You wrote in 2012:

The Wikimedia Foundation has zero collaboration with the government of Kazakhstan. Wikibilim is a totally independent organization. And it is absolutely wrong to say that I am "helping the Kazakh regime whitewash its image". I am a firm and strong critic. At the same time, I'm excited by the work of volunteers, and I believe - very strongly - that an open and independent Wikipedia will be the death knell for tyranny in places like Kazakhstan. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is absolutely silly to suggest that I'm in any way actively supporting tyrants.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

How's that working out? The NY Times writes (3 December 2015):

Government officials in Kazakhstan are borrowing a page from China, quietly devising their own version of China’s so-called Great Firewall to unscramble encrypted web and mobile traffic as it flows in and out of Kazakh borders.

... Unlike with China, which filters data through an expensive and complex digital infrastructure known as the Great Firewall, security experts say Kazakhstan is trying to achieve the same effect at a lower cost. The country is mandating that its citizens install a new “national security certificate” on their computers and smartphones that will intercept requests to and from foreign websites.

That gives officials the opportunity to read encrypted traffic between Kazakh users and foreign servers, in what security experts call a “man in the middle attack.”

As a result, Kazakh telecom operators, and government officials, will be privy to mobile and web traffic between Kazakh users and foreign servers, bypassing encryption protections known as S.S.L., or Secure Sockets Layer, and H.T.T.P.S., technology that encrypts browsing sessions and is familiar to users by the tiny padlock icon that appears in browsers.

Peter Damian (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain further what you mean by your question "How's that working out?" The terrible recent developments in Kazakhstan are to be deplored and opposed, as with their human rights record stretching back for many years. There is very good reason to think that a strong and independent Wikipedia (along with an open Internet generally) will be the death knell for such regimes, and this is a fight which will take decades.

In terms of this recent initiative, which effectively mandates a "man in the middle" attack, I will be campaigning with the major Internet providers globally to blacklist the Kazakh certificate and to improve and strengthen MITM protection via certificate pinning.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By 'how's that working out', I meant 'how is [an open and independent Wikipedia] working out [in terms of being the death knell for tyranny in places like Kazakhstan]'. A knell is a loud sounding or ringing that happens when death is imminent, rather than 'will take decades'. Peter Damian (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It will take decades, particularly in areas that are mostly neglected by liberal democracies.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you claimed in 2012 that 'Wikibilim is a totally independent organization'. Wasn't there a question about that? Peter Damian (talk) 18:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am unaware of any questions about that. It remains true.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

‘ “Kazaksha Wikipedia” project is implemented under the auspices of the Government of Kazakhstan and with the support of Prime Minister Karim Massimov, head of “Wikibilim” public fund Rauan Kenzhekhanuly said in an interview for PM.kz site.’ [1] — Official web site of Kazakhstan prime minister Karim Massimo. Further reading: [2], [3], the December 23 2012 online Examiner article Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales denies Kazakhstan connection, and this Wales talk page thread, in which Wales participated, entitled Kazakhstan government support for Kazakh Wikipedia. Factoid: Currently 50% of Wikibilim’s trustees are paid government employees. Writegeist (talk) 03:29, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is completely false that Kazakh language Wikipedia is a project of the Government of Kazakhstan. Wikibilim is a completely independent organization with no control over the Kazakh Wikipedia. It is not a local chapter, and there are no plans for it ever to become a local chapter. As of the last time I checked, Wikibilim employees do not edit Wikipedia. It is easy to piece together misleading quotes to try to imply things that aren't true - but it's easier to just tell the truth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:02, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By flatly contradicting the Kazakhstan prime minister’s official statement, you are saying that either he doesn’t know what his own government is doing or he’s lying on his office’s website (perhaps calculating that outside Kazakhstan the only likely challenge to the lie would be an unsubstantiated one from someone whose veracity on this page in relation to Kadazhstan had already been thrown into question by that same someone's own words, i.e. (1) “Past connection to the Kazakh dictatorship" - total and utter and complete bullshit. I have no past connection of any kind to the Kazakh dictatorship. — Jimbo Wales, Jimbotalk, 14 December 2014. (2) “I’ve been getting in touch with the government there. I've been talking to the Prime Minister there [ …] I'm going in December and I'm gonna give the award in the presence of the Prime Minister …" — Jimbo Wales, 2011 closing ceremony speech at Wikimania 2011)

Also of interest here: Before he became president of Wikibilim, Rauan Kenzhekhanuly (first recipient of the aforementioned Wikipedian of the Year award) was first secretary at Kazakhstan’s embassy in Moscow and head of Kazakhstan’s government-controlled propagandist TV operation, which was launched by the daughter of Nursultan Nazarbayev. Oh. Who he? President of Kazakhstan.

Wiikibilim is funded by Samruk-Kazyna, Kazakhstan’s sovereign wealth fund. The state is its sole shareholder. Chairman of S-K’s board when Wikibilim was set up: Timur Asqaruly Kulibayev. Who he? Husband of Dinara Nursultanovna. And who she? President Nazarbayev’s daughter. Writegeist (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if he says that, then he's lying. This surprises you?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:22, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat more than if you are, as I’m more familiar with your track record than with Massimov’s.

You say that Massimo is lying; that there’s no state control exercised in this instance by a government that’s notorious for control and censorship of information and the media, and for suppression of free speech; and that Wikibillim is independent of the government that funds it, fills half the seats on its board of trustees with government employees, and selects 100 of its users to receive free laptops in return for transcribing and writing government-approved articles, none of which address Kazakhstan’s record on human rights or suppression of independent media. Am I surprised you say that? Not in the least.

By the way, FYI, as apparently you are unaware, your unsupported assertion that Massimov is a liar violates the BLP policy, which applies to this page just as it does anywhere on Wikipedia. (For more information on Wikipedia’s BLP policy, refer to WP:BLP.) Writegeist (talk) 18:19, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Astonishing. Mr. Wales has just said that everyone in Kazakhstan who runs the Wikipedia project there, and says it is backed and funded by the state, is lying. Instead the truth is as Wales presents it - that Kazakh Wikipedia is independent of the Kazakh government. Don't believe your own lying eyes kids. Again, Republican primary debate levels of astonishing.Dan Murphy (talk) 18:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, come on. If you put words in my mouth, you can make it seem like just about anything. There are very serious concerns and problems with the Wikibilim organization, but it remains the case that the Kazakh language Wikipedia is not a project of the government. If Massimov says that it is, he's lying. If he's concerned about that as a BLP violation, then he's free to complain. I have not said that Wikibilim is independent of the government that funds it - it is not. What I have said is that Wikibilim is completely independent of the Wikimedia Foundation and of me. I have no connection with the Kazakh government, despite the ongoing pretense by people who know better. I oppose them firmly. I have had contact with them in the past, and I would imagine that I will again - to lobby for change. I will not apologize for that, nor will I allow dishonest people to portray opposition as support.

There is a much more interesting conversation to be had. Rather than dishonestly trying to pin something on me, a rather ridiculous thing to do, it would be better to show some genuine concern for the people of Kazakhstan, and suggest genuine ways that we can help in the current situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, dear. Wikibilim runs the Kazakh Wikipedia. Wikibilim is entirely funded and run by the Kazkh government and senior Kazakh government bureaucrats. The vast majority of the Kazakh Wikipedia is articles imported from the government's official propaganda encyclopedia. The Kazakh government's academy of arts and sciences runs "fact checking and quality control" on the Kazakh Wikipedia. The Kazakh Wikipedian of the year you named was prior to that award, and since, a rising star in the repressive firmament of the Kazakh regime. And your response to people who say this shows the Kazakh government runs the Kazakh Wikipedia is to call them "liars." It's astonishing you get away with such counterfactual claims. At any rate, this is like talking about the nuclear triad with Donald Trump. I'm out.Dan Murphy (talk) 20:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What he said. Anyone of reasonable intelligence who has been paying attention to this thread can see where the porkies are.

@Jimbo Wales. Question: did you ever actually pay the Kazakh state apparatchik the much trumpeted $5,000 that supposedly went with his Wikipedia of the Year award? A straightforward, factually correct reply please. A simple yes or no will do. Thank you. Then I’m done with you here.

Oh, one other thing. You wrote above, on 15 December, “Wikibilim is a completely independent organization with no control over the Kazakh Wikipedia. It is not a local chapter, and there are no plans for it ever to become a local chapter.” (Emphasis added.) Wikibilim’s own CC submission states: “Recognition of «Wikibilim» as a Wikipedia’ local chapter in Kazakhstan is in progress.” [4] Obviously there were plans for Wikibilim to become a local chapter. What happened to its application? Why were the plans permanently scrapped? Writegeist (talk) 16:55, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I see there's an article HTTP Public Key Pinning, and more information on MITM attacks at Transport Layer Security (some copypasted from Stackexchange, according to a tag there...). I don't really understand it though, or how to apply it here. Key pinning is apparently already being bypassed in the Chromium browser to allow the actions that our corporations (and perhaps the Kazakh officials) call "content inspection" - wouldn't a Kazakh end up being unable to do anything online unless he disabled it such a way? And as for blacklisting certificates - how do you blacklist every certificate the Kazakh government could obtain? Wnt (talk) 12:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, they are distributing a certificate to everyone in Kazakhstan. If that one gets blacklisted, they could get another one, and distribute that one, but... I'll be looking for technical advice as to the most effective thing that we (and other internet providers of various kinds) can do to help.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like this is in flux. [5] I don't know nearly enough about TLS to understand whether a third party site can figure out which top level certificate authority issued a certificate, or how much data it knows about you from that, though I would suspect the worst. But if Kazakhstan actually does execute a MITM attack against a connection, can't they request whatever certificate they want from whomever they want to apply at the point past the "Firewall", as if they were the computer owner, thereby concealing their role? Wnt (talk) 15:06, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The way certificates work is that the creator generates a pair of keys—private and public. Everyone can get the public key and can use it to check messages signed with the private key. Your computer and/or browser has a list of trusted certificate authorites, and a method to check the trust has not been revoked. The browser will establish an encrypted connection with a web server, but the browser will fill the screen with warnings if the server is not using a certificate from a trusted authority. Presumably the Kazakhstan plan is that each citizen would install a Kazakhstan authority as trusted. Then the government could MITM encrypted sessions—citizen computer to government proxy would be encrypted using the Kazakhstan certificate, and proxy to target web server (say Wikipedia) would be encrypted using the Wikipedia certificate. That is how a company web proxy works when a company workstation establishes an encrypted connection with an external web server such as Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 02:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Independence of Kazakh language Wikipedia

You wrote "It is completely false that Kazakh language Wikipedia is a project of the Government of Kazakhstan." (06:02, 16 December 2015).

Let's take a look.The English Wikipedia has an article, Zhanaozen massacre, describing a labour protest where 14 civilians were killed by police. The state described the killed as "hooligans". On the Kazakh Wikipedia, the same article is entitled Жаңаөзен оқиғасы, which translates roughly as "Zhanaozen Story". In English it's a massacre, in Kazakh it's just a story. The lead of the English-language article notes: "The massacre was a stark illustration of the country's poor human rights record under President Nursultan Nazarbayev." The Kazakh article mentions Nazarbayev by name only once: "On December 22, a special visit was made by President Nursultan Nazarbayev who arrived in the Mangistau region."

The largest section of the English article details the testimony disclosed during the investigations after the shootings. It generally focuses on the point of view of the protesters and of outside watchdog groups. The largest section of the Kazakh article details the testimony of the General Prosecutor's Office, which describes the protesters as having engaged in "misconduct", and that "the suppression of the riots" was necessary "for the protection of civilians". The hooligans were participating in "mass disorder". And that's why 64 people were shot.

Peter Damian (talk) 12:16, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How Kazakh language Wikipedia aids censorship

And as I have pointed out to you before, the development of the Kazakh encyclopedia is part of the process of 'Kazakhisation', i.e. to move both the culture and the language of Kazakhstan away from Russian (a quarter of the population are ethnically Russian) to Kazakh. The department of education has excluded many Russian classics from its instructional program, and there has been a deliberate imposition of Kazakh culture, including Nazarbayev’s brainchild, the six volume national encyclopedia, which began publication in 1999, and which has now been incorporated into the Kazakh Wikipedia. As Bhavna Dave put it, the primary value of the Kazakh language is as an instrument of nationalisation.

The practical effect of the language program is discrimination and censorship. Discrimination, because the Kazakh constitution holds that all public jobs require knowledge of the Kazakh language, which amounts to excluding Russians from the public sector. Beginning in the late 1990s, candidates for the presidency were required to pass a test for proficiency in Kazakh language and culture.

Censorship, because no one understands the Kazakh language outside Kazakhstan. As long as Russian remains the language of inter-ethnic communication in the Kazakhstan, it is a means of opening its speakers to ideas circulating outside the country on TV and on the Internet. While the internet can supposedly route its signal around any obstacle, it can’t help people understand that signal. Once Nazarbayev’s program to focus the teaching of Kazakh on the next generation is realised, no one in the country will understand external media. There is no need to censor something that no one can understand. “Looking at the situation in the long-term perspective, if Kazakh language policy is successfully implemented in the same direction at a similar pace, in few generations we are going to have more and more people who have access to only part of the story unless they learn other languages”, says my friend Yevgeniya Plakhina, a freelance journalist who contributes to the banned opposition newspaper Respublika. “Access to other sources might be also blocked because Kazakhstan has very restrictive mass media and internet legislation. It is clever to say that if you show part of the story it does not mean it is lies”.

Peter Damian (talk) 13:12, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One of the most useful exercises of freedom of expression I've seen, the interlibrary loan service Sci-Hub, actually started in Kazakhstan.^[6] So that country is not always behind the U.S. - and sometimes, they're out ahead. Wnt (talk) 17:45, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Damian, while I share most of your concerns here, I disagree with your take on the Kazakh language issue. They are indeed downplaying Russian, but that's no different from the vast majority of post-Soviet states who want to distance themselves from their former colonial masters and stress their own national identity. In contrast, they are pushing hard for better English levels, for example Nazarbayev University requires at least band 6 in IELTS. Part of this is for geopolitical reasons (Nazo is nervous about Russia eventually seeking to annex parts of north Kazakhstan with Russian majorities) and part for pragmatic business reasons: 2 devaluations in 22 months have shown them that their economy is over-dependent on natural resource prices and Russia and they're seeking to diversify away from that. Valenciano (talk) 22:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks that's very helpful - I didn't know about the English thing. Though this does not detract from my main point: that projects such as individual language Wikipedias can often conflict with the broader aims of the Wikimedia movement - particularly opposition to censorship. Peter Damian (talk) 19:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikibilim: the unanswered questions

Jimbo Wales, apparently you missed these questions, which were buried in a preceding thread, so I’m giving them more prominence here. And pinging you.

Q1: Did you ever actually pay the Kazakh state apparatchik the $5,000 that supposedly went with his Wikipedia of the Year award?

Q2: You wrote above, on 15 December, “Wikibilim is a completely independent organization with no control over the Kazakh Wikipedia. It is not a local chapter, and there are no plans for it ever to become a local chapter.” (Emphasis added.) Wikibilim’s own CC submission states: “Recognition of «Wikibilim» as a Wikipedia local chapter in Kazakhstan is in progress.” [7] Obviously there were plans for Wikibilim to become a local chapter. What happened to its application? Why were the plans permanently scrapped?

Writegeist (talk) 08:26, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Q1: No.

Q2: You would have to ask them and people directly involved in the chapter submission process. If I had to guess, when it became clear that such an application would be very unlikely to be approved, they dropped further action on it. But I'm not directly involved. If the matter came to the board, I would strongly encourage the board to not approve the application without some major changes and some thorough due diligence.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Q1: Thank you for clearing that up.

Q2: I note your emphasis on "due diligence". It’s interesting that Nartay Ashim, Wikibilim’s “National Coordinator”, is listed among the attendees at the 2012 Wikimedia Conference Chapters meeting (so apparently the WMF were already treating Wikibilim as a chapter); and that the WMF gave Wikibilim $16,000 for the 2012 Turkic Wikimedia Conference in Kazakhstan. Was that because the WMF board had failed in its due diligence? I.e. had the WMF failed to grasp that the Kazakh Wikipedia is a project of the Kazakh government?

When you’d accepted the official invitation to Kazakhstan from Yerlan Idrissov (their ambassador to the US), Khazak TV announced you’d thanked the Kazakh government for “creating conditions for significant achievements in the development of the Kazakh language Wikipedia”, and that you’d announced your intention to visit (as you did on Wikipedia). You didn’t go; and neither, as you now confirm, did you ever pay the promised $5,000 to the Kazakh state apparatchik who won your Wikipedian of the Year award. Was that because it wasn’t until after you'd thanked the Kazakh government that you did your due diligence? Writegeist (talk) 23:07, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have never met nor spoken nor even heard of Yerlan Idrissov. I have never accepted any official invitation to Kazakstan. I have never spoken to anyone at the Kazakh embassy in the US. I have never spoken to Kazakh TV.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kazakh TV reported "The Kazakhstan Ambassador to the US Yerlan Idrissov has already handed over an official invitation to Mr. Wales. Having accepted the invitation, Jimmy Wales thanked the Kazakh government for creating conditions for significant achievements in the development of the Kazakh language Wikipedia." One of you is not telling the truth. Peter Damian (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You brought up the issue of “due diligence” and I’d like to return to that for a moment. Wikibilim’s “National Coordinator” is listed among the attendees at the 2012 Wikimedia Conference Chapters meeting (i.e. the WMF accorded Wikibilim chapter status even though it was not a chapter); and the WMF also gave Wikibilim $16,000 for the 2012 Turkic Wikimedia Conference in Kazakhstan. Was that because the WMF board had not done its due diligence? I.e. had failed to grasp that the Kazakh Wikipedia is a project of the Kazakh government?

At Wikimania 2011 you announced the inaugural “Global Wikipedian of the Year award, in my opinion, given by me personally”. 2011 You also announced you’d been connecting with the Kazakh government and talking to the Kazakh prime minister (the man you recently called a liar), and that you'd be going to Kazakhstan to present the award in his august presence: ”I’ve been following the story of Kazakh Wikipedia [ … ] and I also I've been getting in touch with the government there. I've been talking to the Prime Minister there. [ …] I'm going in December and I'm gonna give the award in the presence of the Prime Minister.” (Same link.) The honored Global Wikipedian of the Year was a Kazakh government operative who ran the government-funded organization tasked with giving Kazakhstan's heavily censored and propagandist national encyclopedia the Wikipedia imprimatur of respectability and independence., and with further adding government-approved content. Presumably you had not done your due diligence, as otherwise you would have known what this fellow was. So when you broke your promise to go to Kazakhstan, and also broke the promise to pay the $5,000 that accompanied the award, was it because you had done your due diligence in the meantime (or someone had done it for you), and it had finally dawned on you that the Kazakh Wikipedia is a project of the Kazakh government?

Above you say: “I have never met nor spoken nor even heard of Yerlan Idrissov"— Kazakhstan's ambassador to the US; and "I have never accepted any official invitation to Kazakstan. I have never spoken to anyone at the Kazakh embassy in the US.” (Emphasis added.)

At Wikimania 2012 you said: “I met with the Ambassador of Kazakhstan this morning.”

Which of these two statements is the truth?

Writegeist (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably the second one. I have no recollection of it, and I can say I certainly didn't have any sort of formal sit down meeting. In a line up of dignitaries, it is of course possible. As I have said before, I misspoke if I said in 2011 that I had talked to the Kazakh Prime Minister at that time. I had talked to his office, an Australian guy named Catallus. And since then, I have met with the Prime Minister of Kazakhstan and spoke to him about his country's dreadful human rights record. I've also had, with Orit Kopel of the Jimmy Wales Foundation for Freedom of Information, a formal meeting with the Kazakh Ambassador to discuss freedom of expression. I will continue to have meetings with dignitaries and officials from many countries to lobby for positive change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:55, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

When someone makes untrue claims about themselves and then backtracks with the euphemism much favored by politicians caught in a lie (“I misspoke”) it leaves an impression of duplicity that’s hard to eradicate.

I note your response evaded my points about due diligence, and I won't press you further. Instead let's examine your claim (in your reply to Peter Damian in the "More contradictions" section) that the Kazakh regime was “interested in change” in 2012— which you cite in support of your “diplomatic gestures to open a discussion”.

In a 2012 article titled “Change put on hold in Nazabayev’s Kazakhstan” Luca Anceschi clearly stated the Kazakh regime’s intractable opposition to change at that time:

• “[There is] a sense of political stagnation that pervades today’s Kazakhstan. A sense that much-needed change has been postponed until the inevitable, though not yet imminent, leadership change [. . .] the (authoritarian) impetus of the 1990s and the 2000s has been replaced by the immobility typical of the end of an era [. . .] It is possible to identify the precise moment at which Kazakhstan entered this phase of possibly irreversible decline, and that is Nazarbayev’s decision to run in the snap presidential election of early 2011 [. . .] Two things mark the post-election landscape: the appearance of a more stable regime and the neutralisation of every form of internal opposition. The neutralisation happened quickly, and targeted both discontent within the elite, as with the radicalisation of society, which in the recent months had come to be viewed as even more dangerous [. . .] Kazakhstan’s future outlook, in this sense, does not appear bright, as the rapid deterioration of whatever little internal dialogue had survived 20 years of fictitious liberalisation is now exacerbating the socio-political stagnation into which the regime slid in 2011 [and] change for Kazakhstan is postponed to a later date.” (Emphasis added.) [8]

Three years later Anceschi would write that the regime still "seeks to sanitise the local media landscape in its print, broadcast, and digital segments.”

This Central Asian scholar’s informed views (which I trust you won’t rubbish, as you did those of a Chinese dissident, as “loud-mouthed rhetoric”) contradict the claim that the regime was “interested in change”. They were interested in it only insofar as it was anathema—they saw it as antithetical to their tyrannical socio-political ideology and self-interest, and blocked it accordingly.

The regime's obdurate opposition to change is further evident in the Human Rights Watch World Reports on Kazakhstan for 2011, 2012, and 2013:

• 2011: “During its 2010 chairmanship of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), Kazakhstan's human rights record was marred by continued disappointments. Restrictive amendments to media and Internet laws remained, and a number of websites and weblogs were blocked on a regular basis.” (Emphasis added.)

• 2012: “Kazakhstan failed to carry out long-promised human rights reforms in the year following its chairmanship of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). Instead, its rights record suffered further setbacks. Control of the penitentiary systems moved from the Ministry of Justice to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, putting prisons back in police control, and a new restrictive religion law was adopted. Websites were blocked and legal amendments limiting media freedoms remained. A union lawyer was imprisoned for six years for speaking out on workers’ rights.” (Emphasis added.)

• 2013: “Kazakhstan’s human rights record seriously deteriorated in 2012, following violent clashes In December 2011 between police and demonstrators, including striking oil workers, in western Kazakhstan. Authorities blamed outspoken oil workers and political opposition activists for the unrest. Freedom of assembly is restricted and dozens were fined or sentenced to administrative arrest in early 2012 for participating in peaceful protests. A restrictive law on religious freedoms remained in force. Media remains under tight control and there were attacks on independent journalists.” (Emphasis added.)

You mentioned media reports asserting the Kazakh regime's interest in change. In the light of the above, it would be interesting to see them. Were they Kazakh state media?

Writegeist (talk) 19:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Writegeist:

You are essentially calling Jimmy a liar, and generally harassing him in this entire 6,000 word section. I'll be mostly out-of-touch until the new year. I hope you can make amends before then. Otherwise, I'll just assume you are unwelcome on this page. Happy holidays. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:40, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Smallbones:: I think you're over-reacting. There is no doubt that the Kazakh government have been responsible for serious human right infringements. And how much they control the kk.wp is an interesting question. Whether or not it is Jimbo's "fault", as a member of the WMF board he is the right sort of person to pose these questions. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 04:39, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever Wales may or may not be—and I see no need to hazard a guess here—he's certainly not such a precious snowflake as to be incapable of conducting a robust dialogue without officious, dishonest, patronizing, and threatening interventions by Smallbones. Writegeist (talk) 07:39, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More contradictions

1. You say you will not "allow dishonest people to portray opposition as support". Yet you say at the Wikimania 2012 conference (time code 23:45 onwards) that you are going to give the award [to Rauan] 'in the presence of the President and Prime Minister'. So that's opposition, and it would be really "dishonest" to portray your giving an award in the presence of the Kazakh President and Prime Minister as support? I don't follow this.
2. "I have not said that Wikibilim is independent of the government that funds it - it is not." But you say in your interview with Yevgeniya – now ironically deleted from the internet, probably by the Kazakh authorities – that "Wikibilim is absolutely independent. They do not [control] and do not [manage] the Kazakh-Wikipedia", and you say that while there was a government grant, it was issued without any obligations [regarding] the Wikipedia content (which Wikibilim in any [event] does not control). You also concede in that interview that the funds were used to import the Kazakh encyclopedia, but as I have pointed out above, that encyclopedia is an instrument of nationalisation, whose effects are both discrimination and censorship.

Peter Damian (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Diplomatic gestures to open a discussion, given promises from aides and general news reports at the time that they were interested in change, is not support for a tyrannical regime, but support for change.

I don't understand your second point at all. It seems dependent on severe and deliberate misinterpretation of multiple parties. Wikibilim does not control and does not manage the Kazakh language Wikipedia. Indeed, when I last checked, employees are forbidden from editing Wikipedia. If that has changed, that's interesting and useful information - I haven't checked recently. There have been other instances of previous encyclopedias being imported with permission into Wikipedia (one in Kerala comes to mind) and yes - they generally come in with severe biases that the community needs to correct.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Indeed, when I last checked, employees are forbidden from editing Wikipedia." - Jimmy Wales, Dec. 25 2015. In January 2013 you were expressly told that Wikibilim employees (that is, Kazakh government employees) were editing the Kazakh Wikipedia. When the evidence of Wikibilim honcho Nartay Ashim editing the Kazakh Wikipedia was presented to you, you responded. "He edits on his own time. Lots of people do that." They were never forbidden from editing Wikipedia (and it's strange that you would claim to know so much about internal policy of an organization you otherwise have claimed you know little about - never-mind that that's not the policy). At any rate, the Kazakh Wikipedia is now run by the Kazakh government. It was run by the Nazarbayev regime at the time you rewarded the Kazakh government propaganda official Rauan Kenzhekhanuly with "Wikipedian of the year." It is still run by the Nazarbayev regime. It will be run by the regime for the foreseeable future. That has been the succesful Nazarbayev regime strategy for Wikipedia - and a model that's incredibly easy for other dictators to emulate, thanks to the Wikimedia's own policies and actions. Or perhaps better: Non-actions.Dan Murphy (talk) 17:34, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dependency matrix

Of course you know very well that it sounds cool if you say they are "completely independent" while omitting to make clear that you mean completely independent of the Wikimedia Foundation. To help out, here is a matrix connecting the four different entities.

This chart is misleading and confusing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:55, 25 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would be helpful to indicate where you think it is misleading and confusing - thanks Peter Damian (talk) 18:58, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mr Wales probably means that it doesn't give any indication of the direction of the dependency. In other words, when we look at the chart, are you suggesting that the government of Kazakhstan is entirely dependent on Wikibilim for the survival of the government? Not likely, but it could be interpreted that way. Whole milch (talk) 20:28, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Merry Christmas from Canada, Jimbo.

I am making an appeal to you regarding the decision made here

I see an editor states above that appeals to you on this talk page must be made within 7 days of the ArbCom decision.

That 7 day time limit is why I am coming here with my appeal right now.

I have nothing to add to the information, comments etc. which are within the request for enforcement link other than I think the ban is too broad even if accepting all of the "evidence" against me.

Also, please note that I have been a productive editor for over 8 years with no blocks, and over 10 thousand problem free edits, most related to U.S. politics including these Usernames[[10]][11] which are noted on my User and talk pages. I am a very old man and I forgot my passwords a couple of times after wikibreaks which is why I had other Usernames

Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I am mistaken, your topic ban was not imposed by ArbCom, it was imposed by an admin closing a discussion at WP:AE. I am not an expert on these procedures, but I believe your correct route of appeal is to ArbCom, not to Jimbo. Neutron (talk) 01:04, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, however, the notice put on my talk page says "This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at".....thus stating that it was a decision by the Arbitration Committee, or am I misunderstanding some difference in terminology? But I am just plain confused, as I have never even been blocked or sanctioned at all, yet now seem to be the only Editor banned from this broad topic. I would really appreciate any info from anybody as to how to appeal this ban. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:52, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are not the only editor under this topic ban. The appeals process is outlined here. Gamaliel (talk) 03:52, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gamaliel, your statement and rebuttal helped ban me, so I am wondering why you appear within seconds here? Since you came here, maybe you can clarify whether I was banned by ArbCom as stated on the notice on my talk page or not? Also, the link you provide was already on my talk page but says nothing about an appeal to ArbCom. Please clarify exactly where I go to appeal to ArbCom. Nocturnalnow (talk) 04:00, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not stalking you. I am one of 3,344 editors who have this page on their watchlist, and many of them use this space to discuss issues important to the community or to provide assistance to others, as I attempted to do here. Please take my message in the spirit it was intended. The link I provided does in fact provide instructions on how to appeal to the Arbitration Committee, specifically in step 3 of "Appeals by sanctioned editors". Gamaliel (talk) 04:13, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies,Gamaliel, I am upset as you might be under similar circumstances. I will try the step 3 you refer to. Best wishes, Nocturnalnow (talk) 04:20, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo Wales, I hope you have a Merry Christmas and hope your day is full of the true spirit of the day. Plus, good food, good family and good times. :) Have a Great Day! :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:30, 25 December 2015 (UTC) [reply] Spread the joy of Christmas by adding {{subst:User:Neutralhomer/MerryChristmas}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 15:57, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have come to you before regarding this topic and after a year of suppression still I am unable to bring the subject to main space. The topic is Involuntary celibacy, the ongoing DRV can be found here Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 December 21.

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination)
• First DRV
• Second DRV
• RfC request
• Third DRV
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (3rd nomination)

I have provided the full history for any page stalker wishing to participate. There is an overabundance of sources which shows the concept has over a century of research and study. This is certainly not fringe nor WP:NEO. The reason for this concept's suppression may be political because as far as I can tell it passes every GNG and NPOV guideline. There was also a great deal of of wikicavassing in favor of deletion all of which I provided in the DRV including your comment from March 16th of this year. I hoping for your input for or against, so far not one editor endorsing deletion as provided reasons based on the most recent AfD. I feel this is the prime example for what happens when editors mobbed together and vote WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If administrator can supervote and override both consensus and policy then editing Wikipedia becomes difficult. I really hoped to rectify this issue before the year's end. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 13:43, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]