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	Mimicry has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 14, 2007 Good article nominee Listed February 7, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted August 26, 2015 Good article nominee Listed
Current status: Good article

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Mimicry/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Dunkleosteus77 (talk · contribs) 19:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for taking this on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dunkleosteus77

• Lead
  • seems like a dictionary definition, especially the third paragraph

Copy-edited to remove reference to definition.

• • give an example of a mammalian mimic

Well, possibly the Aardwolf, mimicking the Hyaena, but it's a doubtful case. Removed the word mammal.

• Classification section
  • Please describe, in the captions of images, what the creature is imitating and what it is, e.g., state that Macroxiphius is a grasshopper imitating an ant

• • "The first three such cases discussed here entail mimicry of organisms protected by warning coloration:" fragment, consider revising (needs a verb after "coloration")

This introduces the list that immediately follows.

• • "The fourth case, Vavilovian mimicry, where weeds resemble crops, is important for several reasons; and humans are the agent of selection" improper usage of semicolon, and add to the list of "Defensive mimicry"

Reworded; it doesn't belong in the list.

• • "Mimics are less likely to be found out when in low proportion to their model" replace "out" with "by predators" or something along those lines

Reworded.

• • "There are many Batesian mimics in the Lepidoptera" is "Lepidoptera" a family, class, order, or genus? Please state which one by saying "Lepidoptera family" or "Lepidoptera genus"...

It's an order.

• • "In the Amazon, the helmeted woodpecker (Dryocopus galeatus), a rare species which lives in the Atlantic Forest of Brazil, Paraguay, and Argentina has a similar red crest..." the bolded words are a thought within a statement; different thoughts within the same sentence must be separated by commas. Add a comma in front of "Argentina", and do be careful of these.

Fixed.

• • Italicize species names, genus names, binomial names, and variations upon that. names like "Dryocopus galeatus" must always be italicized.

Fixed.

• • "The monarch butterfly is a member of a Müllerian complex with the viceroy butterfly in shared coloration patterns and display behavior" reword the bolded

Done.

• • The word "e.g." should never start a sentence. Treat it as a semicolon, which is used as a replacement to the period; basically it links two related thoughts without the need for breaking them into two sentences.

Fixed.

• • " where deadly prey mimic a" --> " where deadly prey mimics a" use present progressive

Prey is plural here.

• • "This scenario is a little more difficult to understand, as in other types of mimicry it is usually the most harmful species that is the model" the bolded words are a thought within a statement; different thoughts within the same sentence must be separated by commas. Add a comma in front of "mimicry", and do be careful of these.

Reworded.

• • "there were some other species that is harmful" change is to are because the sentence is talking about more than one species

Done.

• • You don't need spaces between backslashes, e.g., change "Emsleyan / Mertensian" to "Emsleyan/Mertensian"

Done.

• • "secondary crops" doesn't need to be italicized

Fixed.

• • "The potential host/prey drives away its parasite/predator by mimicking it..." consider rewording

Done.

• • "Browerian mimicry" does not have to be italicized

Fixed.

• • "In this class of mimicry the model may be..." the subject and predicate of a sentence must be separated by a comma; place a comma in front of "mimicry"

Done.

• • "Another form of mimicry is based not on color but pattern" a comma should always go before the word "but" (unless it starts a sentence)

Not required here.

• • "Species such as Argiope argentata..." use common name, and then put binomial name in parenthesis next to it; in this case, it should read "Species such as the silver argiope (Argiope argentata)..."

Done.

• • "This wrasse, shown to the right cleaning a grouper..." this sentence is referring to a picture to the right that isn't there. Please avoid referring to images in any case and put the info in the caption of the image if need be, or, just don't refer to the image.

Done.

• • "and then must find of a suitable bird to mature in" take out "of"

Well spotted. Done.

• • " As the host birds do not eat snails, so the sporocyst has another strategy..." take out "As"

Reworded.

• • "...; but this is..." never have the word "but" follow a semicolon

Fixed.

• • "This is common in plants with deceptive flowers that do not provide the reward they seem to." I don't believe this sentence is finished

Fixed.

• • "Bakerian mimicry, named after Herbert G. Baker..." this sentence has a link leading to an article on "Herbert G. Baker" which does not exist; refrain from linking names of persons to articles that don't exist; linking to animals, extinct or otherwise, is another story...

Fixed.

• • "Epidendrum ibaguense of the family Orchidaceae resembles flowers of..." the bolded words are a thought within a statement; different thoughts within the same sentence must be separated by commas. Add a comma in front of "Orchidaceae" and before "of", and do be careful of these.

Fixed.

• • "Inter-sexual mimicry" does not have to be italicized

Fixed.

• • "Dodsonian mimicry" should not be italicized

Fixed.

• • "Automimicry" and "intraspecific mimicry" do no need to be bolded

They redirect here.

• • "vice versa" does not have to be italicized

Fixed.

• • "Quite elaborate strategies along these lines are known, such as in the notorious "scissors, paper, rock" example in the species Uta stansburiana" consider revising

Reworded.

• • The "Others" section contains a fungus that infects plants which then, in turn, cause them to excrete sugar. This resembles more of a parasitism rather than mimicry the way it's described. Consider revising section or scrapping it altogether.

It's described as "floral mimicry" in the cited source.

• Evolution section
  • "although natural selection might stabilize a "mimic" form, it would not be necessary to create it" remove "to"

"necessary to create" requires the word "to".

• References
• I have no complaints. I'm surprised that you found so many journals as such do contain a lot of (verifiable) information.

Thanks.

All-in-all, you had had very minor grammatical errors. I hope these comment were helpful, and I wish you best of luck.

OK, that seems to be all of them! Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Final comments

• You missed some binomial names that needed italicization, but I took care of that

Thanks.

• Images (sorry I forgot to check these over earlier)
  • Why is there an image of Pachygrapsus marmoratus?

Removed.

• • Try moving the image of the grouper with cleaner wrasse next to the paragraph where they're discussed. Move the cicada audio closer to the caterpillar image so that the grouper image can fit.

Rearranged; whatever we do, images will move on smaller screens or windows.

• • What kind of animal is Deilephila elpenor? Please state this since there's no article describing it.

Done.

• • The sentence "Mimicry in a parasite: Cuckoo adult mimics sparrowhawk, alarming small birds and giving female cuckoo time to lay eggs in their nests" is poorly worded, consider revising it.

Done.

• • There seems to be a problem with the spacing between the two audios; the "Play" button is shifted too far up and covers the name of the name of the species. This could, however, just be with my computer. If you see it as fine, it's time for me to get a new computer, or better wi-fi...

It works fine for me, but these things depend on browsers, and display issues with audio inclusions probably aren't too far up software people's bug-fix lists.

• • Perhaps enlarge the image of the stinging wasp mimics, add the names of the mimics (or at least what animal they are, e.g., a fly) though it may get too crowded for a caption, or place an image of the model below or next to it.

Done.

When you've done this, the article can pass.

Many thanks for the careful review. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:41, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If I might ask a favor, could you review the "Whale" article (which is a GA nominee)?

The definition of mimicry has been a topic of confusion and controversy for over a century, so I can understand that depending on references chosen, it can vary. However, it is important that the definition used at the top of the article be inclusive enough that it be consistent with content listed below. If mimicry is defined as "protective" then it cannot include aggressive or reproductive mimicry. Furthermore, mimicry is a phenomenon with three parties involved: the mimic, the model, and the receiver (whose identities may overlap, depending on the system). Critically, the model has to be able to participate in coevolution as well - this distinguishes mimicry from masquerade. Finally, mimicry can evolve within species (for example sexual mimicry where males mimic females), so the definition should not be exclusive to species, but more inclusively to organisms generally. Therefore, it would be appropriate changing the definition to the one supported by Endler, rather than the one currently listed. Dwkikuchi (talk) 23:16, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Template:U:Dwkikuchi: I strongly believe that the lead of any article should simply summarize the article. Therefore, if changes are needed, they should be to the article's body, not the lead, and all the references should be in the body – no new facts, claims or arguments should be introduced in the lead. Therefore, the lead should not be cited unless something is so controversial that a ref has to be repeated there for clarity.

In addition, you have introduced a quantity of minor formatting errors - most noticeably, we place punctuation immediately before references, without spaces, like this: ".<ref name=Bloggs>...</ref> The ..." But all the refs should be moved out of the lead anyway. Another thing: the article is in "British English". Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:18, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The terms "mimesis" and "masquerade" are currently used inconsistently. Moreover, contemporary sources like Ruxton et al. 2004 and subsequent empirical work by Rowland, Skelhorn, and Stevens place the phenomenon under camouflage, rather than mimicry. Dwkikuchi (talk) 17:21, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References for various forms of resemblance included under automimicry need to be elaborated. Eyespots are the subject of a rich contemporary literature.^[1][2][3] and not typically considered mimetic, because the eyes they are hypothesiezed to resemble have not evolved to signal their presence to other animals. That they resemble eyespots themselves is also contradicted by some empirical evidence.^[4]

Love the "hypothesiezed", taking the bull by the horns perhaps.

Clearly Dwkikuchi (talk) 18:01, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well I wonder. The eyespots do not have to resemble an actual animal (though fanciful comparisons have been made in older books): they need only startle, confuse, help to dissuade, or divert the attack of a potential predator to be effective. That they actually do some or all of these things is surely not in doubt: the fact that butterflies are frequently damaged on the hindwings shows that the eyespot areas are often attacked. The functions of eyespots (mainly the topic of another article) could include sexual selection and startle (deimatic): the role of the discussion in this article is to say how far they may be imitating something, for example by resembling generalized eyes sufficiently to signal "big animal" to a predator. That is clearly a different case from Batesian or Mullerian mimicry (a la mimicking wasp stripes), and it seems odd not to call that resemblance 'mimicry'.

I do not wish to weigh in on what eyespots are classifed as myself, but rather to represent in the Wiki what the majority of recent research (references here, also Ruxton et al., etc.) presents. To place this under automimicry would seem to use the same term for multiple phenomena. Would it not be possible to mention, in the Introduction or subheading for "Types of Mimicry" the similarity of eyespot mimicry to other sorts of protective resemblance, and refer readers to they "Eyespots" article for more in-depth discussion? Dwkikuchi (talk) 18:01, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On the need to say more, I agree; as the Mimicry#Automimicry section is already of a good length, that will lead to an Automimicry article (the link redirected here, so I've started the article), which will (eventually) be summarized in this article (leading to the updating of the existing text so as to represent the message of the Automimicry article better). On the rich literature, we need to proceed carefully, using review papers if possible, rather than individual bits of primary research. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the term "automimicry" in reference to parts of the body that resemble one another is obscure (Guthrie and Petocz 1970), and more closely related to multicomponent signals that are designed to increase signal efficacy ^[5](sensu Hebets and Papaj 2005), rather than mimicry in the sense of deception or mutualism.

Deception or mutualism: two different things. I'd not think that using a 1970 paper to argue that automimicry is "obscure" is especially convincing. On the contrary Lycaenid butterflies have "tails" resembling their heads, and rest with their heads down, tails up (helping to divert attack from head to tail, deceiving the predator, but certainly not mutualism) so there's a variety of different types of evidence for automimicry in the group; and much has been written on the subject since then. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I do not intend the date of the citation to mean that the reference is obscure, but rather that that lone citation seems to be the origin of that usage, and that its own authors point out in a footnote that their usage is not to be confused with mimicry in the context of predator-prey interactions. It is really a fascinating paper about how threatening structures in mammals (such as horns) are also repeated in facial markings on the fur. The authors hypothesize that this is to reinforce threat displays. This is an example of structures that have evolve to reinforce a signal being sent, but is a distinct evolutionary phenomenon from mimicry. It seems quite important to classify this correctly if it's part of the Evolutionary Biology project. I don't believe that this is the same thing as what your Lycaenid butterflies do, which could be mimicry, startle, or misdirection (Ruxton et al have a nice bit on this sort of resemblance in their penultimate or last chapter).Dwkikuchi (talk) 18:01, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Automimicry has its most abundant usage when it refers to the phenomenon where not all members of an aposematic species are defended, so that some members of the population are parasitic on the others.^[6] Dwkikuchi (talk) 23:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Phrases like "has its most abundant usage" are definitely too technical (focused on the technical literature, not on the mimicry itself) for a Wikipedia article. We are aiming to create a clear, comprehensible overview of the topic for a general audience, supported by evidence and examples. Ruxton 2004 is an excellent book but very technical: where we use such things, we have to "unpack" them with suitable glosses, wikilinks, examples, and illustrations. I'd say we don't try to explain "most abundant usage" at all, we just make sure we mainly talk about the case Ruxton is referring to, and mention the other cases too in a more minor way. (i.e. we take Ruxton's statement as a direction to editors.)Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly wouldn't want to use this wording in the main article, but think the subsection should reflect that the vast majority of research on automimicry has be done in reference to this phenomenon. I will get out my copy of Ruxton and try to unpack its content as best I can. Dwkikuchi (talk) 18:01, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent.

Shouldn't mimicry of morphs within species be included under reproductive mimicry? The references cited for lizard polymorphism do not use the term "automimicry", except for the one by Svennungsen and Holen, which is about prey species with individuals that differ in their chemical defenses.Dwkikuchi (talk) 18:01, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think that rather than start any more discussion threads ;-) it might be best if you simply went WP:BOLDly ahead and edited Automimicry for a bit, using these and other references. I can have a go at copy-editing, writing the lead, and perhaps illustrating the article. Then we can think what to put back in Mimicry#Automimicry when the dust has settled a bit. I assume the current length is about right, but the balance will probably shift a bit. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:43, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The section on Emsleyan/Mertensian mimicry makes little sense as written. The sources it cites aren't available online and after a bit of googling I wasn't able to find any better explanation, so I'd really like for an expert on the subject to flesh out the section a little better.

The problem: The section implies that a predator that has been "taught a lesson" is better than a dead predator. But this can ONLY be true if the predator can pass along that message to other predators... it obviously cannot be true otherwise, since a dead predator can't kill any more of the same prey or create offspring that would kill the same prey.

In other words: in the absence of predator communication / learning, a dead predator is *strictly* better than a predator that has been "[hopefully] taught a lesson", even if the prey dies, because the prey's kin could benefit from there being one less predator in the area.

The article doesn't mention the what sort of communication/learning this would be, but it *does* mention, as an objection to the theory of Emsleyan/Mertensian mimicry, the possibility of learning via watching a conspecific die after an encounter with deadly prey.

So, for Emsleyan/Mertensian evolution to come about, we would need a model of predator learning where the predators are able to communicate to each other that a prey item isn't worth it (the less-deadly model organism) in a way that is somehow more efficient or impactful than predators watching each other die after an encounter with the more-deadly "mimic".

And I am having a very hard time imagining how this would happen. My first thought was of an altricial predator species, with a mother teaching her offspring what to avoid over a period of many years and many litters... except, wouldn't it be far better for the prey species for the mother to simply *die* ?

Death is better than lessons learned. No more offspring, plus any of her offspring that were watching her hunt would see her get hurt and die after messing with that particular prey item. That would surely be a pretty decent lesson, no?

I just can't see how a predator species could be social enough to pass along messages to each other about what's bad to eat, but not social enough to learn when someone dies after messing with the wrong critter.

Again, I'm looking for some expert input or preferably a scholarly source that explores this paradox, and the section should be rewritten to mention the crucial role of predator communication (which is strictly required for Emsleyan/Mertensian mimicry to emerge.)

As it currently stands, the section is not only misleadingly worded but I also simply do not see how Emsleyan/Mertensian mimicry could ever plausibly evolve.

Blue Rock (talk) 21:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article reports faithfully what scholars have written in reliable sources. It is not up to us to say we like or do not like what they wrote, that is for forbidden rightly as original research, WP:OR. Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:15, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I very, very, very, very, very clearly suggested no such thing. I was very careful to specify what my goal was at both the start and the end of my comment. (I also observed that the given sources are not available online, thus cannot be easily verified.) Why haven't the admins banned trolls like you yet? At the very least, you are in violation of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers . There really should be a more specific rule banning baseless accusations. Blue Rock (talk) 04:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify for the all the trolls and the functionality illiterate editors out there who TL;DRs there way past anything longer than a tweet: The section, as written, *IS* *MISLEADING* BECAUSE PREDATOR COMMUNICATION IS MENTIONED ONLY AS AN OBJECTION TO MERTENSIAN MIMICRY, not as an essential component to it, which it *must* be. This is basic logic: without predator communication/learning from conspecifics, a dead predator is *strictly* better than one that has been "taught a lesson".

I don't have access to the sources cited, so I can't write a better paraphrase myself, nor was I proposing to. I WAS SPECIFICALLY ASKING IF ANYONE OUT THERE HAD A SOURCE OR AN EXPERT. You can personally disagree with my reasoning all day if you want, but the fact remains that the section is *objectively* incomplete because it completely fails to mention predator learning from conspecifics in the context of evolved Mertensian mimicry (it only mentions it as a possible objection to it.)

TL;DR: read the capital letters. Blue Rock (talk) 04:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]