of the points that have brought up are very important, especially with respect to certain encyclopedic aspects (e.g., an article being able to stand on its own (in most cases)). I don't think there's much more I can say without being redundant of what other people have said. Perryprog (talk) 19:04, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Why not Elliot Page (then Ellen Page)? We can do this for anybody who has since changed their name, regardless of the reason. Onetwothreeip (talk) 01:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is why: "When a subject changes names as part of coming out as transgender, it is often impossible to continue to use that person's former name without misgendering them and thus causing harm". Changing names as part of coming out is different than, say, as part of marriage or divorce, and thus requires a different approach. – Rhain ☔ 01:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Rhain: It does not harm anybody to state either that "Ellen Page (now Elliot Page)" or "Elliot Page (then Ellen Page)" was an actor in a certain pre-2020 film. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

      Agreed. While it’s important to avoid offending trans/nonbinary people — intentionally or otherwise — it’s also important to avoid confusing our readers, and adding a clarification on this person’s previous name is part of that. I would lean towards "Elliot Page (then Ellen Page)". I should also note that the linked/quoted content above is an essay, not a policy or guideline. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:36, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

      What's been happening here (even aside from the fact that there is considerable debate about the harm argument, among editors and among off-site writers) is a frequent failure to distinguish between people not notable at all or until after their transition, from people notable before, during, and after theirs. For the latter category, it's a bare and inescapable fact of their existences as public figures that their old names are well known and regularly are recorded in sources that pre- and post-date their transition. That is simply not ever going to change. Not for subjects we're writing about now, and not for subjects not born yet who we'll be writing about in 2100. There is nothing WP or anyone else can do about this. Every proposal (and there have been many) on WP to just eliminate all mention of former names that date to within the notability period have simply gone nowhere. This clearly isn't going to change, even if we have come to more or less a consensus to treat pre-notability deadnames differently (depending on how well-covered they are in RS – we do sometimes include birth names, but do not use them otherwise), and to treat deadnames of non-notable people with even more circumspection.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Onetwothreeip, I don't think that would work for infoboxes but I really should have phrased the RfC as with or without a "note" rather than a "footnote" as that would also encompass parentheticals. I think that could be addressed in the wording for MOS:DEADNAME if the policy is changed. Would you agree with Option A if it included parentheticals rather than a footnote? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Wallyfromdilbert: Unfortunately a footnote means something very specific. I would agree with either "Ellen Page (now Elliot Page)" or "Elliot Page (then Ellen Page)", with my preference being the former. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A mainly, of course not for every occurrence of the name. In the case of actors, we could include the footnote next to the name on the infobox, in the lead section, and in their first mention in the Cast list, then go on without the footnote for following mentions. El Millo (talk) 01:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C followed by option D per Geraldo Perez and comments reiterated at Talk:Elliot Page. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• (edit conflict) Option C else Option D. As per reasoning of Beorhtwulf and Geraldo Perez, though I see no harm in a footnote. If something here is "harmful", it's accusing people of bigotry for the innocuous act of having a film's cast refer to an actor as they were actually credited on that film. Damien Linnane (talk) 01:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure where these accusations of bigotry came from. – Rhain ☔ 01:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it's been clearly implied. I don't want this conversation to go off tangent, so I can agree to disagree. Damien Linnane (talk) 02:14, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • As the creator of the RfC, it certainly has not been implied there, and I think it is probably best to not make accusations based on perceived implications. If we cannot bring a diff to support a specific accusation, then it is probably best to not make it in the first place. If anything is clear, it is that this is a contentious enough issue already. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 02:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • (edit conflict) I haven't seen a single person even hint at implying it. I assume that your contributions are in good faith, so why not extend the same attitude to others? Bringing it up in the first place is a detriment to this discussion, and implies that anybody who disagrees with you is accusing you of bigotry. But sure, agree to disagree. – Rhain ☔ 02:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • In retrospect bigotry was too harsh a word, though I was also referring to a general tone I first picked up on at the Elliot page talk page. I'm striking the comment. I agree with another editor who opined "Referring to an individual's deadname is harmful" is quite a claim. I think it's an extreme claim. Personally while I'm completely supportive of using his preferred name in the future, I see pretending it's been his name all along similar to something the Ministry of Truth would have done. What's next? Photo-shopping all the original film posters to remove his former name, and saying everyone who opposes rewriting history and copyright violation is harming people? Maybe I should try and AGF more, but when I read that my first impression is you're insinuating anyone who disagrees with you is a malicious person. It seemed like a cheap way to scare away other opinions, and yes, it's since occurred to me I did the same thing in return. I'm now thinking maybe that wasn't your intention after all. Apologies for upsetting anyone. I don't have anything more to say about this. Damien Linnane (talk) 07:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Maybe I should try and AGF more: this. Always this. And "Ministry of Truth" references (and slippery-slope arguments in general) tend not to communicate GF, as a rule. Newimpartial (talk) 08:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Damien Linnane, I really appreciate your explanation and apology. No hard feelings. We all should be careful with our words. Take care. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 08:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • My use of the word "harmful" was definitely from a place of explanation and clarification rather than accusation or insinuation, though I understand how you got that impression. I appreciate the explanation. – Rhain ☔ 14:20, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C followed by option A. With "deadnaming", it really depends on the individual. It seems a bit odd to lump up all trans/nonbinary people as being completely against their former name. However, I'm not disagreeing that it can be harmful but I also believe anyone can deem anything harmful so it should be irrelevant in the context of an encyclopaedic wiki. —Jonny Nixon (talk) 01:48, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E. Unless the credited name is changed subsequently, the credited name should be used. Gender expression may be retroactive, but name changes are moving forward from the date the change was announced. Preferred pronouns should obviously be updated, and certainly prose can be rewritten so as to reference the present name... but the credits should be listed in the filmography as they were presented in the work. As with pseudonyms, pen names, etc., it is generally listed as "{Preferred (Actual) Name} (credited as {Name as it appeared in work}). - Floydian ^τ _¢ 01:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A (but with parentheses) seems the best way to me. "Chosenname Smith" is how a trans person will be known to readers going forward, and that name refers to that person at any stage of their life. However, "Birthname Smith" is how they were identified in connection with a given past work, and is likely how they would be known to someone who only knows them through that work, so that article should clearly and explicitly make this connection for the reader the first time the person is named. For example, the article about Juno (film) might say that "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen Page) stars as the title character" and then refer to just "Page" or "Elliot Page" as appropriate in context. (Frankly, I'm not overly concerned about how an actor might feel about seeing their former name in a Wikipedia article about one of their old films like that, because I am hopeful they have better things to do with their time, and believe in treating adults like adults.) -Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• @Wallyfromdilbert: Please add Option E: "Credited Name (now Preferred Name)" and Option F: "Preferred Name (then Credited Name)" to the list of options. I would prefer Option E as standard, particularly for infoboxes and credits, but Option F can otherwise be used interchangeably and is more appropriate in certain instances. Biographical articles should generally use only the preferred name, except when identifying their previous name. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thank you for the suggestion! – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 02:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Wallyfromdilbert and Onetwothreeip:, while I'm a bit late, I was thinking it would be better to present the options with no indication on how it should be formatted. That is, two options for preferred name with/without an aside and two options for name as credited with/without an aside. Whether or not the "aside" should be a footnote, a parenthetical, or something else entirely can be decided later. Perryprog (talk) 03:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Perryprog, I agree that would have been a better format, and I initially intended to put just "note" and not "footnote" in the RfC, but I think that Onetwothreeip's additional two options is better now that so many people have already voted. I think that the specific wording of the change to the MOS:DEADNAME and whether it advises or mandates a particular style will have to probably have further discussion as well. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 03:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Wallyfromdilbert:, if I'm reading correctly, the Option E as suggested above by Onetwothreeip is actually the Option F in the top list, and vice versa.

• Option A or Option B, without a particular strong leaning for either. I largely believe that when it is relevant to make the note within prose, using the parenthetical "Name (then DeadName)" or "(credited as XYZ)", then further avoiding the formerly known name afterwards, is clear and concise language, and being as respectful as possible while still acknowledging the need to perhaps clarify a discrepancy between the credits of the film and the lived reality of the actor. Whether a footnote or a parenthetical is more appropriate is really a which specific location is this, prose vs infobox and etc, and what the exact language is, I don't think is the point of this RfC, so I'm not gonna hash that out. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I'm not opposed to Option E either. It feels no different to me than Option A, personally. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or Option E (equally good) - past RfCs and Wikipedia editor consensus is clearly against egregious use of deadnames, including when talking in the past tense about people who later came out. We must balance that with not surprising or confusing readers and ideally maintaining full comprehension in a single article. Gbear605 (talk) 02:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Notices: I've notified various talk pages relating to biography in general and published works, as well as Village Pump, and also listed this at WP:CENT. It's proven to be the case that thinly-attended RfCs that have anything to do with MOS:DEADNAME or MOS:GENDERID tend to result in renewed rather than reduced editorial strife. Also added Option F, so comments before this note may not reflect that option being listed.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• A, C, E, and F are all acceptable, depending on the context. Which will be preferable in a particular article (or running content within one, e.g. a list of award winner, etc.) will vary by the specific circumstances, and should be left to editorial discretion. (See Hoary's comment below providing examples of each.) Options B and D (and anything like them added later) are not acceptable, because WP's job is neither to rewrite history and falsify what sources record, nor to suppress information that a subject's name has changed. E and A would in most cases be preferable (prefer the current name, and E will usually be better than A by not making people have to dig for it). Two side points:
  1. Persons who were already public figures before their transition are not "harmed" by their former names being known; it is a given, fixed, precondition of their public-life existence, not something being "done to" them by our (or anyone else's) content.
  2. Non-notable people found in source citations and the like (e.g. Prof. Jim O'Foobar wrote a paper in 2001 and we cited it; they later changed name to Jane O'Foobar) are simply irrelevant: the purpose of names in citations is to identify works as-published so cited claims can be verified; the name on the work is not associable on its own with any particular person and their personal identity today; and trying to ascertain that a Prof. Jane O'Foobar at University X is in fact certain to be the same person credited as Jim O'Foobar on various old journal papers, would in fact be WP:OR (and quite likely run afoul of WP:OUTING and WP:BLPPRIV; see discussion below for details).
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC); revised: 04:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For followup comments from Perryprog, see the Extended comments subsection below.
• Option B as default with acknowledgment that a given individual may express a different preference about use of their former name (see Talk:Daniel M. Lavery), and then and only then should Wikipedia proceed differently, in accordance with their expressed preference. Avoiding harm to a living individual far outstrips any question of inconvenience of clicking through or printouts, etc. Innisfree987 (talk) 02:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C or D – we should not be retroactively changing content to present ahistorical or anachronistic content. It also will be hugely confusing because contemporaneous sourcing will use the former name. P.S. We did already hold WP:RfCs on this topic around the time of the Caitlin Jenner transition, and C or D was basically the consensus at that time as well. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • IJBall, would you be able to link to those RfCs? I think it would be helpful if we could actually read those, especially since the consensus for the Wachowskis appears to have been the opposite result. Thank you in advance. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 03:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, I don't remember. I think the general topic of those RfC's was MOS:IDENTITY. It was soon after the Caitlin Jenner transition, when it was decided that it would be inappropriate to change, say, the Olympics-related articles from "Bruce Jenner" to "Caitlin Jenner". But I don't even remember if the RfC forum was the MOS or one of the VP's... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• For straightforward cases (which will be most of them), option E, but if there's a good reason for it ("faith", "social conservatism", "common sense" etc not being good reasons), then option F; if there's some complexity (more than two names?) that would make a parenthesis more distracting than a footnote, then option A, but if there's a good reason for it, then option C. -- Hoary (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option F or C in most cases, but for example Jan Morris (formerly James, who just died, several decades after her change) was able to use the new name in later editions of her books, so A or E would be fine/better. But that won't be possible eg for film credits in most cases. Johnbod (talk) 03:08, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I would say that option E is preferable. C, D and F are unacceptable, as they treat a deadname as primary. My issue with A and especially B is that they inhibit reader understanding. If you only know of "Ellen" Page, having to dig through a footnote or having no explanation of who Elliott is will mislead the reader. This already happens in the case of actors who are credited differently in some productions - there is a note as to the name they were credited under. VanIsaac_WS^cont 03:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C or F but also leaning towards Option D: A piece of work will feature a person's credited name at that time, and we should reflect that in the article's infobox, lead, and cast section as to what the credits state. We can then aid readers with the use of footnotes or parenthesis to explain to them the name the person is now known by. However, I am leaning towards option D in the sense that redirects can handle this change and (while vastly different in a person's intent), is not that dissimilar from a person using a maiden name and then a married name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A, B or E (preferring B) EDIT: Option B by default, but A or E in the specific case of cast credits. - If we imagine what kind of encyclopedia articles would be written 50 or 100 years after the fact, when the person in question was dead and there would be no further changes to their biographical information, those articles would consistently use a post-transition name, even when discussing events from prior to transition. That's how we treat historical figures with any other kinds of name changes-- their final name is usually just "their name." (Not just for married people -- consider Toussaint Louverture, who adopted that last name in 1793 at age 50.) It's only because Wikipedia is to up-to-the-minute on top of things that we end up with so much encyclopedic content about "current events," and sources contemporaneous with the events being described. I'd never write an article on an 18thC personage by scrupulously matching how they were described in the 18thC press. I think we should strive to write the articles that a historian would write long after the fact -- and that means using a new name, consistently, throughout. If someone was notable under a prior name, some record of that name should exist on their biography page, but there's no need to plaster that name everywhere. After all, people looking up an encyclopedia about a movie are there to *learn new things* about that movie-- why shouldn't they learn about an actor's name? From the rationale of "write the encyclopedia as if we had the benefit of historic hindsight," I prefer Option B, since anyone confused by the new name can always click to the person's biography article to get clarification, but would also accept A or E. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 03:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The IP user below at 2601:14D:4180:F5A0:CD56:C843:5B95:949B persuaded me that cast credits are a distinct kind of case, and I imagine that even in far-future encyclopedias cast lists would take the form of Nicolas Cage as Brad's Bud (credited as Nicolas Coppola). So, I support including the former name in this way, for *all* cases where the article name does not match the credited name. But, any other use should be Option B-- just the preferred name, wikilinked so people can get clarity through their article if needed-- in the prose for movie and TV articles, and in list like Caitlyn Jenner's olympic medals. People may indeed be surprised in some cases to see, eg, Jenner winning a "men's" medal-- luckily, they are already reading an encyclopedia, where they can continue to read additional information to find out more. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 06:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  We are not writing for 24th century readers, but for 21st century ones. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I like your reasoning here very much. Look at the big picture and how the article would be presented from a completely neutral, omnipotent perspective. We have Genghis Khan, not Temüjin. But by that very same logic, is option B not a bad choice? Option B would be to say that the new name should be mentioned, and only ever the new name. But the great Khan's article does indeed mention his birth name. Any woman who took her husband's name on being married mentions her name at birth. The Toussaint Louverture article you linked mentions his birth name as well. The name used most continuously should indeed be their final known-as name, but at the top of an article should always be any names by which they have been known in brackets, and in a cast credits on the article for something they starred in, the credited name should be included in brackets. Hence, option E -- Sauronjim (talk) 06:22, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Any except B - Any policy that forbids a notable name from being mentioned on wikipedia is bad policy. Full stop. It would have disasterous results long term for readers. Imagine reading about Caitlyn Jenner 100 years from now without any mention of Bruce. A reader would be very confused about how Caitlyn won medals in Male Olympic events and worse would not know to search for information about Bruce Jenner to see how contemporary sources covered their Olympic accomplishments. We are here for the readers, not the editors Slywriter (talk) 03:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but this rules out option D as well, no? Awoma (talk) 09:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

D, while less than ideal, would still allow a Bruce Jenner mention in an article to wiki link to Caitlyn Jenner preserving the connection. DB takes a sledgehammer to history for the sake of editor's feelings, something we pointedly ignore in nearly every other realm of wikipedia Slywriter (talk)

Did you mean to say here that B takes a sledgehammer to history? Beorhtwulf (talk) 13:25, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, Thanks Slywriter (talk)

• Option A, B or E: Use current name unless the person has indicated another preference. Regarding parentheticals or footnotes, use either in situations where the added context adds to understanding for reader (which of the two should be based on what makes sense for where they are placed (don't add long parentheticals mid-prose that break flow, avoid them in general in infoboxes, etc)). While we should give context for outdated understandings where that helps reader understanding (a reader might wonder why a man is playing a female role in a film or why he won a "best actress" award), we cannot write as if that outdated understanding still holds true just because we are writing about past events.--Alexandra^IDV 03:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A as first choice, per Bilorv's argument. We should always prioritize accessibility for the reader. feminist (talk) | free Hong Kong 03:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A, B, or E, depending on notability. We should use people's preferred names when possible, but we should also make sure that it's clear what person the name is referring to. Rarely it may be best to include a former name in parentheses (for instance, if a name change is very recent or not well-publicized) to avoid confusion. However, including it in parentheses is unnecessary and potentially harmful if the actor is well-enough-known under their changed name, and in such a case it would be best to include the deadname only in a footnote or not at all. SreySros (talk) 04:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or E While I would love to not have the deadname referenced at all, the fact is that when it comes to older work, some people will need that information to understand why a male actor was playing a woman, as cross-gender casting is nearly nonexistant except for intentional attempts at comedy. Also I personally hate that all these options have the phrase "preferred name," only because a trans person's new name isn't "preferred," it's their actual ... name. -- spazure (contribs) 04:39, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  A transgender person's name after they come out publicly is still also generally their "preferred" name. While I understand your point that it is also their actual name, I was trying to use the most neutral terminology possible. I also wanted to avoid ambiguity and be inclusive of an individual who may come out as trangender or non-binary with a particular public or stage name but has a different privately-used name they consider their "actual" name but may never be credited as, as well as any ambiguity from other interpretations of what the term "actual" means (as opposed to "legal" or "public" or "most widely used in reliable sources"). – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:48, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Eh it's only a tangentially related nitpick anyway. As to the main topic at hand, as long as the correct and current name is in the forefront and the older name(s) are used only when necessary (i.e. acting credits), I think we'll reach a good middle ground between staying accurate and being respectful. -- spazure (contribs) 06:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  This seems like an area where being nitpicky is not necessarily a bad idea, given the strong emotions all around regarding word choices. Please don't ever hesitate to let me know if I can improve the words I use especially regarding how to talk about people. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 08:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, my issue is that I'm coming from a place of strong emotions and trying to be as level headed and logical in related talk spaces as I can be -- though the jury is still out as to how good a job I am doing in that regard. In general, trans folk tend to bristle at hearing the phrases "preferred pronouns" and "preferred name" because the word "preferred" tends to make it sound like our names and pronouns are optional.

  At the end of the day, though, intent matters and I can clearly see the goal here is to be respectful in the main article and in anything linking to it. This Rfc is absolutely giving us a chance to discuss and come up with the best way in which to do that. Thank you for setting it up. I knew something had to be done -- I just didn't know where to start. I'm sure I wasn't alone in this. -- spazure (contribs) 19:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I think your comment was very level-headed and logical, and so thank for your that additional information. I will try to be more careful with the term "preferred name". – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 20:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option A or B preferred, option E acceptable: These options are the most consistent with MOS:GENDERID and WP:BLP in my opinion. Kaldari (talk) 04:59, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or Option E, but more so: I would suggest a site-wide policy - not just a MOS:DEADNAME policy - that within the "Cast" section or within an infobox, any film credit which doesn't match the name on the actor's Wikipedia article should be treated this way, with either a footnote or a parenthetical. For example, the director of The Birds II is credited as Rick Rosenthal (as Alan Smithee), and one of the actors in Fast Times at Ridgemont High is listed as Nicolas Cage as Brad's Bud (credited as Nicolas Coppola) - though it's worth noting, as someone said down in the Extended Discussion, that this isn't universally applied and many screen credits are in fact reproduced incorrectly here. I think everyone would agree that a reader who saw Nicolas Coppola as Brad's Bud and clicked through to find that they were redirected to Nicolas Cage would be surprised by that. (However, the text of the article outside of the "Cast" section or infobox should use only the name matching the Wikipedia article; the Fast Times article says - correctly - ...the film marks early appearances by several actors who later became stars, including Nicolas Cage....) I recognize the special weight that deadnames have in the trans/NB community (of which I am a member, not that that gives me any special right to speak on anyone else's behalf), and I would not support expanding this policy beyond the domain of film and television, but screen credits are an odd bird. SAG, the DGA, the WGA, and other stakeholders have spent a century hashing out crediting policies, down to the difference between "[Writer] and [Writer]" versus "[Writer] & [Writer]", and the precise name used in the credits carries particular weight. The frustrating truth is that the very public nature of an actor's post-fame transition means that some of the usual courtesies just don't really work very well, and I think this is one of those cases. 2601:14D:4180:F5A0:CD56:C843:5B95:949B (talk) 05:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this is very well-said, and does a good job of addressing the peculiarities of cast credits as opposed to other kinds of references to names. You've persuaded me to change my own preference. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 06:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A, B, or E, depending on context, clarity, ease of use, etc. Claims that using someone's new name in an article about old work constitutes "retroactively changing content" are a red herring. Wikipedia is here to provide information to its readers; the information the readers are seeking is more likely to be "which actor played Juno in Juno?", not "what text appeared on the screen in the credits of Juno?" That first question has an answer, and the answer to that question is a person who has a name, and his name is Elliot. AJD (talk) 07:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• ACEF are all fine, depending on context. As per SMcCandlish, the B and D options are unsuitable as they are attempts at changing what is already established in print and public awareness. Wikipedia is here to provide facts, not hide them. Binksternet (talk) 05:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C, because that is what matches the credits, is what matches the character they were playing or what they accomplished, and is what appears in essentially all of the article's sources, being in the context of that particular work or event. This also matches WP:TVCAST and WP:FILMCAST, which are also guidelines. The footnote then explains that their name changed, thus showing both names and who they are now, and forestalls drive-by attempts to "fix" it. ("The Wachowskis" is a special case since "Wachowskis" is gender-neutral; it is not a helpful guide to other cases.) Strongly oppose Option B as leading to confusing results, like why someone named Caitlyn Jenner won medals in men's sports, or why someone named Elliot Page starred in a movie as a pregnant girl. Option A is almost as bad for the same reasons. We are not supposed to WP:ASTONISH readers. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see absolutely no reason why a nonbinary actor cannot play the part of a "pregnant girl" - I think you are taking ciscasting requirements a little bit too far, if you find that ASTONISHing. :p
  • Also, TVCAST and FILMCAST support the use of the COMMONNAME, which in this case is the current one. So those guidelines offer less support to Option C than you here imply. Newimpartial (talk) 06:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see that you still view the very new name of a transgender person as the common name as opposed to the name that they have been known by for significantly longer. Per a different discussion, we've been over why you feel that way. But the general public does not know Page by their new name. The Internet is not what is typically called "the general public." Many, likely most, people still do not yet know that Page has come out as transgender, which is why editors at Page's talk page have suggested using singular they throughout the article instead of masculine pronouns. Well that, and because Page has stated that using singular they for them is fine. So I disagree that newer sources using Page's new name automatically means that the new name is now the common name. WP:NAMECHANGES does not state that newer sources using the new name means that the new name is now the common name. The reason we are going with the new name is because it's what newer sources are using out of respect for Page. We follow their lead. And those newer sources have to use Page's former name in addition to the new name just so people know who they are talking about. Why is that? It's because the former name is currently the most common/recognizable.

All that stated, I accept that editors disagree when it comes to the WP:Common name policy in cases such as these. It's clear by this 2013 Chelsea Manning move request that editors were divided then, too, on interpretations of the WP:Common name policy. And although the closer of that move request stated that "[t]he core of the debate comes down to differing interpretations of WP:COMMONNAME, part of our policy on article titles", that "[b]oth sides cite COMMONNAME as supporting their positions: those supporting the move see the intent of the policy as 'what do the reliable sources use (now)?' and those opposing the move view it as 'what name does the average person recognize?'" and that "[b]oth of these interpretations are reasonable", he the closer came down on the side that viewed "Chelsea Manning" as the common name. And yet, because the former name was so recognizable (and still is), he the closer suggested a compromise. Similarly, WP:Common name does recognize that there can be more than one common name. It states, "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." In this case, the previous name is a problem for obvious reasons. But in another high-profile case, when the Bruce Jenner article was moved to Caitlyn Jenner, the supporters used MOS:IDENTITY as an argument to move the article, while the opposers used the WP:Common name policy as an argument for not moving the article. So, yeah, I suspect that different interpretations of the WP:Common name policy will persist on this matter unless it's reworded one way or the other. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following claim seems odd to me: But the general public does not know Page by their new name. The Internet is not what is typically called "the general public." The Elliot Page trans coming out story is scarcely confined to The Internet - it has been covered extensively on broadcast and print media as well. I'm not saying we shouldn't anticipate the ASTONISHMENT of those who know Page from Netflix and don't follow the news, but in this particular case the magnitude of coverage and recognition of the new name has itself been astonishing.

Also, it has been a long time since Chelsea Manning's coming out, and there is the evidence of repeated RfCs and article-level editing practices showing that the community does now treat the new name as the COMMONNAME as soon as it is reliably sourced. But I suspect some kind of underlying metaphysical difference means we will never agree on this as a matter of principle. Newimpartial (talk) 15:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Saying that the general public knows Page by this very new name and that this very new name is Page's common name is what is odd to me. But I've already been over why above. I've been at Wikipedia for a long time and have seen common name discussions regarding people, businesses and the like, and people usually argue that the very new name is not the common name. The only times I have seen people argue that the very new name is the common name is in cases concerning transgender people. Manning's coming out wasn't that long ago, but it is the case that a lot has changed with respect to transgender visibility and how the world treats transgender topics since then. I brought up Manning to show that, even back then, people disagreed about whether or not the very new name could be the common name. This isn't about a metaphysical difference since this isn't about what is real and what isn't. But it is correct that you and I will never agree that the very new name can be the common name over the significantly more recognizable name. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:GENDERID says "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources", while WP:NAMECHANGES says "we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match" and WP:SPNC says "The determination of how much extra weight should be given to more recent sources is guided by the likelihood the new name is going to stick – while Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, it needs to be unavoidable that the new name will soon be the most common name". Do you genuinely think that reliable sources are going to continue to call Elliot Page "Ellen"? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:56, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:GENDERID is not about article titles. And I don't need to be told what any of these pages state. I was clear about my argument regarding the WP:Common name policy. I never argued anything like "reliable sources are going to continue to call Elliot Page 'Ellen'." What I stated was "[the] newer sources have to use Page's former name in addition to the new name just so people know who they are talking about. Why is that? It's because the former name is currently the most common/recognizable." Once the new name is more recognizable, they won't have to state "formerly known as Ellen Page" or similar. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:59, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And yet you think we should use two options that would ignore those reliable sources as well as provide no information about the name change? Weird. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 05:07, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that I never argued that, it is weird indeed. If you are referring to me choosing options C and F in this RfC, my vote does not conflict with anything I stated above. It does not conflict with MOS:GENDERID or the WP:Common name policy. If it did, the options I chose would not be options. An RfC like this can't override MOS:GENDERID or the WP:Common name policy. We have MOS:GENDERID and we still do what we do for articles regarding Caitlyn Jenner's Olympic career, as you very well know. You can dislike my vote all you want to, but you will not be hassling me about it. I kept it brief for two reasons: Others have already made the points for me, and I did not want to be hassled. I'm not interested in your need to argue just to argue. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:21, 5 December 2020 (UTC) Tweaked post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Furthermore, Option C comes with "a footnote explaining the name change" and Option F comes with "a parenthetical containing their preferred name after their transition." So I don't know what the hell you are talking about by stating "provide no information about the name change." Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option C or F, ie as credited in the work which I believe should remain entire and intact as a whole, with an explanation of their later status and name. Captainllama (talk) 06:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B or E depending on context. In most situations, in prose, there should generally not be a reference to a previous name ("Elliot Page stars as the title character" or "The ensemble cast includes Elliot Page"). If a subject won an award, held elected office, or did something similarly official under a previous name, there should be one parenthetical recognizing the name used at the time of the event ("1976 Decathlon gold medalist Catilyn Jenner (competing as Bruce Jenner"). In a list of award winners, or officeholders ("serving as...") I also would prefer a parenthetical. Also parentheticals are easier for readability than footnotes. --Enos733 (talk) 06:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E or A, on the first use for that film/show/competition/etc. This keeps it clear to the reader their status in that work while still respecting their name at present. For example, as another comment provided, "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen Page)" is a possible use. Of course, writing the article in a way to minimize the need for this would be best. However, in cases where that is not possible, I suggest this method. AAces17 (talk) 06:56, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or Option E. There are two crucial pieces of information here. One is the individual's preferred name, and one is how they are credited or named in reliable sources. Any option which loses one or other piece of information must be avoided, so the question is over priority. I think the individual's preferred name should take priority, and note this lines up with the wordings in WP:DEADNAME. Something like "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen Page)" or "Elliot Page" with a footnote saying "credited as Ellen Page" would be ideal. Awoma (talk) 08:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A is the cleanest way to do this in a way that supports WP:FILMCAST, although I think we do need to be mindful about accessibility of footnotes. My gut instinct is they're not too friendly with screenreaders. Best, Darren-M talk 08:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Darren-M, footnotes seem to work fine with VoiceOver—I checked just now, and I didn't have any trouble navigating them. Perryprog (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E, as first choice, option A, as second - we need to follow sources, reduce confusion, and minimise harm. In my view, these are the two options that best do that. They probably don't do the last flawlessly, but any other options fail the first two needs to a far greater level. In that sense, they're the best compromise we have available. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E but only in a cast/credits section. I'm not a fan of unnecessary footnotes and a notes section shouldn't be needed for a single comment that can be parenthetical. Reywas92^Talk 09:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C. Works are a historical object that was true at that specific point in time. Sidestepping the non-binary individuals question for a second, if someone else gets married or changes their name, we still wouldn't use the updated name in previous works and if needed we note that in the articles. The same should be true here. Elliot Page did not appear in X-men, but rather a female Ellen Page. That distinction is pretty significant to the movie, as the movie did not have transgender representation, did not use a male actor to portray a female character, and did not change a female characters in the comics into a male character in the movie. We shouldn't expect readers to have to read a complete biography of every person who appeared in a film, to make sure that how they are represented in a specific film article is factual correct to how they were back then. In Elliot Page own article, use their preferred style of course. --Gonnym (talk) 09:58, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Isn't it better to be consistent, or am I misunderstanding the proposal? i.e. refer to the person by whatever name the article title is, regardless of what name the work (movie, academic paper, whatever) was credited under. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I think the issue is the difference in what people believe is "consistent". For example, some people have argued that it is better to be "consistent" between the Wikipedia article and the film's credits at the time of release. It seems like you may be saying that Option B is the most consistent in your view? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 10:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This would not be a policy affecting an individual's own page, but other pages referencing them. For example, Juno's cast section currently lists Elliot Page as playing Juno, though he is credited in the film under his former name (and all contemporaneous sources on the film use this former name). This issue has come to prominence following Page coming out as transgender yesterday. Awoma (talk) 10:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option B using Option E where needed to avoid confusion. The point of a credit is to identify the person who performed the action/role. That person is identified by their current name. I can see that there may exist circumstances where using the current name would not convey information as simply as required, so rather than using a footnote this should be solved as a parenthetical much like IMDB does when someone is credited using a different version of their name. e.g. Samuel L. Jackson (As Sam Jackson). SPACKlick (talk) 10:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Some combination of Option A and Option B, as an interim solution, until the publishing industry catches up with this issue and develops relevant standards. I should say that in cases of doubt we should probably try to see how the author in question cites their earlier work, and take our cues from there. Nsk92 (talk) 11:20, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D followed by Option C. Wikipedia is not in the business of revisionism. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C is the correct answer. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B, but Option E may be appropriate in some circumstances, such as credits, as defaults. We should not have a hard-and-fast rule on this but rather be flexible and able to adapt to different circumstances, but when we cannot agree or there is no consensus, these are the most respectful options. SportingFlyer T·C 13:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Also, I'm not firmly opposed to Option A, but I think it's more awkward. SportingFlyer T·C 13:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option B It's my understanding that the trans, and more widely queer, community considers deadnames part of personal medical history. Like any medical detail made public by a notable person, it is relevant in their life and therefore will receive coverage in their bio, but it is rarely relevant to their body of work. Mentioning an actor's name in the capacity of a performance is talking about a person, not a screen credit, and should refer to the person. And, let's look at it this way: in the UK, Hilary and Leslie are male names, while in the U.S. they are female names. I can't say I've seen any confused questions at the Hilary Benn / Hillary Clinton, Les Dennis / Leslie Caron talkpages, so that argument holds no water. Kingsif (talk) 13:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely agree that there is no issue with male/female names. Sufficiently many people have names atypical of their gender that this wouldn't cause confusion. However, leaving out key information present in the sources surely would? When every article about a film's production, every review of the film, and indeed the credits of the film itself, make reference to a certain name, which wikipedia completely omits, we demand too much of the reader to do the detective work in figuring out what has happened - we should just tell them. Awoma (talk) 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Awoma: Presumably those articles and reviews also use incorrect pronouns. We're not going to unnecessarily repeat either. When listing credits, list credits, but when talking about a person, just use their name. It's really simple. Kingsif (talk) 15:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they would be using incorrect pronouns in this instance, thus making it even less clear that they are referring to the same person that wikipedia is. If we're (rightly) using different name and pronouns to the sources, clarity needs to be given to the reader to understand that the apparently two separate people are in fact one and the same. It doesn't need to be much - "credited as" would do it. Awoma (talk) 15:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I was of the thinking that the "Cast" section would still use the name as-credited, but with this comment you've convinced me we should use the actual name for both (and consequently the dead name for neither). Seeing a name different to that of the source in the cast list section of an article would clue readers in to being aware that while a review may say X is played by Y, the cast list says X is played by Z, so when Z is mentioned in the rest of the article it is the same person as Y, but a different name.

And before it gets mentioned, we also have no requirement to match IMDb - their "(credited as)" comes from two reasons: 1. no actor can have more than one profile, all profiles have only one name (no space for explanation on a profile re. different names - bios have that space), and 2. legal responsibilities across credits for all roles where there can be important reasons pseudonyms were used, something that Wikipedia doesn't have. Nothing about not being able to know a credit with a different name is referring to the same person; with acting in particular, for those without vision loss it's quite obvious. We should also think about how we do treat psuedonyms: if Joe Smith directed a film under a pseudonym but there were no sources discussing the significance of the credit being not his real name, we would not include it for lack of significance. If Elliot Page starred in a film under an incorrect name and there is no source discussing why, the name that doesn't get mentioned is the one that is not the actor's real name. Kingsif (talk) 15:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That I would disagree with. I think a lot of editors overestimate how the average reader engages with WP. They aren't looking at sources. Clarity for the reader is of utmost importance. In a cast list it should the person's linked actual name followed by (credited as [whatever name is used in credits]). That way the name used in the credits matches contemporaneous sources but the person's actual name is respected and the reader can click over to the person's article under their actual name to understand any apparent discrepancy. Capeo (talk) 23:32, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Hilary can be either a male or female name in both the UK and USA. Leslie is a male name in both countries, but a female name only in the USA (the female version in the UK is Lesley). It would be blatantly ludicrous, in my opinion, to credit someone with a clearly male name (and most names are clearly one gender or the other) playing a clearly female character (or vice versa). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:09, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it would be blatantly ludicrous to try and argue that all names have irrevocable gender. Or have you never watched Scrubs. Kingsif (talk) 15:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt we're blowing too many minds with references to Alice Cooper or Michael Learned. If someone sees a name they read as one gender playing a character they read as another, they'll probably just think "oh... ok" and go about their business. Awoma (talk) 15:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Nobody is confused with a Glenn Close or a Jamie Lee Curtis (three "male" names!) appearance next to that credit, and if your argument is that some people might think they were "being fooled" by deliberate use of a name then that response is often known as bigotry. Any argument that "most Wikipedia readers will be so confused the article won't make sense when they see a more traditionally one-gender name next to an other-gender role in a cast list" is completely ridiculous. Either they don't know who the actor is and just go "well I guess they have a weird name", or they click through to the bio and find out, or, most likely, they do know about the actor and it's a non-issue. Kingsif (talk) 15:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh come on, Jamie and Lee are both commonly used as women's names as well as men's (in fact, I would suggest that these days Jamie is more commonly used as a woman's name than a man's). Glenn and Michael are highly unusual for a woman. And it may surprise you to learn it, but Alice isn't his real name (and he's not an actor)! And no, I have never watched Scrubs. My point stands. A person should be credited should be credited using the name they used when they played the role. And I really would advise you not to imply that another editor is a bigot because they have a different opinion from you. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've never met a woman called Jamie, strange. The Glenn and Michael (I have actually met a woman called Michael, which shows how flimsy such opinions on popularity and gender of names are) examples were exactly the point: unusual, but nobody questions it. A person is credited as they were in the film, but guess what, a Wikipedia article's prose isn't a list of credits, it's a longstanding encyclopedia entry. I didn't imply any editor was a bigot; I didn't intend to and I read back over my comment to clarify - I was clearly saying that basing an argument on a "some people" audience being angry doesn't stand because they would more likely be bigoted if someone else's name angers them; I didn't even say that you or any editor was making such an argument. Give it a break, you can't try to deflect valid points by crying wolf on not being called a bigot. Kingsif (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option F seems like the best option at the moment. Some Dude From North Carolina^{wanna talk?} 14:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C or D' - I'm not sure you need a footnote given that if you click their name you'll be taken to their page where it will explain it to you. I don't believe in changing names from what was credited. To be clear, I'm only referring to the pages for those works, not the page for the person themselves, which should be changed to reflect their current name (even when discussing previous works). Given the recent situation with Elliot Page, he was credited as Ellen Page for decades and numerous works. Even if Elliot always went by Elliot off camera, they had their credit listed as "Ellen". This would be the same if someone chose to list their name as "Tim" or "Timmy" for a few films, instead of "Timothy". Those film pages would still say "Tim" or "Timmy", but the link would go to a Timothy Smith. If the studios that produced these works went back and changed the credits of all their products to reflect the new name, then I would say yes, change it on the pages.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C or D. Where an individual is notable before their transition, we should use their name as it appeared at the time. It's a simple fact that Bruce Jenner won a Gold Medal at the 1976 Olympics and then transitioned later in life and that Ellen Page appeared in Inception and later transitioned. I'm not opposed to the use of a footnote, but it seems unnecessary given that we can link to the article. -- Calidum 15:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  It's a simple fact that Bruce Jenner won a Gold Medal at the 1976 Olympics and then transitioned later in life and that Ellen Page appeared in Inception – this is wrong. I know this isn't intentional (@Calidum:), but it's wrong, and a little offensive. Caitlyn Jenner is a former Olympian who competed under an incorrect name. Elliot Page appeared in Inception with a credit under an incorrect name. As soon as someone tells you their name, any other name you knew them by is not just an "alternative name", it is categorically incorrect. Nobody knows their own name better than themself. Not their parents, an Olympic title, a film credit, or a bunch of people on Wikipedia for that matter. Kingsif (talk) 15:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  "Incorrect" or not (IMO "undiscovered" is a better term), in 1976 a male named Bruce Jenner won the Gold, and in 2010 a female named Ellen Page starred in Inception. We can do our best to explain that both people no longer identify as those genders or under those names, but we are not here to right great wrongs. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 16:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Oh, but I strongly suspect that you are. Newimpartial (talk) 16:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Floydian: No, in 1976 a woman won the gold; in 2010 a person who uses he/they pronouns starred in Inception. Maybe realizing that should be your first hurdle. It is not righting great wrongs to write someone's name and gender correctly, we can do it for everyone else. Kingsif (talk) 16:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Your mileage may vary. As was mentioned in another comment, this whole deadnaming thing is entirely confined to a subculture of society, whereas our encyclopedia is written the entirety of society. Sure, write their CURRENT name correctly. Then note that they A) went by another name previously, or B) were credited under another name. This is not being a dick, this is not being insulting, this is stating the facts. It is not my hurdle to become a revisionist and apply announcements retroactively. I won't further address this as you are entitled to your opinion and I mine. What I would like addressed is a comment one of you made below: "deliberately referring to someone by a name they have told you not to use". We'd need a source for each instance of this. A simple announcement of "I am {insert name}" is not being told not to use their previous name in historical references. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 19:06, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Just to address this whole deadnaming thing is entirely confined to a subculture of society, I live in a jurisdiction (Canada, and don't you as well?) where deadnaming someone would be contrary to rights guaranteed in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and can subject the person or organization doing so to a human rights complaint or other legal sanction. I don't believe, however, that Canadians in general constitute a subculture. Newimpartial (talk) 19:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  As audacious as it is, I hold the Jordan Peterson viewpoint that my speech cannot be compelled. Bill C-16 and the charter regard discrimination, which isn't applicable to this. The passing of Bill C-16 by the government isn't a statement made by Canadians. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 19:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I am not saying that deadnaming on this Talk page would be in violation of Canadian law (since it isn't under Canadian jurisdiction); it would be a WP:CIVIL violation. But in Ontario at least discrimination is a fairly broad concept, and misgendering is a form of discrimination. Similar laws apply to the vast majority of Canadians; the federal law was a laggard in this respect. But by all means, take your legal advice from a Jungian psychologist. Feelz over reals, amirite? 19:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

  Some of these comments are getting quite unrelated to this discussion, but since we're here, let's continue with the outreach and trans-sensitive education. I promise you, it is about a decade too late to still genuinely believe that this whole deadnaming thing is entirely confined to a subculture of society, unless you define "not assholes" as that subculture of society. The only average Wikipedia reader I can imagine objecting to handling the topic in a person-sensitive manner are those who think they have some right to decide someone else's name and be offended when that individual disagrees with them. And frankly, I only care what those people think when they're willing to learn the errors of those thoughts. Oh god, we should have a Jordan Peterson klaxon. Really? Sure, you have a right to call someone whatever you want, but that person has the right to sue your ass, and the Canadian government (whether you think their laws are representative of your opninion or not) has the right to fine you. Nobody can make you say anything you don't want to, but 1. if what you say is offensive there will be consequences, and 2. using that basis of free will as an argument specifically to say you're not necessarily in the wrong for going out of your way to say something harmful is perverse. "Don't be a dick" isn't just a Wikipedia mantra, it's how most well-adjusted adults avoid being punched in the face. Kingsif (talk) 20:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I am concerned about the direction this discussion is going, especially in relation to WP:NLT. Can we cool it down a bit? —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:43, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I hope it's clear there are NLT, but the example of, here, Canada (not the only country, obviously) is being used to say that just because someone can say whatever they want doesn't make it right, and some countries have codified that in law to indicate that it is morally wrong. Kingsif (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm still thinking about all the times I've needed a Jordan Peterson klaxon but haven't had one available. :) Newimpartial (talk) 18:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option E or A, then F or C. I think it is right to use the name currently preferred by the person, but I am weary of doing so without context. Seeing a clearly female name on a male character or vice versa is certainly grounds for confusion, and without a footnote or a paranthetical (the most concise option) requires clicking through to the article and perhaps skimming several paragraphs to clear up. We should strive for clarity, and such confusion must be avoided. I do not regard the statement of a trans person being trans (and therefore having had a different name in the past) to be at all problematic; it is simply a statement of historical fact. Using name as credited with a note is a worse option as it gives prominence to the dead name, but it still contains all relevant information. Using only the name as credited is not acceptable. Karlinator (talk) 15:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C/D/F with the caveat that the work is still published under the former name. Option B is not acceptable. This isn't really about identification, it is about authorship. When you cite a work you cite the name it is published under. If the work is re-published under a new name then the credit should be updated accordingly. This isn't unique to gender identity, name changes often occur within marriage. As far as I am aware we don't adopt a revisionist approach for authorship/work credits when someone gets married so I don't know why name changes due to gender identity issues are being singled out. Wikipedia shouldn't intentionally cause offence but we shouldn't be putting cultural sensitivities before encyclopedic accuracy. We need a balanced approach. Betty Logan (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As far as I am aware we don't adopt a revisionist approach for authorship/work credits when someone gets married so I don't know why name changes due to gender identity issues are being singled out. Wikipedia shouldn't intentionally cause offence but we shouldn't be putting cultural sensitivities before encyclopedic accuracy." You put it very well. There is special pleading going on here, with name changes that relate to trans issues held to be exempt from the straightforward way we treat unmarried/married names, legal names vs stage names, names changed during the course of a career (e.g. Cat Stevens) and so on. The basis of this seems to be a taboo that has developed, in a particular subculture and very recently, against so-called 'deadnaming'. It is reminiscent of the Aboriginal Australian taboo against using the personal names of people who have died. No one should go out of their way to offend, but Wikipedia should not be bound by these taboos. Beorhtwulf (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note that MOS:CHANGEDNAME currently treats gender-related name changes differently from other name changes, which was reaffirmed in the recent RfC that was closed memorably as don't be a dick. The present RfC doesn't offer a path to reverse this difference in treatment, which cannot be considered "special pleading" once it is already policy. The current matter is to decide on aspects of the scope and implementation of said different treatment. And when NOTCENSORED comes up against don't be a dick, the community has said that the latter principle should prevail. Newimpartial (talk) 16:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just comparing deadnaming - deliberately referring to someone by a name they have told you not to use and that is associated with a period where they could not openly express themselves - to using someone's maiden name shows you have no idea about the subject. The same is also clear from the way you put so-called 'deadnaming'; @Beorhtwulf:, downplaying struggles of trans people is offensive and completely unnecessary in the context you wrote that so I strongly suggest you remove it. It's not about a taboo, it's just common decency. Imagine if you encountered a trans actor in real life and wanted to talk about one of their films, and then said "but because you were credited as X in the film, I'm going to use that name for this whole discussion". Would you do that? Nothing's being revised as you so claim; the actor is the same, we're not saying someone else played the role. Kingsif (talk) 16:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I note your suggestion that I remove my comment but I chose my words carefully and cannot agree. I don't set out to offend and I hope you can acknowledge that. We disagree I think about the extent to which certain people's reception of comments as offensive should govern decisions about when to retract them. I think you can take the view that the cultural prohibition against deadnaming that has emerged very recently in certain circles is a form of naming taboo, in the sense anthropologists would use it, without also suggesting that it is illegitimate. The people I've come across who oppose deadnaming appear sincere and well-meaning and I don't doubt that you're one of them. To answer your question about meeting a trans actor, the analogy doesn't quite work. If I met Yusuf Islam I would refer to him as "Mr Islam" or "Yusuf" even when asking him about his upbringing or career in the 1970s, because I'm having a realtime conversation with him in the year 2020. The same would apply if I met a trans actor. This is not the same as narrating a person's life and career history in an encyclopedia article that seeks to avoid writing from a perspective of recentism. I have no objection to our article using the name Elliot Page to refer to any acting credits or anything else notable that postdates the December 2020 name change. I am not going around insisting trans people always and forever use their birth names, only arguing against retrospective rewrites of history. Beorhtwulf (talk) 16:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • And you are going to lose, both in this specific instance and in the general principle. The community has already moved on (and, as has been pointed out, we don't apply this "name people used at the time" principle when we write encyclopaedic articles about historical figures, anyway. If we did, these articles would be very difficult to follow). Newimpartial (talk) 16:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • (edit conflict) I don't doubt you don't mean to offend; anyone genuinely taking part in this discussion I believe is doing so with the best of intentions. Now, I wrote something above about it not being our place to decide, that if Page or any other actor tells the public their name, we should use that name, no questions asked; it's not taboo to just not be a dick. To respond to the retraction question, my point was that it was unnecessary; the way you chose your words was ill-informed, I'm afraid, and while you likely didn't mean to downplay trans struggles the fact is you could have just said "deadnaming", no "so-called", no quotation marks as if it's a made-up concept. I still think you should retract it, for your benefit because I never thought it would offend anyone in this forum, rather make you look bad. If you want to keep it, do consider that. I also take issue with how you've phrased [people] who oppose deadnaming appear sincere and well-meaning as if we are people to be pitied for being well-intentioned but misguided. I will assume you don't intend that, either. This is a long-winded introduction to really say that you have answered a rhetorical question by deconstructing an analogy instead of addressing the point; a person is a person, and that person has a name, and it is not RECENT to use a person's correct name at any given point in time. That's thankfully a benefit of Wikipedia. When we are made aware of a mistake, and using a dead name is a mistake, we can fix it post-haste.
        • If I could politely educate you some more, it would be remiss for me to not address your final comment, where you suggest that any notability pre-transition should retain the name used at the time. That's wrong - in your own Yusuf Islam example, you wrote that you would call him Yusuf and not, say, a childhood nickname, even when talking about said childhood. If you were writing a biography, you would not use the childhood nickname; if you were writing a current review about him or anyone else in a school play as a child, you would not refer to them by the childhood nickname, even if they were exclusively known by the nickname as a child. And you would especially not do any of that if they didn't like the nickname. Kingsif (talk) 16:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • In countries where free speech is cherished biographies of public figures may be unauthorized and therefore contain information which is not necessarily cherished by the subject (as as long as it factual). So your argument doesn't make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knoterification (talk • contribs) 01:00, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option B situationally A or E. Option B if the person was not notable under their deadname, Option A for wide notaybility, Option E for specific credits. Care must be taken, many reliable sources will now go and remove deadnames on request (Times magazine for example recently seen) what may once have been one option may become another as sources adapt. B should be the default in ambiguous cases unless notable use of their name can be demonstrated within the encyclopedic content with reliable sourcing. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 16:09, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B, alternatively A or E may be appropriate. It does depend on context. My views are fairly similar to Antisymmetricnoise just above. The Land (talk) 18:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D or C: I am persuaded by WP:FILMCAST: "All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source." As such, in cases of notability pre-transition, I believe it is our best policy to continue using names as credited (in line with FILMCAST as it stands right now), with such names redirecting to the current page, with, of course, a note about transition on the person's page (as is the case with Elliot Page and Caitlyn Jenner). Still, there's a good deal of context needed, and I can agree with The Land and Antisymmetricnoise above me regarding "Option B if the person was not notable under their deadname". — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 18:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Except that we already have the NAMECHANGES section of WP:COMMONNAME, which specifies that when a name a change occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit - in other words, the changed nama is the "common name supported by a reliable source" as noted in FILMCAST. (Yes, I know COMMONNAME technically applies to article titles not to mentions, but it does define the concept of "common name" on a site-wode basis.) Newimpartial (talk) 19:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option E or as a distant second A. Simply because I find footnotes as less than obvious for most readers, particularly on mobile. This formulation should always be used in cast lists or similar non-prose situations. When it comes to the actual prose of an article, this formulation should only be used once at the first mention of the person's name. Thereafter the deadname shouldn't be used. I can't envision a situation where their deadname would need to be used again. Maybe if it's part of direct quote, but then one would really need to question if said quote even needs to be in the article. Obviously, this all assumes the person was notable under their deadname. Capeo (talk) 19:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E, as first choice, option A, as second, per Nosebagbear. Armadillopteryx 19:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option F or Option E. I think we need to mention both names to avoid the potential for confusion. Not mentioning the old name means that the credits in the article will not match up with the credits in the work, implies that the work features cross-gender casting (which is very unusual), and may also confuse readers who don't know the person under the new name. Not mentioning the new name may also confuse people who aren't familiar with the old one. Since this is very brief I don't think it necessarily needs to be moved to a footnote but I'm not particularly opposed to doing so. Hut 8.5 19:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• m:Gender gap is really incredibly relevant here. If ever there were a time to defer to the wishes and practices of the affected community, this is it. (To avoid any doubt, the affected community here is trans/nb folks, not wikipedians.) I'm not asking any wikipedians to out themselves here, but maybe the normal WP consensus process is poorly suited to this task? - Revolving Bugbear 20:00, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E first choice, A second, B third I definitely think that preference should be given to the new name (for the same "do no harm" principle that motivates MOS:DEADNAME). I am sympathetic to the concerns about confusion for a reader, though, so mentioning the old name in a subordinate context is reasonable, and I think a parenthetical phrase probably does that best. If consensus is that the old name isn't necessary, I will be surprised, but I certainly don't object. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A (better to always some pedagogy) followed by Option B, we need to do the minimum harm. Kvardek du (talk) 20:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D or C for the same reasons as others have said, and under absolutely no circumstances B. No matter which way you want to twist it, Elliot Page was known as Ellen Page, publicly used that name, publicly claimed to be a woman and consciously chose to be credited under that name. People have no trouble with Sean Combs being referred to as "Puff Daddy", "P. Diddy" or "Diddy" on different album pages depending on which name he was using at the time, there shouldn't be any trouble with Elliot being referred to as "Ellen Page" on the Inception infobox (the article itself can have a mention of "Elliot Page (then known as Ellen Page)" or something. Happy Evil Dude (talk) 21:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E followed by Option A We should absolutely include people's preferred (I don't like that word) names. As a trans person with a deadname, I am sensitive to the concerns that we should not include deadnames. However, there is also the reality that for people who have been previously notable under a deadname, regular folks may find it difficult to navigate based on their new name. I think we can weigh our need to respect those we cover with a need to be a usable encyclopedia by using people's preferred names, but having some kind of note about deadname for readers who may not be familiar with their transition. I prefer a parenthetical option, as footnotes are not widely read. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 22:20, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or B, followed distantly by Option E To avoid doing harm to the subject or to other transgender individuals who empathise with the subject, I would support not Deadnaming as far as possible, without clouding the meaning of the text. In an ideal world I'd prefer Option B but we do need to keep the article intelligible? I guess I'm just repeating myself and others at this point though. CHABGO (talk) 22:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E as it respects the primacy of the current name while also being clear that the publication was under an older name. It is clear and easily understood. It is better than using footnotes because those require the reader to jump around the page and not everybody reads them anyway. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B generally, unless there would be clear confusion for readers of highly notable articles in which Option E should be an acceptable alternative, but used sparingly. Avoid deadnaming wherever possible but sometimes mentioning the old name as an aside may be the only way to minimize reader confusion. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 23:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or Option B. If we're going to refer to trans people by their preferred name within their article (as is the current practice, as it should be) then we should refer to them as such in other articles as well. If there is a need to clarify that they may have been credited differently, a footnote should suffice. Hominid77777 (talk) 23:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dec 3 arbitrary break

• Option C and then, followed by D because name as credited in the work will not changed before their preferred name change. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C, D or F as appropriate (doing F all the time would make the page much "heavier" for no reason), because it's most consistent with the existing MOS:CHANGEDNAME section, and the path of least astonishment for readers who may well be coming from a particular work by the person, where they were cited with their name from that time. Being respectful is fine, but artificially changing history is not actually being respectful of the encyclopedia. LjL (talk) 02:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Artificially changing history" is a red herring. It is not "changing history" to state that Elliot Page starred in Juno any more than it is changing history to state that, say, the dwarf planet Eris was photographed as early as 1954, or that bohrium was discovered in 1976. The names "Eris" and "bohrium" would not be used for those entities until 2006 and 1997 respectively, but they are now the correct names for them and discussion of them at earlier dates properly uses those names. It's not necessary to use the term "unnilseptium" to refer to bohrium in the context of research about it conducted prior to 1997, even though "unnilseptium" was considered the correct name for bohrium at that time. Elliot Page's name is now Elliot Page; even if, like bohrium and Eris, he was known by other names at other times in his life, we're writing about him and informing people about him now and should refer to him by what his name is now. (All the more so given that it is considered rude and offensive to refer to trans people by their deadnames, which is not the case for elements and planets. Why should bohrium, an unstable atom, get more consideration than Elliot Page, a human person?) AJD (talk) 03:00, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D, and if necessary Option C if there is information on the past work page that is dated after the transition that names the person after the transition. There are limited exceptions like the Matrix films where a clean option to "mask" the deadname is possible but in a case of Page, there's simply no way to hide their old name from how it was reported from at the time, and trying to go out of our way to hide a notable deadname is against common sense. --Masem (t) 02:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Seriously? How do E or A hide a deadname? They quite clearly include the person's deadname. They are clearly the best way to not confuse readers while respecting notable people. The idea that you think "masking" a deadname is a "clean option" is simply gross disappointing. Capeo (talk) 02:51, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Taking a film like Inception, the bulk of the sources are going to use the name "Ellen Page" in referring to the actor and at this point, none of them using "Elliot Page". We are going to be confusing readers who will be trying to research more information on Inception and Page's involvement by bringing the name that has no source association with the film to the forefront and hiding the deadname. Unless the rest of the world retroactively changes names in old articles that would alleviate this issue, we should not be doing that ourselves as well. And while I respect avoiding the deadnames for individuals where the deadname was simply not well known, Page's case is one that we simply cannot hide; it was used far too much to ignore. That's why we make a clear difference already in MOS:DEADNAME for the use of deadnames if they were used while the person was notable (as in Page's case as well as Jenner's). --Masem (t) 15:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Just so that we are clear, the difference between C and D is that C includes a footnote with the current name and D does not. I am unaware of a universe in which providing a footnote reporting the name an actor currently uses would be be confusing readers. Unless what is meant is that we would be confusing readers by notifying them that an actor of whose career they may have been at least vaguely aware has come out as trans - which is probably a kind of "confusion" that would be good for them to have. The difference between these two options has nothing to do with avoiding the deadname - it is about giving valuable information to readers. The proposed restriction - only to include a footnote if there are critical sources cited in the article that use the current name - does not do anything valuable for our readers but merely seems to cover an extreme deficiency of D, which should instead give rise to a rethink. Newimpartial (talk) 15:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option E seems to be the best way to balance using the correct name/not being transphobic (unintentionally or otherwise) with preventing out-of-the-loop readers from getting confused when they see a transgender person’s preferred name. Second choice would be Option A but I always prefer parentheses to footnotes as they are less disruptive to the reader (no need to roll over/click on stuff). —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:47, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E or F. A credited / current name distinction is too relevant to relegate to a footnote, so should be mentioned directly in the text. Option A for a third choice. While I suspect the goal of this may be consistency, I would be fine with forsaking consistency and allowing some discretion between E, F, and A - F being used for cases where the original gender is extremely relevant / surprising (e.g. Jenner competing in Men's Olympics events), E being used in most cases, and A being used when the deadname is more of a curiosity (e.g. the first edition of a book that sold far more in later editions published under an updated name). SnowFire (talk) 06:28, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A, B, E – I can see why a footnote might be helpful in case people are not up to date with the developments in an individual's life and would like some more context. I think there's no point using someone's previous name in the body of the article. If we have a dry list of names, it could say for example "Adam Smith (credited as Amanda Smith)". Otherwise since the article is talking about a specific person, it makes no sense to refer to that person using anything else other than their current name. BeŻet (talk) 12:19, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D, per arguments by User Geraldo Perez, like: "as Ellen Page". After the name change, all credits and references should be Elliot Page, unless if it's someone else's quoted speech (written or spoken). -Mardus /talk 13:34, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Could you clarify? You said "option D" in big bold letters, but it sounds like the plan you're recommending is more like option E. AJD (talk) 15:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option A/E, generally describe people using the name by which they are currently known. Wikipedia articles are written in the present. Add "credited as" or similar note where necessary in context. BegbertBiggs (talk) 14:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A/E, for the reasons cited above. I see consensus emerging here. Jmill1806 (talk) 15:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or E, in that order, as cited above. I'm also more than fine with Option B (preferred name without qualification), tbh. The idea that someone is going to be so confused but incapable of clicking feels like a strawman to me. I'm with AJD on the more general point: Wikipedia is here to provide information to its readers; the information the readers are seeking is more likely to be "which actor played Juno in Juno?", not "what text appeared on the screen in the credits of Juno?" That first question has an answer, and the answer to that question is a person who has a name, and his name is Elliot. The idea that we need to push someone's trans status into readers' consciousness at every mention feels unnecessary and like giving undue weight to their deadname, to me. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 17:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C Credits are credits no need to retroactively change them. Gotitbro (talk) 18:27, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Whether or not to retroactively change credits is a decision that's up to movie studios; many trans people would recommend that they should if possible. Wikipedia, however, is meant to be a source of information to its readers. If Wikipedia readers want to know the answer to the question "Who played Juno in Juno?", they should know that the answer to that question is Elliot Page. AJD (talk) 18:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ajd: You are right. Changing my vote to Option E as both terms might be equally important. Gotitbro (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• A/E first choice; either way should be allowed; parenthetical, footnote, in-text, or whatever method, should be left up to editor discretion to be decided case by case. C and F are second choices. They'd be OK, but when we identify cast members (or work authors or whatever), we are identifying people, not text. Our readers generally want to know, "Who starred in that movie?", not "What name did they credit the starring role"? As an example, the person who starred in Juno is named Elliot. Sure, he was credited under a different name, but the person is named Elliot. We should identify the person who played the role, not what it said in the end credits; what name they were credited under is secondary to who was in the role. So A/E better than C/F. D... well, D would be a second choice if, instead of a footnote, a wikilink was used, or some other method of identifying the person (e.g., a parenthetical as in F). So D as written is a little overly restrictive, but I don't agree with "name as credited without any indication of actual name". If that's what D means, then I oppose D. On similar grounds, not B is important; for clarity, whenever there is a discrepancy between how a person is credited and the person's name, we should explain, somewhere, that discrepancy. Levivich ^harass/_hound 18:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A and Option E are the least bad potentially OK, and the decision between a parenthetical and a footnote is probably so dependent upon the specific circumstances that there's no point in trying to make a blanket rule. There are also cases where Option B would be acceptable, when all the individual's achievements for which they are noteworthy came after their transition and the biographical information about their earlier life is both sparse and uninteresting (e.g., a scientist who passes WP:PROF and whose pre-transition biography is just where they went to college). However, preferred name is not good terminology; as spazure noted above, it's their actual ... name. Preferred is a weaker adjective than, for example, chosen. XOR'easter (talk) 19:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Reading this again the next day, it seems less enthusiastic about Option B than I intended. Revised accordingly. I should say that I have actually had occasion to cite a trans colleague's work in a scholarly publication, and I asked for advice about how to describe a book published under their deadname. The format "[actual name], writing as [deadname]" was, in their words, a "good workaround". XOR'easter (talk) 18:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option B or Option A. An actor doesn’t become a new person when they announce their new name – it only makes sense to use their correct name whenever referring to them. --Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 21:10, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option G (not included so far)... take it on a case by case basis. Too much depends on how notable the person was under the previous name. If all we have under the previous name are credits for minor rolls, it makes sense to “update” them to the new one. However, if the person is extremely notable under the old name, then “updating” becomes ridiculous. Blueboar (talk) 21:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Interpret on a case-by-case basis, but since nobody wants to go for that, Option A or Option C or Option E or Option F (basically, any damn thing but B or D). With some pretty heavy caveats on a single guideline: Norma Jeane Mortenson, for example, preferred the name Marilyn Monroe for most of her life, she was nearly always credited under that name, and we refer to her by that name long before she came up with it ("Monroe's early childhood was stable and happy"). The same is true of Saul Hudson ("During his early years, Slash was raised by his father and paternal grandparents"). and O'Shea Jackson ("Ice Cube was born on June 15, 1969"). So there is clearly some precedent for crediting people under their preferred names -- but then again, Ramón Antonio Gerard Estévez (you know, the guy who played the President in The West Wing, whose son is Charlie Sheen) -- is credited as Martin Sheen in every movie he's been in, and we call him this on Wikipedia, despite him disliking the name ("I started using Sheen, I thought I'd give it a try, and before I knew it, I started making a living with it and then it was too late. In fact, one of my great regrets is that I didn't keep my name as it was given to me. I knew it bothered my dad"). Similarly, Chris McCandless began exclusively referring to himself as Alexander Supertramp, and was quite clear on this being his new name, but then he died and everyone started calling him "Chris", which our article title represents for whatever reason. I would assume that all of these articles got to be the way they are by virtue of long, arduous debates that reached a different consensus based on specific details of the situation at hand. It's not abundantly clear to me that applying a uniform principle to name changes across the board would result in less controversy, or in the overall encyclopedia becoming more correct. jp×g 22:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• A/E as having a note, footnote or otherwise would be useful to readers unaware of a celebrities gender transition who might possibly get confused. I prefer parenthetical over footnotes, but either one works for me. I think something similar to "Elliot Page (credit as Ellen Page)" would suffice. QueerFilmNerd^talk 23:41, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C. And if not that, then Option F. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Name as published/credited because if you're searching for a reference, that's what is the relevant information. Footnotes/Parentheticals as needed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 03:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  This seems to presume that searching for a reference is the determining factor in how to write text, and that the name as credited is the only relevant information for that goal, both of which seem debatable to me. XOR'easter (talk) 17:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option E, but Option F acceptable in some cases. Because of the issues of identity and dignity involved with deadnaming, I recognize that it is right to treat these name changes differently from those associated with marriage or the use of a nickname, middle name, etc. In these latter cases, we often write the name as credited but wikilink to the individual's article as presently titled, with no further explanation on the work's page. But for a transgender individual, it behooves us to choose an approach that more prominently uses the person's chosen name. But, at the same time, the name as credited in the work should be accurately represented as a matter of verifiable information. Because of the complex issues around deadnaming, I think our preference should be to present the new chosen name as the main piece of information; this leaves the question of how to present the former name. I was originally inclined towards Option A, thinking that a footnote is a suitably unobtrusive way to include the deadname. However, after reading comments here that footnotes are, in fact, too obscure to provide the desired clarity, I was persuaded to support Option E instead. However, in the relatively small number of cases where the perceived gender of the person at the time is directly relevant to the immediate passage (such as an "Accolades" listing that includes a nomination for a gendered award, or in the specific case of Juno where there is discussion of the innately female biology of a cisgender female character who was played by a transmale actor), it should be acceptable to reverse the priority and use Option F if it enhances readability or clarity. Also, as SnowFire mentioned, there could also be instances where Option A (and by extension to my preferences, Option C) is more appropriate because the name change is less germane. --DavidK93 (talk) 08:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - We most certainly should not be retro-erasing anyone's previous name, no matter what level of lack of notability it has. GoodDay (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  That would be an argument against the MOS:DEADNAME policy itself, which this discussion is not about. We already recognize that dead-names are generally not appropriate to use at all if that the person was not notable under that name. Since we already have a policy against using dead-names if the person was not notable under that name, this RfC is specifically about when the person was notable under their dead-name. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:44, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean re-directs of former names will also be deleted? GoodDay (talk) 02:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option E, which should apply more broadly in cases of changed names. Mentions of individuals should convey to the reader both the current name, so that they can identify the person being referenced, and the name in use at the time, as a matter of historical accuracy. Both functions are critical, so neither should be relegated to a footnote. Wording along the lines of "Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (then Lew Alcindor)" or "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen Page)" do this very succinctly and clearly.--Trystan (talk) 14:05, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C Unequivocally. 10 toes down. As credited in the work with a footnote explaining that they have since transitioned. No "or" about it. People may find dead-naming rude but it’s impossible for an actor, especially, to avoid. This is an encyclopedia: there is an obligiation to inform the reader of facts and history, not to rewrite it. Leaving out a footnote is disingenuous. Parenthesis can become a bit sloppy and clunky. But claiming an identity that didn’t previously exist did something in the past when evidence shows otherwise is insanity. Trillfendi (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Your rationale doesn't connect to your preference. There is an obligation to inform the reader of facts and history, yes. If the fact that the reader wants to learn about is "Who played Juno in the film Juno?", the fact is that the answer to that question is Elliot Page. Elliot Page is the person who, in 2007, starred in the film Juno. Similarly, Mahershala Ali appeared in the series Crossing Jordan, and Alexander Siddig played Julian Bashir in the first three seasons of Deep Space Nine. "An identity that didn't... exist" is nonsense. AJD (talk) 18:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  But the reality is, Elliot Page didn’t play Juno, defying special relativity and context. Ellen Page did, let the record show. When the character was played, Page was still Ellen both in legal identity and acting credit, and still cisgender, to public knowledge and presentation. Chosen by Jason Reitman for the role because they were in fact a young woman. That matters to the damn movie (which is about the stigma of teenage pregnancy from the female perspective) and to when it was made (a different decade where this subject was not even an idea or a factor, let alone controversial to the movie). Some editors here want the reader to think otherwise. Just last year, Diablo Cody's only regret was how it holds up in a contemporary world where abortion access is now criminalized—she wouldn’t have made the movie because of that aspect or would have rewritten it to make her politics clearer. Another thing that infers the female perspective as it is women who bear the brunt of abortion restriction. This isn’t about a simple, facile, “Victoria Adams was the Spice Girl 👠” routine name change (or that Mahershalalhashbaz Ali was too difficult to pronounce so he shortened it) as you’re trying to make it out to be. If one is going to say Ellen Page, as the actress, didn’t play Juno, just go ahead and wipe the whole career filmography from existence. At Thanksgiving is was Ellen Grace Philpotts-Page (born February 21, 1987) is a Canadian actress. Just 4 days ago this wouldn’t be a Request for Comment. So the only realistic option is to leave the previous, female stage name that the entire career centered on with a note. Trillfendi (talk) 20:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  The reality is that Elliot Page and Ellen Page are the same person, not two different people. One person played the character Juno. At the time he had one name; now he has a different name; still the same person. The reality is that Elliot Page played Juno and Ellen Page played Juno because both names refer to the same person. The reality is that this is a picture of Marilyn Monroe and Norma Jean Mortenson because both names refer to the same person. It's not not a picture of Marilyn Monroe because the person in the picture didn't go by that name at that time. That's just not how names work: name changes apply retroactively in common parlance; that's why we refer to artists by their stage names even when we're discussing their youth. (And the reality is that a deadname is not like a stage name.) Levivich ^harass/_hound 20:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I didn’t say two different people, but name of the former identity which is credited on the top bill; yet the activists don’t even want us to use for the actor when the film was made because it’s gauuuuche. To say Elliot Page, now a man in 2020, played Juno in 2007 is unscrupulous. The stage name is the fact that at birth the surname was Philpotts-Page. It's bizarre that calling an actor who played a character by the name they were credited as on film, presenting as a female gender, is considered a referendum on deadnaming. In an encyclopedia. Or that there are people this person has never met taking it as a personal affront. Trillfendi (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  It's not unscrupulous to say Elliot Page played Juno in 2007. Elliot Page did play Juno in 2007; it's an undeniable fact. It wasn't some other person. Just like Caitlyn Jenner, a woman, won gold in the men's decathlon in 1976. Even though she had a different name then, even though she presented as a different gender then, it doesn't change the fact – undeniable fact – that the person who is today named Caitlyn Jenner won the men's decathlon gold medal in 1976. It wasn't a different person. Chelsea Manning was arrested in 2010, even though she also had a different name then. We don't refer to either of these people by their previous names or previous (public) gender identities when discussing their past in articles. That's not rewriting history. That's not unscrupulous. It's normal. In an encyclopedia. Levivich ^harass/_hound 22:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  An "undeniable fact"? With the evidence of your idea of a fact being photographically, historically, and cinematically the opposite?

  The person who won the men’s decathlon in 1976 was indeed Bruce Jenner. Bruce Jenner won the metal! Just because they are now known as Caitlyn since 2015 doesn’t change what happened in 1976. This is bordering on gaslighting. How does it make any sense that Kendall Jenner and Kylie Jenner call Caitlyn "dad" at Caitlyn’s request because that what (then-)he was their whole life until transition, as Jenner was a cisgender male and father when they were conceived biologically... but Bruce Jenner wasn’t the decathlete who won the Olympics. Now it’s Bruce Jenner was their father’s name but Bruce Jenner wasn’t the athlete? Abeg, as the Nigerians would say. Trillfendi (talk) 23:01, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Trillfendi, do you really think that Reitman wouldn't have cast Page in that role if he had been out as genderqueer at the time (and so young)? For that matter, do you really think it matters to the film if the pregnancy occurs in a female or genderqueer character's body? I saw the film for the first time about a year ago, and it is a great film, but I didn't find that it depended on my believing in a cis het protagonist to make it work.

  Also, your argument that the name change for Page is somehow less simple and therefore more salient than Mahershalalhashbaz Ali, I think if anything you are illustrating the importance of providing readers with the new name. The idea that Page's "actressness" was somehow essential to their pre-2020 public image - as though women as well as nonbinary people working in the field don't generally prefer "actor" to "actress" on general principle - show just how badly both gender and acting are understood. Newimpartial (talk) 20:33, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  And this is why context is above all. When you watched the film last year you watched it with a modern viewpoint. Maybe the article needs a Legacy section to address that. When I watched the film as a middle schooler, I remember how the media pushback in real time, including teen magazines trying to broach the subject of the "Juno Effect" on teen pregnancy and the grown ups on the news claiming the film sugar-coated it with it aw-shucks "Oh Junebug" patois. And the never ending pro-life/choice debate. The idea that this film was anti-abortion was the outrage, but if Juno had the abortion the film would be 30 minutes long. Genderqueerness was not in this film reception’s universe in 2007 and 2008, or for now over a decade to come. And because film captures a moment in society, the article must reflect what was. Had Page publiy been LGBTQIA+ at the time, sure Reitman likely wouldn’t care but reception would’ve been severely homophobic and sexist. The mainstream media’s de rigeur homophobia and biphobia would have overshadowed the film’s themes completely. But we cannot sit here and act like the general public, the general public who reads Wikipedia, would understand the terrain of someone of a now male-identifying transperson playing a pregnant teenage girl back then without the name Ellen Page. Especially not in the 2000s. Trillfendi (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  And any female actor (or actress, in English) will say how hard it is being a woman in Hollywood anyway. Didn’t Page, who was not "out", get sexually extorted by Brett Ratner who wanted to test whether or not Page was heterosexual? Now the neutrality of actor is preferred because of sexism and flippancy they deal with as actresses. Page already expressed the right to play LGBT characters as well straight characters. Luckily Page’s public image pre-2020 was that of an Oscar-nominated actor whose career accomplishments preceded public image. Trillfendi (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, the (female) professional actors I knew in the 1990s preferred "actor" over "actress", though granted I wasn't in middle school at the time. And how many of the people who were directly impacted, as you were, by the moral panic around teen pregnancy and the "Juno effect" turned out to be queer, nonbinary or trans after all? I'm sure it is a nontrivial number.

  The fact is, we are not writing Wikipedia based on what we knew in 2007 for a 2007 audience. We are writing Wikipedia for posterity based on everything we know to date. And from that standpoint, the reception of a film at the time is something we describe based on reliable sources, not a time capsule we maintain by denying the living participants in the work the right to have their lives examined from a broader perspective. You may not feel like it, but you are an exact equivalent to the WP:GG-style edit warriors who were insisting to the last gasp that what had to be understood about 1997's The Matrix was that it was made by the Wachowski brothers, and not its - and their - place in a much larger context. To the last gasp of the RfC that ended their crusade, I mean. Newimpartial (talk) 22:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  The Matrix was in fact created by The Wachowski Brothers who are now referred in that article’s infobox as The Wachowskis, which is still apt. Not the Wachowski Sisters, nor Lana and Lilly Wachowski. Which would be a lie. Trillfendi (talk) 22:54, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Trillfendi: It would be a lie to say "Lana and Lilly Wachowsi made The Matrix."..? You don't seriously believe that? Come on; that really is just absurd. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 07:29, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Comparing another editor to Gamergaters (clearly what you meant by WP:GG, based on the DS codes, not the Gaelic Games WikiProject) is a personal attack. Also, your alternate history in your 20:33 comment is highly implausible. Filmmakers, with extremely little exception, cast a woman to play a woman. That's also what audiences expect. This was all the more true in 2007, though it is still true today. Pregnancy, or the potentiality thereof, is widely viewed (one could say socially constructed) as something that specifically women and girls have to consider and deal with. Why that all is I will leave as an exercise for the reader. And if the character of Juno had been non-binary or otherwise not cisgender, of course that would impact the social interactions of the movie, and the reception of the movie in real life. Genders and sexes aren't just meaningless labels for people to play around with to subvert social norms. They have real meaning and significance. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Crossroads, you don't get to decide for other people what comparisons should offend them. And unless ciscasting catches on in a way it hasn't so far, we can expect genderqueer and nonbinary actors to take on an increasing number of roles of varying genders: I think my CRYSTAL ball is good on that one, since it's based on simple supply and demand. Newimpartial (talk) 23:22, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  GamerGate is sadly relevant here. Perhaps a year ago, in a situation where this was relevant, I learned that Wikipedia's only rule against being openly transphobic on talk pages was the GamerGate sanctions. Until such a time as Wikipedia has a code of conduct, maybe you can forgive a description of transphobia in the terms that the Wikipedia community at large seems to understand. rspεεr (talk) 06:47, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Option F (first choice) or Option E. We exist to serve the reader, so we should try to avoid confusion as much as possible. Presenting the reader with both names, without one buried in a footnote, is the clearest, least confusing way to credit previous works. For the same reason, I prefer F over E: consistency with the work itself and with media\sources from that time avoids confusion. I'm not swayed by arguments revolving around the potential harm caused by using former names for people who are notable under both names. There may be exceptions for time to time, but presumably people affected by this are public figures, who routinely encounter both names in the media. In most cases, we can only speculate about how they feel about it, but if they are indeed harmed by it, unfortunately whatever we do on Wikipedia probably won't help them much given the prevalence of their previous name in other sources. Yilloslime (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E preferably or Option A as space permits. It's already how we (and other publications, notably IMDb) do this for anyone credited under a different name, whether they are former names, alternate names, misspellings, aliases, or whatever. For example Stark Raving Dad ("Michael Jackson (credited as John Jay Smith)"), The Matrix ("The Wachowskis (credited as The Wachowski Brothers" - this one is a footnote), Woman Wanted ("Kiefer Sutherland (as Alan Smithee)"), and yes, the IMDb entry for Juno gives "Elliot Page (as Ellen Page)" along with "Darla Fay (as Darla Vandenbossche)" and "Kaaren de Zilva (as Kaaren De Zilva)". We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. None of these explain why the credited name is different, the reader can go to the person's biography for more info. Also, it's "chosen name" or just "name", not "preferred name". Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:17, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B-2. I see absolutely zero reason to credit someone under their deadname. Using the name a person currently goes by makes it easier for readers and editors to find additional (more current) works by that person, while using a deadname only offers that only for older works (which can already be found by clicking the subject's name for most websites). However, I do believe we should make an invisible comment <!-- Like this --> to explain to editors not to change the credit per MOS:DEADNAME.
  My ranked choices would have to be Options B, A, E, then F. I am completely against Option D and think adopting it would be one of the worst mistakes this project could make. It addresses zero concerns that have been raised over the course of this RFC and leaves us open to utterly massive BLP violations. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC) CE 18:33, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E The same style we use for pseudonyms in several film credits. Person x (under the name "xx"). There is no room for confusion this way. Dimadick (talk) 18:42, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• E or A (B is also acceptable especially where the name wikilinks to the article anyway) as first choices; in line with the spirit of MOS:IDENTITY and as AJD says because we're here to provide information about who played Juno (etc), which is the person Elliot Page (who can be wikilinked or footnoted for anyone who wants to know more), not to be a "wikIMDB"-esque collection of screenshots of movie credits. (See also: we change names like The Beatles sometimes, droping The from "a The Beatles album" etc, as discussed elsewhere on this page. We don't follow how specialist birder guides capitalize White-Tailed Eagles. Etc, etc.) If Dimadick's comment is right, this is already done in many cisgender cases(?). Less desirable than E, A or B, but better than the other options, is F. Good luck to whoever closes this and has to make sense of an RFC with so many options. -sche (talk) 20:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E at the first mention, and in cast lists: "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen Page)". After that option B, only the preffered name. If we have already explained that the person was credited under an older name, there's no need to repeat the information every time that person is mentioned. Using the preferred name is respectful. Footnotes could be accepted when there is little room, such as in info boxes, but in genereal I think a parenthesis is better for readability. I don't like using only the preferred name throughout without mentioning the old name, as that is skipping important information and close to rewriting history. /Jiiimbooh » TALK – CONTRIBS 22:07, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C makes the most amount of sense to go with the credited name and then explain the name change which occured after the fact. Anon0098 (talk) 22:43, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C per Trillfendi and Anon0098. Mgasparin (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A, B, or E depending on the article and where the name is mentioned as determined by local consesuses. For example, Option E would seem to make sense for the cast sections of major roles for individuals who were notable under that name, and Option A for the infobox or first use in the lead or body where relevant. For subsquent uses or articles where the role was not very significant (or works released with the new name now credited), Option B would I think work fine. It is an important part of Wikipedia and especially the WP:BLP policies that we take into consideration how our articles affect the real lives of people in the world and their preferences on certain issues. I'm actually convinced by several of the arguments that it would be a good idea to extend the principle of using common names rather than formerly credited names as a general practice regardless of gender identity, but since this RfC is specifically about revising MOS:DEADNAME, I think we have to recognize the consideration that we extend to transgender and non-binary people who have changed their name as detailed in the policy. While some of the arguments seem to be based on an underlying opposition to the dead-naming policy itself, it doesn't seem like there can be a serious argument that dead-naming does not cause harm. We have that policy, and this RfC is not about getting rid of it. I also do not understand the argument that this somehow rewrites history. To claim that "Elliot Page" did not star in Juno is obviously not true, and none of the options would provide "fake" information. I don't think anyone would even attempt to make that kind of argument if this name change did not involve gender. We don't simply reproduce all the credits from a film in our cast sections, and most of the information in our articles is not based on contemporaneous knowledge anyway since in general we prefer more recent sources over contemporaneous ones. The use of the common name is already included in some MOS project guidelines such as for films, and there seem to be many instances where we do not use the name credited in a work (or even include individuals who are uncredited in a work). We seem to be fine using pseudonyms and stage names throughout other articles, as well as changed names in some instances when there are not other underlying contentious issues. I do not think that anyone is going to be confused or astonished if we have some kind of note/parenthetical for the name change right there in the article when it's relevant. WP:ASTONISH is about our content being unnecessarily surprising or confusing to readers, but how would it apply at all if we use a footnote or parenthetical? Page no longer using the name "Ellen" and going by different gender pronouns is an not something that Wikipedia can control, and if there is some kind of confusion for a particular reader over that, then it is going to exist regardless of what we do. As time goes by, it is also going to be more and more astonishing for the average person to see a transgender or non-binary person's dead-name. Are any reliable sources going to continue to call him "Ellen", even when referencing his prior work (other than parenthetically or in a note)? I think as an encyclopedia we should be taking a more longer term view and also be respectful. We give more weight to sources after a name change for that reason. We also give more consideration to name changes by transgender and non-binary people because of the effects of dead-naming. It seems logical to extend those considerations to discussing transgender and non-binary people in their earlier works. We are providing information about that work and the artists involved, not about the credits billing. Any confusion would seem to be solved by a footnote or other explanation, and so I'm not seeing any real reason to not respect the dead-naming concerns. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:39, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• For infoboxes, Option A or B, depending on what's most appropriate. For cast lists in article text, preferably Option E or Option A, but above all, use common sense. For example, Meowth was voiced, in the English dub of the Pokémon anime, by Maddie Blaustein, but was credited under her deadname, then a different female name, for the first couple of seasons; we just use "Maddie" because that's how she was credited for most episodes. Sceptre (talk) 09:45, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E - My reasoning is, if we ask who played that role, it's, for example, Elliot Page. Then we can add (credited as Ellen Page) to avoid confusion for people who might not know Elliot is trans/non-binary. For mentions after that, we should just use the preferred name with no parenthetical. GoodCrossing (talk) 13:46, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E Best balance of the 2 competing priorities probably detailed extensively above. Zoozaz1 talk 17:48, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• A support, but only if any reliable source has connected the work and the current preferred name.

B. Oppose, footnotes are already discouraged, and if a footnote is needed then a footnote should be used.

C. Other side of A, if the work has never been connected to the preferred name, and has been connected to the credited name, in reliably published second sources.

E. Same as A, but the parenthetical substituting for the footnote, this is just styling.

F. Same as C, but the parenthetical substituting for the footnote, this is just styling.

Combine A & E, with "footnote or parenthetical". Combine C & F, with "footnote or parenthetical".

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• In order, Option C, F, E, and A. An absolute affirmative NO to Options B and D: it's not Wikipedia's job to rewrite history, confuse readers, or not reflect reality.. --Calton | Talk 08:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Option B is commonly used for cisgender actors, as I have noted elsewhere on this talk page. Does it rewrite history, confuse readers, or not reflect reality to say that Mahershala Ali appeared in Crossing Jordan or that Alexander Siddig appeared in Melora?

• A or E depending on context, and where/how prominent the name is. The goal should be to be clear, respectful and concise, in that order. Listing only one name is potentially confusing, whichever name it is- either option B, it doesn't match the credits with no explanation, or option D, it links to a totally different name and is unnecessarily disrespectful as well. After the first mention use the last name and correct pronouns only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.48.219 (talk • contribs)
• Since I don't see anyone else having brought it up, I would like to mention that there was an RfC about almost this exact same issue five years ago (although obviously that's no reason not to have it again, of course). The consensus of that particular discussion was to default to a person's historic name and gender for articles outside of the biography itself, which, for the purposes of this RfC, would favour Option C/D/F. Personally, I believe that this is still the best course of action. It would be in keeping with the precedents already set in other articles (we haven't, for example, retroactively changed the cast list of any film that credits Jada Pinkett following her marriage, nor have we changed the cast list of TV series credited to Cheryl Cole following her divorce). It would also align with other guidelines about naming conventions on Wikipedia – WP:Naming conventions (geographic names), for instance, states that "former names [are] used when referring to appropriate historical periods", and gives the example of the names Byzantium, Constantinople and Istanbul all referring the same city, but using whichever one is appropriate for the context. I also agree with Betty Logan's above point about revisionism – it would be misrepresentative to say, for example, that Elliot Page was cast in Juno in 2007, when he didn't even discover that particular name and identity until over a decade later. Thanks, A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 22:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally, I think this discussion is am excellent example of how consensus can change - even before this RfC, I was seeing a general view among editors that name changes associated with gender identity should not default to a person's historic name and gender - indeed, in the case of gendered pronouns, the guidance has been the opposite of this for some time already. The community does not feel that gender-related name changes should be treated like all other name changes while, at the same time, the treatment of those other names in actual articles does not at all follow the {{default ... to ... historic}} that people retcon as a "principle" when they come up against GENDERID changes that they find ASTONISHing Newimpartial (talk) 23:35, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B - Unless said individual has expressed preferences otherwise. In which case we're still using their "preferred name" for that context anyway. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 14:32, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• option F followed by option C in articles about the works they are credited in. This is to avoid anachronistic statements, but makes it clear as to the preferred name in use now. This would apply to anyone that changes name from their work appearance till now. For non-notable people, eg in journal citations, just stick to what the bibliographic databases and libraries say, and don't make any special effort to track down name changes. We should oppose use of those options that give misleadingly incomplete information. eg just using the current preferred name, when it requires synthesis to derive that from the sources. Also just using the original name, may happen until people here know the name changes, and can then add the information about the new name. Notable people do not have a right for information about them to disappear, but we should give credit where it is due, and be kind about it. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:23, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• B is a no go per much of the above. A and C are heavy, likely-to-be missed, but I'm willing to entertain it may be desirable at some article to prefer a (foot)note. Meh about D. General preference to F over E. In order: F > E > D >> A/C, where both deadname and new name are in the reliable source corpora (per the above RFC). There's no reason to be using either deadname or new name in these contexts if one of those does not appear in the corpora.

  For citations, per Graeme just above: Use what is obvious and available in public resources and/or on the published work itself.

  That said we already have guideline/policy on the books which indicates that we should prefer the person's last name anyway, and where it is reasonable that should be the approach taken.

  I worry that this discussion is focused so-far unduly on individuals in TV and film (for obvious reasons), when there are other kinds of works to which the question ostensibly applies. I might plop this paragraph down in #Extended discussion, might not. --Izno (talk) 05:50, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option A, E the preffered name is the real name of the person. We should put them first and then explain why the credited name differs from that. --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 17:22, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• B, A, or E in order of preference depending on context, with the caveat (for A or E) that their deadname should appear at most once in the article overall. Simply being credited under a name does not automatically make that credit or use of the name notable; in cases where it is lower-profile and their later work is what they're largely notable for (ie. there is little chance anyone will come across the article searching for their previous name), we should always go for B. Additionally, it is pointless to repeat the deadname multiple times - its only purpose is to reduce confusion by making it clear to editors who don't know their name was changed that this is the same person. Therefore, if the name has appeared previously in the article, we should also go with B (eg. if there is a list of attributions only the first would get a footnote.) A or E are appropriate to reduce confusion in situations where the name is notable (ie. people may come to the article by searching on it) and it has not appeared previously. --Aquillion (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - The name as credited should be present. Whether a footnote or parenthetical is needed and how the name should be treated throughout is situational. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 20:38, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Any except B or D. We owe it to readers to provide relevant information that is backed up by reliable sources. Anyone wondering how a woman named Caitlyn Jenner won a sporting event specifically for men, or why a male was cast to play a pregnant teenage girl in a movie deserve at least a cursory explanation rather than a collective shrug. Whatever means is used I don't have a strong opinion on. We should keep WP:CENSOR in mind. -R. fiend (talk) 02:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Your argument doesn't actually argue against Option B, though—that is, you don't argue that it's necessary to state anyone's deadname. Option B is compatible with providing a note saying, for example, "(Caitlyn Jenner is a transgender woman, and competed in this event while still presenting as male)", which would address the issue you raise without mentioning the not-necessarily-relevant fact of what her name was at the time. If it's necessary to provide "at least a cursory explanation", that's what a cursory explanation looks like. Stating someone's deadname is neither necessary nor sufficient for the explanation you suggest; and so the fact that such an explanation might be necessary isn't actually directly relevant to the question at hand. AJD (talk) 02:51, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I also think it's important to remember that wikipedia articles don't exist in a vacuum. Curious readers can also get an explanation for these kinds of discrepancies just by clicking on the surprising name and looking at their bio article. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 07:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option E per Floydian, Dimadick, and GoodCrossing. Tony Tan · talk 03:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B then A, or E in order of preference depending on context, with the caveat (for A or E) that their deadname should appear at most once in the article overall, as per Rhain, oulfis, Aquillion and wallyfromdilbert and many others. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 07:09, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• B > A/E > everything else: Running through this in my head with the Wachowski example, nothing but B sounds right to me at all. That implies to me that the more time passes in other cases, the more B is going to seem correct. I'd be okay with A/E especially as temporary measures shortly after the name is changed, but I suspect that eventually even footnotes or parentheticals are going to seem odd and obtrusive for an actor who's spent most of their career with their new name and only a relatively short slice with their old name. Loki (talk) 09:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• not B. I think we need to use people's current name where we can do so without causing confusion. But where it would cause confusion to not have an older name, it needs to at least be in the article. I think the best solution in each case will vary a bit. If someone changes gender (and name) on their deathbed, or even after their death (via a will or a note), I expect we might want to handle that differently than we would someone who did it early in their career. And if they changed their name as a PR stunt, we might handle that differently too. Or if they choose a symbol rather than a name, etc. All that said, I'm very sensitive to deadname issues (the issue comes up in my life a lot more than I ever would have guessed) and I work very hard indeed to not use deadnames in the real world unless needed for clarity's sake. Hobit (talk) 23:23, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• A/B/E. But among these, I oppose mandating the specific typography. That should be context-dependent; not only is it unrealistic to set a blanket rule that would apply best to every article, but remembering that kind of MoS-mandated minutia really adds up, and more than enough of my brainspace is already devoted to random MoS details. In the interest of building consensus and explaining why I favour A/B/E, I will elabourate only the facet that I think is most under-emphasized so far in this discussion: namely, the strong and consistent precedent across BLP policy and past BLP-related RfCs to prevent harm to article subjects where reasonable, and the consistent recognition that deadnames have the potential to cause harm. This is a situation where someone has asked (or could reasonably ask) for information about them to be suppressed, to the extent possible, on the basis of their personal security and comfort. That is entirely consistent with the motivation for rules like WP:BLPPRIVACY, and is also much like the many cases where BLPs have been deleted because the subject had a credible fear that the article could cause them harm (here's just one random example that I happen to remember, but there are plenty). For what it's worth, I don't think this is entirely trans-specific and believe that all of this should apply also to Muhammad Ali, but that's a matter for another RfC. - Astrophobe (talk) 06:38, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A, E we should not deadname people.A "Credited as jane doe" in a footnote or in parentesis is enough to avoid to confusing the reader. --Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 10:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E: "Elliot Page (credited as Ellen Page)". That is the only option that gives the reader the information they need in the simplest way. Sources will use both names depending on when they were written, so we need to provide both. Vpab15 (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C/F/E/A: C is preferred as I think parentheticals are too long, and people should be referred to as credited. Strongly against B/D as they will be confusing. — Twassman [Talk·Contribs] 03:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Anything but B or D Option B is simply going to be confusing to readers especially if there's something gender-specific in their history, like winning a male only award if the article refers to the person as female. Option D is also probably a bad idea for the same reason. We need to do what is the most clear for the readers, and what reliable sources say. Also, obviously, if a person isn't covered in any reliable sources as their previous name, we shouldn't use it. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 20:55, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it "confusing to readers" that the article Crossing Jordan uses Option B to list Mahershala Ali as a member of the cast, rather than the name he was credited under? If not, why would it be confusing to do the same for a trans actor who has changed their name? (The situation you mention, "winning a male only award if the article refers to the person as female", is not directly relevant to the question under discussion; mentioning the actress's former name in that situation is neither necessary nor sufficient to resolve that confusion.) AJD (talk) 01:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Changing your name is quite different than changing your entire public gender identity, especially considering that most languages (such as English) make a distinction between writing about a male versus a female. Also, it's hard to explain what a person used to be known as without saying what they were known as. Honestly, I don't really care what option is chosen as long as it's not B or D. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 23:04, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The question at issue here is only about the name, though. Also, of course "it's hard to explain what a person used to be known as without saying what they were known as"; the question is whether it's necessary to "explain what a person used to be known as" at all. AJD (talk) 16:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Please don't badger people that disagree with you. You seem to be responding to many different comments (including the one right below mine). Let's just agree to disagree on this. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 01:02, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D I am opposed to this doublethink attempt, trying to write history backwards out of mistaken political tribalism. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:19, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it an attempt to "write history backwards" to refer to Mahershala Ali as "Mahershala Ali" in the article Crossing Jordan? If not, why not? AJD (talk) 16:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Open to Option A, C, E, or F; I note here that WP:COMMONNAME can change over time. For example consider Lady Antebellum & Lady A. I am strongly opposed to options B & D. It is censorship to ignore a WP:COMMONNAME after it has become a WP:DEADNAME, or to ignore a newer WP:COMMONNAME in favor of a WP:DEADNAME. We owe it to our readers to provide both the WP:DEADNAME & new WP:COMMONAME routes to a work.

  In that regard, I think that A Clockwork Orange: Wendy Carlos's Complete Original Score, to which Walter Carlos' Clockwork Orange is a redirect, handles this reasonably well. Peaceray (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Option B For most cases, Option A for cases like Caitlyn Jenner winning men's medals. Kevinishere12 (talk) 05:33, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• There's not really any perfect answer here, but I will say coming to this RfC from Juno (film) option C or D seems like the best option to me. Our aim insofar as being an encyclopedia is to relate facts of a topic as clearly as possible and without requiring additional information. Stopping people in their tracks with a footnote explaining a years-later name change that doesn't directly relate to the content of the article itself is not serving the topic or the reader well (the examples given in this RfC of using names the actors were not credited as at the time is also a bit weird to me), and also opens up issues that go beyond COMMONNAME considerations when you consider adjusting content not in cited sources based on external factors. Option E isn't great either, but the advantage over C is that prose line clarification is arguably less disruptive to read and doesn't require clicks or jumps away from the content. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 14:06, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E (chosen name followed by parenthetical) or option A (chosen name with a footnote) for the first mention and option B (chosen name, no further explanation) for subsequent mentions. Parenthetical vs. footnote at first mention can be determined on a case-by-case basis (in e.g. infoboxes footnotes might be preferable, whereas in prose parentheticals might be better). Of course, this all assumes that the person in question was even notable under the credited name (which is likely to be the case more often than not, but not necessarily always). If that's not the case, option B is the only proper course of action. LokiTheLiar makes a good point about it being likely that mentioning the deadname will become increasingly conspicuous as time passes. At some point, mentioning the deadname will become more WP:ASTONISHING than helpful, and we're better off just substituting the chosen name at all instances (i.e. option B). My guess is that this point will usually be sometime within the first ten years, but we'll have to make that call it on a case-by-case basis, methinks.
  MOS:GENDERID says Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article. [...] This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. about gender in the article on the person; I think this is also a good approach when it comes to name in other articles.
  I don't view this as an old vs. new name situation as with Istanbul/Constantinople/Byzantium or Petrograd/Leningrad/Saint Petersburg, but rather as an incorrect vs. correct—or outdated vs. up-to-date—name situation. Examples of the latter abound in the natural sciences; we might very well say that somebody contracted HIV in 1985 or died of AIDS in 1981, even though those terms were not in use at the time and other terms were. Pneumocystis jirovecii was known as Penumocystis carinii when it was believed that the human pathogen (P. jirovecii) was the same species as the one found in rats (P. carinii); we properly refer to cases in humans prior to the name change by the correct name, not the outdated one. For a more recent example, we might—and indeed, do—say that Human-to-human transmission of SARS-CoV-2 was confirmed on 20 January 2020 (see Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2#Infection and transmission), even though the virus was known as 2019-nCoV at the time.
  Some editors seem to take an absolutist stance about not altering the names used in the credits, but I can't say I understand why. MOS:FILMCAST explicitly says All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source. The latter part is obviously what's relevant here, as it rejects the absolutist stance.
  It has already been noted that for Fast Times at Ridgemont High, we write "Nicolas Cage as Brad's Bud (credited as Nicolas Coppola)", and there are other examples of us not using the name-as-credited in our articles, especially when the name-as-credited is incorrect. Malin Åkerman is credited as "Malin Akerman" in Watchmen (well, if we want to get technical about it she's credited as "MALIN AKERMAN" in all caps, but the point is the lack of diacritics) and Robert De Niro is credited as "Robert DeNiro" (again, the actual credits use uppercase letters) in Taxi Driver and The Godfather Part II; in our articles about the films, we simply use the correct names (as indeed we should) instead of faithfully reproducing the errors in the credits. In Annie Hall, Christopher Walken is credited as "Christopher Wlaken"; in our article about the film, we correct the typo and add a footnote which points out that there was a typo in the credits. For Spice World, we write "Victoria Beckham ("Posh Spice") as herself (credited as Victoria Adams)".
  Betty Logan suggested that we cannot change the name-as-credited because it is a question of authorship rather than identification, but I find that dubious. We write "Thinner is a horror novel by American author Stephen King, published in 1984 by NAL under King's pseudonym Richard Bachman." (Thinner (novel)) and "The Burden is a novel written by Agatha Christie [...] under the nom-de-plume Mary Westmacott." (The Burden). We recognize that these names refer to the same person and that it is the person rather than the name that matters in this context. To be fair, Betty Logan goes on to talk about citing works and may have been mostly considering what we put inside reference markup rather than the text of the article, but that would then seem to be missing the point of the discussion; I haven't seen anybody arguing in favour of altering our citations (though I haven't read every single comment, so somebody might have made that argument).
  None of these examples of changing the name-as-credited seem to be all that controversial, and I don't think they should be. All in all, this goes against the absolutist stance of preserving the name-as-credited no matter what.
  Finally, I agree with Nsk92 and XOR'easter that we should ideally defer to the people to whom this applies. If they express a preference—collectively or individually—as to how to go about this, that's the approach we should be taking. For now, the above is my best guess. TompaDompa (talk) 00:08, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option F or maybe C – We should not be re-writing history. If a work was produced by John Smith, and it says "Produced by John Smith" on the package or in the credits, then that's what we should say. GA-RT-22 (talk) 04:54, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support E then A. I would be happy with either one of these, or both available as options. Strongly oppose D. In any situation, clarify the deadname ONCE then only use HARM: The criteria I care most about is the harm that use of deadnames (and therefore implicit misgendering) causes - and this extends beyond just us misgendering TG/NB people because the whole point of an encyclopaedia is that people are to use it to learn and to take that knowledge away into the world. Any harm we cause is perpetuated out into the world. If our practices allow frequent usage of deadnames, then people will assume that its a reasonable thing to do. And I have to emphasise that deadnaming/misgendering when there's any way to not do that is NOT OKAY. So, given that, my stance is to deadname as little as possible, thus option D is removed. Next, to not imply that the deadname is the preferred name - to my mind, the name placed first and without brackets OR the one in the body/not in the footnote is the implied correct option - options C & F removed (also D again technically). NOT BEING CONFUSING: We do need to actually explain why things might not line up, and this goes in both directions - atm people will be confused if they look for Elliott's deadname and get Elliott with no explanation, but given that Caitlyn Jenner has gone by Caitlyn for a while, I would genuinely take a few moments to figure out who tf her deadname was referring to. For that reason, remove B (and D again... Is it becoming clear yet why I strongly oppose it?). COMPARING WHAT REMAINS: That leaves A and E. Each have small problems. A is less clear but will cause less distress, as readers would have to check footnotes which I have never seen anyone do irl, which don't show up on link previews, and which may not be detected by some accessibility software. E is more clear, but the deadname will have more prominence so it increases the harm. I prefer E as accessibility is very important to me (lack of access introduces a new form of harm, yay!). Xurizuri (talk) 11:00, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B is completely acceptable. There's no real reason that a deadname should be necessary. Any confusion that would arise from the name being different would quickly be quashed with a simple click onto the page of the person in question. I see people drawing parallels between this and the former classification of Pluto as a planet, among other more benign things. I don't think it requires compromising the standards of the encyclopedia to acknowledge that this issue is more emotive and carries more weight than other issues of labeling. In the United States, the scientific community considered people of color to be less than human for centuries, but does that mean that we should put a footnote in Frederick Douglass' page specifying that his oppressors used to call him "it" instead of "he"? Being unobjective is bad, but accepting and capitulating to disrespectful assertions about someones identity is not objective. /Tpdwkouaa (talk) 22:01, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E for first mentions in the lede and cast sections, option A where stylistically preferable on a case by case basis (e.g. infobox, direct quotations important enough to be quoted verbatim, ledes where the actor was not starring), and option B for all other mentions. Functionally, Options C and F are equivalent to A and E, but unnecessarily prefer a deadname. The discussion shows that strictly adhering to names as credited is not required by MOS:FILMCAST, which allows the use of common names, nor applied to cisgendered actors who change their names. There may be an (IMO weak) argument for C and F on pages where the listed individuals are widely recognized included on the basis of their gender (e.g. Men's athletic competitions, Best Actress award), but the works in question in this RFC are not such pages. Additionally, D is unacceptable for the same reason that many object to B being the general rule: it could confuse future readers if they do not see the presumptive common name for the person in question. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 23:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• The valid options are B, A and E depending on context. A and E can be used for the first mention, in articles where the reader is likely to expect the credited DEADNAME, while B is the best option for following mentions and cases where the reader is unlikely to expect the initial credited name (e.g., works where new installments have been produced under the chosen name). In any case, placing deadnames prominently in these articles, such as in pipelines, is always to be avoided for reasons of ASTONISHMENT and simple respect for BLP subjects. Newimpartial (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B, with Option A or E only when needed, per LokiTheLiar. Edit: After reading TheMusicExperimental's comment below, I don't think there are actually any situations where we would need to include the deadname, so I think Option B on its own would be better (my original comment is still my second choice); after all, WP:IAR always exists for any exceptional unforseen edge cases. GreenComputer (talk) 02:39, 1 January 2021 (UTC) (edited 21:49, 30 January 2021 (UTC))[reply]
• Option B as a default, with Option E if absolutely required and/or if the author specified that they do not mind having their deadname used. KevTYD (wake up) 01:26, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C or D per David Fuchs. Readers come to an encylopedia for the plain, simply facts as to what the actor was known as within the context of the film's release as opposed to say 5 or 10 years later. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B > Option A > Option E > Options C, D, F. Using deadnames prominently in articles should be avoided as much as is possible - not doing so is not only disrespectful to the person in the article, but sets a potentially harmful precedent wherein some readers may infer from it that deadnaming is acceptable. For these reasons (and others given by others already), options C, D, and F are not appropriate. DJW (talk) 20:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option D, Option C, then Option A. Works with no sources using the new name should not be changed to reflect the new name. (Option D) If one of a singer's old songs becomes more popular years after, then consider using the new name with a footnote about how they were originally credited. (Option A) Coin (talk) 09:11, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C is preferable, but I think things are inevitably going to need to be done case by case. There's not going to be a consensus here. Stifle (talk) 09:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B, absolutely Option B. We don't include the IRL name of internet personalities who wish to keep that information private (Dril is probably the most noteworthly example for Wikipedia specifically) so it should stand to reason that a person's deadname, which 99% of the time trans people are not comfortable being referred to under any circumstances, should also not be present. For actors/writers/etc. previously credited under their deadname, add a redirect and nothing more. A person's deadname is something that should be considered private unless they explicitely say otherwise. Harmonia per misericordia. OmegaFallon (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C or E, as it's pretty standard to highlight who someone is credited as, but also detail what their WP:COMMONNAME is. Best of both worlds. — Czello 19:14, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B> Option A> Option E. per DJW96 Doglol99 (talk) 23:12, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option B, we give a pretty wide latitude to biography of living persons generally and I think in this instance it makes sense to go with the name the person prefers. Generally, if they were famous for something prior to the name change I'm most comfortable minimizing drawing attention to the individual's deadname--especially when the works in question have been released under the new name. Functionally I see this as not especially far off from women who change their name after becoming married--we rarely belabor the point that they had a different name prior to marriage or turn it into a giant cudgel in the talk section pages etc. It seems quite simple to extend that same courtesy to trans individuals on their bio pages. Thanks for putting this up, I hope it resolves and ends any number of logjams in editing pages related to the creative works and biographies of trans creative people, who certainly have a right to be referred to as they choose and our readers are just fine with that. TheMusicExperimental (talk) 05:11, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C, or F, or E. Actually, anything but B. That's simply hiding information and it clearly violates WP:NOTCENSORED (whoever argues for B should go and re-read that policy again, especially Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive‍). SFBB (talk) 05:10, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A or E, unless the name change has already been described in the article, at which point B makes sense. We should tell the reader important information but not beat them over the head with it. Binksternet (talk) 21:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion

• Minor objection to prejudicial wording. This RfC is not worded or titled neutrally; "update/updating" implies that the current guideline is obsolete, and this prejudices the question. If the heading is changed (e.g. to "RfC: changing MOS:DEADNAME on how to ..."), the original title should be put into an {{Anchor}} so that incoming links to the section do not break.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:48, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • SMcCandlish, this is my first RfC and so I apologize if I could have worded it or advertised it better, but I am not exactly sure what your concern is. I tried to word the RfC to be exactly about whether or not to update the guideline, with particular options on how to update it if that was the consensus. There was already a clear consensus on the Elliot Page talk page that bringing this RfC to MOS:DEADNAME would be more beneficial than a local consensus, and I assumed that it was evident that editors could express no change or none as opposed to one of the options. Do you have a concern or recommendation for how the actual RfC is worded? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 03:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    @Wallyfromdilbert: I agree that this should be settled with a broadly-advertised and broadly-applicable RfC (otherwise "local" disputes will continue until the end of time); that's why I've tried to spread news of it (without any editorializing, just noting that it's intended to have broad applicability). And thank you for opening the RfC at all; the back-and-forth about this, on this page and at article pages, has not been productive.

    Anyway, the concern (and I think it's a reasonable one given the amount of socio-political activism that TG/NB/GQ issues bring to Wikipedia, especially about language-reform matters) is that using "update"/"updating" implies that the current advice in MOS:DEADNAME and MOS:GENDERID is "outdated" and in need of reform to bring it into line with changed real-world norms, which is not the case. The guideline material does appear to need clarification to better answer the kinds of questions that come up, but that has nothing to do with any implied "datedness".

    My procedural objection (which I'm moving down here to "Extended discussion") was more along the lines of "please phrase more carefully next time" than "stop and fix this now", and is also intended as a note to the closer while assessing consensus. I'm not inclined personally to either go change it to "RfC: changing MOS:DEADNAME on how to ...", since I don't feel all that strongly about it; nor to add an "Option G: No change", since I do think the guideline should be clarified on the these matters, to forestall further editorial squabbling. But I wouldn't object if someone else did either or both.
     — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    SMcCandlish, I appreciate your explanation, and I understand your concern much better now. Please know that when I used the word "update", I meant it no different than whether to "revise" or "clarify" or "change" the guideline to include one of the 4 (now 6) options. I think given the responses that it is clear that the guideline is outdated in terms of the needs of Wikipedia editors who encounter these issues and would prefer some sort of sitewide guidance, and that is certainly the most important issue here. In my own personal editing, I would rather just have a guideline that I can generally rely on than engage in all these separate discussions about the same issue. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    "in terms of the needs of Wikipedia editors who encounter these issues and would prefer some sort of sitewide guidance" – Yes, indeedy.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Much as I don't want to, I feel compelled to object to this objection. To suggest that "update/updating" ... prejudices the question strikes me as complete bollocks: editors are routinely expected to put up with much more biased wording than is represented by the difference between updated and changed, and in any case this is a topic where the MOS does not offer any guidance and is in need, as the ArbCom candidate says, of clarification.

  While I recognize their strongly-held personal concern about any suggestion that the current advice in MOS:DEADNAME and MOS:GENDERID is "outdated" and in need of reform to bring it into line with changed real-world norms, which is not the case, this is in fact only their personal view, with (by now) a certain amount of real-world evidence against it and no clear WP consensus for it. An RfC whose wording reflected said personal view would thus be likely to be less neutral than the current one, rather than more. Newimpartial (talk) 03:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  That's an interesting take on it. I'm not finding much to disagree with or leap to vociferous agreement about. "only [my] personal view": Well, of course. I'm not able to channel the views of others by magical powers. :-) That is, I don't see the utility of making an "that's just your opinion" observation about something that is by its very nature clearly just an opinion.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Edits like this one or this one don't do a great job of communicating clearly just an opinion to most readers, IMO, which is why I've tried to FTFY in my own seldom-imitated way. Newimpartial (talk) 05:08, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  What I mean is that someone raising an objection is, by the nature of it being an objection, expressing a strong opinion; that's all. Just nit-pick stuff. I don't have a big argument against your gist, even if it's not inspiring me to jump on any bandwagon. I'm just taking it rather neutrally at face value. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• [This is a reply to SMcCandlish's original !vote in the comments section.]
  SMcCandlish, this is in response specifically to your two side points—there's a few other things on my mind regarding the points you brought up, but I'm tired enough as it is, and apologizes if I say something dumb or poorly thought out because of that:
  1. I'm not sure I can agree with this. Deadnaming is seen as hostile, and can alienate not only the subject, but readers as well into feeling left out as a member of society.
  2. I may be missing the point, but a citation about an individual and a reference to an individual in prose are different, and this RfC is mostly asking about the latter. If a cited paper or article deadnames an individual, then it should be quoted as such in the citation (likely with a [sic], too). When referencing an individual in prose, there's no need to refer to them by their deadname. For example, assuming the journal cited published the paper before Jane came out: Jane O'Foobar's PhD thingamajig solved the Riemann hypothesis.<ref>O'Foobar, Grace [optional sic, context depending] (2020). "A really cool thingamajig".</ref>. I can't imagine any other reason why deadnaming would be necessary.

  Perryprog (talk) 03:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Perryprog: On point 1: That's certainly true when it comes to things like social media posts, and maybe even a lot of current-events news writing, but it's not applicable to archival of historical facts, which is basically what an encyclopedia is. No one already famous as Janet Doodah has a privacy interest in complete suppression of that name from, and a rewriting of history in, the effective public record, if they later go by Joseph Doodah. Otherwise, WP would simply ban all use of all prior names of TG/NB/GQ people, including birth names of the most famous among them, etc. But all proposals anywhere vaguely in that direction have been clearly rejected, and surely always will be, because of what WP is, what it does, and why it exists.

    On point 2, you seem to be forgetting that we often have to attribute sources inline in the prose (e.g. when directly quoting them, when closely paraphrasing them, when presenting primary-research or other primary-source claims they make, etc.). If the person is not notable – they're just a name attached as the author on a paper – WP neither has a reason nor, effectively, an ability to change it. Again, the only purpose of the name being mentioned is for source identification, and the name is not directly tied to any person's life and identity in an applicable way. This won't even come up much, because we usually just cite by surname in such cases: "According to a study by a Princeton University research team (MacDoofus 2020, p. 27) ...". There absolutely is a reason to refer to the deadname here: it is the name on the source we're citing (nor can we be sure of any claimed identification between that author and some other person; WP:BLPPRIV and WP:NOR and WP:OUTING should be interpreted as ruling out any attempt to "research one out" for a non-notable author we've cited. If they are notable, then they're already covered by the more usual approach we have to old names.

    This is also different from mention of non-notable, BLPPRIV, persons as minor subjects in articles (e.g. as victims of crimes, as non-notable siblings of a notable person, etc.: we never have any reason to use their deadnames at all. Except probably in the cases at issue in this RfC, e.g. non-notable actors credited in a TV show cast.

    What I'm trying to convey here is that BLPPRIV, etc., work bidirectionally: We want to protect the privacy of non-notable individuals mentioned on WP under their current names, by not mentioning their old names (or not mentioning pre-notability ones of notable people in most cases). However, if their deadname is necessarily going to be mentioned, because it's the name on a paper we're citing, and the person is not notable, they have an equal-but-opposite BLPPRIV interest in not having that old name associated on WP with their current one, by us going around and saying their new-name identity is the author of the old-name work – something we can't be certain of without OR in the first place. If this still isn't clear: When we cite sources, we do not do background research on the identities and private lives of the authors. It is always and necessarily going to be the case that our citations are going to contain deadnames of non-notable people. Some sources we cite have 30+ authors on them, and some of our articles cite 100+ sources.
     — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The RfC text says "While we ordinarily keep a person's name the same as the credit in the previous work such as a film when they have subsequently changed their name". That does not seem to be true in general, even for people who have changed their names for reasons other than being transgender! For example: the article Crossing Jordan lists Mahershala Ali among the cast, with literally no mention of the name he was credited by, Mahershalalhashbaz Ali; List of One Life to Live cast members does the same for Phylicia Rashad, not mentioning Phylicia Ayers-Allen; A Dangerous Man: Lawrence After Arabia lists "Alexander Siddig (as Siddig El-Fadil)", following the pattern of Option E in this RfC. It's far from the case that even cisgender actors are always listed in Wikipedia cast lists under the name by which they were credited, rather than the name by which they were later known. AJD (talk) 05:14, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah; I find it fascinating how certain editors (Extended discussion company excluded) pull the "butt muh creditz" argument out of ___________ when it comes to gender-related name changes, but would never bother to verify that names in cast lists are preserved holy and pure from non-gender-related name changes. Hmmmm. Newimpartial (talk) 05:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  The credits argument is based on WP:FILMCAST and WP:TVCAST guidelines. The fact that some articles don't conform to the existing guidelines doesn't set a precedent to ignore them. Most likely something slipped though that shouldn't have and just got missed. What normally seems to happen is when anyone changes their name, some editor goes through the credits and changes names to the new one. They should be left as credited and the redirect at the old name is sufficient to point to the correct person article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 05:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, actually, WP:FILMCAST says All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source. By definition, the names we are talking about for Trans people are the common name supported by a reliable source. Newimpartial (talk) 05:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  The common name for film cast is what the majority of contemporaneous reliable sources support. Generally that is used when someone appears who is not in the credits. For the starring section of the infobox we look to the billing block of the official poster for the names per what is stated in the infobox template instructions. Geraldo Perez (talk) 05:53, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  What is your policy-compliant basis for what the majority of contemporaneous reliable sources support - that isn't the usual meaning of "common name". And infobox template instructions are not a reliable source. Newimpartial (talk) 05:56, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Infobox instructions are the same as any other content guideline, that is why we have them, to explain what to put in infoboxes and they are generally followed the same as any other content guideline. The usual meaning of common name is what the majority of reliable sources say the name is. WP:COMMONNAME - "the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)" in the context of a film would apply to the time of the film release. Geraldo Perez (talk) 06:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't understand why the "time of the film release" is relevant. Is that part of a guideline or consensus somewhere because a link to that would be helpful? In the case of the Wachowskis, some of their earlier works credited to "the Wachowski brothers" were later rereleased under the name "the Wachowskis". It would seem a little nonsensical to say that we should ignore that more recent information entirely. I also don't know why we would ignore sources such as books and journal articles that are normally not available at the time of the release but are usually far higher quality sources than those that are available at the time of release. If they happen to consistently use a different common name for an individual, then it seems using the credited name would actually be far more confusing than using the common name that most people would recognize. AJD seems to have provided some good examples of where that type of rule may not the best for us to follow. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 06:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  An infobox's /doc page isn't "a... content guideline". WP:GUIDELINE has a particular meaning on WP. They certainly do have a consensus level if more than a handful of people have been participating in their formation, to be sure (and sometimes I-box details even get VPPOL RfCs on particular points). But if there's a conflict between a guideline or policy and a /doc, the former takes precedence per WP:CONLEVEL. If there is such a conflict it should be ironed out pretty quickly, though that doesn't necessarily mean just rewriting the /doc; there may be a consensus discussion that's arrived at a conclusion not anticipated in the guideline discussions, so it may be something to bring up on the guideline page for clarification there.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, Geraldo; it's this the time of the film release business of yours that seems to be OR. And if you can show me that film infobox guidelines carry the same level of editor participation and policy-informed discussion as MOS:GENDERID and MOS:DEADNAME, I'll eat a (soft leather) boot. Newimpartial (talk) 06:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed, but see above. If there's an actual conflict between them, it should get resolved, not allowed to fester, and the resolution isn't necessarily one-way only, though biased strongly by CONLEVEL in one direction.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  MOS:GENDERID says to "give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources," and WP:COMMONNAME says "When [a change of name] occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change." Given that, I read the guidance in FILMCAST as saying that we should use either the credited name or the WP:COMMONNAME-compliant title, which in this case would be the post-transition name. Thus FILMCAST doesn't rule out any of the given options, which makes it not particularly helpful or relevant. 2601:14D:4180:F5A0:CD56:C843:5B95:949B (talk) 06:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Ajd, thanks for that additional information. I was trying to be as neutral as possible, but that obviously is going to be biased by my limited experience. I will replace my initial adjective with "sometimes" and link to this discussion, as it seems beneficial. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 06:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Hmm. This (Ajd's main post we're replying to) strikes me as broad over-generalization from isolated incidents to general classes. Our article text, of course, is not fixed and finished, but a highly randomized work-in-progress by whoever drops by today. There will always be cases where cast lists and such have errors in them, either by people who don't care, or don't know better, or who are defiant and want things done their way (often its a case of mistaking WP:COMMONNAME for a content/style policy rather than a titles policy – a frequent but mistaken belief that how we refer to someone at their own article is how they must be named in every case at every article, in every context in every page – that has obvious applicability to this larger discussion).

  It doesn't indicate in any way that the general class of people working on this kind of material in earnest (WikiProject Films, WikiProject Television, etc.) don't care, or aren't competent, or are applying a double standard (much less that they're conspiring against trans people). I find that really not credible, given that very little of the media content we collectively write about is right-leaning and thus mostly written by rightist editors who have a jingoistic bias against trans people (I guess an exception might be pro wrestling?). We're seeing a lot of pointed overgeneralizations like this in our daily political sphere as it is, and they're not very helpful. Its a semi-subtle ad hominem that distracts from focus on the question/issue, to instead dwell on who's (often nebulized as a "them") saying what about it and whether their actions are in perfect compliance with an ideal.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Using the common name of someone is directly cited in the MOS such as WP:FILMCAST. The content about what a common name means contained in WP:COMMONNAME also seems relevant to understanding that term means when it is used elsewhere in our policies and guidelines. I don't think there is any sort of ill-willed conspiracy, but I do think there is an issue with people being overly concerned with gender-related changes to a person's name compared to other name changes. For example, one comment above is explicitly opposed to changing the name of credits when they are involve gender (such as "Ellen" to "Elliot") but not when the change is "gender-neutral" (from "the Wachowski brothers" to "the Wachowskis"). If you have examples of articles that provide a different approach than Ajd, then that may be helpful to include. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 10:39, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Sure, I don't think it's a conspiracy either; there are just people with a my-way-or-the-highway attitude who don't even properly read the guidelines and policies (if read them at all; see later thread on this page for example). I think until we've had a lot more discussions like this (and more of them are high-level, well-advertised ones) that we're going to keep getting inconsistent results. E.g., it's not film/TV wikiproject people who wanted "the Wachowskis" used across-the-board. Most of them would have preferred something like "the Wachowski Brothers (now the Wachowskis)", or "the Wachowskis (credited as the Wachowski Brothers)", or whatever, when it comes to old media like The Matrix. But we had a "local consensus" situation there calling for one special result for one specific instance, and many people feel "invested" in that result, so they'll interfere a bit with site-wide solutions (and people who were opposed to that particular decision are apt to also oppose other ones in a similar but different vein, maybe out of reflex more than principle). The more local "special pleading" we have on a case-by-case basis, the harder it is to arrive at site-wide answers. Not just on this but on a lot of things. E.g., I wandered into a 16-year dispute about capitalization and hyphenation of a particular technical eponym (still an ongoing dispute), despite MoS having general principles that already cover this stuff consistently; and now some proponents of that variation, which is not even backed up in general-audience or academic literature as anything but a minority usage, are up in arms about MoS not codifying their alleged exception. This kind of "fight to the death, article by article" stuff is corrosive. It was also behind the "infobox wars" that had to go to ArbCom multiple times, and many similar mass disputes on Wikipedia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I see how giving a list of three examples could be construed as me just cherry-picking potentially isolated examples of pages that happen not to conform to a stylistic standard. In fact, they are literally just three of the first four examples I could think of of cisgender actors who were notable under a prior name. The fourth, full disclosure, is Meredith Baxter, who is listed by her credited name Meredith Baxter-Birney in the cast list of the article Family Ties, but by her current name elsewhere in the article. So, it's a small sample, but fact that three out of the first four cisgender actors who I could think of who've changed their names are credited under their new names in articles about work done under their old names, and the fourth is at least referred to by her new name, is evidence that Wikipedians by and large don't seem to have any problem referring to actors by names they adopted later in articles about work done earlier. AJD (talk) 07:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Purely on stylistic grounds we should avoid putting information which can be given concisely in a footnote. It makes it harder for the reader to gain the information we are trying to convey and reduces readability. This would rule out A and C. I have expressed a preference above for B and E where explicitly needed to avoid confusion as I believe B gives the reader the relevant information most simply. SPACKlick (talk) 10:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Interesting that nowhere in the discussion do I see the privacy issues raised by WP:BLP. Some people may be quite open with their name change as a result of transitioning, and some people may want to protect the privacy of their lives. If I were to offer an opinion I would agree that the issue is situational and one should default to protecting the privacy of the individual. - kosboot (talk) 12:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  My !vote and several of my extended-discussion comments get into BLPPRIV matters (including that they mostly do not apply to notable people who were notable under both names, and that they apply in two directions at once (one of which most people never think of) when it comes to names of non-notable people (or pre-notability and not-widely-published old name of the notable). Given that RfCs usually run 30 days, and this issue is a cause célèbre that is going to bring a tsunami of input, assumptions that a point has not be raised are unlikely to be true (or remain true for long). :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I really don't feel like privacy is the main issue here? The main issue is that referring to trans people by a deadname is considered by most trans people to be offensive and insulting, regardless of whether it's a violation of their privacy. AJD (talk) 07:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure why you're putting a question mark at the end of a statement. Anyway, the fact that a lot of people in these debates are not clearly thinking through every implication of their off-the-cuff initial arguments (grounded, frankly, in rather dogmatic, polarized, and overgeneralizing "stance-taking") is precisely why I'm getting into what they're missing, including the fact that zeal with regard to deadnames is easily going to turn into the very kind of BLP violation we're trying to avoid, when applied to certain situations. This is actually complicated, more so that most participants have been realizing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:14, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't many are arguing this isn't complicated or that there cannot be exceptions in the very minimal number of circumstances that could result in some kind of BLP violation by not dead-naming someone. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 07:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  And ...? Whether you personally agree with me or not, that many people in these debates are not considering these points, has no bearing on whether I may raise them to make sure that they do get considered.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:46, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• As another point of reference, I will note that when we have companies behind works that later undergo name changes (with the biggest recent one being 20th Century Fox to 20th Century Studios), we do not retrospectively change the name of the company in those previously released works at all, and only mention the new name if there is newer information that involves the renamed company. Now I realize we are talking BLPs here which we do have a higher regard for privacy, rights, and the like, but what's being proposed is very much inconsistent with how we do this in any other case (as as pointed out above, same with pre-marriage names). Again, nearly all cases that would come into play here involve people notable by their original name before they transitioned and opted for a new name, so the core concern of DEADNAME is already not valid. --Masem (t) 06:41, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  How do you feel about the Eris and bohrium examples I brought up above? AJD (talk) 07:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  At least in reviewing a quick scan of the articles in question it is a different situation: they are not entities that gave themselves names, and it was a brief period before the body that granted official names gave the final version over the unofficial one, as opposed to a name that has been widely used for several years. So the situations are rather different. A comparable situation would be if we were talking about the number planets in the Solar System, if the historical context was at a time before Pluto was de-planeted, we would still use 9 or speak to Pluto as a planet (a point we had for decades), while if we're talking in general terms or any present context, only consider 8 plaents. --Masem (t) 14:21, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  As far as I can tell, the name unnilseptium was used for about 18 years before the name bohrium was agreed upon (and, had Wikipedia existed, it would have been considered notable for all of that time). Elliot Page seems to have been notable under his former name for about 23 years. That is not a huge difference in terms of being "widely used for several years". The fact that bohrium isn't an entity that gave itself a name and Elliot Page is is reason to give more deference to Page's new name, not less as you seem to be arguing. (I thought about using Pluto's status as an example but I want to stick strictly to names, to have comparable examples. There's probably something about Brontosaurus we could use, though.) AJD (talk) 15:38, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  The point is that in all other cases when the article is from an historical perspective or where it is in historical context, we don't "update" names or changed facts from how they were presented in that historical context; in articles where there is present or present-looking-past perspective, we do. Clyde Tombaugh should remain noted as discovering the "planet" of Pluto (the de-planeting happening far after his lifetime), while Solar System should describe that Pluto was once but no longer a planet given that is a present article. In the case of Page here, the bio page is a "present" article, but film pages like Inception are "past" ones and should reflect how everything was reported at the past. --Masem (t) 13:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  But that isn't actually what we do. The second sentence of Clyde Tombaugh, for example, is At the time of discovery, Pluto was considered a planet, but was reclassified as a dwarf planet in 2006. The contribution of Elliot Page, as a BLP subject, to Juno (film) deserves at least the degree of consideration and specificity (if not detail) awarded to a minor astronomical body. Newimpartial (talk) 13:59, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Anyway, all our articles have a present or "present-looking-past" perspective; we strive to give our readers accurate information about past events and artifacts based on what is known about them now. AJD (talk) 15:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  It's a false equivalence: companies never ask that you stop using their old name in any instance, whereas that is the default in this situation, even with, as noted above, people who change their name for other reasons. SportingFlyer T·C 10:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  And while there are some BLP that ask us to do certain things for their articles (like in some cases, not have articles on them), we don't make exceptions as long as the information follows the BLP standards. We do take non-notable deadnames seriously, but it is impossible to ask us to bury readily notable ones as Page's, since that's asking us to wipe information that is also readily available in all the sources that we have used up to that point. --Masem (t) 14:21, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Arguments about wiping ... information that is also readily available ... in the sources might offer sound reasons to object to option B, but have absolutely nothing to contribute to the choice between A, D, E and F, nor do they provide any support for offering less information to our readers (C).

  Also, to take up the example of Pluto again, we are not burying information by not providing (widely considered a planet from 1930 to 2006) every time Pluto is mentioned in an historical context. The fact is relevant at the Planets#Additions by other composers and is mentioned there, but the former planetary status of Pluto is not buried each time an article does not mention it. So placing the actor's former name in a footnote or parenthesis certainly does not bury anything. (The reader may detect some contained frustration on my part at the poor alignment between facts and arguments in certain quarters of this discussion. I apologize for the bleed-through.) Newimpartial (talk) 16:13, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I think it's pretty obvious that "bury" in this sense is related to that in "don't bury the lede", and doesn't mean "effectively eliminate from the world". That is, the concern about "burying" in footnotes (rather than keeping in inline parentheticals) is that most readers do not look at footnotes, and may not even realize that one might contain such information rather than citation data. We have MOS:BOLDSYN for a very clear reason: make sure – immediately, up-front, and unmistakably – that the reader understands they've arrived at the correct article. So, footnotes may make sense for things like entries in lists, but they make much less sense for article leads, when the subject's old name either dates to within their notability period, or is so frequently mentioned in sources that we can expect various readers to arrive at the article by searching for that name not the current one.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Option B only. Trans people just want to exist. They want to be able to say who they are without a bunch of dudes saying "well, actually". Also, I am saddened but not surprised that there are Wikipedians arguing for option D, which is what transphobic hate sites do. I would prefer Wikipedia to not become a transphobic hate site. rspεεr (talk) 06:47, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]