Rod of Seven Parts

Rod of Seven Parts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This fictional rod has no real world notability outside of the D&D Greyhawk in world setting. There is no information regarding this fictional object independent of the subject causing a failure of WP:FICT. Additionally, real world notability cannot be established whatsoever. Additionally, this is and always will be nothing but plot information from D&D without any relevance or notability in the real world. Pilotbob (talk) 06:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Hmm, isn't four weeks an exceptionally brief period to leave between nominations for deletion? But taking this on face value, let's look at what we have. An artifact described in Gygax's first TSR dungeon supplement and one of the tiny few to have appeared in all three editions of the D&D DM guide (there's your real world significance right there). Could use more sourcing. I think a merge to some sutable target would be acceptable but deletion would remove significant information about D&D. I'd honestly back a keep here because it shouldn't be too difficult to find more real world context. D&D isn't that insular these days. --Tony Sidaway 07:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Keep Disruptive repetition per Renominations. Nominator may also be gaming the system by nominating on Christmas Eve. Perhaps nominator's account should be blocked during the Christmas period? As for the article in question, it has good notability and sources. The deletion proposal is really just Bah, humbug! :) Colonel Warden (talk) 09:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete unless someone can show how this article will have real world context and not fail WP:Plot. 11:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC) (unsigned comment by Ridernyc at 11:58, 24 December 2007 BOZ (talk) 18:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC))[reply]
• Speedy Keep as per Colonel Warden. Also Comment: I don't think this qualifies Pilotbob for a block. The first AfD was from someone different (though he voted "strong delete"), and it's the only AfD he made today (he made three, I take this back, he should be watched, but not outright blocked). If it stays that way I don't see the disruptive intent. --Arcanios (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, it's bad form to renom so quickly, but while we're here I think that it's worth pointing out that this particular artefact does not appear to have any notability outside of the D&D universe. Wikipedia is WP:NOT a roleplaying source book. Lankiveil (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC).[reply]
• Weak Keep with the proviso that it needs to be expanded and/or cleaned up to a great extent. The article is marginally sourced, but while the primary sources of the original game guides are only evidence of the fictional items existence, notability is barely established by the Dragon Magazine article. No, it's not the New York Times or WSJ or New England Journal of Medicine, but within the context of D&D, Dragon Magazine is the pre-eminent periodical. (e.g. a featured article about a game in PC Gamer is a starting point for notability about a video or computer game, likewise a featured article in Dragon Magazine is a starting point for an article relating to D&D fictional subjects).

Now, all of that said, it is only a START and enough for me to say the article should be given a chance to be improved, but this does not at all mean I feel it's enough in the long term for a wikipedia article. This needs work, serious work, in demonstrating a unique notability of the subject within the confines of the D&D category. Is this the ONLY item of it's kind to continuously be referred to over decades? Is it the MOST WELL KNOWN example of such a fictional item? And beyond all of that, can evidence of its special nature be demonstrated and footnoted beyond one secondary source to a small print fan magazine? Otherwise we're back to playing with the Pokemon Test, where any and all game items try to base their notability on the existence of this, let's be honest, very weak article. It should be kept since some people have shown a willingness to improve it so far, but this is a sorry article in need of a great deal of work. Six months from now if I saw an AfD on this article with few improvements or no better sources, I would happily shift my opinion to a strong delete. My "Weak Keep" is based on potential, not actual, value (apologies for wordiness) -Markeer 13:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, if not Speedy Keep per those who have already voted that way. BOZ (talk) 15:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep No reason to think that consensus about deleting this article has changed since the last AfD, which wasn't long ago at all. Rray (talk) 18:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• comment As a reminder, that 'past concensus' was: 'no concensus'.

• Speedy Keep per Colonel Warden. Pilotbob's a sore loser, it seems.--Robbstrd (talk) 23:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep; I don't know how you can say that "any and all game items [will] try to base their notability on the existence of this"; its history is unique. There are very few if any other game items that have its 30 year history.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment That's great, and I happen to agree with you, but if that's the case, it needs to be stated in the article with meaningful citations as evidence that it's true. "Everyone knows this is true" is not a valid argument on wikipedia. This encyclopedia is not about what's true, it's about what can be verified. -Markeer 13:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - this was resolved not more than 4 weeks ago. The nominating editor is trying to make some sort of point and is going beyond the realms of being civil. If you need more reasons why it should be kept, copy and paste all the reasons we gave last time, they are all still valid. Web Warlock (talk) 00:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• comment all the 'keep' reasons given last time were not enough to provide a concensus for 'keep'. And there has also been time, admittedly not a great amount of time, for those who supported 'keeping' the article to find independent sources that would make the article meet WP:N, yet none have surfaced.

• Keep. On the previous AfD I took a "weak delete" line, but this renomination reeks of WP:POINT. --Paularblaster (talk) 02:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong, speedy keep - and nominator should be warned of WP:POINT violation. [Added afterward]: The closing admin. will probably note that several of the "Keep" !votes, including my own, primarily mention the potential WP:POINT violation as a justification for speedily closing this discussion. There are, however, enough ignoring the obvious bad form and commenting on the article itself, which is a good thing, and there are still significant keep-favoring editors either way. I also want to add "per my arguments in the last AfD" for the record. ◄Zahakiel► 04:55, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural speedy keep Per above. Jtrainor (talk) 05:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• delete as said, its bad form to renominate so quickly, but that doesnt change the facts RogueNinja_talk 09:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - fairly high profile fantasy thingy over at least a 20 year period. i.e. notable cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:32, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete a fictional gaming item with no sources outside of the official gaming merchandise - no real world significance. WP is NOT a gaming guide.207.69.137.39 (talk) 15:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  Why does everyone seem to be using "game guide" to mean stuff about games nowadays, when it means "how-to"s for games? --Kizor _{is in a constant state of flux} 20:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no real world significance or WP:RS outside of the source books for the game, what is it other than game guide? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.8 (talk) 01:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• delete I've played the game for years and still it's only WP:Notable for D&D players and fans a small subset of the general public. Wikipedia is not a guide and this can be found in the Dungeon Master's Guide or at an external Wiki like D&D Wiki. Refer to the deletion discussions surrounding the Star Wars individual items and Wookiepedia. Star Wars individual items and minor characters has much greater and wider general appeal and did not survive much of those AfD arguments so why should this badly written stub about a D&D specific magic item survive? This item fails the WP:PTEST and at best could be included in a D&D Magic Items page. Alatari (talk) 17:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Sources were provided during previous Afd. Edward321 (talk) 19:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• comment while there are now primary sources, there are no independent sources needed to satisfy WP:N.

• Procedural speedy keep regardless of article merits - which I'm in favor of, anyway - renominating rapidly with the same arguments in the same situation bases decisions on tenacity and luck, rather than article merit. That's not something that Wikipedia can withstand. Local specialists, volunteers all, cannot be expected to work on the topic in such conditions; "work on" includes making sure the quality of the topic is maintained and dealing with the problems that caused AfDs in the first place. To admonish and then allow it will still be in favor of it. --Kizor _{is in a constant state of flux} 20:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• comment if the original AfD had been a concensus 'keep' the procedural issues of a renomination within a short period of time would have a lot of weight, but the last nomination did not end in a concensus 'keep' and procedure should not be given more weight than the fact that this article still does not meet guidelinse such as third party sources supporting notability

• The procedural issues about not renominating in a short period of time are all about not rehashing things, whether the result is keep or no consensus. Note that if WP were a bureaucracy, everyone would have been out of the office on Monday.--Prosfilaes (talk) 13:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy keep Renominating for the exact same reasons in so short a time is highly unusual. In any case, this is one of the iconic artifacts in Dungeons and Dragons from the very early editions and is significant enough to merit an article. --Polaron | Talk 03:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy KeepDelete votes based on an imaginary distinction between the "real world" and the shared reality of published fiction and games are misquided. Notability is the issue, and there are countless articles on Wikipedia that are properly here and which are of interest to far smaller groups than the D&D player community. (The D&D player community, though, probably does not need this article, it is for the rest of us, so that we might understand some possible literary or other allusion -- perhaps a conversation we hear -- to the Rod of Seven Parts.) Repeated AfD in a short period is abusive, wasting a great deal of editor time to defend articles that could be spent improving them.--Abd (talk) 05:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• comment notability is clearly an issue here, and the article has ZERO third party references to support the claims that this fictional item is noable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.11 (talk) 05:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - actually, that is not true. Dragon is now a third party publication, RPGNet is an industry leading website for critical (and not-so critical) discussions. There are other references, not yet footnoted but in the article, that are also third-party. Web Warlock (talk) 16:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Keep per Col Warden. Enough is enough with these mass Afds, guys. Give it a rest, eh? Iquander (talk) 19:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]