* * *

Critics contend that naked shorting is fraud, and that it constitutes "taking a buyer's money and not delivering the product." However, the SEC denies that interpretation, saying that a fail to deliver "does not mean that the customers purchase is not completed." [cite to SEC’s brief filed in the Nanopierce litigation.] The SEC doesn't articulate how a purchase is concluded absent delivery of the product purchased, however.

Harvey Pitt, the former Chairman of the SEC from 2001 to 2003, formalized his understanding of the practice's damaging impact in a recent Forbes Magazine editorial [cite to Forbes article].

Regulation SHO requires the timely close-out of securities that linger on Regulation SHO, but it is not enforced, as there are stocks that have been listed for over 1 year. Every day there are new stocks that exceed the 13 day closed-settlement date. The fact that there are securities on Regulation SHO for more than 13 days has led many observers to comment on the inadequacy of the regulation.

In general, I think the above is a vast improvement over the prior version, and I am certainly not alone in that regard, but there is probably still room for further improvement. Avoiding the contraction “doesn’t” springs to mind. If others see fallacy or error in the current “Controversy” summation, then they should state their reasons HERE, and not engage in ad hominim attacks and immediate reversions (to prior versions) without considering the evolution that this page has had to date.

5. “Regulators Respond”: As with the prior section, I think the way the current version reads is an improvement over the prior version, both in clarity and for succinctness. Ocham’s Razor, and all that....

6. “Recent Developments”: The changes between the versions are minor. But again, to “wipe out” the latest edits with a knee-jerk reversion to a much older, discredited version of this page is irresponsible and disrespectful to the person(s) who took the time and effort to make a contribution to this project.

Sincerely and respectfully,

UB

It's about time someone gave Joseph Nocera at least a stub. Here's a good place to start. http://www.nytimes.com/ref/business/bio-nocera.html --Christofurio 21:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC) I may do it later this weekend if I haven't persuaded anybody else to get there ahead of me![reply]

I deleted a sentence that seemed to be repetitive of material already there except for the introduction of some new lingo. It claimed that there's a term of art for naked shorting, "cellar boxing." I found a few uses of this term via "google," but the ones that related to naked shorting seemed to mirror each other suspiciously. A lot of the appearances of the term are in irrelevant contexts, i.e. "I would only work out in my cellar, boxing isn't a sport of mine...." The few that are relevant only indicate very rare usage, not a notable term of art. More important, perhaps, the reference was inserted into a quotation from an SEC document! If you follow the link to that document, you'll see that the sentence about cellar boxing wasn't in the original. --Christofurio 19:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.sec.gov/spotlight/keyregshoissues.htm

Also, note that the references to Joseph Nocera have gone from red to blue, so that particular objection to the material is moot.

Two points:

First, one might expect the "Controversy" section to present the points of views of naked short-selling critics in a balanced fashion vs. those of defenders of the practice. However,

(1) The first half of this section attempts to justify naked short-selling with no rebuttal, (2) Each criticism of the practice in the second half of this section is promptly rebutted, and (3) Critics' point of view is never clearly explained (see below).

Why is that? Given the amount of brainpower expended on this page, why is it so lopsided?

Second, the language below makes no sense. Why are we allowing it to stand?

Critics contend that the naked shorting is fraud, and that it constitutes "taking a buyer's money and not delivering the product." However, the SEC denies that occurs, saying that a fail to deliver "does not mean that the customer's purchase is not completed."[7]

By definition, when a naked short sale occurs, shares are neither borrowed nor delivered. The seller has the money, but the buyer has no shares. How could the customer's purchase possibly be completed? The SEC quote makes no sense in this context; it is non-responsive to the criticism. Heck, the SEC quote does not even address naked shorting per se; it addresses "fail to deliver". Is there a good reason to use a non-responsive, not-quite-on-topic SEC quote?

In general, this article seems to reflect a view that naked short-selling is interesting despite criticisms of the practice. In fact, naked short-selling is interesting precisely because evidence suggests it is being used to manipulate stock prices. Absent its critics, naked short-selling would be of no importance whatsoever. The article should reflect this reality by making the controversy the central topic and exploring both points of view thoroughly.

By the way, I am adding a link to SEC comments on proposed SHO amendments.

--Errudite (sic) 23:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. Some defend NSS as just another tool of the market 2. Some caution against federal regulation 3. Naked short-sellers enact market pressure against overpriced small-caps 4. In the bubble of the 1990s, short-selling mitigated the damage 5. NSS deters penny stock fraudsters 6. Prevent pump and dump without police or taxes 7. Pump and dump organizations are run by the Mafia 8. Naked shorting is fraud 9. Taking buyer’s money and not delivering product 10. SEC says FTD does not mean purchase is not completed 11. SEC has acted against NSS under pressure from small companies 12. Campaign has drawn criticism 13. NYT says investors should focus on why shares are heavily shorted 14. Critics contend NSS is harmless and infrequent 15. WSJ criticized NSS allegations 16. GW criticized anti-NSS campaign as NSS deters pump-and-dump 17. GW says NSS regulations are a “diversion”

Number of points made in the "Controversy" section: 17

Number of points defending naked short selling: 15

Number of points criticizing naked short selling: 2

Hi-jacking a supposedly neutral forum and using it to mislead the public: Priceless. --Errudite (sic) 03:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And why would anyone care about his ridiculous opinion regarding the utility or propriety of allowing naked short selling as a deterrent to illegal pump and dump schemes?

I don't see how this article is served by referencing the opinions of unknown parties with undetermined conflicts of interest. --Errudite (sic) 05:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you were really interested in who he was/is, you might have simply checked out the wiki article addressing that question, Gary Weiss. Or is the question rhetorical, sort of like starting a novel with "Who is John Galt?" At any rate, who is Errudite (sic), who doesn't bother to register as a user? --Christofurio 20:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That question is rhetorical; the next question is not. In fact, I have no interest in who he is as I find ludicrous the notion of allowing one illegal behavior to counter another. Sort of like allowing murder to counter rape: dead people can't rape; never mind if the wrong people get murdered. By the way, I am registered, but I am not cited in the article, and properly so. Not sure where you are going with the ad hominem comments. Any comments on the article? --Errudite (sic) 05:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If a person of notability equal to Weiss' maintained that murder shouldn't be prosecuted because it may deter rape, would that opinion not be notable? worth mentioning in an article on the laws on murder? If not, explain why not. At any rate, my only point was that your comment makes no sense unless you're trying to imply that Weiss is less notable than, say, Patrick Byrne or anybody else cited in the article. You've given no reason for that, except by asking a question which you now say yourself you didn't care about. Should anybody else care about your questions/comments if you don't, or are you just practicing your typing? --Christofurio 14:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly my point. Anyone who would take such a ridiculous stance is not worthy of attention. Notable? Weiss? Don't think so. When I get around to it, I will delete his silliness. If you don't care about my comments, why are you wasting time responding to them? Dictionary.com can help you out on the whole "rhetorical" thing. Good luck. --Errudite (sic) 15:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do care about your willingness to make deletions from this article that I don't believe to be warranted. I don't care about your comments insofar as they are only rhetorical flourishes. You start off asking who somebody is then say you don't care who he is, and you say you're "registered" but your name remains red, and aside from those flourishes ... have you had anything to say at all? Words like "ridiculous" don't constitute reasoning. They constitute labelling. There's a difference. You have not yet given any reason for deleting any material relating to Weiss except that you don't like what he's quoted as saying. I don't like a lot of things that get quoted in encyclopedias. Big deal. So your point is ...? --Christofurio 16:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weiss' position seems to be that illegal naked short selling is a useful deterrent against illegal pump and dump. I think this is illogical. Rather than unleash a band of thieves to stop another band of thieves, hoping they don't steal anything from the good guys (or ignoring the fact that they do), I am in favor of enforcing the law, as I believe most rational readers are. I think most readers will be confused by a suggestion that a practice known to be harmful to businesses, destructive to honest investors, and illegal on its face be allowed to continue, regardless of its effects on other crooks. --Errudite (sic) 03:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finally attempting a more substantive point. But I still don't see a case for deletion. After all, "this quotation takes a position which I find irrational" is no case for deletion. People who argue for a flat earth, or even a hollow earth, are quoted in encyclopedias, including this one, all the time. We aren't including only authors with whose views we agree. If readers are confused by suggestions, then they really can't be trusted with an open encyclopedia.

Furthermore, I for one am not of the view that all laws are equally deserving of enforcement. If my local police department decided to stop going after marijuana smokers, I'd be delighted, not because I smoke the stuff but because I think its efforts in that area are a waste of my tax dollars. Even if people who think as I do can't prevail in the legislature to get the laws off the books, the view that enforcement should be de-emphasized isn't inherently irrational.

Indeed, although the brief passage stating his view in this article doesn't spell that out, Weiss' book contends that the laws and regulations against naked short selling are wrong. The enforcement issue is secondary for him. But, obviously, if you believe a law to be misguided (as I do in the marijuana case) you're also likely to believe the same about its enforcement. --Christofurio 14:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So Weiss believes the 1934 Securities Exchange Act, which requires prompt settlement of trades including delivery of actual shares to the buyer, is wrong? Certain people should be allowed to violate the SEC Act and sell short as many millions of shares of targeted companies as they want, pocket the cash, and never deliver the shares to the buyer? Buyers should be content that their brokers claim the buyer owns shares, when in fact all they have done is enrich the seller and dilute the value of the company by creating "phantom" shares? Oh, now I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Weiss is obviously looking out for investors' best interests. --Errudite (sic) 21:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Christofurio on this. Weiss is a respected market commentator.Samiharris 14:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No offense, but if the statement attributed to Gary Weiss in this article is accurate, it is my considered personal opinion that Gary Weiss is an imbecile, a crook, or both. As such, citations to GW should be removed. --Errudite (sic) 03:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No offense taken, though I do not agree with removal. I see that there was an addition to the article, with the Overstock suit. I agree with Christofurio that lawsuits against brokerages are not per se notable, so will remove and replace with a summary sentence concerning the general issue of private (as opposed to SEC) lawsuits. Also I have added comments from Joe Nocera that I believe have a bearing on this article and also addresses Errudite's concerns. Do you have an opinion on the Reg. SHO article?--Samiharris 14:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Christofurio and Samiharris. Do not remove content from Wikipedia because one does not agree with it. Under certain circumstances it can be considered vandalism.--Mantanmoreland 17:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think anyone considered notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia is a credible source for articles on subjects related to the reasons that they are considered notable. Gary Weiss is considered notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia because of his work as a journalist in financial and securities exchange-related issues. Therefore, he is a credible source for an opinion on this issue. Cla68 07:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone please explain to me why there is a separate article with the title "Regulation SHO"? Shouldn't that article be folded into this one?--Samiharris 16:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is a blatant POV fork and should be deleted.--Mantanmoreland 17:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed statement that Novastar has sued alleging naked short selling. A group of shareholders sued in California court, but the company is not a party to the suit. It is therefore not notable. Lawsuits and enforcement actions related to naked short selling of Sedona Corp and the Refco Group might be included, however. Also, the settlement of Friedman Billings and Ramsey founder Emmanuel Friedman with the SEC with respect to his firm's abuse of the short selling delivery requirements prior to issuance of PIPEs deals would be on point. It also eliminates the conclusion that no suit has been successful, since banning from the profession and multi-million dollar settlements generally counts as success.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.57.229 (talk • contribs)

Sorry for the error on Novastar. I will check out the Friedman settlement you mention. The sentence references the private lawsuits not being successful and therefore the sentence is correct as it now stands.--Samiharris 00:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Overstock lawsuit that claims illegal naked short selling was only filed yesterday, so saying that it is not successful is a great deal like POV pushing. The existing lawsuit by Overstock was about stock manipulation via release of coordinated and biased research and news articles that Overstock claims were being managed by (legal) short sellers. It withstood a motion to dismiss and a motion to change venues to Federal Court, and is just now going into discovery. Not successful, but you can't really call it unsuccessful, either. It certainly doesn't belong in an article about naked short selling.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.57.229 (talk • contribs)

Please log in and sign your posts. The edit that you made incorrectly implies there there have just been two recent lawsuits on this issue. There have been at least ten naked shorting suits against the Depository Trust and Clearing Corp. that were withdrawn or were unsuccessful, in addition to the recent suits. See this link: [1] Not one has succeeded. I have added this information to the encyclopedia. Please do not remove.--Samiharris 15:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: mischaracterisation of available documents and the legal situation. "Withdrawn as unsuccessful" is not quite true. Of the cases I've looked at, some were viewed as insufficiently pled and dismissed without prejudice; others were held up because of discovery violations. In several of those cases motions to dismiss on the basis of 10(b) manipulation were survived. Tut. Relata refero (talk) 12:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've assessed this article as a Start class for the Bussiness and Economics Wikiproject. Some of the problems which I think we should adress before rating it higher are:

• needs thorough clean-up and copy-editing: the style is not encyclopedic (rather journalistic), some parts are just collections of quotes;
• over-long and over-detailed discussion of the controversy, with too much focus on specific cases - all this should be summarized, with content maybe put in other articles on the specific cases (if they are notable enough);
• not comprehensive enough: it misses any discussion of the economics of short selling. AdamSmithee 12:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think these are good points. It seemed to me that this article was written by committee. I think one problem may be a lack of independent and reliable sourcing, other than government documents. There seems to be just a smattering of news articles.--Samiharris 20:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Artificially ignoring available reliable sources, and a puzzling emphasis on inappropriate advocacy/news articles. As of February 2007, there were at least seven major scholarly studies. Relata refero (talk) 12:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see a source (that appears to me to meet WP:RS for a video showing SEC's Cox commenting on Naked shorting) was added by an anon IP, removed by an editor Mantanmoreland, added again (by me, as I see initially no problem with it meeting WP:RS), then removed again by same editor with brief note about WP:OR. I don't see how that applies as this quote from Cox is not an unsourced opinion from the anonymous editor, it's a direct quote from a video that's from a "reliable" site, from my initial research on it.

If the editors could specifically prove how that site does not meet WP:RS, then the quote should be removed, otherwise I see no reason why it shouldn't exist in this article, especially since it's from the Chairman of the most dominating source in this article, the SEC.

Mantanmoreland, for the betterment of other editors' future efforts to properly source, please give more details on why you have found the source to be WP:OR instead of WP:RS, and please don't confuse emotional outbursts from anonymous editors with a reason to revert such quotes. Thanks for your research on this and any help you can provide as this article is sorely in need of WP:RS with detailed opinions on th e matter. I'm willing to learn more about what constitutes WP:OR and WP:RS, and have seen way too many YouTube videos and blogs used as WP:RS across this encyclopedia, so I share your concerns for proper sourcing.Piperdown 18:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There was no substantiation for the quote on the website linked. There was a webcast link but it was/is dead.--Mantanmoreland 18:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, see that the link is dead, thanks for the correction! That would probably be a constant problem with links to webcasts that are recent, as live casts are usually kept at the same link for a short time, then later archived days later to a separate link. Perhaps the transcript for the Q&A section will be published by US C of C, but until then you are in the right. Perhaps this could have been explained to the original editor in the quote removal edit to explain, they probably felt the removal was unjust, probably not realizing the link was in limbo. Also, I am wondering what the difference is here between a quote from a videocast that could be attained by request from a RS, vs one from a published book that also can not be instantly verified by 2 clicks of a mouse. I don't think there's a good answer to that, but at least a book can be eventually verified for a quote, while a webcast that's waiting for a government site admin to provide an archive link from a live cast will have to wait. I hope you can understand why I reverted your deletion of the quote and source, as it was there when I watched it live myself, so I agreed with the original editor's inclusion of it. But I'm no WP:RS, and I didn't reverify the link was still live when I edited. Thanks,Iw'l be wary of verifying recent webcasts links as sources. Interesting questions these modern times raise when it comes to using the web as source, as dynamic as it is. If editors find this video later archived and available to wikipedia readers, or the contents used in another WP:RS, the quote should be restored or at least key parts of it.Piperdown 19:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From the piece: "The settlement is the first between the Securities and Exchange Commission and a brokerage firm where the US regulator alleged that the firm played a role in a type of abusive short-selling practice known as “naked” short selling." We could go on and quote the entire piece in the entry, or we could just not beat around the bush that the article leads in with "naked short selling" to provide more detail on the "short selling" in the headline. It is a fact that the SEC charged GS with naked short selling according to the article. If you feel my addition was incomplete in providing view points from the article, that's fine, but what I wrote about it was not "erroneous".Piperdown 19:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Goldman Sachs clients engaged in the trades. Goldman Sachs was acting as prime broker. See the Bloomberg article here-- [2] Saying that Goldman Sachs engaged in the trading was wrong. The current version is correct.--Mantanmoreland 20:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a prime broker, GS is liable for ensuring their customers have shares that have been located and borrowed. Again, the SEC did charge GS, not GS's customers. And the charge was that "the firm played a role in a type of abusive short-selling practice known as “naked” short selling." Your edit can be described as correct according to the sources cited, but my edit was not "erroneous". It was a very short but accurate decription of the Times/AP article. I don't have a problem with your edit, but I do have a problem with you calling my edit "erroneous". It was not. Your additions to the section are well sourced and well done. But you're not doing wikipedia any favors by calling other's edits "erroneous" when sources show they are not. Incomplete? OK, editors should expand when they feel a statement does not fully charcterize the situation. Encyclopedias are by nature too brief and subject to the same limitations as headlines. Thank you for ensuring that this one is not too brief. Have a good day.Piperdown 20:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have made far far worse mistakes believe me! People make mistakes all the time in the encyclopedia and one should not be upset when corrected.

I have cut back on the Indian material, particularly the lengthy and difficult to understand quote from the chairman of Sebi. The paragraph also left the impression that naked shorting had been banned by India when it had not just yet. I also removed the lengthy quotation from Regulation SHO, which was unnecessary in my opinion and much too technical and jargon-y.--Samiharris 00:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article re:Sebi was explicit in stating that its sources said that naked short selling would be disallowed on March 29th. So we'll revisit your edit then. Also removal of the entire Sebi commissioners's quote is not very productive. Quotes from heads of regulartory agencies should carry more weight on complicated topics such as this, than one line soundbites from non-regulators. If you feel the quote wsa too long, then you should shorten the quote, not cut it out completely. It was a very straightforward quote, I'm sorry that you feel it wsa hard to understand. It will be restored after the Sebi meeting on the 29th and subsequent followup by a WP:RS.Piperdown 02:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting is not preferable and we all have to keep in mind the three-revert rule, which is at WP:3RR. That said, I strongly disagree with your adding that lengthy excerpt from Regulation SHO. It clogs up an article that is already top heavy with jargon, and it is unnecessary detail. As for India, your edit of the article said as follows: "Naked short selling would not be permitted as per the recommendations by India's Secondary Market Advisory Committee. Investors in Indian stock markets will be required to deliver securities at the time of settlement." That gave the impression that this was certainty or had already been passed by the pertinent Indian authorities. The ambiguity in the language had to be removed and the article needs to be quoted accurately. The quote from the Sebi chairman, first name not given, was very hard to understand and was disjointed. --Samiharris 04:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think Piperdown did a really nice job of summarizing the article last night and I think he deserves a round of applause for that. Good job! I still have a problem with the addition to the October 2006 Q&A at the SEC. Though now summarized, which is good, I still question its significance. Was there some kind of change in policy in October 2006 regarding Reg. SHO? I searched the SEC website and could find none. I then looked for articles mentioning this and could find none. So I would suggest to please provide some article sourcing meeting Wikipedia criteria. As written currently, it falls squarely under the category of "original research" which is verboten under Wiki rules. Thanks for understanding and for your good work.--Samiharris 14:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sam, let me get this straight. First I post the exact verbiage with a link to the SEC site. You suggest that this including long excerpts from SEC site is not encyclopedic, which I agree with and so have improved the inclusion. Now you say you can't find the information and call it WP:OR? C'mon. How about going back to my original inclusion, and searching the linked Reg SHO Q&A site? It's there. My summary is a best shot at cliffs notesing it. I also am puzzled why you didn't previously apply the same approach to the earlier section that had 4 long exact quote paragraphs on the SEC's opinion on how to value stocks, which has nothing to do with explaining naked short selling. Also the ncans.net sourced NASAA document is not only poorly summarized, it's technically WP:OR as that is not a WP:RS site. I can see that this article has suffered from selective application of WP rules. Let's all work together to improve it and hold the patronizing applause rhetoric. Piperdown 17:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Section summarizing from "(NEW! 10/10/06)" section on SEC Reg SHO website restored to "Regulators Respond". Please do not remove properly sourced material with baseless WP:OR claims. Piperdown 17:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The SEC adding something to its website, restating the existing requirements of Reg SHO, hardly warrants inclusion as a "recent development." It says at the top of the Q&A that the questions and answers are provided by the staff and may be periodically updated. Their adding a new item that just restates what is already in the regulation is thus of zero significance. Reg SHO is already adequately explained and this addition is unnecessary.--Mantanmoreland 19:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

re: user:Mantanmoreland comment deleting a propely sourced NPOV edit where he says "(rv - erroneously implies SEC action in October 2006 when there was NOTHING except an addition to the website)"....that's just bizarre. It doesn't imply anything except what it says. That there Q&A website was updated in 2006 October with information that is directly pertinient to that section. I don't understand what game is being played here, I'm pretty sure it's an attempt to get me to violate a 3 revert rule while two editors continually remove a well sourced, as neutral as possible addition from the SEC itself clarifying the topic discussed here. I won't be bullied or intimidated by nonsensical excuses in a baiting attempt to be intimidated from editing here. Stop removing well sourced and applicable edits. If you can improve them, do so. Piperdown 02:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel it's not a "recent development", then feel free to include it in the section explaining technicality of what naked short selling is. There is no detail on Reg SHO here, other than a site link at the bottom. If there was a section on what Reg SHO is summarised here, I would agree with your point. There isn't. I see the entire first half of the article containing odd segues about issues peripheral to naked short selling, but little in the explanation in the intro of exactly how the SEC is defining and addressing the matter.Piperdown 02:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The third paragraph of "The Practice" section is more than sufficient discussion of Reg SHO.--Mantanmoreland 03:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For further discussion of this topic please see the user talk page of Piperdown. Samiharris 22:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Someone inserted a lengthy "let's go to the jury" statement from the CEO of Overstock, in the context of an overlong discussion of denial of a motion to dismiss in a case brought by Overstock. This insertion is absurdly long, as per WP:WEIGHT. It is inappropriate to include a lengthy self-serving statement from one side in ongoing litigation. Let's not repeat that. This is a neutral encyclopedia, and p.r. from one side or another of a legal dispute does not belong in it.

Please be mindful of the following aspect of WP:NPOV:

"An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements."

Devoting an entire paragraph to an interlocutory decision in an ongoing lawsuit clearly falls in that category. Let's have no repetition.

I additionally cut back on a likewise disproportionate discussion of Rhino Advisors, when there was no actual charges files and none have been filed since 2005. There seems to be a real intent on the part of some editors to engage in one-sided skewing of this article. --Samiharris 19:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So it's OK to include the POV of Joe Nocera, who comments on Byrne having a "meltdown", and also on the POV of Gary Weiss, but its not OK to include Liz Moyer's reporting of Byrne's statements on the suit, which you call "Overstock PR" [Ms Moyer does not work for Overstock, she works for Forbes]. The beat goes on on wikipedia. Piperdown 19:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only "beat" that I see going on is the relentless drumbeat of your agenda. You attempted to place a description of one denied motion in one lawsuit that would have been three times as large as the description of the demise of ten lawsuits successfully defended by Depository Trust Clearing Corp. It's hard to find a better example of an editor on a POV rampage. So stop the sarcasm and get your act together.--Samiharris 19:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wtf are you talking about. Feel free to add meat to DTCC lawsuit wins. Dunno, don't care. I didn't see anything about that in the 8 major media outlets that covered the 7/18 story.

Again I ask - how can you call Liz Moyer's reporting of Byrne's quote to be removable as an company press release? Would you care to run that characterization of Moyer's reporting to an RFC? I doubt it. As for "my agenda", I'm not the one who has posted on wikipedia that Overstock and Byrne are running a "Smear campaign" against its critics (would you like to see the quote of yours?}. I don't know how that could allow you to claim any NPOV. And your editing partner Mantanmoreland is on record on wikipedia as saying "Patrick Byrne hates Wikipedia" (would you like to see the edit on that? It's hilarious). The only reason I haven't escalated your behavior on all things Byrne is that no one besides you and Mantanmoreland really give a damn. And you two really really give a damn. Why is that? It would be interesting to pull a "sparkzilla" on this (as wikipedians of great repute have recently endorsed an on-WP COI outing). Mantanmoreland has claimed on his user page that he has "professional interests" in these topics, and you have shown extensive knowledge of 1980's era Chicago Exch. history. I really doubt you want to pursue the POV and COI angles on these issues bilaterally. I could be wrong. Piperdown 19:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Creepy threats and innuendo now? This is consistent with your behavior from Day One, and is evident from your history. I urge you pursue "POV and COI angles" to your heart's content. The "POV" angle is your agenda, and the "COI" is whatever may be rumbling in your background not mine. Your own words underline my concerns about your editing behavior in this and other articles, most recently your giving excess emphasis to an interlocutory motion in the Overstock lawsuit.

You know perfectly well that my talk page comment, further elaborated upon in my initial comment in this section, made no reference to the "Moyer article." My edit summary was a reference to your editing, in that you injected a large portion of text out of proportion to the significance of the denial of the interlocutory motion. That is something you have done repeatedly, when you are not removing material you view as unfavorable to Overstock and its CEO, or pursuing your personal hatred of journalists who have reported on Overstock and its CEO. Your agenda, as in the past, has been to exaggerate everything favorable to Overstock.com and to minimize everything negative, and you pursue that agenda aggressively, through a pattern of personally attacking Talk page comments. The fact that your comments and behavior have been aggressive and attacking from Day One has been noted in the past by other users. So let's stop the kidding. --Samiharris 21:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added a reference to a suit against prime brokers by NovaStar Financial that is substantially the same as Overstock's lawsuit. In your zeal to overemphasize the motion to dismiss in the Overstock litigation, you neglected that lawsuit entirely. The section on these lawsuits is in my view quite adequate. In fairness to both sides of the litigation, please do not expand references to these lawsuits adding the viewpoints of only one party to the litigation. Please strive to adhere to WP:NPOV in tone as well as substance. The fact that Overstock's CEO was quoted in a reliable source publication does not automatically make that quotation appropriate when it concerns ongoing litigation. Thank you.--Samiharris 15:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rule 203 does not use the term "naked short sale", and doesn't use the word "naked" at all. It therefore does not say "naked these short sales of securities may be legally permitted" under certain circumstances. Please be accurate when quoting the law, if you feel the need to do so at all. Dozen13 01:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is correct. However, your changes were otherwise incorrect, and specifically you can't say that naked shorting is always illegal because it is contradicted by other sources, specifically the SEC website (saying only that "manmipulative" naked shorting is illegal). The Motley Fool article you quote goes on to say that it is just "technically" illegal and then goes on to contradict itself by pointing out situations in which it is legal.--Samiharris 04:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a terminology problem? From what I've read the term "naked short selling" is generally used to refer to the illegal practice. For instance, while market makers can sell a stock short without first identifying the borrowed shares, I don't think many people would refer to this as "naked short selling" because market makers aren't even supposed to hold such positions overnight, let alone for enough time to generate a fail to deliver.

In any case, starting the article with "[Naked short selling]] is a form of selling shares of securities short that seeks to profit from share price declines" doesn't provide the reader with any idea at all what naked short selling is besides the obvious conclusion one can derive simply from its name. Can't we move what is now the third line up to the top to fix this?

As for legal/illegal, I'll wait for your response. Do you have a reliable source which outright says that naked short selling is legal?

Dozen13 11:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with your recent edits, based on a brief skim. You are correct that "fails" and naked shorting cannot be used interchangeably, as many fails are not naked shorts per se. --Samiharris 17:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Asked and answered, a dozen times. "Naked short selling is not necessarily a violation of the federal securities laws or the Commission's rules. Indeed, in certain circumstances, naked short selling contributes to market liquidity."[3] --Mantanmoreland 14:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs to have more of a world-wide view. The problem is hardly contained within the United States. There are a number of stories out there about trading on the German exchange (mostly US stocks though, which I see a bit[4]) but also on the London exchange. I'm not sure how to fit that in. Does anyone have a suggestion? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've had trouble locating any WP:RS sources talking about naked shorting outside the U.S., except for the regulations in India which are already mentioned. The Berlin exchange thing is mentioned in the context of the Cam Funkhouser comment. Apart from that, do you know of any sources that have discussed this as an international issue? If not, than I am not sure the tag is warranted. The impression I have gotten is that this is mainly a U.S. issue.--Samiharris 14:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the tag, as per above remarks. I don't believe it is warranted. If there are international aspects of this issue that should be added, that should happen. However, I think the tag is not warranted in the absence of reliable sources indicating a global aspect to this not reflected in the article.--Samiharris 14:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is difficult to argue with a straight face... That's no neutral way to dispute arguments.--Thw1309 (talk) 11:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed.--Mantanmoreland (talk) 13:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would like to add ADV tag to the entire article. The neutrality of this article is in doubt. Please see:http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/

Please respond if any of you have serious objections.

TwakTwik (talk) 16:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

geez, someone already did that - perhaps, we should wait till discussion takes place here?. TwakTwik (talk) 16:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Register piece is straight from Judd Bagley's playbook. It is 100% unreliable in this context. Guy (Help!) 16:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you're in any position to say claim that the Register is unreliable "just because you say so."--TheSlanderer (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you can't do anything about it TheSlanderer. The guy who owns Wikipedia, gave Guy full reigns ( see talk on Gary Weiss's page), so we just need to shut up and put up. Welcome to 1984. TwakTwik (talk) 18:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How is it unreliable? Please explain, I thought it was pretty interesting. His arguments seemed to be prety straightforward for me as an outsider. 78.54.168.130 (talk) 18:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You could at least be rational about it and admit that the issue is highly disputed. IMHO adding an NPOV tag is not only merited, it is necessary to redeem the reputation of WikiPedia. 138.251.227.2 (talk) 13:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why is a rather technical article about stock purchases and sales closed to editing?

Because it was recently featured on the Register, as well as being the subject of some editing disputes. Iorek (talk) 07:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the sentence "Nocera also reported that a leader of an anti-naked short-selling campaign, CEO Patrick Byrne, was in a "meltdown" during a meeting with Utah legislators, where he was "belligerent" and "cursing"." because it (and its placement after a quote saying that rational people don't think short selling is a problem) implies (as I see it) that Patrick Byrne is irrational. While I'm sure he might be, and the sentence is referenced, it is still the author's opinion. It might be relevant on Byrne's page as a description of his character but I'm not convinced it is necessary on an article about a stock market issue. If it, as John Nevard suggests, "shows the great deal of concern some people have about these issues", then why not just say "Short selling is an emotive issue among some people, who often get into heated arguments"? I still don't think it's necessary, even in that form, as you could find someone who gets worked up to the point of swearing on any issue. Iorek (talk) 07:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Byrne is the only significant person who gets worked up about vast conspiracies of 'naked short selling' to the extent where he goes on a 'jihad' against them (and of course, the 'Sith Lord' behind them). Really, most of the controversy he has created should be merged and linked to his article. John Nevard (talk) 07:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then just say that Patrick Byrne is a prominent anti short selling campaigner, and the driving force behind the criticism of the practice (if that's the case). The implied irrationality on his part isn't necessary, especially with the preceding sentence already stating that most people think short selling is bogus. Iorek (talk) 03:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True, they have properly reasoned arguments, as would be implied of others too if we excluded notable information on their irrationality. John Nevard (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ever, if the covers are impossible to find, the trades fail. A sudden rise in number of fail reports will alert the SEC that something "funny" is going on. In some recent cases, it was found that the daily shorting activity was larger than all of the available shares, which would normally be impossible.[3]

Could a better word then "funny" be found? While the meaning is clear, it seems a bit unenyclopaedic to me Nil Einne (talk) 13:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

potentialy irregular might be a more conventional phraseing.Geni 11:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that, I was thinking untoward but it didn't seem to quite fit Nil Einne (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So one can't move on this project these days without discovering that this article may or may not be a problem. I've come to have a look myself. It has problems. Here are the problems:

• Far too much dependence on financial journalism. The "media coverage" thing dominates the end of the article, and is least encyclopaedic. It should be cut down drastically. Since there are several complaints about it, and a recommendation from the Business and Economics Working Group already on this page suggesting as much, it beggars belief that it has not been done as yet.
• Nowhere near enough reliable academic sources covered in the "studies" section. I am not an expert, but have some small knowledge of theoretical financial economics, and the current section is clearly underweighted, outdated and unrepresentative. Here are a couple of relevant studies:
  • Finnerty, John D. (Fordham): Short Selling and Death Spirals, SSRN no 687282.
  • Boni, Leslie (Anderson SoM) :Strategic delivery failures in U.S. equity markets, JFinMar 9:1.
  • Angel, Christophe and Ferri (Georgetown and GMU): A Short look at Bear Raids.
  • Culp and Heaton, (Chicago GSB): Naked Shorting, SSRN no 982898.
  • Knepper, Zach (Berkeley): Future-Priced Convertible Securities & The Outlook For “Death-Spiral” Securities-Fraud Litigation, Berkeley Legal Press. This last has a decent survey of the litigation.
• It also dramatically fails to provide a worldwide perspective; there are several other countries with much stiffer approaches to this than the US, including the PRC, Singapore and Spain (IIRC) and although there are academic studies of all those approaches, none are in here. I notice the content on the Indian regulation has been unjustifiably pruned back.

Relata refero (talk) 11:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did a little more reading on this specific subject, and am going to rewrite this article shortly so that it finally complies with policy. Relata refero (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]