When someone writes something is stealthy or it is stealth and if it is connected with aircraft, ordinary people do connect immediately such wording with invisible as many articles including ones from manufacturers, popular media outlets and news suggested such meaning especially in the past - for example "Stealth: Flying Invisible - The Past, Present and Future of Stealth" from https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/video/show/stealth-flying-invisible/22151, "How The Fantasy Of Invisibility Becomes Reality In The Sky" from https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/2015/WashPostF352.html . Both mentioned articles suggest invisibility is related to stealth which is false claim.

It should be noted that such thing as invisible or stealth related to F-35 does not exists. F-35 could been seen and tracked optically, with TV or IR/thermal camera and optical systems, with radars even at great ranges(depends on types of radars used) and by at least two other means I will not write here about. So using word "stealth" and considering all ways it is connected in general population with word "invisible" because of media without saying about constraints of such a strong wording and in what area some stealth exits if exist at all is not justified.

It is misleading readers without proper explanation to what is stealth related regarding F-35. To use such a strong wording for some object implies to regular readers form of invisibility.

It is more correct to say for example: "F-35 is difficult to detect by some types of radar at some ranges" or "F-35 have some stealthy features but is not invisible to radars" or "F-35 is less observable in long ranges to K, X, C bands of radar"

Claiming anything that ordinary reader could immediately connect to invisible is false and given pretext of using "stealth" as something "invisible" all over media and even by manufacturer gives more falsehood to readers especially ones that are not familiar to matter. Encyclopedia when presenting something should care about perception of such wording to ordinary readers and care if such wording presents actual facts to related object so writing word "stealth" without giving immediately proper explanation after in lead of this article could be pretty misleading. Loesorion (talk) 22:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't belong in the lede as that is just a summary and an overview and does not get into detail. Otherwise it is covered in Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II#Stealth and signatures. - Ahunt (talk) 22:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ahunt long time no seen, since from Airbus A220 or later, welcome here, when summary is incorrect and misleading it should be corrected and it doesn't matter if it is or not covered in Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II#Stealth and signatures. Lead of this article has so many words in dozen of sentences so why not tell more precisely about F-35 with just a few more words? As a reader I don't like to be mislead hope you do not also as millions of readers across world. Loesorion (talk) 22:29, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, the details do not belong in the lede and you will need a much more NPOV ref than tass.com to add anything more about this subject to the article. - Ahunt (talk) 22:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So you say, NPOV is irrelevant here as I am not talking about sources, I could change it without adding a source as here context and meaning matters. Main thing here is to explain to reader stealth does not imply invisible, and sources you can find already in article I do not need to add them. Here we talk about correct use of wording not sources and right way to present information to readers. Loesorion (talk) 22:49, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that does not belong in the lede of this article and neither does the other editor who removed it when you inserted it. So you have made your proposal - lots of editors watch this article, so let's see if anyone supports it here. - Ahunt (talk) 22:53, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While it is possible I am putting too much faith in 'the average reader', I do not think the automatic conclusion is that stealth aircraft are optically invisible. I feel this does not need to be explained on every article with a coined 'stealth' aircraft, especially not in the lede. In-linking to Stealth_technology#Aircraft or similar would be far more appropriate as it is a whole article in itself if you truly want that level of detail. Sure the NPOV rebuttal may be moot, but you're definitely gonna have to chuck an actual vote up to gain consensus to make the aforementioned changes at this point. — IVORK _Talk 23:25, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not just optical invisibility, others are also impossible for technology available today...But perception about word "stealth" is invisibility, most people are not specialist in physics, electronics and other fields to understanding how it works and what is possible and what is not...And mass media and even producer of F-35 bombarded them with invisibility when they talk about stealth. Lockheed Martin writes about a cloak from “Harry Potter”? So what ordinary people could think after such a statement from F-35 producer and they watched movies about Harry Potter? Loesorion (talk) 14:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Loesorion: Your attempt today to force your own way on this issue, since reverted as POV, is against the consensus in this discussion so far. I would advise you to knock that off before you get blocked. You seem determined to denigrate this aircraft's capabilities. If you have some WP:COI on this subject I think you need to disclose that before this discussion proceeds. - Ahunt (talk) 13:59, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ahunt you always seems to me try to block me from editing nothing else, you have no argument you just force ways to prevent editing, here I am talking about not using word stealth without simple explanation and I have not removed completely that word, yet my attempts to edit with preserving that word are blocked. And lead have no citation for word "stealth" btw? Loesorion (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the term is referenced in the article text and so does not normally need a ref in the lede, see MOS:CITELEAD. You have been around long enough that you should know that. You also did not reply to my request that you indicate your WP:COI on this subject. - Ahunt (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am publicly declaring that I do not work for any companies involved in any of my Wikipedia editing I do not work in any company with job of degrading, promoting or protecting public image of any company on Wikipedia. I am not paid for edits. Ahunt while you asking me, could you do the same about WP:COI not just for this edits here but also on Airbus and others. It seems to me that I am attacked here by you even on personal level, you do not care about content and my edits only to block me from editing. I have btw provided source for my first edit of article, then it was removed, when I edited without source according to MOS:CITELEAD while preserving word "stealth " and adding just few words into lead again I am prevented from editing. Do you ask consensus every time when you edit few word in some part of lead article on Wikipedia? And what is forbidden from editing on Wikipedia - maybe declare that and I will stay away? Instead doing the thing you are doing maybe you just for once could try stick to subject here in Talk. Loesorion (talk) 20:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

F-35 is invisible - so many sources including producer say Yes

F-35 is invisible plane, so in lead of article invisibility should be stated, many sources including producer state invisibility. https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/2015/WashPostF352.html . When you think about F-35 just think it about how Harry Potter is hiding under the cloak until Lord Voldemort comes... Loesorion (talk) 14:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read the ref you added? Setting aside the obvious PR-dept hyperbole there in linking the F-35 and this technology, this is "under development" and has not been deployed in the aircraft or anywhere else. As the article notes it doesn't really work yet, either, even in the lab. - Ahunt (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think we are getting into WP:POINT territory with some of these edits, given that the same individual has, on the one hand, tried to insert edits to denigrate this aircraft's stealth capabilities (whatever they may or may not be), and then also tried to insert edits claiming "invisibility" that is not supported by the sources and grossly exaggerates the aircraft's stealth capabilities. Both of these were done by the same editor within the space of 24 hours, which is suspicious. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 20:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Seems like at least WP:AXE here, and getting into WP:DISRUPTION, which is why I gave him the opportunity to explain why he is trying to do this, before he gets blocked. - Ahunt (talk) 20:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source I added from producer of F-35 has title "How The Fantasy Of Invisibility Becomes Reality In The Sky" and is saying I quote: "Today, the F-35 strike fighter jet makes this fantasy a reality, as it navigates airspace with the most advanced powers of hide and seek. Its multiple stealth devices – radar-absorbing materials and internal infrared sensors – comprise the ultimate invisibility cloak. Cloaking, which makes objects partly or wholly invisible, manipulates the direction of visible and near-infrared light or electromagnetic waves around an object as if it weren’t there. For an invisibility cloak or shield to work, the material needs to curve waves completely around all dimensions of an object, and work with all backgrounds and angles of view."

I will not cite whole source, but word "invisible" is used in this source 12 times.

So fantasy of Invisibility becomes reality according to source not to me - did I read source or reference - you should not ask me such a question, I had of course read source before I used it, but did you? No you just stop edits, you do not read anything.

It seems to me you have not read source, and here is many more sources exists that are saying F-35 is invisible in many ways:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/if-the-f-35-fighter-jet-is-so-awesome-why-is-it-so-hated/ https://www.aerospacemanufacturinganddesign.com/article/supersonic-stealth--f-35-takes-to-the-skies/ https://sdquebec.ca/en/news/the-five-most-important-facts-about-the-f-35-fighter https://www.c4defence.com/en/israel-unveils-new-f-35-line/ https://www.rtx.com/news/2020/07/14/all-about-the-f-35 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-builds-jets-invisible-to-radar-with-new-f-35-wing-set-575600 https://www.channel3000.com/pocan-asks-air-force-to-clarify-future-of-f-35-jets-in-madison/ https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-northkorea-southkorea-aircraft-idUKKCN1U60BL

The latest source I given here - and many more exists - from Reuters is saying:

“There is no room for doubt that the delivery of ‘F-35A’, which is also called an ‘invisible lethal weapon’" - source tells us that F-35 is called invisible lethal weapon...

And no it is not nice how you treat me here as fellow editor....Suspicious and so on...

And I cannot denigrate facts only you can do that by preventing edits and that is all you are doing.

While you claim I am denigrating Lockheed Martin product and I am suspicious for who do you work for if you care so much about Lockheed Martin product. I just edit Wikipedia... Loesorion (talk) 20:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You know from my editing record here over 16 years here that I have no connections to any subjects, including this one. We seem to have a solid consensus from four editors here opposing your proposed edits and none in favour. You can just leave it at that if you like and move on as per WP:DEADHORSE. - Ahunt (talk) 21:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that for stealth or invisible. Two different subjects in Talk, you once write in one other time in other one, and dead horse for one day and after so many sources I provided claiming it is invisible? No I do not know your editing record I do not tracks fellow editors but I do notice that you at least twice prevented me on doing edits and making as it seams gang against me - not nice again - and I am not blind - despite I have provided numerous valid sources here in this topic and you where still trying from start to stop edits using various Wikipedia rules without offering any real arguments related to discussion in Talk. Try for once to offer any sources as counter arguments and do not block my edits with excuses based on various Wikipedia policies that are not applicable here. Be polite and politeness will get back to you - just a saying. Are you paid to edit Ahunt - regardless on how long are you a editor or your connection on subjects? Loesorion (talk) 21:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No I am not paid to edit Wikipedia and never have been. - Ahunt (talk) 21:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've suggested your edits were both aimed at denigrating and over exaggerating its stealth capabilities within the space of 24 hours, so what's your excuse about me? --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You claimed that I am as editor suspicious - what excuse about you I do not understand? And what time has to do with it, my first edit on article regarding other topic was on 23 may second on 25 may and on this topic 25 may? One topic is here totally other topic is up in Talk do not mix it...Both are separate sections here in Talk about F-35 on different subjects. Loesorion (talk) 21:21, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]