Sexology and sexuality B‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality articles B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

I hope this is submitted properly. RE: "Human pregnancy lasts approximately 9 months between the time of the last menstrual cycle and birth (38 weeks from fertilisation)." I have reason to believe that "(38 weeks from fertilisation)." is correct, but "9 months between the time of the last menstrual cycle and birth" can only be /correct/ with the preceding "approximately". More correct would be (approx.) "40 weeks between the time of the last menstrual cycle and birth". 9 months is LESS than 38 weeks, but fertilisation occurs AFTER the last cycle, so seems incorrect. I hope this makes sense, is accurate, and is helpful.

This new article needs a lot of work, mainly summarising the sections with main articles. This has been spun out of pregnancy, which should now focus on the general topic. violet/riga (t) 23:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to come up with a decent section order but it may need revising. The interwiki links at pregnancy may also need reviewing. violet/riga (t) 23:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

One more thing - the incoming links for pregnancy need to be disambiguated. violet/riga (t) 23:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is outrageous. JFW | T@lk 21:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's hardly an actionable criticism. What do you see as "outrageous"? violet/riga (t) 21:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ahh, I think I see. I've undone the moves that -Ril- did as I think (and others seemed to also) that human pregnancy should be the primary disambig for pregnancy. Further, -Ril- had not fixed the redirects. violet/riga (t) 21:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Violet. I thought you'd gather :-) I will firmly oppose further move attempts. This sort of monstrosities has nothing to do with NPOV, but more with notability. The vast majority of users looking up pregnancy will want human pregnancy, not the animal sort. It is HPOV (human POV), as animals cannot read an encyclopedia. JFW | T@lk 06:58, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you stating your opinion that they are not allowed to read an encyclopedia? I'm sorry but your minimalist animalist views disgust me! ;) violet/riga (t) 08:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Guys (and gals) please cheak the statistic of 15 beats/min on the mother's heart rate. That can't possibly be right. Perhaps 15bpm increase is what was meant.

Yup, 15 beats/minute increase sounds more like it. Alex.tan July 5, 2005 02:14 (UTC)

The pregnancy article should create a new paragraph, on safety and health tips, to help pregnant women in self-care and to protect the health of their unborn baby. Tips and advice on physical examinations, proper nutrition, avoidance of drugs and alcohol, and what to do a premmature labor occurs. These can be helpful as a quick reference or an educational tool relating to pregnancy health. + 207.200.116.203 01:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The second trimiester is is the midway point of pregnancy, so most women do not feel as sick as before and not yet uncomfortable when she starts to have other aches. She begins to handle her growing belly, but can experience mood swings depending on how she is. Most pregnant women are furthermore relieved from the first 3 months, then plans to handle six more by wearing maternity or larger clothes, and emotionally set to focus on the health of her unborn baby. Sexual activity remains generally safe to mother and baby, except not advised by her doctor/OB-gyn. A large proportion of pregnant women continue normal sexual relations with their spouses. Some feel more excited during the second trimester while others do not react this way : there is no rule but a major male phantasm.+ 207.200.116.203 01:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some women in their third trimester experience strong heartburn, indigestion, intestinal gas, upset stomach, constipation and reports of occassional vomiting, but different from nausea or "morning sickness". Her body may be preparing for the birthing process, so she could experience symptoms related from the size of the fetus pushs onto her stomach or intestines. In 36 to 38 weeks, the position of her belly, actually the uterus "drops" as the fetus' head presses down on her cervical/pubic area. This is a natural response to deliver a baby normally unless otherwise a complication occurs. This may call for an induced labor or a cesarean section in order to easily and safely deliver the baby.+ 207.200.116.203 01:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of style and form, I'd suggest making Andrew's vertical list into two-colums (easier to read, saves space), and moving lists down below toward the middle. (Ive just done numer 2)

The reason for the move was that definitions arent always prerequisites for the average end user, and obstruct reading. We can make each entry a linked footnote, which will take some time. I would do it now, but Im done for today. Sinreg, and happy editing, St|eve 19:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The 'Colloquial' section should migrate to wiktionary 00:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)~

Plus it is so massively out of date!! No one in "England" (a horrendous americanism for the UK or Great Britain) would say "with child"; that's arcane! "Knocked up", "up the duff", "bun in the oven" etc maybe, but "with child"?!??? larkim 16:25, 1 January 2005 (GMT)

You're definitely wrong there larkim. Dappled Sage 00:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is link is relevant.

• '1001 About Pregnancy'

Please review it.. Thanks before

This is link is relevant and topical. What's the reason for deleting it?

• Alan Guttmacher Institute (2005) The Implications of Defining When a Woman Is Pregnant Discussion of the political and legal background. patsw 21:03, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Who says the AGI has the final word? Pregnancy is scientifically defined as the implantation of a zygote in the decidua. Why should it be policised? JFW | T@lk 21:15, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your reply doesn't indicate a reason for deleting it. Who says the AGI has the final word? Not I and not the AGI. The link is there for people to click or not click as they choose. If there is another article on the definition of pregnancy and its implications that you would like to have here, please add it. patsw 21:38, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This link is for a pregnancy calculator and was removed once,

• Pregnancy Calculator

I think it is certainly relevant and the site has only one ad unit. Most of the other links have one or more ad units and they have not been removed. I've reinstated the link but please review it and let me know if you agree/disagree. Thank you.

I changed the section on dating pregnancy to clarify a bit. I think that the section is still a bit awkward, mixing use of "age" and "date", and therefore "before" and "older". Happyharris 18:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand this part: "Approximately 3.6% of all mothers deliver on the due date predicted by LMP, and only 4.7% give birth on the day predicted by ultrasound." Especially the "only 4.7%" confuses, since that value is lower than the 3.6% it is contrasted to. Generally, these values sound quite low. Shouldn't we reach 100% if we add them?

Not necessarily. Some mothers may not give birth on the due date predicted by LMP OR ultrasound. --DearPrudence 07:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help but feel this article is a bit of a mess, and an important one. Anyone feel like working on a reorganization? Trollderella 17:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Holy hell she's right. This article needs quite a bit of work. Can we get going on establishing a sufficient organizational structure? Heres my attempt:

1. Introduction (duh
   • definition
   • summary of start, end
2. Pregnancy in summary
   • myths
   • coping mechanisms (need a better term here, but training classes, simluated pregnancies, etc.)
3. Time line
   • first
   • second
   • third
   • birth
4. health risks
   • to mother
   • to fetus
   • failed pregnancies
5. history of understanding
   • fetal development
6. see also

I like this - can we work on it on Talk:Pregnancy/new? Trollderella 17:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Pregnancy should also address fetal development in full I think

Very good. Tell me when the pregnancy article is reorganized. The last time the page was edited, there was no "history of understanding" and there has been great strides in pregnancy: the studies of embryology and fetal development. Surgeries performed on the fetus is a reality to correct medical problems such as spina bifida and the surrogate mother phenomenon that can remind us: What if that women is having some others' baby? LoL. Please, put more in depth info. in the pregnancy article. --Mike D 26 07:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I(no expert on medecine,law or pregnancy) haven't heard of anywhere that considers a third trimester foetus "a distinct living person". Is this really true?, in some countries there are extra legal protections for third trimesters foetus's but are they really considered a person anywhere? I thought this was pushed for (by pro-life groups)in some states of the US but not actually law. Anyone know the truth?

You have no idea how stupid some of the conservatives are that we have to deal with here. :( --66.229.183.101 03:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please achieve some consensus on this talk page from other users before you continue to change the word, or rework the entire sentence to leave out the possibility of implying anything without relaying the information. Perhaps use "many" instead of "most" or "often." JHMM13 (T | C) 04:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I had had a lousy day (not that that's any excuse.) I didn't really pay attention to the details of what I was editing and I should have. --66.229.183.101 05:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not a third trimester fetus is "a distinct living person", shouldn't it be treated as one & be provided every chance to live at that point? I would hope that would be the goal at that late stage of pregnancy, so I don't understand why the verbiage is an issue. Just my 2-cents.

I guess my comment really has nothing to do with the current subject, but I'd just like to know exactly why it's so outrageous to say that an embryo/fetus is a human. I don't mean to start an argument (though I probably will), but I just want to hear a different point of view. Most scientists would say that if you have human genes, you're a human, even if you are just a few (one?) cell/s across.

So a scraping of still-living skin cells are a human being? As are the countless zygotes that don't make it to implantation? Is an egg or sperm, by extension, half a human being? I'd be one of the first to say that a third-trimester fetus is human by all(or at least the vast majority) of the criteria by which we define humanity, but there's a sizeable difference between an unborn fetus and, say, a lymphocyte. At any rate, the nomenclature is the nomenclature, and the law is the law. If any laws have expressly defined third-trimester fetuses as human beings, leave the article unchanged, or maybe expand it to clarify which courts have ruled to that effect. If this is not the case, a minor edit is probably in order. 85.64.246.205 20:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All that is truly important here is that Wikipedia treat this topic with a Neutral Point of View. An unverifiable assertion ("distinct living person") is just that -- an assertion. Wikipedia is an encyclopdiea, not an Op-Ed page. Heathhunnicutt 22:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It confused me for quite some time that the picture says "monat", which I now assume is German for "month". The picture is great, but can change it to English?--Cuchullain 03:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed (not by me). Rmhermen 21:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the use of the term "unborn" is more political than scientific, and is not NPOV. Can we revise that? or get a discussion going here on its validity? I've only ever heard it used by anti-choicers, and in a political context. XINOPH | TALK 17:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC) [reply]

My perception as well. It's not a medical term. If it is, sources please. It's not defined in Stedman's Medical Dictionary, nor is it used to define any other term. Same for Medical Terminology: An Illustrated Guide. The sole purpose seems to provide a rhetorical argument for a baby being a baby in the fetus or embryo stage.--Pro-Lick 16:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it is "not" born yet, it is "unborn". I cannot see how the anti-life people have a problem with this.68.17.252.203 07:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Unborn" may not be innately biased, but "anti-life" isn't exactly the sort of term I'd use on Wikipedia. Though I think I fought something like that at the end of Phantasy Star II. Political connotations aside, I suppose there're grounds for saying that it implies "not yet born", and therefore "waiting/intended to be born". I mean, you wouldn't call a footstool "unborn", despite its never having been born. . Not that any of this matters, really. Offensive or otherwise, it's not a medical term. 85.64.246.205 20:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The picture at the top of the article is not appropriate, will the user who put that garbage there please remove it, thanks.

This uncivil comment was posted by bobsmith319. The picture has been discussed and the concensus view is that it illustrates 'pregnancy' perfectly adequately. If you are offended by the image then please don't visit an uncensored encyclopaedia. I find your view that pregnant women are 'garbage' particularly offensive. Maustrauser 02:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I wanted to let you know that I am very sorry for my actions. I did not mean pregnant women are garbage. I ment that the photo was garbage, which I truly apologize for. Thank you. bobsmith319

The excerpt "Caucasian women are more likely to have a longer pregnancy than other women...a Caucasian woman's first pregnancy lasts an average 274 days from conception (288 days from the last menstrual period)" makes an unwarranted extrapolation of the findings in the source this article cites. The source ( ^ Mittendorf R, Williams MA, Berkey CS, Cotter PF. The length of uncomplicated human gestation. Obstet Gynecol 1990;75:929-32. PMID 2342739.) mentions that "uncomplicated, spontaneous-labor pregnancy in private-care white mothers is longer than Naegele's rule predicts," which simply means the private-care white women cited in the study had longer pregnancies than Naegele's rule would predict. There is no comparison to private-care women of other groups, much less a comparison to other women who did not receive private care during their pregnancies. I have therefore deleted the misleading passage. Kemet 30 March 2006

Good edit. Systemic problem with editors adding text from a single source as a definitive fact. FloNight ^talk 22:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I wanted to let you know that I am very sorry for my actions. I did not mean pregnant women are garbage. I ment that the photo was garbage, which I truly apologize for. Thank you.

I am pretty annoyed that the stages of labour diagram was removed without any discussion. I spent some time on making it appropriate for publication. It was a US Government image and therefore not a copy-vio. Can anyone explain why it was deleted plaese. Maustrauser 23:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It appears as if the diagrams on the government website are copyrighted. Here is the discussion from the common [1]. I thought these were very good images. I think it would be very helpful if we could find an adequate replacement. Any ideas? Anyone an illustrator?--Andrew c 14:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support moving the Trimester article into this one... if I have some support I'll do it. Joshuagross 20:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not. As it is, people are making edits to promote pro-life points of view, and breaking this page up into a multitude of pages just gives more cracks for the Biased-Point-of-View people to sneak in through, Joshua. Heathhunnicutt 21:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Get a grip- the man was only asking- sheesh. 58.178.34.122 20:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I also do not support the merge. Cburnett 05:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How on earth is merging Trimester (which discusses the timeline of a pregnancy), to the section here that discusses the timeline of a pregnancy -- promoting any view, either pro-life or pro-choice? It's simply a matter of redundancy and organization. The first response above makes me believe s/he felt the article was about to be split up, not merged... I support a merge. Can we get more reasons as to why duplicate info shouldn't be merged, rather than just "I don't support it"? --Rehcsif 14:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The trimester article has no real need to discuss pro-life/choice issues, but for one thing the fetus is a developing organism that shall appear into the world. It sounds more neutral while in the avoidance of terms "baby" to promote pro-life and "not living" to the pro-choice side. I understand most pregnant mothers talks about the "baby" is moving, kicking, breathing, etc. then will rule out the "baby" hasn't officially came to life in the eyes of society and legality. Wikipedians know well the best way to solve the issue isn't approved in Pregnancy article. Let's keep the article relevant in the biological, medical and physiological discussion. Political statements left by members or anon IPs are inappropriate and shall be removed.--Mike D 26 07:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. - I support merging or redirecting the Timester article to this article or section. - Cybergoth 21:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge them. The trimester subject makes the most sense within the pregnancy article. Doc502 03:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Better late than never, trimester is officially merged. Tocharianne 04:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I move to replace the current image, "the silhouette of a pregnant woman" with one that is a little more work safe or get rid of it all together if one cannot be found. 12.205.90.191 02:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One, there's really nothing wrong with it. Two, it's a fabulous picture. Three, Wikipedia is not censored for those of delicate sensibilities. Nandesuka 03:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Work safe? Is it illegal to look up an encyclopaedia at work? Absolutely keep! Maustrauser 05:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to remove. What's the point of nudity? Anyone? Does it add to the usefulness of the article? Um, no. It'll offend a lot of people, which alone isn't reason to remove something, but in matters like this it's just pointless. Definitely remove. --Joshuagross 05:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How is a pregnant woman offensive? All those offended should remember that they were born of woman! If you look up pregnancy in an encyclopaedia you expect to see a pregnant woman. Viewer beware. Leave as is. Maustrauser 06:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, don't be foolish. Don't you think it's a little unnecessary that her full nude body is in view? How does that add to the article? It's so dark you can't even see anything that WOULD be important - just her breasts sticking out and her belly... wow, very educational. --Joshuagross 06:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. "It's so dark you can't see anything..." So what is the problem. Do you call all people who disagree with you foolish? Maustrauser 11:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe he was trying to say we should get a better-lit nude picture. Heathhunnicutt 18:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, of course. Can anyone arrange a better lit nude photo? Mirasmus 03:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it the way it is ... pregnancy is a natural feminine thing and the photo shows the beauty of a woman carrying a baby in her body. Whoever finds the photo graphic or uncomfortable, please understand the artistic tastes and innocence of the photograph. Note the woman model permitted herself to get her picture taken in this state, but the tint was darkened to preserve her privacy. + 207.200.116.203 01:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many different language versions of the pregnancy article don't carry the nude preg. model photo, like I mentioned in the Espanol/spanish version. The majority of complaints in the English speaking world appears to come from Americans. As a person from the U.S. I'm proud of my country's freedoms to discuss, disagree and figure their own minds on that photo. The British, Australians and Canadians seem to been lax on the issue, but Americans by comparison are more conservative in some social and moral matters. The U.S. has a greater variety of opinions, then we deal with high volume of social controversy and why it's more divisive to discuss politics and morality, out of all places, in America. I'm from California, where we tend to get liberal and whatever social changes take place in Cal. ends up spreading outward across the country. Sure, democracies have free speech to make a fair mature arguement, but the nude preg. photo isn't generating high opposition, but some people don't like the photo, in the UK and Europe. The nude preg. photo is not better-lit in order not to display private parts of the model's body, so everyone can view, but not all won't be disturbed or offended. + 207.200.116.203 01:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, the second picture is great, I think. Agap afima 23:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The picture surprised me, but its a natural photo. This is how we are born. Maybe add a Warning template at the top, people do take it offensive, especially parents. --Yancyfry jr 04:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dont see a reason to not put the term trimester in the pregnancy section since it is the most common form of use.

It sounds like some people want to keep the photo up partly to spite those who are offended by it. But regardless, it personally caught me by surprise. Although there is absolutely nothing inherently "bad" about a pregnant woman, the picture can be shocking for those who are not expecting it and are not used to coming across nudity in their daily browsings. Further, there will always be those psychos out there who will take this photo in a less-than-pure way, and I really don't want see a good Wikipedia article contributing to that, however innocent it may be. A nude photo will offend some and can cause a stir, subsequently distracting from the article itself; a more covered photo will offend virtually no one and will not result in any lost educational effect. To me, it's a no-brainer. -- Tim 14:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If the consensus wants the pic gone I'll leave it be when people remove it; I only reverted to add it back because the consensus seemed to me to keep the picture and there's no policy to remove it (indeed, the policy seems to indicate it should stay). I really don't care; I just remembered this debate and noticed someone changed it again. Kuronue 15:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's kind of hard to judge consensus in a forum like this, but personally, I would err on the safe side. If nudity was crucial to the article, or at least added something significant to it, then by all means the image should stay. However, I do not think that applies in this case. I wouldn't exactly look at the clothed woman and think "what the heck is going on here?" and then reach full clarity upon seeing the nude picture. Tim 17:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's a vere nice picture and I oogled at it a bit. :-) But, hey, for all the talk it's generating, replace it with a more clothed one! As Tdowling states, a more covered photo won't cause the article to lose any value. Or, at least, for those whose sensibilities are easily offended - or who browse wiki at work and don't want the boss walking in on them looking at naked women - move the picture lower down the page. Poweroid 17:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realize at the time that this was a hot topic. I just was so surprised at work that I just removed it right away. I think that the nudity certainly should be removed. If someone needs to see what a naked pregnant woman looks like, maybe a link should be provided. However, there is no justifiable reason to keep a naked picture of anyone - whether man or woman - pregnant or not - on a highly visited encyclopedia site. Wikipedia should certainly be work friendly - nudity is not. Itsstaceyl 19:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The oft-cited example is frenum piercing -- caution, definatly not work-safe. The picture there is of exactly what the article is speaking, and you'd be hard-pressed to find one that illustrates it without being "obscene". Nudity sometimes is needed in an encyclopedia. This article? who knows. Kuronue 20:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, it appears to me that we don't have good rationale for keeping the photo, in that it does not add new information or meaningfully supplement any material that is already there. I move to take it down. -- Tim 15:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree. A nude pregnant photo shows clearly the baby in the belly without clothing distorting the image. Nudity and pregnancy go very much together. Women nearly always give birth naked when they aren't forced onto their back in western hospitals. Conception nearly always takes place with both the male and female naked. If you go to an article about pregnancy you surely must EXPECT to see nakedness. You might even see a baby's head crowning in the vagina. If you are browsing pregnancy at work then you should expect to see human anatomy. How can it possibly be considered offensive? The vast majority of readers entered the world naked and down a vagina. What's the problem? This image has been here for many, many months. This article has been viewed by thousands of people and yet a small minority of people who find nudity offensive now wish to remove it. Remember WP is not censored Read the WP disclaimer at the bottom of the page. It says: Wikipedia contains many different images, some of which are considered objectionable or offensive by some readers. For example, some articles contain graphical depictions of violence, or depictions of human anatomy. Maustrauser 00:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nudity and pregnancy go together just as much as nudity and being alive go together. Personally, I did *not* expect to see nudity in this article, especially as the first thing that I saw on the screen. Showing a baby breaching during childbirth is one thing - showing a naked pregnant woman is another. A bare-bellied but otherwise clothed woman would be no less effective in conveying what pregnancy physically looks like, and the fact that this is simply an amateur (i.e., not clinical) photo makes it seem that much less appropriate. Lack of censorship on WP is irrelevant, IMHO; would it be just as okay to include a photo of a nude non-pregnant woman in order to compare? I think that people would generally be a little uncomfortable with that, yet the utility of that picture is the same.

At least for now, I would really like to at least move the photo in question to a place lower on the page. -- Tim 05:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still cannot fathom how a naked woman (who is rather discretely photographed in profile) can be considered offensive. A clothed body would show the distorted shape of her belly and not show how her breasts have changed during pregnancy. Those breasts are going to be used for feeding her baby and thus it makes considerable educative sense to show the woman naked. Maustrauser 05:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You just have to be aware of others' cultural perspectives. Some are much more sensitive to this kind of thing than others are. And regardless of what anyone may think, a person could potentially find their job at risk if they are seen browsing a nude photo at work. Zero-tolerance sucks, but it's a reality in many places. Besides this, an illustration of belly size is one thing, but the size of the breasts is meaningless here unless there is a comparison picture. Thus, you would need a "before-and-after" to really put educational value into it. But then there's a risk of stirring up even more controversy. My ideal solution: external links. -- Tim 06:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you say in your post of 5:34 that censorship is irrelevant when it appears that this article is proposed to be censored because some people, for cultural or religious reasons find an photo of a naked woman offensive? I would have thought that most readers of the English WP would not find nudity offensive for cultural reasons. Some may find it offensive for religious reasons (though I can't fathom why either - especially as the Bible tells us that we are fashioned in God's image!). But either way, WP is not censored as WP policy states and I think the WP disclaimer makes it very clear that when you go to articles about the human body, you are going to see pictures of the human body. Maustrauser 06:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship is not irrelevant - what's irrelevant is the fact that there is a lack of censorship by a governing body (which is what the disclaimer is referring to). That leaves the responsibility in the hands of the self-made editors (you and me and everyone else). Ironically, I could post a picture of hard core pornography and caption it as "an example of a process used to induce pregnancy," and that would actually be more relevant to the article than the picture that is currently up there because it provides illustration for a process that could not be fully conveyed in any other way. The main point here is that this is not an argument about whether the naked body is "dirty" (by nature, it isn't); the argument is over the point of a nude photo in an encyclopedic entry that does not necessitate a nude photo. And the bottom line, in my eyes, is that if something is potentially offensive and its education value does not outweigh its potential for offense, then it should not be there. No harm is done and no value is taken away in removing the photo, but there can be harm in keeping it - regardless of how you or others personally feel about it. -- Tim 15:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no good reason to delete the photo -- it's clearly relevant to the article, and isn't going to get anyone fired -- but I think it would be reasonable to move it down further in the article. Not because it's nude qua nude, but because it's a bit distracting appearing in the lead paragraphs of a long article, and is jammed right up against the other photo. I'd argue that we should put both photos lower down in the article, and space them well apart from each other. Nandesuka 23:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is a good compromise that should meet the needs of most users. I'm happy to make that change in the next couple of days. I'll wait to see if there are any severe objections to that proposal. Maustrauser 02:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, screw it - I said all that I wanted to say. I thought I made sense...but hey, I'm biased :) -- Tim 04:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Nadesuka, the idea to move it down the page isn't new. I proposed at 17:51 on the 22nd ;-) Poweroid 16:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well done Poweroid. I would have noticed your suggestion but I was distracted by the thought that you were busy oogling... Thank you to Kuronue for making the actual changes to the photo's location and caption. Maustrauser 00:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll oogle lower down. No, that doesn't sound right. Oh well, you know what I mean :) Poweroid 14:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and just to be annoying, how come we talk about size increase in her breasts and stomach but not her hips and thighs? Never mind, I'm just being pedantic! Poweroid 14:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of which, the change isn't that obvious. Before-and-after pictures sounds more sensible, and not for the sake of censorship, but also for the sake of clarity. For now I think I'll just put a warning :P 219.75.79.78 16:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it's important enough to merit an edit, but I live in california and I've never heard the term "lady-in-waiting" used to describe a pregnant woman. perhaps it's more localized than just the USA? Also, "preggers" has gained popularity in chat rooms, especially in the roleplaying commmunity (I only know a few people who have never typed "my/his/her char is/was preggers", and they're the ones saying "it's barely shorter and it's AOLien and I hate it, hmmph"). Also, is the last sentance misplaced? Shouldn't it be near the top, if you were looking for alternate definitions for "pregnant", as it's not a colloquial term for pregnancy?

on another note, the information about what happens to a woman during pregnancy is rather terse. I came researching the link between symptoms of going on The Pill and symptoms of pregnancy (mostly the linkn between the same increased hormones leading to side effects) and couldn't find anything about hormones in the woman. If I knew the answer I'd embellish the article. Kuronue 00:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard artistic terms on pregnancy I feel is best described: A pregnant woman is compared to a flower buds to a fruit, as the fruit symbolizes a seed about to drop and fertilize into a new tree/flower. Many people don't like the term "knocked up" as improper and crude to make an analogy to pregnant women in an illict affair. The popularly adapted "preggers" seems cute and jovial, while another one "prego" is common in the U.S. The pregnancy article seems to enter the pro-life/pro-choice debate, as some edits deleted any reference to a fetus as a "baby" or "child". Please don't delete them to promote your POV. Please discuss abortion-related and sanctity of life issues in its' appropriate place. The pregnancy article only says what's scientific and how an expecting mother considers the unborn, the way most prefer it. --Mike D 26 07:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The spanish language version of "pregnancy" articles has extra information that the English version fails to mention. The discussion of whenever or not sexual relations can continue is found in the Spanish version, despite the social mores there rule out against that, except Spain and Mexico tends to share the Western viewpoint of sexual relations during pregnancy. There's no nude photo in this one, probably the cultural rules and national laws might prohibited it. Spain and Latin America has conflicting words and meanings, so there's no single form of the Spanish language. I suggest the pregnancy article is subdivided into Castillian spanish and Latin American spanish. Spanish laws don't restrict artistic depictions of pregnancy, Mexican law up to my knowledge is otherwise tolerant, and I question more reform-minded South American laws in Chile, Uruguay and Argentina. The Spanish version pregnancy article is shorter and not well covered on information that the English version was not shy to cover. Note the U.S. Department of Health has a spanish version web link on health and physiology of pregnancy available in Spanish and other languages written/spoken in the U.S.+207.200.116.203 00:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Help is needed in cleaning up/debunking/verifying/holding to a higher standard in the article Male pregnancy. In case the tags are removed by the guy who is adding the ridiculous content, here is a link to a good part of the [history|http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Male_pregnancy&oldid=58648335]

Pipe links work the other way. As the guy who is adding the ridiculous content, I have to add that it'd be quite helpful in mediating this dispute if you finally told why the content is ridiculous, or what would qualify as credible, or why you seem to be ignoring the sources that have been given. --Kizor 11:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is an article called Beginning of pregnancy controversy. Is it possible to work this wikilink into this article somewhere? I wanted to run this by the editors here before being too bold.--Andrew c 15:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. I will work it in.Ferrylodge 01:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little lost here, can't seem to find the controversy, if someone finds the picture unsuitable, whatever the reason, can they not take it down? Or put something else there? grendel's mother 02:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See above for info about the nude pic; one camp has that nudity is untasteful and therefore should be removed, the other camp is of the belief that the image is either a) natural and should be included due to the not-censored-for-minors policy or b) shows vital changes in the female anatomy that the covered image does not show (mostly in the breasts). I've moved the image partway down so it's beside medical and edited the caption for the second camp's b-people, left it there for second-camp a's people, and moving it will ensure that nobody will see it if they just want to read the opening paragraph to find out what pregnancy is (say, a non-native speaker), but will have to look for it and can scroll it offscreen easily if it offends or they are in an unsafe enviornment. Kuronue 22:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And then there's the third camp: those who don't feel the the picture is distasteful on its own, but do feel that it is unnecessary because it doesn't add anything meaningful to the article. Here's a thought for those who are open to other opinions: if you want to show naked breasts as an illustration of what happens during pregnancy, show a comparison picture of the same woman before (or at the very beginning of) pregnancy. That's the only situation in which the image is useful and makes sense. And it would shut me up!! -- Tim 01:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Got one? I could donate from my, ahem, personal collection, but it wouldn't be the same model ~_^ Or are you volunteering to knock someone up and take photos? Kuronue 15:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hold on, lemme check with the wife..........nope, sorry, I can't knock'er up quite yet. Guess we'll have to rely on someone else's work! -- Tim 06:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If Kuronue puts his whole collection online we could go through them and pick out the ones who are pregnant. (Unless the preg. pics comprise his entire collection :)) Poweroid 12:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If Kuronue puts HER entire collection online we could go through them and find that none of them are pregnant-- but if Kuronue puts both her entire collection AND the collections of her much more kinky friends online, we might have something ~_^ Check the userpage ^^ Kuronue 15:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Holy moly, I think we're on to something! Seriously, though, I think a good before-and-after picture would be fantastic. Not in a "heh-heh, boobs" sort of way, but as a real illustration of how the body changes through pregnancy. Maybe someone can come up with non-copyrighted work that fits in with this. -- Tim 15:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Damn, sorry for being too lazy to check the user page before posting, Kuronue. I was also unaware you had kinky friends. It's getting more and more interesting but I'll drag myself back to Tim's suggestion. :-) Maybe a health clinic/hospital will let us use pics they originally took for education/publicity. Poweroid 16:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In all seriousness, if my boyfriend lets me, I'd donate a picture of myself naked; however, I won't be pregnant for quite some time (*crossing fingers*) so it'd be before-only. Kuronue 16:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ha...that's a gracious offer, Kuronue, but yeah, I'm thinking that maybe a pair of clinical pictures of the same person would be slightly better accepted here than a seemingly random non-pregnant nude :) -- Tim 18:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, The image of the nude women is not in good taste at all, please remove it soon. bobsmith319

Hi Bobsmith...there's been quite a discussion on this already - and I don't think that you'll get too far, even with polite demands. If the issue can't be resolved through a compromise, one side giving up, etc., we may want to bring in some arbitration from administrators. --Tim D 02:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, expect more. We'll keep getting people (who haven't noticed that there is extensive prior discussion) pointing out their belief that the image is "inappropriate". :( Because who reads all previous discussion before posting? I, for one....er, I better not admit anything... Poweroid 16:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No...pleez keep it. What a wonderful moment it is when a pregnant woman looks at herself...nude or part-nude. It's so beautiful it made me shed a tear. I'm a single mother of a baby boy and shared that moment with a new man in my life. I'm glad some men aren't deterred by how I've looked, because he told me it's the most feminine thing to happen to me :-D I never got any support from my ex-bf, though family and friends are there for me. -Natalie

Well, see here's the thing...while to some people it may be beautiful and generate emotion, that's not the purpose of this article. We have to look at the educational value of any content put on the page. This picture doesn't provide the value that a two-way comparison picture would, and it doesn't provide any more value than a slightly covered (or "less offensive" in some eyes) picture would. --Tim D 20:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, we are talking about removing the image, it isn't right to have it up there. If you would like, go ahead and find a photo that looks like that, and put it up. bobsmith319.

I find it peculiar that because one or two people's sensibilities are affected by an image that we write thousands of words trying to make them see that their version of 'offensive' is not what the majority (the silent majority in this case) appear to find to find offensive. Perhaps user_talk:bobsmith319 could spend his time visiting the pornographic links in WP and using his efforts there, rather than picking on something so absolutely natural as a naked woman appearing within an article about Pregnancy. This appears to be his personal crusade. As I have indicated before, this photo is FAR more educational than a clothed body. Maustrauser 23:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I said it before and I'll say it again: comparison pictures >> single nude picture. How about someone get something going on that. Let's not bring this down to a simple issue of definitions of decency. --Tim D 00:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm working on it Tim. It does take some effort though! An in the meantime this is a comparison photo. Most of us know what a naked woman looks like under normal circumstances and therefore this is a comparison photo. Anyway, to make complainants happier I am planning uploading a series of three photos, 10 weeks, 26 weeks and 40 weeks. I can't see user_talk:bobsmith319 liking it though as the woman is still unclothed. Maustrauser 00:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are they of the same person? I'm not saying that there should be a picture of some random non-pregnant woman, if that's what it sounds like! Maybe if you get those up there, a notice could be placed at the top of the page saying that there are unclothed pictures later in the article. --Tim D 04:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Relax! They are all of the same woman. The delay in getting them up is they need a bit of photoshopping and we need to find some time to do it. I don't think we use disclaimers on WP regarding nudity. I've never seen it anywhere else. I still think if you look up 'pregnancy' you need to expect that you might see a naked body.Maustrauser 04:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, it's all good. Just trying to be sensitive to the the young'uns and the "can't let the boss see a naked lady on my monitor" folks :) --Tim D 05:20, 3 October 2006

(UTC)

Please cease from putting inapropriate images in Wikipedia. bobsmith319.

G'day user_talk:bobsmith319. You have never attempted to explain why a discreet photo of a naked woman is so objectionable to you. Perhaps you should go and visit a few other parts of WP and discuss your notion of what is offensive with a few other editors. Try: Daniel Lorenz Johnson, Naked, Nudity and children, Spencer Tunick, Public nudity, Terri Sue Webb, Naturism, and People in social nudity just for starters. Maustrauser 14:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help, bobsmith319.

Maustrauser, thanks for those links to explain your point. Do you have any more? Poweroid 15:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only kidding, only kidding! :-) Poweroid 15:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to suggest a before and after picture, or even before, during and after as the time goes on. Nude or non nude, if someone thinks they have a good pictures, post the link of pictures here. Anyone having a baby?--WhereAmI 05:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please DO NOT send links of pictures of naked women, this is NOT ok to do. However, adding pictured of pregnant women that are clothed are perectly fine. bobsmith319.

huh does the link missing from bobsmith319 name mean he has been banned? yay. Again, please see my post above asking for some timing pictures. If you think they are good, post them to flickr(if they are non-nude at least) an leave the link here so we may discuss if the change is good or not, considering there is controversy.--WhereAmI 05:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)--69.210.132.68 05:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it means he's not using four tildes but instead typing his username to sign- it's been like that since the beginning. note the lack of wikilink on his name when you edit this page. Kuronue 16:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! How offensive that you want me banned. Anyway, I don't know how to sign with the link. I if someone could show me that would be great. Thank you! bobsmith319.

Hi Bobsmith - you sign your name with four tildes (~~~~). It automatically throws everything in after you save your comment. -- Tim D 22:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

People who don't want to see pictures of the human body should not be reading articles on medical topics! Note that, by policy, Wikipedia is not censored. An article on pregnancy certainly benefits from an image of the pregnant human body. I agree that having several comparison photos might be useful, but it might take up too much space and certainly won't address Bobsmith's concern (quite the contrary, I suspect).

Someone mentioned adding a disclaimer or warning. There is a policy (or guideline) against disclaimers on articles. The disclaimers are located here, and the specific disclaimer on content is Wikipedia:Content disclaimer. There are legal issues with putting disclaimers on individual articles. In particular, if we add such disclaimers or warnings, we can be held liable for failing to do so if someone leaves one off an article. Collecting all the disclaimers together in one place prevents this.--Srleffler 05:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still think that little is benefited without a comparison picture. I don't think that two would end up taking too much space. Now, my personal opinion is that a topless model does not add significantly more than one who is not topless, but that's just me. But basically, a comparison would be best, clothed or not; it would be educational, while the current image just satisfies a curiosity at best. -- Tim D 06:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tim, I think a comparison photo would work, but to make things less complicated, I think the person in the image should be clothed. user:bobsmith319

Colleagues, As promised, I have finally got around to including a comparison photograph. I hope you find it acceptable and illustrative of the concept. I have also taken the liberty to remove the clinical and not very helpful German illustration. As it had no explanatory text the reader couldn't quite work out what all the lines meant. User:Bobsmith319, would you be so kind as to sign your name properly. You have been asked on many occasions to do it and for some reason you find it objectionable. It is simply Wikiettiquette that people can easily see your talk page and your contributions to the encyclopaedia. Your continual refusal to have a live link suggests that you have something to hide or you continue to delete comments from your talk page and I'm certain that isn't true. Maustrauser 23:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That looks great, Maustrauser, thanks for going through the trouble! Congratulations on the upcoming (or current?) bundle of joy, by the way :) -- Tim D 04:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Tim. The woman in the photo is not my partner, but a friend. It was a splendid birth and she is very happy! Cheers, Henry. Maustrauser 05:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing to hide you are right. I do not have anything against signing that way at all, and I will begin to sign corectly right now. bobsmith319.

Hello Maustrauser, The photos are great, just what the article needed! Congrats to your friend who just had her child! bobsmith319.

I don't have anything to add to this dicussion, but I did notice something. �Bobsmith never explained his reasons for finding the picture offensive. He always overlooked the question. Also I find it kinda weird that an educational picture was removed just to make one person happy, especially a person who is known for forcing his views on other people. (This is a test, bobsmith. If you just happen to "forget" to answer why you found the nude picture offensive, then we'll know you're trying to avoid the question)

A nude photo is definately appropriate - the article concerns changes to the body, so an unobstucted-by-clothing picture of the body helps to illustrate the changes. Trollderella 02:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I agree with Trollderella - the comparison picture, whilst certainly helpful, perhaps doesn't cover all of the physical changes that occur within the body during pregnancy (as it's more than just the belly getting bigger). Furthermore, the photo provided, whilst a nude, was tasteful enough; the whole reason for taking it down seems to have been one user's aversion to nudity which, whilst unfortunate, doesn't seem to be a particularly good excuse for censoring an encyclopedia, IMHO.--Joseph Q Publique 06:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC) (Comment edited - --Joseph Q Publique 06:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I don't understand how there can be any discussion to begin with; WP:NOT clearly states the wikipedia is not censored--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 02:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Trollderella, You are one of the rudest wikipedians I have met so far. I don't have to answer to you about why I find the image offensive. However, i think I will anyway. Wikipedia is a factual site, not a porn site, and I think the picutre has very little educational value. I will remove the picture. I don't push my ideas on others. Please don't form opinions about a person you don't even know! I find those comments about me extermly offensive and I will take action to get you suspended. bobsmith319.

With all due respect Bob, Removing a very good picture is far ruder then anything Trollderella has said. I ask you to not vandelise anymore pages. Wikipedia is not Censored, and frankly, it is a fact that humans have a body belong these fabrics we wear. Nudity is not porn. It never has, and never will be.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 03:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find that incorrect, if we let one inapropriate image slide by, more serious problems will occur in other places throughout wikipeida. I have a right to remove the image if I would like, and if I am ruddly harrased by other member pushing their opinions on me, I will. This image is wildly inapropriate and should never have been put on Wikipedia in the first place. bobsmith319.

You may find it incorrect, but Wikipedia is not censored. This is the policy and your personal opinion does not overrride that. You like all editors are required to abide by this rule. Please stop vandalizing this article by removing a perfectly appropriate and relevant image from it. Thanks, Gwernol 12:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Really, This is laughible, this image should be the least of any issues you have with Wikipedia's policies. I'm guessing you have yet to view This article.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 23:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have a right to do so if I like. Anyway, please look at my contributions and you will see that I have not edited the actual pregnancy article in several months. Please don't accuse people of something if you have no prrof, that is extremly rude, and if I have to, I will report you. Thanks and Happy Holidays... bobsmith319.

Well, apart from this edit on December 22 and this edit from today on both occasions deleting the image. But, yes if we ignore all the times you've removed the image from the article, you have never removed the image from the article. Please feel free to "report" me wherever you feel fit. I'm not the one who's been trying to censor Wikipedia against policy and against the consensus on this page. Gwernol 18:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No you don't have the right to do such; Wikipedia is not censored, nor is it a one man/woman/Human show. I think you would find a great deal of trouble if you tried to report someone from Fixing your vandalism.

While a comparason image would be useful, we do not have that, we did, but it was copyrighted and thus removed some months ago. However, I think you would object to that image (it was an animated gif file) also, because she was naked (althought it was drawn). This image came from a medical site. I do not think you will ever be able to make up believe that this image is wrong for Wikipedia. If you can not handle it then please leave, do not vandelise people's hard work just because you believe that you are right.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 23:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your cooperation! I don't think there will be a need to report you at the moment. bobsmith319.

Good to see the 'naked' woman is back. It is a good photo that does provide some useful context to pregnancy. I always felt a bit bad about removing it once the comparison photo was completed. It seemed somewhat disrespectful to the woman. I am disappointed to see that Bobsmith319 seems to be using sock-puppets now to impose his view on WP. Maustrauser 23:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I never have or will use other usernames, I am an honest person and would never do such a thing. bobsmith319.

I'm laughing at that comment Bobsmith made about how he'll take steps to suspend Trollderella. You are in no position to be threating to get other Wikipedians suspended, Bob. You keep removing the image of the naked women without permission and refuse to listen to the Wikipedia policy of articles not being censored. If someone going to be suspended, it probably will be you Bob.

P.S. If you don't like the image, then don't look at this article. There is no reason you have to check out a pregnant article all the time unless you have a fetish or something.

Previous user: please use two dashes (-) and four tildes(~) to sign your name properly. Bobsmith319, I can speak for myself when I say I know what you mean, but Wikipedia is a user content site, and users edit it. All of these users here edit, and will continue to edit that picture back in if you, or any others like you remove it without cause. The cause you have stated is it is "pornography." The users here declare it is not "pornography" and shall keep it in the article. Please, drop the subject. Wikipedia Users have spoken how this article shall stay.--WhereAmI 02:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of a completely nude photo, how about this shadow image. --66.218.12.113 04:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And its not porn, but its not appropriate. -66.218.12.113 04:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What isn't Appropriate and why?--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 05:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The shadow photo is a very nice artistic photo, to be sure, but in my mind isn't really clear enough in it's depiction of the physical effects of pregnancy for it to be included in an encyclopedia, IMHO - there's more than just the bump going on, after all. And surely if the nude photo isn't porn, then it becomes appropriate for an article illustrating biological changes, as that is the only reason that I can think that a nude depiction of pregnancy would be inappropriate. Again, I feel quite sincerely that a user's personal aversion to nudity is not a sufficient reason to remove a nude photo from an encyclopedia, especially if it a tasteful photo present to illustrate physical changes in the body. The nude photo that is currently on the page would not look out of place in a medical textbook, after all.--Joseph Q Publique 12:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We're not STILL discussing this, are we? <Sigh>Poweroid 18:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I say no to the shadow.--WhereAmI 03:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's all been said before. WP is not censored. The shadowed picture REDUCES information thus it's not acceptable. MangoMango 22:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 23:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I too agree.--WhereAmI 02:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also strongly agree. The body of pregnant women is nothing wrong, it's a miracle of life that's comming. Hviezda14 16:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know Wikipedia isn't censored, but since this page is pubicly accessable, by kids, we should let it up to the parents to look at this stuff. Plus, check the Pornographic movie articles, I believe some of them actually show nudity. I know Wikipedia isn't censored, but we should take this at a encyclopedic stand point, not a horny schoolboy approach. -66.218.23.154 03:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm... who exactly is being a 'horny schoolboy' here, as you put it? Plenty of people (including myself) have actually put forward arguments as to why this picture does belong in an encyclopedia and why there is merit in putting a nude picture in an encyclopedia article. I'm afraid of sounding like a cracked record here, but I'll repeat it - pregnancy involves more physical changes than just the belly swelling (including changes to the breasts, for one), and it's important to have an image which demonstrates these changes, which this image does IMHO. This picture would not look out of place in any medical or scientific encyclopedia - and as for whether the pornographic movies articles show nudity, that's completely irrelevant for this article. As for concerns about kids and parents, I fail to see how this picture - which is quite tasteful, it must be said - could cause any serious offense or damage to any parent or child outside of the exceptionally prudish. This is an article about physical changes in the body - as such, it's hardly unreasonable for people accessing it (parents included) to expect there to be pictures of the human body in it.--Joseph Q Publique 09:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, To the user who put that pic up there, don't you dare put it up on the article. It maybe a little better, but you can still see some revealing parts that should not be seen. Don't forget: Wikipedia is NOT a porn website.

((subst:unsigned2|04:50 23 February 2007|12.214.61.17}}

I am withdrawing my comment and apologise for creating more animosity rather than trying to discuss this issue reasonably. It is just a touchy issue for me. I will refrain from further discussion on this issue. 12.214.61.17 00:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

also removed comment 12.214.61.17 01:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.214.61.17 (talk • contribs) 05:18, 23 February 2007  (UTC)

NOTE:Blocking user per WP:LEGAL please do not respond to this post any more. KillerChihuahua^?!? 05:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bring it on. Oh and please sign your post. Maustrauser 05:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who would sue Wikipedia? (asides from the fact that A)Medical textbooks/posters almost always have the same sort of stuff, B)this be the interweb's tubes, there are no laws, except for the local website's ones, such as wikipedia, which clearly state other wise on this matter of nudity. Also, Wikipedia's survers are located in California, which apparently has no laws on this.

I agree with Maustrauser, Bring It On--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 05:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

 *sigh* This always comes up, again and again and again. One nipple isn't a threat to national security. The naked body is not an ugly, threatening, shameful, or even an evil thing, and I'm always dismayed by the number of people who seem to think it is. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and that means we aim to provide knowledge; anyone who's ever read medical texts or taken health classes can tell you: drawings and sketches don't show you half as much as real, actual photos. The real photo is more educational. If people want nudie porn shots, Wikipedia is frankly a very boring place to get them. When I was a kid, you know where I went for nudie porn pics? Let me tell you: as sure as the sky is blue, I wouldn't have gone to Wikipedia or any site like it, because there are much, much easier ways to get porn on the web. I hate to shatter anyone's innocent mind, here, but compared to what's out there, this is incredibly tame, and calling it "pornographic" is frankly laughable. – Luna Santin (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well of course you didn;t go to Wikipedia, computers are fairly new, and nobody cares where yo got porn photos, that is not the issue at hand. Please talk about that kind of crap somewhere else! --bobsmith319 02:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't you need a nude photo to show the changes that occur to the breast during pregnancy. Bobsmith, with your huge adversion to nudity, you should be glad they don't have a before and after for that (though they really should for purposes of truely showing changes in the female body during pregnancy). The one nude picture they put up is nothing compared to the "obscene" images that are truely needed to explain all the different changes a body goes through during pregnancy. Quit trying to censor the world because you find it gross to look at a nude woman. Perhaps you should work on yourself (not that you should enjoy it or not enjoy it that doesn't really matter, your problem is that you are so offended by it that you are trying to take away from people educational information.) And if you are worried about your kid running into the picture and thats why you want it censored, then what you should do is PARENT YOUR CHILD!!! Don't leave it to the rest of the world to protect your child from what you want to keep him/her away from! (and if your kid is looking for nude pictures, Wikipedia is probably the last place they will be looking) 198.133.139.5 12:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Listen, this isn't the issue at hand! This section is to debate about whether or not to remove this increibly RUDE image. Please don't pick on me, and don't attack my very helpful thoughts. I'm not trying to get the world to censor images from my kids. Please watch what you say as it could be offensive. I may need to take action to report you to Wikipedia for being uncivil. --bobsmith319 01:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not really a debate, it's a minority complaining about nude images, the rest of telling them not to make such edits, and you threating everyone that your going to report them. This latest user is merely an ip address, there's not a whole lot they can do.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I actually think I might have a source for that, belive it or not... when I get home I'll see if I can find it. More proof that sex ed is needed Kuronue 15:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, now that I have time, this is what was added:

"Many school girls believe that one can become pregnant in the act of touching a boy on the arm, or even talking to them. The term "Devil's Spawn" has been used for any girls who choose to undertake such disgusting activities."

Here's what I have from Reviving Ophelia by Mary Pipher, page 208-209, which might be a little outdated as it was copyright 1994:

"As we sat around the table for our first group, I was struck by how young these girls were, how unsophisticated and how uttelry ignorant they were about sex. They swore like longshoremen, but they knew little about their own bodies, contraception or pregnancy. One girl announced that "you can't get pregnant without oral sex cuz that's when the sperm goes into your belly." Another girl, who had been pregnant, said earnestly, "I really never had sex." Sex education had been the movies and telelvision. Sex education had been their lessons on the streets"

So it's not the same, but should there be a mention of misconceptions about pregnancy, or at least a mention of how one gets into this condition of pregnancy? Kuronue 19:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I would say that there's anything gained by including misconceptions. But maybe there should be some more elaboration about how one becomes pregnant. There is info there, but it may not be enough for those who know absolutely nothing about intercourse, fertilization, etc. -- Tim D 01:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing to hide you are right. I do not have anything against signing that way at all, and I will begin to sign corectly right now. bobsmith319.

In Pregnancy#Determining the beginning of pregnancy and predicting date of birth, there are some apparent contradictions, or at least places were different pieces of text don't mesh well together:

• "Fewer than 10% of births occur on the due date..." vs. "Approximately 3.6% of all women deliver on the due date predicted by LMP, and 4.7% give birth on the day predicted by ultrasound." This isn't technically a contradiction since 3.6% and 4.7% are both less than 10%, but these statements should be harmonized. It needs to be clear what the sources for these statements are, and which method of finding due date is assumed. If the passage that begins with the 10% figure is just less precise than the other passage, it should be removed.
• "An early ultrasound can determine the age of the pregnancy fairly accurately." seems to contradict the rest of the paragraph following it, which indicates that the age is never known that accurately and is usually dated from the last menstrual cycle. Is this because early ultrasounds are not typically done or is there some other explanation?
• The paragraph on Naegele's rule says "...or 37 weeks (259 days) from the date of fertilization", which conflicts both with the Merck manual paragraph and the article on Naegele's rule, both of which say 38 weeks (266 days) from fertilization.

--Srleffler 06:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FAQ about pregnacy

Pregnancy Diet: I attempted to include 20 lines on "pregnancy diet", including what is needed (folate, calcium, iron...) and what is harzardous (Listeria, Toxoplasma) and how to deal with it (Dec.6, 2006). I'm professor in human nutrition and food hygiene in Toulouse Vet school (France), and I tried to include true facts, and to write them in simple terms. Seems useful to pregnant women, no?

Text was removed few hours later by Tdowling because: "unencyclopedic". What does this mean? What do you think of that? Corpet 13:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Appologies - I don't think it means much except that that user does not like it. Let's put it back, in the absence of any specific compaint, and see if Tdowling can expand on his / her objection. Trollderella 22:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had a read of it and I think it is useful information but was written in too an informal tone. How about it be reinstated but perhaps written a little less informally? Maustrauser 22:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is exactly what I meant, and why I mentioned that it should be moved to the talk page. It's good information, but it was kind of written like a pamphlet, which doesn't really fit with how the tone should be. I believe that the addition was also lacking in references. Hopefully no offense was taken in the revert. -- Tim D 23:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure no offense was taken, but it is helpful to offer some constructive suggestions when removing material that is obviously contributed in good faith, and has some value - let's work on the version below. Thanks! Trollderella 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks to all contributors. I fully agree with the idea of writing it in a more "formal" way. Let me try, hoping you won't "kill" the poor Frenchie onces more! ;o) Corpet 17:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, I reverted "my" formal text back to "article" (and thus deleted it from below: is this Wik-unethical?). However, I did not add references: I am a scientist, and almost each word in "my" text might be supported by several refs. I guess it would be boring to the readers, No? If most people think references are a must, I will choose one or two selected refs for each statement. Corpet 18:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted Ferrymans series of edits of 20th/21st Jan 2007. They form original research interpretation:

• removing mention 9 months
• Trimesters are medically useful, and not just some idle rule of thumb for women to categorise their symptoms. Fetal development is largely completed in the 1st 12 weeks, not the first 6. Hence pregnant women are advised to take folic acid supplementation until 12th week of pregnancy, until spinal cord development is complete and risk of spina bifida has been reduced. 12th week of pregnancy = 10 weeks after fertilisation. The start of the second trimester at around 24 weeks roughly coincides with point of viability, so suggesting that all that happens after 6 weeks is some continuos uniform process is an original research point of view.
• The change of "In medicine, pregnancy is defined as beginning when the developing embryo becomes implanted into the endometrial lining" as instead "In medicine, pregnancy is defined as the period from conception to birth. However, it is not uncommon for doctors to say that pregnancy begins after conception, when the developing embryo becomes implanted into the endometrial lining" is incorrect, conception is not the same as the date of the Last Menstrual Period, nor is it the same as fertilisation. Conception, to me, means not some floating fertilised egg (that can occur in a lab with In Vitro Fertilisation), but rather "established pregnancy" - i.e. that implantation has occurred and that it has done so successfully, with hormonal levels having built up so that endometrial shedding of the next period has been averted - i.e. conception is when pregnancy is established with the date of the missed period = 2 weeks after fertilisation = 4 "weeks of pregnancy".
• Counting from start of previous period is not an alternative concept in medicine, it is the standard method of counting the weeks of pregnancy, but in no way alters medicine's view of when pregnancy starts (i.e. with implantation). Medicine does not consider a women to be pregnant during the time from 0 to 2 "weeks of pregnancy", i.e. pregnancy starts at a value of 2 weeks. Hence:
  • Last Menstrual Period = 0 "weeks of pregnancy"
  • Fertilisation = 2 "weeks of pregnancy"
  • Implantation = 2 weeks + few days of pregnancy = the women is now pregnant, but yet to prove that fully established
  • Missed period = 4 "weeks of pregnancy" = when a women (without aid of science/medicine) could state as having conceived and is in "established pregnancy"
  • Expected Date of Delivery = 40 "weeks of pregnancy"
  • Where a women's natural menstrual cycle is not the average or default value of 28 days, then ovulation and fertilisation is assumed to occur 14 days prior to the missed period (2 weeks of pregnancy point). The 0 weeks of pregnancy is then calculated from this and the Expected date of Delivery as 38 weeks beyond this. David Ruben ^Talk 04:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the edits I made. I’ll address our disagreements one by one, Dr. Ruben.

I. First, my user name is Ferrylodge.

II. Regarding the "9 months" that you say I removed, I did not touch the portion of the article that says, "human pregnancy is approximately 266 days from the date of fertilization. This is 38 weeks, or 9 lunar months." However, perhaps you would like to remove that sentence, since you dispute that pregnancy begins when a viable zygote is formed at fertilization. I would say that you are the one with unusual opinions here, not me. I did rewrite the following sentence "Human pregnancy lasts approximately 9 months between the time of the last menstrual cycle and childbirth (38 weeks from fertilisation)." As I said in the comments, this sentence was ambiguous as to whether it was referring to the START or the END of the last menstrual cycle. Therefore, I edited it to say: “Human pregnancy lasts approximately 38 weeks from conception to childbirth.” I did not insert any new information at all. I merely deleted an ambiguous phrase. Can’t you see that the former quoted sentence is ambiguous as to whether it is referring to the start or the end of the last menstrual cycle? If it is referring to the START of the last menstrual cycle, then the correct number would be 40 weeks = 10 months, right?

III. Regarding trimesters … Dr. Ruben, you say, “Trimesters are medically useful, and not just some idle rule of thumb for women to categorise their symptoms.” The sentence in question has now been reverted (by you, Dr. Ruben) so that it begins with this statement which I did not write: “In many societies' medical and legal definitions, human pregnancy is somewhat ARBITRARILY divided into three trimester periods, as a means to simplify reference to the different stages of fetal development” (my emphasis). So, it was not I who said that the trimester division is somewhat arbitrary. Dr. Ruben, is your argument with me, or is it with whoever wrote the sentence just quoted? Dr. Ruben, you say, “Fetal development is largely completed in the 1st 12 weeks, not the first 6” and “12th week of pregnancy = 10 weeks after fertilisation.” I never suggested that fetal development is completed in the first 6 weeks = 4 weeks after fertilisation. You accuse me of suggesting that “all that happens after 6 weeks [i.e. after 4 weeks from fertilisation] is some continuous uniform process.” I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. All I did was add to the above-quoted sentence (emphasis added): “In many societies' medical and legal definitions, human pregnancy is somewhat arbitrarily divided into three trimester periods, as a means to simplify reference to the different events and symptoms during the pregnancy. However, in terms of prenatal development, human pregnancy is instead broken up differently (i.e. into a pre-implantation period of two weeks from CONCEPTION, an embryonic period of six MORE weeks, and a fetal period until birth). Nevertheless, the trimester framework is useful in describing pregnancy from the pregnant woman's point of view”. If you will look at the Wikipedia article on Fetal Development (to which I linked), you will see in the Table of Contents that pregnancy is not divided into trimesters, but rather is divided into pre-implantation, embryonic, and fetal periods. I was merely trying to explain that this is how biologists treat fetal development, whereas the trimester framework is not the primary framework of developmental biology. Do you think it is the primary framework of developmental biology? Maybe the way I wrote it could be rephrased, but do you actually think the article on Fetal Development needs to be totally rewritten in terms of the trimester framework?

IV. I changed, “In medicine, pregnancy is defined as beginning when the developing embryo becomes implanted into the endometrial lining of a woman's uterus” to instead “In medicine, pregnancy is defined as the period from conception to birth. However, it is not uncommon for doctors to say that pregnancy begins after conception, when the developing embryo becomes implanted into the endometrial lining of a woman's uterus. Alternatively, obstetricians often date weeks of pregnancy from before conception, i.e. from the start of the last menstrual period which means that conception would typically occur at the end of the 2nd week of pregnancy.” You say that this is incorrect. You say, “conception is not … the same as fertilisation.” You say, “conception is when pregnancy is established with the date of the missed period = 2 weeks after fertilisation = 4 ‘weeks of pregnancy’.” Please note that the Wikipedia page on fertilisation begins by saying that fertilisation is also known as conception. How can it be original research on my part if I merely go by what the fertilisation page says? But since you apparently have a quarrel with whoever wrote the fertilisation page, I will take this opportunity to weigh in on their side. Many medical dictionaries say that conception means “formation of a viable zygote”. I agree with you that the viability of the zygote will not be knowable by doctors such as yourself until implantation occurs, but still the fact remains that the zygote is formed at fertilisation. Right?

V. You say, “Counting from start of previous period is not an alternative concept in medicine, it is the standard method of counting the weeks of pregnancy.” But don’t embryologists frequently count from fertlisation instead of from 2 weeks before? All I was trying to explain is that there are two alternative ways of counting. I’m not the one who wrote Fetal_development#Fetal_Development, and yet there are obviously two alternative ways of counting presented there.

VI. You say, “Medicine does not consider a woman to be pregnant during the time from 0 to 2 ‘weeks of pregnancy’, i.e. pregnancy starts at a value of 2 weeks.” Don’t you agree that this is an odd concept that needs to be explained? Don’t you agree that the present article is blatantly incorrect when it says, “Human pregnancy lasts … between the time of the last menstrual cycle and childbirth …”?

VII. Perhaps you will agree with me that pregnancy begins at conception. If you’ll research the matter, you’ll find that conception means “formation of a viable zygote” which can only occur at fertilisation, although the viability will not be known at least until implantation. That is what the long-standing fertilisation article says, and I agree with it.

VIII. After your reversions, the article now says, “Before pregnancy begins, a female oocyte (egg) must join, by spermatozoon in a process referred to in medicine as ‘fertilisation’, or commonly (though perhaps inaccurately) as ‘conception.’” The last parenthetical is vague, without even an explanation of why it is vague, or what the uncertainty is all about. Do you think that’s a good way to write an article?Ferrylodge 06:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would the poster please provide sources for the bit about broken bones in the neonate incurred during birth? I am a midwife and haven't heard of this except in very rare occurrences caused by the obstetrician or midwife. the In fact, areas of human neonates' bones are not completely calcified at birth, which has the benefit of greater flexibility and durability. I wonder if there's another phrasing for the "ripped internal and external flesh" bit, as well. There certainly are complications which can occur during birth, but these two are perhaps not the most important, nor quite accurately worded. Jazapp310 07:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a good link for home exercise programs for pregnant women:

• Swiss ball home exercise programs for pregnancy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.67.3.103 (talk) 15:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

In the article the "Estimated Date of Delivery" (EDD) is referenced, I'm on my second kid and have never heard it referred to as anything but "Estimated Date of Confinement" (EDC) by my wife and the various doctors and midwives. I actually came to this page hoping to shed some light on the origin of this term. Captain Rotundo 17:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I came upon a web site deals with questions, issues and solutions on sexual activity during pregnancy. I don't know this is considered appropriate, but every pregnant woman and her partner has the right to know. It's important to consult your physician/ob-gyn on the safety of sexual intercourse, and some couples may find the idea not comforting or unfit for them (like religious belief and cultural morality). In the majority of married couples involving a pregnant woman, sex is generally safe and not risky, but a pregnant woman may feel discomfort, or she might enjoy her love-making better than before. 63.3.14.1 22:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC) Questions on sexuality in pregnancy...this may contain mature content.[reply]

Sex isn't an inappropriate topic, particularly in regards to pregnancy, which occurs as a result of sex! Thanks for the idea! Do you have any sources such as newspaper articles that you would like to include in the article? Joie de Vivre 21:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute is here: diff 1, diff 2, diff 3, diff 4, diff 5, diff 6.

The phrase "female human" is adequate. "Human" can be used appropriately as a noun in this circumstance. In contrast. I don't think if I showed you a clot of blood with a 1-day old embryo in it and a clot of blood without one in it that you'd be able to tell me which clot contained the "human". The word "organism" is entirely appropriate when describing the medical terminology of pregnancy, it's not necessary for describing an adult human.

I'd like to point out that using the non-medical term "baby" when describing an embryo is against consensus; which is why we use the medical terms "embryo" and "fetus". The only reason we aren't using the terms "embryo" or "fetus" here is that we are describing the meanings of those words themselves. The fact that we cannot use medically accurate words to describe themselves does not create an opportunity to use medically dubious terms in what seems to be a pro-life POV-push. From Organism:

In biology and ecology, an organism (...) is a living complex adaptive system of organs that influence each other in such a way that they function in some way as a stable whole.

This sounds like a much more appropriate term for an embryo than the noun human.

I am not interested in a long argument with you, Ferrylodge. Joie de Vivre 23:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joie, first I would like to mention that (as I have recently learned myself), it is not okay to write a comment and then substantially edit it, which you have done here. According to Wikipedia guidelines, "Even if no one has replied, someone may still have read what you have written — so think before you speak! If you wish to amend your statement, use strike-through or a place holder to show it is a retrospective alteration."

You say that you are not interested in a long argument with me. I don't want a long argument with you either.

You stated "I'd like to point out that using emotionally charged terms like ‘baby’ when describing embryos is against consensus". That is a red herring. I did not suggest using the term “baby’, did I? If this is the kind of argument you want to make, then we will get nowhere.

Joie, you say that I am using “medically dubious terms in what seems to be a pro-life POV-push.” Since when is the word “human” a medically dubious term? Or do you insist on falsely accusing me of proposing the term “baby”?

Instead of providing multiple diffs, I would say that the dispute is only here. In other words, the only dispute is that Joie would like to edit the article as follows: “The medical term for a pregnant female human is genetalian, although this term is rarely used in common speech. The terms for the human organism within her are embryo, used during the initial weeks, and fetus, until birth.”

In the edit summary, I explained why the word "human" should not be crossed out: “I think it would be better to use a different term than ‘organism’ to denote the unborn fetus and embryo, especially if it is considered inappropriate to call the pregnant woman an 'organism’”.

The word “organism” is not commonly used by doctors (or by others) to describe a fetus that may be viable. The word “human”, however, is commonly used by doctors and by others to describe both a fetus as well as an embryo.

Prior to today, the article stated: “the medical term for the baby is 'embryo' (early weeks) and then 'fetus' (until birth)".

On 1 January 2007, the article said: “the medical term for the baby is embryo (early weeks) and then fetus (until birth).”

On 1 January 2006, the article said, “the medical term for the unborn human is an embryo (early weeks) and then "foetus" (until birth).”

On 1 July 2005, the article said, “the medical term for the unborn human is embryo and then fetus.”

So, until today, the article used terms like "baby" and "unborn human". I will revert to the longstanding term "unborn human" until we reach a consensus.Ferrylodge 00:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Politics aside, I'm opposed to the "organism within her" phrasing because it is terrible, terrible, terrible writing. It's clumsy, convoluted, and reads poorly. As a staunch supporter of reproductive rights I don't see anything wrong with the term "unborn human" (What's the alternative? Unborn dog?) I think that especially if you want to change the text to something that reads poorly, the onus is on you to get consensus first, Joie. Nandesuka 00:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Nandesuka. Gillyweed 09:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ferrylodge, what I said is not a red herring, because I never said that you used the word "baby". The article said "baby" before I initially edited it (diff), which is why I pointed out that that word was not appropriate. I do not want to spend any more of my time debunking extrapolation as to the intent of my words.

That said, "organism" is an appropriate term for use in a sentence that details medical terminology. The words "embryo" and "fetus" cannot be used to describe themselves. We must use another word. However, this is not an appropriate situation in which to insert emotionally laden terms POV terms such as "unborn (whatever)". This is especially inappropriate in a sentence detailing medical terminology. The word "unborn" certainly has to go, mostly because of its emotional charge, but particularly because embryos are frequently miscarried and would never have been born. The word "developing" can replace "unborn". But we're not going to agree on the term "human". I think it's entirely inappropriate, because this word is never used in medical terminology to describe an embryo. What is wrong with "organism"? Joie de Vivre 18:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joie, I restored the article to the longstanding version which used the term unborn "human", instead of your new term "organism". I also explained why. There is no consensus for your edit. Please stop reverting until there is a consensus. Thx.Ferrylodge 18:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong with "organism"? Joie de Vivre 18:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joie, I already explained, as have others. If you again insist on a word like "organism" (or if you instead insist on "creature" or "parasite" or "thing" or whatever) that is not commonly used to describe an unborn human, then there will be no consensus. Thx.Ferrylodge 18:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No doctor would use the word "organism" in this context, which makes your appeals to "medical terminology" all the more poignant and amusing. For the record, the Medline medical dictionary defines "fetus" as:

an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the 
basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing 
human from usually two months after conception to birth.[2]

The definition for embryo uses similar language ("developing human individual"). Therefore, to summarize, "what's wrong with "organism"" is that its use in this context is, as near as I can tell, a neologism invented by you. You certainly haven't cited any reliable sources that use that term to describe a fetus in the context of human pregnancy. Nandesuka 19:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're absolutely right, a doctor would not use the word "organism" if the grammatical circumstances allowed them to use the words "embryo" or "fetus". The only reason we can't use those words here is that we are describing those words. But this circumstance is not an opportunity for anyone to push POV language. The phrase "unborn baby" is emotionally weighty and thus inappropriate, especially for a sentence defining medical terms like "embryo" and "fetus". Until just recently, Ferrylodge was pushing for the similar phrase "unborn human". I'm glad that we can get past the inappropriate use of the word "unborn". But this still leaves the problem of what word to use to describe an embryo or fetus. Others have a problem with "organism". I have a problem with using the noun "human" to reference something barely visible to the naked eye.

I'm saying this mainly to illustrate that, as I am sure you are aware, whether an embryo should be considered fully human is a subject of intense political, philosophical and theological debate. The opening paragraphs of the Pregnancy article is not an appropriate forum in which to hash out such a debate, and it's certainly not a place to take sides without further comment on the complexity of the issue. Any subtle POV-pushing of any kind must not be tolerated. So, I think a better sentence for our NPOV encyclopedia article would be:

"The term embryo is used to describe the product of conception during the initial weeks, and the term fetus is used from about two months of development until birth."

In this way, we can tactfully avoid wording that will cause dispute, while still maintaining accuracy. I personally would like to agree on this compromise. I really don't want to argue at length, my goal is to uphold WP:NPOV. I think this sentence does that. What do you think? Joie de Vivre 16:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we cannot make up unique usages just to push our own political agendas. My point, above, is that a neutral, reliable source uses both the terms "unborn" and "developing human". At this point, I think the only acceptable change would be to another term that you can demonstrate has equal common use in reliable sources. If you can find a neutral reliable source that describes a fetus as a "product of conception" then I'm willing to agree to that change. So far, I haven't found any such source. Nandesuka 16:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even if there is a neutral reliable source that uses the term "product of conception" for a possibly viable fetus, the terminology "unborn human" is much more common to describe a fetus and embryo, and the latter term is also much more longstanding in this article (as described above). The only reason to reject the term "unborn human" is to advance an agenda according to which a fetus is not human. Therefore, I don't support introduction of the term "product of conception" in this context.Ferrylodge 17:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ferrylodge, that's a big red herring: you're using "human" as an adjective. As I've said, whether or not an embryo is a human being is a subject of intense debate. The opening paragraphs of the Pregnancy article is not an appropriate forum in which to hash out such a debate, and it's certainly not a place to take sides without further comment on the complexity of the issue. Referring to an embryo as "a... human" is fraught with unheard commentary, and including it is POV.

The words "embryo" or "fetus" (or "unborn child" or "preborn American") will almost always be used as opposed to "product of conception", depending on where you look, but I've included my sources below. Again, the fact that we must use a different word to define "embryo" and "fetus" does not create an opportunity to default to a certain POV. Referring to an embryo as "a developing human" is far more POV in nature than referring to an embryo as "the product of conception". Joie de Vivre 20:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google returns over 40,000 results for "product of conception". The government of New Zealand uses the phrase multiple times in its glossary provided by the Health Information Service: [3]. Pope John Paul used the phrase [4]. The Texas Administrative Code uses the phrase: [5]. The phrase "product of conception" to describe an embryo or fetus is factually accurate, it is neutral, and it is the phrase that should be used. Joie de Vivre 20:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where is there any debate in a reputable textbook or medical journal about whether or not an embryo is a human?Ferrylodge 20:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean to infer that you, who in the last few weeks has made numerous contributions to Beginning of pregnancy controversy, Fetus, Fetal pain, Template:Abortion, and Roe v. Wade, have never heard of the Stem cell controversy? Joie de Vivre 20:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Joie, no I have never before visited the Wikipedia article that you mentioned. However, I just visited it, and it says: "Many scientists believe that homo-sapien life only begins when brainwaves and heartbeats develop, which is during the 9th week of pregnancy, so embryos are not humans.^{[citation needed]}"

Notice the thingy at the end that I inserted. Also, please note that Wikipedia is not "a reputable textbook or medical journal". I agree with Nandesuka about this, and I wish we did not have to spend so much time going in circles here.Ferrylodge 20:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A source that states that embryos are not humans only supports my claim that the noun "human" should not be used. Joie de Vivre 20:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia may not be a source for Wikipedia. Please review WP:RS. Nandesuka 21:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(de-indenting). While I'm aware that issues of terminology are very important to POV warriors, this is the first I've heard that referring to a fetus as a "human fetus" is viewed as pushing a particular view (compare and contrast to describing a fetus as a "person," for example, which is hotly debated, and I agree that the term "baby" may carry some emotional weight). I understand that you are asserting that "human" in this context pushes a particular POV. However, I disagree that it does. I think you are, quite simply, boxing shadows here. I absolutely support the use of neutral language. However, I equally oppose the use of clumsy and convoluted language to replace language that, to me, already seems perfectly NPOV. Unless you're seriously arguing that the Medline dictionary is written by pro-life fanatics, which I would find hard to believe. Nandesuka 20:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, using the noun, "human", as in "a human" to describe an embryo is inherently problematic. Yes, whether or not a fetus is a person is debated, and so is whether or not "an embryo" is "a human". We must not take sides in this article. Joie de Vivre 20:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joie, If you are trying to argue with a straight face that calling an embryo a "developing human" is pushing a POV, I think you will continue have an uphill battle. It is commonly accepted medical usage. If you have any sources at all that support your singular contention that "developing human" is a politically charged term to describe a fetus, now would be a good time to share them. Nandesuka 20:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think this would be a better time for you to prove that the phrase "product of conception" is somehow inappropriate. I've already made my point crystal-clear. Stem cell controversy details the problems inherent in referring to an embryo as "a human", whether "developing", "unborn" (as this article said previously), or otherwise. Joie de Vivre 20:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've already provided my reliable source (the medline dictionary). You still haven't provided yours. (A wikipedia article is not a reliable source according to Wikipedia policies.) Nandesuka 21:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did the entirety of the Reference section escape you? Joie de Vivre 21:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, it sure did. Please share a reliable source that supports your contention that referring to an embryo as a "developing human" is a politically charged term. Nandesuka 21:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joie, which one of those references states that many scientists believe a "human embryo" is not a "human"? I doubt there are more than a dozen scientists in the whole world who believe that. Please understand that there is nothing contradictory between acknowledging that an organism is a "human" while at the same time supporting destruction of that human.Ferrylodge 21:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, one could easily accept that something is not a "human", but yet is a "developing human." Lastly, one can accept that something is "human" but not a "person." Regardless of these many options, the point is that we need to provide not our own personal opinions, but those of reliable sources. At the present time, Joie, you seem to be on a crusade to push your own opinion in to the article. Directly providing a reliable source (rather than vaguely waving your hand and saying "Go read those 50 articles over there that may or may not support what I'm saying") would be a simple way to disabuse me of that notion. Nandesuka

I want to include the web link to pregnancy etiquette in the external links. I found this on AOL search, since pregnancy etiquette has hundreds of web pages on the subject...and better yet I can make a new topic on pregnancy etiquette. To ask sexual matters or this sort of thing to a pregnant women is definitely rude! I call it a type of bad manners and some people's innocent but unwelcome actions/comments, and remarks may be forms of Pregnancy discrimination or harassment in many US states and countries. California state law has a highly-detailed thing against pregnancy harassment...but unable to find or link it, maybe we should contact the state government on what it clearly states. 63.3.14.1 12:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CBS news.com Pregnancy etiquette - What to say/not say to a pregnant woman.

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Can I mother naturally abort a child? By this, I mean she would never get an abortion, but with all her might she doesn't want to have a child, and thus her body poisons the fetus. (Through no conscious effort or ill-actions taken on the mother's part.) JimmmyThePiep 16:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that the fetus does not even begin to take a recognizable shape until sometime during the second trimester. This is incorrect. Additionally, there are no images at this page that show the recognizable shape of the fetus at the very beginning of the fetal stage. Instead, there are some blurry ultrasound images, as well as some illustrations wherein the fetus is too infinitesimally small to discern anything.

I suggest addition of the following image. This seems like a better article for this image than the fetus article, since the other images here are not particularly clinical. The following image has a life-size replica of a fetus at 8 weeks after fertilization (i.e. the beginning of the fetal stage). The replica itself is a useful image for this article, and the relative size to an adult hand is also useful.

There have been objections to this image because the adult hand is a "married white male", and I hope that such crude comments will not reappear.

Ferrylodge 04:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't misquote other editors. I objected to the image on March 5, 2007 for the following reasons (note the plurality):

"A picture of a plastic model of a fetus isn't helpful to the article, especially since it's not a particularly good model. Ceci n'est pas un foetus. The hand gives no sense of dimension, is distracting (especially given that my eye is drawn to the shiny, gold wedding band, not the model), and, frankly, the undertones of the composition are something which one might expect to find on a poster or on the cover of a pamphlet. In short, it isn't encyclopaedic."

Other users raised objections to the image on Talk:Fetus. The only comment which actually did make reference to a "married white male" was 03:55, 7 March 2007 by SheffieldSteel:

"When I look at that picture, I see the hand of a white, male, married adult. I do not see any 'help' in judging the size of the fetus model."

The objection is clearly to the fact that the hand does not help in determining size — not because the hand is that of a "married white male." But, regardless, an image of a model of a fetus cradled in somone's hand would still be POV no matter what the person's race or marital status. -Severa (!!!) 05:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Severa, your accusation that I "misquote other editors" is as mistaken as the rest of your comment. I would suggest that you try to be civil, and assume good faith, however difficult that may be for you.

In my comment above, I said: "There have been objections to this image because the adult hand is a 'married white male.'" I did not mention who said that, and frankly I did not recall. But now you point out that SheffieldSteel said that she saw the hand of a "white, male, married adult." To accuse me of misquoting other editors is therefore manifestly absurd.

As to your complaint that Ceci n'est pas un foetus, I agree that the image above is not a fetus. Likewise, there are no pregnant women in the pregnancy article - only images of pregnant women. So what?

You offer no explanation why you think the pictured model is not "a particularly good model." The purpose is to show that it has a recognizable human shape (which is a lot more than can be said for the other images of a first trimester fetus presently in this article) and to give an idea of size. Do you think that the multiple images of a first trimester fetus currently in the present pregnancy article are adequate even though you cannot make out a head or arms or legs?

I stand by my contention that it is crude to mention the race, gender, or marital status of the person holding the replica. And I would also suggest that the image illustrates the humanity of an 8-week fetus, which does tend to support one POV more than another POV. Facts are funny that way. They often tend to support one POV or another. Is that a good reason to suppress the facts?Ferrylodge 05:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, have you seen the cover of Time Magazine for February 27 of this year?[6] Do you think Time Magazine is POV pushing?Ferrylodge 06:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

here is the edit I made to the image per the last RfC concerning this image (the one where a number of the commenters said the image would be better with a more neutral size scale, like a ruler). That said, I object to the use of this image and the original, unedited version, to illustrate pregnancy. A crude plastic model is just that, a crude plastic model, and the hand does not serve any encyclopedic purpose that a neutral ruler doesn't serve better. On top of this, the original image is pro-life propaganda (the creator of the image is pro-life, and clearly illustrated by Ferrylodge's last paragraph (second to last due to the edit conflict), the image is "aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people.") This image is not neutral, nor encyclopedic, and it is basically off topic at this article. Side note, I also found no mistakes in Severa's last post.-Andrew c 06:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As for Time Magazine, yes the cover is POV. Those are actual models that a crisis pregnancy center uses for the sole purpose of trying to convince pregnant women not to have an abortion.-Andrew c 06:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict, undent) Ferrylodge, characterising the relevant objections of other editors as "crude" in your first post, and doing so again in your second post, isn't civil. You misquoted other editors because you presented what was actually said out of context, even if the misquoting was simply the result of an oversight. No one actually objected to the image on the basis of the race, gender, or marital status of the person behind the hand. ShieffieldSteel's comment was only that he saw a hand, a "white, male, married adult" hand, and that this hand did not help in in determining the size of the model. In short, ShieffieldSteel did not object to it being the hand of a "white, male, married adult," but because the hand did not aid the viewer in determining the size of the model. In the future, I'd suggest checking over past debates, if you intend to make reference to them in another line of discussion.

There isn't really a comparison between the images in this article and the image of the fetus model. The images in this article depict actual pregnant woman, aside from the diagrams, whereas the fetus picture is a picture of a model. A picture of a model is not helpful, especially if the majority of the image is actually the hand holding the model, and if the model would be harder to resolve from the hand at smaller resolutions due to the similarity in tone. -Severa (!!!) 06:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew c, I take it that you are endorsing Severa's accusation that I have misquoted other editors. And to top it off, you call me a propagandist. Thanks so much for your civility and your assumption of good faith.

Yes, the person who made the image is pro-life. That does not make the image propaganda by any stretch of the imagination. There are no fallacies in the image, nothing misleading, no glittering generalities, no intentional vagueness, no slogans, no stereotyping.

Moreover, I do not know what or who you are quoting when you write that the image is "aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people." If I said that, I do not recall where. Would you kindly explain what or who you are quoting, please?

The present article says that the fetus does not even begin to take a recognizable shape until sometime during the second trimester. This is incorrect. The image I've suggested shows the opposite. This article presently includes some blurry ultrasound images, as well as some illustrations wherein the 8-week fetus is too infinitesimally small to discern anything. How you can think that these highly misleading statements and useless images are superior to the image of the fetus in hand is completely beyond my understanding, and for you to suggest that correcting false and misleading information is "off topic" really strains credibility.

If a Crisis Pregnancy Center informs a woman of facts in order to dissuade her from getting an abortion, that does not make the facts POV, and it certainly does not mean that Time Magazine was taking a POV when it published its 27 February cover.[7]

Severa, if an editor had objected to an image with the observation that it includes a "black lesbian" then that would be crude, and I would make no apologies for saying so. There is nothing any less crude about objecting to an image while observing that it includes a "white, male, married adult" and I make no apologies for criticizing the use of race, gender, and sexual preference in this way. Such things should be irrelevant to this discussion, and it's regrettable that you have chosen to conduct an extended discussion about them. As I said in my initial comment, "I hope that such crude comments will not reappear." If you continue to divert this discussion into matters of sex, race, and sexual preference, then that is your prerogative but I strongly object.

Blurry ultrasound images, with illustrations wherein the 8-week fetus is too infinitesimally small to discern anything, are most unhelpful. Together with the false statements in the present article, they are extremely misleading. All of this misinformation would be quickly and easily corrected by insertion of the truthful and accurate image that I've pasted above.Ferrylodge 07:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I don't want to get diverted into an argument about gender, race, and sexual preference. Therefore, I've delete my responses on those topics.Ferrylodge 08:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]