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She decided to play for Serbia.

Montenegrin is removed because she doesn`t play for Montenegro, and that language has not ISO 639-1 code. --Goran.Smith2 18:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Born in Belgrade, studied in Belgrade, plays for Serbia. Does anyone have a source for "Montenegrin origin"? I'm not an expert on the topic, but the Montenegro thing seems to contradict what's in the article bio. -[dM] 05:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted that information. If someone wants to put that information, put some references (from some news agencies, or her web site,...). --Göran Smith 11:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it doesn't contradict anything. Her father is Montenegrin, who moved to Belgrade, Serbia, then part of Yugoslavia. The family considers itself to be Montenegrin. After Montenegro declared indepenedence, she was undecided whether she should play for Montenegro or Serbia. I shall add references promptly. I see no need in erasing that informative data, considering Jelena obviously holds her origins to be important. What would be the point of that, anyway? She considers herself to be Serbian now, as she grew up in Belgrade and accepted their identity, but that doesn't change her origins, obviously. Jelena certainly considered it important enough to be puzzled about which country she should represent after Montenegro declared independence in june this year. Quote from the New York Times article I am about to add: "Jankovic, who is the middle child between two brothers, talked of a possible nationality conflict at Wimbledon. Her father, Veselin, is from Montenegro, and her mother is from Serbia. Montenegro voted for independence from Serbia this May." See [1] I presume this should be enough, as it is NY Times after all, but data on her Montenegrin origins abound...just google around for more. Anyways, it is always better to have more data than less. I see no justification in deleting this information anymore. Please do not erase sources and verfiied data. Regards P.S.: I didn't add the NY Times link as a typical reference, as it would seem to be the only one in this article, and I didn't want that. Article needs to be properly referenced throughout, where ever it is needed. So I just added "(See [2])" after the sentence mentioning her origin and undecidedness. Anyone who wants to add this link and others as proper references, is welcome to do so, but it may be a painful job to do for an article this long. --213.240.2.254 05:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would be what I wanted. Cheers. I said it seemed to "contradict" not because it was "wrong" but because there was nothing else verifying it in the article which, instead, seemed to suggest the opposite. -[dM] 12:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Read this(I presume you know Serbian,or if you want Montenegrin):www.b92.net/sport/vesti.php?yyyy=2006&mm=09&dd=05&nav_id=210695

My favorite part:"100% sam Srpkinja. Ovde sam jer tamo nemamo takve uslove, nemamo mnogo betonskih terena. Skoro svi srpski igrači imaju neke baze van zemlje. Ja sam 100% Srpkinja, odande sam i tamo pripadam" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.66.169.125 (talk) .

She is very Serbian, there are numerous references to this within the Serbian media. Having non-Serbia parentage of Serbian nationality (eg. Bosnian Serbs, Montenegro Serbs) while holding to the Serbian nationality and identity is not uncommon. I believe her motive for the comments as quoted in the NYT would be to be more politically correct since her comments are very different in the Serbian-speaking media. That being said, I do believe that a reference to Montenegro is in order, although I doubt she ever seriously considered representing the country. Final thought, with regard to her father, would it be correct to say 'Serbian Montenegrin' rather than just 'Montenegrin', since there is now a big difference and her father is the former (I believe that the nomenclature for nationalities and languages in the Balkans is beyond ridiculous but that is a whole other conversation) Cubrilovic 18:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the subject of her nationality, the article states that she was the first Serbian to win a grand slam title when she won the mixed doubles at Wimbledon in 2007 with Jamie Murray. I am not a tennis expert but I am pretty sure that Monica Seles had Serbian nationality at the time of at least some of her grand slam singles titles. The Wikipedia article on Seles seems to confirm this.Mother shipton (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Singles Runner-up

Whoever keeps changing it back to the table, stop. No other player has a table for their singles runner-up page, even Schiavone who only has runner-ups. Leave it as is. It's cleaner. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.176.139.59 (talk) 01:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Does she really speak Bosnian? I mean, ok, Serbo-Croatian and Bosnian are all the same with only some minor differences but I think it's more of a cultural thing. It defines which country you are from so I think it should be written that Jankovic speaks Serbian. Does anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.81.195.43 (talk) 07:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion that may affect the name or title of this article is ongoing here. Please voice any opinions or concerns on that page. After the discussion concludes, this article may be moved to a different title, in accordance with Wikipedia's Naming Conventions. Thank you, Redux (talk) 05:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, there is an extremely long and muddled discussion going on at WP:Tennis about the tournament tables found on tennis player articles (i.e. this type of table). The dispute is over the "Tournament Name" column, with the options being to either use the "sponsored tournament name" - in other words, the name involving the sponsor, for example Internazionali BNL d'Italia - or the "non-sponsored tournament name" - in other words, Rome Masters. I appreciate that this conversation is very long and convoluted, so a brief summary can be found here, which is also where I request the discussion continues. Thanks, rst20xx (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any chance of putting a pronunciation, maybe with a native-speaker .ogg file, and a reference to satisfy doubters? I hate "misconceptions" wording, but the TV mispronunciation (yeh-LANE-uh) really annoys me. (It should be, approximately, YELL-en-ah, which is not at all hard to say in English; that's why I'm so mystified at the stubborn perseverance in error shown by the TV announcers.) --Trovatore (talk) 08:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Where did anybody find that she is of Greek and Han Chinese origin????Vanjagenije (talk) 00:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted that nonsense! So many people edit this page these days, it's hard to keep track. :( --Göran Smith (talk) 09:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See here for discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Musiclover565 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

She is more of Avar orgin than serb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.138.234.17 (talk) 14:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that in the opening paragraph, it says that 'she was be the No. 1 ...". I would have fixed it, except for the fact that I am not sure if it should be 'will be' or 'was to be'. Could someone who knows more about this than me please correct it?The Editor1 (talk) 02:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where exactly in the UK is she called "Jelly"? I've certainly never heard it. 81.108.87.117 (talk) 23:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jelena Janković → Jelena Jankovic – She is listed as "Jelena Jankovic" at WTA, ITF, Fed Cup, movie database, magazines, wimbledon - Then we also have a couple personal pages for her. She has her own facebook page (which allows diacritics) in which she lists herself as Jelena Jankovic - She also has her own official website where again it's Jelena Jankovic (even with a signature). For an English based wikipedia this should be enough. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:00, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose, unless I'm mistaken, Facebook doesn't allow multiple variations on a name. You can't enter a name one way and then have it automatically redirect to a canonical form. In this case, it's understandable that her PR team would choose a non-diacritic form for Facebook. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 19:45, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did you look at the facebookpage and how she spells it? I agree she chose her English spelling for facebook because of it's common use but isn't that what this article title is all about? And what about her own personal webpage spelling and signature? This one seemed like an easy call. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I suppose this is the last stand for application of ITF-names to en.wp following my own RM at Talk:Gerard Solves (ie. Gérard Solvès) which aims to bring the remaining 15x anglicized-name European tennis articles into WP MOS "consistent with the titles of related articles" with 899,000 other BLPs on en.wp (which de facto use Chicago MOS not NY Times MOS in naming). Admittedly romanization of Serbian is slightly problematic for one characteristic - the letter Dj, which is a hangover from the original Gaj's Latin alphabet. In this case however Janković (surname) has no "Dj", and is a completely standard surname on wp, as can be seen by the other 30x Serbian Janković bios. The only ones spelled "Jankovic" are Serbian Americans. Yes http://www.jj-jelenajankovic.com/ has an English website with her anglicizing her name. Good for her. However WP is an encyclopedia and we don't normally take websites, or Facebook, affiliated with BLPs as the primary WP:BLPSOURCES. Like it or not the name of this Serbian citizen is as much Janković as any other Serbian Janković on WP and unless/until she emigrates this is the correct, accurate, and verifiable spelling of Serbian citizens called Janković. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not even close to the last stand. And we certainly do use player's own written words as part of our sources. In fact we have been told that primary sources for draw sheets is perfectly fine. We use everything in this case and though it may lose this go around it is still a verifiable fact that in English it's Jelena Jankovic. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:22, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Out of 424 (270 deghosted) post-1990 English-language Google Book hits 7 (2 relevant) use the diacritic. Kauffner (talk) 10:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kauffner, sorry but that's a flawed search, since your methodology is skewed towards diacritic-disabled sources. (i) most of those books are populist and diacritic-disabled, no better than an ATP website. (ii) search for Jelena+Janković will only give results for one person with this surname. If he/she is in non-encyclopedic sources, you'll get a non-encyclopedic result. Now try and repeat the search with just the surname Janković in Google Scholar post 1990 and it is evident that encyclopedic sources overwhelmingly spell the Serbian surname Janković correctly. Sorry, but this comment should be disregarded due to the error in search methodology. A search of higher sources produces the opposite result. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Per the reasons given by Fyunck and Kauffner. --Wolbo (talk) 10:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, it should be noted that this user is currently deleting diacritics from sourced article ledes contrary to WP:MOSPN, WP:RS, and WP:Naming conventions (use English) which states "If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians,...)" In ictu oculi (talk) 12:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IIO, that's a grossly inaccurate and misleading characterization of events. You are the one who's going around on a one-man crusade adding diacritics to pages left, right and center that to date had none and adding RMs to diacritic version of BLPs. And you're doing so all the time while we're having an ongoing discussion on diacritics on BLP that you yourself initiated. Frankly, your combined actions and comments on this issue, including the above, make it very hard to (still) believe you're acting in good faith.--Wolbo (talk) 12:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the first paragraph of WP:BLP again, and then please go back to the Czech bio stubs where you have followed me, and restore those people's names according to the sources in articles. Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:02, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Technical and/or policy limitations do not make a name English. Just checked the Serbian article to see the spelling and sourcing used there. Found a great feature of the wiki Software - once registered you can set your preferences not just to the interface language as you might expect but also to the content language script. Guess what her name in Latin script is .... Agathoclea (talk) 11:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What feature are you talking about? Please share. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The automatic conversion of cyrillic content into latin script and the other other way around. Agathoclea (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Question to the opposers, a genuine one. Where are the reliable sources we need in order to support the inclusion of any diacritics? There seem to be plenty where we don't. And bare in mind this is English language Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:47, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But wiki's are not reliable sources, is there an answer to the question about English-language reliable sources citing the use of a diacritic? The Rambling Man (talk) 11:32, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, answer = Google Scholar. Google Books consists largely of diacritic disabled sources which fall below even NYTimes/Economist MOS, let alone Chicago MOS and WP:MOSPN. Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 12:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I meant specifically in this case. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:25, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In this case we would first need to input the surname Janković into Google Scholar post 1990, or Athens if you have a password. Then having established how this surname is habitually spelled in quality sources, check that there are no exceptional circumstances such as the individual having emigrated. The same methodology would be good for a name with Stéphane or Frédéric. One wouldn't input the whole name string with surname into a populist databank. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:32, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps someone should do that then because right now there are a heap of traditionally reliable sources claiming Jankovic. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say any of those sources Kauffner has produced in Google Books are reliable on the spelling of Slavic surnames. Kauffner's results show that only 2 of the books followed Chicago MOS and both of them, 2 out of 2, had search string "Jelena Janković". Which isn't surprising. Why would books mentioning a tennis player follow an academic MOS? Božidar Janković would probably be a more suitable Janković to search for. The results on surname Janković in GS. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well we're trying to provide reliable sources that this specific person is called Jelena Janković or otherwise. Can you provide me with reliable sources that supersede all those in reports in such as The Times, The Daily Telegraph, The New York Times, The BBC etc where she is universally referred to as "Jelena Jankovic"? The Rambling Man (talk) 12:59, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but why would anyone search for this specific person? That doesn't make sense unless there's reason to believe this Janković BLP is somehow uniquely different from all other Serbian Jankovićs. We already have Serbian sources to verify the name Јелена Јанковић. The only issue then is how high-MOS academic sources treat transliteration of Јелена and Јанковић. (not "Јелена Јанковић" as a unique string different from all other Јелена and all other Јанковић). The Times, The Daily Telegraph (inconsistently), The New York Times are all Economist-MOS, they only allow French, German, Spanish and Portuguese names so they are not reliable sources for diacritics unless French, German, Spanish or Portuguese. WP is not Economist-MOS, WP encourages Slavic and Swedish diacritics, see WP:MOSPN or category:Serbian female tennis players. This is why I said Google Scholar, because it operates on a MOS equivalent to WP. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my misunderstanding then. I thought this was a requested move specifically related to this BLP, not to the general use of diacritics on a particular surname. I thought we referenced BLPs specifically and not by relation to other similarly named people? So once again, I guess I ask the question, what references are there that this person is called Jelena Janković and not Jelena Jankovic per multiple traditionally acceptable reliable sources? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, we can't reference BLPs in isolation without relation to other similarly named people because of WP MOS "consistent with the titles of related articles". We'd need a reason to state why this Janković is different from the other 29 Janković or we'd need to move all 30x.

As to sources, we only need two, the two Kauffner found, the two Chicago-MOS sources which Kauffner found which are compatible with WP:MOSPN treat Jelena Janković as Jelena Janković. For the purposes of a Chicago-MOS encyclopedia Kauffner just verified that Jelena Janković is the correct name. Again the Times and Telegraph are not an acceptable reliable source for spelling of Eastern European names. If we used the Times and Telegraph we'd have to rename around 200,000 of the 899,000 BLPs on WP. You're free to nominate all 200,000, or even just the other 29x Janković, but as it stands Kauffner verified that Jelena Janković is Janković in Chicago MOS sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not in the slightest bit interested in mass nominating anything. Frankly, I'm in the "redirects are fine" camp, so either way it doesn't really bother me, hence why I haven't supported or opposed, but just asked questions as to why two "Chicago MOS sources" outweigh thousands of other reliable sources which don't use the diacritic. Are suddenly the BBC, The New York Times etc no longer reliable for names? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course not, it's just an illustration of where WP MOS "consistent with the titles of related articles" would take us if we moved from Chicago MOS down to Economist MOS. The New York Times is getting more reliable, I'm not sure when it adopted use of French, German and Spanish names. The BBC is getting more reliable too. BBC Music Magazine and Radio 3 have recently moved from Economist-MOS they used to favour to the Chicago MOS of Gramophone and Diapason. I'm not sure exactly when it happened but BBC music publications suddenly went umlauts (Arvo Pärt) to full Slavic diacritics like Janáček. This means that some BBC publications are now reliable for diacritics. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, this has been both interesting and enlightening. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're very welcome, nice to chat. User:Prolog/Diacritical_marks has much more. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per In ictu oculi. -DJSasso (talk) 12:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Support evidence that the surname can be spelled with accents does not show that this person is primarily spelled that way in English, only that the surname exists in a form with accents. This is a specific person, not a family article. 70.49.124.225 (talk) 06:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, please see Novak Djokovic and Ana Ivanovic. --183.89.93.175 (talk) 10:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:COMMONNAME actually says "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." Simply stripping diacritics is a translation error and thus would be an inaccurate name so we would not use it even if it is used more frequently by reliable sources. -DJSasso (talk) 19:24, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - WP:CONSISTENCY is mentioned, but that guideline is clearly about consistency within a given article, not consistency with other people that have the same family name. So this has nothing to do with deciding on this article's title. It is not because other people named Jankovic have kept the diacritic in their name that Jelena Jankovic should do that too. It's really amazing how some policies and guidelines are being "interpreted" to make them into support for the diacritics case. We will get a couple million hits for "Jelena Jankovic" in English-language sources. The rendering with a diacritic on the final "c" has not entered English-language usage. So, if our WP:UE policy is still alive, then this is a clear-cut move to anglicized title, as has been done with Novak Djokovic and Ana Ivanovic. MakeSense64 (talk) 13:14, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MakeSense64, welcome back. The correct link to WP:MOS main lede is WP MOS "consistent with the titles of related articles". I take it you're in agreement that Miss Janković was born Janković and has Janković on her passport and is Janković in Serbian-Latin sources. So your objection to WP MOS "consistent with the titles of related articles" is what exactly? What makes this Janković different? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:24, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How Jelena Jankovic was born and what's on her passport and how her name is spelled in Serbian-Latin sources is completely irrelevant for the English wikipedia. The title of her article here depends on the spelling of her name in reliable English-language sources per WP:UE policy. "Related articles" doesn't refer to people having the same native family name, since that doesn't imply they are related. "Related articles" means articles that fall within the same domain or scope, for example articles about astronomical bodies or articles about chemistry... that are "related articles" and we generally try for consistency in naming the articles that are within the same scope. Articles about professional tennis players are also "related articles". So we should look for consistency with Novak Djokovic and Ana Ivanovic here, which becomes an argument in favor of the requested move. MakeSense64 (talk) 17:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We've just been through this - Kauffner searched the string "Jelena+Janković" and could only find 2 sources which were enabled to use Gaj's Latin alphabet that even mentioned this particular Janković. This goes back to the question of would you search for the colour of a rose in book of black and white photos? Do you get the analogy? I agree that there's some mileage in your argument about the related articles in category:Serbian female tennis players and category:Serbian male tennis players.In ictu oculi (talk) 10:27, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. I don't think even the most ardent supporter of diacritics would disagree the large majority of English-language reliable sources do not use the diacritic for Jankovic's name. My interpretation of WP:UE and WP:UCN is that we should follow what the majority of reliable sources do. I do not feel that The New York Times, the BBC, the many books published by respectable publishers and so on can be dismissed as unreliable. What's most telling to me is that, while the Serbian version of her personal website uses the diacritics, the English version does not – clearly even the subject sees dropping the diacritics as a valid translation of her name into English. Jenks24 (talk) 06:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The name without diacritics is merely a spelling of convenience, not an encyclopedic one, which requires greater accuracy. Doremo (talk) 07:18, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is the spelling that Jelena uses to identify herself in English. She could easily use a foreign diacritic spelling but she does not. This case really should be open and shut in favor of the English alphabet in this English wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Even though she appears in the English-speaking world as Jankovic, her surname is Janković. - Darwinek (talk) 10:22, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply. That's true, but we do not have any policy or guideline asking us to use native spelling in article titles. What we have is a policy asking us to depend on English-language usage WP:UE. MakeSense64 (talk) 11:00, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Jelena Jankovic already redirects here. The consensus position is that WP neither encourages nor discourages diacritics. This move would result in a needless loss of precision for the sake of stripping out a character that some readers do not believe ought to ever be used in namespaces. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 05:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, as this is the English language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments: