Malke has been in touch - User_talk:SilkTork#Moderator. We can start. I suggest we create a subpage in which to hold the discussions. It can be linked and/or transcluded on this page. I know there has been friction and frustration, but in order to move the discussions forward there should be no personal comments. Allow me to hat any personal comments that creep in. It would be better if I, or another uninvolved person, did that; and if, while waiting for the comment to be hatted, people did not respond, even if the comment sits there for a while. Something I have found useful, is when annoyed, type out what you want to say - but don't post it; edit it down to something polite, then discard it. It gets it out of your system, but doesn't upset anyone.

If there's no objections I will start a subpage sometime tomorrow, and on that we can briefly discuss and lay out the main issues, and consider if the article needs trimming, and if so, the best way of doing that. There was a suggestion recently of creating split-off articles. We could also consider that. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:44, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello SilkTork. I think that it is important to acknowledge that the underlying cause here is conflicting goals, not personal chemistry. (Although good chemistry would make a lot of other things go better). I think that it must also be acknowledged that if an article has been pulled to one "side" that the objectives on that one "side" are to maintain the status quo, while the immediate objectives of the other "side" are to pull it towards neutral. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like a clarification about the "personal comments" restriction. In some cases, a particular edit may strike me as absurd (in some cases, to the point where I do not see how any competent person could see it as appropriate), regardless of the identity of the editor. Since we will be talking about the future of the article, rather than the past edits, this shouldn't come up, but, I'd like clarification. I would avoid commenting that a particular editor is taking inappropriate actions, but it may be necessary to indicate a particular edit is absurd. Any ideas? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Anything judgemental not factual is probably a mistake here. I would say why you thought it was absurd, avoiding sarcasm and irony. Ive had irony taken as consent for absurdity before now. ----Snowded ^TALK 10:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Arthur, comment on the edit rather than the editor. And yes, Snowded, it is helpful to explain one's thinking. I would hope, however, at this stage, that we would be considering broad issues, and getting consensus for actions rather than dealing with individual edits or smaller points. Once the broad issues are agreed, folks here can deal with the fine tuning, and I would think at that stage my role would be over. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks SilkTork, for setting this up and serving as our moderator. It will generally be a difficult, time-consuming and thankless task, but I hope we can resolve some issues and improve the article. Individual edits concerning use of the terms "grass-roots" and "anti-immigration" to generally describe TPm (installing the first term in the lede and removing the second term from the "Agenda" section) have been very contentious, and devoured a great deal of editor time and Talk page space. Most troublesome to me is the apparent lack of any real progress regarding these two edits, which I consider to be self-evident, based on the number of reliable sources which actually support these terms per WP:WEIGHT. Somebody with authority needs to be able to step up and say, "We have consensus for this," or "There's no consensus for that, and I doubt there ever will be." Are you that person of authority? If so, would you review the article Talk page and try to make these determinations? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Establishing broad issues

This is just a suggestion, but it might be a good idea for editors to briefly name an issue they feel needs addressing, like 'article length,' etc. Just list something and sign your name. Then once we have a list, we could sort it and decide which issues seem most important, as I imagine that would be respectful of Silk Tork's time here. Then we could work our way through the revised list. If editors agree, then simply name an issue below and sign your name. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Article organization. It should be laid out like the other articles about political movements. All commentary, particularly by persons, publications or entities that can reasonably be construed to be politically opposed to the Tea Party, should be near the end of the article if it gets into the article at all. After all, if we allow politicians and political organizations to be defined by their opponents, there would be a certain biography starting with the words, "Barack Obama is a socialist born in Kenya ..." To control the length of the article, we create sub-articles with links such as Allegations of bigotry in the Tea Party movement. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The TPm is not a political party, and I strongly disagree with your suggestion that criticism of any portion be relegated to the end of the article.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Compare Take a look at Wikipedia's articles describing the Occupy movement, or Organizing for Action, which are not political parties. Where's the criticism and commentary from persons outside the organization? In the final 1/4 of the article. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The organizations/movements are not the same, nor is the scope of the material covered in the articles. There is no Wikipedia policy that mandates the comparing articles deemed to be peers based on some extraneous political criteria in order define how the respective articles are to be written, which again, is based on what RS have to say and policy.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 07:11, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, they're not the same. But they should be treated in a consistent manner at Wikipedia. Consistency = NPOV. We can't have all articles about progressive organizations and movements with a tiny, cramped section of conservative criticism at the end, and all articles about conservative movements with progressive criticism splattered all over them like birdshot. Try to be objective, and just look at a random sample of articles about both conservative and progressive organizations at Wikipedia. That's what we've got. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that the Occupy movement and the Tea Party movement are not the same, but criticisms by political enemies, of either movement, should be trimmed and isolated. I'm not sure about criticism of methods by those who agree with the (apparent) goals, but I tend to believe it should be given the same treatment. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

P&W, I would say that insofar as consistency is relevant to NPOV, it would have to be consistency with RS, not on the basis of what a given editor defines in terms of attribute matching as equivalents in some extraneous categorization schema.

I would venture to say that there are more reasons to be critical of the TPm than Occupy, for example, which resonated with people in countries throughout the world in the wake of the finance crisis. Such reasons seem to generally relate to a perception on the part of observes from various backgrounds that the TPm includes constituents that are advocating for private interests from behind a facade of patriotism and American values, whereas Occupy and the other group that has been mentioned are involved in advocating for well-defined causes that are more narrow in scope and readily intelligible to the general public.

There's very little for political opponents to expose when causes are out in the open and plain to see. You either agree or disagree with the cause, and can debate its merits but not its status as that for which advocacy has been undertaken. On the other hand, where people feel a facade has been erected to project a public image aimed to deceive while pursuing ulterior motives, then there will be efforts to expose the facade as well as the actual causes that are being advanced from behind the facade. This is where the AstroTurf question comes in with respect to the TPm.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 00:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ubikwit, there's a lot to criticize about the Occupy movement but much of it just doesn't seem to find its way into the article: [4][5][6] Raping a student who is developmentally disabled. Dozens of other cases of sexual assault. Repeatedly masturbating in front of children. Multiple incidents of violence against police, including one officer who was allegedly stabbed. Anti-Semitic overtones. Chronic thefts, including expensive personal electronic items. Most disturbing, an effort to keep reports of sexual assault away from police, so that the Occupy community could handle the sexual assault reports internally. And an enormous number of the usual complaints, heard whenever there's a large mass of people like this gathering for extended periods, about urinating and defecating in public spaces and on private property.

Just in case you think it's the corporate media or evil conservatives making up a pack of lies about the Occupy movement, here's a couple of reports from within the Occupy movement itself about sexual assaults and some of the other issues I've mentioned: [7][8] Here's another from the very progressive Feminist Wire, describing an "Occupy rape culture": [9]

In the Tea Party movement article, we see a laundry list of every incident that could possibly be construed as bigoted in any way. But members of the Occupy movement are alleged to have committed a multitude of genuine felonies — VIOLENT felonies — and where's the laundry list in that article? There's just two sentences about them, and those two sentences are split up and "buried."

I would venture to say that there are more reasons to be critical of the TPm than Occupy, for example ... Are you kidding me, Ubikwit? The two movements need to be treated the same: objectively, consistently, and NPOV. None of the reliable, neutral sources claim that the TPm or organizations within it are Astroturfing, despite misrepresentations by some editors to the contrary. Give up on that. And we should also be talking about a reduction of the "bigotry laundry list" in the TPm article to the buried single sentence treatment we see in the Occupy movement article. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

P&W, you have raised some valid criticism of Occupy, assuming that they are attested to to in RS. I would suggest that you edit that article, and engage in appropriate dispute resolution processes if the sources are challenged, etc.

The fact remains, however, that the movements are vastly different, and the both movements need to be treated in accordance with the respective body of RS that is created in relation to them. In the case of the TPm, the breadth and depth of the types of criticism emanating from a wide variety of sources testifies to the fact that there is more material in its scope that is subject to critical evaluation. Moreover, there are already several studies published in academic sources by professors, legal scholars and researchers. I don't believe that you've pointed to a single such reference with respect to Occupy--not that there might not be such sources forthcoming.

It is not permissible under WP:DUE to try and exclude coverage of the RS relating to an article because the article in question is deemed to be about a topic that has an oppositional counterpart. NPOV with respect to RS, as determined by WP:DUE and WP:WEIGHT are the policies at issue, primarily. Furthermore, with respect to the TPm, primary sources are of limited applicability, so you need to find more secondary sources if you want to counter statements made in RS, especially those published by academic presses.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 05:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to exclude coverage of any reliable sources, Ubikwit. I'm only trying to give them the WP:WEIGHT they're due. Majority opinions, such as "grass-roots" and "opposed to illegal immigration" should be stated in Wikipedia's voice in the first 10% of the article, and expanded upon in the heart of the article. Minority opinions, such as "Astroturf" and "anti-immigration," should be stated in the final 1/4 of the article, and carefully attributed to the tiny handful of people who are making the claims. "The breadth and depth of the criticism" is almost entirely coming from partisan sources that are opposed, like Rachel Maddow, Nancy Pelosi and The Huffington Post. And as I said on the main Talk page, I categorically ignore the "go and edit some other article" defense. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Hot button words. Certain terms, such as "grass-roots" and "anti-immigration," have proven to be very controversial. They trigger edit wars, reams and reams of text on the article Talk page, and ultimately a lot of frustration and anger. Let's find a way to short circuit all the frustration and anger. I propose a procedure to be limited to this moderated discussion. All participants are asked to sign on below. The procedure is this: an editor seeking to introduce or change a particular descriptive word proposes the edit in a new section on this page. All editors active on this page have seven days to Support or Oppose the edit, and present policy-based arguments supporting their positions. At the end of the seven days, SilkTork determines whether there is consensus one way or the other, and announces that finding at the end of the section.

• Support. It's relatively fast, and it has finality and certainty. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• We should establish that the highest priority objective is to make this article informative. Endless effort/ battles/ on trying to fight/wiki-lawyer in swipes or praise should be recognized as contrary to that. 02:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.248.152 (talk)

• Reduce content The article should provide a good overview of the Tea Party movement and not stay mired in excessive details. Perhaps merge 2010/2012 elections with another article like List of Tea Party politicians. Merge anything that deals with protests over to Tea Party protests. If it's something that happened at a protest, it really belongs in that article. Nothing should be duplicated here in this article, which is a bit long to begin with. Malke 2010 (talk) 03:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment What do you mean by "not stay mired in excessive details"? This is an encyclopedia and should provide as much detailed content in covering the topic as appropriate according to the reliable sources and policy.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Framing of the article The article currently is disjointed, and uninformative.

(Personal attack removed)

The article should be organized more on topical issues as addressed in secondary sources, not primary source material by TPm activists or leaders.

The Agenda section is the prime example of the problem. Whereas secondary sources addressing topical issues related to the TPm focus on issues such as the constitution and immigration, the Agenda section is taken up almost entirely by the "Contract from America", which is basically a document that has been used in an effort to recruit people, including politicians to the TPm. The Tea Party Patriots are the only group apparently involved in the largely failed effort to have the platform adopted (it lists a total of four legislators from 2010!). In other words, the Contract from America is given undue prominence, even though it is for all intents and purposes obsolete, having been eclipsed by the Republican "Pledge to america", etc.; moreover, there is not a single secondary source discussing it. Seeing as it has its own article, perhaps it should be substantially trimmed down in accordance with WP:UNDUE, and secondary sources introduced.

With respect to immigration, an argument has been put forth that immigration reform is now the current issue. If such shifting of the time frames is permissible there, then the Contract for America should be considered to be something of a dated document, and the content of the issues in it that are still current addressed.

It is still may be necessary to trace the development of some positions where the transitions between past stances and the current stance are relevant.

The domestic issues having the greatest import include:

1. The constitution
2. Taxation
3. Immigration
4. The role/size of the government

Considering that the TPm is almost entirely restricted to the USA, it is very strange that the Agenda section obscures the domestic issues that could be considered as primary motivators for the grass-roots participants, relegating them to blurbs, yet prominently features foreign policy. That belies a total lack of balance in the Agenda section. And the "Tea Party Caucus" is defunct, so why was it described in terms that make it seem current and viable with respect to foreign policy?

There must have been substantial criticism of the contract when it came out, in light of controversial contents, such as items 2 and 10 on the list. Why is there absolutely no input from secondary sources? There is some criticism and analysis reltated to the foreign policy pronouncements. Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 05:37, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Reduce the trivia and marginally germane material Most items should be about the TPM movement at a regional or national scale. North8000 (talk) 17:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment It seems to me that this represents another attempt to artificially constrain the scope of the article in a manner that is not in conformance with policy. There is, incidentally, WP:HTRIV, but the qualification that "Most items should be about the TPM movement at a regional or national scale" does not seem to be included in that policy. The operative phrase in that policy is

  ...trivia is information that is not important to the subject it is being presented in relation to.

The encyclopedic article we are drafting should not be a simple chronicle of the exploits of the TPm, but comprehensive in scope, including the full compliment of analysis and criticism found in reliable secondary sources, in paricular.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 18:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've not talking about criticism, I'm talking about trivia, which the article is loaded with. North8000 (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, let's address it on a case-by-case basis. The article certainly is disjointed, so there may be some information that might make more sense if better integrated, and I wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be some trivia, too. Maybe that would fall into place if the article were framed in a more coherent manner, making the clean up easier.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 19:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• trim, specifically criticism like much of the the section On issues of race, bigotry and public perception. the tea party is multicultural (the % is irrelevant, everyone is welcome and represented [10], [11]) I also question the benefit of the section Obama's thoughts. the section on polling from 2010 does little to explain what the movement is about, rather backs up claims already made above such as the tp is a minority not liked by the majority. this is the second of 2 sections devoted to polling, which i question if either really fit. polls are easily manipulated and the very lowest rung of what is considered a rs. wp is not a democracy, neither is the usa, a quasi-democratic poll of a tiny minority is perhaps not the best sources we have available for the message intended to convey Darkstar1st (talk) 08:42, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Trim Definitely, per recommendations by Darkstar and North8000. Too much trivia. Plenty of opportunity for sub-articles here. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Trim, per recommendations by Darkstar and North8000. However, I disagree with some of the Framing of this framing section; reliable sources commenting on the stated agenda of TPm organizations should be preferred to politically opposed, but still reliable, sources commenting on the "actual" agenda as those sources see it. "Reliable sources" which are sufficiently biased can only be used for clearly factual material (e.g., a stated agenda), not for interpretation or opinion. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not clear as to some of the terminology and phrases used above. What do you mean by "commenting on the stated agenda", for example, and how does that differ from "the actual" agenda?

I would suggest that there are several types of commentary, some which are topical analysis carried out considering the historical context, etc., and some are critical, attempting to expose aspects that the constituents of the movement may seek to portray themselves as standing for when in fact others see something else in the actions, etc., of the movement that contradicts the official stance.

It would not be in accord with WP:DUE (or WP:NPOV) to exclude analysis of any part of the TPm "stated agenda" set forth in secondary sources. as for criticism, I think there could be a separate section for critical commentary that is more contestable than straightforward analysis.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm saying is that biased (normally) biased reliable sources talking about the TPm's "agenda" should be disregarded except as in it reports on the TPm's stated agenda. Those sources' opinions on the TPm's "actual" agenda would be seriously biased, and cannot possibly be part of the article, except under a "media" section. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right Arthur, and that has been the problem with the article from the beginning. Now even the 'origins' section about the early protests has been prefaced with the opinions of those who want to support the new claim that big tobacco started the movement. Prefacing everything they do and say with a counterclaim first, is the same as if every time the president were about to give a speech, someone got up before him and said, "Here's everything he's going to say, and here's why you shouldn't believe him." Malke 2010 (talk) 17:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Two followup points:

1) How would you distinguish between "biased" "and critical"

2) Where would you suggest that the content of academic sources (i.e., not mass-media sources) that you consider to be biased but reliable be included?Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 00:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1) It's a problem. I think we can all agree that a self-described liberal would be biased against the TPm. One could argue that anyone who takes a stance which the TPm generally (I know it's a weasel-word) opposes would be considered biased, but it's possible that some such correspondents could act in an unbiased manner.

The liberal and conservative opposition is valid, but that doesn't stop both Fox News and the Huffington Post from being RS.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 05:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't stop Fox News and the Huffington Post from generally being RS, but we cannot accept opinions or "conclusions" from clearly biased sources. Some sources can be reliable for (verifiable) facts, some for interpretations, and some for commentary. In this case, Fox News and the Huffington Post are reliable for facts, but not for interpretations or conclusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs)

2) Probably still media. We might put it in the "agenda" section with a cavaet, such as "Tobacco Control asserts that the TPm's goals were to deregulate tobacco." (If they actually said that, which I doubt.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:51, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Peer-reviewed journals and scholarly studies published by academic presses are not mass media; in fact, the are that in contradistinction to which the term "mass" of the compound noun "mass media" has been adopted. Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 05:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Peer-reviewed journals are not "mass media", but they are still not necessarily reliable for interpretation, if sufficiently biased (which Tobacco Control is). Tobacco Control is not presently used for the agenda of the TPm; if it were, it also could only be used for demonstrable facts, not interpretations or conclusions. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the Tobacco control article would fit best in a Criticism section in relation to AstroTurf. The Criticism section might be divided into Scholarly and Mass Media sections, for example. The connections detailed in that paper relate primarily to organizations that pre-date the appearance of the TPm, and most of the information analyzed in the study is from that period, too. So I think that the tobacco excise tax issue is basically subsumed under the general taxation agenda as proclaimed by the TPm, and I'm not aware that it has been proclaimed as an agenda item since the TPm started articulating an agenda.

On the other hand, the studies by legal scholars relating to the stances on the constitution that have been articulated by various TPm activists and leaders are illuminating for their objective analysis against the backdrop of the historical development of theories of interpretation and application of the constitution. Informative sources such as those should be integrated into the main body of the article.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 07:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Much as I would like to include scholarly studies of the agenda as it relates to the Constitution, most are hopelessly biased. If you would suggest a specific study, I would give my opinion as to whether it's an RS for analysis. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Any and all of these, for example:

1. Schmidt, Christopher W., The Tea Party and the Constitution (March 18, 2011). 39 Hastings Constitutional Law Quarterly 193 (2011); Chicago-Kent College of Law Research Paper, p. 194 (2011)
2. Rebecca E. Zietlow, Popular Originalism? The Tea Party Movement and Constitutional Theory, 64 Fla. L. Rev., p. 483 (2012)
3. Foley, Elizabeth Price , Sovereignty, Rebalanced: The Tea Party and Constitutional Amendments (August 3, 2011). Tennessee Law Review, Vol. 78, p. 751, 2011Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 09:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They all cover what might be a position (not necessary, part of an "agenda") taken by some factions within the TPm. Probably includable with that phrasing, with two adjustments:

My might be depends on the precise wording of the paper; it should be noted that abstracts represent the position of the author(s), not necessarily vetted by the journal. It's been known to happen that abstracts take the exact opposite position to that supported by the paper.

Law review journals include student papers, which should be considered to have less reliability than those presented by established professionals.

I haven't read even the ones available for download in full, but the third one seems to refer to a movement which the TPm is associated with, rather than one which is actually part of the TPm. If that's the case, it's only usable to support that the TPm associates with the named movement, rather that that the named movement is part of the "agenda" of the TPm. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm not sure how you are distinguishing between a position and an agenda in this context. There is the general problem of clarifying agenda items that most TPm activists support, but it would seem that the proclamations related to constitutional amendments are fairly widely reported and studied.

If you don't have time to read the sources, there's little to discuss.

Regarding the third source, I'm not sure to which associated movement you are referring, but the so-called Repeal amendment is more widely discussed than the so-called Federalism amendment, which I gather was drafted in repose to the onset of the TPm by a libertarian law professor. It is true that the third paper does not discuss the TPm in depth in the same manner that the other two papers do, so I haven't used it except for citing facts, namely this passage<

Tea Party opposition to bailouts, stimulus packages and health-care

reform is reflected in various proposals to amend the Constitution, including proposals to require a balanced budget, repeal the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Amendments, and give states a veto power over federal laws

(the so-called Repeal Amendment).

Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:35, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've now read those for which the actual article is available, and there's no "there" there. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 11:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just correcting one point, "clarifying agenda items that most TPm activists support" is not enough to make it germane, it would need to be in some TPM context. As a whimsical but useful illustrations, if a poll found that most TPM supporters preferred dogs over cats, that does not weigh towards considering dogs to be a TPM agenda item. The more realistic areas are social conservatism/liberalism issues, where the libertarians and conservatives within the TPM have conflicting views, which the agenda has mostly stayed away from. North8000 (talk) 12:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Trim, per Darkstar, North8000. Also, agree with Arthur on the TP groups stating their agenda. The agenda should be brief but include mention of fiscal goals, opposition to Obamacare, opposition to U.N. Agenda 21, pro-immigration reform, and amnesty with secure borders. And 'get out the vote,' and mention the super PAC. Malke 2010 (talk) 02:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment First, that sounds like a proposal to populate the Agenda section with exclusively primary source material, while excluding analysis of the policy positions set forth as points in the agenda. Primary sources are not used indiscriminately on Wikipedia to promote a certain image a given entity seeks to project of itself. Thepolicy is WP:PRIMARY, which states

  Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them.

See my comments under Arthur's post regarding WP:DUE, etc.

It also seems like you are proposing items that are clearly not part of the agenda under the Agenda section, such as the super PAC, for example, which would seem to belong under the Organization section. The same probably holds true for the "get out the vote" stuff. Participating in electoral politics is a means to effect the agenda, but I'm not sure it can be categorized as an agenda point in and of itself unless it were taking aim at voter apathy, for example.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that some of those are not part of the agenda, but strongly disagree about what a reliable source for the agenda might be. WP:PRIMARY suggests that we should use secondary sources which talk about the primary sources, not those which speculate on the "true meaning" of those sources. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 11:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, the first order of business should be to decide what the article is actually about. The sources so far presented do not indicate that the TPM is a single identifiable organism at all -- in fact dealing with its very disparate nature is one of the problems the current article has. It does not appear to be monolithic, nor to require that its "members" hold particular views, nor that the views of many subset of its members then become the views of the group as a whole in the sources presented so far. Thus I would suggest that we have sections showing historical use of the term "tea party", the history of some of the identifiable organizations using the term "tea party", the nature of the most prominent groups forming the TPM, and the "mathematical intersection" of the beliefs espoused by all of those groups, not just any belief expressed by a single segment of such groups. And we must consider the article as a whole (WP:PIECE) as the curent melange looks like a horse desgned by a committee <g>. Collect (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One way to help achieve success is to identify the most likely forms of failure and then try to avoid them. The most likely failure of the process is when the people who are trying to fix the article get ground down and give up and mostly go away. ("mostly go away" = only sporadically comment rather than make real efforts.) Unfortunately, I think that that is starting to happen. Then the article would end up being determined by the few "persistent" folks. That has been its history; we should work to avoid that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:22, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point, and why I wish to involve all the main contributors in a consensus decision. If some people do not get involved in a decision to remove some content, but come back to edit in a months time and reinstate thst content, then this effort has been for nothing. However, we are all volunteers on this project, so people cannot be made to do anything. On the other hand, people can be sanctioned for doing something against consensus, so it might be useful to have strong sanctions in place, such as ArbCom DS. Anyway, the contributors tool is back working - so I will shortly contact everyone. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 07:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unless there is focus on completing one task at a time, then no matters will get resolved. I understand there is concern about sourcing, and that it would be helpful to have a discussion regarding sourcing. However, the main problem that has been identified is the size of the article, and a start has been made on discussing what to trim. I am hatting the sourcing discussion until the trimming matter has been resolved. I would ask that until one matter has been resolved, that no other matters are raised. The main talkpage is still open, and people can discuss other matters there if they wish, in preparation for bringing them here. But I am unwilling to moderate several discussions at the same time. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 07:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hatting for now as per my comment above. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 07:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hatting for now, per my comments above. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 07:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the above comments it appears there is broad agreement that the article needs trimming, though some are concerned that too much or the wrong sort of stuff will be trimmed, such as the criticism section.

Can we discuss what people feel should be trimmed, and what should be done with the trimmed material - create sub-articles or remove it completely? And I stress again, we are discussing broad strokes, not individual words or sentences. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just locked the article as there is a slow moving edit war going on. I have locked it in the version it was in when I went there - that it is locked in that version doesn't imply any support of that version. Whatever version an article is locked in during a dispute, is always The Wrong Version! When an article is locked nobody, not even an admin, can edit the article without first gaining consensus for the edit, unless it is to correct minor and obvious errors or to do simple maintenance. We will discuss edits here on this page, and I will action the edits for which there is consensus. When there is broad agreement that the article has been trimmed satisfactorily, it will be unlocked. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that almost all of the election related material is obsolete, and therefore, perhaps somewhat trivial at present. The 2010 and 2012 election sections, and the entirety of the "Ground game and Get Out The Vote (GOTV) efforts" section seem superfluous to me.

Perhaps the issue of immigration should be incorporated under the current section "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception".

Aside from election related reporting-style content (chronicle of results, etc.) and random media noise, there is a growing body of high-level academic secondary sources providing much needed analysis of the sort of which the article is sorely lacking, in my opinion. Media coverage should be better integrated with analysis where possible, in an effort to present the topic in a more encyclopedic manner.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:35, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

disagree, the election material is relevant as several primary challengers defeated establishment gop incumbents. Darkstar1st (talk) 9:00 pm, Today (UTC+1)

Would it be possible/acceptable to summarise the main points of the elections, such as "several primary challengers defeated establishment gop incumbents" rather than list all the incidents? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support A brief summary of the significance of the election results to the movement as a whole should be described on the main page, and a sub-page (or multiple sub-pages) on the details of candidates, campaigns, etc., would serve to remove excessive information in the article that is peripheral to describing the movement as such. Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 01:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support, main point being about the TP challenging the establishment gop. Darkstar1st (talk) 02:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Tea_Party_movement#2010_election section. Trim or create sub-article? What material to remove? Keep the lead paragraphs, but remove the bullet points? Is there material in the bullet points worth keeping as a brief summary of the 2010 election. Can the whole section be reduced to one or two sentences? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Trim and create sub-article. The 2010 election cycle was the first and most powerful showing by TPm. It reduced Nancy Pelosi from Speaker of the House to Minority Leader. There were more seats lost in the House by the party controlling the White House than in any election since the Great Depression. Even Ted Kennedy's Senate seat was lost. It was an unmitigated disaster for Obama and the Democrats, and TPm was the bulldozer pushing that event to happen. It deserves an entire article of its own, but it also deserves two paragraphs here. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Trim and create sub-article. Malke 2010 (talk) 23:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Tea_Party_movement#2012_election section. As above. Trim or create sub-article? What to keep. Can it be summarised in one or two sentences. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Trim and create sub-article. In the 2012 election, the TPm failed to remove Barack Obama (although the main reason may have been lukewarm TPm attitudes about Mitt Romney) and lost a few of the congressional seats it had gained in 2010. Some really stupid and insensitive statements by a pair of TPm Senate candidates prevented them from taking the Senate. But despite these key losses, the Tea Party survived a fierce counteroffensive by progressive organizations. It deserves an entire article of its own, but it also deserves two paragraphs here. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Trim and create sub-article. Malke 2010 (talk) 23:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Tea_Party_movement#Ground_game_and_Get_Out_The_Vote_.28GOTV.29_efforts section. Trim? What to keep if it is trimmed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Trim and move to Agenda section. This is an important aspect of the movement's growth from protests to lobbying congress to getting out the vote. One national group also has created a super PAC. Malke 2010 (talk) 23:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose move to Agenda section This section appears to have absolutely nothing to do with the agenda of the protests. It relates strictly to a strategic shift to campaigning from protesting, and the tactical aspects of implementing the campaigning. It is completely unrelated to platform points, etc. It's about converting protest momentum into election results, not about the ideological basis of the protests. All of the election stuff should probably be integrated into a single article organized along chronological lines, paralleling the current presentation of the material, reflecting in the presentation of the article the changes that occurred over time Its scope on the main article page can be greatly reduced.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 23:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a quote from an article by Zernike in the NYT Shaping Tea Party Passion Into Campaign Force that probably expresses the gist of the matter.

“This movement, if we can turn out hundreds or thousands to the streets to protest and wave signs and yell and make an impact on public policy debate, then we can make a lot of difference,” Brendan Steinhauser, FreedomWorks’s chief organizer for the Tea Party groups, told the leaders gathered here. “But if those same people go and walk neighborhoods and do all the things we’re talking about, put up the door-hangers in the final 72 hours and make the phone calls, we may crush some of these guys.”

Strictly speaking, the TPm agenda is comprised of the stances that they have proclaimed in relation to "public policy".Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 00:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the best criteria for material is that it that it be informative about the TPM. I think that if we follow a fleshed out version of that sentence it would be a good guide to almost every area of this article. A few thoughts about "fleshing out" that statement or the effects of such:

• We recognize that the TPM is not an entity, it is a phenomena consisting of hundreds of organizations, activities, events, actions, happenings. So any thing that is informative about the TPM needs to be dealing with it on a larger scale, or high-impact happenings.
• To be about the TPM, it needs to be 'about the TPM. If a local TP'er farted in public, and some papers hostile to the TPM decided to maximize coverage of the fart, that does not aromatically automatically make the fart germane to or suitable for or useful for the top level TPM article. We need to have discussions about what is useful and information to include.
• Criticism should be of the informative type, not just talking points of / swipes by opponents.
• A movement is defined by it's agenda, and defines it's agenda. That's how it pursue it. If an opponent newspaper writer says that the agenda of the US Democratic party is to be hostile to business and drive non-government US jobs overseas, that does not mean that that is their agenda. Top level stuff (e.g. their platform etc.) defines their agenda. The same for the TPM, even though it is much moroe decentralized.

North8000 (talk) 14:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most of this is reasonable but, it should be noted that we should let coverage in reliable sources decide whose public farts are relevant to the TPM and which arent. Similarly we should never restrict descriptions of agenda to the the TPMs own statements about it, and we also wouldnt do that to the democratic party, or anyother group. That would be disinformative. Their agenda is defined by how it is described in reliable sources. Their own publications is one such source, but not the only one. And exactly because it is a decentralized movement their agenda may include the view points espoused publicly by their most prominent members whether or not they are articulated in their official agenda.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's some useful and positive discussion taking place here, though it would be helpful if more people were involved so a true consensus can be formed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:38, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reluctant to take any actions on the article without a broader consensus. Contributors are not compelled to take part in this discussion, though it would be helpful. I will leave a message for each of the main contributors. I will leave a standard message, and leave it for each, regardless of if they have already contributed here. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The contributors tool is currently down, so - rather than attempt manually to work out who the main contributors are on a busy article - I'll wait until the tool is up and running. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 19:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

is there anyway everyone can yield a tiny amount in hopes of making some progress? i sincerely think all of us will be happier with the final result. we seemed to be making progress timing the election sections which would be considered positive material. so if we can agree to do that much, perhaps the next section we trim will be some of the negative material. SilkTork came here ready to help and we can't accept the help without all of us making some minor concessions.(no edit is permanent and almost anything would be better than what we have now)Darkstar1st (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking only for myself, I consider moving most of the election material to subarticles an improvement (remembering to retain duplicate references which would otherwise be lost.) However, most of the material should be moved to subarticles or to the bit bucket. I think we need to wait to consider an action as having consensus, if, in addition to the normal requirements, at least one party on each "side" must agree. I still don't think I'm really on a "side"; almost all of the negative material, and most of the postive material, doesn't belong here. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:58, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. There would appear to be some consensus (although a limited number of editors have participated) to create subarticles for the 2010 and 2012 elections. I would propose a single subarticle comprehensively covering elections and electioneering.
2. There are a couple of outstanding issues regarding the treatment of PACs and "Get out the vote". Get out the vote would seem to be part of electioneering to me, and could be incorporated in the elections related article under and "Electioneering " section. I think that PACs should fall under the "Organization" section.
3. Not much progress has been made on whether the question of immigration and xenophobia can be integrated with the "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception" section, or anew section created under which all of those topics are addressed. Immigration reform is still pending, and there may be people that feel it merits a separate section, but the question of xenophobia would seem pertinent to both. That could wait, but the election related material should be moved to subarticles and the gist relevant to the main article summarized, etc.
4. It has dawned on me that if we were to use the Skopol "tripartite" quote in the lead, maybe putting astroturfing in parenthesis, we could incorporate the content of the current "Composition" and "Media coverage" sections into respective subsections under "Organization" corresponding to the tripartite (i.e., grassroots activists/groups, astroturfed groups/wealthy individuals/corporate interests, and conservative media outlets). It seems that some of the polling information from 2010, such as this

   An October 2010 Washington Post canvass of 647 local Tea Party organizers asked "which national figure best represents your groups?" and got the following responses: no one 34%, Sarah Palin 14%, Glenn Beck 7%, Jim DeMint 6%, Ron Paul 6%, Michele Bachmann 4%

   is dated and belongs with the election information from the corresponding years. The survey results for Glen Beck might be notable under a "Conservative media outlets" subsection (on Fox News at the time, I believe) of the "Organization" section--assuming that the tripartite model is adopted. That a poll would produce such results would seem to substantiate Skopol's characterization. Maybe three subsections wouldn't be enough, but there seems to be latitude for removing a significant amount of basically obsolete information and reorganizing the data that has a longer shelf life in a more coherent fashion.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 07:58, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I have notified all significant contributors of this discussion three days ago, and there is still little on task contribution. What we can say is that people taking part here have all agreed with trimming, and that there have been no objections even with personal notifications. Is there enough consensus to move forward with the trimming? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

support unconditionally. Darkstar1st (talk) 15:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

support--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:12, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support trimming all material not generally applicable to the TPM as a movement Collect (talk) 17:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support trimming The best criteria is "how directly is it about the TPM (not just some connection to) the TPM? BTW, many items most needing trimming have not even been discussed here. The twitter comment, the "somebody said that somebody said something racist", the cub BBQ grill line, the POV synthesis from primary sources (polls) and the probably BLP-violating and certainly false line that implies that Ron Paul (the guy who wants to legalize trade with Cuba) is an isolationist. North8000 (talk) 21:27, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support----Snowded ^TALK 06:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Action on trimming

I will propose material here to be trimmed. Two supports with no objections after at least 24 hours will be taken as consensus to action the trimming. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:01, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was suggested that the election material should be trimmed, moving the bulk to a sub-article.

I have created a draft sub-article here: /Tea Party-endorsed candidates in the elections

And made a draft of what could could be left behind in the main article:

The Tea Party have had a number of endorsed candidates in the elections. In the 2010 midterm elections, The New York Times identified 138 candidates for Congress with significant Tea Party support, and reported that all of them were running as Republicans—of whom 129 were running for the House and 9 for the Senate.^[4] The Wall Street Journal–NBC News poll in mid October showed 35% of likely voters were Tea-party supporters, and they favored the Republicans by 84% to 10%.^[5] The first Tea Party candidate to be elected into office is believed to be Dean Murray, a Long Island businessman, who won a special election for a New York State Assembly seat in February 2010.^[6]

According to a calculation on an NBC blog, 32% of the candidates that were backed by the Tea Party, or were on a ballot line with a "Tea Party" name, won the election.^[7] Especially the Tea-party backed Senate Republican nominees for: Colorado, Nevada and Delaware, who had all defeated "establishment" Republicans that were expected to win the Senate races. The three Senate nominees were seen by many in America and the media as either amateurs or too far-out there to be electable as their positions on certain aspects were viewed as extreme.^[8] Several of the Tea Party-endorsed candidates won victories against established Republicans in primaries, such as Alaska, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Nevada, New York, South Carolina, and Utah.^{[citation needed]}

For the 2012 election, four of the 16 Tea Party candidates won a seat on the Senate, and Tea Party Caucus founder Michele Bachmann was re-elected to the House.^[9] The media, such as ABC and Bloomberg, commented that Tea Party candidates did less well in 2012 than in 2010.^[10][11]

Please support, oppose, or raise concerns. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that since the "Tea Party" is not established by discussion to be a single entity, that we use the phrase "Various Tea Party groups" instead of just "the Tea Party." The "percentage winning" should reflect 50% for the Senate and 31% for the House, as the NBC blog source states. And I would avoid "especially" as being problematic verbiage in any event. I would also reduce the sentence about the three "odd" Senate candidates to being "seen as having views too far from the mainstream" as bing short, simple, and accurate per sources. I would also shorten the 2012 result comments to "The general media in 2012 noted that the Tea Party candidadtes did less well than in 2010" as being accurate and to the point. IMHO, shorter is generally better. Collect (talk) 21:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looks OK, especially with Collect's ideas. But for clarity, could you state the action on the proposed changes, e.g "replace the section named "Ibsum factum" with the following:" Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's as discussed above, replacing the two election sections with the text in green, and moving the two election sections to a new sub-article to be called Tea Party-endorsed candidates in the elections - the draft for that is here: /Tea Party-endorsed candidates in the elections. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 07:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support The only point raised by Collect that seems necessary is to remove the term "Especially". Other than that, in this context simply "The Tea Party" seems fine and is easier to maintain consistency. The organization/movement will have been more thoroughly defined elsewhere in the preceding sections of the article. I also don't agree with eliminating what little detail there is for the 2012 election as it makes it clear that there was a precipitous decline in the number of and success of candidates associated with the TPM in contrast to 2010. I also don't see what "percentage winning" passage Collect is referring to.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 04:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... blog, 32% of the candidates that were backed by the Tea Party, or were on a ballot line with a "Tea Party" name, won the election is the section which I suggest should more closely follow what the blog actually states. And I still feel that there is nothing in any source which suggest the "TPM" is a specific "entity" rather than a whole slew of separate and disparate entities with some overlapping and some non-overlapping of positions. Lastly, Wikipedia is not here to "make clear" anything other than what reasonable weight determines to be salient - we are not here to make any point about anyone or anything, which appears to be a problem at times. Collect (talk) 08:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support (editors, let's try this approach please. anything would be an improvement over the last 2 years of junk status) Darkstar1st (talk) 07:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• There are many reliable sources that refer to the Tea Party movement as a movement, not an entity or a centralized, monolithic organization. Skopol's tripartite characterization has repeatedly been mentioned, and there are commonalities found across the movement, especially with respect to the agenda. I don't have a problem with going with "A number of Tea Parties" here, so long as you are not attempting to surreptitiously undermine the discussion of the Tea Party movement as such, particularly in the Agenda section.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 09:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC) [reply]

• support (editors, let's try this approach please. anything would be an improvement over the last 2 years of junk status) Darkstar1st (talk) 07:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The text with Collect's suggestions:

Various Tea Party groups have had a number of endorsed candidates in the elections. In the 2010 midterm elections, The New York Times identified 138 candidates for Congress with significant Tea Party support, and reported that all of them were running as Republicans—of whom 129 were running for the House and 9 for the Senate.^[12] The Wall Street Journal–NBC News poll in mid October showed 35% of likely voters were Tea-party supporters, and they favored the Republicans by 84% to 10%.^[13] The first Tea Party candidate to be elected into office is believed to be Dean Murray, a Long Island businessman, who won a special election for a New York State Assembly seat in February 2010.^[6]

According to a calculation on an NBC blog, of the candidates that were backed by a Tea Party group, or were on a ballot line with a "Tea Party" name, 50% were elected to the Senate and 31% to the House.^[14] The Tea-party backed Senate Republican nominees for: Colorado, Nevada and Delaware, who had each defeated "establishment" Republicans that were expected to win the Senate races. The three Senate nominees were seen by the media as having views too far from the mainstream to be electable.^[15] Several of the Tea Party-endorsed candidates won victories against established Republicans in primaries, such as Alaska, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Nevada, New York, South Carolina, and Utah.^{[citation needed]}

For the 2012 election, the media commented that Tea Party candidates did less well than in 2010.^[16][17][18]

Is this OK? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to the above selected content, in general. I'd recommend some minor cosmetic edits, however:

The second sentence of the second paragraph should have this appended to the end: , lost.

The [citation needed] tag should be replaced with a citation. (I'll see if I can locate one.)

The first sentence of the second paragraph should read "identified themselves as a Tea Party member" instead of "were on a ballot line with a 'Tea Party' name", in order to comply with the cited source. The present wording is unsourced.

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not, but the first paragraph claims 129 House and 9 Senate candidates. The second paragraph gives percentages based on 130 House and 10 Senate candidates.

Question: Is the reliability of the NBC Blog source challenged in some way? If not, I'd suggest dropping the "According to a calculation on an NBC blog" verbiage, and just start that sentence with "Of the candidates".

Xenophrenic (talk) 08:52, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Conditional oppose

I would be OK with the first two paragraphs if the information regarding the 2012 election were restored and that paragraph written in a manner reflecting a more balanced and neutral POV with respect to the elections overall. The lone term "media" is also somewhat misleading due to the close relationship between FOX News and the TPm. As it stands, this cannot be said to be an NPOV text, because it doesn't even come close to representing what the sources say. The first two paragraphs attempt to portray the TPm's success in elections as some sort of juggernaut, and the extremely vacuous single sentence covering the 2012 election gives no detail compared to too much detail for 2010, making it seem somewhat promotional on the one hand and in denial on the other. Just look at the tiles of the articles (references) from the media:

1. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/06/tea-party-election-results_n_2084506.html

Tea Party Election Results: Conservative Movement Of 2010 Takes Pounding In 2012

1. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/06/tea-party-candidates-losing-steam-in-2012/

Tea Party Candidates Losing Steam in 2012

1. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-07/has-the-tea-party-lost-its-mojo

Has the Tea Party Lost Its Mojo?

I would think a paragraph more along the lines of

For the 2012 election, the Tea Party movement could only claim 16 affiliated candidates, of whom four were able to win a seat in the Senate, while Tea Party Caucus founder Michele Bachmann was the only candidate re-elected to the House.

would reflect the actual state of affairs as portrayed in the cited RS.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 09:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't mean to be contrarian by the above post, as I am aware of how difficult it has been to make it this far. On the other hand, it seems necessary to declare that the focus on policy should not be sacrificed in pursuit of expedience. I feel somewhat out of order in being compelled to state that policies such as RS and NPOV, etc., apply when an ARBCOM member is moderating the discussion, but I am not in consensus with the above passage as currently drafted.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The trouble is that your version isn't accurate. Those 16 candidates were only the ones for the Senate, and did not include House candidates. Also, Bachmann was not the only House candidate from TPm who won. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I did not read through the sources, so that sentence was drafted on the fly, assuming that the previous version somewhat accurately reflected the content of the sources. I do not have time to go through the sources, but would assume that they can be summed up in a single sentence along the lines of that rough draft.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support the emended version as being in strict compliance with the sources. I would note that the suggestion that "lost" be appended to the second sentence of the second paragraph is both grammatically and factually incorrect. The NBC blog was the source for the wording about "anyone who has either been backed by a Tea Party group or has identified themselves as a member of the Tea Party movement", which is broader than Xeno's choice. If we decide to use the full definition used in the blog, we must clearly denote it in quotes, of course. The numbers are from the source cited - if sources disagree, then we do not try to "correct" the source named. Where a calculation is made in a source, Wikipedia guidelines say to name the source used for the calculation. The NYT source is uded to indicate actual party affiliation, the NBC blog does not make that claim, so if we start with the NBC blog, we pretty much lose the "Republicans" claim - we can not use both without then hitting SYNTH. If we combine the two in any way without making it clear that the NBC blog did not make such a claim, we would be making a claim which is not found on the NBC blog. Collect (talk) 11:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but it's inaccurate. See above. I'll come up with a version that's more accurate later this morning when I have a bit of time. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Collect, why don't you respond to the question about the sentence on the 2012 elections? Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go through the sources at the moment to directly refute in a detailed manner your claim that the sentence I questioned is in "strict compliance with the sources".--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but I find language such as could only claim etc. to be quite likely found by other editors to be excessively POV and thus contrary to absolute Wikipedia policy. CONSENSUS is not "perfection" but it does require scrupulos adherence to the NPOV policy. Hope this helps. Collect (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, that was just a quick modification of the existing text along the lines of what I assumed to have been a sentence originally drafted to reflect the content of the cited sources. It looks like I will have to pound out an actual edit for the 2012 elections. Unfortunately, I do not see a source comparable to the NBC blog for numbers related to 2012. It appears that the TPm lost about 20% of its seats. Would that sound about right to you? I want to keep the edit to a single concise sentence. There is a lot of predominately negative commentary about the TPm in the 2012 election, but this is about the only source with extensive numbers I have found What Happened to The Tea Party in the 2012 Election?. The data was gathered from the state websites detailing election results.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:18, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Try this one:

Various Tea Party groups have endorsed a number of candidates in the elections. In the 2010 midterm elections, The New York Times identified 138 candidates for Congress with significant Tea Party support, and reported that all of them were running as Republicans—of whom 129 were running for the House and nine for the Senate.^[19] The Wall Street Journal–NBC News poll in mid October showed 35% of likely voters were Tea-party supporters, and they favored the Republicans by 84% to 10%.^[20] The first Tea Party candidate to be elected into office is believed to be Dean Murray, a Long Island businessman, who won a special election for a New York State Assembly seat in February 2010.^[6]

According to a calculation on an NBC blog, of the candidates that were backed by a Tea Party group, or were on a ballot line with a "Tea Party" name, 50% were elected to the Senate and 31% to the House.^[21] The Tea-party backed Senate Republican nominees for: Colorado, Nevada and Delaware, who had each defeated "establishment" Republicans who were expected to win the Senate races, eventually lost in the general election. The three nominees were seen by some media sources as having views too far from the mainstream to be electable.^[22] Several of the Tea Party-endorsed candidates won victories against established Republicans in primaries, such as Alaska, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Nevada, New York, South Carolina, and Utah.^{[citation needed]}

For the 2012 election, four of the 16 Tea Party candidates for the Senate won a seat, and Tea Party Caucus founder Michele Bachmann was re-elected to the House.^[23] The media, such as ABC and Bloomberg, commented that Tea Party candidates weren't as successful in 2012 as in 2010.^[24][25]

With all due respect to contributors who worked on previous versions, the grammar was a bit awkward and not 100% accurate compared to the sources. I realize everyone is trying very hard to improve this article and I commend you for your efforts. I'm trying to keep up. Let me know what you think. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the NBC blog I used "5 WON - 50% of Tea Party candidates won" for the Senate and "40 WON - 31% of Tea Party candidates won" for the House. based on the numbers of races decided at the time pf the post as being more informative than a mixed "32%". The prominence of Senate candidates is not identical to that of house candidates, and simply adding the totals is misleading. Posit a party gaining 20 House seats v. a party gaining 20 Senate seats -- which has greater weight in Congress? Thus I suggest using the more detailed figures from the source is better information for the average reader. Also all the media commented on "less success" even including Fox et al -- restricting it to ABC and Bloomberg is not necessary. Really. Lastly, I find the "amateur" asides about the odd candidates is not necessary, and adds nothing for the reader (what, precisely, is a "political amateur" if they had actually held office in the past or worked for years in politics? - they were viewed as too far out of the mainstream per tons of sources). Collect (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no problem using the more detailed information, but you have left out relevant context in a manner that seems to portray the TPm candidates as gaining more than they did in the senate, for example. What percentage of the senate does 5 members account for? If you are going to insist on details, then the context is necessary to maintain NPOV. The more I look at the sources the more apparent it becomes that the text in the article is not even close to reflecting what they say.

With respect to the percentage of candidates fielded (according to the NBC blog), 10/100 (=10%) for the Senate is significantly lower than 130/435 (=@33%) for the House. From that perspective, the TPm was able to field supportive candidates in only 1/10th of Senate races whereas the figure is 1/3rd for the House. It would seem that you are trying to blow the numbers out of proportion to make it look like they accomplished more than they did by saying that they won 50% of the races for the Senate and only 31% for the House, without including the combined total of 32%, which puts those figures in perspective. From another angle, the TPm supportive candidates that won in 2010 accounted for 5/100 (=5%) of the Senate and 40/435 (=@9%) of the House, so again the numbers tend to be more relevant with respect to the House, not the Senate. Excuse the WP:OR analysis of the sources, but it is to counter the current NPOV presentation.

The coverage of the 2012 election, in particular, is almost exclusively negative with respect to the results for TPm affiliated candidates. Not one reliable source cited or that I've found portrays anything that could be deemed a plus for TPm supporters, so the description has to reflect that. I am in favor of keeping the election information in the main article to a minimum, so I will attempt to make a one or two sentence description relating to the 2012 election coverage.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:50, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as conforming to all the requirements of Wikipedia here. Collect (talk) 14:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Collect. I'm fine with any of Silk Tork's versions above also. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Good progress. When there are no further queries or changes, I will edit the article with the latest amended version after at least 24 hours have passed. Meanwhile, would people take a look at /Tea Party-endorsed candidates in the elections, as I think some of the amendments made above may apply to the proposed sub-article. It would be useful to have the sub-article ready at the same time as making the edit to the main article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 14:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had a moment of boldness and created an article called Tea Party effect on U.S. elections, 2010-2014. I suggest with all due respect that it's a better title. "Elections" is a bit vague for a worldwide encyclopedia and someone from Australia or New Zealand, or from India who reads the English Wikipedia, may not have heard of the American Tea Party. Specifying a range of dates suggests it may be the start of a series of articles chronicling the Tea Party's effect on U.S. elections farther down the road. I've used SilkTork's subpage article but added the subsection on ground game/GOTV from the Tea Party movement article, adding "2014 election cycle" to the section header, and we can expand it as time passes — more news and analysis gets published. I'm sure it will be edited a great deal in the next few hours, days and weeks, but thought it was appropriate to get it out there in the mainspace. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're on the right track. Once again, I definitely think that the subsection on Ground game/GOTV from the Tea Party movement article belongs in a separate article related to elections. It only seems natural to integrate the material on the elections along with the electioneering, and an article title referring to the effect or impact on the elections serves to focus that information in a more coherent manner.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I successfully resisted the powerful urge to add the word "grass-roots" to the new article's header. I may have been a bit hasty creating the article at all, and I apologize for that. I would like to offer a gentlemen's agreement. No high-profile editing decisions, especially to the lede, should be made to the content of any of these spin-off articles without prior agreement here, in this moderated discussion. Can we agree on that? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]