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Everything has been moved to Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Archive 11. --myselfalso 21:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Games have been released for different platforms on odd media before. Final Fantasy XI for the PlayStation 2 came as a hard drive attachment. Sonic & Knuckles came out on one of those weird Genesis cartridges with another cartridge reader on top. It's 99.9% likely that the game will come out on a Wii Optical Disc, but it's not confirmed by anyone. We do not put "likely" information in articles about unreleased products, even "extremely likely" information. It may even come out on two discs, in which case the "media" indicator is also false. Not every single fact in Wikipedia must have its own source, but saying this game will come out on a Wii Optical Disc is completely unverifiable. - Chardish 21:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you heard of Wikipedia:Use common sense and Wikipedia:Ignore all rules? They apply here. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 22:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Indead they do. Anubiz 22:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• I've heard of ignore all rules, but verifiability is non-negotiable. - Chardish 01:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Let me clarify: What "ignore all rules" does not mean is that Wikipedia is anything other than an encyclopedia of verifiable facts built by a community of volunteers with a wiki. (See: Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, which is not a rule, but a definition.) - Chardish 01:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the part about Ignore all rules be an oxymoron anyway? Taken at face value, you shouldn't follow the "Don't follow the rules" rule anyway :D And besides Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is satirical anyway, but Wikipedia:Common Sense shouldn't be a defense against verification and reliablility. Quatreryukami 02:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Where in the Don't Follow the Rules article does it say that it shouldn't be taken seriously? And it's not a rule, it's a guideline. I don't see where the big deal is. If it's coming out for the Wii, then logically it will be on Wii Optic Disk. If we head differently (yeah right) then we can change it. Joiz ^A. Shmo 02:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Heh, I picked up on that shortly before reading your post, and wrote a quick essay. Anyway, I think that "common sense" applies for most cases, but since Wikipedia must contain no speculation, I think that even "common sense" speculation requires verifiability. Drawing "logical" conclusions is original research via synthesis, which is also forbidden and non-negotiable. Also, read what I said about the game coming out on two discs - that is a very real possibility. Furthermore, if we're going to allow speculation of any kind as long as it's almost certain to be true, why not start reporting sales figures? I'd bet my life savings the game will sell at least 10,000 copies. - Chardish 02:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hahahaha. Maybe we should all write an essay on Verifiblilty not having to apply to all arts rofl. Just Kidding! Great essay, btw, I give it a A+.

Now then, He has a point there in his last sentence. And I also restate the Genesis arguement at the top of the section and add my own little 2 cents: what if some new technology (Blu-Ray Wii?) comes out and they use that instead? Won't we feel pretty stupid? Lets just say undetermined for now, but in updates we'll find out more! *Drool...weekday updates....:p*Quatreryukami 02:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, if it's blu-ray, we're screwed because it wouldn't be playable. But it's pretty obvious that this is getting no where, so we should either find someone who'll be objective and have them make the decision, or just stop arguing about it. We're going around in circles.DurinsBane87 02:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree!(I summmon Miyamoto!) rofl. Really, I don't care either way. Can we just make a consensus? Quatreryukami 02:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless anyone has a strong reason why we should treat very likely possibilities as being equivalent to fact, and why doing so is necessary to improve the quality of the article, I think the speculation should be removed. - Chardish 03:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey! Let's take off the Wii Optical Disk from Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, and NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams while we're at it because those aren't confirmed either. "Final Fantasy XI for the PlayStation 2 came as a hard drive attachment." The Wii doesn't have a hard drive though "Sonic & Knuckles came out on one of those weird Genesis cartridges with another cartridge reader on top." You're comparing oranges to apples there, cartidges =/= CDs. You can't download the game obviously because the Wii Optical Disk is at least 1 GB and the Wii Flash Drive can only support up to 512 MB. Another thing, Brawl was going to be a launch title too, what does that tell you. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 07:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh hey! I got it! Let's remove the character section because we don't know if they're going to be in the final game. After all, they can decide at any time to remove them releaseing the final game, right? Mario is a speculation character too because we don't know if Nintendo will change their minds. </sarcasm> magiciandude (Talk) (review) 07:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

What kind of moron woul think that Super Smash Bros is coming out on something other then a Wii Disc? The previous Smash Bros games didn't break the mould in terms of the medium they came out on (Cartridge for N64 and GC Discs for Melee) so why should it be any different for Wii?

Yeah, ok, there's some crap about no original research. Here's a thought though. If they were going to release it on something OTHER then a Wii Disc, would it not have been revealed by now? You don't look stupid if they suddenly announce it's going to be a cartridge or something, you simply take it into your stride and say; "originally thought to be on a Wii Optical Disc like most other Wii games, is now on a <insert medium here>. The Wii takes Gamecube discs and Wii Discs as it's primary source of media. That's not going to change with what is without a doubt one of the most succesful franchises in gaming history getting a release for a new console. GOsh, i hope they take the god-awful Camera and Fixed Camera modes out. Those modes were really stupid. 195.195.15.250 07:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

nintendo will never stop to make the announcment "oh yeah, and smash bros comes on a regular wii disk" because they know we have the common sense to work it out for ourselves. until the wii has produced a game in the format other than a disk, we should assume that it is what all future games will be released as. if it's not released as a disk, we change it, it's not hard. Djchallis 07:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So it is agreed, that the majority say the "Wii Optical Disk" media should stay. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 08:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, I reiterate: Unless anyone has a strong reason why we should treat very likely possibilities as being equivalent to fact, and why doing so is necessary to improve the quality of the article, I think the speculation should be removed. Verifiability, not truth, is the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia. - Chardish 11:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

BECAUSE ALL WII GAMES ARE ON WII DISCS. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that Smash Bros will not be on a Wii Disc? You're talking what sounds to be more speculation then what everyone else is saying! 84.13.126.159 11:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

Can you find a reliable source that says "all Wii games are on Wii discs?" I couldn't. The bottom line is, no one can prove that this game will come out on a Wii optical disc. - Chardish 12:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It's so obvious that nobody has bothered to say it. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 13:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Can YOU find source that says that not all games on the Wii go on the Wii Optical Disk? Virtual Console games do not count. :) magiciandude (Talk) (review) 16:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Just the aileans in my head, but they don't speak good Japinese. Word per word "Smush bros will be on a monkey."Anubiz 16:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Okay, why is this conversation even happening. Let's just put it's unconfirmed if gameplay can be saved or not? Or let's put it's unknown yet if we'll be able to select our own character or the game will just pick a random character for us? (Zojo 18:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC))

Straw poll

Until we have "confirmation" that the sky is blue, let's have a straw poll to see if common sense prevails. Let's consider the result a "binding consensus" so that we don't have to deal with this again. We'll consider it officially closed Thursday at midnight.

Support "Wii Optical Disk"

1. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 13:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
2. --LuigiManiac 13:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC) This is common sense. What other medium would it be distributed through?
3. - --Bishop2 13:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC) If it's a Wii game, it's on a Wii Optical Disk. It's not listed as a freaking GameCube game or something.
4. - --myselfalso 14:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
5. Djchallis 14:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC) we use common sense to make sensible conclusions all the time on wikipedia, this is no different. until proven otherwise it just makes sense to assume this.
6. Anubiz Napoleons White horse.
7. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 16:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC), we need a source as much as we need to know what time the two o'clock bus leaves.
8. OBEY STARMAN 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC), This is obivous that it will be on the Opitical Disk.
9. Vilerocks 22:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Remember to use your common sense.
10. OMG... this arguemnt is even here? Wikipedia has reached a new low. 203.51.237.72 02:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
11. Ourai ^тʃ_с 04:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Unless there is reason to believe otherwise, very likely possibilities should be equivalent to fact. WP:LAME.

Oppose "Wii Optical Disk"

1. Might as well add Donkey Kong and Yoshi to the list of confirmed characters. All Wii games are released on Wii Optical Disc, right? And all Smash Bros. games have Donkey Kong and Yoshi in them. It's the exact same argument. - Chardish 21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If there were like 15 or more super smash bros. games that ALL had DK and Yoshi, THEN it would be the same argument. DurinsBane87 01:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Other

1. Quatreryukami 14:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Let's just say "unconfirmed" and add this to "Lame Arguements" even though I started a lot of them. Quatreryukami 14:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
2. Agrees with Quatreryukami. 68.43.41.106 01:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
3. I'm actually pro-Wii Disc, but I agree more with submitting this to WP:LAME.

Straw Poll Results

Not to close the polls early, and you all can feel free to vote if you have not, but I think the consensus is clear now. Therefore, it's back on the page. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 18:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Give a due date please. Just edit the heading in the voting section with the date the vote will end.magiciandude (Talk) (review) 00:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. I picked Thursday, 2007-05-24 11:59 pm as the close date. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 06:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing no one read WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. This shouldn't be "binding". Oubliette 04:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

What about when articles are put up for deletion? I don't know about you, but they appear to be voting when they say keep or delete. Comrade Pajitnov 04:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

articles put up for deletion arent voted on, people give their opinion and then state their reasons for wanting an article kept or deleted. Then someone comes and judges the merit of each sides argument.DurinsBane87 06:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It is unverified and unverifiable that this upcoming game will be released on a Wii Optical Disc. Nonetheless, as the vast majority of Wii titles are released on Wii Optical Discs, it is fairly obvious that Super Smash Bros. Brawl will be as well. Do we remove the unverifiable information from the article, or ignore all rules and keep it?

Statements of editors previously involved in dispute

• Verifiability, not truth, is the criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. This is especially true for articles about unreleased media, as Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and speculation of any kind is forbidden. There are a lot of assumptions we can make about this game based on other releases in the series, yet none of those assumptions are in the article - because Wikipedia articles are only for confirmed facts, not the assumptions of those writing the articles. Likelihood has nothing to do with it. - Chardish 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Soal Clamber III Anubiz 00:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
• Hey Chardish, have you found a game for the Wii that does NOT use the Wii Optical Disk? Virtual Console games do not count. magiciandude (Talk) Chardish, don't tell other people what they can or cannont do. This is Wikipedia, the Free Online Encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit. No one has to be involved in that silly arguement of yours that to make an opinion or statement. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 01:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The goal of RfC is to obtain the opinions of third parties, not to elicit ad hominem attacks. Be civil. - Chardish 01:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I have moved your comment to the appropriate section, as you are not a third party. - Chardish 01:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes I know, but no one has to be excluded from making an comment. While you're at it, are you ever going to answer my question of "Does any Wii game NOT use the Wii Optical Disk besides Virtual Console games"? magiciandude (Talk) (review) 01:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
      • You might be unfamiliar with the concept of Request for Comment, the purpose of which is to bring in external opinions from people who have not been involved with the dispute already. Hence the necessity to keep their comments separate. And, to answer your question, Impossible Mission is going to be released as a direct download to the console. The issue here is verifiability - unverifiable information cannot be a part of this encyclopedia. See WP:V. Furthermore, the idea that we can draw a conclusion that the game will be released on a Wii disc is original research, which is also forbidden. - Chardish 01:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Chardish, you did not read what I said. I told you to NOT include a Virtual Console game because it is known that a Virtual Console = a downloadable game. By judging your post, you really don't know any games that doesn't use a Wii Optical Disk, do you? magiciandude (Talk) (review) 14:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Using Impossible Mission as an example is not the best example to use. The game was originally used on Commodore 64's, and is now being redesigned for download on Wii, PS3 and XBox 360. The contrast is that Brawl is a major, single platform game. An argument over such I believe should fall under WP:LAME. I think the only verifiable source will be when the game is actually on store shelves; Nintendo would say if it was on some media other than disc. --myselfalso 02:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Others, not me, are the ones who keep demanding possibilities other than the Wii Disc. Wikipedia requires verifiability, which is what I'm looking for as well. If this means removing speculative information until the game is released, so be it. - Chardish 02:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• But is there true verifiability when it involves Original Research? Seriously, who is going to say that it is on a Wii Optical Disc? Unless a source specifically says it, then even if I were to possess the game, if I wanted to say that it's media is the Disc, then it would be Original Research. --myselfalso 06:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• On the contrary. Wii games are by default going to be on Wii Optical Disks. To say that Super Smash Bros. Brawl might not be on a Wii Optical Disk is speculation in itself because it strays from the default. Pardon me for answering here and down there, by the way; I didn't take place in the original argument, but I had a counterpoint ready. You Can't See Me! 07:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Can you source that statement? (that Wii games are on Wii Optical Discs by default). If you can't, it's original research. I agree that it's a minute issue, but we have to be strict about Wikipedia's core content policies. - Chardish 11:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• From Wii:

Retail copies of Wii games are supplied on DVD-like optical discs, which have a capacity of 8.5 Gigabytes. Wii Optical Discs are packaged in a keep case along with instruction information. On European releases, these retail boxes have a triangle printed at the bottom corner of the paper insert sleeve side. The hue of the triangle can be used to identify which region the particular title is intended for and which manual languages are included.

Can't get much fresher than that. You Can't See Me! 11:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles can't be sources for other Wikipedia articles. And that statement isn't sourced either. I have yet to hear a single argument on this page that is based on Wikipedia policy and not one's personal opinion of what belongs on the page. - Chardish 21:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a reason as to why that is not sourced: the article writers simply used common sense. Every game out for the Wii (and no, Virtual Console downloads do not count) use the Wii Optical Disk. Hence, the Wii Optical Disk. Perhaps you'd have more of an argument if it was a generic CD, but it's not. I don't see what you're not getting here. Whatever the case, here's another

Q: What is Revolution's media format?
A: Revolution will play proprietary 12cm discs, which is the same size as DVDs. It will also be able to play GameCube Optical Discs, as it is backward compatible with the unit. Details on the new 12cm discs are slim. Nintendo initially announced that the discs would be dual-layered, offering upward of 8 gigabytes of storage. However, shortly after the announcement, it removed all mention of dual-layered discs from its official Revolution press release.

- [1]

Happy? You Can't See Me! 21:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really. The source says nothing about what media SSBB will be released on. - Chardish 22:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

(reindenting) Yes it does. It says that by default, Wii games are on Wii Optical Disks. That applies to Brawl as well. So, changing it to "Unknown" or "TBA" is more of speculation than leaving it as Wii Optical Disc. You Can't See Me! 22:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really. Because it hasn't been announced, so TBA is perfectly acceptable. What bothers me about this whole thing is that it's people adding information to the article based on what they know to be true, rather than what there are sources to support. This is exactly the opposite of what Wikipedia is supposed to be about. The difference between assumptions and common sense is that there are usually sources to support common sense if you dig for a little bit. This is not so with speculative information. Assume nothing about things that do not exist yet. - Chardish 22:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It has been announced indirectly. The statement is that "[The Wii] will play proprietary 12cm discs [later named Wii Optical Discs], which is the same size as DVDs." Unless stated otherwise Wii games will be on these discs. What are you not seeing here? You Can't See Me! 22:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That "unless stated otherwise" bit is your own addition, and that's not sourced. The claim that "since every Wii game to date has been released on a Wii disc, all future games will be as well" is speculation and original research. - Chardish 22:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow... just, wow... I don't see how it could be any clearer. It was officially stated that the Wii plays Wii Optical Discs. That is the default. By definition, things fall to the default other than in special circumstances. As of now, no special circumstance has been made known, so the default rules. There is a difference between Original Research and common sense. This is the latter. I refuse to debate with someone who cannot pick up on that fact, so I shall not continue to argue here. Good luck to the next person to step up. From this point, I'll just blindly revert any time you attempt to change the media on the article, m'kay. You Can't See Me! 22:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I haven't been reverting at all since the discussion started here; that's not my modus operandi. Second of all, I don't think that the default rules in any circumstance when we're dealing with an upcoming product about which much has yet to be revealed. I'm not arguing that the game won't come out on a Wii disc - I'm simply arguing that without a source, that information does not belong in the article. That is Wikipedia policy - verifiability, not truth, is the standard for inclusion. The difference between original research and common sense is that common sense can be sourced; original research can't. Which is why you haven't been able to find a source that says "all Wii games come out on Wii discs." And what if the game comes out on two or more discs? That would pretty much invalidate the contents of that box. - Chardish 01:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

How in God's name is a fighting game going to work with two or more disks? I keep on telling you to give me a Wii game that does not use a Wii Optical Disk other than Virtual Console games, but all you do is just change subjects. Another thing that I keep telling you, Super Mario Galaxy, Nights: Journey of Dreams, and Metroid Prime 3 have Wii Optical Disk with no source needed. What do you have to say about THAT? magiciandude (Talk) (review) 02:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

1) Claiming that no fighting game could work on more than one disc is also original research. 2) I gave you an example that wasn't a virtual console game and you said that somehow it was because it was previously released, even though it's not VC. 3) I think that those articles you linked to should all have "Wii Optical Disc" removed unless it can be sourced, the same as this one. 4) I keep asking you to explain why core content policies like WP:V and WP:NOR should be ignored here, but you seem to be tossing those out in favor of an essay. - Chardish 02:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Pardon me for going back on my word, but WP:IAR is an official policy, not an essay. Furthermore, you claim to be using policies such as WP:NOR, but you are distorting their domain to suit your needs. Putting "Wii Optical Disc" as a media for a Wii game is common sense, not original research.

And regardless of what you say, your example game is a download. It is a Virtual Console game in essence. And how can a fighting game possibly be placed on multiple discs?! That's nonsense! Even so, those would still be Wii Optical Discs. You Can't See Me! 02:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Chardish, you're mistaking me for someone else who said that it is a Virtual Console game (which it is ANYWAY). So you're still don't have any games. You also refused comment when I told you about specific articles that don't have a source that says that it will use the Wii Optical Disk. You have less than one hour before the poll closes, so you better hurry up and persuade other users to agree with you before then. ^_^ magiciandude (Talk) (review) 03:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC) --break--

I'm done here

This debate is not bettering Wikipedia. I'm tired of people vandalizing my userpage [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] as a result of this argument; I think it speaks something about the computer and video game community as a whole. I'm also shocked at the means people have gone to to further their point of view, such as removing my comments [7] from the talk page. I'm tired of people acting like a "straw poll" is a substitute for discussion and acting like it'll finally stop me from making all those edits I'm not making anymore. I think this debate has been largely fueled by people who do not understand Wikipedia's content policies - one of which is that verifiability supercedes truth. WP:V spells it out as clean as day. I, for one, am ashamed to have been a part of this for so long. - Chardish 03:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not a substitution for discussion. But you're clearly running against the consensus, and no third party has even supported what you say. There is a clear consensus to put it on the page; this is a silly and nonsensical argument being held here; I said it once, I'll say it again: this is quite LAME. --myselfalso 15:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

That is no excuse for not answering my questions. I could've revertered your page by those vandals if I didn't feel asleep. Sorry Chardish, but when the whole community in Wikipedia disagrees with you, that's that. I hope you learned your lesson before trying to start another lame arguement. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 15:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Guys, guys. Let's not overkill here. What's done is done. You Can't See Me! 17:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

you really are going to piss and moan until you "win" aren't you. Well, I suppose that means you should also head over to the main Wii article and do some editing there. but this is getting ridiculous.DurinsBane87 11:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This arguement is just as rediculous and useless as a Rube Goldberg machine. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 20:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

People, please refrain from personal attacks, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. -TwilightPhoenix 17:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that it is considered a personal attack. Well I was being sarcastic, but I'll keep that in mind nonetheless. Thanks. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 17:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't directing it at anyone specifically, since I've spotted a few of them throughout this whole discussion and I didn't feel like pointing fingers. Sorry for making it appear as I was reffering to you. My text had to go after someone else's, unfortunately. -TwilightPhoenix 01:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I suppose we should change some other things too, then:

• "Mode(s) Single player, multiplayer" Has single player been confirmed?
• "The returning characters have been updated and redefined since their last appearance." How do you know all of them have been updated and refined? Maybe all other returning characters were left as-is.
• "No other information has been released." Oh? Do you have any source to back this up? Lack of sources saying otherwise is no source...else it'd be on a Wii optical disc, too. VDZ 10:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments from third parties

Erm, WP:LAME anyone? Seriously, this shouldn't even be an issue. By default, media for any one single system remains consistent. I'd say that it's more speculative to say that it "might not" be on a Wii Optical Disc than it is to say that it will be on one. You Can't See Me! 06:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Shame on you guys for letting this argument get this far. Why are you arguing about what media will the game be? So far Wii games have been on discs. I haven't heard any news about future games being released on anything else (excluding Virtual Console). Why can't we just leave Media out? If some special information is released that the game will be on something other than a disc, we put it. Honestly, a discussion this pointless shouldn't have gone on this long. (Zojo 14:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

I think it is kind of odd that they have Sega musicians on the list such as Tomoko Sasaki who is well known for the Sonic franchise. Should we add this to the bit about Sonic? OBEY STARMAN 22:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

No, because it's speculation. — Malcolm^{Use the schwartz!} 22:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought we weren't obeying the rules anymore? Fred Fredbuger 22:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The point of WP:IAR above was that overuse of WP:V would hinder us from improving the encyclopedia there. We all know it's going to be on a Wii Optical Disk, but they haven't said so officially. Speculation about characters, on the other hand, is probably best left out-- we're not as sure about which characters as we are about the disk format. however, I could understand a table of music artists, the games they're most known for, and one or two characters that may imply. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 23:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I know that it is speculation, but it should be notable that people from Sega and Capcom are working on this game as well.OBEY STARMAN 22:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Capcom who might that mean? Yes I agree that it's notable. Anubiz 22:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Masato Kouda from Capcom is working on it and apparently he is best known for his works with Monster Hunter and Devil May Cry according to the list. OBEY STARMAN 22:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems note-able, but not that important --User:Entei-Anubis

Agreed what I meant, what does the presence of Capcom mean in terms of third-party characters? Anubiz 23:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Uncailled for. Anubiz 00:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I added it under Music instead. OBEY STARMAN 00:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Anubiz 01:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Should we add the composer list to the page with their names linking to their page and the game they composed music linked to that page. Albeit the list is long maybe it could be a 4 column table (Composer|Game|Composer|Game). Only reason I ask is cause they have an important role in the game not as much as Sakurai but still. Sora3087 08:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so, the list is too long, and the information really isn't all that important, at least not yet. we don't have a list of every programmer for the game either. DurinsBane87 08:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, If you look at the composers and the games they have made music for, you might get an idea as to who is going to be in the game.For example,Hajime Wakai, made music for pikmin.This might mean that Olimar will be in the game. David Ready

Yea, but that's speculation and Original Research, so it isn't allowed.DurinsBane87 02:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

i know someone already suggested this in the archive, but I think we need a picture from the newer site for the Stages section instead of the prototype from the trailer. It would look better, and be more in tune to what the game will end up looking like.Tuesday42 00:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Anubiz 01:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Halberd prototype image, and replaced it with the updated Battlefield image for now. OBEY STARMAN 17:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I like it. Anubiz 17:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I chose the one without characters. ^_^ OBEY STARMAN 17:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd make the change myself, but I know it will be inevitably controversial, what with everyone so tense about their favorite Melee character's odds of making it in. The actual translation of Sakurai's comment says explicitly that some characters will definately be removed. There is no "may" about it. Sorry. 75.153.231.20 05:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

share proof or it'll be tossed into the "Speculation and Rumors" box. FyreNWater 07:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I definitely remember whatsisname (I can never remember Japanese names) saying that certain Melee characters may not return. I always assumed he meant Dr. Mario, Roy (NOT ROY! GET RID OF MARTH!) and Young Link. COnsidering these guys are basically clones. Almost down to their appearances. Until he's said which ones though, it's not right to say that until it's been made official. It may turn out that all the characters remain. 195.195.15.250 07:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

I thought he said this last May on Dojo? OBEY STARMAN 11:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, but the original cast is in (damn you Jigglypuff!!!) Dark Ermac 11:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge Pichu was only put into the game because it's cute, so if anybody is not returning it might be Pichu. Anubiz 14:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Where'd you hear that? Frankly, I think clones were put into Melee because they were so easy and quick to program. It makes sense that clones of existing characters may appear again, and it makes sense that some of the SAME clones may NOT appear because they've been done, but the theory that a character won't appear because their only reason for existing is "cuteness" sounds like something you just kinda came up with. --Bishop2 14:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Scorry, I didn't know you were such a Pichu fan. Anyway you do make a good point clones are quick and easy to make though the results might not be the best sort of like palette swaps. Anubiz 14:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a Pichu fan. Nobody's a Pichu fan. But we can't assume why characters make it into the game or don't, and therefore we can't assume who will or won't be in this game. Which obivously means we can't go onto the article and edit it to say "Well, Pichu is probably unlikely to show up." I mean, we can't back that up. On the other hand, if you can back up Pichu being included only because he's cute with an interview quote or something, it might be an interested thing to add to the Melee article, or at least consider adding. --Bishop2 15:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I can't it's just popular opinion around here, that that is applied Pichu was included. By around here I mean in reality. Anubiz 15:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I did hear that Luigi and Gannon are returning due to the fact that there voice actors are working with the team, iam sorry i can't remember where i heard this but this could mean many of the same clones will return.Leahcim117 17:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)leahcim117

that came from imdb, as discussed many times in the archive. it's user-based and so can't be used as a source. Djchallis 18:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

And of course Luigi's voice actor is working on Brawl. Charles Martinet also does Mario and Wario, you know. Teamrocketspy621 18:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Dj. I'd like to introduce you to a Blog known as Nintendrone. The owner got a interview with someone who is heavily involved with Brawl. One of the guy's answers was "Not all of the fighters from Melee will return". So don't go saying it's fdrom imdb when it came from a blog which had an interview with someone heavily involved with Brawl. Cause then you make yourself look stupid. Angry Sun 18:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The site is there again, although not much new info yet. You guys with actual Wikipedia accounts might want to remove the bit about it being offline though.

It might be awhile befoure we get somthig new. Anubiz 12:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If I had to speculate, I'd say give it another one to two weeks. The week offline was probably spent rebuilding the site from scratch, so this second week will be spent rewriting the original info from before. There are new screenshots, so it isn't completely bad. - Zero1328 _Talk? 13:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It does contain the first stage, though. Battlefield can now be added to the article. The site is also being updated every day with new info, so that's a plus. --Ultima 17:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Some body on this page mention that Capcom is working with brawl does that give us any indication on third-party characters? And if it is from Capcom who are likely candidates?

Sorry if this sounds like a fourm, I was not sure how to word this. Anubiz 15:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

One of the composers of music in some of the Capcom games is working on the music in Brawl. That's all we know at this time. Lots of musicians from lots of gaming companies are helping with the music. Any connections between this and the inclusions of third-party characters would be purely speculation at this time. Joiz ^A. Shmo 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

OK scorry. Anubiz 16:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Should there be a list of the composers that are contributing to Brawl, here or in a seperate article? 165.20.104.30 16:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Neither, instead, we should have a category for it called Category:Super Smash Bros. musicians, but even then I still don't think it'll be worth it. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 16:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Any game has musicians, and I doubt those game articles have such lists. Because there's 36 musicians listed there, we're better off linking to that. Erik Jensen ^{(Appreciate|Laugh At)} 17:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I just thought there should be something, as normally a game has only a couple of composers working on it. 36 composers contributing to one game is unprecedented. 165.20.104.30 22:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Most of the sources that link to Brawl's website are currently gone due to the update. Should we remove these sources or find an archive verison? OBEY STARMAN 17:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Until they're reposted, we could use archive.org and cite them that way... —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 17:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It says Lucario in super smash bros. Figheters. So is it true? Anubiz 17:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Please cite the source, it seems like speculation to me. OBEY STARMAN 17:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Look here Lucario it also says so here. Catgirls.com

Do you really expect me to listen to your vandalism? Lucario is not confirmed. Just hold your horses. OBEY STARMAN 17:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Scorry, did I at least do it right? Anubiz 18:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Just wait a few days, they are revealing stuff every weekday. He might appear. ^_^. OBEY STARMAN 18:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

A few days? I asked if some brawl lineup that I made up was the real one on Yahoo answers. Including Lucario. We probably won't know anything new before it's resolved. For a copy of the list see my sandbox. Anubiz 20:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyone can post on Yahoo answers, it was propably the most wanted list at Smashboards.com, not sponsered by nintendo. OBEY STARMAN 21:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it is a list of who I want in Brawl. Anubiz 21:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

How can that help us? It can't. -Sukecchi 21:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I know, I was traying to say we will not get new info for awile without out right saying it. But is it a good line up? Anubiz 21:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it's a good line up. Discussion about it doesn't belong here. -Sukecchi 21:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Anubiz 21:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

As much as Lucario, Blaziken, and a lot of other Fighting-type Pokémon would be really awesome, we can't know for sure. --Luigifan 21:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

True. Do you mean that you want lots of Fighting Pokémon in the game? I saw someware that only dule Fighting types will be aloued. Anubiz 22:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This isn't the place for this discussion. Take it to a forum or your talk pages.DurinsBane87 22:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I thught it was dorped untill Lugifan posted. Anubiz 22:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Category:Super Smash Bros. fighters has been listed for deletion here.

• {{Super Smash Bros. series playable characters}} has been listed for deletion here.

--myselfalso 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Both are bad ideas! Anubiz 18:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Why? They have been used since the SSBM page existed. OBEY STARMAN 18:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

A user nominated the template for deletion. I nominated the category for deletion because a growing consensus suggested deleting the category instead of the template. --myselfalso 18:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, I'd suggest making your opinions known on both pages. --myselfalso 18:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there anything to put in the article that was released today? (Zojo 18:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC))

No because all we got were Mario and Link. Anubiz 18:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Enemy?! Where did you get that? MK's always been a good guy.

Kirby's Adventure - Gave you candy in the middle of levels Amazing Mirror - Attempted to save Mirror World,(SPOILER AHEAD) let Kirby use Galaxia. Squeak Squad - (SPOILER AHEAD) stole the Squeak's chest to avoid the Dark Nebula being released.

Also (this may not apply, since it's the games we're talking about), but just watch the anime. MK is definetly not a villain. There was the whole world domination/killing Kirby thing, but... FOR THE MOST PART, it's clear that he's a good guy. XD --Alice2 22:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Holy not a forum Batman... What does this have to do with the article? I don't see this discussion or section as necessary or even appropriate in this talk page. (Poweroverwhelming 22:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC))

The game was made after the Bio, rember? Anubiz 22:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you guys who just do nothing but say "this is not a forum" or "that's speculation" get on my nerves. This guy questioned whether Metaknight should be listed as a villian or not in the ARTICLE. Honestly, if there's actually a lot of people protesting Metaknight being classified as a villian, we should just wait for Metaknight's new bio to appear on the updated site and go from there. (Zojo 22:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC))

By definition, he is a recurring enemy. He does fight Kirby in multiple games, does he not? On the other hand, he never swears his friendship to Kirby (excluding the non-canon Kirby anime), only once aiding him for the common good of Dreamland. By strict definition, that makes him an enemy; an anti-hero he is, but still an enemy. To be an enemy, one only needs to be brought into direct conflict with another who is not an ally. To be a recurring enemy, that conflict occurs at several points. One does not necessarily have to be evil. You Can't See Me! 03:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps "antagonist" would be a better word? --Sparky Lurkdragon 03:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That might work, though it doesn't really give off too different a connotation than the word that's already there. "Opponent," maybe? You Can't See Me!

The first person on this topic here is really kind of stupid. Meta Knight ia a RIVAL!

The only reason Meta Knight gave him that Food Item so that he can be at full strengh for their battle. He stole the chest because he didn't want Dark Nebula beating the crap out of Kirby before him. KaTAM was the only time. Anime is not canon. Angry Sun 04:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is a quick and effective solution. Look at the guys who did the research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_Knight#_note-0

it basicclly states that though not evil, he is Kirby's Rival. Air Head 04:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

So, should we change it to "Recurring rival" or does someone still disagree? Unknownlight 04:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Meta Knight is rather hard to classify when it comes to a specific title in relation to Kirby. "Friend or Foe?" is probably the only possible way to describe him, as his own personal views vary in agreement with Kirby's on a wide scale, whether it's saving the Mirror World in Kirby & the Amazing Mirror (in which Kirby and Meta Knight had similar goals), or trying to rid Dream Land of its lazy lifestyle by conquering it in Kirby Super Star (in which Kirby was obviously opposed to Meta Knight's plan). He can't be an enemy, as he's helped Kirby out before. He can't be an ally, as he's done things that caused Kirby to fight against him. There isn't much reason in them being rivals, because there is little reason for them to have a rivalry, based on previous actions.

In short, he's just a mysterious character with his own ideals, who sometimes helps Kirby out on occasion. Disaster Kirby 04:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I like Unkownlight's description. "Recurring rival". It's sorta like your rival in the pokemon games. Somtimes he gives you stuff, sometimes he battles you. But he is not an enemy. Air Head 22:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The rival in Gold and Silver could be counted as evil. Also, why not call him a Recurring Character? Drkirby 11:33, 26 May 2007

The rival in G/S/C can't be counted as a recurring character because he is only in three games where your adventure doesn't carry on from the other games.

And I don't think Meta Knight can be counted as evil or good due to the fact he has helped and hindered Kirby. Like Disaster Kirby said, it's hard to round him to good or evil. Friend or foe. You can't really do it.Lyokofreak101 16:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It says on the Smashbros page on gamespot the game is by nindendo and sora. http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/supersmashbros/ --Air Head 01:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC) Unless gamespot can cite a source, it can't be verifiable enough.--Henke37 17:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Gamespot ain't Sakurai are they?

When the credits are posted on the internet we can find out who it is. Angry Sun 17:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would like to recommend someone add more to the description of Battlefield. Something like as follows:

...It is not confirmed if this is based on real life time or game time, yet the preliminary trailer depicts a very quick cycling daytime. The time is measured by a sundial in the back center of the field. Many ruins of Roman Architecture can be viewed in the background as well. The floor seems to glow with energy, as does the bottom, which supposedly keeps the battlefield in the air.

Nuparu 01:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Nuparu

That's all original Research, except for the time cycling.DurinsBane87 03:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds more like observation to me. It's all obvious information from the screnshots.--Viridis^{talk|contributions} 04:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Soomeone can just as easly say it is Atlaiean arctitecure. Anubiz 11:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Gooey Bomb
HA HA! Have you seen the Item update? That Gooey bomb looks like an ace weapon! Someone update the Wikipedia page already! 195.195.15.250 08:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

I say we use the structure the Brawl site is using (sections for stages, items, game modes, and characters once new ones are shown) since it would be the easiest way to keep up with the site's promised daily updates.--Viridis^{talk|contributions} 09:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

No way; there's no reason to create a new list of items on a seperate to only list ONE item at this time. The structure of the current page is adequate. Just update the Items section of this page with the lines "Gooey Bomb is a confirmed item of the game. It stick to opponents and objects and explodes after a short time. It is apparently possible to pass on the Bomb by merely getting close to an opponent. 195.195.15.250 09:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

That is great, but is it from an outher game? Anubiz 11:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge, no. - NP Chilla 11:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Anubiz 11:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It's from the Super Smash Bros BRAWL website itself and all I did was reword what he said. If you're including stuff about non-revealed items (*cough*Nintendog*Cough*Cough**CHOKE*) then why is there nothing here about an actual revealed item?!

I was asking if the Gooey Boomb was orginal, or from outher gams like the Pokéball Anubiz 12:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's unique to the Smash Bros Series. I haven't heard of a "Gooey Bomb" in any other game. I guess it could be considered a bit of a major update because of it. 195.195.15.250 12:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

While the name "Gooey bomb" is new, the concept of sticky bombs that can be passed on, is not new.--Henke37 13:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This may sound like original research, but do you think that the Gooey Bomb was made to replace the Motion Sensor Bomb due to copyright issues? Remember that the Motion Sensor bomb was either from Goldeneye or Perfect Dark. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 14:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it, the "Beam sword" was an obvious embodiment of a lightsaber, but that didnt stop them. They just changed the name, and barelyDurinsBane87 14:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't konw if this helps of not but, The US military trayed to make somthing like this. A Sticky Granade that would stik to the bad guy. The problam was it stuck to the guy throing it.Anubiz 17:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

So some poor dude got his hand blown off before anybody realised that sticking super-glue onto a grenade wouldn't work? 84.13.116.0 12:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

It seems to be a play on Halo, and there is no way a company can trademark motion sensor bombs as a whole. Just like there can't be an issue with sticky bomb, as long as the same name isn't used. Chris M. 18:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

So it's a play on Halo, years before that game existed? That's nice to know.--Claude 20:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, 3 cherers for or military. Anubiz 20:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to edit an already done portion, but I do recall a Sticky Grenade in a Nintendo 64 game. It was in The World Is Not Enough and in multiplayer. You throw it and it adheres to whatever surface and gives off violet "flashes" before igniting. I forgot if it adhered to enemies. Jake52 My talk 09:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Why the heck do we have a "Items and Abilities" section and underneath it a "Confirmed Items" subsection? In accordance to what everyone one else said here, we should not speculate. We shouldn't be listing the item unless it is confirmed. Have a Nice Day :) 18:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I had removed it previously...someone decided to add it back I guess. It's gone now. -Sukecchi 19:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

And it's back now. The Gooey Bomb is a confirmed Item.

There is no reason for it to go. Angry Sun 19:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

But there's info right above it in the "Items and abilities" section, and says nearly the same exact thing. So it's redundant. — Malcolm^{Use the schwartz!} 19:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there a point in giving each character a section? Most of the information is "game guideish" and trivial. It really only needs a couple paragraphs talking about the returning characters, how some have been redesigned, and the new characters. Snake's role as a third party character can probably be implemented somewhere. TTN 21:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

TTN.

This is Smash Bros.

The game is going to have less than 50 characters.

Leave it ALONE! Angry Sun 21:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I heard 55, but aneyway the bios are the best we can git with what we csan work with. Anubiz 21:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The number of characters doesn't really matter (though there would never be sections for all of them). These will be cut after the game comes out because the sections only contain development info, so they may as well be cut now. TTN 21:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

We could probably take the returning characters off the list and only mention newcomers. I doubt that they'll reveal all of the newcomers on the site. When we have more information to work with, we can shorten the section and make whatever else we can. You Can't See Me! 21:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It really just needs a couple of paragraphs. The first could be something like "The game features many returning characters from... Many have been given new designs... Mario has become more defined... Link appears in a more detailed and realistic fashion in Brawl... Samus appears in her power suit and as the unarmored "Zero Suit Samus" who... Their overall fighting styles have been tweaked (I don't think that has happened, but is is just an example of what can go there)". The second would read like "The game features various newcomers... Pit makes his first playable appearance since... Wario... Meta Knight... *Snake and his third party role*". It would be actually complete and better formated, but that is the general idea. TTN 22:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That sounds rather disjointed to me. Just leave the page as it is right now. There's nothing wrong with it. It isn't Game Guide-ish at all. In order for it to be a game Guide you'd have to say something to the effect of; "The B Button fires Links arrows whilst the Forward A Smash is Pit's most powerful Smash move" - I don't see any of that in the article. BTW, Pit's arrows can apparently be aimed before firing them.

Leaving the page as-is makes no sense. The way that the characters are being described means that the sections will have to double or triple by the time that the game is released, or they will be cut down before then, and be replaced a couple of paragraphs and a link to the plain list of characters (this is the one that will happen). My example isn't the best ever, but it is a general idea of what it needs to look like. This should just be done now rather than later. That is why the info is Game Guide-ish. Describing the characters general fighting style can only lead to more in-depth (game guide) information. TTN 11:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If it's not broken don't fix it. Anubiz 12:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It is quite broken. The point of a characters section is to give a general overview on the characters, not list every minor detail on them. It will be replaced by a regular section that is somewhat like Melee's character section anyways (after more characters are (re)introduced). TTN 12:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

So... saying that Link's main weapon in Super Smash Bros BRAWL is the Master Sword make the page broken? From what I've read, the character sections describe the characters to a T and simply list the game they originally appeared in and some generic info about their fighting style. All those pages with Soul Calibur characters say stuff like, such-and-such a character is a decent mid-to-long range specialist and they sound a LOT more game-guidey then this page does.

It's is close enough to eventually become a problem. It's more about like over describing Pit and stuff like that. TTN 17:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

In my personal opinion, they are kind of lengthy. I don't think 1 paragraph describing every character is a good idea. How about one short-sweet-and-to-the-point sentence about the character's background, a sentence saying what appearences have they made in smash bros. before, and rest is Brawl related information provided by the official site (Zojo 13:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

The paragraphs should work fine. The point is to describe how the game's characters are used. An actual list is taken care of on the series article. TTN 17:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, so how is this? It can certainly be improved, but it would at least work better than the current format for at least a little while. TTN 23:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you just trying to shrink this so you can merge it with some list TTN? That's what it seems like. Angry Sun 23:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems like an actual improvement to the article structure. FMF|contact 23:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

That version looks good. I'd completely frogotten about the series article's list. Perhaps the second paragraph (or rather, the individual sentences mentioning the newcomers) could become a bullet list, though. That paragraph doesn't really flow. You Can't See Me! 00:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to try it for now, so you can do what you wish to it. I really don't care as long as the pointless sections are gone. TTN 00:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

No bullet lists so it has to be forced to flow in paragraph form. The characters section has potential to be its own article like MGS. Then the most oblivious section this article lacks can be added eventually - gameplay. FMF|contact 00:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If anything, this section will become the separate article, not SSBB's section on characters. Not that it matters, though. There existed a character list at one point, IIRC, and that got the axe. Or maybe it was an NPC list. I can't remember exactly. In any case, I've bulleted the section by now. If you feel strongly about it, you can revert and I won't mind too much. You Can't See Me! 02:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Has NO ONE here seen the original Super Smash Bros Page??? Everyone has their own sections there... Dark Ermac 11:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone needs to change where it says under Fox that his blaster is out at all times because in the newer screenshots its not out at all

Should we put here that Pit can control the curve of his arrows? It's just been announced on the website. --24.247.212.17 10:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Anubiz 10:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Moving this to the bottom of the page like it should be. Now really, is it necessary to make a separate entry on this talk page for EVERY update? This is going to get more and more cluttered. -Sukecchi 11:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This might be a solution.Anubiz 12:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

...No...just...no. -Sukecchi 12:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, be civil. --myselfalso 13:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Scorry I was traying to help. I did not put this on my User page for nothing

This user sometimes or always feels useless on wikipedia.

Anubiz 12:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

We probably need just to put a section May 25 Update and that'd be it for the day. And if nothing is revealed that day we don't need to put anything. Oh, and on a side note, you do need to put how Pit can shoot his arrows. (Zojo 13:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

Every update will not be notable. Pikachu, Kirby, and Fox are likely examples. Anubiz 15:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

We still don't know about Pikachu's and Fox's Super Smash. I don't think it is fair to say that. OBEY STARMAN 22:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's very necessary to have a separate header for each update that occurs that involves new content, because an update is an update, and things need to be verified in talk pages before putting them on an article that has been as controversial as SSBB. In the previous ten archives, countless talk page threads kept popping up about the same subjects that were already discussed, so one thread per update seems like an immeasurably better scenario. Erik Jensen ^{(Appreciate|Laugh At)} 23:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

While you do have a point STARMAN, we also don't know Pit's Super Smash, and his information has already been updated. So, for the time being, it's safe to assume that in the updates of all previously announced characters won't mention Super Smash's either. Lets just save space for updates with new information. It'll make navigating this talk page much simpler. -TwilightPhoenix 01:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes lets not lose are heads about this. Fox will probly blast people with the Gratfox's cannons or somthing like that. Also if the next update hapons to be Lucario, we are redy for it. Anubiz 23:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's not speculate. — Malcolm^{Use the schwartz!} 01:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I know, I know but what else could his Super smash attack be? The landmaster. Anubiz 01:51, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

For all we know, it could be something completely random, like Link's Triforce trap. That's why we should not speculate. You Can't See Me! 02:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. Anubiz 12:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Remember, not everything is likely to be revealed before the games is released. Under how to play section on the official site is where they'll probably elaborate on "Super Smash" attacks. It doesn't mean, though, that every character's "super smash" attack will be revealed too. (Zojo 17:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC))

also remember that whilst we fans will absorb every little fact we can find, not everything that's revealed actually needs to be in the article. Djchallis 14:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Like what? Anubiz 16:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Nintendrone recently did an interview with Nintendo, in which information about Brawl was revealed. Said information can be found here. I added the information with a source to the article, but it was removed due to not being "a reliable source". I figured you guys could deside on wether or not it's a reliable source or not. Takuthehedgehog 05:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a blog by a random guy (not a reliable source). He has no actual credentials, so there is no way of knowing if he is actually real or not. TTN 05:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

We discussed this exact blog in the last currently archived talk page. Since it's a blog, no reliability can be assigned to itDurinsBane87 06:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

official only or... aw, feck it. sure. it's legit. along with the unlockable characters Purple People Eater, Cr@zy N00b, and Rabid Fanboy. [/sarcasm] FyreNWater 10:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Who put this record on agian? Anubiz 12:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the blog, it's three things. A) Little known confirmed, or at least officially stated, information that can already be found on Wikipedia. B) Popular speculation. C) Some of his own speculation. Additionally, from what I know about Nintendo, they don't conduct "secret interviews" and wouldn't reveal information to a random blogger that they wouldn't to the rest of the public. If Nintendrone is to be reliable, he'll need to verify and prove his sources. Until then, its unreliable, mostly speculation, and should not be used in the article. -TwilightPhoenix 17:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreaed people are so hungry for Brawl info, the are willing to bleve aneything. Evin "New fighter Magikarp"Anubiz 19:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not like he'd be giving us any new information anyhow. (Zojo 21:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC))

True. Anubiz 01:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering if Snake should be kept in the first paragraph of the article. While it is important that SSBB is the first in the series to have a third-party character, there already is a section for it AND Snake is mentioned at least three times in the article after glancing through it (first 'overview' paragraph, if thats the right term, characters, and third-party). I feel that this may give him more...recognition (the better word I intended to use escapes me at the moment) over the other characters and more than he deserves. I believe that he should be removed from the first paragraph and either have the information about Snake in his character section and the third party characters under third parties, or remove snake but leave mention of SSBB being the first to use third-party characters. I did not make the edit yet since I don't want to start a silly argument and edit war like there was about whether SSBB will be on a standard disk or in some other speculatory form, hence I'm more or less trying to obtain consent before acting. -TwilightPhoenix 05:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, the lead section of an article should function as a mini-article of its own, summarizing the key points of the article down below. I'd assume that the inclusion of 3rd parties for the first time is one of the largest key points we have thus far. Actually, per WP:LEAD, we ought to have one or two more paragraphs in the lead section. Hm... You Can't See Me! 08:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Well then, if its supposed to be longer, then what should it include? I'm thinking maybe a line or two for stages and a line or two for items/abilities can help. And is the article 15k+ characters? I ask since that does determine the length of the lead. I'm not sure you would go about checking that without blanking/unblanking the pages just to see the changes in the characters, and I seriously doubt that would be a good idea.

On an irrevelant note, I'm afraid to touch the page. Every other page I've edited wound up getting deleted at a later date for one reason or another (hence why my contributions look to be almost exclusively user space edits). -TwilightPhoenix19:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not about other skins, but in the default, article size is shown in the history after the editor's links. At the time that I edited this page, for instance, the SSBB article is at 26,189 bytes (~26 kb) and this discussion page is at 78,165 bytes (~78 kb). As for what to put in the lead, I wouldn't know. I'm not too good at article writing unless it's a merge or reconstruction. You Can't See Me!

Hmmm, I'll try to come up with something on my user page. Maybe I'll have something to show tomorrow that should be acceptable. -TwilightPhoenix 00:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not brokin, so don't fix it. Anubiz 00:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, according to WP:LEAD it is. And it's not so much fixing as it is expanding. -TwilightPhoenix 00:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This whole policy of "not broken, don't fix it" is potentially the most damaging piece of commonplace advice that the human race concieved. If well enough is always left alone, no improvement would ever come about. You Can't See Me! 00:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There usted to be more info, but someone chanded it whilll i was out. Anubiz 00:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be TTN. Angry Sun 00:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I really am usless here, arnt I? Anubiz 00:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Nah. You've made quite a few good edits as well, such as your recent one to Princess Peach. You're not useless in the least, because every edit helps. --LuigiManiac 03:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Besides her name is rilly, Her serine hines Peachbloosm Grarbell Toodstol Princess of Mushroom Kidom. Anubiz 11:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I got a very rough draft of an improved lead here. It lacks any links or anything as of yet and is still in the works. Feel free to help improve it if you like, because I know it still needs it before it'll be acceptable for inclusion in the article. -TwilightPhoenix 15:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Good enough for me. Anubiz 16:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Whats the average time the official website gets updated? You should add that to the article. It could also help keep track of the newest official info.

4:00 in the moring east cost. Anubiz 08:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that's 10 GMT for any Europeans. 217.198.150.144 09:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's 1AM EST. Or was it 11PM EST...? Dark Ermac 11:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

From thes two I can fuger out all of them. Anubiz 14:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

"Pit is the first and only character to be able to fly for limited amounts of time." What does this mean?? JigglyPuff and Kirby fly for limited ammounts of time. Whats the difference?? --User:Entei-Anubis

First off I actually wrote that. And what I meant was he's the first character in that game currently to fly for short periods of time. Angry Sun 03:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

So then what Kirby and JigglyPuff do isnt counted as flying? --User:Entei-Anubis

No, it's not. That would be jumping in the air multiple times. Pit can (if I interpreted this properly) actually fly freely for short periods. You Can't See Me! 03:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This is open to debate and interpretation, however. For instance, in the trailer, Pit is shown doing multiple jumps in mid-air similarly to Kirby or Jigglypuff. --Guess Who

Both he and Meta Knight are shown to be able to do that. However, the latest update on the official site stated that (whether or not this is in addition to the aforementioned multi-jump ability), Pit's up-special (analagous to B^ in Melee) allows him to float freely for a short time. You Can't See Me! 06:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

wait, so that's different from Peach's float? i know for sure she can hover, move, and attack while floating. FyreNWater 08:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Peach can float and move horizontally. Pit can "fly freely through the sky!"[8] You Can't See Me! 08:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The wording is far too vague to say Pit's ability is definitely different to Kirby's or Jigglypuff's. In case you haven't noticed, the English on the site isn't exactly perfect, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone just made a mistake.

What do you mean? The article clearly states that it is Pit's up-special (B + ^ on a GCN controller). It can't be the same thing as Kirby/Jigglypuff's multiple jump because those are just the result of jumping repeatedly in the air. You Can't See Me! 10:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Pit flays the outhers flot. We don't know if this relliy afeats gameplay or not. Anubiz 10:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me like it's just the character's necessary recovery move (like Link's Spin Attack and Kirby's Final Cutter), but the way it is described on the site makes it sound just vague enough to be something else. You Can't See Me! 10:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Reading the post, there's only two things we can be sure of. Pit's Up-B move is free flight, and it's listed as a Special move. The sentence "Pit is the first and only character to be able to fly for limited amounts of time." written by Angry Sun, looks like his own personal interpretation. We have no idea on specific details, and how it compares to multiple mid-air jumps, other than the fact that it is NOT a passive ability to multiple mid-air jump, since it is specifically noted as a Special Move. I'm removing the sentence in question. - Zero1328 _Talk? 11:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well he is flaying in one of his Images, and it looks like he is molting . Maby there is somthing to that. Anubiz 11:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a special move. Kirby and Jiggly don't have special moves that allow flying. They can jump (technically not flying though), but Pit can fly around for a small time. Dark Ermac 11:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Maby it means that you just nead the stick to stear him. Anubiz 12:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you come up with is fine with me. Pit is technically the first to fly. The others just float several times in the air. Angry Sun 15:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Scond one to fly is Charizard. Anubiz 15:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

What does this have to do with Pit? -Sukecchi 15:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

But I don't think he's going to be a fighter. Angry Sun 15:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Charozard shoud be a fighter. Anubiz 16:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't belong on this page. Please keep the "I want ___" and "I think ____ should" out of here. Thanks~ -Sukecchi 16:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

When did Charizard come up in this topi-... Nevermind...

The "Wings of Icarus" allow Pit to fly freely through the sky!

In actuality, though, Pit is an angel who cannot ordinarily fly. After a while, he will fall, so be careful.

I think this clearly states that Pit can fly but follows after a certain amount of time. I do think we should wait for some more info before we put anything on Pit being able to fly though. Lyokofreak101 16:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

How abot "Pit can flay" and leave it at that. Anubiz 17:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

How about No. Clueless. Bluefire princess 17:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

leave the insults out of it, please.DurinsBane87 17:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

be civil, I didnt create this discussion for a "Yo Momma" battle.--User:Entei-Anubis

Hey Blue Princess. Keep out of it. You don't know what's going on.

How about "Pit is the first character to be able to fly freely"? Angry Sun 17:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Still too vague, why dont we just eliminate that little part for the time being until we know more about how his movement works.--User:Entei-Anubis

The website has officially named those huge-o moves as Final Smashes. And they're activated when you grab a Smash Ball. 84.13.127.26 09:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

Yeah, it was added about two minutes after the update. Gurko 10:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is a direct quote from the Super Smash Dojo Website;

"The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once.and only after obtaining an item called the Smash Ball, which is a precious item indeed.

The basic gist of it? I suppose you could say it's kind of like a powerful and personalised hammer. (Or maybe not...)

You can look forward to experiencing the glowing personality behind each of the many Final Smashes!" 88.104.53.108 11:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Ashfurball

how do we know that Kirby's Final Smash is his cook? i know he has cook, but how do we know it's the final smash? and the same thing with Link? King Kong taste like chicken 14:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Because they both used their respective Final Smashes in the E3 Trailer 84.13.127.26 14:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

This game will so Kill app's! (is that right?) Anubiz 14:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Put of curosity, what does it mean by the fact that they can be "performed but once"? I'm assuming it means a character can use one once a battle and not again that same battle. Vilerocks 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

One, Smash ball one finle smash. Anubiz 16:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

As Anubis said, I believe the equation is 1 Smash Ball = 1 Final Smash. If you look at the examples in the movie, for example, Link's Tri-Force Finale (I made the name up) then the capability to have an infinite number of these moves would be rididulous. On a side note: I believe Bowser's Final Smash (assuming he's playable) will be him transforming into Giga Bowser and rawking the opponents with a Giga Melee. Hence, Giga Bowser presumably would not be an opponent. Who will get the Giga treatment this time or will we have to fight "Metal Gear Solid"? 84.13.127.26 17:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Mojanboss

Please, no speculation. This page is only for discussing changes for the article. Speculation belongs in forums. Joiz ^A. Shmo 18:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me, I just don't waste my time with many forums, there's only one forum i'm a part of, and that's releated to CAPCOM games. Vilerocks

Mine is about Catgirls. Aneyway 1 ball 1 finle smash it is as sympie as that. Hope for you Mega man is in brawl. Anubiz 20:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Since mine are about Naruto and Halo 3 I doubt they will take any of my posts. Is there a SSB forum?

http://smashboards.com/ Take it here. -Sukecchi 20:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

My forum is OWNED and OPERATED by CAPCOM, all the administrators are emplyoees of CAPCOM, so the "forums are not a reliable scource" has a bit of a loophole, although that fact wasn't relevent to this discussion, ROFL. Vilerocks 21:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A forum will never be a reliable source. It isn't independent and they don't check facts. TTN 21:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Your spitting crap out now TTN.

That forum has official sources. THE PEOPLE WHO WORK AT CAPCOM!

Toho Kingdom has an inside source for Godzilla: Unleashed. And that would be Pipeworks Lead Designer Simon Strange. Angry Sun 21:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter who is there; it still cannot be used as a source. They need to published, not posted. TTN 21:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Bull freaking crap. I'm not listening to you TTN. You make crap up. You can't be trusted with anything. You should just leave now. Simon Strange posts on that board to reveal brand new NEWS on the Game. It doesn't need PUBLISHED. It just needs to be heard from someone who is an official source. And Simon Strange is an official source. Angry Sun 21:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read WP:RS. TTN 21:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Everyone nutral corans now! be cevil. Anubiz 21:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Geez... We don't need a temper here. He's right, Angry Sun. It doesn't matter if the person on the forum is in charge of a game or not. You can lie on a forum without any legal penalty. Now, I have no doubt that whoever is in charge is telling the truth, but legal precautions come first. A person is not allowed to deliberately lie in a published work. That's why it has to be in a published work in order to be sourced. You Can't See Me! 21:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Man we are in troble If I'm the meture one around here. :) Anubiz 21:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Tell me about it! :) You Can't See Me! 21:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Most of the poeple on the forums are just random joes who play the game, only the administrators are people who actually work for CAPCOM. So this particular does still have speculative junk around it, by the way, we've gone off topic havn't we? Vilerocks 22:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

At this rate, by the time this game comes out we will have people at each others throats with shivs. Nothing can corupt a good person like waiting for an awesome game. (Trust me, I went insane waiting for L.O.Z Twilight princess). --User:Entei-Anubis

Buddy, you haven't seen insanity until you see what people were like when the first ssbb movie came. Vilerocks 23:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Aloha to that. Anubiz 23:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

When I first saw it, I was running around my house screaming like an idiot, and i'm probably not the only one. Vilerocks 23:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I kissed a wlof, whene I hered of Brawl. Anubiz 23:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This, of course, begs the question as to whether there was actually someone who didn't freak out when they saw the movie. Vilerocks 23:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

My brother. 00:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please stop using this as a forum of general discussion. This is about the article, not random discussion. TTN 23:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, lets feature it. Anubiz 00:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WHAT are you talking about? -Sukecchi 00:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Lets make this a featured ardkal. Scorry that is the only thing i could think of to get back on topic. Anubiz 00:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

With a game so highly anticipated, it's suprisingly easy to get off-topic, even on Wikipedia. Vilerocks 00:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Leats ask IGN to name this "Most foumable game" or something. Anubiz 00:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Just don't comment unless it has to do with the article. It isn't that hard. For example, don't respond to this. TTN 00:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No one will respond, what kind of idiotic moron would respond to... oh, yeah, damn. Ok, i'm out of this discussion now, it can die for all I care. Vilerocks 00:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Aneyway. Anubiz 00:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is what I am talking about. Don't respond to everything. You are the largest offender, so please try to stop. TTN 00:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm traying to help. It is jst not working. Anubiz 01:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Shut it, all of you. I dont care whos right or whos wrong, but this isn't the place. Stop now. End. Of. Discussion. Especially you, Anubiz. Your the one causing all this trouble. And everyone else, please ignore him unless he has somthing to contribute to the article. Now, lets get back to our lifes. ~Kenny

Oh look at the IP trying to be all high and mighty. Look here IP. I don't have to shut it. Cause you aren't my boss. And you leave Anubiz the crap alone. He didn't do a freaking thing.

So do us a favor. Go away. Don't try to be a boss when you aren't. Angry Sun 01:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Will the website be updated during the weekend?(Saturday,Sunday)--User:Entei-Anubis

• Unfortunately not. It's only updated on weekdays Simon171717 18:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Rats Anubiz 21:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I have notcied Samus is described once in the picture in the top rwo as Zero Suit Smaus. She is also mentioned on line three as Samus Aran (in her pwer suit). Could a member fix this please? 72.93.19.189 00:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You read wrong. Not Shown Fox Wario and Samus. That is what it says. Anubiz 00:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It's listing the characters not shown, and Samus in her power suit can't be seen in the image. Powerslave (talk-contribs) 01:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)