The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Obituaries written by independent RS are perfectly valid sources. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 10:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bilqees Khanum[edit]

Bilqees Khanum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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All references are about the article person's death only. WP:NOTMEMORIAL clearly says " Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements." Twinkle1990 (talk) 10:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Pakistan. Twinkle1990 (talk) 10:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't the issue is a lack of notability, but the article should be speedy deleted as a copyright violation, with very close paraphrasing from here, e.g.

• Article:"However, she continued to perform at private concerts as she begin to support her family financially and funding the education of her younger sisters and brothers. According to Bilqees that she was deprived of education due to her family's financial situation so she wanted her younger siblings to achieved higher education. When television started in Lahore at that time Bilqees was already an established radio singer and didn't have to audition to get an opportunity on television. She started her singing career on Pakistan Television with a Punjabi song, and then went on to sing many national songs during the 1965 war."
• Source:"However, she continued to perform at private concerts as she was supporting her family financially and funding the education of her brothers. She had been deprived of education because of her family’s financial hardship. By the time television started in Lahore, Bilqees, was an established radio singer and didn’t have to audition to get an opportunity on television. She started her singing career on Pakistan Television with a Punjabi song, and then went on to sing many national songs during the 1965 war."

I've tagged the article for speedy deletion as a copyvio. Fram (talk) 10:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• But tagging CSD over an AFD is suitable? Twinkle1990 (talk) 11:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Sure, why not? Either it gets speedy deleted, and the AfD closed as no longer applicable: or the speedy gets rejected, and the AfD can continue. The arguments for both are different, the AfD can't overrule the speedy, but a declined speedy wouldn't make the AfD invalid or useless. Fram (talk) 11:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Fine then. After all found a spam here. I am surprised that the article was patrolled by a NPP. How that NPP can be so irresponsible in patrolling the page. Twinkle1990 (talk) 11:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Twinkle1990 (talk) 11:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The copyvio has been removed from the article, leaving a much shorter but copyvio-free stub. I have struck my speedy delete recommendation accordingly, and the AfD can now continue on the WP:N merits of the subject. Fram (talk) 12:17, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: (edit conflict) Fram is right about the copyright infringement, but that infringement does not go right back to the earliest versions of the article, and the speedy deletion policy requires that in this situation "earlier versions without infringement should be retained". I have therefore reverted to the last version before an editor started the process of editing the copyright-infringing material into the article. That leaves the article as little more than a stub, with three references two of which are, as Twinkle1990 says, announcements of her death, and the other is a 3-sentence expression of a point of view, and certainly not substantial coverage of her. I have not checked for other coverage of her, so I have no idea whether she satisfies the notability guidelines. JBW (talk) 12:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Even so, considering recent changes in the article this doesn't confer to notability. That reference just passing mention only. Twinkle1990 (talk) 12:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Am I personally responsible for the copyright infringement mentioned in the notice on my talk if I had no involvement or knowledge of the copyrighted content that was added? Ainty Painty (talk) 12:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ainty Painty: No, the copyright infringement was nothing to do with you, and you have no responsibility for that. You were informed of the deletion discussion because you created the article, so that you can take part in this discussion if you wish to, but that doesn't mean that every issue anyone may raise here is necessarily anything to do with you. JBW (talk) 12:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: It's again a total mess as BookishReader just added the same reference Fram reported for CV. Twinkle1990 (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reference wasn't the issue, the use of unchanged or barely changed text from that reference was a problem. Readding that source (assuming it is a reliable source) is not an issue and doesn't create a mess. Fram (talk) 12:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Fram That is the URL from which heavy content was copied. Twinkle1990 (talk) 12:58, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep - Passes WP:GNG. Obituaries are good indication of notability, otherwise thousands of people die daily in Pakistan. All mainstream and reliable national newspapers covered her death's news and even the prime minister of Pakistan offered condolence over her death and she is still not notable? Also keep in mind her career was in the pre-internet era and lot of coverage in the local press has been lost. Anyway, here are more sources for her: Pakistan Film Magazine, Radio Pakistan (Urdu), Youlin Magazine (already cited and gives pretty good biographical details), Daily Times (SIGCOV). The article can be improved and expanded. Insight 3 (talk) 13:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Insight 3 all your links given are just memorial only. And Wikipeidia is WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Twinkle1990 (talk) 13:18, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  "... Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements and you seriously think bio of this singer falls into it? The articles mentioned above have not been written by her friends or relatives, but by independent persons. You are just overlooking the facts about her notability. Insight 3 (talk) 13:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Read "Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements." Twinkle1990 (talk) 13:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at this AfD, the comments about the readded source and so on, and the rejection of Draft:Wojciech Sumliński and Draft:Gharib (film) today, I think what needs to happen is not the deletion of this article here, but a good look at Twinkle1990s rights. Other recent draft rejections seem very strict as well (e.g. Draft:Giovanni and the Hired Guns, Draft:Sheila Hill (writer)). They have today requested Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/New page reviewer, I hope it gets rejected as way premature. Fram (talk) 13:39, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply - Fram I have AfDed the article, you went ahead for CSD(failed CSD) and now you are brining offtopic discussion. Strange. Twinkle1990 (talk) 13:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I have figured a notablity issue per the table bellow
  

Source assessment table:
Source	Independent?	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
Dawn	~ Mention only	Reliable	Passing mention only	✘ No
Youlin Magazine	? Unknown	Unknown	~ Death new coverage	✘ No
The News International	Yes	Yes	~ Death new coverage	~ Partial
The Express Tribune	Yes	Yes	Death new coverage	✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

Twinkle1990 (talk) 13:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep, easily passes our notability guidelines, very good sources available. Nom doesn't seem to understand NOTMEMORIAL and the difference between family-submitted obituaries (or obits about non-notable victims of notable events), and journalistic obituaries showing exactly the notability of the subject. Fram (talk) 14:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Fram you first commented for speedy delete and then you triggered CSD. And now you are blaming me under cover of an IP user? Sigh. I am just feeling annoyed. Shame! Please be civil. Twinkle1990 (talk) 14:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• The IP is not me, but someone else. Fram (talk) 14:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't include the sources I mentioned above and which you dismissed as "memorial only". Also take a look at WP:PKRS to improve your knowledge about Pakistani sources. Insight 3 (talk) 15:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I do not speak or read Urdu and know that sourcing might not be online for a 1968 song, but if her death was covered it stands to reason she was a notable musician and sourcing exists. Star Mississippi 16:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong KEEP After looking at all the news coverage and obituaries of this Pakistani classical music singer, I am convinced she was a notable person, especially when the news coverage is by 3 different independent newspapers and a magazine. Ngrewal1 (talk) 01:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. She had a nice voice...and all the above. Desertarun (talk) 15:16, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep notable musician. Bruxton (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.