The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 22:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add your comment per Wikipedia:Straw polls.

This vote is to make the generic name "The Nation" link to the disambiguation page (The Nation (disambiguation)), and links to the US periodical to require the more specific name "The Nation (U.S. periodical)".

See also prior discussions at Talk:The Nation (disambiguation)#The Nation shouldn't be a dab page and Talk:The Nation (disambiguation)#Responding to the RfC.

Support

1. Support name change to something more specific. This is like in the Middle Ages when people found that they needed to add more names if they planned to leave their village. Some people really need to get out more. Jon Awbrey 05:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Support move, make The Nation a disambiguation page, and I will volunteer to personally fix all inbound links to The Nation and change them to The Nation (U.S. periodical). Stifle 11:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Support move, current arrangement may seem natural to those in the US but less so to the rest of us. If the older, (Irish) nation were the main page and the later US production on a disambiguation fork, now THAT would make sense .... Zymurgy 12:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4. Strong Support. Just because The Nation article sat unchallenged for 2 years does not mean the US-centric argument is the right one instead of an encyclopaedic viewpoint. Of course the US publication has a greater circulation but the US is not the centre of everything. Now that there are other articles with the same basic title a disambiguation page IS necessary. If the Irish publication had been written first would we even be discussing this? No, we would, most likely, just have made a disambiguation page and it would be over. I don't think the London and Dublin arguments are similar. There are no other The Times articles but maybe The Guardian too should be a disambiguation page rather than the British publication. Remember that Wikipedia is constantly changing, so why should the earliest article, or publication with largest circulation, or longest article, or most literary article win the battle. Disambiguation is IMHO, without a doubt, the way to go. ww2censor 14:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
5. Support move. If a name has an internationally recognised meaning across cultures, and a couple of variants that are local, it makes sense for the internationally known version to get the main page and the rest to be linked in a special disambigulation page linked to the main page. Hence as the world thinks of the British capital when they say London, we place London as the main page, and other local Londons at a disambigulation link. Ditto with Paris, Dublin, Rome, etc all of whom have multiple users of the name but only one internationally recognised one. That is not the case here. To U.S. users, The Nation means a periodical printed and distributed in the US. To Irish users, The Nation means a famous nineteenth century paper that is in every child's history book. To Thai readers, The Nation means their local newspaper. To British people, The Nation means an early twentieth century British publication. Other countries too think of their own local publication when the Nation. Many of the other publications have yet to be added to Wikipedia. Most of the world, when asked about the publication The Nation would ask "what publication?" because they have never heard of any. It is americocentric in the extreme to presume that a U.S. publication that is largely unheard of outside the U.S., and is not even known of by every in the U.S., should be given the page and all other meanings, which are no more widely known internationally but also no less widely known internationally than the U.S. one, should be shunted off to a side page.

   It is the equivalent of deciding that President means President of the United States, Queen means British queen, or Prime Minister means British Prime Minister, and that all other presidents, queens and prime ministers should be pushed off to side pages. It is different to The Guardian or The Times because unusually the British newspapers are internationally known and have an international recognition factor, meaning that when internationally when those names are used worldwide, most people think of them. The bottom line is simple: is something, someone or somewhere widely known internationally to the dominance of other things, places or people with the same name? If so, it should be on the primary page and the lesser known versions on a secondary subsidiary page. If however there is no one internationally known dominant usage of the name, just numerous national or local variants, then no one user of the name should be entitled to be given the primary page and the other users demoted.

   As there is no internationally known usage of the name The Nation for one specific publication, and multiple local usages and rivals for the name, to give one local version priority over the others would breach NPOV, for it would involve a ruling by Wikipedia that "this country's local newspaper is more important than that country's local newspaper". That is someone Wikipedia simply cannot do under NPOV. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 20:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

6. Support Move too generic to be a monopoly. Djegan 22:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. Support A search of Google for the-nation newspaper brings up many "the Nations" around the world before it gets to the US of A. Now it is important to stress that there is nothing anti-american in this support. The clear question is "is the claim of any one country to primacy based on genuine world-wide recognition". If so, then it should have the article with a link to a dab page for the others. If not, then it should be have a designation. So my support is based in Wiki as an international phenomenon and not the propery of one continent. --Red King 00:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   The U.S. publication isn't a newspaper, it's a magazine. A Google search for "The Nation" + magazine yields the U.S. one as the first hit. [2] Using the neutral term "publication" also gives the U.S. publication as the first hit. [3] These results don't prove that it's the primary topic per Wikipedia policy; my point is only that a search for "newspaper" is uninformative because biased against magazines. JamesMLane t c 03:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   As with JamsMLane, I don't want to claim any "google test" is definitive. But searching "link:www.nationmultimedia.com" (the Thai newspaper) gives about 3700 hits, while searching "link:www.thenation.com" (the US magazine) gives about 30k hits. Only about 500 hits point to "link:www.nation.com.pk" (the Pakistani newspaper). The 19th century Irish newspaper presumably doesn't actively maintain a website :-). But of currently published ones, the US magazine seems to be referred to online about 8x more than the others combined. For context, "link:www.nytimes.com" gives about 212k, which is probably the most widely mentioned US print publication. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 03:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

8. Support - As mentioned above, there are many The Nations. Page should be dab, with a notice. Prsgoddess187 00:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
9. Support - for many of the same reasons mentioned above.UMclassof06 05:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. Support There are a number of notable publications with this name, no one has any more right to be "the one" than any other. --Kiand 05:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
11. Support "The nation" is a generic term, and depends on which nation you are searching from (even google searchs give different results, depending on which google you use). Also agree with comment above, that it's similar to "president". It boils down to the question, "Is this paper notable enough outside the US to override local usage?" I've heard of many US papers, but never this one, so don't think so. MartinRe 11:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
12. SupportMost people on this side of the pond have never heard of the American publication of this name. No offense meant, cousions. Plus, the Irish publication played a hugely significant part in Irish life for much of its existence. Added to that is the fact that there are current a number of other publications of this name current. All of this adds up to the fact that we cannot have a bias towards a single current publication simply based on its age, readership, nor popularity in just one country. I fully understand and sympathise with the view of the opposition, but from my own point of view I cannot do other than support the motion. Thank you for hearing me. Is mise, Fergananim 17:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

1. Oppose proposed move. This is like London, a case where one meaning clearly predominates, so the article should concern that meaning, with a note at the top linking to the dab page. JamesMLane t c 05:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Oppose move. I think the inward links tell the story. The oldest newsweekly in the U.S., and no small source for Wikipedia articles. - Jmabel | Talk 07:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Oppose move as per JamesMLane. Those who are supporting the move of "The Nation" name space to a disambiguation do not know about/are purposing playing down the international content, contributors, readership, and notability synonymous with U.S. periodical. They are blindly politicizing this issue without care for Wikipedia process, and clearly only want to satisfy their own POV. --Howrealisreal 12:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4. Oppose. Looking across other publications, I don't see a precedent. Should The Guardian be likewise moved to The Guardian (U.K. newspaper)? What of The Times? I think that if we don't need these disambiguations then we shouldn't use them, unless we want to be consistent and use them for all articles. -Will Beback 12:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
5. Oppose. This is a clear case where the article should be about the most common periodical. Just take a look through here, and see what people typically mean when they link to it. (And compare that to the number of links here, here, or here.) Either way, you will have to refer to The Nation (Irish newspaper) specifically if you mean the Irish one, so it's not a slight against any other "Nations". And this isn't a debate about what the "one true Nation" is - it's about what the most common "Nation" is. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 17:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
6. Oppose move because it is a matter of primacy and practicality. London and Dublin are perfectly good examples of exactly the reason why. Look at World Trade Center as another example, there are many buildings and centers around the world with the same name. -- MicahMN | μ 18:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. Oppose move per primacy arguments above. | Klaw ¡digame! 19:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
8. Oppose move: primary disambiguation works here. Jonathunder 22:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
9. Oppose move: As I would for "The Times" etc. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. Strong Support. There was heavy opposition to de-dabbing this article on the original dab talk page, and a worrisome amount of circumstantial evidence that the original de-dabbing proposal had a political motive. --Aaron 06:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC) Changing my vote to Weak Oppose per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic. --Aaron 18:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
11. Oppose move: I can see the point about US-centric perspective. However, the link to the disambiguation page at top is prominent enough, and as some editors have argued, renaming The Nation would still require links to the Irish, Thai, or Pakistani publications to fully specify that. Moreover, the US publication is extremely widely known in the USA, and is in fact the longest continuously published magazine in the USA. All that said, I found the clincher to be looking at the "what links here" for each disambig page: although possibly some links reflect a naming error, it appears that the US publication is the most commonly linked to, far more than all the others combined. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
12. Oppose move: It's unfortunate that we have to be making these kinds of decisions, but I think in many cases it just comes down to quantifying the number of extra clicks that would be generated by the competing proposals.--Nectar 22:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
13. Oppose move: As I've already stated, I find it highly unlikely that a significant number of readers arriving here are looking for a publication that's been defunct for more than a hundred years, next to one of the more widely-read opinion journals in the world. And then there's the links -- not just those that exist, but those that will continue appearing. Amerocentrism has nothing to do with it. RadicalSubversiv E 01:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
14. Oppose move. As Lulu and others. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 16:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
15. Oppose move per Lulu. I'm against systemic bias; but I don't see why this article should move, since when most people refer to a publication called "The Nation", they're talking about this one. Rome and London don't redirect to disambig pages, even though there's a Rome in Georgia and a London in Ontario. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 23:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
16. Weak support:This came to my attention when I started in doing a disambiguation back when The Nation went to The Nation (disambiguation). It is true (this is also said above) that the majority of links which went to The Nation (disambiguation) were meant to go to The Nation (U.S. periodical). However, I found that in all the cases where this was not true (e.g. when the Irish or Thai periodical was meant) the editors of those articles seemed to not be aware of the U.S. periodical. (This makes sense, incidentally, as this periodical is not entirely well known even in the U.S.) In short, the old situation was that there were a ton of links to a disambiguation page, which is to be avoided, but in this new situation, I think we'll eventually see a ton of links to simply the wrong thing, which strikes me as worse. Moreover, a remark: although the majority of the inbound links were meant for the U.S. periodical, I think there is a systemic bias at work here. A vast majority of those were in bibliographies, where a web article from The Nation was referenced. Many (almost all?) sources in Wikipedia bibliographies are web-based, and thus we should not be surprised to see a current magazine overrepresented, especially when constrasted with a 19th century publication. But all in all, weak support in that I think the oppose position is also quite reasonable. --Deville (Talk) 04:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Oppose: Changing my vote after rereading Wikipedia:Disambiguation with a view towards this issue. --Deville (Talk) 01:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    That's not a systemic bias. Print bibliographies would also tend to cite a current publication more than one that's so long defunct, and the disparity will only grow as the U.S. magazine continues to publish. The future links created to "the wrong thing" will be small in number and will bring the reader to an article with the dab notice right at the top, so the handful of people looking for the Irish or Thai publications will get there. As an aside, I appreciate your not casting this as a holy war against American imperialism. JamesMLane t c 06:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

17. Oppose. The U.S. publication is the largest and best known of the ones still in print. If the Irish and British ones were still around, or if the Thai and Pakistani ones were of worldwide importance, I would support the move. As things are, though, I don't. Angr/talk 10:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
18. Oppose. I think we should leave The Nation article just the way it is, not just because it's easiest for users for the status quo to remain the same, but also because of the other articles entitled The Nation, this one is definitely the biggest and in actuality, of all of the periodicals entitled 'The Nation, the American is definitely the biggest. Bcem2 22:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    Irrelevant. The issue isn't size. It is international usage. It is irrelevant which of The Nations is biggest. The issue is that no one is international. It is elementary under NPOV. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

19. Oppose move. The present American magazine is the most widely known to English speakers, which are the target for this encyclopedia. What the Thai wikipedia has, or should have, under this title is another question. If the New Statesman divides into two magazines, we can reconsider. Septentrionalis 05:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's not true. See comment three below for further details. Fergananim 17:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

1. does it really matter that much to have a survey about it.--M4bwav 18:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• I don't see an explanation for the name change. There are no articles about other current periodicals named "The Nation", and so this dismbiguation seems inappropriate. I'd further guess that the U.S. "Nation" has a circulation which significantly exceeds those of the previous periodicals. In any case, the matter ought to be discussed before we commit to changing the title. Therefore, I'm going to revert the page move to the old consensus until we can decide what to do, probably in Wikipedia:Requested moves. Cheers, -Will Beback 04:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to me that the Pakistani and Thai publications are also both currently published. However, they each have mere stubs of articles that do not let me judge their significance very well. The Irish publication is no longer published. And the UK newspaper changed names some good while back. So the US publication seems to win in predominant (current) usage. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 23:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Considering the number of other Guardian articles, I definitely think it should be changed to The Guardian (U.K. newspaper). If I didn't think I'd get accused of a WP:POINT violation, I'd propose the move right now. At least The Times stands alone. --Aaron 14:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: This is a repost from the original discussion by Jtdirl. His findings and the claim that the American periodical is the One True Nation cannot both be correct. --Aaron 15:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC):[reply]

I work in the media and emailed 8 colleagues about it, asking the question "when you hear of a publication called "the Nation" what publication do you think of?

• The man in the Guardian said "Do you mean the American one? There is one in Thailand too I think, and I thought there was one in France but it closed down."
• A BBC contact asked "Which one? Do you mean the Irish one Thomas Davis launched?"
• An ITN contact said "It doesn't ring a bell. Is there some particular one you are thinking of?"
• A (London) Times colleague said he thought there was something of that name in Pakistan or India.
• Another Guardian friend didn't know of a magazine of that name.
• A CBS friend I used to work with asked whether I meant "our" one or someone else's?

• An Irish Times colleague asked "Which one? There are ten internationally, I think."

• A friend in the Irish Independent asked did I mean the old Irish newspaper.

I emailed them back to say I was asking about the US one. Four never heard of it. The rest either had but knew nothing about it, or in the case of the CBS guy said that he was surprised I had heard of it!!! So much for an internationally known name. And the people being asked work in the media!!! If they don't recognise it the odds on ordinary people visiting WP worldwide recognising it are slim. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how that has anything to do with Wikipedia. What does a biased unverifiable finding by Jtdirl have to do with this conflict resolution? Give me some time, I'll "find emails" from some people I know that back up my position as well. I don't know what is worse: that the previous comment got reprinted, or that there are actually people out there that work in the media that aren't fluent with a notable publication like The Nation. --Howrealisreal 15:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's coming a bit too close to an WP:NPA violation, IMHO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron (talk • contribs)

Sorry. To clarify, I was attacking the so-called "evidence", nothing personal. --Howrealisreal 16:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No biggie. (My apologies for not signing. I just forgot to hit the tildes.) --Aaron 16:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Jtdirl's comments are totally unverifiable, totally unbelievable (to me, at least), and therefore totally irrelevant to this discussion for the prior two reasons. | Klaw ¡digame! 19:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AGF. You can disagree, but don't accuse him of lying. --Aaron 18:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't. An accusation that he was lying would require some kind of proof on my part, and I have none. I simply don't believe what he wrote. | Klaw ¡digame! 22:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• (In response to Jtdirl's request for input on my talk page): I'm afraid my vote isn't as you wanted. Btw. the US publication is also a prominent political magazine dating from the 19th century, and referenced in history books and the like. I'm persuaded by the London example here... try going to Ontario sometime, it'll definitely throw you for a couple days :-). FWIW, no one hereabouts means the London Times when they say The Times either (they say it, normally, of the New York Times; but the disambig is handled OK on WP). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• In response to Jtdirl's requests for people to vote in this poll, the Wikipedia:Straw polls Voting etiquette section clearly states: "If you are posting on talk pages, asking experienced editors to give their opinion on an issue, make sure not to use language that may suggest bias." I think this (or any one of these [4][5][6][7]) is a perfect example of trying to persuade editors to take up his POV. For comparison, you can see how I asked Quadell to take part in this poll. --Howrealisreal 22:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll defend Jtdirl here. I found his request for my input entirely appropriate in tone. Yeah, I could tell his opinion even before I read this talk page; but he was polite and respectful, and I value the fact he thought I was an editor whose opinion was worth soliciting. And it turned out (perhaps partially because I am a former subscriber to the US magazine), I feel the US publication is the predominant usage. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course that is fair enough. I was just a bit alarmed by "some US Wikipedians have decreed that all other publications of that name must be shunted off to a disam page... the obscure disamb page (which is only found by a link at the top of the US article). It is blatently wrong." --Howrealisreal 23:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Jtdirl wrote: Irrelevant. The issue isn't size. It is international usage. It is irrelevant which of The Nations is biggest. The issue is that no one is international. It is elementary under NPOV.

(I respond): Please, please do read WP:D, Jtdirl. The issue precisely is size! Some facile pseudo-internationalist rhetoric doesn't contravene the rather sensible guidelines about most common usage. And the more discussion I see, the more clear it is that the US magazine is overwhelmingly the most common usage. Whether or not anyone outside the US reads it doesn't matter a whit if it is, indeed, the most common usage (but it is widely read outside the USA too, as it happens). For example, by way of more analogy, my Congressperson is the fairly good representative John Olver. Doing a bit of Google search, it appears there was also a John Olver who was born in 1820 in Cornwall (who doesn't now have a WP article, since he seems not to have done much besides appear in someone's geneology). I'm sure there are others too. Now in plain fact, hardly anyone outside the USA will ever care about my Congresscritter; for the most part not many people outside of Massachusetts will. Nonetheless, it would be idiotically pedantic to insist that "John Olver" must be a disambiguation page (e.g. if someone writes an article on the dead 19th C Cornwallian), and the only way to read my Congresscritter's page should be through John Olver (American politician). The one guy is the predominant usage, even if the usage isn't "international"! Or to put it in more Irish terms, if someone writes an article on Lord Mayor of Dublin Catherine Byrne, that probably takes the name, even over this moderately notable academic (if someone writes her article): [8]. But y'know what? Except the fact that I looked it up right now, not a whole lot of non-Irish people are going to care about your Catherine Byrne. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 07:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Lulu, I know where you are coming from with your concerns, and I largely share them. Yet as someone who is reasonably well-travelled worldwide and not too badly acquainted at all with the USA, I had never heard of "The Nation" (USA) till two or three years ago, at most. And when you speck of most english-specking people that is far too broad a catagory, as it is a second or third language in most countrys the world over. But it don't necessarily follow that too many of them have heard of it, let alone read it. Personally I would have voted with you had I not seen this issue from the point of view of an English specking person, who is however not English nor American, or who's first language is necessarily English. In the great scheme of things I think the way we place the article itself is less important than what we may choose to learn from these discussions. Is mise aris, Fergananim 17:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Irish provincialism. The more I examine the votes, the more this looks like strictly a matter of "Irish exceptionalism". Almost all the "rename/dab" voters seem to be Irish, and no one is sincerely arguing that the Thai or Pakistani publications are particularly widely discussed. Nor do any of the charges of alleged US-centrism really ring very true (or even sincere). Even if not one soul outside the USA read the American publication (far, far from true), it would still amount to the predominant usage; and only among a certain political stripe, strictly within Ireland, does the "special pleading" for a 150 year old discontinued newspaper deserving "equal time" make sense. And yeah, Dublin ain't only a city in Ireland, and lots of cities that ain't London, England have papers called The Times. But none of that means we should throw away WP:D out of an Irish pride.

FWIW, here's another check for you: The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 2004 Complete Home Library CD, list the American magazine as the only meaning of "The Nation", describing it as: American weekly journal of opinion, the oldest such continuously published periodical still extant. It is generally considered the leading liberal magazine of its kind. It was founded in 1865 by Edwin L. Godkin at the urging of Frederick Law Olmstead. (then another few paras). So even an encyclopedia with a more British focus finds the USAian magazine to be the predominant usage (not to say the Brits are fond of Irish nationalism, of course; but just that they ain't Americans). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lulu. In a way you prove the point; the reason so many Irish contributors voting in this manner is precisly because we were aware of our own Nation, but not so much (if at all) of the US Nation. And despite the fact it is so long out of print, it is because of the huge role it played in cultural and political life in Ireland in and indeed long after its time.

Your equating of it with citys such as Dublin, London, Rome, etc, is'nt really correct. If you type in these words on wiki, you will be brought straight away to pages on Dublin the capital of Ireland; London the capital of the UK; Rome the capital of Italy. Yet there is a disambiguation for each of these precisly because people do recognise that there are other places of that name besides the city from which they take their name (see Dublin (disambiguation), London (disambiguation), Rome (disambiguation)). Its not our fault if the Brittanicia is not up to speed on other publications of the name, nor that inhabitants of places such as Dublin, North Carolina have no idea that there is another Dublin, in Ireland, that needs no disambiguation. Its not being amero-centric, it's just not having all the facts.

But please remember that - to the best of my knowledge - not one of the Irish voters are denying the process or validity of the eventual vote. Nor have they said that they (we) will not hold by it. Our main objection is, like the Brittanica, other voters do not seem to be aware of other publications of the name which are important (for different reasons) to different peoples. And we must keep this in mind when dealing with issues like this. Otherwise what's the point of Wikipedia? Thanks for hearing me out. Fergananim 19:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Question: Is there any guideline or policy in place stating that a given article with an overwhelming number of inbound links should be given primacy? If there is, I'll change my vote. --Aaron 20:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the number of inbound links is one factor mentioned in the current guideline. It doesn't need to be "overwhelming", simply a "majority", but it's not by itself dispositive. The guideline reads:

When the primary meaning for a term or phrase is well known (indicated by a majority of links in existing articles, and by consensus of the editors of those articles), then use that topic for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top.

See Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic. I didn't know about this reference until your question prompted me to look for it. I was just using the links as one common-sense (and relatively objective) indication of how most Wikipedia editors (and therefore readers) use the term. JamesMLane t c 23:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the information, James. I've changed my vote above to Weak oppose; I think WP:D overrules the US-centric argument. --Aaron 18:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

History of the dispute

The article The Nation was created in June 2003 about the U.S. periodical. It stayed there, without objection from anyone, until November 2005, when one editor moved it -- a move that met with immediate objection. It's potentially confusing to refer to "de-dabbing" as if it were an assault on the status quo ante. The supposed "de-dabbing" was a restoration of the situation that had existed for more than two years, namely that the undisambiguated name is (like London or Dublin) used for the most common meaning of the term. To clarify, no one objects to keeping the dab page. No one objects to keeping the link to that page at the top of the article. JamesMLane t c 07:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify my above clarification, I'm not arguing that the earliest article should "win". I referred to the history simply to counter any false impression that might have arisen from the term "de-dabbing". The criterion I actually support is not the age of an article, or its literary elegance, but service to the readers. Most readers who type "The Nation" into the search box will be looking for the U.S. periodical. We should accommodate them. JamesMLane t c 14:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No they won't. Most Americans will. There is a difference. Most British users who are aware of the name will mean their publication. Most Irish users will mean their historic newspapers. Many in Asia will think of the various publications in the region called The Nation. Political scientists will think the page means the political science term. Constitutional experts will look for the constitutional term. Don't presume that America = the world, and the what suits American users trumps the rest of the planet. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 01:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The American published magazine is rather well read outside of the US too; it's not particularly provincial. But in any case, even if most of those "most readers" indeed are American, so what? Based on the google evidence above, the Thai newspaper just isn't as widely referred to (maybe in part because it's English-language, and the more popular Thai newspapers aren't). It's starting to feel, Jtdirl, that you're seeing some sort of American imperialism where it really isn't the issue (I agree it is in other contexts, as you know). In a way, it almost seems like you wish for a certain Irish provincialism, feeling some slight to the Irish newspaper (which is still hardly hidden or deleted as a WP entry; but really is not currently published, nor in the last century). WP:D really does push for the current setup... just like hardly anyone in Ontario means England when they say London, and hardly anyone in the US north-east means Murdoch's house organ when they say The Times... nonetheless, playing the odds, more readers worldwide benefit from what those link to than they would be going through a disambuation page. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Our goal should be to serve the interests of as many of our readers as possible. Each reader is entitled to equal consideration. I reject the presumptions criticized by Jtdirl because I don't believe that an American reader's interests are more important than a non-American reader's interests. On the other hand, I also don't believe that an American reader's interests are less important. If ten people are looking for Meaning A, while Meanings B, C, and D are each sought by two other people, then Meaning A is primary, even if all ten of its adherents are Americans and the six people looking for other meanings are from six different countries. JamesMLane t c 06:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• JA: To report a power outage, press 1. To ask a question about your bill, press 2. ... I'm guessing that our readers are now sufficiently sophisticated to handel a branch. Oops! I almost forgot the pound sign. Just call me: Jon-de-texts-those-who-fall-off-the-coracle.

You seem to be not so able to handle linking to the appropriate articles. Let's keep this civil please. --Howrealisreal 15:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• JA: Civil is an orange ... Jon D'Ark

Just as someone trying to manage a watchlist, may I mention how dizzying and, yes, annoying it is to see a page get renamed over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over again? And every rename is another operation the system has to perform before it can move the user to the actual page, even if it's just sending A->B->A->B->... 320 times before getting back to A. Good thing systems today are fast, but there's a limit yes? Anyway: Please, discuss it- don't just do it, come to a consensus, then do it or don't - and then get back to something like, I dunno, making changes in the actual article. Thanks. Schissel-nonLop! 02:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would everybody who in future comments here please read Schissel's paragraph, and take it on board? Thanks.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.