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Former article talkpages (archived) Talk:Kosovo/ Republic of Kosovo Kosovo (geopolitical region)

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I have a big problem with "Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo". This is inaccurate statement in addition to being a POV to give an impression that the Government of Kosovo does not have legitimacy. Not a single government questions the legitimacy of the Kosovo government. Some countries, such as Serbia, question the legitimacy of Independence but not the legitimacy of the government. Unless strong evidence is provided to back up this, I plan to remove it.Ferick —Preceding undated comment added 04:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Not sure if Serbia recognizes the government of republic of Kosovo. It's a fair statement since a lot of countries recognize only the UN authority.Mike Babic (talk) 07:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't really see the problem here. The majority of Kosovo is governed by the Republic of Kosovo. Said republic is partially recognized. The sentence conveys both pieces of information clearly and succinctly. Khajidha (talk) 05:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have evidence to show that countries do not recognize the legitimacy of the Kosovo government? Again, its different from Independence. You can't really challenge the legitimacy of the government that was democratically elected. If they are legitimate for the majority they are legitimate for the minority as well, but that sentence suggests otherwise. Ferick (talk) 15:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

interesting law question. if A doesn't recognize C, does it recognize B which declared to govern C. 79.101.174.192 (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ferick, what is your point? There is no "pov" in pointing out that the territory is different from the institutions of government. This is completely distinct from the question of legitimacy of the institutions of government. Institutinos may or may not be legitimate, but a territory is just a territory. --dab (𒁳) 11:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How is the territory different from the institutions of the government? How is this even a relevant statement?

Simple put, this is the only "encyclopedia" which gets into these ridiculous debates. Simply put, it should not even be mentioned who controls the territory, as it is very obvious to normal people that the Kosovo government is in control of the territory. Even in the North the Kosovo police and EULEX have control over the borders, court houses etc.

But since the statement exists in the article, and some users feel the need to defend it, I would like to point out that the whole territory is controlled by the Kosovo govt. The UN mediates (latest UN meeting concluded that this is all the UN will do from now on), EULEX controls the court houses and borders in the North, and it reports directly to the Kosovo govt, who it is advising on these matters of rule of law.

In conclusion, the statement that "its majority is governed" is misleading. This needs to be changed, or removed. Good day, (Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

how many encyclopedias do you edit? Talkpages are editorial discussions, not articles. You have no idea of the "ridiculous debates" that take place within the editorial team of, say, Britannica, unless you are a member.

The point isn't moot. Governments come and go. For reasons of human territorial behavior, governments are usually tied to territory, although there are exceptions to this. The territory remains, the governing institutions change. Thus, "Italy" primarily refers to the Italian peninsula. Depending on historical context, this refers to the territory of the Italian Republic (since 1946), the Kingdom of Italy (1861–1946), a number of kingdoms before that, or yet another set of kingdoms even earlier.

This is a crucial distinction if you are at all looking at historical issues. It is irrelevant in the statement "I'm going on holiday in Italy" because the assumption is naturally that you go to current Italy, not to Late Medieval Italy. Any discussion of statehood, sovereignty and history must take into account the relation of government to governed territory.

Kosovo is de iure governed by the UN. It is de facto governed by the UNMIK and EULEX forces. Both UN and EULEX tolerate the government of the Republic of Kosovo to have a say, apparently in the expectation of a transition to a de facto sovereign government of the RoK over the next few years. I am not sure how you can claim that any government has de facto control over their territory if the country is actually run by international organisations. I fully expect the RoK to take over in the course of the next few years, and I personally don't mind if they do, but that's in the future. --dab (𒁳) 14:01, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sir, you have no clue what you are talking about. Seriously. Very few people dispute the fact that Kosovo is de facto ruled by the government lead by Hashim Thaci. Only de jure par is disputed. Check your facts.24.185.39.181 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Dab, why do you always try to punch above your weight? Check out the EULEX website; "we are not there to govern or rule". Thus your statement about Kosovo being "de facto" governed by the EULEX is false. I'm surprised that as an administrator you can just say these things without checking sources.

You clearly do not follow current events, but if you did, then you would know that the UN has re-configured its mission in Kosovo to less than 500 personnel.

is this a "historical issue", its very much a present issue; i.e. presently "Kosovo" is governed de facto by the govt. of the "RoK", helped along by EULEX and mediating with Serbs in Kosovo through UNMIK.

Why do you always have to be right, can't you just take it that some people know more about a topic than you do.

Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Too much detail? Considering Kosovo's "status dispute" I think we should not shy away from introducting as much information as possible to maintain neutrality.

But nonetheless, the current sentence; "In 1912, the Ottoman province was divided between Montenegro and Serbia, both of which became part of Yugoslavia in 1918" is false.

The Viyalet was also divided between "Macedonia" (hence the relevance of the Bulgarian element in 1912) and also "Albania".

This needs to be addressed. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Except it wasn't. The Principality of Albania, I believe, took a chunk of the former Ottoman province. But modern Macedonian identity was in its infancy and the territory of today's republic was a source of dispute which led to the outbreak of the second Balkan war in which Bulgaria (with Ottoman support) fought against Greece and Serbia. The result split the territory among three countries, Greece getting the largest part. However, it had been Serbia - not an independent Macedonia - which was awarded its modern-day territory. This as you know, included a part of the Vilayet of Kosovo (ie. Skopje, Kumanovo, Kočani, Štip, Veles etc). Macedonia was first awarded a recognised status in 1943. Yugoslavia: did not bare its name as early as 1918. First it was the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and then it became Kingdom of Yugoslavia in December 1929. During this time, not only was there no Macedonian or Kosovan entity, but Montenegro had been abolished too upon its lands joining the kingdom. It too was only reintroduced after WWII. Evlekis (talk) 22:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, try and keep them concise. I think you've been advised to once before as well. Your argument has no basis however, whether Macedonia was in infancy or Albania was a principality is besides the point;

The Viyalet was also divided between what is now known as "Macedonia" and what is now known as "Albania". (Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

I didn't know that you were discussing the present period, I thought you were establishing the immediate successor states which took their share of the vilayet in 1912. If you are talking about today then yes, four countries outside of Kosovo occupy the lands of the former Ottoman province, and Macedonia is one of them along with Albania, Serbia and Montenegro. So my apologies. Evlekis (talk) 23:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But stating what was taken in terms of "modern day" countries doesn't necessarily work in all instances. It will have to match the context of the paragraph/section and what countries/states it is currently referring to, time-wise. Beam 00:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"In 1912, the Viyalet was split with parts of it becoming incorporated into either an Albanian or what became known as an Yugoslavian state. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 01:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Almost. But again, it skips six entire years whilst the territories were recorded as having been within independent Montenegrin and Serbian entities. We're getting there. Evlekis (talk) 13:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or how about: keep the introductory history paragraph brief, but towards the bottom of the page create a timeline giving an accurate description as to what Kosovo was, when; just remembering to mention barren periods such as the interwar period. Evlekis (talk) 13:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like the solution to me. Beam 21:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about: "In 1912, the Viyalet was partitioned by various Balkan entities, with the current territory becoming incorporated into Yugoslavian after WW2. I feel this is a simplified version of an other wise very complicated period of events.

I don't think we should name every single "entity" which controlled Kosovo from 1912 - 1945. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Well if we are to keep the paragraph simple then, as Beam suggests, mentioning all countries is not essential. If we are to mention Yugoslavia then it is as well give the year 1918. The reformation period (1943-46) is bang in the middle of its lifeline, so largely meaningless. The only relevance concerning Kosovo is that in 1946, it reapparead on the map and took its present form for the first time. But that is mentioned in countless areas across WP, especially on Kosovo-related articles. So: the vilayet was partitioned etc. incorporated into the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1918. This way we leave out Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and we omit referring to the post-war Republic because it is remote from this historical period. Hope that sounds simple. Evlekis (talk) 00:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to assure user:dab that the talks are progressing. User:Evlekis, does that mean you would agree with this as a sentence?

"In 1912, the Viyalet was partitioned by various Balkan entities, with the current territory becoming incorporated into Yugoslavian after WW2".

Seems to offer the most generalized, yet comprehensive version of events without being factually incorrect. Or are there any other suggestions... (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:06, 28 June 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Yes that's fine. Does User:Beam agree? Evlekis (talk) 05:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I've restored my edits on Vilayet of Kosovo. They now include two extra sources regarding the Treaty of London. If you are going to return to that article - presuming you haven't seen it yet - then maybe it is a good idea to change the information to whatever the outcome will be here. After all, this is the same chapter and subject but simply on a different page. Evlekis (talk) 05:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now that Kosovo has joined the IMF (and World Bank), do we have to change references to Kosovo being a region into Kosovo being a country? According to the Wiki on the IMF, "Any country may apply for membership to the IMF", the whole article refers to countries and states, and there is no mention of regions, let alone disputed ones, being allowed to enter. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 14:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So you think Kosovo ceases to be disputed territory because it joined the IMF? Well, after you convince the Serbs of this I am sure we'll be able to state the dispute has been resolved and that Serbs and Albanians are hugging in the streets of Pri$tina. Let us know once you've managed that. You'll probably also get the Nobel Peace Prize into the bargain. --dab (𒁳) 14:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest with you, Serbs will never get convinced, even when Kosovo will be part of the UN, they will still say that it is part of Serbia, but anyway who cares. About the hugging part, is that what Croats did with Serbs in Zagreb, to become an independent state?--kedadi (talk) 15:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

yes. We all know it's a matter of UN recognition. We have been over this only ten dozen times. My reply above is really saying, you know this section is pointless, so why bring it up. Serbia cannot veto a UN resolution, but Russia can. So, as we all know, Kosovo will become "a country" without qualification as soon as the Russians decide they would like it to be one. Of course the Russians don't care two hoots about Kosovo, but they really like to be able to show the world that they are still calling the shots. --dab (𒁳) 15:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I'm not suggesting that Kosovo is not a disputed entity any more, dab, maybe I should rephrase and expand my question. When will be the point where we stop pandering to the vociferous minority (and I'm talking about considering the public opinion of the whole of the world) that maintains that Kosovo is still part of Serbia by referring to it as a region? When the vast majority of world countries have recognised it as a country? When it joins the EU? When it officially becomes a member of the Eurozone? When?

Allow me to draw an analogy with the Holocaust (sorry but it's the first example I could think of). The wikipedia article does not say that it is a disputed, unlikely event, yet there are more people around the world (including some governments) that deny it ever happened than there are Serbs alive. These people do not get a say in the article, and, other than a mention of their existance, their view is ignored as the Holocaust's occural is irrefutable, just as it is irrefutable that international news agencies and newspaper articles refer to Kosovo as the country that has newly become a member of the IMF and World Bank. So, I'm not saying that it is now, but looking at recent developments one day we will have to say NO! Kosovo is indipendent and it is a country even if its status is disputed, just as happened to other new countries in the past. Just saying that we will quite likely have to consider this in the future, It's not a POV, I'm just pointing out that according to the overwhelming majority of sources on this new development, Kosovo is a country and is referred as such. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 16:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@dab and Brutaldeluxe, what do you think if we would model the article about Kosovo from Republic of China (which is also not a UN member and disputed by People's Republic of China)?--kedadi (talk) 20:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User:dab, I must pick you up on something. Its very puzzling how the discussion evolved from when user:Brutaldeluxe quizzed about the reference to Kosovo as a country (linking it to the wiki IMF page), and you responded by initiating a new dialogue with regards to Kosovo's status dispute.

What is the criteria for being called a "country"? It has been discussed before but I find your argumentation very inconsistent. In this discussion, you referred to Kosovo as a "state", whilst over here, you argued for it to be referred to as a "region".

I would also like to remind users that Wikipedia is not affiliated with either the UN, nor the Serbian government; inasmuch as it is not affiliated with the Kosovo authorities, the USA or NATO.

Having said this, I certainly think there is merit for Kosovo to be referred to as a nation/state/country, even with its disputed status. The words "state" or "country" are more appropriate for the article and I don't feel the use of the word(s) would violate our NPOV policy --- Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kedadi, although not exactly what I meant, I think bringing the Kosovo article into line with that of the Republic of China would be an improvement.

I would like to bring to attention article one of the Montevideo Convention, the criteria of which are used by the European Union to determine statehood and I'd like individual users to answer if Kosovo's situation fulfills the following criteria. The full text can be found here: http://www.taiwandocuments.org/montevideo01.htm

Article 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

So, does Kosovo have:

• a permanent population?
• a defined territory?
• a government?
• capacity to enter into relations with other states?

Brutaldeluxe (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The question was, "Is Kosovo 'a country' for having now joined the IMF". The answer is, this doesn't change anything immediately, altough it may come to be seen as a first step towards full recognition in retrospect.

Kosovo doesn't 'have' a defined territory, it is that territory. This territory does have a permanent population, and it also has at least three governments, viz. the Republic of Kosovo, the Republic of Serbia and the UNMIK ad interim administration. This is the entire point of a "territorial dispute": one territory, several would-be governments. The state isn't the territory, ok? The state is the état, i.e. the status , the human construct of a "fixed establisment" by which this territory is being administrated.

People keep confusing "territory" and "state". This is an easy mistake to made, but it is becoming somewhat exasperating if people keep refusing to admit a differencce between the two even after they have been patiently reminded to do so, under WP:IDHT. This is the article about a territory, its history, and the various administrations relevant to it. It is still not the article about the Republic of Kosovo, an entity or state declared in 2008, named after and laying claim to this territory, just like the Republic of Serbia, an entity declared in 2006, and named for a larger territory taken comprise Kosovo, which is also laying claim to this same territory.

Can we please set aside these semantic games now? They have long ceased to hold any kind of interest. People have refused to create a Republic of Kosovo article dedicated to the entity declared in 2008, precisely in order to create the appearance that this entity is equivalent to the territory. Well, it isn't, even if we do keep the redirect, which is properly just a {{R to section}}. Redirection does not imply synonymity. It's ok, Republic of Serbia also redirets to Serbia even though Serbia has a scope greater than the period 2006 to present, and nobody would claim that "Republic of Serbia" is synonymous to "Serbia" as the article clearly establishes that the territory known as "Serbia" has existed before 2006.

--dab (𒁳) 06:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo does not have a permanent population? I wasn't aware it is a Serbian scientific base that studies penguins. Ok, so if I'm quoting from a source that calls Kosovo a country what am I to do? Change it to territory or region? Is that allowed? If the IMF lists Kosovo in its member states list am I to deny that and say: no, it's not a list of states it's a list of regions. Are we here to doctor sources so they please the rules of Wikipedia? Brutaldeluxe (talk) 10:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This seems a lot like a forum discussion to me, please note WP:NOTAFORUM. I just want to say that I don't believe Somalia to be a real-and-full country, even though it has its own language, territory (which is disputed), culture, government (poor attempt at a government) and membership in International Organisations. Kosovo has more characteristics of been a country than Somalia in my opinion. But who am I to so say if Kosovo or Somalia is a country or not even though I do personally support Kosovo's independence. It's our job as editors to state the facts, which is that Kosovo is a disputed territory with several countries and Organisations recognising it's independence, whilst other countries and organisations don't; we should reflect this in the article and at all times try our hardest to maintain a neutral point of view. Ijanderson (talk) 22:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• a permanent population? Yes, however many are displaced
• a defined territory? no, the north is disputed, also parts east of Kosovo in Serbia-Proper want to be in Kosovo
• a government? about 5 Govts (Rep of Kosovo, Rep of Serbia, UNMIK, EULEX and North Kosovo Serb Parliament)
• capacity to enter into relations with other states? Yes but only with those which recognise it.

That is how I would personally answer them questions Ijanderson (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some interesting points being addressed, here is my two cents on the issue as regards the "criteria" put forward;

Defined territory? -- Yes, as guaranteed by the UN, Kosovo authorities and Serbia (who is always banging on about international law and res.1244) the region in S.E Serbia has no relevance to this debate as that relates to broader discussions which encompasses all the Balkan states.

Government? -- Yes, the Kosovo authorities led by Prime Minister Hashim Thaci, aided by EULEX and mediates with the Serbs with the help of UNMIK. The Rep of Serbia has a role in events in N.Kosovo, undoubtedly, but this is denied in public and therefore should have no bearing in this discussion.Kosovo Many elections have taken place in Kosovo, with over 90% of the population voting for a government to rule - are we supposed to neglect this point? The Kosovo govt has full responsibility as regards all aspects of Kosovo's existence, from the the economy to the military to education.

(Interestedinfairness (talk) 23:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

• • Agree***Kosovo is a country. Majority of English-native speakers recognize Kosovo as a country. We cannot compromise this fact because some non-English natives dispute it. If Serbia and Russia and my lovely country Spain do not recognize Kosovo, that's fine. We can keep that as disputed in their respective languages. We can't deny the fact that as far English Language goes, Kosovo is a country, sovereign and independent. Spanishboy (talk)13:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

There is the saying about, "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck." Kosovo is a country. It functions as one, has recognition - limited though it maybe - and has joined two UN agencies, which is something we can't say for Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus et al. Pretending that Kosovo is in some diplomatic twilight zone only serves to further the interests of those who would like to stick their fingers in their ears and 'lalalala' away anything that doesn't fit the Serb point of view. In essence, whether you intend to or not, many of you are implicitly backing and supporting the maintenance of Serbia's point of view being the official point of view on Wikipedia by refusing to allow Kosovo to be presented as a country, which is what it is de facto and de jure. Serbia does not exercise sovereignty over Kosovo and visits by Serbian officials are routinely refused and they are turned away at the Kosovar border. Further, this is the English Wikipedia and the major English-speaking countries have recognized Kosovo. We've had enough of this semantic hairsplitting nonsense; it's played itself out. Grow up and get with reality. Those of you who insist its status is still disputed should save these arguments for the Kosovar customs authorities when they refuse you entry and deport you as you loudly explain to them that their jobs are fantasies and that Kosovo is a Serbian province - Canadian Bobby (talk) 17:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well said Canadian Bobby, I was going to use the walks like a duck, quacks like a duck analogy but didn't for fear of being ridiculed by the usual suspect. As of this week, all news items on Kosovo in English refer to it as a country, a fledgeling country, or as a republic, and, although some of them mention that its indipendence is disputed there is no mention of it being a region or a territory, therefore it seems rational to assume the position of the English speaking world and reflect this in en.wikipidia, furthermore, the majority of countries that do not recognise Kosovo's indipendence are doing so in view of their own internal conflicts, trying not to set a precedent that could affect their own territorial disputes, see Spain and Russia, to give two quick examples.

OK, going back to the question Is Kosovo now a country?, so far we have a definite NO from dab, a not so definite NO from Ijanderson, what I assume to be a YES from Interestedinfairness and Kedadi, and a definite YES from Canadian Bobby and Spanishboy, so if a consensus hasn't been reached, at least the majority of users who have pronounced themselves so far agree that Kosovo is a country. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 23:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

National Geographic Lists Kosovo as a country

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/places/countries/country_kosovo.html

Biggest Daily Newspaper that supports our Spaniard Socialists El Pais lists Kosovo as a country - Republic of Kosovo in the list of the countries. Also, Serbia is listed w/o Kosovo. http://www.elpais.com/buscar/kosovo

Time to move on with this Wikipedia pro-serb stance. I am a Spaniard and I may have my somewhat support and doubts regarding Kosovo's independence, but I cannot deny the fact that Kosovo is an independent and sovereign state in Europe, considered by majority English-speaking states, including our daily newspapers in Spanish. If countries like Spain, Russia or Serbia want to keep Kosovo as a disputed territory in their respective languages - I am okay with that. But these countries to not have English as their de facto official language. I PROPOSE TO MAKE THE CHANGE. KOSOVO IS A COUNTRY! Spanishboy (talk) 06:37, 4 July 2009(UTC)

I have continued this discussion here. Bear in mind that this is not English Wikipedia, but an international Wikipedia in the English language, thus it's supposed to represent an international, neutral point of view, and not that of English-speaking governments. Daily newspapers don't recognize sovereignty, and the UN still considers Kosovo a province within FR Yugoslavia (to which Serbia is the recognized successor). This is not something to be ignored and this Wikipedia can not be biased towards one side. --Cinéma C 03:13, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, didn't saw the discussion is here, so I copy and paste my question: How comes I cannot find any encyclopedia denying that Kosovo is a country but English wikipedia (together with Serbian wikipedia) does? An administrator managed that under his protection many Serbian pov pushers made this article unique compared not only to all other wikipedias (except the Serbian one) but also unique compared to all other encyclopedias and I think it is time to bring English wikipedia into line with the rest of the encyclopedic world when it comes to Kosovo: http://www.britannica.com/bps/search?query=kosovo --Tibetian (talk) 11:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

dab since the old days has been the biggest opponent against the [Republic of Kosova] or [Kosovo], even more than Tadiq himself. I personally blame dab for completely dragging down the quality of this page. The page should look at least like Rep of China, but of course that is not allowed. Even though by dab's POV Kosova isn't a state, the IMF and WB need to be in the main paragraph. Of course he won't allow it bc this article is about the region or some other bs. So let's start a Rep of Kosova page, and have a link in the "related articles" but he won't allow that either bc that's "biased". FRANKLY it is a FACT that Kosova is a member of IMF & WB and this needs to be presented in the intro, either "Kosovo is a member of IMF & WB" or "Republic of Kosovo is a member of IMF & WB"

EXAMPLEs of other medias:

ASK.com

A republic of the western Balkan Peninsula. Settled by Slavs around 600, the area was under Turkish rule from 1389 to 1913 and became part of Yugoslavia after World War I. An autonomous region of Serbia after 1946, Kosovo lost much of its autonomy in 1990, leading to ethnic violence between Kosovo's Albanian and Serb populations. Intervention by NATO and the United Nations reestablished peace in 1999. In 2008, Kosovo declared independence; however, its sovereignty was not universally recognized at that time. Population: 2,200,000. Kosovar Ko'so·var' (-vär') adj. & n.

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: Kosovo Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Britannica Concise Encyclopedia

Self-declared independent country (pop., 2008 est.: 2,143,000), formerly a province of Serbia. It occupies an area of 4,212 sq mi (10,908 sq km). The capital and administrative centre is Pristina. Before 1999, ethnic Albanians (most of them Muslim) made up about four-fifths of the population, with Serbs (mostly Christian) accounting for the bulk of the remainder. Kosovo was an autonomous region until 1989, when Serbia took control of Kosovo's administration, prompting protests from the region's Albanian population, which in 1990 voted to secede from Yugoslavia. Serbia responded by tightening its control of Kosovo, which led to the Kosovo conflict. The region was administered by the UN beginning in 1999. Kosovo declared independence in 2008. That December the UN transferred most of its powers of oversight to the European Union.

Columbia Encyclopedia: Kosovo Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Columbia Encyclopedia Kosovo (kô'sôvô) , Albanian Kosova, Serbian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet, officially Republic of Kosovo, republic (2002 est. pop. 1,900,000), 4,126 sq mi (10,686 sq km), SE Europe, a former province of Serbia that unilaterally declared its independence in 2008. Located on the Balkan Peninsula, it is bordered on the north and east by Serbia, on the south by Macedonia, and on the west by Albania and Montenegro. Prishtinë (Priština) is the capital and chief city.

^^^ Do you see how these other informative media aren't cluttering their intro's with a bogus titles in Sr, Al, and Eng like WP does? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.240.183 (talk) 18:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to agree that the page should at least look Rep of China, in the sense that the Kosovo article suggests a more complicated status than Taiwan's, even tho Taiwan is only recognized by a very small amount of nations.

Even the official name of Kosovo is not put in the lead sentence. I don't feel this is in the interest of maintaining neutrality. The 60 countries in the world who have recognized Kosovo, including the overwhelmingly English-speaking nations are clearly not deluding themselves when they refer to Kosovo a country/state and not a "region".

As regards user dabs stance in this article, I too would identify with some of the criticisms put forward. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 23:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

You say "dab since the old days has been the biggest opponent against the [Republic of Kosova] or [Kosovo], even more than Tadiq himself." which pretty much makes you appear retarded, and invalidates the rest of your opinion. Beam 14:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't remember Interestedinfairness being there in the old days in order to know. Do you, Beam? Unless... BalkanFever 16:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the past 2 months then, doesn't make a difference. By the way, no, I am not user:Metrospex --- Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:35, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As per the discussions above, I wish to suggest a new opening paragraph;

• Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo, (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës, but also referred to as Kosova or Kosovë), is a country in the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The Kosovo authorities declared independence in 2008, after a decade of UN administration and several years of final status talks. Independence is not recognized by Serbia (from whom it split), and which considers the territory a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija ([Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија, Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup (help))

I sincerely believe this is the most neutral lead which should appease the two apposing views regarding this article. The current lead also features the same Serbian spelling of the country twice.

Kosovo's status dispute is also mentioned twice in the current lead; I don't believe that viewers are ignorant enough to need to read "disputed region" and "partially recognized" in the opening two sentences to get the point.

As always, comments welcome --- Interestedinfairness (talk) 23:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fruitless attempts of someone not really interested in fairness

Myself and other users are really getting tired of this. Interestedinfairness, we get it, you think Kosovo is independent, that it's a country, that it belongs to Albanians and not Serbs, that only Serbia doesn't accept that and that Serb editors (where you even included me although I am not of Serb ethnicity) have no say in this. All of these claims are quite evident to anyone who looks at your edit history (or your block log for that matter). Several users have attempted to explain to you why you should give up your POV pushing because it's not going to work.

Kosovo is NOT a country according to the majority of UN states, the UN Charter, UN Security Council Resolution 1244, the Final Helsinki Act of the OSCE of 1975, and many more. Kosovo IS a country according to the Kosovo government and those who recognize it. Why in the world do you think calling Kosovo a country can be perceived as neutral by any gentlemen or lady on Wikipedia, hmm?

Furthermore, since you ignored international law and decided to present your view of the "reality on the ground", would you care to explain why you didn't mention how the status talks really went? You had the US and most EU states promising Kosovo full independence no matter the outcome of the talks. Only an idiot would settle for less if they are promised more, and doesn't that make sense? In reality, these were nothing more than a show, to present the situation as if all other options short of independence have failed.

You then continue with your blatant POV pushing by suggesting that only Serbia has not recognized Kosovo's move and that only Serbia considers it a UN-run province. Hello? Have you looked at the map of which countries do and don't recognize Kosovo? Reality check - 132 UN states see Kosovo as a part of Serbia, 60 don't. Plus you have Russia assuring everyone that Kosovo will never be a UN Member.

Now I know there's a lot of hatred between Albanians and Serbs (pointless if you ask me, both peoples have so much in common that it's impossible to tell the difference to an outsider - similar food, similar drinks, similar music, etc., but they can't see it because they're so blinded by hatred), and I have yet to find a political party in Albania that is against the independence of Kosovo (while you have LDP in Serbia, which is for it), so I think it's time for Albanians to cool down a bit and just accept that, even though they've received enormous help from the West by them demonizing Serbs in the media and shifting public opinion in favor of age old irredentist dreams / myths, there are still lots of people who have a rational outlook on what's happening in Kosovo, how Kosovo is perceived in the world, etc. Anyone can push their own POV, not everyone can see through the eyes of another person's POV. That's the only way to find a neutral stance.

Interestedinfairness, as you see, Kosovo is not described as a province in the first sentence of this article. Even though my personal opinion is that it is one (as I respect international law), I would never push for something like that, because this isn't Cinema C's little encyclopedia, it's a worldwide free encyclopedia which has to take into account what other people think too. Listing Kosovo as a region or territory doesn't offend anyone (as, you know, Kosovo really is a region and really is a territory.. can't be a food or fruit, can it? :P) and let's just accept that things don't always go the way we want them. If the world was perfect for you, Kosovo's independence wouldn't be disputed at all, and if it was perfect for most Serbs, Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo wouldn't be disputed. What can you do, so is life. Accept it and stop pushing these little "small victories" for you and your people. Work on something more important, write about your people's poets, scientists, culture, tourism (Berat's probably one of the most amazing cities in the Balkans, but the Wikipedia article is relatively short), whatever... The first few sentences of this article is not something anyone should be spending this much time writing about, and I hope that this is the last time I'll have to comment on it. Thanks for reading, --Cinéma C 00:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cinema, you should read the Is Kosovo now a country discussion.Interestedinfairness made the proposal after taking part in and reading that discussion. I argue that since this is English Wikipedia the article should reflect the view of the English speaking world and that is that Kosovo is a country (see recent news items about accession to the IMF, they all refer to Kosovo as a country). All English speaking countries recognise Kosovo's indipendence, with the exception of New Zealand, which is staying neutral but recognises Kosovar passports, and Trinidad and Tobago, which is moving towards recognition. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that assumption is that you can't prove that the majority of the English speaking population does recognize Kosovo as a country. Most English speaking governments assured their population that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Should Wikipedia have blindly claimed this was true, instead of offering different points of view? Wikipedia is not a medium for English-speaking governments to push their views on the world. If you take a look at Serbian Wikipedia, it does not call Kosovo a province, which is the official position of the Serbian government. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, neutral, and almost all English-speaking countries saw protests by their citizens against Kosovo's independence - governments and media aren't always right just because they speak your language. --Cinéma C 03:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just have a simple question referring to the (current) lead... How is it not neutral?

Kosovo (Albanian: Kosova, Kosovë; Serbian: Косово or Косово и Метохија, Kosovo or Kosovo i Metohija) is a disputed region in the Balkans. Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës), which has de facto control over the territory; the exceptions are some Serb enclaves.

This is something we all agree on. It is,

• a disputed region,
• a province that had declared independence, but was not recognized by the majority of the countries constituting the General Assembly of the United Nations,
• governed by the Republic of Kosovo (majority),
• not recognized by Serbia.

--Bolonium (talk) 03:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• The current lead points to a Serb user who tried (and succeeded), in getting his biased point of view across when there wasn't an articulate enough Albanian presence on here to lobby the Albanian version. This needs to be addressed.

But let me pick some users up on certain points; 132 countries "don't recognize Kosovo" --- This is not entirely true, I think New Zealend sums it up when it says; "It's never been the New Zealand Government's position to recognise in such circumstances...We will neither recognise nor not recognise" --- they have remained neutral. The only countries who are vehemently apposed to its independence is Spain, Russia, China and a few other repressive NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING countries. This is the English Wikipedia, might I reaffirm.

Secondly, (to use the organizations you care about), for matters relating to initiating new members into the UN, a majority is required, not a permanent members authority --- any standard international politics text book will tell you this.

Thirdly, have a look at the English speaking press, all of which refer to Kosovo as a country (arguements about Saddam are irrelevent here, might I add that Serbia was projecting its war in Yugoslavia as a war againsts terrorists, whilst countless people were being slaughtered). lets address my proposition again;

• Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo, (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës, but also referred to as Kosova or Kosovë), is a country in the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The Kosovo authorities declared independence in 2008, after a decade of UN administration and several years of final status talks. Independence is not recognized by Serbia (from whom it split), and which considers the territory a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija ([Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија, Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup (help))

What is not neutral about that? Interestedinfairness (talk) 10:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By no means the fact that this is English-language WP leads to conclusion that is should reflect the opinion of the English-speaking world. This is an extreme POV and please refrain from this argument in the future. Each WP, regardless of the language, should be neutral, this is one of the pillars. What is not neutral about your proposed lead is the first sentence, that is one-sided. The rest is quite ok. --Tone 10:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ. This must reflect the consensus amongst the English speaking world. But I'll accept your argument.

Let me move on, what is wrong with stating that "Kosovo" is officially known as the "Republic of Kosovo" to Albanians and Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија to Serbians? --- OR --- the fact that it is a country in S.Eastern Europe, the Balkans? I'm glad you like the rest of the paragraph. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

I agree with Tone about the argument concerning the POV of English-speaking people, it's really scary what people won't come up with as an argument to push their POV. Notreallyinterestedinfairness, read Wikipedia:Five pillars, especially where it says:

|| Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view, presenting each point of view accurately, providing context for any given point of view, and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view". It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics. When a conflict arises regarding neutrality, declare a cool-down period and tag the article as disputed, hammer out details on the talk page, and follow dispute resolution.

I don't think it's possible to not understand that calling Kosovo a country is one-sided - there is obvious POV pushing involved. As for Notreallyinterestedinfairness' argument that some countries declared themselves as neutral and not specifically opposed to Kosovo's independence, I agree, they have not taken a firm stand against it. But they also do not see Kosovo as a country. You mentioned New Zealand - on their government's website, a map of Europe shows Kosovo within Serbia (link from here to map..)

What's wrong with calling Kosovo officially the Republic of Kosovo is that you use weasel words to discretely push your POV. Nobody is going to read that as ""Kosovo" is officially known as the "Republic of Kosovo" to Albanians", but as "Kosovo is officially the Republic of Kosovo (and here's the translation of that in Albanian)", and I'm sure you're well aware of this. This is the same thing over and over again. I really don't understand how you don't get tired of repeating the same argument when you see that people just don't agree with it! And there's nothing wrong with saying Kosovo is in South Eastern Europe, in the Balkans, because it is! But it's NOT a country, so stop pushing your POV!!! Thanks, --Cinéma C 17:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So the answer is just to shove our heads in the sand and defer the presentation of Kosovo's status to the Serbian point of view? Some of you here seem to be very enamored of this idea that numbers make everything ok. If I could get enough people to say the sun is solely green, I'm sure you'd all go along with it since then it would be "controversial" and "we have to present every point of view." Just imagine the drama there'd be if we could get the UN to say it. You see slippery slope you're all setting up with this attitude, right? If we can find one person or country that disagrees with something, we'd have to change everything to suit their position. Asking people to separate themselves from a POV is futile. You're essentially asking us to be robots, which is untenable. I am not pushing a POV, as such, by insisting that Kosovo is a country. I'm insisting upon a little reality. The on-the-ground reality in Kosovo is that it's a country. There's a government, police, security forces, immigration requirements, a president, prime minister, passports, 17 resident embassies, the whole bit. Individual countries can choose whether to recognize it or not, but it doesn't change the on-the-ground reality. There is a double standard at work on the Kosovo page.

If you want to talk about pushing a point of view, you should look at South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Northern Cyprus' articles. They present them visually as countries, with the flags and seals without any counter-presentation of the claiming states. Only their official names are in bold, whereas Kosovo also has its Serbian designation in bold. Those two statelets are only recognized by two countries and Northern Cyprus by one and by reading the articles you'd gather the impression that Georgia was simply a noisy neighbor for the first two. There are three infoboxes for Kosovo, which is just ridiculous. There's only one for Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Northern Cyprus, all of which present them as independent countries. Coming in to lecture us on how evil we are for trying to get Kosovo called a country is hypocritical in the extreme when these other examples abound. The approach you're advocating of defering to Belgrade on this question is unacceptable and is, dare I say, pushing a POV. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 20:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, you've got it wrong. Calling Kosovo a territory or region is not the Serbian point of view. In fact, calling Kosovo a province would be the Serbian point of view. Did anyone here suggest calling Kosovo a province? --Cinéma C 21:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You may not explicitly refer to it as a province, but you allow the maps to do the talking for you - they show Kosovo as part of Serbia. By leaving the page exactly the way it is, you're serving Belgrade's purpose. Kosovo is independent, de facto and de jure and to pretend otherwise is a fallacy. As I stated previously, I'd very much like to see some of you attempt your arguments in Kosovo as immigration denies you entry and deports you.

You've failed to address the disparities I've pointed out with the other disputed territories pages. I want you to explain away why Kosovo, recognized by 60 countries and belonging to UN specialized agencies, is held to such strict scrutiny by you and your fellows in the pro-Serbian delegation here while Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Northern Cyprus are not. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, a rational argument. You would think that after 23 archived discussions, a consensus would be reached between both sides... And after being repeatedly protected, a lead was created to satisfy both sides. This lead states that Kosovo is a disputed region - because it is. "Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo, which has de facto control over the territory; the exceptions are some Serb enclaves. Serbia does not recognise the secession of Kosovo and considers it a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija." The fact that the majority is governed by the Republic of Kosovo is already mentioned - and bolded. The fact that Serbia and not all countries of the United Nations General Assembly do not agree with independence is also made evident. This describes where Kosovo stands, in a few sentences. Never let your personal opinions distort certain facts, as a bias will be evident. This includes throwing away the fact that Kosovo is actually a disputed region, and calling it a country in the initial sentence. --Bolonium (talk) 18:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not even other language wikipedias can agree on the status of Kosovo: German: country, French: republic, Italian: province, Spanish and Portuguese: territory, Dutch: state, Croatian: state, Afrikaans: political entity, Finnish:area. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 19:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not up to Wikipedia to agree on the status of Kosovo! The status of Kosovo is disputed, some consider it a province, some consider it a country. What is NOT disputed that Kosovo really is a geographic region, and that it is a territory, regardless of who claims sovereignty over it, Belgrade or Pristina. So let's just keep it neutral, OK? --Cinéma C 22:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact remains that the Kosovar Albanian govt. has authority and control over Kosovo. From a logical point of view, we should make this point clear and not present Kosovo's direction and movement as dependent on Serbia.

60 countries have recognized it and its institutions with many others, (including countries who have not "recognized" it), also recognizing the Kosovar Albanian authority over the territory (an example would be the acceptance of Kosovo passports). This article gives undue weight to the Serbian point of view and concentrates too much on the theory's of Kosovo independence as apposed to the reality on the ground.

The double standards applied to this article that are mentioned above are also valid to this argument.

What some users are trying to do is push their point of view unto the article so it reads how they want. Have a look at other encyclopedias and reference points, even news bulletins if you like, and witness how neutrality really should be. It's a shame this place provides a vehicle for many stupefied comments.

By the way, user:Bolonium, it doesn't matter about the 23 archives of discussions; the article should be updated to include relevant developments; the fact that the IMF and World Bank have admitted Kosovo as a fully fledged and equal member country of the 180+ group is one example of a development which strengthens Kosovo's independence bid and should be reflected in the article (Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Yes Cinema, it's not up to us to decide on Kosovo's status, but I'm really curious to know how the Germans and Croatians justify calling it a country. I like the Afrikaners' view, political entity couldn't get any more neutral. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 23:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notreallyinterestedinfairness, you don't get it. If there were 10 users on this talk page who really wanted Kosovo described as a province because the majority of the world hasn't recognized the so-called Republic of Kosovo, that would be POV pushing. Saying that we neither want province, nor country or state, is neutral, can't you see that? Or maybe you just don't want to.

Brutaldeluxe, the term "political entity" sounds intriguing. Tell me more. :) --Cinéma C 01:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/political+entity Brutaldeluxe (talk) 02:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has become very clear that Interestedinfairness (talk · contribs) has no interest in any bona fide debate within the project givens. This user is here for one purpose only, pushing their own view of the Kosovo dispute. Such behaviour isn't acceptable, and should have been acted upon administratively under the arbcom probation of the topic some time ago. If this pointless bickering goes on any further, I will seek administrative means of dealing with it, as it is perfectly obvious that the debate is going nowhere. We are not here to solve the assorted Balkans conflicts. We are here to cover them encyclopedically and neutrally. Anyone not happy with that proposition should find some other activity online. Wikipeda isn't here for mediating or resolving real life geopolitical disputes. --dab (𒁳) 09:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Don't threaten me just because your an administrator, or just because I have always made you look ignorant of Balkan related articles, (see up).

What do you mean this debate is going nowhere? Have you even read the debate? At least 4 users agree with calling Kosovo a country and only Cinema and one other user disgaree? Why do you immediatly side with the Serbian side huh? How comes you only target me and not other users, users who go around editing Eurovision song contest articles in order to push a Serb POV against Kosovo?? (Cinema knows what I'm talking about). Please do seek your "administrative" solutions. The talk pages speak for them selves and so do many users who have witnessed your blatant abuse of admin privileges to belittle and intimidate other users into accepting your version of what is neutrality and encyclopedic.

Back to the debate however. What is a country/State;

   * Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).
   * Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
   * Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.
   * Has the power of social engineering, such as education.
   * Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.
   * Has a government which provides public services and police power.
   * Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory. 
   * Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries. 

(Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

WP:FORUM please. It is undisputed that the Republic of Kosovo is a state with partial international recognition. Further nitpicking over semantics of nouns like "country" or "state" doesn't in any way contribute to the development of this article.

your claim that I am abusing my admin privileges is a very serious allegation, and if you cannot back it up with specific diffs, you may find yourself in trouble just for that. I daresay that you are abusing your editing privileges, and you should be aware that these can be revoked very easily. Your edit history has been the classic one of a single-topic pov-pusher, and I have no doubt that if I was to go to the trouble to collect a number of diffs on your past behaviour, it would be very easy to find an uninvolved administrator to pronounce a ban. --dab (𒁳) 13:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll tell you what, you go down the blockin route for me and then I'll defend my accusations against you. But I'm very careful with what I type you see, I haven't edited this page in weeks as a matter of fact, only the talk page.

Lets not get sidetracked and give pov pushers an excuse to talk;

As regards this discussion, I would agree with you that it is undisputed that the Republic of Kosovo is a state with partial international recognition.

At least 4 users, (5 including dab) are in favor of this. Only 2 users are against any reference to Kosovo as a state. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 13:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Point 1. Kosova IS a country, it has it's own government, it depends on no one and is nw a member of the world bank and other world institutions. It is on it's way to the UN and it will become a NATO/EU member in due course. Second, what is the occupation of a land in 1912 by the Serbs if not illegal? What is the rule over 75% Albanians and non-Serbs if not conquest? And what is neutral and impartial if not Noel Malcolm who writes in the Guardian and not "Fascist Serbia Weekly", and someone who is neither Albanian or Serb. Point 2. Dab is clearly a Serbo-nationalist, no different to Brutaldeluxe, Ev and Balkanfever. Each one should be blocked for defending Serbian principle keeping the page a joke "disputed territory". Disputed by who? Serbia & Russia & Zimbabwe, other dicatorships. But look at who recognizes it, UK, USA, France, Albania, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Israel, Australia, New Zealand? What are you waiting for? Mugabi to recognize it? The likes of Dab and Ev should be blocked indefinately. Metrospex (talk) 14:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now that this nationalist @%*&^%$##%$ is blocked, the users here who actually possess a fully developed brain should come up with a consensus in the next 48 hours. BalkanFever 14:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness (talk · contribs), enough. Just.. please.. enough. dab has a point and it really is more than evident that you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again, without the slightest consideration for anything that is said which may go against your own POV. This is no longer a debate, this is just a waste of time now.

Metrospex, since you're blocked and won't get a chance to respond, I won't comment much on what you wrote. But know that it's easy to call everyone who doesn't agree with you a Serbo-nationalist, but it's much harder to try to understand each and every POV and accept to view things in a more global, neutral way, instead of blatantly pushing your own POV. This goes for Interestedinfairness (talk · contribs) too. You think that just because Kosovo declared independence, it's a country, even though not fully recognized. Others view that it's a part of Serbia, even though it declared independence and didn't get full recognition. Is the glass half full or half empty? Let's just say there's liquids in the glass - that way, everybody's happy. So, refrain from calling Kosovo a country or a province, and call it what we can ALL agree on - a region or territory. And stop repeating the same thing over and over again. --Cinéma C 16:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LOL THIS IS WHERE THE REAL WIKIPEDIA IS. I'd like give my two cents because it seems pretty messed up atm. Mr.Cinema, calling Kosovo a region or territory implies that there is not set border or internationaly defined area...This is not the case as even Serbia recognized the definitive territory of Kosovo. Calling it a state does not imply it is legitimate or undisputed, so relax. Furtheremore, the word Serbia or Serbian is mentioned a lot in the lead, we should take some things the Kosovan users say on board.

Please don't bite my head off for this comment. Thanks and best wishes, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.49.245 (talk) 18:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Serbia called a "region" in the article? Maybe because it alludes to the fact that a "complete" Serbia would include Kosovo? But no, we don't all agree that Kosovo is a region or territory. The fact, and forget the neutrality policy for a moment, is that it is a state, whilst Serbia considers it a province. Neutrality does not mean we --(as one user put it)-- "put our head in the sand" and go for a term which doesn't suit the Albanian side, but is perfectly acceptable to the other side. Belgrade has no influence over Kosovo. To do this, it needs to be made clear that Kosovo is run by the majority Albanian people in all aspects of its affairs; the IMF and World Bank membership can be used to highlight this. One example of where Belgrade is influential and should be included in the article is with regards to N.Kosovo. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

You do not agree that Kosovo is a region or territory? That's like saying the Alps aren't a mountain range. :P I see you didn't even try to understand comments by me or anyone else with a different opinion than yourself, so I'm not going to repeat the arguments. We went over this over and over again, but there is just no compromise with you. It's either your way or the highway. This is not a discussion anymore, this is you pushing your POV without any good faith. I've had enough. --Cinéma C 05:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I 'love' where you said "and forget the neutrality policy for a moment"... No, never. Sorry. --Cinéma C 05:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to chime in here and point out that I agree with Cinema that calling it a "disputed territory" is the most neutral option. Calling it a country is an endorsement of the Albanian POV. I have been observing this article for a long time now, and I can say that the "disputed territory" wording represents a longstanding consensus on this article. Which is not surprising, since it is the most neutral wording. I also agree with dab in that interestedinfairness' incredible tenacity and WP:IDHT crossed into tendentious editing territori long ago and it is time for this to stop. --Athenean (talk) 06:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its a shame you guys just won't budge. Calling it a region is Serbian POV. Calling it a country is no ones POV, it is a fact (IMF membership, 180+ country members). The "long standing consensus" on this article about calling Kosovo a region was articulated before Kosovo declared independence. Things have changed now and the article must represent the this and not be stuck in the past. I'm willing to go to arbitration because you guys just will not read posts from me and the other users on top who agree with this approach. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 10:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

you will be the one who gets hurt in arbitration, as the arbcom supposedly doesn't judge on content, just on user conduct. The matter may be disputed in real life, and the dispute is obviously reflected in our article, but in terms of user conduct you are so far out of line that you probably won't last long enough to even sit through an arbcom case before you're community-banned over WP:DISRUPT. This has long ceased being about Kosovo, and has for some time been exclusively about users Interestedinfairness and Metrospex throwing temper tantrums and generally making asses of themselves and their nation. --dab (𒁳) 13:34, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am posting this to let everyone know that I have blocked User:Metrospex for engaging in personal attacks in a content dispute. This edit specifically.

A content dispute can only be productive if it is free from abusive commentary. Such comments poison the well and drive off other points of view. I am not familiar with this dispute, nor am I involved in it in any way. If I notice people using abuse or intimidation to make their point I will prevent it. I see a lot of progress on this talk page and I sincerely hope that those with Wikipedia's best interests at heart will find this to be helpful.

I am always available at my talk page for any concerns one might have regarding my actions or the actions of another. I prefer not to engage in extended discussion on this page. Chillum 14:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Metrospex (talk · contribs) account has already been blocked for 48 hours. There are only so many blocks we tend to issue over disruption before permabanning a user who clearly isn't here to write an encyclopedia, and unless they return with vastly improved behaviour, Metrospex is pushing that limit. The more difficult a topic already is by its nature, the more important user conduct becomes. Once again, a note at WP:ANI may be needed as a reminder to keep an eye on this article (and its related sub-articles). "The plague" will not go away, we will always have ethnic trolling on Wikipedia, but we need to take a streamlined approach to dealing with it and it won't be a problem. --dab (𒁳) 16:26, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree here, we should be stricter rbegarding the code of conduct. Some things can not be tolerated if we want to keep a constructive discussion. --Tone 16:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but please do not take the moral high ground dab. You have displayed callous concern for the Serbian pov and little concern for the Albanian one. You must remember that the Albanian side must also be presented, not just the Serbian one. If you present both then you will have neutrality. But by presenting only a suppressed Albanian POV and a full Serbian one, then you will always have problems. Take the "region" or "country" debate. Check AFP or REUTERS to see what a neutral stance means. None call it a region or territory, rather "it is a country which is disputed by Serbia". Simple. Yet you keep referring to past talks related to this discussion which took place before the declaration of independence as evidence for maintaining the status quo.(Interestedinfairness (talk) 10:34, 7 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

This section is about enforcing civility. BalkanFever 12:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry Fever, User:Interstedinunfairness is upset because he has lost his only friend Metrospex; you know, the only "neutral non-Serbian" editor here who shared the same pro-Noel Malcolm sentiments as him, not like the rest of us so-called "Serbo-nationalists". See for yourself with this apologetic remark[1], and this act of panic in Metrospex's absence[2]. Evlekis (talk) 21:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• As Noel Malcolm put it;
• "Bit is a simple fact that Serbs have invested much more symbolic and ideological capital in their version of the history of Kosovo, and I cannot help it if, in the end, there are more Serb myths to be dealt with than Albanian ones."

"Pro-Malcolm sentiment" as you put it, is better for Wikipedia than Serbian nationalist ideology. Find me one author as neutral or highly regarded for neutrality than him and I'll be more than glad to listen.

However, Isn't it funny how only the Serb nationalists do not like using Noel. Why? -- because it tells them that everything they have ever been taught is propaganda and lies. Why don't you guys read Noel and learn something from a person who's last name doesn't begin, or end with, an "ic"? Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinunfairness, I've told you before and I'll tell you again. Malcolm is regarded but not noted for neutrality. They who publish good reviews about him are not experts on Balkan related issues and have no way of scrutinising him; he can write anything he likes and they will believe it. How neutral an editor is boils down to how he/she is perceived by the conflicting parties. With all due respect, if one person could please everyone, conflict would not have arisen in the first place. The closest one can come to being neutral is to be highly critical of all belligerents. In this case, you wouldn't only have resentment coming from the Serbs, but also some people praising parts of the reports; likewise you wouldn't have 100% of Kosovar Albanians appreciating him either. Noel Malcolm is a certified persona non grata in Serbia along with Joe Biden, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Javier Solana and Nataša Kandić. Diana Johnstone, whose name does not end in "-ić" is not, however she has the same status in Bosnia among Muslims for the comments and publications concerning the Srebrenica massacres. She too has had plenty of good reviews from outsiders; why? Because she writes tactfully and the outsiders know nothing. There you have it. Another reason we cannot use Noel Malcolm - again, I don't know quite how well you know him - is because he is proven wrong in everything he utters, his comments have been rebuffed, refuted, a million times over. Analysts of his two apologetic and pathetic books Bosnia and Kosovo have observed that his theories of nations do not go hand in hand from one to the next. He is also seen to be shadowing other known Albanian propagandists to the point that he is merely translating what they are saying rather than producing conclusions based on his own investigations. In his beautiful Guardian speech, if he'd wanted to be objective, all he had to do was print something to the effect of the following: "Kosova is Serbia. Ask Any historian...bla bla bla with the introduction; it is a stupid question to ask a historian because a land is what it is and what it is today is not based on what it was yesterday....and so on." As for his rendition of the history, he mentioned the original Serbian Empire which ended with Ottoman victory, so what more does anyone want? Is Malcolm now claiming that Serbs deny the Ottoman Empire? Either way, all they ever said was that the territory was once controlled by a Serbian entity. He talks about "Serb myths" in other passages. Well, even a myth has a grain of truth if you know in which direction to look; as for these so-called "myths", the man is exaggerating because no Serb has ever said anything beyond the land having been a part of the first empire, and then retaken by them in 1912 and held until 2008. That was all. Malcolm makes irrelevant statements about continuity. Actual historians who know about the history of Serbs in the Ottoman Empire know that the nation had attempted many uprisings, atleast one with every generation during those years; the relevance of 1912 was that this one was successful. It is not, how Malcolm puts it, that Kosovo lay within the Ottoman Empire and Serbs blindly accepted it and forgot about it. If he is right that the continuity was as relevant as Greece to Byzantia then someone should alter the Serbia page to remove all references to the pre- 14th century empire. According to Malcolm, they are separate states. Malcolm makes pathetic remarks about Serbs having no right to take credit for their role in the early battles with the Ottomans in which they lost their lands, why? Because of the multi-ethnic army which fought the Ottomans; it consisted of Hungarian knights, Albanians, Vlachs, other Slavs. What Malcolm is failing to realise is that this early alliance fought for an already existing Serb state. Malcolm also points out that Serbs fought on the side of the Turks. So according to Malcolm, the Serbs fought alongside the Turks to bring down the empire against various non-Serbs who were fighting to keep the Serbian kingdom. The man is a comedian. Back to the Guardian: what was stopping him saying that after 1912, Serbia retook Kosovo? He didn't want to mention the treaty which inaugurated the new borders which the Ottomans themselves recognised but he produced nonsense about an occupation and the incorporation not being legal. The status that Kosovo had was not from its inception in Yugoslavia until the break-up as Malcolm put it, but at its finest it was de jure from 1974 to 1990 but de facto from 1974 until shortly after Tito died in 1980. Once he died, the central authorities became weaker and weaker and by 1986 the country was completely rump and Kosovo's power - although to last a while longer - was no longer in the hands of its locals because the central protection had been dissolved. This was a natural occurence, no fault of anyones; not atleast as early as 1985. During the time of Kosovo's golden period in the SFRY, they still had time for riots and anti-government demonstrations such as in 1981. Next: conquest. Never was it proved that Serbs were such a small percentage as Malcolm claimed and as everyone knows by now, he spoke in reference to the current territory and not the entire vilayet. Be that as it may, the Albanians were neither among the allies who were victorious nor the Ottomans who defended; not atleast representing themselves. As such, how much they welcomed Serb rule was irrelevant. They didn't fight for the Ottomans. The antonym for "liberated" is not "conquered", but "subjugated." So, if one were to press for a "black vs white" scenario, it raises just one question: were the Albanians of Kosovo subjugated by the Ottomans after 1912? The answer is no. Therefore, they were liberated from it. They never fought for themselves to complain about the change in rule. Your shill, and so-called historian Noel Malcolm, is wrong in everything he says in all his statements. He did however agree that Kosovo was once in Serbia and that was the only answer required of what was asked of him. It was legally in Serbia when Serbia opened her own borders - by choice - to become the kingdom which eventually became Yugoslavia. At that time, there was no Kosovar authority; and if Serbia were not the lawful overlord of Kosovo then, surely today it is not the legal land to control Šumadija, Srem, Bačka, Banat, Pčinja, Braničevo, Raška, Jablanica, Zlatibor and other lands today. These joined Serbia only in the way that Kosovo did. Perhaps in Malcolm's next apology, he can deny Serbia's existence as a legal entity and how it shouldn't even be in the UN. I'm not pro-Serb, nor Serb for that matter; I'm not anti-Albanians, I'm just anti-Neol Malcolm. Evlekis (talk) 23:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cease the attacks, this section isn't contributing to the article. Prodego ^talk 22:34, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New lead paragraph. Removed Serbian source for name of Kosovo in Serbian and also removed the same spelling of Kosovo in Serbian further down in the first paragraph in order to avoid repetition. Generally paragraph more coherent and readable. I included the Western World's recognition -- as this is the Western, English speaking encyclopedia; although Serbia's none recognition also noted. Kosovo is a country according to World Bankhere, but again, it is stated that Serbia disputes this.

Hopefully this won't just be blindly reverted. I generally believe this is neutral and does not violate any neutrality rule ---- (Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

I cannot believe this. After it became obvious you wouldn't get a consensus for your proposed edits on this talkpage, you just went ahead and implemented the changes you wanted anyway. Which shows you are not really interested in discussion (or fairness, but we already knew that), only in pushing your POV. As this talkpage shows, there is absolutely zero consensus for your edits. Kindly undo yourself and restore the previous consensus version before I report you for disruption. --Athenean (talk) 00:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Athenean and propose further actions below, at the sub-header. --Cinéma C 02:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I used the World bank as a source, just go ahead and report me for disruption. I also cleaned up the repetition in the article as it gave Serbian spelling twice in the same paragraph. Your comment suggests you have not even read the edit properly, but rather ust assumed bad faith. By the way, don't threaten me either. Cheers, --- Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. But the World Bank is, well... Not exactly proof of independence. Kosovo remains a disputed territory. Île_flottant~Floating island (talk) 01:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Urgent: Interestedinfairness has violated the ArbCom ruling on Kosovo

As this edit shows, Interestedinfairness (talk · contribs) has changed the description of Kosovo to a country, despite the fact that there was NO consensus about it in previous discussions and that people were already getting tired of his continuous POV pushing. Since there is zero tolerance on this article and Interestedinfairness' POV pushing has been going on for quite a while now, despite several blocks, warnings, bans, etc, I propose a permanent Kosovo-related topic ban to the above mentioned user. There is just no use discussing with someone who refuses to take all different POVs into account and, in the end, just edits how he wants on this article that is under probation. --Cinéma C 02:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By the way he's been blocked for 72 hours for an unrelated dispute. BalkanFever 03:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No wonder things have been calm lately :P Still, my proposal stands - permanent Kosovo-related topic ban. --Cinéma C 03:11, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you should file a request at WP:AE, with specific diffs of his problematic behaviour (edit warring, incivility, refusal to get the point etc.) BalkanFever 03:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User:Cinema, your edit here is just the same as interestedinfairness did, yet at least he provided a link, you did not and also lied in your edit summary on a very contentious topic, so I wouln not be claiming superiority in any way shape or form.

As regards the edit lets look at the ROC page;

"The Republic of China (ROC), commonly known as Taiwan since the 1970s, is a state in East Asia that has evolved from a single-party state with full global. Just look at the way that is written, why can't Kosovo mirror this even though it has more recognitions that ROC?"

Why is it that you two users above are so interested keeping this page in a wrong version? Kosovo has declared independence, shouldn't the page reflect this reality? (albeit disputed by Serbia and others) Why are there two Serbian spellings for Kosovo on the same paragraph? why shouldn't the said user try and edit the page to at least mirror the ROC one? -- I'm in favor, and judging by the comments above, so are a few people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.94.99 (talk) 10:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I should not reply to banned users, but the obvious reply to this is, of course that there is a difference between the Republic of China (a partially recognized state) and Taiwan (the island under its governance), just like there is a difference between the Republic of Kosovo (a partly recognized state) and Kosovo (the territory under its prospective or partial governance).

Saying that "Kosovo has claimed independence" is inaccurate. The declaration of independence was issued by the Assembly of Kosovo, an organ of the provisional institutions of government set up by the UN, and not by the hills and dales of Kosovo. Since this is a dispute, it is imporrtant to phrase things accurately. The accurate phrasing is that the "Assembly of Kosovo" has unilaterally declared an independent "Republic of Kosovo" laying claim to the territory of Kosovo. --dab (𒁳) 15:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with dab here. I also must stress that it is very important to mention in the lead that Kosovo is also considered to be a 'country' and is partially recognised. We need to make sure that somewhere in the lead it says Kosovo is claimed to be a "country" by some to maintain a NPOV. The word 'country' is very important to this article as that what some believe Kosovo to be and what others don't, I can't believe it is not mentioned in the lead, that is not NPOV!!! Ijanderson (talk) 18:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't have to be mentioned in the first sentence, as it is already explained later on. If the fact that some consider Kosovo a country is mentioned in the first sentence, it has to be mentioned that some consider Kosovo a province in the first sentence too, and that would just create too much congestion. In my opinion. --Cinéma C 19:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't specifically referring to the first sentence, I meant first paragraph, sorry for any confusion Ijanderson (talk) 19:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The English noun country is polysemous, and basically refers to any territory, landscape or region that isn't built up by urban development. You are using "a country" in the sense "the territory of a sovereign state". This point of view is, of course, already given ample weight in the article, and it is better to use the unambiguous phrasing than the shorthand "a country". --dab (𒁳) 12:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Kosovo is a sovereign state. What else does it take to be one? What are you missing? There is no law saying that a UN seat is necessary to be a sovereign state. BTW: Switzerland had also not a UN seat a few years ago. So please stop your distraction. --Tibetian (talk) 16:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

hey dab you must feel like you are all that. Kosovo proclaimed independence from Serbia. Obviously, the Assembly of Kosovo did, but in English speaking language you state the COUNTRY 1 DOI Country 2. It's not as if Assembly of Kosovo declared independence from Parliament of Serbia. From over year of reading this discussion I have noticed that you are fiercely biased. Kosovo is a state, it's sovereignty is disputed...NOT THE TERRITORY. Again I must reiterate to you something so SIMPLE. Kosovo is/has borders dated pre-1974 when Socialist Republik of Jugoslavia gave Kosovo autonomy under current borders and/or territory. Again, Kosovo is a state with a disputed SOVEREIGNTY not TERRITORY. Do you get it now? SILENT_KILLER/SPAIN 216.106.61.194 (talk) 04:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Calm down. And Interestedinfairness, I'd suggest you stop with this little game you're playing here. Already exposed for one sockpuppet, soon to be exposed for many others. As for the Kosovo as a state argument, Wikipedia consensus is against calling Kosovo a country or state as it is one-sided. We have all agreed on territory, because that's what it is. You can't disagree that it's a territory, just like you can't disagree that the Alps are a mountain range. Anything else is POV pushing. --Cinéma C 05:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To you, dear dab, sorry cinema, the same question: What else does it take to be called a sovereign country? What else are you missing? And no, the "okay" from Serbia it not what is needed to be an sovereign country. Please read the Convention of Montevideo: "The European Union, in the principal statement of its Badinter Committee,[6] follows the Montevideo Convention in its definition of a state: by having a territory, a population, and a political authority. The committee also found that the existence of states was a question of fact, while the recognition by other states was purely declaratory and not a determinative factor of statehood." --Tibetian (talk) 08:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC) BTW: I am not User:Interestedinfairness, although of course I am also interested in fairness, like everybody should.[reply]

Hehe, you're using a legal document as an argument? SWEET :) This is what I was waiting for. Now's my turn: In Chapter I, Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations, it is stated that “all Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.” The Charter also mentions that “the [UN] is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.” Note that Serbia is one of the 192 Members of the UN, while the so-called state of Kosovo is not. Also, the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 guarantees the “principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.” In the preamble of the 1975 Final Helsinki Act of the CSCE, the declaration in the preamble guarantees “Sovereign equality”, “respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty”, “inviolability of frontiers” and “territorial integrity of States”. This is all just off the top of my head - legal documents that affirm Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. But it is disputed, as some countries do recognize Kosovo's secession. This, however, does not make it right to simply accept their view and ignore the view of others. --Cinéma C 17:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So why couldn't anyone answer Interestedinfairness's question? What is wrong with using Noel Malcolm? He is a highly regarded neutral writer with only Serbs having no respect for him (can't think why?? um???) and he rightly says in his books that serbs have so overplayed the whole Kosova claim that it is not his fault that there are so many myths about the place rightfully being theirs. Kosova - and that is it's name, is a country not a territory, not a disputed region and certainly not no "Resolution 1244 part of Serbia under UN". It was this until 2008, and then it declared independence. That independence was followed by recognition from the USA, from the UK, from France and from all other respectable democracies. If anyone wants to go slagging off illegal countries, I'll give you all two: South Ossetia and Abkazia, they are leggaly parts of Georgia. But leave Kosova alone, and for the last time -"Kosova" is the country's name. It is not governed by the Serbs any more. Socalled "Kosovo" was a name devized by Slobodan Milosevic to distinguish it from it's true Albania character. For those of you who don't know history, Milosevic went to Kosova when it was still Yugoslavia and had his infamous Martin Luther King style speech "I have a dream", which in his case was "I have a dream - of Greater Serbia", and within a short time, he cancelled Kosova's autonomy and government, moved in his Serbs and sent in his Serb army to invade the land and cleanse it of non-Serbs. And this is not the voice of Interestedinfairness, this is not the voice of Metrospex, this is not even me speaking, this is REUTERS and it is also BBC, SKY, CNN and other impartial neutral news networks. As Interestedinfairness said, this land cannot be disputed - Reuters themselves call it a country. Since noone has answered back to the neutral/fair points made by Metrospex and Interestedinfairness, I now conclude that the "pro-serb" arguments have run out and they have lost yet anothe rone of their wars. So as a neutral editor myself with no interest in Serbo-Albanian affairs, I can safely say that "Kosova is a country" and that the Guardian article aswell as all other works by the respected Noel Malcolm can be taken as fact. Mr.Neutral (talk) 12:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

this, "Mr.Neutral", is exactly why: the dishonesty. We are trying to write an encyclopedia and we should not be expected to play hide-and-seek with people who do not even have the respect and good faith to forego the fundamentally puerile option of sockpuppetry. --dab (𒁳) 13:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only possible response to this section header is "Said the kettle to the pot". Nationalism works both ways; before you try to clean the speck out of your friend's eye, it may be wise to remove the log from your own. If it were up to me, I would probably ban the lot of you from this page. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 13:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

no, it doesn't work both ways, symmetrically, in this case. As it happens, this page is plagued by Albanian nationalists vs. the wider Wikipedia community. There is the occasional Serbian patriot, but for some reason these show considerably less activity than their Albanian counterparts. This isn't about "the Albanians vs. the Serbs". This is about "the nationalists (any flavour) vs. Wikipedia policy". --dab (𒁳) 15:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was saying that "Mr Neutral"'s statement about how nationalists are taking over the page is ridiculously hypocritical. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 15:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because of your (mis)indentation, it appears to the casual observer that your reply was directed to Dab, not to "Mr.Neutral". No such user (talk) 09:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "country" vs. "region" hubbub is a semantic red herring. Kosovo is a disputed territory. Anything else is a matter of stylistics. The OED definition of "country" is 1. "A tract or expanse of land of undefined extent; a region, district" and 2. "A tract or district having more or less definite limits in relation to human occupation", and only 3. "The territory or land of a nation". The patriots try to impose usage in sense 3., which is obviously the subject matter of the international dispute. Obviously, Resolution 1244 isn't in any way affected by the declaration of independence. As in the case of Palestine, Wikipedia will have to take the standing UN resolutions as a guideline for the de iure situation. Kosovo will remain disputed until either (a) the UN passes another resolution, superseding 1244, to the effect of recognition of the RoK or (b) the RoK collapses and Kosovo passes back under Serbian governance. Which of these scenarios will in fact come to pass lies in the future, and it is absolutely pointless to keep arguing about them. --dab (𒁳) 15:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well if anyone feels that I have been POV pushing, then I'd like to declare my position in that I have no strong opinion over the country vs disputed region dispute. Jordan became Number 61 on 7th July, as Canadian said. The recent admissions regarding Kosovo bring it closer to being recognised as an all out country, no question. Though as I say, I have no firm views and I intend to keep out of any edit warring over this issue. Evlekis (talk) 02:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

indeed. Chances are that Kosovo will be fully recognized a couple of years from now. I don't have a problem with that either, except that we are writing this article from the perspective of now, not 2015. --dab (𒁳) 11:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How comes that a failed state like Biafra has a country box on top but not Kosova, which is recognized by the majority of the democratic world? --Tibetian (talk) 08:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

it has a "former country" infobox, just like Republic of Kosova (1990-2000). Also, WP:OTHERCRAP. If you have a problem with the Biafra article, you want to post to Talk:Biafra, not Talk:Kosovo. --dab (𒁳) 11:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also note that Tibetian (talk · contribs) is almost certainly a sock of a banned user. --dab (𒁳) 11:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You try to distract, don't you? --Tibetian (talk) 07:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Certainly quacking like one. I'll leave it to you to file the report though. ThuranX (talk) 11:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I filed a sock iverstigation more than 24 hours ago here [3], but incredibly it is still awaiting initial clerk review. Is this normal? --Athenean (talk) 17:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For dab? Sorry, I just saw the link, it is for interestedinfairnes. Not good as he is only trying to get the balance right as this article could easily be on Serbian Wikipedia, just compare it to other Wikipedias. All have the country box on top except the Serbian Wikipedia and this one, thanks to dab and his poodles, sorry, puppets. Nevertheless if I would know the details about how to file such a checkuser investigation I would do this for dab just because I cannot imagine that there are really so many Serbian pov pushers out there. --Tibetian (talk) 20:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Athenean, WP:DUCK. This is obviously a returning troll using a throwaway account. If his personal attacks weren't directed at me personally, I wouldn't think twice about blocking such accounts on sight. --dab (𒁳) 10:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You try again to distract, dear "administrator". --Tibetian (talk) 11:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Admin:dab sees no "bona fide" issue with the article. Removing the tags to hide admin inefficiencies in resolving disputes or neutrality is not necessary. Instead, lets work to resolve these issues.

The first sentence mentions Kosovo as a "disputed region", followed by the line "self-declared independent state". Are both sentences really necessary in maintaining NPOV? It looks like both sentences are saying the same thing actually. Moreover, the Serbian spelling of Kosovo is given twice in the openning paragraph. Will the editing users please explain why no attempt to rectify this has been made? (Interestedinfairness (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

The local name is primarily given in Albanian and Serbian as is to be expected. Within the first paragraph, a secondary translation appears for both languages reflecting how the respective nations recognise the region: fittingly it is presented as Republic of in Albanian with no true requirement for a Serbian translation; and Autonomous Province of in Serbian without need for the Albanian equivalent. Is that what you meant? Evlekis (talk) 13:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only ones strongly disputing the whole "region" or "territory" vs. "country" or "state" issue are Interestedinfairness and his sockpuppets. Now that they've realized that they can't push through calling Kosovo a country against Wikipedia consensus (like Interestedinfairness did here), notice the next step in the strategy:

"The first sentence mentions Kosovo as a "disputed region", followed by the line "self-declared independent state". Are both sentences really necessary in maintaining NPOV? It looks like both sentences are saying the same thing actually."

No, they're not saying the same thing, but I'm sure you'd like to remove the "disputed region" one instead of the "self-declared independent state" one. Or am I wrong perhaps?

There is nothing wrong with the Serbian spelling. However, I would like to suggest adding a translation of the Republic of Kosovo in Serbian, as Serbian IS an official language there too according to Priština, as well as adding an Albanian translation to the Serbian name for the province since Belgrade accepts Albanian as an official language in Kosovo and Metohija too. --Cinéma C 17:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is a nice thought. It might just get a bit cumbersome if we go ahead with it; painful for the eyes and obscuring proper reading content. I would stress that any more translations on top of those already there should be moved directly to the bottom of the page in the footnotes section. This is the practice at the moment with Albanians born in Kosovo. Ad for Interestedinfairness, I haven't been following events these past two days and have no idea as to whether checkusers took place and if any of the accounts supporting him were confirmed to be puppets. It's not my place to accuse anyone at this stage; he is back, and he probably realises more than ever what is expected of an editor. Let's give him a chance. Evlekis (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please stick to the topic at hand cinema and stop accusing me of sock puppetry or I will be forced to report you for miss informing the Wikipedia community. Also, I didn't mention anything about the "country" - "region" dispute. Stop regurgitating the same things over and over again. My contention lies with the two sentences: "disputed region", followed by the line "self-declared independent state". Are both sentences really necessary in maintaining NPOV? Can't we construct one sentence to state the same thing? Also, since we're articulating our selves in English, I'll have you know the correct spelling of the Capital city of the Republic is "Pristina". (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

"Pristina" is the spelling for Wikipedia, not so much the correct form. This is a single compromise for some strange reason which was largely decided by outsiders (non-Albanians/Serbs). As you can see, it conforms to nothing; is neither Albanian nor Serbian though it slightly favours the latter. The policy does not stretch to any other settlement name in Kosovo nor anywhere else in Albania or the former Yugoslavia. In my eyes it is pathetic, I'd much rather use Prishtina than Pristina; I have no problem with splitting 50% of the names in Albanian, the other in Serbian but a committee has decided that Pristina will take priority on WP. Evlekis (talk) 04:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. But I fail to see why both phrases shouldn't exist. Infact I believe it's more neutral to use them both. As it is 'disputed' and it is of 'self declared independance'. Île_flottant~Floating island (talk) 00:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Île_flottant~Floating island. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Interestedinfairness", the term "dispute" would imply that there is some point you want to make. Instead, you have just used this page for incoherent nagging for weeks now. If your only occupation here on Wikipedia is poisoning the well at Talk:Kosovo, I would ask you to just stay away. If you have any real interest in building an encyclopedia, how about you show some productivity in other areas.

Evlekis, "splitting 50% of the names in Albanian, the other in Serbian" is not what we are doing here. See WP:UE. The Albanian vs. Serbian toponymy question is supremely irrelevant. We just use whichever form is most commonly used in English. --dab (𒁳) 10:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Dab, please stop telling me what to do. Please engage in the discussion. Your making me wonder if your abusing your administrative privileges which the Wikipedia community has vested in you.

Sorry for the distraction guys, back to the discussion. My proposal to clean up the lead and make it easier for readers to understand not just Kosovo, but also its status:

Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo, (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës, Kosova) or ([Kosovo i Metohija] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup (help)), is a self-declared independent state in the Balkans. Its independence is a matter of international dispute initiated by Serbia who does not recognize its independence, (see: International_recognition_of_Kosovo).

Taking into account the Albanian POV and the fact that it has de facto control over the territory is necessary for this article to move forward. Giving undue weight to the Serbian pov only excites those pov pushers and gives them legitimacy to propagate their nonsense and keep the page "crap". What you guys think? -- Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

I agree with the above statements. It is officially Republic of Kosova, I say it is more than a "self-declared" independent state but an actual independent country. That much must surely be enough to appease the Serbian nationalists who are trying to control the look of the page. Obviously Kosova is as legally a country as they come because as we've said many times before, the western democracies recognize the state. America would never recognize such rogue states as Abkhazia or South Ossetia or Turkish Northern Cyrpus or rebel areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan! The Serbs are not in Kosova and if they were, it would constitute an occupation, rather like the one they did in the 1990s after Milosevic invaded it and "joined it" to Serbia in his Greater Serbia plan. It is crazy to use the word "dispute" just to please a minority (limited Serbs and some apalling allies). Metrospex (talk) 11:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nevertheless, for the purpose of this encyclopedia it is disputed. Thanks. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Having thought long and hard about the status quo. I agree with the top proposal. It is officially the Republic of Kosova. It is independent and it is recognized as such by the western world. It is just a "matter of dispute" by Serbia, but let's face it, Serbia promised to change it's ways when it got rid of Milosevic. They promised to obide by international law, hand their criminals over to the Hague and obey the west. Now they are going back on their word, they keep their war criminals and they don't recognize Kosova which the west does. Looks like they need another uprising because the Milosevic clan is still in power even if he's not. A Balanced View (talk) 11:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]