Current issues

I'd like to ask the opinions of administrators regarding the addition of a notice about Wikipedia:Television episodes/RFC Episode Notability to the Template:Watchlist-notice. Yesterday User:Riana helped me add the notice as I had little clue how the code works; the edit was reverted a few minutes later by an administrator (User:Phil Sandifer), who asserted that the issue didn't meet the "requirements" of inclusion, which in fact did not exist (in written form). There was a brief discussion which went nowhere here, for some background information. As far as I am aware, four users who got involved have agreed to adding the RFC notice, including User:Hiding, User:Riana, User:Seraphim Whipp and me (three of whom are administrators); User:Phil Sandifer was the only one who expressed his disapproval on the grounds that the notice would set "too massive a precedent" (which I considered a slippery slope), his view makes me doubt whether he appreciates the importance of this RFC notice. I'm posting here because I'm sure a many users who visit this noticeboard regularly in the past year are aware of the considerable controversy which have led to numerous reports concerning the matter on this very page. It's not necessary to set strict limits against a move that would definitely help improve the project (and this is worth a consideration of WP:IAR), but that's just my opinion. Comments please? - PeaceNT (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked at the discussion, so this is just my general opinion. I think that the use of the watchlist notice needs to be kept rare, so that it can be used to convey rare but critical news to editors. My feeling is that this means that ordinary content discussions should not go on the watchlist notice, since that would mean it was more or less always used. There are many other ways to announce them: village pumps and the centralized discussion are two. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly recommend you read the original discussion first, where PeaceNT, in my opinion, has given some indubitably good points reasoning her decision to add the notice on the watchlist. In addtion, as you seem to be unaware of what is going on in the assumed "ordinary content discussions", let me recapitulate the situation. The practice of WP:EPISODE and WP:FICT has long been the focus of altercation among both the editors whose editing fields are directly concerned and other unconcerned. This debate was initiated from a phenomenon of tempestuous redirection and merging, continued escalating to 2 RfCs , one arbitration case and advancing to the threshold of the second arbcom. The ongoing RfC, aforethoughtly or not, was placed in a subpage of Wikipedia talk:Television episodes, thus it doesn't draw enough attention from editors who have interest in the debate like it should have done. Furthermore, your suggestion to popularize the existence of the discussion will undoubtedly fail to work out since many people rarely or never visit village pumps (myself included). However, with a notice on watchlist, the effect undoubtedly can't be denied. Once again, I have to address that this discussion is of great importance, for its influence may lead up to a new conception of notability. Perhaps some sketches above help you visualize the situation and reconsider your opinion. @pple complain 14:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was aware that this subject has spawned two arbitration cases, has been discussed on the mailing list, and has otherwise been ostentatious. Editors who want to comment on issues like this need to check the village pumps from time to time; those are the designated forums for community discussion. Of course an RFC that is only publicized on the episodes page won't get much attention. But if it is listed at the village pump, the "centralized discussion" list, and the RFC list, that is more than adequate notice for editors who are paying attention. As I said, I prefer to save the watchlist notice for use on a very occasional basis. Disputes like this happen frequently enough that they would never leave the watchlist notice blank, which would lead to an erosion of its utility. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, it turned out that you have been fully aware of the dispute in question. What bother me is your description of such event as "ordinary content discussions", which is an unthoughtful undervaluation with respect to the colossal impact of the debate outcome on a significant division of encyclopedic topics. It decides the inclusion of thousands of articles on Wikipedia; it is believed to be the determinant factor in policy/guideline reestablishment and redefinition of notability concept. If this kind of dispute happens frequently as you state, I really doubt the fast development of Wikipedia as nowadays. The contribution of editors, which should be mobilized as much as possible, is the core material for discussion advancement. How many events in the year that need a watchlist notification? Is the number of usage excessive enough to the extent that we have to "save" it for "occasional basis"? Or only some events like arbcom and steward elections that take the merit of having notification? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; the debate is directly related to the kernel of Wikipedia: articles. A notice just bringing beneficial result does no harm but good to the project. Additionally, you seem to hold of the wrong end of the stick. I know that village pumps are designated as forums for community discussion, I know that the dispute is listed dispersively somewhere else. But what is the point here? Does an editor who yearly does the work of an editor bother to go to the RfC list to check if there is recent event related to her field of editing? Would she suddenly find it interesting to pay a visit to VP and discover a dispute notification among other numerous notifications like that? We can't wait the luck to come and faithlessly hope somebody will find it somewhere. There comes the proposal of watchlist notice, a simple method that warrants the certainty that almost all of editors, concerned or unconcerned, are well-informed. @pple complain 17:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One option that may help is to put the Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion template on your user page or user talk page. Similarly, some editors put a table of RFA candidates on their talk page, so they "don't miss any". Among the recent issues that could conceivably be suggested for putting on the watchlist are:

• The ambox implemention (standardization of cleanup message boxes)
• Disagreements with articles about highways
• Disagreements about articles for TV characters and episodes
• Proposals for new speedy deletion criteria
• Disagreements about the manual of style
• Changes or rewrites of any number of policies and guidelines
• The issue of nonfree images in list articles
• Other issues with deletion of nonfree images, and rationales for nonfree images
• Issues with WP:N and other notability standards.
• Issues with articles about Palestine and Israel, or Kurdistan, or other contentious topics

All of these are being discussed, in various forums, right now. In my mind, although the disagreements about TV episode articles are serious, so are the other issues above. And I am sure my perspective is very limited, and there are many other important discussions that I have missed. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm the one that set up the RFC and made sure it was announced at WP:VPP and (eventually, thanks to a misfiring bot) onto the RFCPolicy page, but as I've noted, I have never seen the watchlist notification used for something so specific, and about content as well. It would have been one thing if the ultimate question "Is or is not Wikipedia a fan guide?" (this question is not being asked, this is just an example!) which would have significantly more impact than the episodes RFC and even then, I don't think it's an automatic inclusion in the watchlist notifications.

Arguably, it would be nicer if there was a way to guide people to certain pages if they would like to help and understand policy more ((WP:VPP is not readily connected to the typical Welcome message), but that's exactly what those type of places are for - wide area announcements of issues that likely do not affect the whole of Wikipedia. --MASEM 14:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've given a suggestion of using WikiProject banners as ways to give mass notification to a set of articles, as seen on Template:WikiProject DIGI. Personally, I'd like for such an RfC to be more organized and have a wider scope before being on a watchlist notice. Just putting a notice on and saying "go to X page" isn't enough, and newcomers need some kind of summary or context. This RfC is also just one step of a larger issue within the episode-article debate. -- Ned Scott 04:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By my estimate, if we had an article on every episode ever of every American television program in the last 50 years (which we don't) that wouldn't crack 5% of the total encyclopedia. To say that this is of wide concern involves a fundamental miscalculation of scale - 95% of articles have nothing to do with this, and we can assume a similar percentage of editors. To start using the watchlist notice for this level of wide appeal diminishes the usefulness of the notice. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Phil, your estimate is on the conservative side by a country mile. You've only covered the US. If we broaden it out to only the larger English speaking countries which this wiki is nominally supposed to cover we need to multiply by something like five, (Australia, Canada, the Commonwealth Caribbean, Ireland, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States of America), giving us potentially a quarter of the encyclopedia. Other than that, I think there needs to be wider input into the issue at the RFC, and would appreciate any other options for getting this out to the widest possible audience. Hiding T 12:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes - you can expand it a fair bit. You can also point out that I assumed hour-long shows, and many shows are/were half-hour. Though the international thing won't expand it five-fold: notably I was estimating five networks producing 18 hours a week for 22 weeks of the year for the US - an output that the other countries don't come close to matching.
  • Here's the thing, though: List of I Love Lucy episodes. List of Full House episodes. NYPD Blue currently has season pages instead of episode pages. Most reality shows go with season pages. Which is going to backslide you dramatically from the 5% number, especially since outside of a few "crown jewels" of other countries (Doctor Who) you don't have episode by episode coverage of most of them. Even Slings & Arrows, Due South and Sandbaggers don't have episode by episode coverage. Which is why I wasn't too worried about leaving out international television - because I knew the assumption that we actually had episode-by-episode coverage of all of the shows was going to inflate the number to well higher than it could possibly be in reality.
  • To give you an idea of the drop-off, looking at 2007-08 United States network television schedule (figuring that presentist bias will give us an upper bound on episode-by-episode coverage - that is, more shows from this season will have episode by episode coverage than any other season). My estimate was for 90 shows that would produce episode articles. In reality, there are a total of 83 separate shows running. Of those we have articles on more than the first two episodes of 23 of them. So optimistically, we probably have 25% as many articles on episodes of American television as I estimated. And, again, that's factoring a massive presentist bias in. If you go back to 1975-76 United States network television schedule we don't even have articles on every *series,* little yet every episode - there, again, I assumed 90 shows worth of episodes. In reality there are only 60 shows there, and only 2 have episode articles, meaning the number for that season was actually only 2% of what I estimated. So even with the ignoring of international television, my 5% estimate was high. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, I give. I still think we need a line in the sand on which episodes get coverage, but that's not the debate here. Hiding T 13:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not that you should be sorry to lose me. The administrator Tyrenius (talk) 05:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC) welcomed me here only about a month ago. If you look at the new notice on my user page, you'll probably feel I'm too angry, too unfair, and didn't give WP enough chance. Perhaps so. Very briefly, my reasons are:[reply]

• I feel that Wikipedians are too involved with process (guidelines, policies) items that are good in themselves -- but easily become restrictive and a goal in themselves. People game the system, and use legalism for their own agenda. Meanwhile, I know what you think a "good article" is, but I find it hard to visualize writing what I'd think is "good." Simply put, there's too much tunnel vision - in the name of ideas that were originally good.
• I'm deeply offended and hurt by WP's continued refusal to allow LGBT users a category, such as "gay wikipedians," so those who wish to can identify ourselves. Our oppression in the larger society is caused by the fact that we're pressured to hide -- and then people can pretend we're just a fringe group that makes no contribution to society. WP expects to continue the same policy, to rip off what we can give but not let us identify our otherwise maligned group, even only to other editors.

I would point out that the user Avruchtalk happened to be the immediate cause of my anger spilling over in both of these areas. Last evening, he unilaterally, illogically moved my discussion contributions to an area where they wouldn't be seem. And then he topped that off by informing me that he'd been the one who nominated Category:Gayass Wikipedians for deletion -- and, with the discussion still open, it was a done deal that I'd better learn to accept. His actions are not by any means the only ones leading to my decision to leave -- but they are beautifully symbolic of the issues.

Good bye.William P. Coleman (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I object to the implicit insult in Coleman's many 'sign-off' posts (each one is the last one). I am not anti-homosexual, homophobic, bigoted, biased against gay people, whatever else you'd like to throw at me to see what sticks. I merely cleaned up an AfD, where the consensus after the fact is that it was unproblematic to do so. (This is the Adult-chid sex AfD). Coincidentally, Coleman also is apparently a recent member of the "Gayass Wikipedian" category, which I nominated at UCfD and which is headed for deletion. I attempted to leave explanatory notes on Coleman's user talk, but apparently to no effect. Its unfortunate that a new editor was unable to find a role for himself in this community; it seems as if he is unable to embrace the essence of NPOV. Some people find it impossible to check their personal opinions at the door. If Coleman finds at some point in the future that perhaps he can accomplish this task, then I hope he returns. ^Avruchtalk 23:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd also like to express some disappointment that it appears no one has refuted his implication of bias in my actions on this page or any of the others (so far as I know, I haven't checked them all). ^Avruchtalk 23:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a hell of a lot of homophobia on Wikipedia, and a profound unwillingness from admins-in-general (there are of course some honourable exceptions) to root it out. I can readily understand why an editor should become so disillusioned as to need to leave. DuncanHill (talk) 19:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sexual orientation is irrelevant here. This is an encyclopedia, not a singles bar. HalfShadow (talk) 19:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with "singles bars". Building an encyclopædia of this nature requires that all editors are able to edit honestly and openly - something which is prevented by the attitudes and actions of certain users. DuncanHill (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do hope that you're referring to something more than a few categories being deleted. – Steel 19:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that comment wasn't meant to sound as snidey as it did.DuncanHill (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that User:HalfShadow assumed that a category identifying gay Wikipedians would purely be used as a dating service, probably sums up the original poster's point more succinctly that anything else could. BLACKKITE 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the topic creator seems to think the fact that he's gay matters in any way, shape, or form says quite a lot as well. He is what he is: does he need a badge for it? HalfShadow (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)With all due respect to William P. Coleman and DuncanHill, the fact that these categories cause so much upset and dispute is the reason we delete them. There is nothing stopping people expressing their sexuality on Wikipedia (I'm heterosexual, if anyone cares) but there is no need for a category. Deleting these categories is not intended to be homophobia- we would also delete a category for heterosexual Wikipedians. We delete them because they do not aid us in building the encyclopedia, and, if anything, they slow us down through the disputes they cause. J Milburn (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed about the categories; I was merely commenting on the assumption made by HalfShadow. BLACKKITE 20:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sorry, it was you I edit conflicted with, I intended my reply to come after DuncanHill's comment at 19:47. J Milburn (talk) 20:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've been here since 2004. I've been repeatedly attacked by vandals because I've openly declared that I'm gay. But never once has anyone who cared about the encyclopedia - even people I've got into huge editing disputes with, even people I've picked fights with, even people with strong conservative or religious views - ever even mentioned sexuality. We don't here. In fact, people lose arguments, badly and permanently, if they try to play any form of sex, sexuality, race, religion, etc, card. We don't do it. This place is amazing for that. And it works both ways: I've defended people under attack from vandals or for their editing style even when they've got userboxen calling for my basic rights to be curtailed; I've had barnstars from people who declare that homosexuality is wrong, and have given barnstars to such people. They are, of course, entitled to their worthless views ;o) There is a community here, and people who act outside that community sooner rather than later end up exiting it. And the community has decided, a long time ago, that everyone has a right to challenge any element of community structure - templates, user pages, categories - and each case is taken on its merits. The community decides if we need specific groups to be identified and in what way. So, William P. Coleman, please stay. HalfShadow, please don't make sweeping judgements. Avruch, if you're about, feel free to deny Mr Coleman's point and we'll believe you. But battling over the subject of what editors do when they're not editing is something we try not to do. We are here only to build an encyclopaedia, after all. ➔ REDVEЯS is standing in the dark 20:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A category is not just "identifying yourself", it's maintaining a list, and the decision was made that there's no good reason to have such a list. —Random832 20:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen editors personally attacked and accused of being pædophiles because they opposed deletion of a category for homophobes - and admins took no action against the attacker for this. This does not inspire confidence in the ability or willingness of admins to act against homophobia. I would add that the community can be wrong - and I say it is wrong when it says that Wikipedians by ethnicity or by religion are acceptable user categories, yet Wikipedians by sexuality aren't, and I believe that it is displaying homophobia whenever it restates this position. DuncanHill (talk) 20:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict): I am looking at this from the periphery ... part of the problem is that there have been perennial disputes about whether Article space and User space or Wikpedia space should intersect in meaningful ways. The Userbox wars were in part about the intersection between Template and User spaces. Likewise there has been a lowerkey (as far as I've seen) UserCat war that is similarly about the intersection between Category and User spaces. One thing I've seen over and over again is people putting forth one mechanistic solution - like using a category - and not seeking alternative mechanisms; oftentimes mechanism changes can, in fact, defuse conflicts of this sort. So here is my suggestion - use a subpage of Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT as a point of recognition for sexual orientation with the legitimate argument that persons belonging to a community have a valuable perspective on that community which has a positive impact on the encyclopedia. Placing this under the rubrick of the LGBT WP provides 'ownership' for the resource, which might allay some of the concerns of persons who are against (for whatever reason) sharing this type of information. As far as the argument that such a list should not exist at all, a great deal of latitude is provided to WikiProjects with regard to the creation of resources that are felt to advance the encyclopedia-building activities of the group of similarly inclined editors around which a WikiProject forms. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I take my usual position here - that categories that appear to be irrelevant to the purpose of writing the encyclopedia are valuable for community-building and building support circles, which provide incentive and motivation for many encyclopedia-related activities. People who interact are bound to collaborate, and any structure promoting this is a good thing. Dcoetzee 22:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is rather the point of a wikiproject, is it not? Putting me in a category that says I am a fan of the Calgary Flames does not serve to enhance collaboration. My membership in WP:HOCKEY, however, does. More to the point, my being a nominally Christian Canadian does not automatically mean I am particularly interested in editing topics related to Christianity or Canada. So no, putting me in such categories does not enhance collaboration at all. Same is true of virtually every user category. There are better mechanisms in place to enhance collaboration. Resolute 23:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Need for user pages?

Does user pages help Wikipedia at all? Is it just a concession to myspace? My user page is only 5 characters more than the minimum. It says hello. No user boxes. No fancy graphics. I can see the value of talk pages, but user pages? We'd save bandwidth and controversy. If there is an explanation why user pages are useful, I am open minded. Spevw (talk) 01:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My userpage here is not as sparse as yours, but for an example of highly useful userpages, see mine at enwikibooks. My toolbox provides insane convinence, and the number of "why did you delete that?" and "what does {{nld}} mean?" threads on my talk page have dropped to almost nothing due to the header, which also appears collapsed at the top of my talk page. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 02:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A user page is a desktop from which to work on the encyclopedia. Sometimes there are bobble head dolls or a stand-up "I love (insert state here)!" cardboard cutout vying for space alongside an in-box and a pile of partially written reports, and that is what you will see when walking down the corridor past open cubicles on the way to your next meeting in most office settings. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 04:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. Perfect metaphor. I completely agree. нмŵוτнτ 06:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well my Wikipedia user page predates MySpace, so they've been around for a long time. Their intent is to help build community, to provide a clue about the personality of its owner. (Mine is utalitarian but somewhat raggedy-looking because I'd rather spend my time getting content into Wikipedia than making it look nice. Or else because I'm lazy. Take your pick.) I wish more people would take a moment & put someting on their user pages -- not userboxen, or fancy graphics or images. Just something about oneself, one's interests, one's background as far as it's relevant to Wikipedia. Then if I need to talk to them, I have a sense of how to present myself to them. -- llywrch (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Visibility

A Gay Wikipedians category establishes visibility. It's easy to allow the inertia of systemic bias to remain when the issue is relatively low on the radar. However, such a category helps support WP's goals of harmonious collaboration by giving those who identify as "Gayass Wikipedians" (and I'm one of them) the same kind of respect as say, oh I don't know, "Christian Wikipedians". Seriously, can you imagine the furor if WP editors tried to WP:Censor Christians from self-identifying? Please. No really, let's go back and reread this whole thread replacing "gay" with "Christian", or "Jewish", or "Muslim". If a gay usercat is verboten, then all usercats should be. I'll be blunt, this seems an awful lot like bigotry.

Visibility of self-identified gay or queer editors makes for a more welcoming editing environment. Categories also allow new editors to find a community - and yes, technically, a list on a project talk page is good, but again, not that visible or accessible. It can take new users a while to get into the backdrop of WP, and sometimes a while is all it takes for new users to feel like they lack a voice, become disenchanted, and leave. Besides, I find all sorts of neat stuff (relevant and useful to WP) on other users' talk pages, pages I find in user categories. As to Resolute's point about being a Christian/Canadian, it doesn't hold water, as usercats are chosen by the user. If usercats are not relevant to an editor's interests, s/he is under no obligation to use them. Phyesalis (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Either we allow all such good faith categories, or we delete them all. I would favor deleting them all, including Category:Christian Wikipedians, Category:Jewish Wikipedians and Category:Muslim Wikipedians because they are divisive, and Wikipedia is not a social networking site. It's not about us the editors. If editors want to group together, they can form a WikiProject. Jehochman ^Talk 14:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I find this discussion interesting in light of: [+] Wikipedians by education, [+] Wikipedians by ethnicity and nationality, [+] Wikipedians by hardware, [+] Wikipedians by interest, [+] Wikipedians by language, [+] Wikipedians by location, [+] Wikipedians by philosophy, [+] Wikipedians by profession, [+] Wikipedians by religion, [+] Wikipedians by skill, [+] Wikipedians by software

I would like the above editors supportive of deleting sexuality as a cat, come out boldly in favor of, and actually submit dels on all these user cats. Is location relevant, is religion relevant, is skill or software or hardware relevant? Thanks I look forward to seeing massive amounts of cat deletions. Whoo Hooo. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion nomination withdrawn

• I had the mistaken belief that deleting these categories was sort of routine, and nominated based on the recent deletion of very similar categories. Apparently, the act of nominating the category for deletion is far more disruptive and divisive than the category itself. I would have no issue if it were renamed to something that had previously been deleted, because it seems like there is no firm consensus on the topic of user categories. I didn't cherry pick the Gayass Wikipedians category intentionally... Since I had the LGBT project talk page watchlisted, I just happen to notice when it was created as sort of a joke. Clearly this has generated significant ill-will in the community, which was not at all my intent. I have withdrawn the nomination of the category for deletion. ^Avruchtalk 15:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to thank Avruch for withdrawing the nomination, I think this shews a real commitment to listening to the community and acting in the best interests of Wikipedia. DuncanHill (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Complaint withdrawn

Since I left Wikipedia, Avruch has made obviously sincere attempts to explain that he did not intend prejudice, and he's made several gestures of reconciliation, of which withdrawing the deletion nomination was only one. There may have been mutual misunderstanding, but it's more important that there clearly was no malice, as there was none on my part either. I accept his explanations, I thank him for his gestures, I bear him no ill will, and I apologize for whatever degree I was the cause of our misunderstanding.

My frustration with Wikipedia has therefore cooled down to just below the boiling point and I am returning.

I would like to very sincerely thank several kind people who spoke decently about gays during the discussion. William P. Coleman (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you're back to stay. Hope to collaborate with you on future projects, нмŵוτнτ 18:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would either William or Avruch please expand a little on the "several gestures of reconciliation" mentioned above? I have been looking around at this issue, and am willing to accept that Avruch did not anticipate his action would be controversial, but I am still concerned about much of what I have read. That there is homophobia on WP is hard to deny - one only needs to glance up at User:HalfShadow's comment above for an illustration. And yet, Avruch's response has been a defence of himself coupled with comments like "Its [sic] unfortunate that a new editor was unable to find a role for himself in this community; it seems as if he is unable to embrace the essence of NPOV. Some people find it impossible to check their personal opinions at the door." Rather than recognising that homophobia is objectionable (whatever the intent of his actions), Avruch appears to suggest that double standards and bias are something that anyone identifying as Queer simply needs to accept - which is rougly why William left in the first place. I agree that the withdrawal of the nomination was a positive step, but am concerned that the motivation was to remove controversy over a "disruptive and divisive" category (as Avruch put it), rather than in recognition that there is a genuine issue of bias here. I am also puzzled that Avruch has made few edits in the LGBT area (as he notes on the project talk page), but had it watchlisted. Now, of course, he has the right to watch (or edit) any WP page, and it is not my intention to attack here. I just don't want to go away from this discussion without trying to understand what gestures William has seen, and I would much prefer to be able to move on feeling as comfortable about Avruch as William apparently is now. Jay*Jay (talk) 01:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Sometimes its better to let an issue settle on its own, but apparently that is not to be in this case. My comments regarding Coleman were made when I was pretty upset at the imputation of homophobic or anti-gay motives to my nomination and other actions. My comments were intemperate, but I submit that I was pretty upset at the time. I would echo what I said on his talkpage and here: that it would be unfortunate if Coleman were to be unable to find a role for himself here that he finds acceptable. I'm not sure that active advocacy is an easy role to fill, as it finds somewhat less sympathy than perhaps it deserves in a community focused on public content. At no point did I argue that "Double standards and bias" are something that anyone should accept. I have the LGBT project talk page watchlisted because I asked a question on it about whether Matt Sanchez (Matt Sanchez) should be considered as within the LGBT-scope. I don't think he identifies as LGBT, so I wasn't sure if former gay pornographic performers would be considered LGBT.

• Avruch, I agree that sometimes leaving well alone is the best approach, and I did consider not saying anything - but then decided that that would be unfair to you, as it would mean my (and possibly others) leaving with an impression that may not be warranted. I wanted to understand, and to give you the chance to respond.
• I understand why you were upset, and recognise that we all act on emotion at times. Indeed, my actions here may well be equally criticised on such a basis. I recall an incident years ago where I was accused of making a homophobic remark, and I still regret that I have never had the chance to apologise for the offence that I caused - even though it arose from a misinterpretation of my comment. My anger at the accusation prevented my seeing how my comment could be seen from his perspective until later, and I've never had the chance to address his (likely still) negative impression. I am impressed with your actions in seeking your roommate's opinion, which has left you able to do something to address the situation. William has accepted your explanation (which is great for both of you), but I guess this serves to illustrate that he was not the only one aggrieved. I would encourage you to look at this as an opportunity for reflection on the potential for misinterpretation in written communication when emotions are raised. For example, I saw your comment that he should "check his opinions at the door" as a reference to opinions like homophobia is never acceptable, especially in light of the homophobic comments made elsewhere in this discussion and your description of the category in question as "diisruptive and divisive" - hence my "double standards and bias" comment. Hopefully, this is not what you meant, and on reflection I see that you may have been in fact referring back to the importance of NPOV.
• As regards inclusion of the page Matt Sanchez in the LGBT project, I now recall that question being raised, and that makes your watchlisting completely understandable. On that point, I think it should be so included, although I agree that he does not identify as LGBT. The content of the page clearly does have relevance to the LGBT project. FYI, whatever Matt Sanchez's self-identification may be, there are a lot of people in the LGBT community who would view him as a gay or bi based on his actions no matter what he states publicly - and many would also suggest he has internalised homophobia issues. Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the various positions on Matt, I can't see any reason to not include his page as part of the LGBT project. Jay*Jay (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• As far as withdrawing the nomination - the disruptive and divisive nature of the debate, coupled with the clear fact that consensus on the larger issue has not been achieved, was wholly my reason for withdrawing the nom. At first I was surprised that it was viewed as an attack on WP LGBT editors, but after it blew up a bit I discussed it with my roommate (who is quite emphatically lesbian) and found that from her perspective it was quite a reasonable response. I didn't withdraw it as an attempt to counteract systemic bias, per se, and I counted it unnecessary to argue from my decidedly inexpert opinion over the presence and effect of such bias. It is clear that the issue of categories and userboxes (and etc. other usage of userspace) is something that has to be decided as a single question of purpose. It is exceedingly difficult to resolve the problem case by case, because each separate nomination is seen as an attack on a particular person or group of people - whether it was intended to be or not. I regret that it happened in this case, and you can be sure that I will exercise far more care in any future user category or userbox deletion nominations. ^Avruchtalk 02:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree that the issue is best dealt with at a meta-level with a discussion of all user categories. In retrospect, it might have been much better to use the need for a global discussion and conclusion, rather than a case-by-case approach, as the rationale for the closure here [1]. I certainly was concerned that your use of "controversial and divisive" to describe the category reflected an underlying anti-queer perspective, which is partly why I am now here. FWIW, Avruch, I now think that the context surrounding all of this had led me to an inaccurate perception of you, and so engaging in this dialog has been worthwhile (at least from my perspective). Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update

When I posted the above, I was under a misimpression. The last time I'd seen the Gayass Wikipedians category, Avruchtalk had withdrawn his deletion nomination and closed the discussion. I was about to go back to the LGBT group and suggest that we rename the category to "LGBT" or "Queer" or something less inflammatory and much more inclusive to the whole LGBT community. Now I find that someone else reopened it and reclosed it and the category has now been deleted. Furthermore, Wikipedia is so legalistic that I just spend an hour trying to figure out what happened so I could complain in a rational way. So far, I haven't been able to do that.

For Wikipedia at this stage in the discussion to turn around and make a point of denying the LGBT a category (to be suitably renamed) is an unbelievably blatant insult and an outrage.

My question now is how -- without becoming a Wikilawyer and spending my whole life on the legalities -- could I and the rest or the GLBT community secure a category with a reasonable name of our own choosing, and then know that it would stay that way for at least a while?

I still appreciate Avruchtalk's efforts at reconciliation, and I still appreciate those others who've tried to help, but my astonishment with Wikipedia in general is boundless. William P. Coleman (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. There is a DRV for "Queer Wikipedians" that has a good chance of succeeding. ^Avruchtalk 20:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The DRV can be found at Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2008_January_21#Category:Queer_Wikipedians. DuncanHill (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of the things that I find troubling about the current culture of admins and blocking, is the propensity to indefinite block too swiftly. There are some cases where indefinite blocking is definitely required, but there are other cases involving contentious articles and groups of articles, or an editor who is disrupting content but can contribute something, rather than just behaving badly, where I think a different approach would work better. Have a look at this from one of the arbitration pages:

"Editors who are disruptive, including but not limited to edit warring, making uncivil remarks and personal attacks, and filing vexatious complaints, may be banned from the affected pages and/or placed on one revert-per-week limitation, at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. Editors who violate page bans or revert limitations may be blocked for up to one week per violation, with the maximum block increasing to one year after the fifth violation."

This may look like excessive bureaucracy, but I think it is a better system than trying to have community discussions on contentious bans. It would be simple to ask the uninvolved admins to record this in the logs, but my main point is that this is a far better way to handle things than the current "indefinite ban if enough admins don't have the patience to give you another chance". It doesn't have to be exactly like that proposal above, but is there any chance that those admins wanting to have indefinite blocking as the second or third option in their armoury would consider using escalating blocks instead? Carcharoth (talk) 16:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we probably jump to indef too quickly in many cases, but I don't think slowly escalating blocks are the answer. If someone gets warned and/or blocked for something, we assume good faith that they weren't familiar with our rules. They do it a second time and get blocked, we might still assume good faith, they do it again and I think most people would stop assuming good faith. On a collaborative project, users who constantly piss off other people are a major impediment to a decent work environment. If someone doesn't learn after a couple incidents that things like POV-pushing and incivility are wrong, I see no reason to delay the almost-inevitable and let good users suffer as a result. A topic ban might help some cases, but not always. A topic ban for an SPA is pretty much the same as a regular ban, except it needs people policing the user as we have no technical method to enforce a topic ban. Mr.Z-man 19:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As bears repeating, indefinite does not mean infinite. If the User wants to come back, all they need to do is to explain on their Talk page or in an email to an admin, that they realize that their previous behavior is wrong, and vow to change their modus operandi. Corvus cornix_talk 23:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that is that indefinite blocks invariably drive people away rather than promoting reform. People grow up, mature and change, and there is no reason why someone 2-3 years later should be forced to start a new account, or grovel to get their old account unblocked, because of previous indiscretions. Maybe the terminology needs to change? People (especially new users) do interpret indefinite as permanent (and a months-long block is not set in stone either - people can appeal for that to be shortened). Nice as the ideal is, simply saying "fill in this form saying what you did wrong and say you will be nice and we will unblock" is not a good way to get genuine reform happening, and it sets admins up as judges of past behaviour. The alternative of "I've unblocked you, be nice or you will be reblocked" is in some ways better, and shouldn't be denied because some people prefer the other method. Requiring people, on their first or second offence, to write a lengthy essay explaining how they are now a model Wikipedian, is unrealistic. Improvement and reform can only come with experience, and no-one gets that while they are blocked. Carcharoth (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slowly escalating blocks implies that the block is being used as a punishment. "This is the third time you broke the rules, your punishment is now a 1 month block". Blocks are NOT PUNISHMENT. While arbcom rulings or community sanctions carry the weight of punishments, and can be enforced by blocks, blocks in and of themselves should not be handled this way, IMHO. If the blocking admin believes that the user needs to be stopped immediately, but can be "talked down" from problematic edits and can be counseled, then anything more than a day or two is just vindictive punishment. If the blocking admin believes that the user shows no signs of ever becoming a productive user, and expects disruption to continue as soon as the block is lifted, then why not make it indefinite; we shouldn't lift a block when we truly believe doing so will cause a disruption. Short blocks get attention and stop ongoing disruption. Indefinite blocks prevent problematic users from continuing to edit. The middle range stuff makes no sense, unless it is something agreed upon as an ArbCom sanction or otherwise, it just makes no sense given the blocking policy. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So why do arbcom limit themselves to one year blocks and propose escalating blocks? The point is that there are cases where the user is (or appears to be) reformed and has productive edits in the past. There are banned users who do appear to have changed and matured, and the system is heavily weighted against them ever getting another chance. Carcharoth (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because ArbCom does hand down punishments, and it is within their jurisdiction to decide the appropriate length of their punishment. Admins don't punish. We use the blocking tool to prevent vandalism and disruption. Either the user being blocked is expected to change or they are not; the mid-range blocks (like 2 weeks) take neither of those positions into account. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure ArbCom are punishing and not preventing? No blocks should be punishing anyone. By your logic, someone banned for a year should be banned permanently or not at all. I think the real reason for ArbCom not applying indefinite blocks is because they recognise the potential for miscarriages of justice, and recognise that people can change (but now I'm just speculating). The point here is that excessive indefinite blocking will eventually disrupt the encyclopedia by causing the number of new contributors to dwindle - it is a question of getting the balance right. By the way, how does what you said apply to community bans and the "if no admin will unblock, a user is de facto considered community banned" (even in the absence of discussion) bit? Carcharoth (talk) 17:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest I was issuing short blocks to "vandalism accounts" at first (you know, AGF), but all (or almost all) the accounts that came back after the block continued to vandalize. An other issue is that these accounts are then autoconfirmed and can start having fun with page move. -- lucasbfr ^talk 10:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not talking about vandalism accounts here, but do be aware of the need to distinguish experimentation and vandalism. Carcharoth (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nvm I was away for a few days and I didn't understand the background story behind this thread until now. -- lucasbfr ^talk 14:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Admins clearly know the difference between a new user fooling around with test edits and someone repeatedly adding "This guy is teh gay" to a biographical article. I fully trust my brother and sister admins to use blocks appropriately in each case, and to know the difference. Wikipedia does not suffer fools long, but we do have a lot of patience for newbies. If you have a specific concern about how a specific block was handled, perhaps it would be a good idea to include difs. Before the most recent post, it was hard to tell, as it seemed Carcharoth was asking for general opinions on blocks, and such opinions were being sought apropros of nothing. However, I reiterate that I inherently trust admins to make good judgements about user behavior, unless clearly they show themselves to be untrustworthy... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You would be surprised how many people experiment by putting "This guy is teh gay" in an article. That's the problem, you see, some people assume that anyone making an edit like that is doing it to get a kick out of it, rather than chosing an inappropriate place and method of experimentation. You used the word "repeated" and that is a key qualifier. What we call vandalism can sometimes just be someone going "hey, is it really possible that anyone can edit this thing? Wow! Yes, I can. Oops, I just got blocked." Now most people recover from a start like that and can go on to be a good, productive editor, which is why we have warnings. A similar learning process is seen for more "advanced" concepts, such as civility and NPOV and so on. Ideally, all editors would be perfect Wikipedians from the start, but that's not the case. People learn as they edit, and the first block on an issue should be seen as a learning experience. You have to have a clear pattern of failing to learn the same lesson, not just "lots of blocks, no more patience needed, indefinite block". Does that begin to make more sense? Carcharoth (talk) 17:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, but once someone has been told "Please stop doing that" and then "We really mean it... stop doing that" and then "Really, you will be blocked if you do it again" and then they are really blocked for 24 hours, and then they come back from the block and make the same edit again, and are blocked for 24 hours again, and then come back and say "Fuck all admins I will do what I want." I inherently trust ALL admins to treat that case differently than someone who makes a joke or test edit a few times, and then says "sorry guys, I was just screwing around. I will be good in the future". And, when an admin says "lots of blocks, no more patience, indefinite block", why do we assume the admin is lazy and has not investigated further. I trust my fellow admins to make good judgement on these issues. Admins don't just look at the number of blocks, they look at the reasons for the blocks, the contribs history, and lots of other factors before asigning an indefinite block. If you have a specific case that needs review, that would help. Otherwise, I will reiterate: Admins know how and when to block indefinitly, and are doing so by and large in a reasonable manner. (edit conflict) --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, a month-long block in the hopeless cases (usually those who would have lost interest anyway if they had been reverted and ignored) will usually result in a dead account that the user doesn't return to. Same effect as an indefinite block. The users that really want to contribute tend to come back after the month is up, and some of those change and improve. Carcharoth (talk) 17:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, an indef blocked user can use the unblock template to explain their case. A good mea culpa gets unblocked most of the time. A determined vandal can wait out the month and be a pain in the ass again when it expires. As I said before, if the blocking admin feels in their heart that the user is not going to be a vandal anymore, anything more than a day or two is eggregious. If the admin believes the vandal has no interest in reforming, what is the point in letting them vandalise every two weeks or every month. If you really believe that they will vandalize as soon as the block expires, why let it expire? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Though there are cases where an admin does feel in their heart that someone could contribute, but other admins are just as adamant that the user should remain blocked indefinitely. Those are the difficult cases. Carcharoth (talk) 17:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) As for examples, it would help if it was possible to list indefinite blocks separately from other blocks. That way we really could see if the proportion of indefinite blocks, as compared to other blocks, has increased or decreased over time. Carcharoth (talk) 17:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's actually a good idea. If we are to learn to be better admins, some data may be informative... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe someone will rustle up some stats? Carcharoth (talk) 17:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additional point

I just noticed this point from Redvers:

"And admins are guilty here too, blocking on an AIV report without researching deeply - as I find often as I come back from checking edits, find "good faith but misjudged" all over them and an indef block applied. I used to complain (off-wiki, for the sake of non-drama), until I got a reply containing the words "Mind your own business". So now I don't bother at all. But I don't see how the 'pedia is being improved through all this, I really don't." [2] - User:Redvers (my emphasis)

I'm going to ask him to comment further here. Carcharoth (talk) 12:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi y'all! Yes, this was said in relation to the use of automated editing tools. Frequently - as in at least once every time I clear out AIV (two or three times a week?) - I find this pattern:

1. User:Newbie edits foo, adding "can I reeely edit here?"
2. User:TwinkleAlice reverts, and warns User:Newbie. No welcome message, and uw-vand, not uw-test used.
3. User:Newbie edits bar, changing something minor ("Mr" to "mister", say) but making the article a bit worse.
4. User:TwinkleBob reverts, and warns uw-vand2.
5. User:Newbie edits foobar, reordering a sentence and making some good, some bad changes.
6. User:TwinkleCharles reverts, and, perhaps seeing the two warnings, warns with BV
7. User:TwinkleCharles places a report on AIV
8. User:Admin blocks User:Newbie indef.

User:Newbie's total career on Wikipedia: under 10 minutes.

There are variants on this, including shortcircuiting at point 4, with TwinkleBob BV-ing, reporting to AIV and User:Admin indeffing all within seconds.

Some of this problem is due to newer admins having come up through the Wikipedia-as-a-roleplaying-game route and still playing the game. Some of this is because admins AGF of the person reporting the "vandal" - especially when AIV is backlogged, it's easier to assume that the reporter is right, double check the last edit and that there's a BV warning, not check the time and block indef.

Now, I don't argue with blocking indef - it should exist, it should be used, it is much more often used correctly than it is used incorrectly. My beef is with it being used for non-blatant vandalism - what we used to call "testing", and the incorrect identification of tests by editors using automated tools. That we as admins are facilitating these bad warnings by blocking on little or no evidence is a symptom of a problem, not a problem in itself. ➔ REDVEЯS with my innocent hand on my heart 13:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good points. Here are a couple reports I just checked out at WP:AIV:

68.2.156.53 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) - apparently, this user's offenses include replacing "horn" with "French horn". Is that vandalism? No, that's just someone who's perhaps unfamiliar with Wikipedia terminology or the discussions that have been done regarding the accepted terminology of a horn (instrument). Content disputes are not vandalism.

Canccono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - created an article named "If u know me good for ur face u butt head and BTW KILL (someone's name omitted)", vandalized Thyroid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and other edits seem to indicate a vandal-only account. I was considering a block for being a vandal-only account, but he hadn't been properly warned, so AndonicO (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) gave the correct warning.

I think Redvers is correct in that people often give quick warnings with Twinkle and make quick reports to WP:AIV without fully investigating the situation. Maybe some of these people are users who really want to become admins, so they hope to increase their chances by calling themselves "vandal fighters". I don't know what it would take to change this culture, though. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 16:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quite disturbed by this as well; I've left notes on dozens of users' talk pages that they should check the times on the last warning, and the last vandalism before reporting, but only a few really follow the advice. Perhaps we need "MOAR", as Gurch puts it. · AndonicO ^Hail! 16:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

all of this is a reason why usually a informal statement saying "enough of this. stop now, or I can and will block you" seems to work well for many types of people playing with WP. I have never had a school-type guy continue after something like that, & I often actually get an apology. DGG (talk) 02:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an interesting (related) point, from editors recently talking on AIV's talk page:

It's been a while since I reported a vandal, and was amazed to see the new info box which apparently indicates a new "soft" stance against vandalism. I now have to spell out exactly what the vandal did to get it taken care of? Things that were once considered vandalism no longer are? My God, COME ON! We editors fight this crap ongoingly, and the best defense we had was swift and decisive action by admins against vandalism. If this is no longer the case, I will have to think very carefully about if I want to continue helping to keep Wikipedia clean and accurate. IP editors who are basically untouchable continually vandalize these articles without any requirement to register. If I had my way, you would have to register to edit to begin with. If my take on this is true, you are going to begin losing a lot of diligent editors as time passes. Many of us already feel like we are at the breaking point.

A small chorus of agreement from other "vandalfighters" follows - "I totally agree with all of the above..." "Yes can common sense please prevail". Now this is Not A Good Thing - editors arguing they shouldn't have to "spell out exactly what the vandal did to get it taken care of". One goes as far to say "I myself am fighting to keep pages free of vandalism but i simply cant do it forever! And as soon as i leave [...] these pages are going to become full of vandalism/false information again".

So "vandal fighters" are threatening to leave unless we (admins) get the same hair-trigger as them. This suggest there are people here who only fight vandals and they're burning out. Would I be incivil if I suggested that these people try something else instead? I don't know what. Perhaps writing an encyclopedia? Is that too crazy? ➔ REDVEЯS with my innocent hand on my heart 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for a third opinion regarding an incident at Talk:Politicization of science where my attempts at civil discussion were classified as WP:SOAP by User:Hrafn and removed [3][4][5][6][7] from the talk page. A third opinion was rendered by User:Vassyana who suggested that the matter of the deleted text be brought before a sysop and that the disagreement about the article's title and content be brought before WP:MEDCAB or WP:RFC. I have lost any desire to edit this article based on the treatment I received from User:Hrafn and User:Athene cunicularia, but I would still like to see an admin weigh in on the issue of the deleted text. Please note that User:Hrafn added the {{notaforum}} after I objected to the removal of the comments. MoodyGroove (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)MoodyGroove[reply]

Even if one's comments may be most appropriate for a forum, it's (in my opinion) absolutely improper and incorrect to remove another's comments from an article's talk page. If you believe one is using an article's talk page as a forum then kindly bring it up on the user's talk page. Removing the comments from the article's talk page is wrong. Bstone (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unless there is real incivility or libelous material, or over the top stuff, user comments on talk page should be left, IMHO. A REAL quick scan of the edits don't look that bad/harmful ect so I would leave, but I didn't dig too deep. This is also after I have had to remove a bunch of stuff from some talk pages so I guess..."It depends" Anyways, --Tom 18:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone, unless restricted by an arb ruling, may participate in the article talk page. Removing comments of others, or changing them is disruption. I gave a final warning. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I direct Rlevse's attention to WP:TALK#Others' comments: "Some examples of appropriately editing others' comments: ... Deleting material not relevant to improving the article (per the above subsection #How to use article talk pages)." I also direct Rlevse's attention to template:notaforum: "This is not a forum for general discussion of [article topic]. Any such messages will be deleted." I would suggest that Rlevse's "final warning" is in error. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What Hrafn says is correct. Our talk pages are not forums for off-topic jabber. Talk pages for Politicization of science and other articles like it (which tend to attract much disinformation, and about which people may hold strange, unreal ideas) tend to attract lots of off-topic discussion. It's not the job of the people keeping up these articles to debunk every crackpot that comes along; if they want to delete what's not related to the article at hand, they are most certainly allowed to do so. Raul654 (talk) 03:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I commented there. See that talk page. Raul, the danger therein re what you're saying is who defines what is off topic and is it really off topic. Unless the issue is getting out of hand, I feel it's better to just leave it there, otherwise you'd likely start another unneeded dispute. The template Hrafn points to is for "large amounts of" discusion. Here, we're talking about one short edit. As for W:TALK, very few edits will qualify for it. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's the same problem we have with everything on this project, and the answer is WP:CONSENSUS. It's usually clear when a lone crackpot is relentlessly on a soapbox, and we should feel free to remove such comments. If other users think the topic is legitimately important to the article, they should certainly feel free to restore the material. Cool Hand Luke 00:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, I find it useful to put such comments under a {{hat}} with the caption "Off-topic discussion about [whatever issue]." Contentious editors are more likely to accept archiving than outright removal, and it spurs the talk page away from feeding the trolls. Cool Hand Luke 00:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to do that in threads involving several editors going off-topic. When the thread involves only one editor I prefer to 'userfy' the thread to the user in question's talkpage, which is fairly standard practice on such pages, and is what I did on this occasion. I only delete outright obvious nonsense and blatant trolling. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be too much to ask for some sysops to review the deleted material and User:Hrafn's demeanor on the talk page to determine if this was a simple case of a well-meaning editor removing the outright nonsense of a troll? MoodyGroove (talk) 14:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)MoodyGroove[reply]

Read more carefully: I "'userf[ied]' the thread to the user in question's talkpage", I did not "delete outright". Therefore I was not inferring that your comments were "the outright nonsense of a troll" (merely that it was an impermissible "general conversation" on the topic of 'the politicisation of science'). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have declined User:The Cyndicate's unblock request per this comment in which he says "This is just horrible and I guess its time it is stopped. I guess you need to hunker down and get ready for legal fight." I have informed him that he can be unblocked if he rescinds the threat of legal action, and will support any admin's unblocking of him upon such condition. - Revolving Bugbear 20:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I used to love/hate people like this when I was a moderator/admin of a sports message board. Assuming he does follow through with it, I really wish I could see his reaction when a laywer tells him that no, his civil rights have not been violated. Resolute 20:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, you're right about that. - Revolving Bugbear 20:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the case has been needlessly escalated. A friendly notification that a) legal threats are strictly prohibited on Wikipedia, and b) such a lawsuit would have had no merit (just like you can't sue a newspaper for refusing to publish an [unsuitable] article you have written), only followed by a block should the user continue with that behaviour, would have been better. (See User talk:Wojowc for how I handle such matters.) Now I am afraid the block must stay, at least for now; the user has not just not withdrawn the legal action, but also threatened to use a bot to revert changes to his text, and proxies to avoid his block. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 21:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The bot threat was also made pre-block, I believe. - Revolving Bugbear 21:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have noticed that. (I probably still wouldn't have immediately blocked him for that, but it makes the block more warranted.) - Mike Rosoft (talk) 21:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the block was a borderline case, as I don't believe the user knew the NLT policy before he made the statement. On the other hand -- and I realize blocking is stressful and frustrating -- his reaction to the notion that he may be unblocked if he redacts the threat is not particularly comforting, and possible evidence post hoc. - Revolving Bugbear 21:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that reporting someone to the authorities is considered a legal threat in WP even though in real life it's not a legal threat. - I've known for a while that this is the case, but it doesn't fit with the stated reason for the NLT policy. Anyone know how this got in there? I've got a disconcerting feeling that this comes from people thinking that WP:NLT is intended as a vindictive "punish people for threatening us" policy, and changing it to conform to that. Moreover, it is not in the written policy itself, and does not interact well with "Withdrawal of legal threat". —Random832 14:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What it actually should say, and I don't know when the language got changed, is that threatening to report someone to the authorities is a legal threat on Wikipedia. That, in my opinion, is consistent with Wikipedia policy. Talking about it on-wiki has to be prohibited to keep it from being used as coercion, but Wikipedia shouldn't take a stance against legitimate police complaints that have nothing to do with WP. - Revolving Bugbear 17:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've protected his talk page now as it appears all he wants to do is make more threats. Nakon 16:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I recall a case a couple months ago where someone was indef-blocked for carrying out such a "threat" (IIRC it was a report to an animal welfare organization, not law enforcement); there doesn't seem to be any valid basis in the principles behind WP:NLT to justify leaving someone blocked after the "threatened" action is out of their hands (and thus can no longer be withdrawn even if they wanted to) unless we decide that we want to be vindictive and punitive about these things. —Random832 18:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er, sorry, I'm bleary eyed as I need to go to bed, but... am I getting this right? No Legal Threats means "don't threaten to go to law, but if you actually do sue then that's all right"? Coz that's very bad reasoning. It isn't punitive nor vindictive to block or leave someone blocked if they do in fact take legal (or similar) action against another user. It's common sense to leave them blocked/block them whilst a legal action is taking place or whilst a report to "a higher authority" is underway. And beyond, whatever the conclusion. NLT is not just designed to prevent legal threats, it's designed to say that we, as a community, don't allow for threats or actions to influence us. If you make a threat and carry it out then you remain blocked, forever, for the good of the community because We Don't Do That. What if it was a murder that was threatened? Do we say, oh, since the other person is dead, you can come back, as you're not threatening it any more? Please tell me that's not what you're saying? ➔ REDVEЯS with my innocent hand on my heart 23:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll just point out that it is a common practice when an editor indicates that they are contemplating suicide or real-life harm to other people for Wikipedians to notify the relevant authorities; there are frequent discussions about this on AN and AN/I, particularly trying to locate a trusted editor in the relevant geographic region. The concept of notifying authorities when there is a perceived real-world threat is important and valid; failure to do so could be quite harmful to the project and the community as a whole. This concept does not apply in the case of the threats posed by The Cyndicate; however, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Risker (talk) 00:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redvers, I think its just a common business practice to not discourage people from seeking legal action. Then they'd argue they were coerced into not exercising their legal rights/letting the other party abuse their rights. So yea, the wording, don't threaten to sue us cause we'll block you, but if you do sue, we won't is awkward, but at least from a US view, seems normal.

I'm still trying to figure out how anything this user did was related to a disability. I don't see anything in the articles he edited to relate to disabilities or medical conditions. Also, do IPs even have monobooks in which to run scripts or would he have to re-register (and therefore be easy to ID) to run the reverting script he mentions? And where is there any debate on wikipedia of it being public or private, thats a new one to me! MBisanz ^talk 00:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Darn. I wanted to ask him how or why he thinks the Americans with Disabilities Act would even apply, since it is very obvious that he could not be discriminated against bast on disability, since we could not possibly know. Ahh, well. Whichever of you admins who has a financial stake in this place are sure gonna regret it come April Fools Day...  ;) Resolute 00:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

I’ve had a general cleanup in the article Makara Jyothi and asked for third opinion about removing all three tags placed. I listed it in RFCreli list also. Before doing it, asked another admin’s opinion also. I would have removed all tags as no consensus formed yet after a massive cleanups made. However, since it is a disputed article, administrator’s intervention is imperative in this case. Until now, no action taken yet. Please verify the current article and remove (if ok) all tags placed. --Avinesh Jose  T  08:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is an appropriate place to post this, but I thought editors here might want to know about this AfD, because it is an important issue for Wikipedia and would benefit from the clearest possible result, considering the controversial history of the topic and the other articles related to this one.

This is a neutral request for comments at the Afd for Adult-child sex

My intention is not canvassing. I'm not the nominator of the AfD and I'm not posting this to find others to agree with my position in the debate. More editors will be better for the results, whichever way it goes.

The AfD will be closing very soon I think -- it's page is here:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adult-child sex (2nd nomination)

It seems like the best thing for Wikipedia would be for more editors to enter comments at the AfD, so that whatever is decided, it is done with wide participation, so it can be better seen as a community consensus.

Thanks. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 09:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On how many boards have you posted a notice about this? I seem to recall seeing about a half dozen a few days ago... Pairadox (talk) 12:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm....seems a little contradictory, if you ask me:

This is a neutral request for comments at the Afd for Adult-child sex

My intention is not canvassing. I'm not the nominator of the AfD and I'm not posting this to find others to agree with my position in the debate. More editors will be better for the results, whichever way it goes.

I'm tempted to clain DUCK on this one!  :)

That friendly alien from the Vorlon Home World, previously known as Kosh —Preceding comment was added at 16:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would appreciate some admin eyes on a disputed CSD case. It pertains to this page: User:CltFn/Winn doom, which is a recreation of an article deleted by consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prophet of Doom. I placed {{db-repost}}, but that has been disputed. Does G4 apply? Regards. ITAQALLAH 12:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mmm, I agree with User:Matt57 here, G4 is not applicable to content that has been userfied, as long as it is the user's intent to improve the article. You might want to ask User:CltFn if he still intends to work on it. -- lucasbfr ^talk 12:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is probably not, he has just been indef-blocked following a discussion on AN/I. ITAQALLAH 12:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ow... gonna delete then :D (don't hesitate to undelete if the user is unblocked) -- lucasbfr ^talk 14:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Not sure if this is right place to report this but I am suspecting that User:Bardeep3 may be a sockpuppet of User:Bardeep an indef-blocked user, based on the name. Currently User:Bardeep3 has vandalized various administrator's user pages in addition he seems to be being disruptive on his talk page (see [8] (warning 800K). Thanks VivioFateFan ^{(Talk, Sandbox)} 13:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, user already blocked. VivioFateFan ^{(Talk, Sandbox)} 13:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• (See Archive118 Please) This guy comes back again, he uses ip 172.137.237.65 to add information of a fake move Tom & Jerry: The Great Beginning into Barney Bear, thanks for giving a hand for this.123.193.12.44 (talk) 15:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – pointed out proper venue --barneca (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I'd like to change name to Rickcar witch is the same name I use at my Swedish account. V*M*D 17:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They can take care of you over at WP:RENAME. This requires a bureaucrat, so no admin attention is needed. --barneca (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone close some more debates in Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 January 8? They started two weeks ago. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I got a few of them. The problem with most is the exact same issue: everyone says delete, but one editor says that the page documents a page move. нмŵוτнτ 20:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. As Rossami said: "as long as the target page is kept, the redirect should be kept to document the pagemove" - I agree. So why did you close as delete? Would have been better to nominate the target article (Earl Merkel) at AfD. All the redirects would then have been hoovered up by that redirect cleanup bot. Carcharoth (talk) 05:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

At Adolf Hitler, we seem to be having a problem, first noticed by an anon this morning here. When logged in, the article appears normally as this, however, when not logged in, it appears as the previous, vandalized version. What can be done to fix this problem, and where is the best place to seek assistance? Thanks. Parsecboy (talk) 18:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that's really weird. Jackaranga (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tried a WP:PURGE, tell me if it's fixed. -- lucasbfr ^talk 18:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tried reverting to an earlier revision, and now even when I'm logged out it is OK, even though my edit didn't show up in the history ! Very strange. Jackaranga (talk) 18:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh it must have been the above, that fixed it ^^. Jackaranga (talk) 18:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. Everything seems to be working fine now. Parsecboy (talk) 18:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something strange going on here. I suspect a sockpuppet. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Blocked for harassment (see hidden comment posted on a talk page by the user), and as a suspected sockpuppet account (perhaps of Its Pytch.. Hon based on user page layout). If my reasoning is not sufficient, a checkuser request can be made. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Someone just moved {{US-army-bio-stub}} to Aubrey S. Newman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) which leaves a number of articles transcluding the above article. Could someone with pagemove privileges sort this out?--69.118.143.107 (talk) 19:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Doing... Woody (talk) 19:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Future requests can go to Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen if not urgent. Thanks. Woody (talk) 19:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

There seems to be a large snowdrift building up at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 January 21#Polish counties templates of WP:CSD#G6 candidates, which could be uncontroversially resolved by any idle admin. Happy‑melon 21:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consider me an idle admin. (Actually, I should be working, but I'm not really motivated this afternoon.) I closed the discussion and deleted the templates. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 22:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nominations are open for the Wikipedia:Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 00:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wish to gather some third opinions on how this AfD's should be closed. The deletion policy did not state anything about deletion of articles for content disputes nor NPOV issues as far as I am concerned, so I'm tempted to close this AfD as invalid or no consensus. However, there is a clear consensus towards the deletion of the article, despite the fact that it goes against the policy. Personally I think that this AfD should be closed as "no consensus" because the deletion policy did not state anything about deletions of articles from POV issues, and it states clearly that If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion. I would appreciate if any third-party would like to comment on the AfD itself. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 02:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those wishing to delete the article seem to be arguing that it's a POV fork of Franco-Mongol alliance. POV forking or other content forking to get around consensus seems like a valid reason to delete an article. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should avoid closing this because you have come here for advice, and this creates an appearance that you lack confidence in the decision, and that you are subject to outside influence, when you really should stick to what's in the discussion. Let another administrator take care of this. Jehochman ^Talk 03:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks, this case has issues within it on editor behaviour which go past the original brief and may affect other areas of wikipedia. I have thrown up a suggestion here in the workshop which would have broader implications and I encourage people to read (if you can't get the context have a browse through the rest of it if you have time). cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, take a look. The basic question is "How much fancruft should Wikipedia have?" The big problem used to be band articles, but standards seem to have been established there. The issue with bands was "are they notable?" The issue with TV is "how much detail is too much?", which is a tough concept to define, although WP:FICT tries. --John Nagle (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would be a WP:COI if I performed the WP:SNOW at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas Wilcher, but it is getting might blustery.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 07:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking the discussion should go for a little while longer. It might actually spur some discussion about the notability of athletes' biographies. If the nominator changes his mind later, or if there's a slew of "keep" votes after another day and no "delete" votes, then the snowball clause would be appropriate. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 16:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Rogue Penguin is refusing to allow an addition to the article Shinigami (Death Note) . The addition deals with the thought that the mysterious Shinigami that appears in the Death Note director's cut special could be Light Yagami. The modification I have been attempting to make is one stating that there is speculation that the Shinigami may be Light Yagami. This does not imply that the Shinigami IS Light, it merely states that there are those who think it that he is, or may, be Light.

The statement that there are those who think the Shinigami to be Light is a FACT. There are many arguments over whether or not he may be, but the arguments ARE existent and should not be ignored. This can be seen in the past modifications of the article and in a few outside sources as well:

[9]

[10]

[11]

The Rogue Penguin has decided to ignore this fact stating: "it would be unsourced speculation"

Speculation is a theory that is not (or very lightly) supported by evidence. Siting speculation with a 'credible source' would be almost impossible as the entire idea of speculation is that it is not credible.

The fact is, many people THINK that the Shinigami is (or may) be Light. The fact that it is a thought that is shared by a generally wide community would be reason enough to include it in the article while making sure to state that it is only speculation so as to let the reader know that there are people who believe it to be true, and it adds another way of looking at the ending scene which generates healthy discussion (as can be seen in the outside links above).

To ignore an idea out of arrogance is foolish.

Bokugakira (talk) 08:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, he is following policy, WP:V in particular. - Caribbean~H.Q. 08:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd specify to undue weight. I don't find it relevant what three or thirty bloggers, posters, or videographers think unless they happen to be "people you should listen to", for example experts in that area. Random opinions don't add to the content imho.Wjhonson (talk) 09:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would a mention of the quote (using the source [12] ) be acceptable if it carried no opinion? Then it would just be additional information, no speculation involved.

Bokugakira (talk) 21:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear plausible that TV.com is a reliable source for a synopsis of an episode. I am not myself familiar with that site. The main question to ask is, are these synopsis writen by the staff at tv.com, or are they submitted by any member of the general public. The fact that a page happens to allow additional forum comments isn't relevant, imho, to what other content the page may contain. Many reliable source bloggers allow comments and yet they are experts in their fields and may be cited as such. If you and the other editors have further comments, it would be judicious to take them to either the Talk page at verifiability or the reliable sources noticeboard. Thanks, and have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TV.com show info is almost entirely user-submitted. It's not a reliable source. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 22:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article of Islam in India should be block because Contributions/99.237.253.131 (or aka HinduMuslim and Vikash83) has always attacked my in my Talk Page because I've only added sources of Indian Gov., CIA, U.S. Department of States, etc...all were showed the common estimates of Muslim population in India as 148 million or 13.4% (please look at its history [13] and here is his attacks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Angelo_De_La_Paz#Islam_in_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Angelo_De_La_Paz#India_holding_2nd_Largest_Muslim_population_in_World

And he is staring to vandalize some Chinese or Buddhist related article such as Religion in China, List of religious populations,History of Islam in China, Islam in China.

Thank you so much!

Angelo De La Paz (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've blocked the IP as noted at User talk:99.237.253.131, but will not block the other users immediately, without more evidence. Anyone? Bearian (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Could somebody remove the {{helpme}} template from this page, it's protected and the help-me keeps popping up on IRC. The unblock template is already in place there, helpme is not needed. Thanks! --omtay38 17:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done already, nvmd. :-P --omtay38 17:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Appletrees (talk · contribs) has removed my {{3RR}} warning from User talk:75.7.8.176, accusing me of "deliberate factual errors" [14].

For the record, the warned user 75.7.8.176 (talk · contribs) reverted 2 times in the last 24 hours in Sea of Japan, and 3 times in the last 48 hours (+ 2 min.), as follows...

• 15:56, 21 January 2008 (75.7.8.176) — added "or East Sea"
• 03:23, 23 January 2008 (75.7.8.176) — added "(East Sea)"
• 15:58, 23 January 2008 (75.7.8.176) — added "(East Sea)", etc.

Appletrees is an involved party in the revert wars, as his following edit seems to show...

• 19:17, 18 January 2008 (Appletrees) — added "and is often refered to as East Sea", etc.

Please verify if my warning to the anon. user was warranted, and restore the warning if appropriate. I appoligize in advance if I was in error. Thank you very much.--Endroit (talk) 18:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Appletress has no right to remove warnings from other people's pages. If the IP address in question contests the warning you have given, let them do it. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Appletrees informed of this topic. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I knew it you would do this kind of thing without notifying me per your contribution history. Well, the warning is not warranted because you, Endroit falsely accused the anon who reverted 3 times within 48hours is not in danger of the 3rr violation. The policy clearly is effective in 24 hours not 48 hours. That is not a good-faith edit and your warning is regarded as an offensive insult for the anon. You're the main involved party on edit warring with the other party. You can't accuse anyone by your "own" standard.

Besides, you label some user, with sockpuppetry before making an official file. You're not an authority so please stop the disruptive behaviors. --Appletrees (talk) 19:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now that he mentioned it, Appletrees also removed a {{sockpuppet}} tag [15] from Water Bear 87 (talk · contribs). I'd appreciate if the admins review that case as well. After that incident, I requested RFCU here.--Endroit (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made the report below on your disruptive accusation before making an official file. You cann't accuse anyone without any report or evidence. You're the one playing the false rule. --Appletrees (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Appletrees, being the good Wikilawyer that he is, should also note that WP:3RR states clearly "The motivation for the three-revert rule is to prevent edit warring. In this spirit the rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique. Rather, the rule is an "electric fence".[1] Editors may still be blocked even if they have made three or fewer reverts in a 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive." Also, it should be noted for Appletrees that Endroit did not initiate any block of the IP inquestion, he left a warning, which needs to be left so that the IP user in question has the opportunity to read it. Finally, the major problem is that it is not Appletree's right to remove comments made by one user to third user. If the user in question has a problem, they can raise their own objections. Appletrees should not be removing or altering discussions between two other people that do not concern him/her. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the 3RR waring is issued mainly for precaution in danger of violating impending 3RR. You, administrator of course, know well about the wiki rules than me. However, I've seen his parade of accusing somebody without proof but with his strong belief, so the warning sign doesn't seem to be appropriate and be from good faith. As far as I've known, Endroit is not a good wikilaywer because he take an important role in the center of nationalistic edit warrings between Japan and Korea. If he really wanted to warn him for possible edit conflicts, he could've talked to him in a civil way not with the warning. It is so funny, he accused me of sending "bogus sign" as removed the warning sign and my comment.

Rv bogus warning by an involved party in the revert wars[16]

If he is right on sending the 3RR warning to the editor, he might have not deleted my comment and warnings. Or he is also a main involved party, so his warning is not warranted or because he is the most notable edit warrior on the article. --Appletrees (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No one appears to have violated the 3RR rule here, and everyone appears to know about it, so you can cease arguing about whether or not a warning was useful or not. Since this article includes the word "Japan" in the title, I reckon this is some more asinine Korean/Japanese/Chinese nationalistic edit warring. Since there's clearly a dispute, I've protected the article until you all can decide whether or not it should be called the "Sea of Japan", "East Sea", "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sea", "Chinese Sea Near Korea", "International Sea with No Nationalistic Affiliation (Especially not Japanese)", or whatever you end up deciding. --Haemo (talk) 20:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POV pushing and false accusation by User:Endroit

I should've reported his disruptive POV earlier but I didn't. Because I believe that before making a report, trying to converse with editors on the other party is way better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appletrees (talk • contribs) 19:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sea of Japan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Endroit's revert warring with the other party.

• 14:05, 4 January 2008 by Endroit
• 1st revert 11:38, 10 January 2008 by Endroit
• 2nd revert 12:02, 10 January 2008 by Endroit
• 3rd revert14:24, 10 January 2008 by Endroit

• 12:34, 16 January 2008 by Endroit
• 12:59, 17 January 2008 by Endroit

• 14:07, 18 January 2008 by Endroit
• 17:00, 19 January 2008 by Endroit

• 11:25, 23 January 2008 by Endroit

How many revert warring have you ever made since 2008? 5 cases!!! And you totally reverted 10 times as you have pushed your POV to the other party. I reverted one time in partial of your edit which is a compromised version. Besides, I suggested twice that we can make a new poll for the matter due to this Wikipedia:tendentious editing.

Endroit, you are the one to get the 3RR warning per this evidence. Besides, as I said before on your talk page, you're violating WP:OWN. You can't own the article and force to follow your "own" rule if there occurs a conflict of interest. You didn't even notify me to this wrong report.

User:DrinkNaval (edit | [[Talk:User:DrinkNaval|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) User:Water Bear 87 (edit | [[Talk:User:Water Bear 87|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• 13:21, 17 January 2008
• 13:22, 17 January 2008

Per your false accusation without any proof or official report to SSP and RFCU on two editors who disagree with your opinion is just disruptive. As I've watched your behaviors, this accusation is out of line. After my suggestion[17], you made a RFCU file.[18] But you even included me in your report without making differs but just from your belief. You should look yourself before making another mistake --Appletrees (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All my reverts this year in Sea of Japan were against SPA's and anon's, except the one against Appletrees. And ALL those reverts were against undiscussed edits. There were no rules broken.--Endroit (talk) 19:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is just what you or your party are thinking. You haven't suggested to the other party to engage in the discussion before I reverted your edit in partial one time. The naming convention was set two and half years ago, and is not set on stone. That's why many editors have reverted what they want. Along with them, you also continuously just reverted!!!. You can't own the article at all and accused somebody unless they violated distinctive disruptions or vandalism. Your accusation of sockepuppetry on the two editors is just disruptive. --Appletrees (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I recently started a discussion at Talk:Sea of Japan#"often refered to as East Sea". All parties are welcome to comment there. Appletrees' party has repeatedly tried to insert the phrase "often refered to as East Sea", and that was the reason I initiated the discussion.--Endroit (talk) 20:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That was after my suggestion for a new poll at the edit summary, so I can say I'm the one who suggested the discussion. Didn't I answer you about your unilateral 'fixing' on your talk page and the article page? Your party is not showing either except you. --Appletrees (talk) 20:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See my comment above. These tit-for-tat "reports" to WP:ANI are totally unproductive. There appears to be no need for admin intervention here, beyond the protection. --Haemo (talk) 20:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the this tit-for-tat reports but I feel annoyed at his describe as him as a victim. "We" will of course discuss the matter at the talk page.--Appletrees (talk) 20:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't be surprised if Appletrees was User:Appleby reincarnated. The pattern of editing and the articles edited are uncannily similar. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not surprised at your rude defamation because you're the main one of the party. You have to apology to me due to your public defamation after User:Endroit]'s accusation on my possible sockpuppetry RFCU comes out. --Appletrees (talk) 16:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – User left wikipedia, usertalk resoted

Just a post to say that Rudget deleted his own userpage and usertalkpage today. We've lost a really good , no, extremely talented, editor and new admin and I'm very sorry to see him go. No need to go into the why's and why not's, I not trying to open this up again because it's already been discussed. Just a sad day for Wikipedia that's all. Keeper | 76 19:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A sad day. Just curious- I know we have a right to vanish, but are admins allowed to delete their own user and talk pages? Bstone (talk) 19:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why are we losing so many admins? Whenever I get tired of dealing with stuff, I just take a step away, but always come back... hrm. :\ EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At the rate admins are added, we're going to have drop-off as well. It's a natural product of the expansion. Many admins who vanish, reappear later as themselves, or under a new name.Wjhonson (talk) 20:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People should not generally delete user talk pages, no. But it's not the worst thing that could happen, either. As long as it gets restored whenever he comes back, no real harm done. Friday (talk) 20:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just del, but also prot, no history. The google cache is still present however.Wjhonson (talk) 20:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User talk pages are deleted when people invoke the right to vanish. J Milburn (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And if the user does that him/her self, doesn't that mean we assume they want to vanish, as Rudget has clearly stated prior to deleting his own pages? Sorry Rudget, I honestly didn't mean to draw this much attention to you. I really hope you come back. Keeper | 76 21:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it normal to protect the pages as well? Wjhonson (talk) 22:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was protected prior to the deletion--Hu12 (talk) 22:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't it decided when RickK deleted his Talk page, that it's okay to delete User pages, but not Talk pages? Corvus cornix_talk 00:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Admins's talk page usually contain discussion relevant to other editors, and to articles. They should not ordinarily be deleted. Blanked, maybe, but not deleted. DGG (talk) 02:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but at the same time i feel we should respect Rudgets privacy, and request to vanish. Tiptoety ^talk 05:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the best thing is to undelete and blank. Corvus cornix_talk 05:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Rudget was a great editor (and person), so I trust in his reasoning for leaving. Not sure about the blanking though. Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP!☺} 05:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rudget seems to be back and making very few edits [19], as such i think that his usertalk page needs to be restored. Tiptoety ^talk 19:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would call that "tying up loose ends". - Revolving Bugbear 19:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just the same, i think it would be best to resotre and blank. Tiptoety ^talk 19:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, looks like Rudget restored it, blanked it and redirected it to his userpage. Tiptoety ^talk 19:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I restored it, it says retired on it now. I agree that even though he is making very few edits, he is making edits. His talk page should be there with a "Retired" message to avert people's eyes and type-fingers instead of the mysterious looking redlink. Keeper | 76 19:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent>And now this edit from Rudget. Cheers to you my friend, best of luck and all that. Still hope you come back (as Rudget or not - there's a good person behind that pseudonym...) Keeper | 76 19:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Farwell my friend. *And with that the curtian drops* and i mark this thread with {{resolved}}. Tiptoety ^talk 19:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I really need some good advice here from experienced users. A prolific POV-pusher has made a move from Wikipedia to WikiNews and there do not appear to be mechanisms in place there to check him. I am referring to Cirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Cirt runs an incredible 5000+ edits per month with the main effect of his efforts being to bring articles critical of (primarily) Scientology to featured and front page status. And you know what, I have no objection to that. Wikipedia is a community and featured articles are the most scrutinized of all and I am comfortable with the community holding him in check so if he can make a Scientology-critical piece into a featured article then more power to him. Of course in areas that are not scrutinized he has more "freedom of expression" as in the article on Bowfinger where the only "Theme", according to Cirt was that Scientology is a cult, see this. He expanded it a bit after I pulled his little piece though it is still unduly weighted. Or perhaps Curt's recent spat of AfDing and prodding Scientology-series articles that are, IDK, not sufficiently critical? I am not going to play around with words here, I respect this community too much. I, for one, am 100% certain that Cirt is a reincarnation of Smee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (formerly Smeelgova (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who disappeared just before Cirt appeared. Their interests, article for article, are identical, as is their editing style and MO, with Smee famous for bringing material critical of Scientology to the front page under WP:DYK.

So what does this have to do with WikiNews? Well, we were discussing a recent DDOS attack on the CofS on the talk page and whether it was notable (consensus seeming to be no, not notable) and I saw a reference to a WikiNews article so I went over there. I found that someone had been very busy indeed! Not only an article on Jan 20, Hackers attack Church of Scientology website but another today, "Anonymous" releases statements outlining "War on Scientology" and the first raised to FEATURED STORY status. So today, a release by some bunch of anonymous haters is front page news along with Gaza and Iraq. Who would think that? Who would benefit from that thought? Of course, I find that both were essentially written by the same person, Wilhelm. And I happen to know that Cirt's original name here was User:Curt Wilhelm Von Savage, an alias once used by Werner Erhard, the founder of EST, another of Cirt's targets, see the little treatment at Semi-Tough, similar to the treatment at Bowfinger (you may need to go back a bit as recent GA review may have toned it down). I also recognize Cirt's style in the WikiNews articles but then I am very familiar with it.

So you see my dilemma? So long as Cirt was not repeating Smee's more offensive errors and working within the community, I had no huge problem with his efforts to push his agenda. I knew that the community was large enough and the structure strong enough to hold him in check and meanwhile the project gets a prolific editor. But this WikiNews thing is a dealbreaker for me. He is using the power of Wikpedia to push the ill intentions of a small group of ne'er-do-wells (and read their page if you do not know what they are about) and he is doing it with no regard for the project or for anything other than his agenda. And there do not appear to be mechanisms in place at WikiNews to hold him in check. I really do not know where to go with this. This is a big thing and, if Cirt/Wilhelm is left unchecked, it will only get worse. Help. Please. Thanks in advance. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Please speak more! Just kidding. Wikipedia has no power over Wikinews. What users do in out-space is not under our control. You can certainly cut Wikinews links from here if you find they are not reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wjhonson (talk • contribs) 20:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, this is not a simple issue that could be summarized in a few words. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wikinews also has policy pages don't they? They must. It might be very helpful to that sister-project to take your concerns there as well. Remember that our policies were fine-tuned over many quite um.... enthusiastic discussions.Wjhonson (talk) 20:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, Wikinews isn't a reliable source at all - WP:V specifically excludes open wikis such as Wikinews from consideration as sources. (Added) I note, though, that Wired has reported on the story that you mention (see [20]) so if you really want to document it I suppose Wired would suffice as a reliable source. I don't think it's a particularly notable episode though - don't fall into the trap of recentism! -- ChrisO (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I would note however some rumblings from certain "persons to listen to" that Wikinews *might* be coming up the world. (cf somewhere Jimbo has some thoughts on this) So some editors here should probably begin paying more attention to Wikinews Policy pages before the situation gets out-of-hand. Wjhonson (talk) 22:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • There was a fairly recent discussion about this on the Foundation-l mailing list if anyone wants to go through the archive. I believe it has to do with WikiNews's policy on "archiving" (protecting) articles once there is no more news relating to the subject. Mr.Z-man 22:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wikinews has the Neutral point of view policy that all Foundation projects have. It has been reasonably well exercised over the years. Uncle G (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to argue on source reliability of WN. If there is no wrong doing or proof then nothing to worry about. So stop trolling the trolls. DragonFire1024 (talk) 01:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Alerting this project to misuse of a sister project to basically promote cyberterrorism is hardly trolling. Let's see a front page story (or two or Featured) on WikiNews about some "announcement" by Encyclopedia Dramatica. Let's see how far that gets --JustaHulk (talk) 04:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • WikiNews has the problem that their "front page stories" are really just a list of recent changes. They're probably going to have to come up with a better approach. What they have doesn't scale. --John Nagle (talk) 06:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, they aren't. What is listed on the main page is determined by a story's status. And we came up with a scalable system ages ago. We have a wide range of specific topic and area portals. Indeed, the level of new stories has nowhere near reached what the system is capable of, yet. See how low the story rate is at n:Portal:Brazil, for example. Uncle G (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Wikipedia has nothing to say about WikiNews? Yet when I look at the Scientology article, what do I see at the bottom but Cirt/Wilhelm's WikiNews over-promotion of the ill intentions of a loose collection of cyberterrorists. Interesting because at least one of the *chan's is showing more discretion than Wikipedia in that 7chan has apparently blocked promotion of this group's activity. That is a truly sad reflection on Wikipedia. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articles here are based on policy and consensus. There are many avenues to address your concerns but AN/I wouldn't be the appropriate one. We have policies that cover for example verifiability and neutral point of view and it sounds a lot to me like you're having a content issue, that should be taken to one of those talk pages, instead of here to get more input. Wjhonson (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other administrators may be interested in the discussion on my talk page at User talk:Bduke#Regarding deleting of American Journal Experts. It appears that User:Blue1, an employee or manager of American Journal Experts, wants to track down whether the user who wrote the article, now deleted, is an ex-employee of theirs. I have no intention of having any further correspondence with him. --Bduke (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, everyone. For a bit now, I've been creating and monitoring User:SQL/Unblocked TOR, using my bot, User:SQLBot. I believe, that I've got a stable list, of valid Tor (anonymity network) nodes, that allow exit to en.wikipedia.org. No other exits, not the secure server, nothing else. It's been suggested, that my list is inaccurate, as someone else list shows a few more TOR nodes. I seriously believe, that this is because I double-check nodes, and, try to err on the side of not listing it, if there is any doubt at all.

WP:BLOCK presently states Open or anonymous proxies are prohibited from editing by the Wikimedia Foundation, and may be blocked on sight., so, it seems that policy supports this. However, Tor (anonymity network) has it's good uses, such as for chineese users.

I'm presently, contemplating on a one-time run, blocking all valid TOR exits, that allow access to en.wikipedia.org, leaning towards setting the following flags: Anon only, Account Creation Blocked. The block would be for a period of 48 hours, as a test, and, tagging those exits with {{tor}}. This would leave open the secure server, for the duration of this test, and allow for logged-in editing. This would be in order to enforce our policy on open and anonymizing proxies, which is in place, to prevent vandalism, and disruption, particularly by banned users.

Now, I want to make it crystal clear, that I absolutely do not intend on doing this, without a clear consensus here, to do so. Also, if I do, I have absolutely no intention on continuing it in the future, without an equally clear consensus to do so. I run a TOR node, myself, however, I disallow wikipedia exits.

I'd like to see what other admins, and editors think, about doing this. Especially, hardblock v softblock. SQL^{Query me!} 05:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Open or anonymous proxies are prohibited from editing by the Wikimedia Foundation, and may be blocked on sight. Open or anonymous proxies may be blocked for any length of time to deal with abuse. This has bugger all to do with the Foundation – Gurch 06:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One objection I have is after this is done will there any way to anonymously create an account and edit and if so has this process been detailed anywhere? This may be a stupid idea but I don't have any trust in the checkuser process nor the foundation's ability to protect user information against large organizations or corrupt governments. BJ^Talk 06:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's always unblock-en-l, I see a lot of account creation traffic there, already. SQL^{Query me!} 06:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that there is neither a prohibition on Tor nodes editing, nor a policy against it, nor any overwhelming reason to block them all. There is also no censensus on the soft-or-hard-block question. The recent discussion at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Tor nodes is probably relevant. If someone is writing a bot, how about one to unblock all the indef-blocked proxies which are no longer open. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 12:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be happy to :) If you get me a list of every IP presently blocked for being a TOR / proxy (I've got a list of the 222 present blocked TOR nodes), I should be able to have it done by the end of the day... As far as policy regarding disabling editing from TOR, there's a couple, WP:OP, and WP:BLOCK quoted above. Not talking about blocking them all, either... Just the ones that allow WP exit (and even then, just to the regular server -- not the secure server). SQL^{Query me!} 13:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are currently over 7,000 dynamic IPs listed at WT:OP waiting to be checked, and there's a whole category full (I count over 2,000) listed at Category:Tor proxies blocked on Wikipedia. I rephrase my point - there is no overwhelming reason to block all the Tor nodes capable of editing Wikipedia, nor any consensus on the other issues. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 13:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realize there was a category! Unfortunately, real life has intervened once again :( I'll look at them in a moment, thanks! SQL^{Query me!} 19:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of the more fundamental principles of Wikipedia is that anyone can edit. Blocking tor nodes would unnecessarily hinder this principle. Soft-block them all. BETA 13:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SQL, give me 24 hours and Ill get you a list of all IP's that are blocked after 2010. that will be all indef's and very long IP blocks that are caused by proxy blocks. β^_command 16:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Betacommand, could you possibly filter it by those with {{tor}} in/as the block message? SQL^{Query me!} 19:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SQL http://tools.wikimedia.de/~betacommand/tor%20IP.txt that is a list of all IP's with "tor" in the block summary sorted by unblock date. β^_command 22:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I just added my name and noticed there is a backlog of requests at Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage for AWB, dating back to January 13. Thanks -- Matthew Edwards | talk | Contribs 06:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a backlog. Porcupine is the only user who was listed before yoyu got there, and The Placebo Effect is looking into it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can some admin please deal with the speedy images? There are over 40. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Piperdown has asked that his block be reviewed [21] in which he was accused of being a sock and/or meatpuppet of User:Wordbomb. I agree that it should be reviewed in light of recent events. Piperdown explains in a WR thread that it appears that someone monkeyed with his account to make it difficult for him to post to his talk page [22]. Also, David Gerard's actions with respect to anything he thinks is associated with Overstock.com and WordBomb is suspect, the evidence being his block of a town in Utah, stating that WordBomb lived there and falsely stating that the local ISP was an open proxy [23]. Only after a second, independent source confirmed that his statement was false did he unblock the town [24]. I don't personally believe that Piperdown's block was justified or fair and am asking that he get a neutral review from an uninvolved admin. Cla68 (talk) 06:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I read what Piperdown had to say both on his talk page here and on WR, and I have to say that I'm confused as to why he was blocked. He'd certainly seemed to be making perfectly good and valid edits up to the point of his being blocked, and his talk page looks pretty much like any other established editor's. He appears to have been indefinitely blocked without warning, from what I can see from his talkpage history. However, without David Gerard's input, I've very little to go on here so what I'd like to maybe see happen would be for David to post a statement here giving his rationale for indefinitely blocking Piperdown as a sock of Wordbomb, and allowing the admin community to review accordingly. I'm guessing David is unaware of this thread as of now, so I'll see he's made aware of it - Alison ^❤ 07:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking into it and I admit that I was remiss in not notifying Gerard of this thread myself. Cla68 (talk) 07:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Confused why he was ever blocked in the first place. He needs to be unblocked immediately Bstone (talk) 07:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page User:Piperdown/1 makes it appear that the user is either Wordbomb or a meatpuppet of him. I suggest we wait to hear from the blocking admin. Since the block was placed several months ago this isn't urgent. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Piperdown is probably WordBomb's most vociferous supporter on Wikipedia Review, and his comments on WR leave little doubt that he is highly unlikely to be a productive member of the Wikipedia community. It is also not credible that he is only just aware of being blocked; I am sure his ban was mentioned on WR ages ago. This looks like gaming the system, or at least playing us for a bunch of naive fools. Guy (Help!) 09:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My reading of Piperdown's request [25] is that he was aware of the block at the time it was placed and he is not claiming otherwise. Thincat (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His unblock request from September is all about how what he did was ok, not about how he would drop the subject so he could edit other areas of interest. Considering that, and his deleted contributions, I agree with Guy that he is unlikely to be (or resume being, if he was before) a productive editor. Thatcher 15:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone contributions on WR have absolutely nothing to do with their ability to effectively write and edit articles on this project. I am shocked anyone would make such a claim. Bstone (talk) 16:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there was no overlap between the two, fine. However, Piperdown's deleted contributions (especially User:Piperdown/1) shows that he wants to pursue the same agenda as Wordbomb of attacking certain editors for alleged conflicts of interest on certain articles, and his unblock request from September did not say, "I want to write and edit articles" but "there is nothing wrong with pursuing conflict of interest charges in this case." Thatcher 16:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, he admits that he created User:Piperdown/1 as a result of User:Mantanmoreland/1, at least that's what the deleted page states. Regarding his September unblock request, how about we ask him what the situation is now? I'm not seeing a lot of evidence here other than hearsay and the after-the-fact comments that "he is unlikely to be [...] a productive editor". I suspect he's active and vociferous on WR because he's been indefinitely blocked on here and that he sees his block as being in error. He appears to have always stated that he's not WordBomb and, frankly, if he was a throwaway sock of WB, he's kept up this pretense for an awfully long time now - Alison ^❤ 16:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alison, you might want to take a close look at some of the conspiracy-mongering this user engaged in before the block. Some diffs have been collected here, although these only scratch the surface. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll admit that I've no idea of this editor's background or past history, but I'll take a look. From his talk page history, it looks just like any other, really. I'd like to see David Gerard comment here as he's obviously the most familiar - Alison ^❤ 16:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If "pursuing conflict of interest charges" is something to be discouraged, we should delete WP:COI/N. Even if the conflicts he believes exist in fact do not - I'm sure there are some percentage of WP:COI/N reports that turn out to be incorrect. He has the right to be wrong. —Random832 18:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But he does not have the right to harass other users as a proxy for a banned editor. If he wants to pursue COI charges "for the good of the Wiki" he can contact Arbcom privately. I suppose he could be unblocked if he said something like "I disagree on principle but I will avoid that subject and edit other topics" (subject to monitoring by whatever admin took responsibility for him by unblocking) but honestly his defenders here are doing more harm than good. Thatcher 19:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a question of avoiding one subject, though. He used to follow me around trying to tie every admin action of mine into his grand conspiracy theory, and I'm probably not the only one he did it to. Can any of his defenders point to any good content he added to the encyclopedia? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does WP:AGF apply here? This is pretty much what the question boils down to at the root. If he may help wikipedia, then an unblock is right. If it's clear that he won't, then the indef block is fine. Since I haven't followed the case, I don't have an opinion personally. Wizardman 19:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am shocked this has gone on as far as it has. This fellow is blocked because he's posting at WR and because of what he might do. Seemingly, he has an opinion held by another blocked editor. Shocking. Unblock this person and be done with this. Bstone (talk) 19:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, there's an extensive history of meatpuppet behavior here, which has reached the "quacking louder than we can ignore anymore" stage. Wordbomb and other overstock.com related abusers are not welcome here, in any form. You cannot reasonably ignore the long history of misbehavior that this user has exhibited. What they're saying now here and presumably on Wikipedia Review (I haven't gone to look yet) doesn't excuse or explain their contributions for the last year. 65.200.208.230 (talk) 19:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a really, really tough time with a random, anon IP telling me that overstock.com abusers are not welcome at wikipedia. Moreover without any arbcom or other policies to backup your claim I am at the verge of giggles. This whole thing is silly. Unblock the fellow who was a good contributor to this project and enough of these silly games. Bstone (talk) 20:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then I will agree with the IP editor that Piperdown's block is about more than OMG he posts to WR. And do you really mean "overstock.com abusers" should be welcome? I assume there is typo in there somewhere, because editors who are associated with overstock.com and its crusade to explain its crappy share price as the result of naked short selling, and who then go on to smear anyone who says otherwise, including Wall Street Journal reporters, stock analysts and Wikipedia editors and administrators, is absolutely not welcome to edit Wikipedia, unless they are willing to leave that behind them when they put on their Wikipedia hat. Tell you what, as soon as Piperdown agrees to stay off the topic, you can personally unblock him, as long as you are willing to be responsible for his edits. Oh wait... Thatcher 20:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SV and others claim he was blocked due to harassment, so I don't see how a topic ban would help...unless he was actually blocked due to an unpopular POV. I'm also a little puzzled by this block. Cool Hand Luke 22:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In fairness, Piperdown has not been blocked because he posts to WR, he's been blocked because he's been accused of being a sockpuppet/meatpuppet of WordBomb. That's the issue here, not WR participation - Alison ^❤ 20:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think he was blocked because he was harassing people, in a way that suggested WordBomb sock or meatpuppetry. But it's the harassment (trolling, wikistalking, conspiracy-mongering) that was the main issue, as I recall. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the "evidence" compiled on Mantanmoreland's sub-page, I don't see any harrassment or incivility severe enough to warrant an indefinite block. In fact, I've seen some of the editors who have commented above, including myself, give opinions on issues that are just as strong. The fact that he spends some of his editing time addressing a few of the issues that Wordbomb took an interest in should also not be an offense worthy of an infefinite block. Looking at his contribution history shows a lot of value-added edits to a great variety of topics. Any association with what may or may not be Wordbomb's past agenda, no matter how tenuous, should not be some kind of "third rail" that results in indefinite blocks for good faith editors. Again, I don't believe Piperdown was treated fairly here or in a manner consistent with how other editors are treated. Cla68 (talk) 21:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the issue was the harassment, which was similar to the harassment WordBomb engaged in (similar subject matter, similar voice, the same targets), but the issue was the harassment, and it was pretty extensive. Can you supply some diffs showing positive content he added to the encyclopedia? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One has only to look at his contributions list. In addition to editing a wide variety of topics, he also started at least one article (diff later). Do you have any evidence of what most would consider to be harrassment? Cla68 (talk) 22:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[26] Well, there's one, still looking through contribs. Wizardman 22:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing that's a response to SlimVirgin's request and not Cla68, since the diff appears to be a productive edit, and I can see nothing harassing about it. alanyst ^/talk/ 22:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, that was a response to SlimVirgin. She asked for diffs, so I provided one. To be fair she asked for diffs, plural. So, here's a few more: [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] Wizardman 22:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) I think at this stage it would be more useful if diffs of clear cut harassment were supplied to back up the block. Arguments have been stated expressing that the block should be removed, so evidence refuting these arguments should be supplied. If none can be produced, then an unblock is clearly in order. Remember - anyone unblocked can be reblocked, and its unlikely anyone will die in the meantime. ^Avruchtalk 22:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This block was already challenged and upheld.[32]:

Decline reason: "I don't know about the overstock.com issue, but your stalking page User:Piperdown/1 was unacceptable, and is not less so because another user may have created a similar page. Your personal attacks on the blocking admin do not help to persuade me that you have understood what you did wrong and that you will stop doing it when unblocked. — Sandstein 06:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit fuzzy as to what has changed since then. In fact, his personal attacks on me and other editors off-site certainly don't indicate that he has any kind of deeper understanding that what he did was wrong.--Samiharris (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And that decision is sovereign and not subject to community review? I think not. Notice that there are many voices chiming in here all saying that there is not enough evidence to show that an indef block is appropriate. Unblock this fellow and let's be done with this drama. Bstone (talk) 22:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know enough about this situation to say whether anyone should be unblocked or not, but the "similar page" to which the reviewing admin refers, has been up since June of last year, even though such pages are "unacceptable". R. Baley (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That page was a collection of diffs, Piperdown's own words. Piperdown responded with an attack page. It was deleted so I can't quote from it. Bstone, you don't have any inkling of the "evidence" so how can you say it was "insufficient"? Why the rush to unblock this character?--Samiharris (talk) 22:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With a total lack of incriminating evidence, a request from the editor to be allowed to edit and a viewable and demonstratable history of good editing and you want me to side with you on keeping the indef block? Sorry, but judisprudence requires the liberation of the person. Bstone (talk) 23:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sami, the only allowable circumstance (AFAIK) in which one editor may keep a collection of diffs (or otherwise collect "evidence") on another editor is in a short term situation where there is a forthcoming process to be initiated (such as preparing for an ANI report, filing an RfAR, or starting an RfC on an editor) otherwise it isn't allowed. That page should have been deleted as well a long time ago. R. Baley (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the evidence page was overtaken by events. Bstone, sorry but nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it talk about "life, liberty and the pursuit of editing Wikipedia." Piperdown seems plenty liberated right where he is, which is in the pages of off-site websites where he can give full vent to his conspiracy theories as relates to the stock market and Wikipedia. and where he can now openly advocate WordBomb's cause.--Samiharris (talk) 23:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone please review some of the speedy's denied by Jayron. There seems to be a large number of clear cut case's which as denied , I've listed 2 below

• Bear beer bowl doughnut listed as nonsense , would tend to agree
• Féile na nGael clear cut case of copyvio.

From article The competition hosts approximately 25,000 boys and girls each year with all 32 GAA counties represented along with teams from London GAA and Warwickshire GAA.

When the preliminary competition is completed in each county, the winning club then travels to the host county or Provincial councils where they are hosted by families and engage the host club in hurling, camogie and handball games. Since 1971 over 1 million boys and girls have participated in this great festival.

From website Each year some 25,000 boys and girls take part in this festival in all 32 counties. London and Warwickshire also participate in this festival. When the preliminary competition is completed in each county, the winning club then travels to the host county or province where they are hosted by families and engage the host club in hurling, camogie and handball games. Since 1971 over 1 million boys and girls have participated in this great festival.Gnevin (talk) 08:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd agree on Féile na nGael, a copyvio doesn't need to be exactly literal in order to be a copyvio. But somebody is now taking care of it by rewriting, which is of course better than deletion. I've prod'ed the other, won't object to somebody else speedying. Jayron is formally right on that one; the "blatant nonsense" clause is rather narrow. Although a bit of IAR wouldn't have hurt here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doesn't Copyvio have to be deleted from the history also, not just removed from the article? Gnevin (talk) 08:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nah, not necessarily. We'd have a lot of work if we wanted to do that to all plagiarized revisions that get added here or there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok would just tidied up and removed the copyvio myself if I had of known that,Thanks you've been most helpful Gnevin (talk) 09:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • If an article is a copyright violation from the very first revision, it should be deleted. (It's possible to rewrite in place, but one must rewrite from scratch. Using the prior content in any way creates a derivative work, which is still a copyright violation. The {{copyvio}} template directs rewrites to a new page where new articles can be started from scratch. This is the safest and the recommended way to do a rewrite.) If there is an earlier non-infringing version, it should be reverted. See User:Uncle G/Wikipedia triage and Wikipedia:Copyright violations. Uncle G (talk) 11:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • While I agree with Jayron32 that speedy deletion of Féile na nGael was a close call, I have deleted the history revisions prior to the rewrite, just in case. I believe this solution meets the requirements Uncle G has set forth as well. Review welcome, as always. — Satori Son 16:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• I tend to be conservative at times in my speedy deletion assessments. I have speedy deleted plenty of articles, but the speedy deletion criteria are fairly narrowly defined. For example, I deny many A7 claims because A7 is specifically written for articles where no assertion of importance is claimed. Where an article asserts that "Megadynocorp is the industry leader in widget production in the East-Midlands region", well, that is a clear assertion of importance. It claims a place as an industry leader. Whether such statements amount to Wikipedia's definition of notability is debatable, which is why there is a forum in which to have that debate. A7 specificly exempts "notability" concerns as a reason for deletion, claims of importance are not the same as proof of notability. Likewise, the other criteria are specifically written as narrow as possible. G1, Patent Nonsense, the criteria that the Beer Pong Whatever game was tagged under, is specifically for gibberish or otherwise incoherant articles. The article was perfectly coherant. It was entirely in violation of WP:NFT, however, NFT is not a speedy deletion criteria. There are other venues to get articles deleted, and a denial of a speedy deletion IS NOT THE EQUIVALENT OF A KEEP VOTE BY THE ADMIN. I am not saying that these articles are worth keeping at Wikipedia, however the speedy deletion process is not equiped to deal with them. Even apparent NFT articles could turn up sources at some point. As far as the copyvio criteria, I have always taken the idea of "blatant copyright" (and that is the word in G12, "blatant") to mean a straight cut-and-paste text job. If an article is paraphrased from another source, and such a paraphrase represents a questionable use of copyright, well, its the kind of thing that requires interpretation of the reader to say how close the text is or isn't to the source text. That doesn't sound blatant. Its open for interpretation, which again, is why we have places for said debates to go on. For me, that there are 2 other deletion processes in place, means that there is less harm in keeping a borderline case than deleting it. If its borderline, then having a discussion as to which side of the border it lies is appropriate... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Very well stated, Jayron. I've been doing a bit of CSD myself, and it's a lot tougher than it looks on the surface. Either the article's creator is going to blast your talkpage, or the article's nominator. It's better to err on the side of keeping with an explicit edit summary that says exactly why it's not speedy and exactly where the nominator should bring it. Keeper | 76 17:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bear beer bowl doughnut was tricky--I too almost deleted it as nonsense, but I decided to see if anyone else would do it. Borderline, and deleting or declining equally reasonable. An AfD would have given a quick snow delete, as an alternative. The question is more that if one admin explicitly declines, should another admin speedy it? I do not think so. DGG (talk) 21:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strictly construed, I don't believe bear beer etc. was speedy-able except as an "IAR speedy" - it wasn't nonsense, it was just a clear violation of WP:NFT, which is currently not a speedy deletion criterion. I certainly wouldn't object to adding NFT (in some form) as a speedy criterion, as it's among the most common "wish I could speedy-tag this, but I'll prod it instead" circumstances I encounter when new-page patrolling. I assume it's been brought up before on WT:CSD, though. JavaTenor (talk) 22:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone noticed that protecting a page has two expiries?? Is this an error??

I noticed it when I used the latest version, 1.43.0-wmf.5 (58d6360), as used here.

Thanks, --Solumeiras (talk) 16:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked at the protection page and can only see one. You may want to check out WP:VPT. Nakon 17:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, on the SVN downloaded version, it showed two! --Solumeiras (talk) 17:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • What Nakon meant to say was that issues of a technical nature are not really the specialty of admins; since this seems to be a software-related issue, the appropriate place to ask this question would be at the Technical page at the Village Pump. Someone there will be able to understand what is going on, and may be able to answer your question, and possibly fix the problem. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • Or you don't want to confuse Wikipedia with the software it uses. I suggest you head over to The mediawiki website and ask question about the software there. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 20:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Betacommand has requested that I post for community discussion about a bot that I just proposed, called IPTaggerBot. If you are interested in commenting on the subject, please review the bot approval request at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/IPTaggerBot as well as the bot's userpage at User:IPTaggerBot. Thank you. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 17:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Surely this should also be somewhere like the village pump if you want broader community input? --81.104.39.63 (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps so; I will post it there as well. Thank you for the input. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 20:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think young Agentperson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is playing games here - and see his edit history. He's had a few warnings about other vandalisms - might be time for something stronger. And while we're at it, isn't "USERNAME" a problematic username? Tvoz |talk 19:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If he was, he played the game in SEPTEMBER 2006!!! Look at the dates. The recent heath ledger vandalism is bothersome, but the test RFA page is so old it's collecting dust. I will delete it presently. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I guess I didn't look at the dates. Sorry.... but at least it's one less page. Tvoz |talk 20:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like another bad RfA Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Burner0718. Tiptoety ^talk 22:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A user wants his coaching discussion page deleted because he believes his IP could be discovered through it. What's the policy on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Transhumanist (talk • contribs) 23:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

... please see and reply to this discussion.

The Transhumanist 22:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC) [reply]