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Resolved

 – There is no consensus to lift DemolitionMan's topic ban on British Raj related articles at this time. EdJohnston (talk) 14:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Following a WP:AN thread a couple of months ago, DemolitionMan (talk · contribs) was placed on a topic ban on British Raj related articles. This followed a RFC and a a previous editing restriction confirmed here. On the last thread it was stated that the restriction would be reviewed in two months time, now. I'm looking for a consensus of opinion on whether the topic ban can be lifted, or should remain. Thanks. Leithp 21:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A quick review of the editors contribution history shows very little editing since the topic ban anyway, so lifting the topic ban shouldn't be troublesome - unless they return to the previous editing problems (in which case it is re-imposed longer/pernanently). I would point out that I was involved in some previous discussions - and may be included in some of the links, but haven't bothered clicking them - as a fairly neutral party. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the topic ban could be lifted if DemolitionMan is willing to express willingness to follow policies and abide by any community restrictions. One of the links above suggests he never recognized the 1RR as actually applying to him. In the thread about the topic ban he does not seem to recognize any problems with his editing or any desire to cooperate in the future. For a recent nationalist POV edit on Kashmir see [1], for which his edit summary was 'rv vandalism.' EdJohnston (talk) 16:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And on the talkpage: I don't think that he's quite ready to acknowledge that changes in his editing are required. --Relata refero (disp.) 11:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His response to the review is here. Leithp 21:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I don't care if my ban is continued or lifted as I don't see myself editing articles on wikipedia except for correcting grammatical errors. I take "facts" expressed here with a pinch of salt and usually double check them in another resource now. The views expressed here are more subjective than objective and I think that is a humongous shame. To elaborate further on what I said to Leithp - I personally think that this board is a sham - despite there not being a consensus last time, the ban was upheld on basis of comments by POV pushers. And I think Leithp was the plaintiff, judge and jury last time around - he will be one this time too. The ingrained racism masquerading as political correctness is painfully obvious to me and I am not going to bother civilizing him or his cronies. Honestly, they are not worth my time and effort. DemolitionMan (talk) 04:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, leaving my "ingrained racism" to the side for the moment, DemolitionMan hasn't expressed any indication that he realises why his editing was/is problematic. I'm unsure whether we should continue with the topic ban, and review future contribitions of DemolitionMan closely, or keep it, since he apparently has expressed no desire to change his style of editing. Would someone else care to close this out? Leithp 06:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

HAHAHA - There was no consensus last time to uphold a ban, but I was banned - this time time there was no consensus to withdraw the ban - so I remain banned. Thanks for proving my point. DemolitionMan (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – page up to date, user has been approved --Rodhullandemu 23:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just added my name to the applicants' list there. I also noticed that User:Guerilla In Tha Mist did too more than a week ago, but no decision in either way has been yet made for him, while another user has already been approved. Since the page says If the list contains entries that are over 48 hours old, please mention this (nicely) at WP:AN, I thought I'd do so. Just wanted to let you know. --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! _{Sarcasm is beauty} 02:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A reply from someone really wouldn't hurt... --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! _{Sarcasm is beauty} 03:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm baffled by this, where User:Hiding has apparently named User:Kim Bruning as his voice in policy discussion, and claims Kim now counts twice (???). Is this even remotely allowed? So if 100 editors name me their proxy I can roll into an RFA or AFD and wield supreme power? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PRX would appear to have been rejected, so no they shouldn't be doing it. DuncanHill (talk) 15:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this comment was intended to be taken seriously, so don't panic. — CharlotteWebb 15:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just because Hiding says it, doesn't make it so. I doubt anyone trying to judge consensus on anything will take this into account, so it's meaningless, and therefor harmless. --barneca (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Barneca is speaking for me as well, so his comment counts twice. In fact, he is also speaking for my 100 abusive sockpuppets, so his comment has the power of 102. Since his strength is as the strength of ten because his heart is pure, that makes his total score 1020. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an intriguing situation indeed. I'm going to have to think very carefully before I respond. --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You think you have to think carefully before responding? You're only thinking for two; I'm evidently thinking for 1020 1021. The pressure, oh the pressure... Not that it isn't what I've always secretly wanted. --barneca (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Odd situation, yes, but it appears PRX and this idea have no popular support... Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Doh. Does that mean that I'll now have to look up every page where e.g. User:Walton One commented and throw in a per Walton, only to have people tell me it's not a vote? Lame... Dorftrottel (ask) 16:14, May 7, 2008

• Seems silly to say, but Barneca has captured my thoughts perfectly on this so. . .(no need for me to repeat). This strikes me as kind of funny, am I allowed to have an "anti"-proxi? That is, suppose there's an editor with whom I usually disagree. . . everytime they comment somewhere, the "consensus talliers" could add in my minus 1 !vote. But then we might need some kind of board to keep track of all the proxies and anti-proxies. . .seems complicated. Well anyway, agree with Barneca. Bemusedly, R. Baley (talk) 16:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. What would happen if you delegated proxy to me, and I delegated my proxy to you?
2. More interestingly, what would happen if you delegated proxy to me, and I chose to have an ANTI-proxy to you? --barneca (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure it's all amusing. First of all, the proposal involved is "delegable proxy," though, in fact, because no special meaning was assigned to proxies by WP:PRX, which was just about how one would technically name a proxy, not about what would be done with the information, the proposer understood that, later, proxies might be considered delegable, because that creates certain very interesting possibilities; among them would be the "election" of a standing assembly or committee with purely voluntary representation, revocable at any time, and without any necessity for formal election process. But that was all deferred. The question in front of us with WP:PRX was *if* proxies are to be named, set aside what they *mean*, how would we do it? And because there was some level of consensus on *how*, WP:PRX was reasonably done. Those "rejecting" WP:PRX generally gave the reason for rejection as "we don't vote," but the proposal did not propose voting, unless naming a proxy is voting (it's unanimous voting, by definition, so it isn't what we normally think of as voting.) I think the fact that proxies *are* used for voting, such as in corporate environments, confused a lot of people, and no matter how many times it was said that WP:PRX wasn't about voting, the comments that it was rejected because we don't vote continued to this day, as we have seen. Hiding *did* make that claim. But so what? It doesn't matter at all if nobody pays attention to it. If a closing admin thinks it means something, then it means something. To him or her. And if not, not. WP:PRX made no changes at all to policy or procedure, it merely suggested a new procedure for experimental use that did not bind or prejudice anyone or any process.

Indeed, a more cogent object found recently has been that it wouldn't do anything at all. And that's correct, if nobody uses it. And the labor of naming a proxy is trivial, so ... what, exactly, is the problem?

Now, some specific questions were asked. What if A names B and B names A. We have a proxy loop. It means that, if we *were* counting proxies for voting, as an example, if either one of them participates in a discussion or decision, the comment or vote of either one stands for both, unless the other also votes, in which case they each stand only for themselves. Generally, proxies only represent in the absence of the one represented. So proxy "votes" are not a fixed quality settled on the proxy, so that Bruning would automatically have two "votes" in any situation. I won't describe how to do proxy expansions. Why bother when few are naming proxies? But it can be easily done.

There are a number of groups around the world working on web sites with automated delegable proxy, and many have thought that "proxy loops" were a problem, because if neither A nor B participate, they are both not represented, so these systems have sometimes tried to prohibit such loops. But it's shallow thinking, actually. If everyone names a proxy, there *must* be loops, and the only question is how large the loops are. My own conclusion, after working on this idea for about thirty years, has been that the matter should simply be left to the individuals involved. At most some systems might notify consenting members when they aren't represented in a debate or decision.

Nobody ever brought up the idea of an anti-proxy before. It's an oxymoron, actually. A proxy is a person, an intelligent actor, not a remote voter, not a rubber stamp. An anti-proxy is a kind of rubber stamp, an automated vote, and a thoroughly offensive one. I'd say that anyone can name such a proxy, but who is going to pay attention to it? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and automatically voting the opposite of someone else could be pretty foolish. So if someone tries to be foolish, we will politely ignore it, I'd say. Instead of naming an anti-proxy, just name a sensible user who would, when this really bad editor votes, counter it based on an intelligent decision, not an automatic rejection.

Delegable proxy, if enough editors use it and enough of the proxies named are active, would allow far more efficient participation in, say, AfDs. Entirely aside from any consideration of voting. And how that would happen ... hey, how much of Wikipedia could all of you have anticipated, sitting and thinking about it theoretically. Wiki theory and practice didn't develop until there were wikis, and only a few were able to anticipate how it would all work out in actuality. That's why I say, "Just do it!" If it doesn't work, no harm is done, except for the wikifuss created by people who try to crush harmless things when they don't understand them.

I.e., just do two things: first, start an assembly. But also do it in a way that, as it grows, it can manage the traffic and follow true deliberative process, where ideas are broken down and considered in detail before being rejected in toto, or blindly accepted. This has been done countless times, it is how real democracies work, it is known how to do it. And, no, you don't just call a meeting and everyone shows up and starts talking. A few people set up procedure that then allows larger numbers to participate without it becoming a mob scene. And, with delegable proxy and committee systems, (we call committees "pages") it becomes possible to have direct democracy *and* representative democracy at the same time. And every time I try to explain this, the words multiply. Just understand that I see a *lot* more than I can say. --Abd (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I would then file an RFAR against myself (then again, I did AFD an article I wrote once, giving myself a notification via Twinkle, and I MFD'd an AFD another time, so stranger things have happened...) Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• <coughs>Kim is male. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 18:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then neither one of us would have to comment . . .no wait, that's not right. I know, we can make this all go away if one of us designates Kim as our anti-proxy, thus bringing her non-vote back to one -as if none of this had ever happened. :-) R. Baley (talk) 16:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest for others to be very careful as well. Hiding has put us all in a bit of an interesting situation with this declaration. If you just respond without thinking, you might find yourself shooting yourself in the foot. I'm not going to say more now, I'm really going to think about this for at least 24 hours. --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you seriously considering this viable, that your voice now carries Hiding's authority as well in discussions? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to just comment for Lawrence not to take this seriously as no admin or editor will in any discussion needing consensus. However, I'm confused as to what Kim Bruning wants us to be careful about. I am not in an "interesting situation" from Hidings actions, I don't know who else here is. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 16:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, that's your choice. :-) I'd like to point out that this comment was made (by someone ~in support of the consensus model) in a discussion on the topic of terminating the consensus model, which was originally started by 2 arbcom members. So things are a little twisted, and I'm going to keep thinking. --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean Hiding is still thinking about it, thus negating his outright acceptance of it? Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 16:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, please don't hurt my brain further than it is already hurting. ^^;; The simple diff is torn out of a very very twisty context. Hiding could actually be saying the opposite of what they're saying... or something. Argh... <goes to get paracetamol > --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC) things get twisted when people start to invoke the system they are attempting to overthrow ;-P OR I'm reading too much into it, and it's really just very simple. But... ok, I'm really going off to just think about this now and come up with a properly sane comment. Have a nice day! [reply]

Hiding can call leader till his... well, let's just say I agree with Barneca. Although I'm wondering if I gave an ANTI-proxy to Kim, would it cancel out Hiding's proxy? Screw it, WP:TINP. --Kbdank71 16:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could do that, but you would likely end up rejecting consensus. The discussion where this occurred is long and twisty. :-P --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, so (theoretically), If I named Hiding as my proxy (which leads back to Kim), but also named Kbdank71 as my proxy, would I end time as we know it? : ) - jc37 21:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reading this discussion is making my head hurt. Who's my proxy for that? UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 17:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry. Kim B already took a dose of paracetamol for you...Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 17:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's why each of them still has half a headache. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good editors count for an infinite amount of people when they are correct. Bad editors are worthless. That is, consensus is defined by the strength of an argument, the quality, content, and context of the argument, not by the mere quantity of arguers. Only appeals to reason and evidence are sufficient for consensus. Appeals to popularity (often mistakenly referred to as "consensus"), tradition, bureaucracy, etc., are irrelevant. The fact that questions like this come up is silly. Lawrence sounds like he's accusing him of voting fraud. If Kim Bruning and Hiding are both hypothetically making the same bad argument, it doesn't really matter that they're both making that argument. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 04:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• To answer Lawrence's question, if 100 editors name me their proxy I can roll into an RFA or AFD and wield supreme power?, I'll pose one back. What do you seriously think? However, you seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the wiki here somewhat. You are free to try it. Consensus will determine whether it's a good model to be adopted. Obviously, having commented in this discussion I revoke my granting of proxy to Kim for this debate. You see how tiresome typing things like that will become? To answer the other question posed by Lawrence, "Is this even remotely allowed?", I would point Lawrence to WP:IAR. A fundamental part of the wiki is related to that great line from the movie Grease: "The rules are, there are no rules." obviously there are rules, but we find the rules by breaking them, breaking them even before we knew we had them. It's that kind of place. It tends to work too. Yes it is remotely allowed. Whether it is followed, indulged as eccentricity or thoroughly ignored are different matters. Largely, based on this debate, I would suggest the latter two. Hiding T 09:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Since it may have become relevant, here is how proxy assignments could be handled. First, very simple: there is a proxy table somewhere. To name a proxy, you add a line to it, naming the proxy, and you sign it. Most systems being set up suggest that proxies should be accepted to be effective, so the one accepting could sign it, or alternatively, delete it. But WP:PRX did it differently. For that, a proxy file was placed by a user in their user space. The file included templates that brought in the timestamp and verified the identity, in the file, of the one who created it, and when. Then the user went to a central proxy table and added a record transcluding the individual proxy file. It wasn't difficult to use, and you could change your proxy at any time by just changing the designation in your user proxy file. That was the process, more or less as suggested by Mangojuice and implemented by Sarsaparilla, though it was still a bit buggy, due to a bug in MediaWiki. I set up a somewhat simpler system that allowed the proxy table to reside anywhere, not just in one central place. Basic idea, though, was that the user has total control over the proxy assignment at all times, because it is in the user's space. And in my form, the central table could be anywhere, and there could be more than one of them; one could make up special tables with subsets of users whose proxies are transcluded. Who would want to do this? Well, one has to understand, first, the uses. Thinking of possible uses, one could, for example, decide only to look at proxies for users who have been registered for, say, a year. Or who have more than a certain number of edits. Or who are administrators. Who would make these choices? Someone who wants to understand and estimate a consensus for the subgroup selected. This is Wikipedia. Votes do not -- or should not -- control. Rather, they advise, and it is up to the person who is going to act to consider and weigh the advice. ArbComm has been seeking advice and some have proposed an Assembly. A system PRX could generate and estimate consensus on proposals, without elections. Have I gotten anyone's attention yet? This is a proposal to *preserve* the best parts of how we do things, while becoming more efficient, i.e., requiring everyone to look at every decision (something we never did, but then we have problems which arise when those who do look have been self-selected in a problematic way) or even to vote on members of an assembly, beyond the easist kind of vote: pick the person you trust most. It doesn't have to be perfect. --Abd (talk) 15:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking about it - I've seen a few things where Ive disagreed with Kim, but he then persuaded me. I'd happily let him have my proxy VOTE (let's stop kidding ourselves, a bunch of stuff is pure and simple voting (and worse, it's voting with low turnout)). An anti-proxy vote might be handy for any prima facie anti !votes. The discussion about proxy shows how much importance some sections of WP attach to voting. Dan Beale-Cocks 13:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Admins may wish to be advised that the one Matt Barber, policy director for cultural issues of the Concerned Women for America, a Biblically principled organization, is currently fulminating in the press at sexually explicit images on Wikipedia, and his press release has turned up on the Christian Newswire as "Wikipedia Peddles Porn to Kids".

You may want to anticipate some incoming flack from this - we've had a first inquiry on the reference desk this evening. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, somebody nobody has ever heard of is attempting to use Wikipedia to generate free press for themselves then? Resolute 23:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the statement "Children will be exposed to this destructive material if you fail to protect them." sums it up pretty well. Of course, so does Raul's comment here. - auburnpilot talk 23:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

zOMG think of the children if we don't BAN THIS EVIL FILTH it's a VICTORY FOR THE TERRORISTS</sarcasm>. We survived Daniel B & his chums, I assume we'll survive this. — iridescent 23:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I personally find it odd a man is in charge of making policy for a religious woman's group. Hypocrisy much? -Jéské ^{(v^_^v E pluribus unum)} 23:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hypocrisy and religion? Those have never crossed paths before, have they? Regardless, if mommy and daddy are going to use religion as an excuse to hide natural functions of humanity from their kids, better Wikipedia teaches them than most anything a google search would turn up, imo. Resolute 23:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A women's organisation founded by Christians as part of the opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment. Quite. — iridescent 23:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not certian wikipedia articles stick to natural functions.Geni 23:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neither does google, heh. Resolute 23:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmp wikipedia.com again.Geni 23:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scary, dont these people have jobs? Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 23:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's minds of their own they lack, not jobs. DuncanHill (talk) 09:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest we prepare a statement with our site's disclaimer, a selection of family-friendly mirror sites, and some suggestions about parental control software. Durova^Charge! 23:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any open source parental control software?Geni 23:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, when even WR thinks they're a pack of crackpots, I think we're probably safe (note to the badsites police - that link is permitted as it it's directly relevant to the topic and not to ED) — iridescent 23:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that's the Foundation's job, not the community's. As for wikipedia.com..._sigh. Keegan^talk 05:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone show me where the "hundreds, if not thousands, of hardcore pornographic images and online sex videos" are available here or on Wikicommons for, ur, my research into this terrible obsenity? Seriously, haven't responses centred around WP:NOT#CENSORED been the standard response to these kind of campaigners in the past? Nick Dowling (talk) 23:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

zee only video would be Image:Blonde_stag_film.ogg. Only hardcore photos (we have a lot of softcore tends to pick a lot of copyvios mind) would be commons:Category:Pornographic film.Geni 00:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are some fairly dubious photos here - anyone want to explain exactly how NudeSamStripper.jpg, Model in bondage.jpg or my all-time favourite ridiculous image (and Jimbo lookalike) Suspension-bb-lorelei-9016-jonwoods.jpg are encyclopaedic? (Warning; all three are NSFW!) — iridescent 00:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No idea about the first image, but the second & third are used to illustrate the article Hogtie bondage as any fule kno. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commons isn't concerned with 'encyclopaedic value', it is a repository of free media. -- Naerii 04:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not specifically "encyclopedic value", per se, but images on Commons do have to be potentially useful to current or future Wikimedia projects. Powers ^T 13:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes!!, i mean , its all in artistic taste obviously. --Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 00:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I was really conservative. Not that much, apparently. I don't think this will turn out to be anything big. I still think, however, that a parental control option would be good. bibliomaniac15 Do I have your trust? 23:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, i think it falls under the usual CENSORED argument, ive fallen victim to that thing a number of times, yet i respect it. Wikipedia is not censored, we shouldnt give in to the political/religious ideology of ANY group. It will be bad for the community, a lot of people are already tired of this sort of pushing.Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 00:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But not one wikipedia will support. Of course if some third party were to develop one we could hardly object.Geni 00:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They also say "With great power comes great responsibility." Good thing to keep in mind in case you get bitten by a radioactive spider. *Dan T.* (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think a boilerplate message as outlined by Durova would be quite handy, both in this instance, and in the future, and to me personally. I know I, for one, would be interested in the location of family-friendly mirrors (if any exist) that I could feel comfortable sending my kids to. I seem to recall hearing about a CD version for school, I wonder if there's also an online version. No need to make fun of people who want to take advantage of the best online encyclopedia in the world, but don't want to expose themselves, or their kids, to images or subject matter they find objectionable. Delicately pointing out that they are responsible for what their kids see on line, not us, but giving them other options would be quite magnanimous of us, I think. --barneca (talk) 00:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Online version of the Wikipedia for Schools CD at [2]]. DuncanHill (talk) 09:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Barneca, I think you have a valid question - but I wonder why parental controls for pages aren't being used? After all, most of our images that are objectionable are on the body part and pornography articles. Setting parental controls to filter for certain key words would take care of many of these articles. --David Shankbone 00:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So a teenage boy couldn't read about testicles, but could read about testicular cancer? A teenage girl couldn't read about breasts, but would be able to read about breast cancer? Dan Beale-Cocks 09:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could we also have something for article that link to hate sites aswell then? There are a number of articles that provide URL's to some very hateful places. Do we need something for that aswell? I find thinks like that more worrying than a few naked bodies. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 00:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

& if no family-friendly mirror sites exist, we should certainly encourage CWA or anyone else interested to create one. If someone wanted to create a 99% mirror that specifically left out the 1% or so sexual content, they could presumably filterg mainly on the basis of removing all articles that are in certain categories, then do some blacklisting and whitelisting to deal with the outliers. I think that would be a great project. I'm actually surprised that no large city school system (for example) has done this. Of course, knowing CWA, they have a lot of other objections Wikipedia & are just using this as a convenient stick to beat us with. But objecting to us containing reasonably neutral articles on socialism and the like wouldn't make as big a splash in the press. - Jmabel | Talk 00:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• In case no one's linked to this here yet: Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Porn for prudes. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• *Ahem* *Cough* seicer | talk | contribs 01:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • Following up on the above, I'm planning a blog post about family-friendly options. Some outreach and communication could help here. Really, a lot of the public doesn't fully understand how wikis operate and North American social conservatives are accustomed to asking for child-appropriate content at the provider level on a local or regional basis. We can't fulfill this type of request in the way they expect. Any unprotected page could get vandalized at any time, so it's possible that someone's eight-year-old could download an article about a Disney movie two seconds after someone replaced the content with obscenities. If we tried to prevent that from ever happening we'd stop being a wiki. What we can do is educate them about their other options. I welcome input from other Wikipedians about preparing this post and making it useful. Durova^Charge! 07:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • • After communication with Bastique, I have a list of images that one of the emails to OTRS has got. I, along with him and others, are going to sort thru the images and see what should stay and what should go. As for their location, many of the ones pointed out to OTRS exist on the Commons. Plus, porn to them is probably a lot broader definition than what we think. I found many pieces of historical art in the list of images to look at. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • You're aware that I'm an admin on Commons? Durova^Charge! 07:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, but I do now. I am also a Commons admin, so I can help you. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 08:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Won't fly to well. We need something like a firefox plugin that can blacklist certian pages. I'm sure there would be wikipedians who would help in provideing blacklists.Geni 16:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As an interesting aside, I'd like to point out that when I checked earlier today, we were getting anywhere between 1 and 5 emails per hour to OTRS about this. That's a significant amount (though not nearly what the height of the muhammad controversies were). ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 07:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually in favor of such a campaign. I find it disgusting that there are Wikipedia users who will do things like crap on plates and then insist such images be used in articles. We don't need explicit stuff when a scholarly diagram or something similar can do the job just as well. Jtrainor (talk) 08:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, not all images in such articles can be done up in such a manner without confusing the picture. Any diagram of smegma, for example, is going to end up looking "moldy" and thus be confusing. And, indeed, there's been some concern about the image on the page currently (as well as some glacier-mo edit-warring over it), but unless we have a useful diagram (read: one that doesn't make the subject look like mildew, cum (pardons), or bread mold) then we can't remove the picture quite yet. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v E pluribus unum)} 08:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While I do not see how poop on a plate would be worthwhile (I do not see any value in the stripper picture linked to above, either), I think that images that some people find objectionable have a place on Wikipedia. Most of the potentially objectionable images I have seen relate to medical topics, and you find graphic images all of the time in certain high-quality medical publications. Dermatology books and journals have some particularly delightful ones. ;-) In regards to diagrams/drawings, unfortunately, it can be hard to find one that can be used on Wikipedia legally. Also, as Jéské Couriano mentioned, it can be difficult for Wikipedians to create their own.

It's not poop on a plate, it's in a toilet, for pete's sake. Powers ^T 13:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should have a drawing request page for articles for which a photo or drawing cannot be found. We already have photo requests, and this would allow those with the skill to create drawings know what topics need them. -- Kjkolb (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• If anyone complains just redirect their user page to Category:Bad images Jackaranga (talk) 12:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• The way to deal with issues like this is to make absolutely sure that when we include content that is of an explicit nature, it is clearly evident to the impartial observer that it has self-evident merit in illustrating the subject. The image at fluffer seems to me to fail that, as do many other images originating in the world of "teh pr0n". We should aspire to a quality of image that would not be out of place in an anatomical textbook. Such images tend not to be particularly titillating. Guy (Help!) 07:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Allegations of Kiddie Porn?

At least one of the OTRS messages concerns children in pornographic images (full frontal, prepubescent, sexually provocative)which are posted here. Maybe we should reconsider our demand that anything goes. After all, if a child posts personal information on his talk page we delete and oversight it - but if they are nude it's acceptable? Doesn't make sense. -JodyB _talk 11:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Kiddie Porn" images is a favourite meme of pro-censorship interests. Are the pictures intended as sexually provocative? If a picture of a naked child in a "natural pose" excites sexual desire in someone then it is the problem of that viewer, not the host of the picture, and the potential of the reaction of a small minority should not disallow the use of an image in an appropriate context. So, are examples of images of naked children acceptable? Within context, yes, as this is an encyclopedia that uses various media to illustrate subjects. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can only think of two images of naked children - one is a child (and her father) in the naked bike ride article and the other is an album cover. Neither is porn. Viridae^Talk 12:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Sexually provocative" is the key word (well, words). If we have any sexually provocative photos of nude children, that's undoubtedly against our policies and they should be deleted, rather than defended with the usual "no censorship here" rhetoric. But I doubt such images actually exist here currently -- people tend to just see nudity and recoil in terror. I know beans and all, but specific links to the photos people consider to be "sexually provocative" are in order in this case, if we are to discuss this productively. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect it refers to the Scorpion's album cover, which the "World Net Daily" (whatever that is) is currently trying to publicise as much as it possibly can, see [3] DuncanHill (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Virgin Killer - That's an interesting problem. It's provocative, but at the same time it's not merely a photo taken for that purpose, but a historical (artistic?) album cover from the '70s. This could really go either way. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its also not the only one. Srsly, and I speak this as a born-again Christian myself, these people are only out for self-aggrandizement and aren't really making these statements to "make the world better". --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's also the famous re-imagining of Dejeuner sur l'herbe in the Bow wow wow article. --Relata refero (disp.) 14:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes, those news sources have questionable intentions, but that doesn't mean we can't re-examine the issue for our own purposes. That first article does feature a provocative photo of a naked 10 year-old, whether or not some tabloid-esque news magazine is who's responsible for informing us of it. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have to use the girl Virgin Killer picture? Since there is an alternate and the girl album cover is not the subject of the article or of any critical analysis...I'll be bold. Seraphim♥Whipp 13:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, when I said critical analysis, I meant that what was there already wasn't really enough to make a strong argument to keep the image. Seraphim♥Whipp 13:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why give in to a few hate-mongers on a fringe website? DuncanHill (talk) 13:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would have done it anyway if I had known before. It was brought to my attention from this discussion. Seraphim♥Whipp 13:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose what you did. The album cover was controversial and having it in the article does help greatly with illustrating the controversy.-Wafulz (talk) 13:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a wiki. Feel free to revert. Seraphim♥Whipp 13:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with Wafulz that the image does help the article. The only thing I'm not sure about is if the image is in line with our policies -- but if it is, then it should probably stay, as the replacement image isn't just as good. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OMG CHILD PORN. WND is horribly sensationalist and they’ll put a spin on anything to rid the world of "liberal" values. I suggest we carry on with business as usual.-Wafulz (talk) 13:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An earlier removal of the image was reverted as vandalism, I think content issues such as this should be discussed on the article talk-page. DuncanHill (talk) 13:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have already left a message on the talk page. Seraphim♥Whipp 13:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Yes, that is the image I was referring to. It was simply a gratuitous image that was even dropped by the record company. I appreciate Seraphim's boldness. As one who has professionally with victims of child pornography I will not give space to those who seek to excuse it. As a parent of three young boys the image was horribly offensive. This is not merely a naked picture, but a deliberately provocative pic of a child. We should at least have some small standard of decency here. -JodyB _talk 14:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's... a mass-market heavy metal album cover, of which no doubt tens of thousands (if not more) were produced. Everyone who owns this Scorpions album is a child pornographer now? Come on. World Net Daily is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist "news" (used very loosely) outlet pushing an extremist, anti-American censorship agenda. We should not be gratuitously publishing porn, because we're an encyclopedia, not a porn shop. But if the worst that WND can throw at us is "omg noes an ALBUM COVER," I'd say there's really not much to be concerned about. FCYTravis (talk) 17:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This might be the appropriate point to mention that Balance was one of the biggest selling albums of the 1990s - is every record store on the planet distributing kiddy porn, too? — iridescent 17:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed these emails are fun to deal with. But we are not censored, and in this case in particular the image does help the article (IMO; note, it's been removed). The album isn't porn, and I'd be more worried about people who think it is than the image itself. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 15:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

perhaps the positions should be reversed, and the revised cover put at the top, changing the labels appropriately. DGG (talk) 15:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with both Mike.lifeguard and DGG on this. DuncanHill (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As was suggested, this is being discussed at the article's talk page. Come take part in the discussion there :). Seraphim♥Whipp 15:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do recall a situation a couple of months ago where a minor was taking photos of his bits and uploading them here to articles such as "Puberty" and "Penis", and we dealt with it by speedying the photos and warning him. I'm not sure what came of it, but it seemed a thoroughly sensible approach. Orderinchaos 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's a pretty obvious "delete, no questions asked" issue. FCYTravis (talk) 17:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, World Net Daily is certainly right-wing, but it's not particularly Christian, unless "Christian" is just taken as code for "Moslems not welcome." This bit of moral panic is sheer opportunism. - Jmabel | Talk 19:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. It's interesting that they hired Matt Sanchez, former gay porn star as one of their correspondents, isn't it? --David Shankbone 20:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The image is up for ifd in today's log anyway. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That IfD should be closed extremely quickly as it starting to garner unwanted attention. Rgoodermote  18:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On a related topic...

Might I point some admins besides me to Talk:Smegma? I've practically been the only one to rebut the calls of IPs for censorship on that page, and other IPs are being emboldened by this and deliberately removing or redlinking the image on the article, seeing it as consensus. I need to walk away from it at this point; if I continue there I might blow a gasket. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v E pluribus unum)} 08:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fully protected for 1 week. Rudget (Help?) 11:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article, yes, but not the talk page, which is where I'm asking for assistance. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v E pluribus unum)} 18:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I received an email from Voped.com today, requesting an opinion on a draft of a Wikipedia article they wrote themselves. I responded explaining COI and so forth. I also did a little searching and found this and this. Strangely this person says user:Jéské Couriano referred him to me, as a "dependable administrator". I have absolutely no experience with Jeske and I'm not an administrator. In case anyone wants to read it, I've included the email here via {{hidden}}. I'm reporting this here because frankly it's weird and interesting, and also because the website in question apparently just went live a week ago, so heads-up regarding promo material.

Equazcion •✗/C • 23:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, Equazcion, I thought you were an admin. Sorry. Yes, I did refer him to you as your name is one I commonly see; I was the one who originally deleted the article in userspace and blocked the Voped account. I have been in contact with him via email ever since, and have pointed him out to Wikipedia policies. If I erred in asking him to send the article to you in order to vet it, my apologies. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v E pluribus unum)} 08:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all, no harm done. It just confused me a little. I've been directing this person to our policies as well. From my last communication with him, he didn't seem to be "getting it", and seems hell-bent on posting an article on his company. Guess we'll see. Thanks for the response. Equazcion •✗/C • 08:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:IPEXEMPT and bug fixed. NonvocalScream (talk) 23:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that details of how it should be granted, and what process is best, are still being finalized. There may be some changes during the first week. Please grant very cautiously and to a limited extent only for the first week, or until the policy beds in. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 00:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked at the user rights management and saw another thing, what is accountcreator for? -MBK₀₀₄ 00:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The accountcreator permission allows for user accounts to bypass the arbitrary account creation limit designed to prevent mass account creations. Nakon 00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a throttle put on non admins accounts to stop them making more than 6 new accounts a day, but this has been stopping users who help create accounts for new users. This removes that throttle. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, now I know. That's an area I've been far away from. -MBK₀₀₄ 00:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How do we approve users for either of those new rights? Tiptoety ^talk 00:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IP block exempt goes through the unblock mailing list. I'm guess ACC can just go on any admins talk page. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now all we need is some way to restrict accounts from preforming a certain number of page moves a day. Tiptoety ^talk 00:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I need it now, but I'm thinking about doing some ACC work in the future...could a friendly passing admin give me accountcreator please? :) Thanks, dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 00:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Tiptoety ^talk 00:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wait..it looks like me and Ryan edit conflicted on it, he is actually the one that gave it to you. :D Tiptoety ^talk 00:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to Ryan (and Tip for trying!). dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 02:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The addition of the ipblock-exempt user group also means that anonymizing proxies should be exclusively hard blocked now (which is more or less already currently done), as all constructive uses of such proxies should be channeled into IP block exemption. Gracenotes^T § 01:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the idea behind this to allow trusted non-admin users to edit from otherwise blocked IPs, such as Tor? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 01:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Tiptoety ^talk 01:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ideally, though, we should strongly discourage ipb-exempt users from using Tor specifically - its widely distributed nature has the disadvantage of making disproving checkuser investigations less easy, as well as making it possible for a rogue node op (of which there are plenty) to hijack your account if you don't go through the HTTPS gateway. Better to go through one of the many more reputable HTTP-based proxies if at all possible. krimpet✽ 01:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of official statement from ArbCom on TOR and GWA, just so we know exactly where we stand - Alison ^❤ 01:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is excellent news for checkusers, too. Note that ArbCom have already granted the first two exemptions to User:Exxolon (the first ever) and User:Deltasquared. This option really makes my day!! - Alison ^❤ 01:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, thats kind of cool. How does this benefit Checkusers, Alison? Also, we should put up a list of "recommended" proxies for these users, as well as some kind of something (WP: page) explaining "why" this is good for everyone/checkusers and what purpose it serves. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 01:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because when applying hard rangeblocks, there's nothing more annoying than knowing that one or two editors will be caught as "collateral damage". Admins are normally blind to that, but range checking on checkuser shows it up. The two examples above are as a result of the "thousands of socks" vandal and were caught in the hardblock - Alison ^❤ 01:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment for now.

IPEXEMPT means a user can bypass any IP block at all - only a block specifically on their username will affect them. There are two main situations it'll be most useful - constructive users who edit via a vandalism range or shared IP we would like to hard-block, and users who would like to edit anonymously via Tor or another hard-blocked open proxy.

The main risk area with IPEXEMPT is it is wiki pixie dust to avoid checkuser. So it's likely to be a highly desired flag by wiki-abusers for its WP:GHBH and WP:SOCK deniability potential. Fortunately most uses will not be for anonymous access, but for hard IP block bypassing.

Users who want IPEXEMPT to bypass a hard IP block on their usual IP, aren't a problem. They don't especially want to edit via proxies, it just happens IPEXEMPT would let them if they did. To keep it simple, the suggested policy is that a user in this position who just wants to use their normal connection but there's an IP block on it (schoolblock, vandalism, etc), can be given IPEXEMPT by any admin, but there's a condition they may not use it to edit via blocked proxies, or else it'll be removed. Logging may be needed to track when the right should be removed (ie, block ends), perhaps. Nothing much more. Making non-proxied use a condition means minimal scrutiny is needed and avoids loads of needless inquiry and such. It also means most requests don't need anything more than a quick check it's justified (ie, due to an IP block on their native IP), since the right will be removed if used to edit via a proxy. Easy.

Users who want IPEXEMPT to edit anonymously need more scrutiny. That's still being discussed. Main risk - Admins might quietly give the right to socks or friends on a pretext (send self email). We've had a few sock-admins and some abuse proxy access and unblock methods. This should be a rare request, and it requires a high level of trust of the user, and certainty of uninvolved admin scrutiny (IPEXEMPT is effectively an admin level tool). But yes -- if there is a bona fide need for anon proxy access by a non-admin, and sufficient trust, then to answer Lawrence Cohen's question, we now would have a way to let them do so.

Thats the quick comment version, anyway.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 02:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. We definitely need to create a page listing recommended "good" anon proxies for people to use, then. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 02:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, FT2. This is excellent - Alison ^❤ 04:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

....So, the only really trustworthy admins will be the ones who don't request it? ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ipexempt comes with the bit already ;) Trustworthy admins are those who don't ask it for their sockpuppets :P -- lucasbfr ^talk 09:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article Nicolaus Copernicus has a long-standing problem with endless socks of User:Serafin. Usually, they are easy enough to spot. However, there's been an edit today that could be him, but might not. User:Shpakovich, who started editing in January, made a "Copernius is Polish"-type edit earlier today. While this editor differs from the ususal pattern in that the account has other edits, some aspects of it seem suspicious - specifically:

• The edit comment "Ok nationality i wont enter, but his Polish ethnicity should be mentioned", which reads as a continuation of the two socks that tried to make changes earlier. (Shpakovich has also never edited the article before.)
• The comment on User talk:Shpakovich from early April, where the editor admitted to having been blocked and also to having socks that were blocked without stating outright who he/she was.)

Does this warrant a checkuser? --Ckatz^chat_spy 01:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see requests for checkuser. If you are not certain about that, you could go to suspected sockpuppets instead. Carcharoth (talk) 02:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks... I was actually hoping, though, to see if any other admins who have had more extensive dealings with either Serafin or Shpakovich in the past see a parallel here. (I don't want to block Shpakovich, or even suggest a link to Serafin, if someone who knows them better feels there's no connection.) --Ckatz^chat_spy 05:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have had a lot of dealings with Serafin. In my opinion its is unlikely that User:Shpakovich is Serafin - this just isn't his/her editing pattern. Serafin is much more single-minded and uses highly-recognizable edit summaries and rarely strays beyond three core articles Copernicus, Recovered Territories and Bureaucracy. Serafin, by the way, edits from IPs associated with the University of Guelph, usually Johnston Hall, so if you do request a checkuser, you might ask the CU to see if any of the user's IPs resolve to there. Gwernol 12:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any reason why any of us administrators would need to have our accounts added to usergroups that gives us redundant permissions? (e.g. +sysop and (+ACC/RBK/IPBE)? — xaosflux ^Talk 04:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. MBisanz ^talk 04:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My feeling is no as well, unless it's right before you give up your +sysop under non controversial circumstances, but wanted to get a wider view among others here before doing any cleanups. — xaosflux ^Talk 04:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or it's just toying with the permissions in a way that won't effect an any other account. UserRights management is a new thing for admins, and two more permissions in a day seems like a county fair. Keegan^talk 05:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is the other issue, messing with user-rights to test things creates ugly, hard to monitor logs. MBisanz ^talk 05:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note:I'm playing devil's advocate. I haven't messed with my own rights. Well, how am I supposed to practice an learn how to use the function in a safe and secure manner unless it's on an account I own? I'm not going to download MediaWiki and try to figure out how to install it because I know nothing about computers. I can sympathize with the mushy logs, but as I said it is new and I don't anticipate this lasting forever. Even practicing with test WP:NAS accounts will cause log entries. I'm just going to put down a "Wet Floor!" sign. Keegan^talk 05:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well I dont mind Rollbackery nonsense or even Account Creation, but IP block exempt is a powerful tool and tracking log entry adds and removals is tedious. MBisanz ^talk 06:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wots IPBE? With regards to rollback, I prefer having that installed, so that should I ever temp desysop I have that straight away without the fuss of requesting it. That was used when I last went on a short no-tool break. Viridae^Talk 06:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IP block exempt, a tag long ago written by Werdna IIRC and is part of the admin package, is now available to be doled out by admins to unflagged editors with UserRights managment. Check your new shiny Special:UserRights options. Keegan^talk 06:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While I know first had the struggles of all these new userrights management options and can understand one or two test, like MBisanz it screws up the logs and confuses users. I say that admins should not add themselves to "rollback" or "accountcreator" as there is really no need. I am all for going through and clearly out the large amount of new admins that still have "rollback". Tiptoety ^talk 18:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If clogged logs are really an issue, going back and removing rollback from admin accounts will clog them even more. --barneca (talk) (see note @ top of my talk if I don't reply) 11:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I went ahead (with the help of giggy and SQL) created Wikipedia:New admin school/Accountcreator granting and revoking just in case anyone was curious. Cheers, Tiptoety ^talk 18:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, all of the Mediawiki:Grouppage-* links have been filled in, so Special:ListGroupRights and any related links at least fill in properly now :-P ^demon^{[omg plz]} 19:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Out of interest, could an admin upload a screenshot of the Special:UserRights panel? Thanks. —TreasuryTag—t—c 13:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go; that's what it looks like to an admin, it's more interesting for a 'crat and even more functional for a steward. --ais523 15:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that; of course, we don't have local Stewards, do we? —TreasuryTag—t—c 15:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to propose a research experiment that may help better Wikipedia.

Hypothesis: Anonymous editing leads to less responsible editing, more edit warring, worse encyclopedia.

Practical considerations: Naturally, changing the requirement that prohibits editors from hiding behind a user name is such a large change that it will not happen.

How about asking people to do so, instead, so it is purely voluntary?

Research design: I propose to edit by my real name and will verify it with a trusted person, such as an Administrator who edits by their real name. Then I will ask up to 50 new editors if they wish to participate. After 30 days (can be extended), I will look at the behavior of these editors versus up to 50 randomly selected new editors and see if disclosure of real names promotes better writing compared to the other group.

Opinions? Are you opposed to this research or will you allow it to start? JerryVanF (talk) 06:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just thought of how some cynics might think. So we'll use a random number chart to select the users whom we will ask to participate. The details are not yet important. The first step is to get opinions about this research project. JerryVanF (talk) 06:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a structural "issue" with your proposal: there are 2 variables. The first is use of a "real" name. The second is the message from you asking them to participate in a study and to use their real name. To make this a randomized controlled trial, you'd have to be able to assign editors to the "anon" and "realname" groups. Self-selection, which is what would happen here, is a powerful contaminant.

You could create a cohort study, wherein you ask the next X hundred editors if they are editing with a false or a real name, then aggregate their activities into "anon" and "realname" groups for purposes of analysis. This would still be subject to self-selection, but then at least you're asking both groups the same question. It wouldn't really answer the question you're trying to ask, but it'd be interesting, anyway. Antelan^talk 06:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your reply. I was afraid the first reply would be "shut up Jerry".

Self selection is a factor. However, it may be a practical first step. I think it is too big a change if the research project shows better editing with real names so that effective Jan. 1, 20--, all editors must edit this way. A more practical change would be that Wikipedia encourages people to edit by their real names and this would be based on our study. If the new policy is voluntary then it's ok that we allow people to choose real names or not when then start participation.

The trouble with asking if people are editing with real names is that few usernames even sound like real names so I would think that <1% of editors do that. JerryVanF (talk) 06:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my name is my name, for what it's worth, and that's an interesting idea for a sociological experiment. From my practical experience, I've found that continuous edit warring usually comes from registered accounts and the fact that registering an account hides IPs, thus anonymizing the edit warring with sock puppets. IPs usually just prove that Friends of gays should not edit Wikipedia. So I think that your hypothesis would prove what we all have observed to be social practice. Is it practical? Give it a try. Keegan^talk 07:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Using your real name online is rarely safe, and it is officially advised against by at least the British government. Why would you encourage people to perform dangerous activities when government (expert?!) advice is to the contrary? —TreasuryTag—t—c 07:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is not encouragement, but asking for willing participation.

Now, to get philosophical, Wikipedia was started to flesh out articles for Nupedia, whose articles were authored with real names. From what I understand (I wasn't there), Wikipedia started out with everyone knowing everyone's name, an signing with initials. Now as the project grew in size, membership, and web ranking, obviously anonymity became important and still is. Off wiki harrassment is a very real thing.

The point of the GFDL and free distribution is the selflessness of authorship- some are proud to put their name on the work and then release it, others do it under a pseudonym. It's not an exercise in vanity, but an exercise in awareness of freedom from intellectual property.

I think that however one chooses to participate online in a community of such internet standing should be fully aware of the consequences of either anonymizing or openness. Such a study could be greatly interesting in that regard. Keegan^talk 07:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this on WP:AN? MickMacNee (talk) 11:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC). And the proposed 'experiment' is clearly set up to prove a point. The Kansas schoolboard would be so proud. MickMacNee (talk) 11:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have done some number crunching already. Over half of unregistered edits are useful, that's why the wiki tends towards order over time. --Kim Bruning (talk) 12:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC) There's this company this one economist(?) ran (he down-shifted from his previous job to an office confectionery delivery company ;-) ), where he relied on the observation that ~80-90% of his customers were honest. I'm sure the story is on wikipedia somewhere in an article. Now where was that again?[reply]

You probably mean Paul Feldman. GlobeGores (talk page | user page) 18:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC) [reply]

HYPOTHESIS: Editors who tend to edit responsibly would be more willing to disclose their real name than editors who do not. How does this proposed experiment distinguish between this hypothesis and your original hypothesis? I don't believe it does, which means you can't distinguishe between cause and effect. Andrew Jameson (talk) 15:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC) (not my real name, BTW)[reply]

Nice idea, but selection bias would be too big a problem. Andrew Jameson (if that isn't his real name), says it best: There's no way to tell if people are editing well because they're using their real name or their using their real name because they intend to edit well. --Tango (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is the possibility that a person could be using another person's name and claiming to be them while potentially ruining that person's name by making really bad edits. We have seen that on AN/I before some one (no names will be mentioned) used some one else name and blanked AN/I. I my self use my real name to edit and as so I try to make non-controversial just in case. But that is me. There is the second part here. A user could use their real name to edit but not care what others think and just make whatever edits they feel regardless of it's potential post-effects. I myself am not opposed to this. But I do see it being a little flawed. Rgoodermote  20:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're not in Kansas analogy territory anymore; more like Durham Country Council, I think. Regardless of flaws, I can't see how this project could ever generate benefits that would outweigh the harm. How do we reconcile "use your real name" with "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" and with the longstanding policy that registration is not necessary? The majority of contributors would be put off registering, I think, and we have enough issues with death threats and harassment already. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You forget lawsuits. (added) I really thought this guy was studying the difference between those who use Pseudonames and those who use their Real Names to edit. I was kind of for that. Rgoodermote  20:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

HYPOTHESIS:The research proposer wants to prove anonymous editing is bad for the 'pedia, and therefore once proven we can launch the zomg bots on them and the world will be a better place, free of lies, bullshit and deceit. I ask only for US$3m to be able to research this. MickMacNee (talk) 01:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all of your replies. (unlike MickNacNee, I will work for free) I plan to begin a very small pilot study of maybe as few as 10 users. I plan to find an administrator who could work with me as either co-author, question answerman/woman, ethics review panel, etc. Since I will ask users if they are using their real names, I will ask the same question to myself and reveal my real name. I do listen to others. One said that there should be some sort of privacy. So I will change the research design so that only a first initial or a shortened family name will be requested (for example P. Hilton or Paris Hilt instead of Paris Hilton).JerryVanF (talk) 02:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

REQUEST relating to above discussion: Is there an administrator who has a post office box and is willing to receive a letter from me. I wish to send a legal document for my study. You don't need a post office box but I would feel more comfortable not asking for your street address. You can e-mail it to me. JerryVanF (talk) 02:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You need to email the Foundation about that. Administrators are volunteers, and we have no affiliation with the legal matters of Wikipedia. The WikiMedia Foundation maintains in-house as well as outside counsel for document review. Keegan^talk 05:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a legal document pertaining to WikiMedia. I wish to send me research plan and my real name to an administrator, who will act as sort of an ethical review board. This is the best way to run a research project. If I mail it to WikiMedia, they will have no idea what is going on. There are some administrators who say who they are and whose address can be easily googled but I want them to volunteer, not for me to force a letter on them. JerryVanF (talk) 05:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In what sense is the document a "legal document", then? —TreasuryTag—t—c 13:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may just simply be an agreement. Dunno. Does it have to be an administrator? NonvocalScream (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

user:Steelbeard1 and I are having a dispute that User:Lar is attmepting to mediate at[[User:Lar#Problem editor. These are somewhat complex issues that need to be parsed one issue at a time but steelbeard1 is burying my comments under comments of his own designed to distract from my point. Can somebody please ask him t ostop and wait for Lar to read my comments. I will be happy to discuss all issues with him but Lar needs to read my imost recent responses before we continue and he is burying what Ihave said.--Dr who1975 (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rest assured, Dr who1975, that Lar is experienced enough to figure out what is conversation and what is fluff. Trust your mediator to mediate, even if the other side is perceived as disruptive. Keegan^talk 07:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ok. I guess I should have more faith.--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The disputes are about persons speculated to be running for public office or declined requests to run for public office who never become candidates for the public office in question. The consensus which developed is that sourced speculation is allowed in the body of articles, but is never allowed in candidates' lists because they were never candidates in the first place. The latest dispute involves speculation removed from candidates' lists but with most of the citations becoming dead links so they couldn't be verified before insertion in the body of articles. You can see what I mean at Talk:Louisiana's 6th congressional district special election, 2008. Dr. Who attempted to put clearly unsourced info on Ben Nevers in the body of the Louisiana's 1st congressional district special election, 2008 article which I deleted. The citation Dr. Who gave was from Nevers' official state senate web site which would never give out Nevers' congressional ambitions unless he gave it himself. Also, if you look at the User talk:Lar history page, you will see that Dr. Who had deleted then undeleted my rebuttal comments. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion is now underway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referenda#ongoing elections and prominence given to candidates. Steelbeard1 (talk) 02:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:United States Senate election in Mississippi, 2008. Dr. Who is now discriminating against me by complaining that I made a new comment concerning a merge proposal when another editor did the same thing before I did and Dr. Who did not complain about that editor. Whatever actions are taken against Dr. Who by Wikipedia higherups I'm in favor of. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was just wondering if there was a limit on the number of "pictures" an article can have, or is it free for a number of pictures to be uploaded. Buddha24 (talk) 08:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no actual limit - see Wikipedia:MOS#Images for guidance on how to use them. A good rule to go by is that there should be more text than pictures. If there are many many relevant - and free - pictures, then a gallery tends to be added to the article. Neıl ☎ 08:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than fill articles with galleries, it's generally better to add a link to the relevant Commons category. Durova^Charge! 09:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot about that. Yes, that too, providing the images are on Commons. Neıl ☎ 10:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you're using fair use (copyrighted) images, you should use as few as are needed to get the point across. (And this probably should have gone to the Help Desk, but that's ok ;-) ) Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 15:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

en:Wikipedia's fair use rules are strict enough that I doubt they would support a gallery. Durova^Charge! 16:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually many articles already have gallery's on them. Mr. Green^{Hit Me Up}Userboxes 16:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If they're galleries of fair use images, they should almost certainly be removed. J Milburn (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's also worth pointing out that, from a purely stylistic viewpoint, articles with large numbers of images (even in galleries) can look ridiculous — see Fairlop Loop for a particularly sorry example, for instance. — iridescent 21:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a user by the name of True Steppa who keeps adding something called funky house to the List of electronic music genres page. The thing has inadequate data, it's vague, and there's no mention of the subject. Also, this person keeps deleting an external link to electronic music. I am requesting this person gets blocked or prevented from editing the list of electronic music genres page. Fclass (talk) 16:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The funky house thing seems to be notable enough for inclusion, if one considers that a Google News search gets 40 current hits right now. If you feel it's not notable, then I'd suggest an AFD, as I see a speedy deletion was already declined. The constant removal/replacement is more of a content dispute than vandalism or anything else, and should really be discussed on the article talk page to try and work it out there. As for the external link, it appears to be a user-submitted collection of information set on an ad-based format - a few of the definitions were actually our articles (see Chicago house on there, for example). I don't think it's really a good external link considering that. Tony Fox (arf!) 19:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've warned both editors for 3rr; though they have both exceeded 3 reversions, I don't think a block is necessary if they are willing to discuss the matter. I do have a question, though - I see that one of the issues is over the inclusion of a link to electronicmusicstyles.com, but I'm not seeing where that site is a reliable source or a relevant external link. Am I missing something? I concur that there is some evidence to suggest that Funky house exists as a music style, so an AfD would be appropriate in that instance. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 20:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

nb. Fclass (talk · contribs) opened a block request discussion on True Steppa at WP:ANI - which I closed as forum shopping, citing this discussion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll delete the electronicmusicstyles.com link. The site is nit a very reliable source and it's mostly copied from Wikipedia. But, if True Steppa shows up again... Fclass (talk) 20:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If True Steppa shows up again, what? Threats are certainly not going to be looked at in your favor Fclass, and I can say that without even looking at the dispute. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

for some reason I was also asked to help, tho it certainly is not my field. I agree about the link, but I also noticed Fclass has been warned about just this fighting over genres repeatedly before. DGG (talk) 20:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you block an open proxy thats on the list to be checked at WP:OP, please mark it as blocked, so that those checking for proxies can see which proxies have been processed. Thanks! Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Image content guidelines for an attempt to start a guideline to consolidate and improve our guidelines on image content on Wikipedia. Please discuss at the talk page and help improve this new guideline, which was inspired by this and other recent image discussion controversies. Carcharoth (talk) 23:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

I would like to speak to an administrator via email concerning a dispute.--Urban Rose 00:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then e-mail one...? --Deskana (talk) 00:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think he'd like a volunteer. He did the same thing the other day and I got a very productive email off him, which I dealt with appropriately. Unfortunately I'm a little busy - is anyone else free to help Urban? Ryan Postlethwaite 00:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a "she" actually. Just to let you know.--Urban Rose 00:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I do appologise. I hope I didn't cause any offence. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to mail me, but can't promise I can help... — iridescent 00:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"This user is interested in beauty." is a dead giveaway, although maybe not. MickMacNee (talk) 00:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm interested in beauty, but perhaps for different reasons than Urban Rose :-) Ryan Postlethwaite 01:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've sent Iridescent an email so I'm marking this as resolved, okay?.--Urban Rose 01:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think so, it's OK. —TreasuryTag—t—c 13:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

I think this user breaks the Wikipedia:Username policy by adding "ADMIN" to his/her username. Should anything be done?--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 01:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the context makes it clear that he claims to be an admin of FreeMafiaGame (FMG), not of Wikipedia. — CharlotteWebb 01:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless. Its still misleading and inappropriate. The policy clearly prohibits this type of username. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 02:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Update. Its been reported at WP:UAA, which is where this should have gone in the first place. Marking as resolved. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 02:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Cheers.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 03:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see he's been blocked, adding insult to injury as I doubt anyone expected him to continue editing after the abrasive welcome. All in a day's work I guess. Blehhhh... — CharlotteWebb 11:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usernames that need to be instantly blocked go to UAA. Otherwise it's better to take them to WP:RFCN, after discussion with the user. Don't forget that WP policies might be confusing to new editors, and that it's easy for a good faith editor to pick a "bad" username. We don't want to scare away good faith editors, eh? Dan Beale-Cocks 13:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

I have a question that I would like to ask an admin via email. Any volunteers?--Urban Rose 03:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm open. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 03:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sent.--Urban Rose 03:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is the right place for this, if not please redirect me.

A friend of mine wrote a wikipedia article about me. He was just being ridiculous, knowing it would get deleted. However, he used full names of people, and made the article pretty racey. This is not a huge problem for me, however, my father found the article, and was not impressed. The article was deleted. However, google "cached" it. This means it took a "Snapshot" of the article in case it got deleted so that it could be viewed in case of deletion. My father googled my name, and thus got this article. So regardless of it's deletion, it is still there.

My proposal was to make another article about myself ONLY UNTIL it was "cached" by google, and then just get rid of it. The article can be blank or whatever, I don't really care. I just want the new cache to replace the old one to get this off of the internet.

Also, I first asked "faithlessthewonderboy" for help, and he was of great assistance in redirecting me and stuff. Give him a cookie or something, he's a nice guy.

http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:jCg3nNE3KD0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Feldmeier+Jacob+Keith+feldmeier&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

That's the google cache of it.

As I am new to wiki, and know nothing of how my account works, please respond to me by writing to <removed>. I realize this is a bit of an inconvenience, but it would help me so much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forrizzledog (talk • contribs) 04:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have concerns about Google's caching, please contact them at [4]. Nakon 05:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I'm mistaken, the cache should clear itself, since the page no longer exists. -- Ned Scott 07:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's correct. Although, as said above, you can contact Google and request that they remove the cached version, I'm fairly sure they'd be happy to help out. J Milburn (talk) 07:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree not a bad idea to contact them, as the cache may show up for quite a while. Jussen (talk) 07:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's up to you whether you contact Google or not, do what you think is best. If you which to remove the cache as quickly as possible, then it may be an idea to do so, but it will inevitably disappear before long. Lradrama 15:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who Shot Mr. Burns? looks like a GFDL problem. If you look at this history snippet, two separate pages with greatly overlapping histories were both moved into this spot. As a result, you have a plethora of diffs like these where you jump back and forth between part 1 and part 2: [5] [6] [7] [8], etc., etc. I haven't determined how far back this goes but here are similar diffs from May 2007: [9] [10] [11]. Do we need to try and untangle these or just leave it alone now? —Wknight94 (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As long as all the material in the article was added by edits in the past and there are no current copy-paste issues in the article, this is just an ugly merge that doesn't need anything. MBisanz ^talk 15:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understood that merges like this were not supposed to be done. Notice WP:SPLICE#Requests which cannot be fulfilled where various admins refuse to do merges with overlapping histories. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK this is the only way to properly merge two pages, where the cotent of the final revision reflects material from both prior pages. In the future we will have the Merge feature, but right now I think this method of overlapping histories is the only way. MBisanz ^talk 15:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(I meant WP:SPLICE#Requests which cannot be fulfilled in my last message - so repaired...) Another thing to read is WP:HM#A troublesome case which recommends skipping the history merge and simply adding a note to the talk page. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well I only know of one or two admins who have the skill and patience to undo a history merge, so it might be a moot point. User:Rjd0060 did the merge, so maybe ask him his thoughts. MBisanz ^talk 16:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies. I know it is an ugly merge, but its done. There is no reason to think that the merge shouldn't have been done. Not sure what you want to accomplish here, Wknight94. Feel free to let me know if I can be of any help. Rjd0060 (talk) 21:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it was supposed to be done like that, but if no one agrees, then I must be wrong. Hence why I didn't pursue any further. If no one else cares, then neither do I. —Wknight94 (talk) 23:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure Wknight is right; my understanding is, when you merge articles with long, overlapping histories, you add a null edit to the target article, and a note on its talk page, pointing to the other article's history, and keep that page alive, as a redirect. Otherwise, the combined history is almost useless.

I'm also pretty sure that MBisanz is right, this would be ugly to undo. I think we should just live with this. The GFDL is technically satisfied, and there are certainly worse situations floating around out there. --barneca (talk) 00:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

History merges are not difficult to undo - just time consuming. Viridae^Talk 03:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Hello Wikipedia administrators, recently I have noticed a user editing my talk page requesting that I remove a mention to Gavin Wims (a deleted article), the user User:gavinwims (who claimes to be Gavin Wims) continues to ask me to remove this from my talk page. The said section of my talk page is a dicussion with another user about my placing a speedily deletion tag on Gavin Wims. After looking at User:gavinwims's contributions I see that I good persentage of his contributions to this site are to my talk page. This leads me to beleve that the user is a sockpuppet of the author of Gavin Wims. However, as the article is deleted; I would like the deleted history of the page to be sent to me so that I can see who created the page. I wish to be able to see this before I take it to Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets as I feal that without this information I would be in violation of WP:AGF. Thank you in advance! Mww113 (talk) (Report a mistake!) 16:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article was created by, and all significant edits came from, User:Jmccarthy96. Happy‑melon 16:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Mww113 (talk) (Report a mistake!) 18:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Gavin Wims has been cleared of all sockpuppetry charges. Mww113 (talk) 12:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors

Can someone fix the wording to "Skirmishes erupt in Beirut between supporters..."? Thanks, Spencer^T♦C 16:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems it's already been changed. Happy‑melon 16:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. The wording in ITN says, "Skirmishes between supporters of Lebanon's government and the opposition erupt in Beirut." while the prefered wording is "Skirmishes erupt in Beirut between supporters..." And you might want to see the following link: Template_talk:In_the_news#Image_is_fair_use. Spencer^T♦C 18:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now it has. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 02:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An anonymous user with various IPs from Hong Kong, identifying himself as Edward G. Nilges – also known as Spinoza1111 (talk · contribs) – is edit warring on Herbert Schildt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). He claims BLP issues because we are reporting public statements by experts saying that Schildt's books contain factual errors. Looks like a conspiracy theory to me. I am not familiar with the exact status of this user (banned or just blocked) and the fine points of our policies. Is it OK to edit war with him? How about temporary semiprotection of this BLP page? --Hans Adler (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While I haven't decided on the third source in that section, "public statements by experts" are irrelevant as far as BLPs are concerned, when those statements are negative. In fact, no criticisms should be included that are sourcable only to self-published sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From the BLP noticeboard discussion I was under the impression that this is not a BLP issue. If you think otherwise you should comment there. --Hans Adler (talk) 09:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have a couple of issues happening at TfD. First of all, we have a backlog that goes back a couple of weeks. Any help would be appreciated. Secondly, right now, the bot that has been updating the pages daily is malfunctioning. So the pages are not being updated promptly. What does updating the pages involve? At 00:00 UTC, the previous day needs to be put under Current discussions and the 8th day before today needs to be put under Old Discussions so they can be closed. This is a summary of what needs to be done. Also, the current day needs to have ===Current Date=== added to the top of it. For example, today is ===May 11===. Any help would be appreciated as right now I'm the only one doing it and I can't get to it until 6-7 hours after 00:00 has been hit. It's causing discussions being placed in the wrong spot and other formatting stuff. Thanks! --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 09:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone please take a look at Erich Kofmel. The content is referenced, but highly POV and negative. I'm not sure if this counts as a G10 CSD, or if it should be dealt with in another manner. --Deadly∀ssassin 10:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted the article as a G10 speedy deletion and as a repost of an article deleted from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Erich Kofmel. Davewild (talk) 10:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for your quick action, I wasn't aware of the AfD discussion. --Deadly∀ssassin 10:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:TharkunColl has been reported previously for blindly reverting articles without reasons or discussion. See here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive414#Wikistalking here for details. He is also the subject of the thread above entitled "Edit-Warring/Repeatedly deleting text with deliberately misleading edit summaries". It is clear that this editor is behaving in a disruptive manner. Whether or not he agrees or disagrees with the other editors or content, he must accept that this behaviour is not acceptable, and is disruptive. --Bardcom (talk) 11:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop harrassing me with spurious and frivolous complaints all the time. Reverting an edit is not vandalism, as you have repeatedly called it. TharkunColl (talk) 13:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tharky, as has been pointed out to you before on numberous occassions, reverting an edit without discussion or comment is vandalism. This is an incident requiring administrative attention and possible intervention. --Bardcom (talk) 14:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not vandalism - as has been pointed out to you, on your own talkpage, by others. In any case, in my last edits I provided a summary. Satisfied? TharkunColl (talk) 14:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Despite your protestations, it *is* vandalism. And should an admin take the time to check your behaviour, they'll find that your behaviour is very disruptive, and whether it is related to a concept of content-dispute or not, this behaviour should not be tolerated. --Bardcom (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

- _{My mistake creating this, per the deleted talk page consensus. --1qx (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)}[reply]

I'm just informing admins of this essay I wrote: feel free to tweak it as much as you want. Ta, --1qx (talk) 12:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, sometime back I requested slanderous information be removed from the abovementioned article on David L Cook. The information was inflamnatory and was to be deleted. I got a response that the information was removed and not able to be seen in the history. However, when I went to look this morning at the article, I found this; [12] and this one, [13]. I cannot seem to get anyone to answer me at oversight. Can you please remove these from the edit history so that other people cannot find this stuff? It could prove to be very defaming for this subject. It was already removed by one admin at Oversight, but I guess somehow it did not get deleted from these two. Maybe it was because of the rollback? Canyouhearmenow 14:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The issue has been resolved. Thank you Canyouhearmenow 14:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – There's no admin action necessary here. Discussion is on talk page, or take to WP:DR —Alex.Muller 17:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to bring to your attention about users Jza84 (talk · contribs) and Joshii (talk · contribs) and how they may cause an edit war. These two users are insisting that their home town of Manchester have a picture on the census population template on the UK. According to the census, Manchester is the ninth largest city, and the two images on these templates should be first largest city then second largest city. I wrote on the talk about it, and they still continue to insist on this. Can I get an opinion on this. — NuclearVacuum 14:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This should be taken to WP:Dispute resolution, not the admin noticeboard. Neither me nor Jza84 are seeking to start a war, it is yourself who is not trying to reach a consensus and is instead deciding only your opinion counts. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 14:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above article covers a reality tv show which is currently airing in the UK. Each week there are two shows, one airs on Saturday and the Results show on Sunday. However, only the Saturday show is live. The Sunday Result show is recorded about an hour after the Saturday show finishes and then shown "as live" on Sunday without the results actually being released before the show airs. Each week on the Results show two contestants enter a "sing-off" and one of them is then eliminated from the show from that sing-off. There is a hidden message on the article on the "Finalists" section requesting that the details of the Sunday show are not added until after that show airs. Despite this for a number of the weeks details of the Results show have been added before the show airs. Yet again it has happened today with full details of who was in the sing-off, what song they sung in that sing-off and which one of them was eliminated. It usually seems to be IP users who enter this information. Should I be requesting semi-protection of the page at the relevant noticeboard so that IP users and new users can't edit? I have yet again removed the details from tonights show and added yet another hidden note asking for details not to be added until the show airs. Any advice would be great. Thank you.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 15:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could try asking at WP:RFPP on the Saturday afternoon for 31 hours semi-protection - that'd expire after the Sunday show had been broadcast. _GB^T/C 16:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there are reliable sources that prove this is true, IMO it should stay in the article. D.M.N. (talk) 16:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The point being though that there are no reliable sources when it is added before the show airs. The content being added is not verifiable until the show airs, as the information is not being released prior to that. And with it being added in advance it is then ruining the show for those who watch it without knowing the result, which is the vast majority of viewers and readers of wikipedia. In addition at no time during the series when the details have been added in advance has it ever been added with a source - because there are no sources, the information is not released in advance. If you check the edit history you would see that none of these edits have included a source. And for all anyone else knows before the show airs, the edits could be completely false. Also the show is aired "as live" without the result being known beforehand.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 16:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You'll have to concentrate on the "lack of reliable sources" part to get anywhere. You'll find that no-one cares about spoilers, and it'll end up in some weird edit war. Dan Beale-Cocks 17:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which is fair enough and is easily done as when the edits are added there are never any reliable sources and so aren't verifiable until the shows air. And none of the edits have ever included a source simply because there aren't any when they are added. Cheers for all the replies anyway.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 17:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just as a FYI about the above. After the show aired tonight, the information added earlier today by an IP user about the eliminated contestant and the sing-off was all totally false. Wrong person, wrong song they sang and completely made up comments supposedly made about her by Andrew Lloyd Webber.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 19:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the information is factual, there is no reason to omit it from the article. Kingturtle (talk) 21:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The user Muscovite99 is continually removing sourced statistics from the Putin article. First he said the material was OR, then after I explained it to him he attacked the sources (Associated press and MSNBC). He said "The hacks you quote have absolutely no idea what they're writing" and "the figure plucked from MSNBC wiretape was written by some one who (CIA or not) is an absolute ignoramus." (see discussion), even though I made it clear that he was violationg WP:V. He ended up getting blocked for 48 hours for violating 3RR. Now he's back from his block, and the first thing he does is revert back and remove the statistics. He now says the material is poorly sourced/original research, even though the material is clearly and perfectly sourced.

Also, during his block a suspected sockpuppet, Trysty, removed the same material here. The suspected sockpuppet is a one purpose account (looks like he made some very minor edits to other articles to try and make it less obvious, as well as making his name blue), and notice how he used the comment box citing wiki policy, and even uses the same rationalle for removing the statistics.

Muscovite99: "Put back the proper source - the article is about Putin and his word should be taken over AP claims or Krawn's original research about PPP and "nominal GDP"

Trysty: "Apparent WP:OR -- the cited source does not speak of PPP or "nominal GDP" -- per WP:V" Krawndawg (talk) 19:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of those articles Trysty edited, Gennady Timchenko, rather obscure, has been edited by Muscovite as well diff. Krawndawg (talk) 19:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Just a note: i removed Krawndawg's conjectural interpretation of a source (the AP article he bases his claims about GDP in terms of "PPP" and "nominal GDP", contains no such thing, and thus his frivolous insertions of the terms constitute original reaearch) in accordance with WP:BLP#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material, which inter alia states: "The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals". I mention the latter as I avail myself of this opportunity to state that my recent blocking was not per WP:POL.Muscovite99 (talk) 19:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Also I should like to draw the attention to the exceedingly rude and obscene language that is habitually employed by Krawndawg in his communication with other editors, such as these [14] [15].Muscovite99 (talk) 19:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Lets look at the differences here.

• The version you just reverted said: "the economy bounced back from crisis seeing GDP increase six-fold"

• The article says: "Average wages rose eightfold during Putin's eight years as president, from roughly $80 a month to $640, and GDP sixfold."

What's original research? What's contentious? (do you even know what that word means?)

And even though I've already explained it to you, Putin was talking about the PPP GDP, which did indeed grow 72% over the past 8 years. There is no conflicting information here, the only problem is your ignorance on the subject and your inability to differentiate between nominal (normal) and PPP GDP.Krawndawg (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I am not going to discuss any thing related to the subject of the article as it is pointless to debate with a person who had already opened the debate with the assertion addressed to me «you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I don't feel it's my job to educate you»[16]. I shall only repeat your correct words (apply them to your very fascinating inquisitions about "PPP" et al): "That's a very interesting opinion, but wikipedia is not a soap box or blog, nor is it the place for original research."[17].Muscovite99 (talk) 20:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[Also all this economics numbers have no place in a biographical article per WP:BLP].Muscovite99 (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at this. That's the economic growth of Russia, in both nominal and PPP figures, according to the IMF. Those figures are identical to the sourced figures that I inserted into the article and that you continually remove.

Please revert yourself and in the future do your research the next time you decide to bring up such a silly debate about verifiable facts. Krawndawg (talk) 20:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• This appears to be a content dispute, although one that appears to also include possible socking, allegations of incivility, the questioning of sources that have been held as reliable in many other contexts, and the interpretation of sources. In all, this is not a sysop matter (as yet). I suggest that a form of dispute resolution is attempted, possibly a request for comment. That said, my reading of the above suggests that Muscovite99 is arguing from fairly shaky grounds - the statement of a politician (especially regarding their own constituency) being more reliable than a reliable source? I think not. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is obvious that nominal GDP is irrelevant. Most serious studies analyze real GDP (i.e. inflation adjusted GDP). --Doopdoop (talk) 20:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My main complaint here isn't about the content. It's the fact that he's violating WP:V by removing correct and well sourced information (regardless of what it is), and is suspected to have used a sockpuppet during a block. Krawndawg (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a consensus you can point to that indicates that the sources are agreed as being reliable, rather than quoting the policy? While I have sympathy with your argument that reliable sources are being removed it is not considered vandalism where there is good faith belief that it isn't a reliable source - or can you provided evidence that it is not a good faith belief no matter how inappropriate it might seem. Until there is evidence that the editor is acting either against consensus or in bad faith there is nothing an admin can do except suggest taking it to dispute resolution. Once there is a clear line then an admin can act to ensure there are no violations of policy/consensus. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well isn't the fact that he keeps changing his story enough evidence? He stopped calling them unreliable sources, then started using the "PPP" argument to justify removing it. To me it's pretty clear that he just doesn't want the information that GDP grew 6fold on the article no matter what, this is evident if you look at his posts in the articles discussion page. Krawndawg (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Is there a consensus you can point to that indicates that the sources are agreed as being reliable, rather than quoting the policy?" - Does that mean if I gain consensus on the reliable sources notice board it will change anything? Krawndawg (talk) 21:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken the opportunity to fully review the complaint, and while I feel that it is still in the basis of a content dispute I acknowledge that Muscovite99 was incorrect in insisting that the sources mentioned should be removed, and for edit warring over their removal; the policy being Bold, Revert, Discuss. The content should remain unless Muscovite99 can change the consensus to that they are inappropriate by use of debate on the article talkpage. I shall advise Muscovite accordingly, commenting that any further removal of content without consensus is vandalism and can therefore be reported to WP:AIV as such. I suggest, although with little expectation of agreement, that you continue to engage this person in discussion regarding the validity of sources and their interpretation. I hope this suffices. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's the current position regarding a WP:BADSITE's campaign to add a slogan to your wikipedia page, which they then google to contact you? More specifically, should this be reverted? Blocked? Ignored? Could someone who understands our current policy (there must be someone) have a look? — iridescent 21:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have an ongoing discussion on WP:RSN regarding the RS-ness of the boxofficeindia.com site. I am of the view that it is not RS but some defenders of the site as a RS point to the less than a handful of citings of that site in RSes and are arguing that a source automatically becomes RS once it gets cited (even if only once) in a RS source. Atleast one editor has also opined that it is OK to use the "best sources we have" at hand even if they are not demonstrably RS. I neither see any merit in these arguments nor do I see any evidence of WP:RS and WP:SPS lending credence to these arguments. In fact, imo these arguments go against the very grain of WP:RS. I will be grateful if some eyes from here can take a look at the discussion and weigh in. Thanks. Sarvagnya 21:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]