This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Donald Trump Start‑class This article is within the scope of WikiProject Donald Trump, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Donald Trump on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Donald TrumpWikipedia:WikiProject Donald TrumpTemplate:WikiProject Donald TrumpDonald Trump articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Politics: American Start‑class This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force. United States Start‑class This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

It's extremely embarrassing that this article was allowed to be edited and Frozen in such a politically biased and incorrect state. It never should have been allowed to be phrased in this manner, since it is been shown to be true that he was indeed spied upon and therefore there was clearly no evidence to show that it was merely a conspiracy theory.

Please rectify this mistake immediately. There needs to be a way to allow editing and discussion around these types of things rather than just freezing editing of an article that is clearly wrong and salacious.

The article should say a "conspiracy directed at" president Trump, or something along those lines.

At the very least you must remove the righteous yet innacurate beginning and disambiguation headline as it is today. Justncase80 (talk) 01:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I Agree. If nothing else, the quotation concerns in the banner must be addressed, the grammar of the article must be corrected, and the information in the lede paragraph must be updated to reflect recent developments. This is impossible with the current protections as it seems that no Administrators or extended editors are willing to do the work themselves, or that those who are will have their contributions reverted within the hour. The status and treatment of this article reflects very poorly on Wikipedia as a community and genuinely makes me question the motives of its most influential editors. Not even the Special Counsel page has this level of protection. Do we have so little faith in the ability of Wikipedians to moderate their own content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 02:11, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Justncase80 and SK8RBOI: please read #If you want to redefine Spygate / If you think Spygate is NOT a false conspiracy theory - coming here without reliable sources explicitly mentioning Spygate is a waste of time. starship.paint ~ KO 02:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Starship.paint: Having now read the section you mentioned, how best to you believe we should integrate the sources mentioned by SIPPINONTECH? Are you prepared to make the necessary adjustments or will you allow this shameful article to remain in stasis? I reiterate: This article needs to be edited immediately. Can we continue to declare it a definitively "false" conspiracy theory if the AG is "concerned about it and looking into it"? "It" here encompassing the proposed new definition for the conspiracy theory known as "Spygate", which has yet to be accepted and incorporated into the article despite the provision of reliable sources that support this change.SK8RBOI 02:32, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @SK8RBOI: - we simply have to first discuss more on the alternative definitions on Spygate. We have to obtain consensus on how to include the other reliably sourced info. Only after alternative definition is included, then Barr's "think"ing is relevant. starship.paint ~ KO 04:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• @SK8RBOI:, based on the crazy patterns of editing on this talk page in the last couple days, we need to slow things down in order to establish a consensus, not rush into something in error. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Starship.paint and Muboshgu: Certainly I agree with the need to establish a consensus; my concern is that the current "consensus" was prematurely established and is at the moment grossly outdated, being founded on sources from a year or more ago, and is now enshrined by protections that preclude the ability of ordinary editors to correct it. People come to Wikipedia for information; this page is inaccurate and inadequate and cannot be modified, and now, as the topic becomes relevant to current events, you say it is time to slow down the correction process? I unreservedly disagree with that aspect of your proposal. What error do you fear?
• If you genuinely believe Barr's "think"ing (investigation by the US Attorney General) is a different and separate topic from "Spygate", would you support the creation of an new, independent article? Or do you believe this new information, derived from reliable sources, might be more relevant here? To be fair, we can always merge the two topics later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs)

• @SK8RBOI: - on a new article, the article needs to be specific about what it is talking about. There needs to be enough reliable source agreeing that they are talking about the same subject. Then the subject, and the article, will be considered notable. This whole talk page is overloading my brain, I can't recommend what to do, sorry. starship.paint ~ KO 00:00, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Starship.paint: What about "Illegal Surveillance on the 2016 Trump Campaign"? Plenty of articles talk about that without mentioning Spygate by name. If Spygate doesn't include in its definition all notable allegations re: illegal spying, then those allegations need a different home under a different title; they constitute parts of a broader topic that includes the narrowly-defined Spygate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 00:16, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• You'd have to find RS which document it. No "illegal" surveillance has been shown to exist. Also, the words "spy" and "spying" are being thrown around, often without mentioning Spygate, as a means to make the legitimate investigation into Russia's interference in the election and any possible connections to the Trump campaign look bad and illegal. Those investigations were/are legitimate, not illegal. They were never directed at the campaign for political purposes, but because the campaign was so deeply involved with Russians for no legitimate reasons, and they always lied about these secret meetings and contacts. That demands investigation, so it happened.

The only investigation that could be considered political was the production of the Steele dossier, and even then, Steele didn't know he was working for the DNC or Clinton campaign until much later. He was told to find out why Trump was so deeply involved with Russia, and that's when he found information that really alarmed him, and unlike the Trump campaign, he took that information to the FBI, which was the right thing to do. His actions were not political, but because of national security concerns. That's what motivated him to be against Trump. He saw Trump as a threat to national security, and history has shown him to be correct. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:32, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @SK8RBOI: - personally I would go with Allegations of illegal surveillance on the 2016 Trump presidential campaign, since they haven't been proven. If they are eventually proven, then Illegal surveillance on the 2016 Trump presidential campaign. Of course, this article would need to establish notability, read WP:GNG. starship.paint ~ KO 09:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Very fair points all around. Given the news coverage the last 2 weeks I'd hazard a bet they are notable or are at least becoming notable but I'll definitely look into it. Thanks for the suggestions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 22:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The attorney generals statements of this week are pretty credible and I have seen them discussed already in other discussions around this page, yet the editors are dismissing them. This is why there needs to be a meta discussion around not only the article but those guarding the false narrative it embodies.

Because the righteous tone of this page is far from accurate. This situation is not a clear cut "false conspiracy theory" and should have never been allowed to be classified as such, as it appears to actually have been mostly true.

If the attorney general says that he thinks that spying did occur, properly or not, then this article is inacurate and needs to be edited and the gatekeepers fighting against these corrections should be considered for dismissal or at least removed from political article moderation.

This is a major embarrassment for Wikipedia. Justncase80 (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

“it is been shown to be true that he was indeed spied upon” No it hasn’t. soibangla (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fresh start: Discussion of multiple titles

Let's see if we can make a fresh start here. The above discussion is a complete trainwreck, because the proposed new title was changed partway through, so that it's pretty much impossible to tell what version people are referring to when they say "support" or "oppose". By my count at least seven titles were proposed here. I'll list them and we can discuss them by number: what we support and how strongly, what we oppose and how strongly, and what we could at least accept. If people prefer they could rank their preferences. The whole idea is to have one section where it is clear what people are supporting and what they oppose. Some titles were proposed by one person but not taken up by anyone else, and I have omitted them, but people could add other proposals here if they choose. R2 mentioned and linked an RM discussion in February,[20] saying it obtained consensus to add "by Donald Trump". That brief discussion had four supports, one oppose, and two comments; not exactly overwhelming. I am hopeful we may be able to get a broader consensus here if we can stay on topic and be clear what we are talking about. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:25, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed titles for this article

1. Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump)

2. Spygate (conspiracy theory)

3. Spygate conspiracy theory

4. Spygate (political conspiracy theory)

5. Spygate (Donald Trump conspiracy theory)

6. Spygate (2016 United States presidential election)

7. FBI surveillance of Donald Trump campaign

People's choices

Please list ONLY your choices or rankings here, and discuss them separately below. Otherwise we will never be able to tell who supports what.

• First choice: Spygate (2016 United States presidential election)

Second choice: Spygate (political conspiracy theory)

Third choice: Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump). R2 (bleep) 23:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Spygate (political conspiracy theory). I know it is uncommon for me to !vote in an RM I've relisted; however, this is an uncommon RM, so I feel justified. There is no problem if the closer chooses not to count my rationale. I thought the title to which this article was previously moved, Spygate (conspiracy theory), was incomplete disambiguation for reasons given by another editor in this discussion. It needed more qualification, and "political" serves this purpose while maintaining a neutral balance. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  00:22, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 1. Spygate (political conspiracy theory), 2: Spygate (conspiracy theory), per my !vote above. – bradv🍁 01:11, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 2, 3, 4, 1, 5 in that order based on brevity, accuracy, and properly reflecting the sources per my comments above; given the nature of the topic, "conspiracy theory" is central to the topic and cannot be omitted from the title without implicitly endorsing a position that the sources are near-unanimous in dismissing. No support for 6, which implicitly gives the impression that it was a genuine scandal. Oppose 7 in strongest possible terms, since it falsely gives the impression that the surveillance Trump described took place, a position the sources are near-unanimous in dismissing. --Aquillion (talk) 01:56, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Spygate (conspiracy theory) as 1st choice; Spygate (political conspiracy theory) as second choice. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:12, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support 7 from among these choices. I think the scope of the article should be broadened to include all the facts and controversies concerning the pre-Mueller Crossfire Hurricane FBI investigation, for which there is currently no wikipedia article. I think that "Spygate" should be a single section in the article, and it should discuss Trump's unsubstantiated claims about the investigation, and should make it clear that 'spygate' has been used for various aspects of the investigation, from Trump's unsubstantiated claims to the mere fact that the FBI investigated the campaign. I'm working on a revised version of the article to this effect. Shinealittlelight (talk) 02:35, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 6 and 7 are the only NPOV options. Disambiguators should be concise and used strictly for the purpose of distinguishing articles that are otherwise of the same name. There is a bit of editorializing going on here. As Barr said, "spy" is a perfectly good English word. A properly constructed disambiguator would be Spygate (U.S. politics). Slithytoad (talk) 03:21, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

• I hope editors will remember that the purpose of a parenthetical is to disambiguate from other topics of the same name, i.e. other Spygates. As such, please bear in mind that Spygate (NFL) has actually received more RS coverage than the subject of this article and has been described as a conspiracy theory by various sources (ex: [21][22][23]). Also, although this Spygate is verifiably a conspiracy theory, there's no requirement that our article be labeled as such its title. As far as I know the practice of putting "(conspiracy theory)" in the article title is a purely Trump-era phenomenon. We have dozens of articles on conspiracy theories that don't have titles like that. R2 (bleep) 23:54, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• It seems to me that Aquillon is factually incorrect in saying that the campaign was not surveilled. All sources agree that the FBI sent a paid informant to four members of the campaign, and, under a FISA warrant, was surveilling Carter Page (after he left the campaign). There is disagreement and controversy about whether anything improper was done, of course. Shinealittlelight (talk) 02:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• No sources I'm aware of support the idea that Stefan Halper was a paid informant (a central element of the conspiracy theory), nor that he was inserted within the Trump campaign or that his purpose was to "surveil" it rather than to investigate Russian interference in general. Since Halper falls under WP:BLP and the idea that he was a "paid informant" is a serious accusation which absolutely no evidence supports, I've struck the relevant part of your comment. The fact that you brought up Page while admitting that he was not part of the Trump campaign at the time shows, I think, that you recognize the problem. As I said above, the sources are nearly unanimous that no surveillince of the sort Trump described occurred, and that his accusations were a baseless conspiracy theory; that is not something about which there is any "disagreement or controversy." (Nor, for that matter, are there any serious, independent sources alleging wrongdoing on Halper's part, so your assertion that there is "disagreement or controversy" about that are also groundless.) In short, I stand by my description and ask that you provide reliable, independent sources to back up your WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims - especially if you intend to keep saying things about Halper, who, again, falls under WP:BLP. --Aquillion (talk) 04:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Can someone please ping the participant in the previous discussion(s) so that they are aware that they may need to re-!vote? Abecedare (talk) 03:03, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do that tomorrow. It's bedtime here. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:44, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

“There was absolutely spying into my campaign,” Trump said Thursday in the Oval Office. “I’ll go a step further and say it was illegal spying. Unprecedented spying.”Phmoreno (talk) 14:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)^[1]``[reply]

Oh, well, if Trump said it that makes it true.^[2] – Muboshgu (talk) 14:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And the idea that it was illegal is, as the sources note, false — all of the appropriate steps to engage in a legal counterintelligence investigation into contacts with known agents of a hostile foreign power appear to have been followed, including gaining appropriate warrants from the relevant courts. So you've further reinforced that this is a Trump-generated conspiracy theory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• If Donald Trump were a newspaper he would utterly fail our WP:RS policy. In my opinion, he absolutely does not have “a reputation for fact checking or accuracy”. He even boasted about using “truthful hyperbole”. starship.paint ~ KO 14:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

starship, you're gonna love this one from the esteemed MPants:

"The president is possibly the single most unreliable source for any claim of fact ever to grace the pages of WP." -- MPants 04:57, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

That sums it up pretty well, and would easily get the backing of all professional fact checkers. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:56, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• BullRangifer - what about conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones...? starship.paint ~ KO 07:06, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Good question. Fact checkers don't seem to have paid as much attention to him, likely because he's so off-the-wall crazy (he says he has psychosis). Trump's falsehoods have been fact-checked very thoroughly, and in the same way as other politicians and presidents. He's simply off-the-charts bad. They have never encountered a more deceptive public person and have even created at least one new category of lies just because of him. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• More about that new category here and here: "Meet the Bottomless Pinocchio, a new rating for a false claim repeated over and over again". This is uniquely Trumpian. Normal people, and even "normal" big liars, don't repeat a debunked lie again and again, unless they are using the Big Lie propaganda technique: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." (Joseph Goebbels) Trump has often been accused of using this Big Lie technique (or would he say "biglier"? ), and his followers do indeed fall for the trick, unlike those who only use RS, hence the huge split in American politics and between editors here.

Here's a good article about his use of the Big Lie technique: When the Big Lie Meets Big Data. Many other RS connect Trump with use of the Big Lie technique, and now fact-checkers have created the Bottomless Pinocchio category for him. Nobody repeats thoroughly debunked lies the way he does. It's not normal, even for big liars, and his broadening and repetition of Spygate is just part of it. It started out as false, and gets more false with each repetition. Those who exist in a filter bubble fed by unreliable sources aren't even aware of what's happening to them. They seem surprised and get angry when confronted with what most Americans and editors here see as plainly common knowledge because they don't exist in that bubble.

While this is relevant to this article, this conversation is starting to get more relevant for the Veracity of statements by Donald Trump article, so have a good day. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:01, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• BullRangifer - no doubt, Trump is the least reliable prominent politician, certainly the person fact-checkers would agree as the most unreliable (because they check him). But to be the most unreliable person ever, that's beyond fact checkers. Alex Jones is definitely a public person as well. starship.paint ~ KO 08:20, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I didn't write "unreliable" public person, but "deceptive public person", of course referring to those who are notable enough to get fact-checked. The two men generally traffic in different types of falsehoods, but, like Alex, Trump has created and also pushed a number of conspiracy theories, some of them theories commonly accepted in right-wing circles, but he really went far astray in his June 5, 2018 tweet based on a theory from The Gateway Pundit, an extremely unreliable source. (I'm not sure if InfoWars is worse than the Gateway Pundit, but they are both extremely unreliable, and possibly blacklisted here.) That is described here:

"Trump, Fox News, and Twitter have created a dangerous conspiracy theory loop. The president tweeted literal “fake news” about the so-called “Spygate” controversy. The story behind the tweet is revealing — and scary." "Late on Tuesday, President Trump tweeted something that’s embarrassing even by his standards: an unfounded conspiracy theory that originated in some of the internet’s worst “fake news” corners."

This time Trump went even further down the rabbit hole in his attempts to convince his followers that he was the victim of illegal "spying". That's why we have this article. It's all a deceptive attempt to label legal, appropriate, and necessary national security investigations as "spying" and wrong. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, Trump and his sycophants still push that falsehood, and editors who do it should be topic banned. Nothing new there. We can include the fact that he still pushes the false claim, just as we update our documentation of his denials that there was Russian interference in the election, and especially that it was to help him. He will no doubt try to muddy the waters and try to classify the Russia investigation as spying on his campaign. That is not Spygate. That was a legitimate counterintelligence investigation of foreign interference in our election, which Trump welcomed. We have an article about that, and it's not this one. Don't conflate the two. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:58, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Whether proper or improper, the issue of surveillance of the Trump campaign has been widely documented."^[1]``Phmoreno (talk) 16:34, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Countersurveillance" =/= "Spying". Comey's right on that. This is a key distinction a lot of people don't seem to be understanding. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Phmoreno, are you serious? You just provided a source which contradicts your belief. Read what Comey actually says. He makes the point that there is a difference. They are not the same. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• No one is denying that there was surveillance of members of the Trump campaign. In fact, the whole Russian election interference campaign was started as a RICO investigation. Those suspected of crimes and treasonous behavior should be surveilled, and it was not political. It was a matter of national security. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:39, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We won't know for certain if it was politically motivated or not until after the Inspector General & Barr release their findings. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article again says in the first line that Spygate is a false theory. In support, three sources are given. None of those sources say that the theory is false. Rather, they all say that it is not supported by evidence. Except for one place: the Vox headline says that the theory is false. Other than that, all we have is that one of the pieces (the WaPo piece, which is an "analysis" piece--that's what you call an opinion piece when you don't want to admit that it is an opinion piece, I guess) compares Spygate to other examples in which Trump has made false claims. But even that piece never directly says that spygate is false, but says that it is unsupported. So, again, in the body of these three articles, the theory is never said to be false. Why then do we insist on saying it's false when this isn't supported by the available sources? Do you guys want me to explain the difference between "false" and "not supported by evidence"? Surely you understand that difference, right? Shinealittlelight (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why does your user page only consist of the character '!'? Also, why did you create a new section when there are already two sections about the same thing: #"false conspiracy theory" and #"False conspiracy theory" in lead? - MrX 🖋 20:12, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Response to your off-topic question. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:04, 13 April 2019 (UTC) [reply]

This is a page for discussion of improving the article, not my user page. The other sections were initiated to discuss whether the allegations are in fact false. This is an error; we don't need to decide that. We only need to decide whether the RSs support the claim that the "Spygate" theory is false. I have initiated a new section to reorient the discussion on that question. I've also argued that the sources do not support the claim that the theory is false. Shinealittlelight (talk) 20:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The dominant attitude on the talk page seems to be against the addition of new sources, and in general against the alteration of the article lede or body in any way, so it appears to me the article is doomed to remain poorly sourced, grammatically unappealing, unencyclopedic, and factually inaccurate into perpetuity. Or at least until the news cycle shifts. Is there any other way to resolve this inconsistency? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 21:05, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Assume good faith. There are a lot of new editors on this page, and they don't all seem to understand all the relevant wikipedia policies. This has caused a lot of unhelpful discussion. But I don't think anyone has addressed at this point the argument I've made that the sources for the claim that the "spygate" theory is false simply do not say that it is false. So let's see if anyone has a reply to that. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:08, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I admire your optimism! Yours is a good point to be sure, and should be taken seriously as it is a legitimate criticism of the encyclopedic quality of the article. Wikipedian principles are not being adhered to and this represents a problem, regardless of intention. But you have to wonder why this has not already been corrected. I recommend pinging Starship.paint as he seems to have had a substantial hand in the article's drafting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 21:32, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Assume good faith. There are a lot of new editors on this page, and they don't all seem to understand all the relevant wikipedia policies." - Funny, cuz some of these "new editors on this page", like the one right above this comment, appear to be quite versant in Wikipedia policy to the extentent that they see it fit to lecture others about it. Good faith isn't a suicide pact. We also have WP:DUCK.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:00, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Ping me if you ever get a response to your question, Shinealittlelight. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:00, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Atsme, SK8RBOI, and Shinealittlelight: - while yes, I wrote a lot of the article since the last time I checked, I don’t think I’m the editor who has been adding “false”, and I won’t be checking if I did, that’s too much work. Now, about your question on “false”... starship.paint ~ KO 00:03, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The Kessler source rates the “Spygate” allegation of May as Four Pinnochios. That, in his definition [24], refers to “whoppers”, which are gross untruths. This, the source is saying Spygate is false. starship.paint ~ KO 00:03, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• The Bump source says “We’ve seen this dance before... conspiracy theory ... false claim ... time and again ... now it’s Spygate”. To me, Bump is saying, this is the same as before, and in the situation of “before”, he made false claims. Therefore the logical conclusion is that this is also a false claim. We can’t have “seen this dance before” unless what is currently being seen is also “this dance”. That makes Spygate false. starship.paint ~ KO 00:03, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• The Vox source has “false” in the title. Is that reliable? I’m not sure, perhaps someone with more expertise could comment. Although, Vox is treated as a reliable source. However, there seem to be many other small phrases pointing to false. The subtitle: Stefan Halper, a professor and FBI informant, didn’t “spy” on Trump. A header: “The phony case that Halper was “spying” on Trump” elsewhere in the text: If you look at Trump’s rhetoric on the Halper case, you notice a few repeated assertions that aren’t borne out by the facts we currently have ... Trump’s misconceptions ... Trump is pushing a narrative on this meeting largely spun out of one right-wing commentator’s theory, one that bears very little relation to observable reality ... Trump is wrong about the Halper situation ... a ginned-up controversy Overall, I see Vox as saying Trump is wrong about the facts. That makes his allegations false. starship.paint ~ KO 00:03, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Personally, it seems that these sources are saying Trump’s allegations are false starship.paint ~ KO 00:12, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• When someone makes conspiratorial allegations of enormous consequence without evidence, particularly when it requires involvement from large numbers of people, it's a conspiracy theory. Has any conspiracy theory ever proved correct in history? Likely so. But that's rare. This particular conspiracy theory has innumerable adherents trying to find proof -- in vain. We must be honest here. If someone (particularly with a history of making stuff up) states something that is conspiratorial sans any evidence, and RS debunk these claims, let us be honest. Now, mayhaps we should use the word debunked instead of false. That adjective is not a "truth" word. But, we do need an adjective in the lead such that we are not a part of conspiracy peddling. O3000 (talk) 00:23, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• • Thanks for the reply, @Starship.paint:. I reply to each point.
    • The Kessler piece is currently not cited in support of the claim of falsity in the first sentence of the article.
    • Kessler says that "four pinocchios" means "whopper" and you're interpreting this to mean "false". I must say, this is from my perspective a bit tenuous. I have very little confidence that Kessler never applies "four pinocchios" to an extremely reckless claim that is totally unfounded but nevertheless not known to be false.
    • The Bump source compares Spygate to other claims that Bump says are false. He does not directly say that Spygate is false. I have little confidence about whether Bump means that Spygate is currently known to be false or whether he's just saying that, as in the past, it likely will turn out to be false. Bump just doesn't say.
    • My understanding is that titles (and subtitles) are not RS. They surely shouldn't be--they aren't written by the author typically, and they are written to grab attention, and are sometimes overly compressed. I'm open to further discussion here. I can't find the matter directly addressed in wikipedia policy.
    • At any rate, Vox is the most partisan source we're using, and it seems to me undue to place their partisan perspective in the first sentence without an in-line citation. They can't be the primary source here.
    • The Vox piece says: "Not borne out by the facts we currently have." This is exactly what I'm talking about: this is saying "unproven" not "false".
    • This remark means that "misconceptions"--which is a tricky word--probably means "conceptions that are at odds with correct standards of evidence" and not "conceptions that are known to be false".
    • And again, "...theory...that bears very little relation to obervable reality" is best interpreted, in light of the other statement, as saying that we don't have evidence for the theory.
    • You've provided an out of context and misleading quote with "Trump is wrong about the Halper situation". The full quote is "In some ways, though, it doesn’t matter if Trump is wrong about the Halper situation." Obviously this doesn't support your interpretation.
    • "Ginned up" may mean "made up" rather than "false".
    • As for O3K's remark, I don't think you're responding to my point, which is that the RSs do not say that the theory is false, but only that it is unfounded. They also do not say "debunked". What they say is that he hasn't got sufficient evidence for the theory.Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:40, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Shinealittlelight - I concede the point about the "if Trump is wrong about the Halper situation". I'm sorry about my mistake. I also concede the "gin up" point. I stand by the rest of my comments. The Kessler piece was present when I was writing my reply. Anyway, the word "false" is gone from the first sentence, it's now at the end of the lede, not by my doing. starship.paint ~ KO 03:48, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Starship.paint: No prob about the mistake; all this is very challenging, and I didn't think you did it in bad faith. Too bad you're not going to say why you're unpersuaded by each of the arguments I gave, but I understand that we're all busy people. I wanted to make a few other points about the Kessler piece:

• The Kessler piece oddly enough defines 'spygate' differently than we do in this article. Here's the passage in which Kessler defines 'spygate': President Trump, in a continuing effort to discredit the criminal investigation into his campaign’s possible links with Russia entities, has now seized on “spygate.” This refers to the news that the FBI obtained information from an informant — Stefan Halper, an emeritus professor at the University of Cambridge — who met with at least three members of Trump’s campaign staff suspected of having links to Russia.
• Awkwardly, he actually seems to think that spygate in his sense is in fact not a conspiricy theory but true! For in his sense the term only refers to the claim that Halper met with some folks in the Trump campaign, and that's known to be the case.
• In any case, Kessler doesn't apply four Pinocchios to spygate in either his sense of the word or to spygate in the sense in which we're using the word in the wikipedia article. Rather, the quote in this piece where he mentions four pinocchios is this: While Trump claims “large dollars” were paid to Halper, it’s unclear what he received for his help on the counterintelligence probe. Halper was paid a little over $1 million for separate work for the Defense Department’s Office of Net Assessment between 2012 and 2017 — and about 40 percent of the money was paid before Trump entered the presidential race. But no dollar figures for his assistance in the Russia probe have been reported. This latest claim, clearly worthy of Four Pinocchios... In other words, he is saying that the claim that Halper was paid large dollars is "worthy of four pinocchios" because it is (not known to be false but) unsupported!
• So takeaway: this Kessler piece does not support the claim that spygate (in the sense of the wikipedia article) is false, and it also vindicates my earlier points about the loose way in which he applies 'four pinocchios' to theories that he regards as both reckless and totally baseless, but that are not known to be false. That leaves us with the Vox piece and the Bump piece, neither of which call the theory false, as I've explained. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:04, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I didn't reply to all of your points because I mostly disagree with those interpretations, and I already explained my stance above, so I would just be repeating myself, or I have no comment. I'd reply to your recent Kessler critique later. starship.paint ~ KO 14:03, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't think it is desirable, or even possible, to seriously debate what a professional journalist means by "whoppers", when there is a clear and obvious definition for the word. When we further see that the 'pinnocchio' scale (again an obvious reference to falsehoods) specifies "three pinnocchio" as the realm of "mostly false.", I can't imagine how there could be any doubt where this takes "four pinnocchios", except further into the same realm. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:18, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument appears to be with Kessler, not me. He says that the claim that Halper was paid large dollars for his assistance is a four-pinocchio claim even though "no dollar figures for his assistance ... have been reported." Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:17, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. Wikipedia doesn't care if I, or you, take issue with Kessler. It only cares that we reflect accurately what he says. And he says "four pinnocchios" which is a "whopper" of a falsehood. His thinking in reaching that conclusion is not for me, or you, to dissect. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 20:26, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not dissecting. He clearly says that the claim that Halper was paid a lot of money is worthy of four pinocchios because "no dollar figures ... have been reported". He clearly does not say that spygate is worthy of four pinnochios. To report what he says, we do have to read it. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:10, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, another point relevant to the Bump source. In another piece here, [25], Bump says that the IRS targeting controversy and the ATF gunwalking scandal were conspiracy theories. Should we use this piece to change those titles to "IRS targeting conspiracy theory" and so on? Or can we instead recognize that Bump's "analysis" pieces are really opinion pieces? Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:22, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Excellent breakdown Shinealittlelight, thanks for doing the dirty work. I would just like to point out that a lot of the arguments made in defense of including the word "false" in the introductory paragraph were rebuffed when made in defense of including Barr's testimony to congress within the article body. If the source does not say "Spygate", even when the subject matter seems to be the same topic, then, I'm told, it cannot be included in the Spygate article; if the source does not say "Spygate is false", even when the implication seems to be a debunking of Spygate, then the descriptor "false" should not be used. A more consistent way to include the same information while still excluding the AG's testimony would be to note that claims central to the Spygate conspiracy theory were rated as "Four Pinnochios" by Kessler. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 19:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Except that the claim to which Kessler gives "four pinnochios" is not central to the Spygate theory as we are using 'Spygate'. He gave four pinocchios to the claim about Halper recieving lots of money. That's no part of spygate as we understand it in the article (namely, the theory that the Obama administration placed a spy in the Trump campaign).Shinealittlelight (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hm! Good point, can't argue with that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 21:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Shinealittlelight - sorry, I said I would reply to you further on the Kessler piece, here is my reply: I think Kessler's award of Four Pinocchios is wider than you describe it to be, than just the money paid. In my view, the Four Pinocchios is for Trump's entire May 24, 2018 tweet at the top of the article - this includes a debunking of Trump's first sentence Clapper has now admitted that there was Spying in my campaign. starship.paint ~ KO 10:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's just not what it says. He applies four pinocchios to what he calls "this latest claim". The tweet of May 24 was not what he was referring to; he was referring to the latest claim Trump had made--mentioned just before that--to the effect that Halper had received a large payment. Your reading is just not reasonable, I'm sorry. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:58, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Shinealittlelight - half o the article, [26], before the background info Here is a guide to the various "scandals" about the probe that Trump has promoted since he became president..., is a refutation of Trump's May 24 tweet, which includes the payment portion. The last sentence of the refutation part, Democratic leaders, after a closed-door briefing from the FBI on the informant, said they were shown no evidence that supported Trump's claim of spying. is a further clue that Kessler wasn't only intensely focused on the payment portion of the claim as you are representing. It doesn't say no evidence that supported Trump's claim of payment of a spy/informant. starship.paint ~ KO 14:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

starship.paint, I agree that he talks about a lot of other stuff in the article, and he generally has a negative assessment of Trump's basis fo his claims. But his specific application of "four pinocchios" is unambiguously to the "latest claim" that Trump made about a big payment. You can try to make a different argument that, aside from his application of "four pinocchios," he saysa that Spygate is false. But I'm addressing his application of "four pinocchios". If you want to go on to make this other argument, it would serve clarity for you to first concede that his application of "four pinocchios" is not to Spygate but to a more specific claim about payment. Or, if you think that he is applying "four pinocchios" to spygate, you need to explain how, when he says "latest claim," he could possibly in this context be referring to Spygate. Shinealittlelight (talk) 15:09, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Shinealittlelight: my analysis of the source is that the “latest claim” is the entire May 24 tweet. I think that the Clapper sentence, as part of the tweet, is also part of the “latest claim”. Since you think it only refers to a portion of the tweet on payment, I think we have to agree to disagree on this matter. starship.paint ~ KO 15:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the matter of payment was an important part of Trump's Spygate allegation:

"If the person placed very early into my campaign wasn't a SPY put there by the previous Administration for political purposes, how come such a seemingly massive amount of money was paid for services rendered - many times higher than normal ... Follow the money! The spy was there early in the campaign and yet never reported Collusion with Russia, because there was no Collusion. He was only there to spy for political reasons and to help Crooked Hillary win - just like they did to Bernie Sanders, who got duped!" Donald Trump, Twitter, May 22, 2018

BullRangifer (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, Trump said that. But the article currently defines "spygate" as the theory that "the Obama administration planted a paid spy inside [Trump's] 2016 presidential campaign in an effort to help Trump’s rival, Hillary Clinton, win the general election." So if this is how we're understanding 'spygate', then Trump's additional claim about payment is just that--additional to the claim that we're calling spygate, not a part of it. Shinealittlelight (talk) 15:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then we need to fix that definition, because Spygate is based on Trump's claims, which include the payment element. We can't define Spygate on just part of Trump's claims at the time. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to improve it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:36, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No RS uses 'spygate' with the specificity you're now suggesting, and which you've implemented without consensus. I can now see that there's a huge problem with the definition of 'spygate'. It is defined in a number of non-equivalent ways in the RSs, and Wikipedia now defines it differently than all of them. I'm going to elaborate when I get a chance, probably tomorrow. But my basic suggestion is that we need to have a subsection devoted to spelling out the varying uses of 'spygate', and the article itself needs to be on a more general topic--something like "Allegations of illegal surveillance on the 2016 Trump presidential campaign"--since there is no such single topic as 'spygate'.Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I only looked at the first source cited, and it already does support the claim. [27]. Trump and Republicans say that Halper was a spy planted in the Trump campaign by the Obama administration “for political purposes” — in other words, to hurt Trump’s electoral chances. The president has dubbed this “SPYGATE,” ... Trump has even expanded on the theory in his tweets, arguing Monday night that Halper was a paid operative working for Clinton. ... There is no evidence that Halper was paid some extravagant fee for his work as an informant, and it’s not clear what Trump is referring to. starship.paint ~ KO 14:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The quote provided does not say that Halper was paid a massive amount of money, which is part of how you've now idiosyncratically defined "spygate" in the article. That edit is totally out of step with RS as far as I can tell, and there is no consensus yet. Seems important to build a consensus before making an edit like that, given that people like me can't revert and follow the normal BRD process. Shinealittlelight (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Trump himself said the spy was paid a “massive amount of money”. Vox embedded that tweet from Trump saying that in the article. Then Vox replied about no evidence of extravagant fee. So that’s really part of Spygate too. starship.paint ~ KO 15:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• He was paid a million dollars, and Trump thought that was a huge amount.

I don't know of any RS which imply that it was about some other person than Halper. Trump's first uses of the term have that specific context. That he later muddies the waters by throwing around the terms "spy" and "spying" are another matter. He's an expert at sowing confusion. It has served him well in business as a short-term strategy, but has, of course, been terrible as a long-term strategy, because it undermines his credibility, and even the banks learned they couldn't trust anything he said. The same applies now to his international relations. No one trusts him, and by extension, they no longer trust America.

You want a "subsection devoted to spelling out the varying uses of 'spygate'." That would be a good idea, but I suspect what you're seeking (lots of material) is varying uses of the words "spy" and "spying" applied by Trump and supporters to the various aspects of the Russia investigation, which includes Spygate and several other things. Only the use of those words, as applied to Halper and Spygate, would be on-topic here. A different article could cover their general use of the words "spy" and "spying" for those other things. We must stay on-topic. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:29, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm saying that even if you just look at how NYT, WaPo, CNN, and other such sources gloss the actual word 'spygate', you find substantive variation that affects how we are deciding the "false vs unsupported" issue, as well as how we decide various other things. I don't have time to make a complete case, but here's just one example: [28]. Here we have spygate glossed without the big payment part. Again, there are loads of other examples. They often say nearly the same thing with slightly different levels of specificity, but you can find RSs that say Spygate is just the theory that there was improper spying. Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

can we at least include language like this under an April 2019 subsection?

Trump’s Spygate allegations were widely debunked at the time, but gained renewed interest in April 2019 after attorney general William Barr testified to Congress that “spying did occur” on the Trump campaign, although his characterization of “spying” was ambiguous and he declined to provide specific evidence. He stated he was assembling a team to examine the matter, although the Justice Department inspector general had been looking into it and related matters for some time and was expected to release his report within weeks

soibangla (talk) 18:10, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I support this. Neutrally worded, accurate, current information that is bourn out by the available sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 19:43, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• That looks fine to me too. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, totally missed the "spying did occur" error. He said "I think spying did occur". – Muboshgu (talk) 21:43, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Looks good to me. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:08, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Not sure "widely debunked at the time" really works. There was no evidence presented for such debunking. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Maybe "viewed as false" (by RS) at the time would work better. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Strike that. They are still viewed as false by RS, so those words are misleading and should be left out. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Weigh in at False vs. Unsupported— Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 21:32, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Maybe just "Trump’s Spygate allegations gained renewed interest in April 2019 after attorney general William Barr testified to Congress that “spying did occur” on the Trump campaign, although his characterization of “spying” was ambiguous and he declined to provide specific evidence. He stated he was assembling a team to examine the matter, although the Justice Department inspector general had been looking into it and related matters for some time and was expected to release his report within weeks." to keep it simple. How many times do we need to clarify this is a conspiracy theory?— Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 21:35, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That works for me. soibangla (talk) 01:24, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Again, my problem is that we need a source for the Trump’s Spygate allegations gained renewed interest... bit before we could go anywhere else. A non-opinion piece (so we can cite it for statements of fact) which mentions Spygate by name (so the connection isn't WP:SYNTH.) And if / when we have such a source, we'd have to rely on its framing and tone. --Aquillion (talk) 01:32, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'd hesitate to use AG Barr’s Testimony Reignites ‘Spygate’ Debate soibangla (talk) 01:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Clearly not, according to WP:RSP. The Daily Caller was deprecated in the 2019 RfC, which showed consensus that the site publishes "false or fabricated information". starship.paint ~ KO 01:51, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I know. soibangla (talk) 02:06, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is the process for whitelisting a single article from a deprecated source? Would that require another RfC? Some of the DC's articles are quite objective, even if the bulk of the publication ranges from heavily sensationalized to totally unverified. This particular article doesn't look like it deviates from the current discussion at all, and it's comprised mostly of quotes. If this is the only source keeping up with the discussion let's run it through the gauntlet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 00:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

With all the sources for a story like this; why would you want to whitelist an article from such a poor source? Find a good source. O3000 (talk) 00:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read the article? It's a good article.
(Why would anyone ever want to whitelist an article from a poor source? Yet there are still provisions for that.)
If there were another article, from a reliable source such as Newsweek for example, I would prefer to use that one. However, this ^[1] article clearly reflects the current information surrounding the controversy, and shows that people do in fact consider Barr's investigation to be related to Spygate, and that Barr's testimony to Congress has reignited the debate. The DC is not great, but this article is fine. It reflects everything already reported on cable news and is one of the only sources in print that does so. It deserves consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 00:57, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Having been forced to read it – it looks quite disjointed. But, that hardly matters as it simply makes no sense to say that we should use a deprecated source because it’s nowhere else. If it is only in a deprecated source, that alone suggests we shouldn’t use it. O3000 (talk) 02:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SK8RBOI, you ask: "Why would anyone ever want to whitelist an article from a poor source." There is one situation where we do that. Let's say Rush Limbaugh wrote some typically nonsensical stuff on a very unreliable website we have blacklisted. If that statement was worth quoting in his own article, as an example of his beliefs on the subject, we could make an exception for that specific use of the article. It's a one-time thing. I've seen that happen. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would using the Daily Caller, a website that promotes conspiracy theories, to define a conspiracy theory then not also be a reasonable move? I only suggest this because we're not trying to establish the Spygate claims as factually true, we're trying to establish that these additional claims are also part of Spygate, or are becoming part of Spygate. Our favored sources do not use "Spygate" to refer to these new claims, although the claims are clearly related to Spygate, but the Daily Caller (among other far less reliable sources) actually does. I think that out of these sources that have updated the conspiracy theory, the DC is the most palatable, or is at least the least objectionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 22:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In articles about themselves, we can quote content from the unreliable source, as long as it isn't "unduly self-serving". Outside of articles about themselves (the unreliable sources or persons), we only use RS, never unreliable sources. When RS quote or refer to what unreliable sources say, then we can quote the RS about it.

I have sometimes found content in unreliable sources that was really sharply written (like WOW!), and I wondered if it could be used. To deal with that, I have searched to see if RS have picked up their specific wordings. Sometimes I find a RS in that way, and can thus justify entering content which is a fringe view normally only found on unreliable websites.

It's a due weight matter. We weigh due weight between various RS, but never between RS vs unreliable sources. We don't pit them against each other. When a RS describes a conspiracy theory, we document it, but give it less weight. We must, after all, document the theory, even when it's false. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:00, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hold up, please! Soibangla - where are the sources? Also, I would say add “allegations of May 2018 and June 2018” to the first sentence. starship.paint ~ KO 00:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much all of it is here. We can add "of May 2018 and June 2018,” but wasn't that already established earlier? soibangla (talk) 00:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Soibangla: - first, you've sourced the easy stuff. I think your source doesn't cover "Trump’s Spygate allegations ... gained renewed interest in April 2019 after attorney general William Barr testified to Congress" Second, yes it was established earlier, but apparently many people still have their own idea of what Spygate is, so no harm to reinforce our message that it's the May/June 2018 stuff that is being debunked. starship.paint ~ KO 01:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Spygate wasn't in the press much for months before Barr testified, as far as I see, but I could be wrong about that. Just the sudden meatpuppetry here seems to confirm renewed interest. soibangla (talk) 01:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Soibangla - we can't use meatpuppetry here to write an article, unless this is covered by reliable sources. starship.paint ~ KO 01:51, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm aware of that. soibangla (talk) 01:58, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have sources using the term 'spygate' specifically in reference to Barr's opinions? I don't feel we can include it without that unambiguous connection, since that's the focus of the article. --Aquillion (talk) 01:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support either one of the proposed. I just read an May 21, 2018 article in WaPo (yeah, I know I'm way behind) wherein they identified one of the FBI's "secret informants" (isn't that what a spy is?) so it appears that Barr is technically correct but maybe not politically correct. If we need sources to verify "secret informant" following are 3 more that covered the counterintelligence part naming Stefan Halper before WaPo released his name: WSJ, NY Mag, and Axios. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:14, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those sources don't mention Spygate or Barr at all. We need to stay on topic, not just WP:SYNTH up whatever random articles editors here feel are cool. I mean, I'm glad you personally got something from those articles, but we can't Atsme, a Wikipedia editor, read these articles and was of the opinion that they meant Barr was correct, because, they argued, isn't an informant who gave the FBI information about possible Russian influence basically exactly like the Obama administration planting a paid spy? We can't do that - you need sources specifically stating the points you want to make (ie. ones mentioning Spygate by name, and ones unambiguously connecting those to Barr.) Then we would have to rely on the interpretation of reliable sources. --Aquillion (talk) 01:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Either seem fairly reasonable. Heck could pick just about any source scattered around this talk page to support it as well. At this point it looks like there is consensus to include. PackMecEng (talk) 01:54, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• No, there is no consensus to include when the sources haven't even been decided yet. Are we going to add the text without sources? If it's so easy to provide the relevant sources, why don't you do it, PackMecEng? starship.paint ~ KO 01:56, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Well two oppose and six support is good enough. Sure I will bite.[29][30][31] Also yes opinion pieces are perfectly acceptable for certain things such as for subjective things like gaining renewed interest. PackMecEng (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @PackMecEng: - vote numbers can't beat WP:V + WP:OR. In my view, none of these articles cover "Trump’s Spygate allegations ... gained renewed interest in April 2019 after attorney general... " Can you point me to specific quotes that back up this phrase? By the way, per WP:NEWSORG (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.. starship.paint ~ KO 02:11, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Gained renewed interest is a subjective term. Are you saying this whole incident did not spark new interest in the subject? That would be a rather odd things to say considering the amount of sources that came from him talking about it. Also the sources satisfy verifiability so not even an issue there. You asked for sources that support the text and several have been provided by me and others so I assume there is no issue now correct? Otherwise this is getting disruptive. PackMecEng (talk) 02:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @PackMecEng: - you've missed my point entirely. I know that there are sources on Barr's testimony. That's not in contention. I am saying that if we want to write that this incident sparked interest, we must have the source to say it. My question is which reliable source says that there has been renewed interest in Spygate in April 2019 due to Barr's testimony? Quote, please? starship.paint ~ KO 02:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• As everyone else is mentioning, it is the number of sources presented. If that is your sticking point what would you suggest for alternative wording that satisfies your personal view of police? Even though consensus says it is fine. PackMecEng (talk) 02:40, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• It' not an issue of wording. Were I to remove the phrase in contention (Spygate allegations ... gained renewed interest after), then the whole paragraph would lack a link to this article on Spygate. starship.paint ~ KO 02:54, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When googling "spygate trump" before April 2019, the last reference to it I see is in June 2018. Do we really need to provide a RS to prove that it has gained renewed interest? soibangla (talk) 02:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• In my view, we definitely need a reliable source, otherwise that's really original research. starship.paint ~ KO 02:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How about [32]. It says Barr's remarks caused pundits to talk about all the spygate-related issues.Shinealittlelight (talk) 02:22, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm going to quote that part here: Barr’s comments kicked up a lot of dust in the world of political punditry, dust that Trump is happy to keep aloft. Conservatives and Trump supporters have seized on the semantic question of what constitutes “spying” as a rationale for demonstrating that the Trump-Barr presentation of what happened is accurate ... That to me, seems to be saying that Barr generated interest in "spying". However two links are missing: that "spying" is equal to "Spygate allegations", and that there is "renewed" interest. starship.paint ~ KO 02:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. He goes on to talk about how Trump is glad to use this situation to encourage pundits to argue about whether his campaign was targeted. Shinealittlelight (talk) 02:40, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another quote that might help: As with “spying,” arguing that his campaign was targeted serves a robust political goal. Instead of talking about how a candidate who was fighting the Republican establishment was forced to welcome help from sometimes-sketchy outsiders, Trump would instead rather talk about how the Deep State was out to get him. And so, inevitably it seems, we do.Shinealittlelight (talk) 02:47, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Shinealittlelight - Again I struggle to equate that quote you just listed as a source for to "Trump’s Spygate allegations ... gained renewed interest in April 2019 after attorney general... ". I'm starting to question my sanity here. starship.paint ~ KO 02:48, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

starship.paint, let me try again. After summarizing Barr's testimony and the reactions of Trump and conservatives in the media, Bump says "But before we dig into the specifics of what Trump and his supporters are arguing, let’s review what we know happened." He then details all the conceivably spying-related occurrences over the last couple of years, and he argues that this does not add up to "spying on the campaign". He closes by suggesting that Trump will nevertheless continue to talk about this, since for political reasons he wants us all to debate whether there was spying on his campaign, and we will "inevitably" continue to do so. He thus presents an overall picture according to which Trump and conservatives in the media are successfully using Barr's testimony to reignite discussion of whether the campaign was spied on. Shinealittlelight (talk) 10:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Shinealittlelight - notice that in your reply, you do not mention Spygate. Instead, you refer to conceivably spying-related occurrences over the last couple of years. Reading the article, this does not seem to be equivalent to Spygate, but something wider. Bump talks about Manafort and Flynn, both of whom aren't involved in Spygate. Bump talks about the FISA warrant on Page, which isn't related with Spygate. It talks about the FBI investigation into Papadopoulos, which isn't Spygate either. As for your comment about inevitably, per this quote: Trump would instead rather talk about how the Deep State was out to get him. And so, inevitably it seems, we do. - I interpret it as Bump saying as we discussing how the Deep State is out to get Trump. That, too, is related to, but not exactly Spygate, as this article is presented now. However, this article you presented may be useful in other ways, from Trump's comments themselves. starship.paint ~ KO 08:55, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Exactly. This article isn't about any uses of the terms "spy" and "spying". It's about a specific use by Trump, made in a specific historical context. We must stay on-topic. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:41, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Soibangla: - in a point unrelated to my above arguments, per Associated Press - a significant point is that Barr never said there was illegal spying -> exact quote from Barr -> "I am not saying that improper surveillance occurred. I am saying that I am concerned about it and looking into it." Furthermore, your text says Barr testified to Congress that “spying did occur” when Barr actually said: "I think spying did occur". The below is my suggested change: starship.paint ~ KO 03:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

... attorney general William Barr testified to Congress: “I think spying did occur” on the Trump campaign, although his characterization of “spying” was ambiguous and he declined to provide specific evidence. Barr then clarified that he was "not saying that improper surveillance occurred", but that he was assembling a team to examine the matter ...

My preference would be to avoid a slippery slope of qualifying his remarks beyond "ambiguous," as he was kinda all over the place, and it invites others to come back with "yeah, but he also said..." which is why this topic is so contentious and seemingly deadlocked, but I suppose your alternative is reasonable. soibangla (talk) 22:59, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: Aftermath section in light of Trump's April 2019 comments

This Washington Post source, [33] provided by Shinealittlelight, quotes Trump's reaction to Barr's comments,Trump agrees with Barr and says: “There was absolutely spying into my campaign. ... in my opinion it was illegal spying, unprecedented spying ... There was spying in my campaign ...” starship.paint ~ KO 09:23, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, Trump's allegation, while he not explicitly connected to Spygate, seems related and similar enough to his past Spygate allegations to warrant a mention. Here's what he alleged previously: If the person placed very early into my campaign wasn't a SPY ... The spy was there early in the campaign ... counter-intelligence operation into the Trump Campaign As such, I propose an Aftermath section on this related development, where you would include this comment by Trump, and also you can include Barr's comment as proposed above, both as related developments, but not exactly Spygate. Thus, the following proposal: starship.paint ~ KO 09:23, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On April 10, 2019, attorney general William Barr testified to Congress: “I think spying did occur” on the Trump campaign, although his characterization of “spying” was ambiguous and he declined to provide specific evidence. Barr then clarified that he was "not saying that improper surveillance occurred", but that he was assembling a team to examine the matter, although the Justice Department inspector general had been looking into it and related matters for some time and was expected to release his report within weeks. (paragraph break) On April 11, Trump wholeheartedly endorsed Barr's comments, declaring: “There was absolutely spying into my campaign. ... in my opinion it was illegal spying, unprecedented ... There was spying in my campaign, and [Barr's] answer was a very accurate one.”

PackMecEng, pinging you because you earlier asked for alternative wording that would satisfy me. This is it. starship.paint ~ KO 09:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh well I might as well just tag everyone who has participated in this discussion so far: @Soibangla, Shinealittlelight, Aquillion, and Atsme: and @SK8RBOI, Objective3000, BullRangifer, and Mr Ernie: and @Phmoreno: who earlier raised this quote on the talk page. starship.paint ~ KO 10:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for the ping starship. I think this is a worthy inclusion and well worded at that. The only criticism I have is the "Aftermath" header; I think something in the vein of "April 2019 Developments" (but more well phrased) would be more appropriate. We can't be certain that this is the aftermath, in that the controversy has ended and these developments are occurring only in the wake of the conspiracy theory. "Ongoing controversy" would be similarly inaccurate since we cannot be certain that the story will continue to develop. To say they are developments and they occurred in April 2019 is unexciting but appears to be relatively safer. Just my 0.02. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SK8RBOI (talk • contribs) 21:55, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @SK8RBOI: - the whole problem is that the reliable sources are not explicitly connecting this to Spygate, the closest one is a USA Today opinion source. Had the sources said "Barr's comments are related to Spygate!" and "Trump's comments are related to Spygate!", we wouldn't have this mess. This is why I'm putting it in Aftermath. starship.paint ~ KO 00:58, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• And yet it isn't an aftermath to Spygate. It's just another use of the words "spy" and "spying".

Spygate does not refer to all alleged spying on the Trump campaign, and not all alleged spying on the campaign refers to Spygate. There was surveillance of specific individuals as part of the investigation into Russian interference, and that ended up including the whole campaign, including Trump. He is the chief suspect, the spider in the center of the web, whose spiders do nothing without his orders, or at least his approval. This was still not a politically motivated investigation, but was part of the investigation into Russian interference. Trump and his campaign members were obviously deeply involved with Russians and Trump clearly benefited from the interference. This included many secret meetings (with Trump literally trumping Don Jr and Kushner to issue a false press report about the Trump Tower meeting), and then lying repeatedly about all of it. All of this created justified suspicions that they were party to the interference and made all the investigations completely justified and legitimate. Never before has an administration and president acted in this manner.

So should this even be included here? Not if it isn't clearly about Spygate (Halper). This is about "Other uses" of the terms "spy" and "spying" by Trump and Co., which is a different article, actually a disambiguation page I'm working on. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is unreasonable because as Starship.paint made clear, a neutral observer can read Trump's new comments as being a continuation of his previous accusations. Trump's core accusation is that he was spied on, and that such spying was illegitimate and partisan in motivation and effects. His allegation of details has changed, however the core accusation has not. Clearly, as referenced by the primary accusers who use the term (Trump, Bongino, Solomon, Carter, Nunes, etc.) the term "SpyGate" is used to denote illegitimate spying on the Trump campaign and/or presidency by members of the Obama administration. Parts of that are as yet unsubstantiated (e.g. calling the predication "illegitimate") and are still under investigation or criminal referral by Barr, Nunes, and various journalists. Parts are well substantiated. It's all fair game for encyclopedic mention. Wookian (talk) 16:38, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Wookian: I'm going to correct your depiction of my remarks: in my view, Trump's April 2019 comments are sufficiently close to his Spygate allegations that this is an Aftermath. In my view, just "spying" is not close enough, because I agree with Aquillion that we can't lump every spying-related bit of commentary into the article. But, since he said "spying in/into my campaign", I do think that is close enough. starship.paint ~ KO 02:10, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A (hypothetical) neutral observer might choose to hold that opinion, though I'd tend to disagree - based on my search for sources earlier, the only people making that connection are decidedly non-neutral opinion pieces. But we can't cite hypothetical neutral observers, nor can we rely on opinion pieces (especially ones from non-WP:RS outlets) to make a connection in the article voice. If we want to connect something to Spygate in the article voice, we need a non-opinion source doing so directly. Without that, we can only use "Spygate" to refer to Trump's May 2018 statements - we can't just lump every spying-related bit of commentary under that label ourselves. --Aquillion (talk) 17:21, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Besides, Trump, Bongino, Solomon, Carter, Nunes, etc. are not RS. They are just using the term "spying" to rebrand ("Trump privately said that he wanted "to brand" the informant as a "spy" as using a more nefarious term than "informant") the legitimate and sometimes court-ordered and non-political investigations into his campaign, which were all part of national security matters. No one is denying that investigations into Trump's campaign occurred, and if Trump wants to rebrand those investigations, we can't stop him. That doesn't change the fact that at one point in time, he started using the term Spygate in a specific manner to refer to Stefan Halper's contacts with three campaign members. That is the original Spygate accusation, and "we can't just lump every spying-related bit of commentary under that label ourselves." -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:14, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Aquillion and BullRangifer: Confusions like these appear to be a persistent problem on this talk page. Perhaps a notice should go at the top to disambiguate it, especially for certain editors which may spend more time reading here than the mainspace? --Calthinus (talk) 17:42, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. I have created a FAQ. Feel free to improve it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 23:32, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Ahrtoodeetoo: - you removed the link to the FAQ, so I am linking it here: Talk:Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump)/FAQ. starship.paint ~ KO 02:02, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My creation of that FAQ was in response to the request above to prevent confusion. It disambiguates the various things that "spy" and "spying" may refer to. Without it, we'll still go in circles and allow fringe theories and rebranding attempts by Trump and Co. to confuse us. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:54, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not convinced that the Spygate theory is limited to the Stefan Halper claims, as the FAQ indicates. That appears to have been true in May 2018, but by June 2018 Trump was apparently referring to Spygate to refer to political spying more broadly. For instance, this June 5, 2018 NY Mag Intelligencer source, which we cite 4 times, says nothing about Halper or informants. And this Vox source, which explains the origin of Trump's June 5 tweet, indicates that it was based on allegations by the Gateway Pundit that the Obama administration had planted "multiple spies." No mention of Halper. R2 (bleep) 00:08, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Gateway Pundit is not a RS. They have just expanded on Trump's original conspircy theory about Halper by making it "multiple spies". Still no evidence for that one. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:49, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The source even says: "Assuming that is what the texts mean, nothing in the messages makes any reference either to the Trump campaign or to Russia." It's not relevant here on several levels. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:00, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Ahrtoodeetoo: - it's not limited to Halper, and our article does not claim so, see the third paragraph of the lede. The June 2018 claims (I'm correcting your obvious typo of 2016 above) are also referring to Spygate, and they are covered in the article. The Vox source reporting on the June 2018 claims says: "The best way to analyze “Spygate” is not as a partisan dispute, but rather a conspiracy theory". They are viewing it as one big conspiracy theory. starship.paint ~ KO 01:59, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Barr may not have been talking exclusively about Halper, because he said "I’m not talking about the FBI necessarily but intelligence agencies more broadly”

He may have been talking about this: Still, the wiretap order enabled FBI agents to obtain and read older emails in Mr. Page’s account, including when he was working with the campaign. The inspector general, Michael E. Horowitz, has asked those involved in that effort why they did not use a so-called filter team to review the messages and screen out any sensitive but irrelevant information before adding them to the Russia investigation case file. However, there appeared to be no rule requiring such a step, according to a person familiar with the inquiry.

So they didn't just intercept Page's traffic, they hacked his email to read his history. And maybe (?) the NSA actually did the hacking and gave the FBI the results, hence "intelligence agencies more broadly.” If the FBI accepted Jason Miller saying “He’s never been a part of our campaign. Period.” when Page was summarily jettisoned after the Isikoff story the previous day, and didn't use a filter team because of that, Barr may be Monday morning quarterbacking by asserting, despite what Miller said, that Page was named to the campaign in March and was there until September, so looking at Page's emails from March thru September should not have been authorized — in his view. soibangla (talk) 02:13, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And just because the words "spy" and "spying" are used, does not mean they are necessarily talking about Spygate. Most of the time they aren't. Let's not start making that mistake here. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:12, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "Barr may not have been talking exclusively about Halper", because he never mentioned Spygate, but just used "spying". Not relevant here. Let's stay on-topic. That FAQ really is necessary. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:51, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BullRangifer, I agree an FAQ is necessary but my concern is that it describes Spygate too narrowly. I'm not suggesting that Spygate encompasses all spying allegations, god no. I'm saying that it seems to be broader than just Halper. I support reinserting the FAQ once it's consistent with the sources. R2 (bleep) 16:48, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The reliable sources use ‘spygate’ in many different ways. Does ‘spygate’ include the claim that an FBI informant was “in” or “implanted in” or “infiltrating” the campaign? Or is it just the idea that an informant was collecting information from the campaign? Does it include the claim that the use of an informant was politically motivated to help Clinton? Sources conflict on these things. Some reliable sources, oddly enough, define ‘spygate’ as a claim that it is in fact plainly known to be true! (For example, see the second example below.) None of the reliable sources seem to define it the way the Wikipedia article presently defines it, as including a claim about big payment. Here’s a list of the many varying definitions in the reliable sources (note that none of them define it the way we currently define it in the article, to include a claim about a large payment):

The New York Times says that Spygate is the claim that the Obama administration “planted” a spy “deep inside” the Trump campaign to help Clinton win.

The Chicago Tribune says that Spygate is the claim that the FBI obtained information from Halper, who met with three members of Trump’s campaign.

NBC News says that Spygate is just the claim that the FBI used an informant (presumably on the Trump campaign).

MSNBC says that Spygate is the claim that the FBI “infiltrated” his campaign by “implanting” a “spy” in his “operation”.

ABC News says that Spygate is the claim that the Obama Administration used a spy to “infiltrate” the Trump campaign.

Vox says that Spygate is the claim that Halper was a spy who was “implanted” in the campaign to help Hillary.

Vox elsewhere says that Spygate is the claim that the FBI put a spy in the campaign.

Newsweek says that Spygate is the claim that the FBI spied on the Trump campaign.

In addition to these pieces, there are a bunch in which ‘Spygate’ is used but unclearly. Often with no definition at all. But in many cases, the source will describe several paragraphs of facts, and then say “this is what Trump calls Spygate,” which leaves it unclear exactly what is supposed to be included. Here are what I take to be the unclear sources: [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], [41].

In light of all this, I want to suggest that ‘Spygate’ is not uniquely defined by reliable sources. As a result, I think that the article should be titled something like “Controversies about FBI Surveillance in the 2016 Presidential Campaign”. We should then have a sub-section that details the many varying uses of ‘spygate’ to refer to different parts of this controversy, including several uses on which it refers to a conspiracy theory. Shinealittlelight (talk) 16:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I share your concern to some extent about the ambiguity of the conspiracy theory, but (1) I disagree with your proposed solution, which seems to blend fringe subjects with non-fringe subjects, and (2) I think you're misconstruing some of these sources. To take an example, you say that the Chicago Tribune source says that Spygate is "the claim that the FBI obtained information from Halper, who met with three members of Trump’s campaign." This isn't accurate. The source says that Spygate refers to this claim, not that it is this claim. The source makes clear that Spygate is false because Halper didn't "spy" on the Trump campaign because "spying" requires the use of tradecraft to obtain information. I believe you similarly misread the NBC source as well. R2 (bleep) 16:57, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, when you adjust for those inaccuracies, it appears to me the sources you've linked are pretty consistent in their portrayals of Spygate, namely that the FBI under the Obama administration implanted a spy in the Trump campaign. R2 (bleep) 17:04, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good point R2 about "refers to" the claim--I agree with you that I was interpreting this, and perhaps mistakenly. To say exactly what Kessler means by 'spygate' in that article then requires us to make some inferences, and I doubt everyone here is going to agree on the correct interpretation. But thanks for saying that you share my general concern to some extent. I definitely recognize that some of my descriptions of what the sources say may be controversial or mistaken, but I think that even though that's true, my general point about ambiguity is right. What do you think should be done? My suggestion was just that--a suggestion--and I'm open to other ideas. I just think the article currently gives the impression that 'Spygate' has some clear unambiguous meaning, when it really doesn't.Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:06, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with R2. Yes, the term is ambiguous. Partly because conspiracy theories are often ambiguous as they are built upon sand and tend to morph. Partly because Trump tends to change his stories. I think we need to include the various claims. I think the suggested title: “Controversies about FBI Surveillance in the 2016 Presidential Campaign” is highly misleading as it suggests wrongdoing on the part of the FBI and legitimizes Spygate. The title “Spygate conspiracy theory” is more accurate and concise. Or, theory could be plural. O3000 (talk) 17:08, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We just moved from "Spygate (conspiracy theory)" in March after a move request (initiated by moi) and we're not going back (with or without parentheses) without explicitly overturning that consensus. R2 (bleep) 17:15, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We appear to be on track toward that move. O3000 (talk) 17:19, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Read why we moved away from that title in the first place before jumping on the train. Not a single person who recently stated support for the move back has said anything about football. R2 (bleep) 17:21, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I missed your second point, R2, before posting my last comment. Two replies. First, if the understnading of 'spygate' that you suggest is right, it differs from what is currently in the wiki article. Second, I disagree that the sources are consistent. Does it matter whether there was a political motivation? The NBC source says that the FBI just used an informant, not that the informant was part of the campaign. Does the spy have to be in the campaign? (Does 'embed' mean the same as 'in' or 'inflitrate'?) Etc. O3, do you think all the uses I detailed above count spygate as a conspiracy theory? Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Those differences are pretty small. All conspiracy theories come in a variety of flavors. R2 (bleep) 17:19, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I disagree. It's highly relevant to whether the theory has been shown to be false. The more the theory builds in, the less credible it is, and more conspiracy-theory-ish. If it's just the claim that the campaign was spied on (per NBC news and Newsweek above), that's way harder to show it to be false.Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:22, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And yet...sources like the ChiTri article say it was false because it alleged spying, not because it alleged implantation in the campaign. R2 (bleep) 17:26, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So you disagree, then, with several other editors who have argued at length above that it is important to represent spygate as including, not just the claim that there was spying on the campaign, but that the spy was a member of the campaign. This is my point. Everyone is using the term differently, and this includes varying uses among those who think the the theory has been shown false. Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:33, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to get into a point-for-point on whom I agree with and whom I disagree with on specific points. I believe that if various sources are describing slightly different variations on the theory then we should describe those variations to the extent they're reliably sourced and noteworthy. R2 (bleep) 17:38, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like we have a disagreement about how important the differences are. I do not agree that they are slightly differerent, but I have argued that they are substantive differences that interact in a complex way with the discussion above about whether spygate has been shown to be false.Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:41, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any inconsistency between these sources and our basic definition of Spygate. They are just different ways of wording it. They may emphasize or mention (and not mention) different aspects, but they don't contradict any part of the full Trump tweets, which are the basis for the conspiracy theory. They are all describing the same basic ideas. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:22, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So if I say, per NBC and Newsweek, that spygate = the claim that the campaign was spied on by the FBI, you agree with that description of it? Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, because that is a basic part of the Spygate accusation by Trump. It's not the whole thing, but certainly a basic part of it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:28, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Er, '=' doesn't mean 'is a part of'.Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:30, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are again misrepresenting the NBC source. R2 (bleep) 17:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the quote I was going on: Trump has been referring to the FBI's use of an informant as "spygate". Seems like what I said, but maybe there's another way to read it. Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Shinealittlelight, I want to make sure I understand you correctly, since you seem to be focusing unnecessarily hard on a very specific detail to the exclusion of what isn't said there, even though that is the unspoken context. Are you implying that Trump and NBC are talking about a different person than Halper? If so, then that would indeed be a very different defintion, but I know of no RS which implies otherwise. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:09, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly don't know what Trump and NBC had in mind in this regard. I find it plausible that they mean Halper, but many people have thought that Trump was not referring to Halper but to someone who was "deeply embedded" (NYT) or in some sense a member of the campaign. Some have claimed on this very page that the theory is false for this reason--that he wasn't just saying Halper did what he did, but that he was saying something else for which we have no evidence, that there was an unidentified spy "inside" (whatever that means) the campaign. I myself don't know what they mean. I only maintain that there are many different claims going under the title of "Spygate" in the reliable sources and even in our discussion here. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Right, the NBC source refers to the use of an informant, not just spying. R2 (bleep) 17:58, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I think those terms are equivalent here, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, it seems to make no difference to what we were talking about. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. Trump chose to call him a "spy" as it has a more onerous implication than "informant". That's just rebranding by Trump. It's still about the same person. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:11, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Without singling out an individual editor I would like to say that narrowly defining what spygate should be could be pursued by editors to restrict it to details Trump got wrong to continue to call an actual event a conspiracy theory. I think you will be wise to pick your battles carefully and let this one go. We all know Trump shoots from the hip often with little factual basis but he knew something was going on, and further investigation reveals he wasnt wrong on spying. Reliable sources claiming a CT at the time do not make this a historically significant story. I suggest a review of the Dewey beats Truman story. The newspaper was in error. They werent conspiracy theorists. IN SUMMARY I wholly agree with the OP and his suggested renaming.Batvette (talk) 00:13, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"he knew something was going on, and further investigation reveals he wasnt wrong on spying" - ummm, no.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:29, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment, Batvette. I agree that people here are trying to narrowly define 'spygate', and I agree this is a problem. However, if some RSs say that 'spygate' means the theory that there was a spy who was a member of the campaign, and they claim that this is an unproven conspiracy theory (e.g., the NYT), then we should say that in the article. (That's how Wikipedia works, right? We say what the RSs say.) The problem is that not all the RSs define 'spygate' narrowly and call it a conspiracy theory. In fact, some define 'spygate' as a claim that is now known to be true. So what's wrong is not that we should ignore some RSs, but that we should pay attention to all of them, and not pick and choose the ones that fit a certain political narrative. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:35, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

-gate means scandal. What RS claim this is a scandal, as opposed to a conspiracy theory? Are you claiming the conspiracy theory is not?O3000 (talk) 00:43, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some RSs use 'spygate' for the claim that the FBI spied on the Trump campaign and do not call it a conspiracy theory. See, for example, the Newsweek article linked above. On the other hand, the NYT (for example) uses 'spygate' for an unproven theory that they call a conspiracy theory. So different RSs use 'spygate' in substantively different ways. The article should not pretend otherwise. Shinealittlelight (talk) 01:02, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Let's break down the original Spygate accusation by Trump. Trump made the following accusations without providing any evidence:

1. "The person", labeled a "spy". (This is about ONE person, who is Halper.)
2. Put there "very early" into campaign. (Therefore NOT about ANY later instances of supposed "spying".)
3. Placed "into" the campaign. (Not just snooping/talking to three members, with no attempt to infiltrate and join the campaign.)
4. Put there by Obama administration. (IOW, the FBI, CIA, Justice Dept., whatever...)
5. Put there "for political purposes" (As opposed to the national security purposes of the Russia investigation.)
6. Paid a "massive amount of money". (Halper was paid money as an informant over a period of many years, mostly before the Trump campaign.)
7. Put there "to help Crooked Hillary win".

Not every description in RS is going to mention every single aspect, but that doesn't put them against each other or mean they are wrong. They just aren't being complete, which isn't always necessary for a news story.

We should just stick to history and base our definition on the Trump origins. That it may have morphed later is another matter. Such morphing could be added to this article under sections like "Further developments", or be the basis for new articles.

When the terms "spy" and/or "spying" are used to refer to other articles, it should be added there, not here. For example, when "spying" is referring to Carter Page's FISA warrant surveillance, then it should be dealt with at the Carter Page article, not here. We should not allow the deliberate confusion spread by Trump to influence us and cause us to fold every instance of legal investigation and surveillance into this article, because it doesn't belong here. This article isn't about ALL alleged spying, IOW all investigations that might tangentially have touched him and his campaign. It's about three specific instances of intelligence gathering by Halper.

Trump was talking about Halper, and we need to limit this article to that topic, and any further developments shouldn't change that basic definition. As mentioned above, such developments might be dealt with in section(s) further down in this article, but they don't change the basic and original definition. History locked that one down when Trump made his false accusations. Later history gets dealt with in later sections and/or other articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:05, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That might have been the theory in May 2018, but then Trump tweeted a different, broader variation on June 5. According to Vox, that second tweet was based on a theory by the Gateway Pundit involving more than one informant implanted into the trump campaign. Isn't the subject of this discussion identical to "Scope of theory" above? How about we consolidate these discussions? R2 (bleep) 18:15, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This comes under the category of "further develoments" I mention above: "any further developments shouldn't change that basic definition. As mentioned above, such developments might be dealt with in section(s) further down in this article, but they don't change the basic and original definition.... Later history gets dealt with in later sections and/or other articles."

What do you think of that way of including it here? -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Normally we would never include anything from The Gateway Pundit, but, because Trump made it notable (or was it just Vox which made a synthesis?), we can include it, but give it very little weight. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The tweet you cite is a primary source in this case. Furthermore, as has been said of other sources many times on this page, it does not refer to 'spygate' explicitly. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Let's break down the original Spygate accusations by Trump

Several problems exist. First and foremost its intent seems to be a political hit piece, intended on ridiculing the President. While reliable sources declared two years ago it was a conspiracy theory, that was based upon info available at the time. The reliable sources declaring it a conspiracy theory have been superceded by new sources reporting spying. The spying was not exactly what Trump claimed in the past but the underlying issue is being proven true. So maybe we should reduce the article to "Trump got the details wrong". Which makes it not significant enough to even exist. Instead people are pushing for this article to exist probably to suggest thst spying never happened and that Trump is crazy for suggesting it did. Batvette (talk) 19:28, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds more like a reason to improve the article than to delete it. However, if after reviewing our deletion policy you still feel the article should be deleted, then you're free to nominate it for deletion via the standard AfD process. R2 (bleep) 20:33, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, a more neutral approach than deletion would be to recognize that 'spygate' is now being used by reliable sources in ten or so substantively different ways (see discussion of this above). We could then improve the article's neutrality by writing it in a way that reflects this fact, with one sub-section devoted to the relevant conspiracy theory as reported in some reliable sources. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:10, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not spam every discussion with your view, which you've already amply communicated. This discussion is about deletion. R2 (bleep) 21:16, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, the discussion was both about deletion and about a contrary suggestion, due to you, that the article should be improved rather than deleted. I then chimed in along the same lines to suggest a way of improving the article that you disagree with, but that--given Batvette's remarks--Batvette might find congenial. So my remark was on target and not out of order at all. The talk page is long, and newcomers to the discussion may benefit from brief pointers to previous parts of the page. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think shinealittlelight has the right idea. My feelings that instigated the comment about deletion are that its really no longer a conspiracy theory, (possibly a matter of Trump claiming erroneous details) and that label "conspiracy theory" continuing to be placed upon the idea that Trumps campain was under surveillance is being revealed to be untrue. Is there an article on the issue of actual spying/legitimate surveillance on the campaign? Perhaps a merge with that is in order? If not then improvement of this article might start with renaming it "surveillance of the trump campaign" because Trumps belief in it 2 years ago had some basis in reality, and it may have had legitimate law enforcement status so spygate might be inappropriate. We dont know that yet. In summary deletion is surely premature but as it stands the article is just wrong, appearing as a hit piece which ignores new facts with endless available sourcing.Batvette (talk) 23:48, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also had the thought of a separate article with a broader focus. But then I realized that some reliable sources use 'spygate' with exactly this broad meaning. Again, see my list in the above section, especially CNN: [42]. So I tend to think that this article is the one where all this material belongs, together with a disambiguation of the main uses of 'Spygate' in the reliable sources, including the way it is sometimes used for a totally unproven claim (e.g., the claim that a spy was a member of the Trump campaign). Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a broader article with any conspiracy theory aspect a subsection. But I have to inject, does Trump being in error at the time about some details make it conspiracy theory? At that time perhaps but with current breaking news I dont think so. 2 years ago his claims were greeted with cynical criticism. Now not so much. Can other editors see precedent in other historical events that reliable sources can be proven wrong in time? Or are they intent on preserving a past time when they could ridicule a President-like establishing the article as a time capsule, instead of moving on when more facts come to light? Batvette (talk) 00:25, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is this "current breaking news"? Sources please.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:27, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm hearing a lot of sound and fury here, but no reliable sources. What has changed? O3000 (talk) 00:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sources that were once considered reliable can absolutely be proven wrong. But to prove them wrong you're going to have to find new reliable sources that contradict them directly without using inference or original research to fill in the gaps. I hate talking about "sides" of a Wikipedia dispute, but those new sources are what's been consistently missing from your "side" of the debate that's been raging on this page for the past few weeks. Present the sources--again, with no inference or original research filling in the gaps--and you will find me to be much more sympathetic. R2 (bleep) 15:45, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Very well put, R2. -- BullRangifer (talk) 22:13, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000, Ahrtoodeetoo, BullRangifer, and Volunteer Marek: - from somewhere above in this page, Newsweek 1, Newsweek 2 (same author), and Axios. See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Axios_(website) for Axios. This is the total of what was produced from the tons of discussion before the Mueller report was released, after it was released I didn't read this talk page much. And before anyone brings up that USA Today piece, that is an opinion piece only reliable for the author's opinion and not for statements of fact. Anyway, we need to address these sources in the article. This is a legitimate concern since there are sources, few as they may be (until someone provides more). Maybe an Other definitions section, but certainly not expanded with sources that do not mention Spygate. starship.paint ~ KO 12:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• All three are RS and use the word Spygate to refer to Trump's use of the word. The first Newsweek article cites Tucker Carlson, who is never a RS (and he's that part of Fox News we all agree is not reliable), so not worth citing. Besides, he's only talking about generic "spying" on the Trump campaign, not Spygate specifically. The second Newsweek source mentions James Comey's comments about Barr's use of the word spying, and how he has no idea what Barr is talking about. There are many other and more detailed sources about this, some which might be better to use if we choose to discuss Comey's reaction to Barr. If so, then Comey's remarkds are enlightening. The Axios source uses the word spygate, but only in passing when mentioning Barr's comments: "The so-called "spygate" scandal, which relates to alleged FISA abuses by the intelligence community, has been frequently promoted by defenders of President Trump. It has not been corroborated."

I don't see how we can use any of these sources, unless we open up the article to discuss the use of the words "spy" and "spying" by Trump and Co. to refer to ALL the legal counterintelligence investigations that involved the Trump campaign as part of the legal investigations into Russian interference. That's how Trump and his supporters are now using the terms. In #TrumpWorld, "spying" (especially after Barr's usage) has become a catchword for any type of potentially critical investigation of Trump, no matter how necessary and legal, just as "fake news" has become their catchword for any negative reporting about Trump, no matter how true. They are pushing the idea that Trump is above the law and must not be investigated or criticized.

Do we want to go there with the words "spy" and "spying"? Maybe so, because there are plenty of RS which discuss this, but I don't think this article is the place to do it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "We" do not all agree that Tucker Carlson or any part of FoxNews is officially deemed unreliable.--MONGO (talk) 17:22, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I meant "we" as in "Wikipedia RS" etc. There is agreement there that only the official Fox "News" portion of Fox News (that doesn't even make sense, but so it is) can be considered a RS, and even then with care, since there is, with few exceptions, no clear separation between their "news" reporting and their GOP spin doctoring. The exceptions are Shep Smith and 2-3 other actual journalists who report honestly and with balance, sometimes chastising Hannity, Carlson, and others for their dishonest commentary. Obviously, the other commentators are always considered RS for their own opinions, but since most of them, including Hannity and Carlson, are extremely fringe, we don't usually use them for anything but at their own articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The articles cited define 'spygate' in their own voice, and they do so differently than it is currently defined in the wikipedia article. The fact that 'spygate' has no fixed definition in RSs should definitely be reflected in the article. These are not to be relegated to an "other definitions" section, either. These definitions are as legitimate as the NYT definition, which, by the way, also differs from how the wikipedia article currently defines it. Shinealittlelight (talk) 16:02, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm....actually, the logical place would indeed be an "Other uses" section. We could easily populate it with may RS which use/abuse the term "spygate". -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Shinealittlelight: - let me explain to you why we should be relegating them to "Other uses". Here's an example, let's say the Washington Post defines Spygate as people liking fishsticks. Let's then say we have 1,000 articles on people liking fishsticks, but they do not even mention Spygate in it. We're not going to give equal credence to the people liking fishsticks definition, and then write an equal amount of the article on people liking fishsticks, because there aren't many articles that both report people liking fishsticks and call that Spygate. This is the situation we are facing now. Lots of articles on spying, very few (as provided so far) on spying as Spygate. starship.paint ~ KO 16:23, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Almost no two sources that talk about spygate by name define it the same way, and none of them define it as it is currently defined in the wikipedia article. So the way you describe the situation is not, as I see it, in line with what the RSs say. We can't define it ourselves based on our reading of Trump's texts, and we can't cherry pick the NYT or Vox as a definitive source. Sure, if there was broad agreement and a few outliers, then that would make sense, but that's not what it looks like to me. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Shinealittlelight, you can't ignore what RS and Trump said about this subject when it was accepted as notable enough for an article here. Then it was ONLY about what Trump tweeted, and what RS said about that. That is history, and it makes no difference if RS never again mention that. We will always preserve it, and we don't allow later commentary to erase the history and original definition of Spygate. That will always belong in a "Background" or "Origins" section, and all else since then in an "Other uses" or "Something else" section. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:23, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even the early sources differ on the correct definition. Moreover, no early source (or any other source) defines 'spygate' as it is currently defined in the Wiki article. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not decided on this, but I think the best approach is to lay out Trump's tweets and describe the various ways reliable sources have summarized them. We shouldn't say or imply that the sources are in conflict, as even that's unclear. Best of luck drafting! ;p R2 (bleep) 19:28, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. But it seems to me that this would require dropping 'conspiracy theory' from the title of the article, since only a few RSs call it that. Shinealittlelight (talk) 20:25, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The title is being addressed in a separate RfC. Repeatedly bringing it up here isn't helpful. R2 (bleep) 21:20, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

R2, I did not repeatedly bring it up here, but rather mentioned it one time. I was simply pointing out what seemed to me a consequence of your proposal that you might not have noticed, and also in effect inviting comment on whether you think the issues are separable. This whole talk page is out of hand. I think we all see that. Frankly, your proposal, which which I agree, doesn't belong in this section give that this section is called "Why this article should be deleted". But I realize that we're doing our best with a difficult topic with lots of developing ideas, and acting like my comment alone is somehow out of place seems unfair to me. Shinealittlelight (talk) 22:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I think I misattributed something Batvette wrote as coming from you. My mistake. In any case, I don't think my proposal would require us to remove "conspiracy theory" from the article title. I don't think it's an accurate to say that any of the reliable sources say that Spygate is not a conspiracy theory. R2 (bleep) 22:39, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No apology necessary. I appreciate your help and you clearly have more experience than I do, so thanks for taking what I say seriously. I agree that no RS says it isn't a conspiracy theory. However, the sources that do call Spygate a conspiracy theory say exactly what theory they mean. Meanwhile, sources that do not call Spygate a conspiracy theory do not use 'Spygate' for the theory identified as a conspiracy theory in the other sources. So, by my lights, that seems to suggest that some sources use 'Spygate' for a theory that they regard as a conspiracy theory, and other sources do not use it for that theory. The article should reflect that. Shinealittlelight (talk) 22:55, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we can draw that inference. All of the sources could simply be describing the same exact same theory in different ways, and some could be calling it a conspiracy theory, while others are are simply silent on that question. R2 (bleep) 23:13, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's very plausible. But hey, maybe you're right. Unfortunately, we don't have an RS which tells us whether you're right, so we can't assume that you're right. So we have to go with what the sources explicitly say. And many of them explicitly say that spygate is something other than the theory identified by some sources as a conspiracy theory. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, they don't explicitly say that. Hence the conundrum. R2 (bleep) 23:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, you're right, I misspoke. What I meant was this. What's said to be a conspiracy theory is that the Obama administration got a spy "inside" the campaign for political reasons. There are other sources that say nothing about "conspiracy theory" but identify spygate with something other than this specific allegation. And while your speculation that they really mean the same thing is possible, we'd need something other than your opinion on this. We'd need an RS which said that they two other sources meant the same thing. But there is no RS of course. So the default is to simply report what they explicitly say. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:31, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your position. How are you proposing we handle the multiple sources that call Spygate a conspiracy theory? Omit the words "conspiracy theory?" R2 (bleep) 00:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm suggesting that we report what the RSs explicitly say. So we should say that sources differ in how they use the term 'spygate', that some use it for a very specific theory they call a conspiracy theory, and that others use it for various broader allegations of spying on or surveillance of the Trump campaign. We should then give a few examples of the varying uses. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:29, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should go ahead and start a new section here on this talk page with exactly what you are proposing. Show your proposed text, references, subheadings, etc. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:40, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Shinealittlelight - maybe use your sandbox, transfer this article there, edit it as you wish, and let us have a look at it when you're done. starship.paint ~ KO 04:55, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Will do. Probably take me a few days. Shinealittlelight (talk) 10:52, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Spygate is not a conspiracy theory. If there was surveillance of any kind on anyone associated with the campaign then it was spying. The fact that people want to redefine what spying doesn't change the normal language used by virtually everyone (spying) when someone is surveiled. This title (and the fact that there is a debate about this) is just more evidence that Wikipedia is not a reliable source of factual information. A conspiracy theory is a theory (an unverified hypothesis) that someone has conspired to do something. Spygate is something that actually took place and is verified. People associated with the Trump campaign were spied upon by government agencies. The former agency heads have themselves said that there was surveillance under oath. Donald Bowers (talk) 16:12, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion doesn't trump reliable sources. WP:RS WP:OR O3000 (talk) 16:38, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Donald Bowers, you're missing the point. Nobody denies that surveillance occurred. This article isn't about any and all surveillance that included Trump and his campaign. It's about specific, limited, and false claims made by Trump. He engaged in conspiracy theory creation and mongering. Yes, Halpern did contact three campaign members, but it was later in the campaign, and he never joined the campaign.

Yes, other surveillance also occurred, whether Trump (and you) misleadingly call it "spying" or not, but it was legal, not for political purposes, and was part of the necessary and proper investigation of the Russian interference in our democracy and elections. If Trump and his campaign hadn't had over a hundred documented, secret, and lied about contacts with Russians, for no legitimate purpose, but mostly proven to be about the election, then Trump wouldn't be involved in this at all. It's his own fault. Now the Mueller Report contains many proven instances of collusion with Russians, but apparently not quite enough to meet the standard of "beyond a shadow of a doubt" necessary for a court case. Mueller deliberately didn't try to create an impeachment case, but instead collected plenty of evidence and passed it on to Congress. Now we'll see whether they take that evidence of collusion and try to impeach Trump. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:35, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit notforum-y, but Donald Bowers, I think BullRangifer's main point is that there are reliable sources saying that Spygate is a conspiracy theory, and there are reliable sources saying that the surveillance that's known to have occurred was not "spying." To complicate matters, different reliable sources describe Spygate in different ways. This is why we're struggling. But to insist that spying did occur and that editors here are trying to "redefine" spying, all without pointing to any reliable sources, isn't very helpful. R2 (bleep) 16:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Editors here are not redefining anything. We are maintaining the original definition of terms. Halper was an "informant", not a "spy". The ones claiming a "redefinition" of terms should be looking at Trump, his followers, and some sources. Legitimate investigations of foreign nationals are "spying", but not of Americans. That was legitimate, non-political, national security work, and, in this case, involved ONE informant who asked three campaign members a few questions.

Trump admitted he was rebranding (redefining) "informant" when he chose to call Halper a "spy". Ever since then, accusations that legitimate investigations have been "spying" are misuses of the term for political propaganda purposes. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:56, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It appears we're entering new territory:

[43]

So now Trump's use of "spying" includes the UK intelligence community. Yes, they and about four other allied foreign intelligence agencies were indeed spying (as in real spycraft electronic surveillance) on Russians (as in doing their job of "spying on the enemy"), when they all overheard conversations between Russians discussing their meetings and conversations with Trump campaign members about how they would seek to win the election for Trump. That really alarmed our allies and they immediately alerted the FBI and CIA that the American electoral system and democracy was under attack by the Russians, with particpation from Trump campaign members.

Should we include this in (our) expanded coverage of Trump's expanding use of the terms "spy" and "spying" on his campaign? I'm pretty sure RS will cover this. This is now an international matter. Any professional intelligence agency espionage which incidentally captures actions by Trump and Co. seems fair game. This blames the car for hitting the pedestrian who suddenly placed themselves in the path of a car and a traffic cam at the intersection showed what happened. The traffic cam was "spying" on the pedestrian who was in the wrong place. It's the camera's fault. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:30, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• BullRangifer - your posts are really long. starship.paint ~ KO 16:15, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Brevity has never been my strength. There is a background history to what Trump tweeted, and that means we need to think about how to deal with this new territory. That's all. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No mention until reliable sources connect it to Spygate. R2 (bleep) 21:38, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I suspect Trump would have to redact before the information is reported in reliable sources, but why would he do that when he has the culprits by the short and curlies? Shtove 20:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Come again? R2 (bleep) 05:33, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

April 2019

I suggest to add a paragraph about the April 24th, 2019 statement from the AG. How about the draft paragraph below? I tried to include both point of views (POV), with their respective sources.

On April 10, 2019 Attorney General William Barr declared that he thinks "spying did occur" against Donald Trump's campaign. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she didn’t trust Barr.[1][2][3][4]

Francewhoa (talk) 09:50, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We have discussed this quite a bit above. Because it's off-topic, it has engendered some controversy. The question is: Should we expand the article to include any and all later mentions of "spying" by Trump that are not directly related to his original, false, Spygate conspiracy theory about Halper? We're still discussing that issue. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@BullRangifer: I believe this is in response to @Volunteer Marek: removal of the material citing per talk.[44] I have not been following the page closely lately, is there consensus on talk for removal? PackMecEng (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From the timing, it appears this was written immediately before Francewhoa added the content to the article, which was removed by VM the next day. There is no consensus for including this content yet, at least not that I know of. We are still discussing whether to add such material, which would radically change the scope of the article.

When I commented above, I hadn't noticed that it had been added. I saw his comment as a proposal ("suggest") for discussion, not an announcement he would do it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:05, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Almost every discussion on this TP focuses on the word "spygate" rather than the broader scope of what spygate entails. Dismissal of the Attorney General's statement as being off-topic doesn't make any sense to me or quite a few other editors, and has taken on the appearance of stonewalling to keep a particular POV out of the article rather than encouraging productive NPOV discussion. At the very least, it's splitting hairs to push a single interpretation of what "spygate"is supposed to mean, especially since it is an incorrect interpretation. Articles are improved and expanded by adding relative information. Per a May 2018 BBC article titled 'Spygate': The facts behind President Trump's conspiracy, the following explanation summarizes what spygate means in general terms: "He even coined a term for it - "Spygate" - a reference to the Nixon-era Watergate break-in, a scandal he insists is dwarfed by what he alleges was politically motivated surveillance of his campaign. More recently is the April 11, 2019 USA Today article, Spygate: Did American intelligence agencies spy on Donald Trump? Barr says we'll find out. - which begins with On Wednesday Attorney General Bill Barr startled Senators when he said during a budget hearing that he believed that “spying did occur” during the 2016 presidential race, and that “spying on a political campaign is a big deal." The aforementioned does not imply that it is/ever was about a single informant as what is stated in the lead; rather it tells us spygate is about the entire surveillance of the Trump campaign and those connected with it, much the same way Watergate was about a series of events. We should not have to call an RfC for every single piece of material that should be included in this article. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Watergate was a scandal as it started with an illegal act for political purposes and continued with a coverup of WH activities. Spygate was a conspiracy theory that an illegal act for political purposes (planting a spy in the Trump campaign) occurred. There is no evidence that this happened. Now, under questioning, Barr hemmed and hawed and said he though spying did occur. He then backed off of that statement. We don’t know what he meant. He says he’s looking into it. If and when he investigates and reports, we can decide what if anything to add. O3000 (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, with the possible exception of BullRangifer, I think there's agreement on this talk page that different reliable sources have described Spygate in different ways. The question is what to do about it. Your comment here suggests that we should treat it as broadly as possible, but I don't quite understand that logic. The fact that Barr said "I think spying did occur," doesn't mean he was referring to Spygate, nor would I think should it influence the scope of this article, since the Spygate theory was around well before Barr made that comment. In any case, in a discussion above, Shinealittlelight has agreed to draft some language that will attempt to accommodate all of the different ways sources have described the theory--not just the narrowest and not just the broadest. I think we should see what they come up with. R2 (bleep) 17:25, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

R2 and Atsme.

Quote: "with the possible exception of BullRangifer, I think there's agreement on this talk page that different reliable sources have described Spygate in different ways."

Actually, there is no exception from me. I agree that Spygate has been "described in different ways" and also that the use of the term has morphed and strayed from the original use by Trump, ergo the original Spygate claims by him, which were about ONE informant (Halper) he chose to label a "spy" to make it seem more odious, who never joined the campaign, contrary to Trump's false assertion. RS still describe that original claim as false and a conspiracy theory.

Quote: "The question is what to do about it." Full agreement. Indeed, the question we are trying to decide (and I'm onboard with seeing a consensus on this) is whether to broaden the inclusion criteria. I am not totally against including later and diverse mentions in some sort of "Other uses" section(s), but only on condition we keep the original historical context and definition as is. It is that origin which made this article notable enough to even create. We don't change history here, but we often document later developments, including deceptive historical revisionism, but they must have some connection to the original scope. They must be on-topic.

Later/other uses/misuses of the term "spying", applied to any and all legitimate investigations that touched on the Trump campaign's widespread and proven involvement in Russian interference, are an extreme broadening of this article's scope, especially since most such uses are totally unrelated to the original Spygate claims.

A disambiguation article would be the best solution. Take a look at what I have written here: Spying on Trump campaign (disambiguation). What do you think of that? -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:43, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I like it! At least as a short-term solution. Getting consensus on the dab page language might be challenging. R2 (bleep) 20:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes! It definitely needs work and improved wording. I'd welcome any help. It might even become suitable for use here, instead of as a separate disambig page. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's what RSes say in compliance with NPOV, but that is not what is happening. It's actually quite simple - we use updated RS and attribute it per our PAGs. We include all relevant views per NPOV. And we use common sense without splitting hairs for such statements as "spying did occur". Everything in this article is based on interpretations of evidence and what the Mueller team thought about that evidence - none of it is science-based fact anymore than what Barr stated in his report. It's Barr's interpretation (what he thinks) after reading the report and various information he has gathered the same as the Mueller Report is about what the Mueller team thinks after reviewing the evidence - high likelihood, not that it did happen matter-of-factly which is why there were no indictments based on the collusion illusion or conspiracy theory, which is exactly what it was from day one. That is where noncompliance with NPOV comes into play. None of this should be stated in WikiVoice, particularly in the lead, "Trump's claims have been shown to be false." No they have not, and that statement should be removed. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:51, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

...collusion illusion. Good grief. O3000 (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's what RSes say in compliance with NPOV, but that is not what is happening. What is what which sources are saying? Links and quotes please. R2 (bleep) 18:26, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was in response to your question...I think there's agreement on this talk page that different reliable sources have described Spygate in different ways. The question is what to do about it. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:37, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Maybe you misread what I wrote? I didn't say that sources are saying that Spygate has been described in different ways. I said that sources are describing Spygate in different ways. To my knowledge there's no source that addresses any discrepancies in how Spygate is described by other sources. I don't understand what that has to do with sources being "compliant with NPOV" (which is kind of a weird thing to say, because reliable sources can be biased). R2 (bleep) 18:49, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to feed the stonewalling. Read NPOV. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:55, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not a helpful or good faith comment. Please AGF. We are working toward a solution. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with BullRangifer. We're here to improve the article, not to share our rants. R2 (bleep) 20:16, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV applies to article content, not your views of RS, which belong elsewhere. The only “stonewalling” I see is that required by RS. O3000 (talk) 00:18, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]