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   Microsoft irrevocably promises not to assert any Microsoft Necessary Claims against you for making, using, selling, offering for sale, importing or distributing any implementation to the extent it conforms to a Covered Specification

Has this text "subject to certain restrictions." on its own line not indented. Is that text part of the quote or not? or is it intending to mean that the quote is "subject to certain restrictions"? 71.178.10.40 (talk) 22:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The latter. That the quote is "subject to certain restrictions." WalterGR (talk | contributions) 23:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be some confusion, both in the Article and in the discussion, between two slightly different ideas:

• Supporting a specification in the sense of approving of it.
• Supporting a format in the sense of reading or writing a subset of it.

To illustrate, suppose a programmer writes programs in C, and the statements he uses happen to be a subset of the language defined by the C99 standard. Is the programmer supporting the standard or the language? In most cases, only the language. It's quite possible for the programmer to have learned to write C programs from a textbook without even knowing that any standard even exists.

Taking this example a little further, note that books that describe the C standard, and books that teach how to write C code, are almost always entirely different books.

When a document-handling program reads or writes a document in a format that appears to be a subset of the language defined by the OOXML would-be standard, does that document-handling program support the OOXML format, or the OOXML standard? In most cases, only the format, with with only a limited meaning of "supports". The author of the program may choose to read or write the format while still being opposed to the standard itself.

The Article begins by saying, "Office Open XML...is an XML-based file format specification." Then it confuses the issue later on by including a section "Application support" in which a large number of applications are listed that are said to "support" OOXML in various ways. The casual reader will have difficulty distinguishing between who supports the specification and who happens to read or write a subset of the document format.

I think this distinction ought to be made more clear, both in the Article and in this discussion. A person may support a subset of the format and still oppose the specification. Or a person may support the specification, while not using, or supporting use of, the format itself.

Rahul (talk) 07:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good point. However, I think it's clear from context what's meant by phrases like

• "Microsoft supports OOXML."
• "Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac supports OOXML."
• "Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure does not support OOXML."

Are there specific instances in the text that are ambiguous? WalterGR (talk | contributions) 11:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Kilz has stated that he is taking a break from Wikipedia. Therefore, I have archived past discussion content into archive page #5.

If I have archived any discussion that you feel still needs to be resolved, please re-state the discussion here.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 10:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thats sad, as soon as you think Im not here, you hide it all so no one sees the issues. I recommend anyone new read the archives. Kilz (talk) 21:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A comment via Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts: I think the discussion has descended into jargon-riddled wrangling where it's impossible to discern the issues (if there ever were any). It would help a lot if both User:HAl and User:Kilz took a break. Remember that you're creating an encyclopedia for the general reader who doesn't care about disputes between XML wank #1 vs XML wank #2. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 02:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, anyone new should absolutely read the archives. That should be standard practice before editing any article.

Kilz was the only user arguing his points. And given that Kilz said he was taking a break, I thought it made sense to move his arguments to the archive page.

Now, here's the real question: did I move all of the content from here to Archive 5 verbatim, or did I subtly manipulate it to make particular users look good and other users look bad and to push my POV?? WalterGR (talk | contributions) 03:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to move some of the OSP licensing discussion to the appropriate Microsoft Open Specification Promise article. Specifically the SFLC statement and the expert views opinions. The issue is brought up in the office open xml standardization proces but is in fact relavant to the OSP licensing and other patent covenant/promise types of licensing and is better suited in the OSP article. hAl (talk) 13:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I may be taking a break, but I'm not insane. You know full well that the sflc statement was aboiut ooxml. http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/2008/mar/12/osp-gpl/ Leave it on the page hal. Kilz (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As except for the sockpuppeteer there seem to be no objections I have already added the info to the OSP article so it can be looked at before removing it from this article. hAl (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You Ad hominem argument does not matter. There is no consensus WP:CON, I refer you to WP:PRACTICAL specificly, to move the material, or remove it from this article. There is nothing that says it cant be on both. You have chosen to use your biased original research form on the Open Specification Promise page. Do not remove a referenced section from this page that clearly is about ooxml. Kilz (talk) 18:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, hAl, register my objection to your moving pertinent information - I am a separate editor objecting - jonathan888

It was said (see archive 5) that DrawingML makes up for a considerable part of the lenght 6000 page specification.

It would be good to tell people if it is a Microsoft made up thing or if it relies on existing standards.

Is it used outside Microsoft at all?

What are it's advantages? -- HJH —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.229.69.195 (talk) 17:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not to good in the exact graphics stuff but I found this for you:

Technical analysis between DrawingML and SVG.zip.

Open XML Explained e-book (With a chapter on drawingML) I hope it gives you some info. hAl (talk) 21:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, thank you for the links. But what about the other questions? For how much of the specfication does DrawingML account for? What reason does Microsoft put forward to come up with their own non SVG drawing language? (Of course there is the now well known fact that their business model relies on vendor-lock-in through file formats and seemingly this goes on in an "open" specification.) If you could provide more insight on this that would be fine. --HJH —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.210.25.29 (talk) 11:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You should ask those questions to Microsoft rather than here. However I would guess that seeing as the the technical analyis link above shows quite big differences between SVG and DrawingML probalby SVG is just not enough to cover the features that are already present in Office. Also I am not sure if you could mix SVG objects and other office xml tags (for instance revision tags). And it might also be that SVG is ok more as a presentation format than an editable format as on webpages graphics object are only viewed where in Office people are very likely to edit graphical objects. hAl (talk) 21:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The the information regarding voting irregularities surrounding OOXML's quest for ISO standardization has been moved to a separate article about OOXML standardization. However, this is one of the most intriguing aspects of OOXML, and the issue the format is most famous for. Although the other article can contain extensive detail about the allegations of irregularities and scandal, there still needs to be mention of it in this article, both 1 line in the intro, and 1 paragraph in the standardization section. Regards, Lester 19:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No actually is not essential for the format itself. It is something fully tied to the standardization proces but not the the format itself and is descriptive of behaviour around the format and opinionated 'news' surrounding the parties involved in the standardization but it is not very relevant to the format itself. The so called irregularities stories look like they are 90% opponents stories who did not get their preferred voting result in their country. hAl (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We shouldn't let Standardization of Office Open XML be a POV fork of this article, though. There might be room in this article to talk about the two months allowed for appeals from NBs & there is probably room for criticisms specifically raised about the format (rather than the process) that are currently in the other article. --Karnesky (talk) 21:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are still massive allegations of vote rigging against Microsoft (short summary here). There is an ongoing antitrust EU investigation. Given the amount of well-founded criticism against Microsoft's practices and ISO's collusion, as well as criticism of OOXML itself (that it may not be implementable by anyone except Microsoft), I find it very biased to omit these completely from the main article.--87.162.60.222 (talk) 20:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The key word in your comment is "allegations". Allegations are, by their nature, POV. Unless proven, they are not fact, and only facts belong in an encyclopedia with the possible exception of specific cases where the allegations themselves are notable, in which case said allegations would have their own article if they meet notability guidelines. An example of a notable allegation IMO would be conspiracy theories in the assasination of JFK or Allegations of vote tampering in the 2000 US election. In both cases, they are notable as entities in their own right, and long after the close of investigations into the events, so they are unlikely to be proven without new evidence. 12.214.250.176 (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think there should be a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardization_of_Office_Open_XML in both the opening summery and the Background sub heading. Laughton.andrew (talk) 12:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ISO29500 until now is in 40.98 estatus, the status necessary for be international standar is 60.60. Until then, show that ISO29500 is international standar is false and it is not enciclopedic. See ISO status table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.53.217.165 (talk) 09:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

However ISO/IEC 29500 is already the official designation used for the format specification by ISO since april. Before that date, ISO used the name DIS 29500 indicating a draft status. After being approved the format no longer is no longer in a draft status. So allthough it does not state the exact status of the standardization proces, naming the format ISO/IEC 29500 in the article is ISO conforming name use. hAl (talk) 12:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OOXML is now an ISO standard, and the article should reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.153.60 (talk) 19:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to this article, OOXML is still not an official ISO standard, that is only the unofficial vote. Also with Norway's vote investigation, calling it a standard is a little premature. Article- http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9074058&intsrc=news_ts_head168.28.180.30 (talk) 21:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)Anonymous[reply]

Request for an investigation you probably mean. hAl (talk) 21:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ISO has not yet published final version of the standard, until then we do not know WHAT the standard is supposed to be. Hence - the OOXML is not an ISO standard yet. Further - there ARE restrictions on the implementation of the standard, so it is not really free, and MS specifically says, that you need to consult a lawyer if you want to risk implementing it under GPL - instead of declaring they will not pursue any GPL implementers. 83.5.141.245 (talk) 12:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are many definitions of "Open standard", as that article shows.

Your edit summary saying, "you will need some GPLed or at least BSD implementation WHEN the standard is published to call it free and open" may be true for some definition, but not for all of them. If you'd like to use that as an argument, you'll need to provide a reference for a definition of "open standard" that makes that claim, and say that OOXML isn't an open standard under that particular definition.

MS says you need to consult a lawyer because they obviously can't give legal advice. The content of this article shouldn't be comprised of speculation about what it means that Microsoft said "consult a lawyer" vs. "declaring they will not pursue any GPL implementers." WalterGR (talk | contributions) 13:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm affraid that the burden of the proof of being open and free is on the proponents of such claim, so as long, as there are multiple definitions of 'open' and 'free', it's their task to specify, which of the definitions they chose, to make the format fit the description. Your argument about speculation works against you, because it's pure speculation to call OOXML 'open' and 'free' under current circumstances. Conversely I do not speculate, what MS could mean or not. It's just not a matter of legal advice, but of intention and effort. As the authors of the draft, MS had every opportunity to make it as unencumbered as needed by GPL community. This community is a major player on the software market nowadays. Excluding even much smaller players would make the draft unacceptable as open or free standard. The MS chose not to make that effort and did not show intention of making the draft available for implementation by the community. All this in the context of contacting some state's heads to ensure the draft is accepted as an international standard, which in my opinion required much more effort. 83.5.141.245 (talk) 15:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've added a reference stating that OOXML is an open standard. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 15:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there are no restrictions on implementing the standard (talk. The copyrights are fully free and any MS patents on the technology are released for any implementations of the standard. So unless you or anyone could suggest something in the standard you cannot implement because of restrictions ? hAl (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I cannot talk about the standard, because it's not there yet, but portions of the draft are encumbered, if only by their reliance on previous work by MS, which incidentally is not released as far as copyright and patents are considered. What is more the ability to implement is restricted by conformance to the specs, which is to be decided arbitrarily by MS. 83.5.141.245 (talk) 15:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually you can talk about the standard because Ecma-376 is already an open standard (as are ALL Ecma standards). As for conformance: Conformance to the spec is actually listed in the specification and thus not arbitrarily decided by Microsoft as you wrongly suggest. And as for reliance on previous Microsoft work there is not a problem as the OSP licensing does not exclude old patents. OSP licensing covers all patent claim you require to implement the format specifcation. So if you require old technology that MS has IP rights on the OSP applies to that as well. This will not change for the new version of the standard when it arrives. So you are not making any valid point so far on any suggested restriction on implementing the Office Open XML standard. So again I suggest you come up with something concrete in the standard you cannot implement because of supposed restriction and I'll show you quickly that it is not restricted in any way. OSP licensing has restrictions but those do not apply to covered formats like OOXML. hAl (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article seems to confuse the 2006 Ecma version of OOXML and the 2008 revised ISO version. For instance, all the applications listed in the implementation section only supports the former, not the ISO standard one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.209.194.26 (talk) 12:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any objections from anyone if I clarify this on the article page? Laughton.andrew (talk) 11:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not from me! Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 18:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about this article and an other article here: Talk:Microsoft_Office#Discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Helpsloose (talk • contribs) 22:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, that discussion seems to have ended. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 21:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be a lot of drive-by edits removing from the lead the referenced claim that OOXML is an open standard. If you disagree with this claim, feel that it's not neutral, or feel it's pushing a POV, that's not the appropriate way to handle it.

Referenced material shouldn't be removed unless it fails WP:VER. If you feel it doesn't pass WP:VER - for example, if you feel Ecma International isn't a reputable reference - then you need to justify that, rather than simply removing the reference.

Furthermore, if you feel the article is unbalanced in a particular way, the appropriate way to address this is to add information documenting other points of view, not simply removing information that you disagree with.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 21:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All Ecma standards are open standards. hAl (talk) 21:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm just trying to explain to people the proper way to handle this, rather than doing drive-by edits to remove sourced information. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 21:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Hal that the opening doesn't need a citation. The ECMA white paper is a very poor thing to cite, as it opens with "Office Open XML (OpenXML) is a proposed open standard for...." It is not an appropriate reference for the points that are trying to be cited. --Karnesky (talk) 22:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your argument. Is it that the paper is so old (written when OOXML was a proposed standard) that it can't make claims about the openness of the standard?

Regarding sourcing it in the lead at all: unsourced information can be removed. If it's not sourced in the lead, people are going to remove it even more often than they already have been when it was sourced. I've already got people accusing me of edit warring by restoring the text when people remove it. If you guys are offering to help me out by restoring the text when it gets removed, then by all means, don't cite it. Otherwise, I think it's a useful measure.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 22:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait. Karnesky, your edit summary for the removal of the source says, "white paper describes it as a proposed open standard & does not give the ISO designation". Are you actually arguing that it's not an open standard? WalterGR (talk | contributions) 22:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not an open standard. A standard which says "Do it like Word95 does" (which OOXML does, or at least it did initially) is not open. Raul654 (talk) 22:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Raul654, being an admin you know how this process works. If you want to argue a particular point of view, then do it in the article, by adding content backed up by reliable sources. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 22:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Raul654 after the ISO standardization process the Office Open XML specification described your point very fully: 2.15.3.6 autoSpaceLikeWord95 (Incorrectly Adjust Text Spacing for Specific Unicode Ranges) This element specifies adjustments (detailed below) which should be applied to the spacing between adjoining regions of non-ideographic and ideographic text when the autoSpaceDE (§2.3.1.2) and autoSpaceDN (§2.3.13) elements have a value of true (or equivalent). This algorithm typically results in the following: An increase in the inter-character spacing added between non-ideographic and/or number characters and certain full-width characters No inter-character spacing between non-ideographic and/or number characters and certain half-width characters Typically, applications apply additional spacing between ideographic and non-ideographic characters/numeric characters when the autoSpaceDE / autoSpaceDN properties are applied. This element, when present with a val attribute value of true (or equivalent), specifies that applications shall apply the following adjustments to this logic: Characters in the following Unicode ranges should be treated as ideographic, even though those characters are full-width forms of non-ideographic text: U+FF10­U+FF19, U+FF21­U+FF3A, and U+FF41­U+FF5A. [Note: This results in the unnecessary addition of space. end note] Characters in the following Unicode ranges should be treated as non-ideographic, even though those characters are ideographic: U+FF66­U+FF9F. [Note: This results in the omission of the intended additional space. end note] [Example: Consider a WordprocessingML document with two paragraphs containing a mix of East Asian and Latin characters: <w:p> <w:r> <w:t>ab</w:t> </w:r> <w:r> <w:t></w:t> </w:r> <w:r> <w:t></w:t> </w:r> <w:r> <w:t>cd</w:t> </w:r> </w:p> <w:p> <w:r> <w:t>ab</w:t> </w:r> <w:r> <w:t></w:t> </w:r> <w:r> <w:t></w:t> </w:r> <w:r> <w:t>cd</w:t> </w:r> </w:p> The first paragraph contains characters with Unicode value U+FF66 (). The second paragraph contains characters with Unicode value U+FF12 (). If autoSpaceDE is true , spacing is added in the first paragraph (between the ideographs and the non-ideographic characters), but not in the second (all four characters are not ideographs): If this compatibility setting is turned on: <w:compat> <w:autoSpaceLikeWord95 /> </w:compat> Then, although it appears incorrect, applications should not add space in the first paragraph and should apply it in the second: end example]. In addition each of those compatiblity items is described in detail now in the format specification annex and because they are fully described in the spec they will also covered by the Ecma and ISO copyrights and by the Micrsoft OSP patent licensing. I hope this long explanation of just one of the item shows that any relevant info is present in the article. hAl (talk) 07:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you guys are offering to help me out by restoring the text when it gets removed, then by all means, don't cite it. Surely my eyes decieve me: you're can't be conspiring with other editors to edit war on a Wikipeida talk page? Most people engage in that sort of behavior by email, not out in the open. ➪HiDrNick! 22:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read this entire section - I think I'm pretty clear on my intentions. If you want to accuse me of impropriety, do it on the appropriate noticeboard. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 22:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read my comments. I never claimed it wasn't an open standard. My claim is that the white paper does not say any of the things you'd expect it to say, given the location you had chosen to place the citation (e.g. it neither claims that the standard is "presently" open nor does it give the ISO number referred to earlier in the same sentence). If you feel that sentence need a citation, by all means add one. Just add one that actually supports the statement explicitly, rather than this historical document. --Karnesky (talk) 22:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. I was just confused by the "ISO designation" text, thinking you meant some kind of designation of openness. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Still, I think the reference is valid. I don't understand how "proposed open standard" turns into "questionably open accepted standard." Rather, it was once a proposed open standard, and now is an accepted open standard. Furthermore, Ecma's download page speaks about the accepted standard and links to that whitepaper as an overview. That seems like pretty strong confirmation that the information is still valid. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 23:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I don't think it warrants a reference. But a better reference would be something that contained the ISO standard number in it, as that would cite all information from the sentence to that point. Alternatively, reword that hook to make it clear that whatever ECMA documents you cite only apply to the statement of it being an open standard & choose documents that are firmer on that point. --Karnesky (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would not serve a point to use the ISO designation for opennnes. Actually Ecma standards are as open or more open than ISO standards already. hAl (talk) 07:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At the risk of drawing other articles into the edit war - check out Open standard and Open format. It should be readily apparent from these articles that 1) there is no common consensus on what a standard has to be in order to be an "open standard", and 2) that ISO designation is regarded by many as neither necessary nor sufficient. --Alvestrand (talk) 10:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, it should be clear from the fact that the specification allows the implementation to embed arbitrary binary data (for example, a .doc, which is not an open standard by any definition), the standard itself is not open. Only some parts of it are. Yesudeep (talk) 03:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Standards don't need to specify the format for every item that can be embedded inside it. For example, you can attach files of any kind to an internet e-mail. Would you argue that internet e-mail is or is not an open standard?

Simple Mail Transport Protocol (SMTP) is described by RFCs 821, 1123, and 2821. But you can attach arbitrary files to e-mails. Therefore, are only "some parts" of SMTP open?

If you want to argue that OOXML doesn't qualify as an open standard, please provide verifiable, reputable 3rd party references to back up your specific claims. Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 03:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just because it can contain embedded proprietary markup doesn't make it "closed". The spec doesn't require you to process the internal structure of the binary blob. It only requires the blob to be made available to implementations that want to process it. What is required to be done with the blob is clearly specified, anything else is a part of extensibility. You can use that feature to embed an entire .doc file but that would be an abuse of the spec, not an intended use. This is no different from ODF extensibility that also allows custom data to be inserted. Or XHTML, that can use namespaces to embed any other markup (including proprietary ones). Or even XML. Embed anything anywhere. If binary isn't allowed, use a different encoding, but the essence remains the same. None of those are only "partially" open standards. --soum ^talk

Why are the infoboxes promoting OOXML as MS Office 2007 formats? Office 2007 is just one implementation, like several others. On what basis was the Office 2007 impl chosen for infobox visibility? --soum ^talk 17:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the given reference for the MIME type ([1]). Ghettoblaster (talk) 17:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the answer to my questions in the reference? That Microsoft Office Word 2007 document has .docx extension and application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document was never questioned. The only point of disagreement is that application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document refers to any WordProcessingML implementation, not just Microsoft Word 2007 .docx format. So why was Microsoft Word 2007 was singled out? I propose replacing "Microsoft Office Word 2007 Document" with WordProcessingML Document, "Microsoft Office PowerPoint 2007 Presentation" with PresentationML Document, and "Microsoft Office Excel 2007 Workbook" with SpreadSheetML Document. I am not sure of the icons, though, but have a hunch that they are not the generic identity across all implementations. Can anyone confirm? --soum ^talk 18:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a look at the article history, you'll see that it wasn't me who added these names. I just tried to point out where they possibly came from. If you got any other information regarding the official names or if you have official generic OOXML icons, please feel free to change the infobox. Ghettoblaster (talk) 19:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn;t accusing you of any POV-pushing or anything. It looked odd to me, I started this discussion to gather feedback. --soum ^talk 19:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The background section of the article actually calls the format "Ecma Office Open XML". So I'd suggest the following names:

• Ecma Office Open XML Document
• Ecma Office Open XML Presentation
• Ecma Office Open XML Workbook

Or maybe without the "Ecma" prefix. ISO calls the format simply "Office Open XML" ([2]). Ghettoblaster (talk) 20:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the introduction, it makes no mention of the contentious way in which OOXML was pushed through and makes it all look like it went through like a dream. Neither does it mention ODF or that there is already an existing clutch of fully implemented closed and open source implementations of ODF. I think this needs to be mentioned.

82.24.42.7 (talk) 11:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)11/4/2008 cybervegan[reply]

I agree with this. A standard with not even a single complete implementation and only one vendor does not make sense. The term "standard" seems abused, simply because the specification is not vendor-neutral. Standardization ideally occurs when there are several competing implementations varying to different degrees and interoperability becomes a major headache. I would prefer to call this a pseudo-open vendor-specification instead.

It doesn't just read like Microsoft propaganda. It is Microsoft propaganda and all the MS fanbois around here are making sure it remains that way. I'm sorry but I feel humiliated already. I'm out of wikipedia.

Yesudeep (talk) 09:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you characterise Office Open XML as not having a complete implementation ? MS Office 2007 is a much more complete implementation of Office Open XML than any existing implementation of ODF. hAl (talk) 10:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please, save it. [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.184.23.28 (talk) 07:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely agree. The only thing this format is known for so far is the massive corruption during its ISO approval. This absolutely has to be a significant part of the introduction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.216.1.119 (talk) 14:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see that a claim of the size of the OOXML specification has been removed from the article.

It has been claimed to be 6000 pages. I have seen a picture claiming to be of the specification, stacked on a chair, where the pile of paper was higher than the back of the chair. According to [4], the normalized thickness of a piece of paper is 0.1 mm - 6000 pages should then be 60 cm, if printed double-sided, it should be 30 cm. Can someone who's actually held a printout of the complete OOXML spec in their hands confirm whether the copy they saw was around that size, for the print format they were looking at?

That's a hunkin' big pile of paper. But we should quote it in verifiable centimetres, not in offbeat comparisiions to the size of persons. --Alvestrand (talk) 22:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The size should be given in number of pages. That's how the length of every other printed documents is described. Using a physical measurement would be a subtle attempt at pushing the point of view that the specification is too long. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 23:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not very many people are used to dealing with piles of 6000 pages. I could equally well say that it's an useful form of illustration, and that not including it is an attempt to push the POV that it's reasonable to have such a long specification be a fast-track ISO standard. --Alvestrand (talk) 06:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the idea of illustration, but I think it would be belaboring the point: the length of the ODF specification is already given. Furthermore, to maintain a neutral POV, the "size in centimetres" for both specs should be given. However, this would be completely unnecessary, as one can do the exact same size comparison based on the number of pages, which is already provided. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 07:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly suggest people at least stop using that repeated use of fake picture with a stack of paper suggesting it is the printed spec. It is petty and childish. Leave that kind of behaviour to anti ooxml activists but out of wikipedia. It is a long specification. Some might be critical of that (allthough some have stated that more documentation is actually better) and as such it is fine in the article. Ridiculous suggestions on measurements have no place here. Even the more objective page size number comparison could be debated as for instance OOXML was printed in 1,5 times the linespacing that for instance ODF was printed with. hAl (talk) 08:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's the reason for claiming that the picture is fake? (Note - I haven't seen the picture in question - I've seen one, but it may not be the same one) --Alvestrand (talk) 08:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has been published on the internet that it was. Actually there is a real pic as well.[5] hAl (talk) 11:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think anybody who prints out a 6,000+ page specification should themselves be criticised for wasting a lot of paper, Nobody.... NOBODY is ever going to make use of that.

It doesn't matter how big a specification is... the quality and usefulness of the information is what's important to a developer. The OOXML spec has piles of examples, lots of big tables, and all sorts of things not narrowly related to the definition of the spec, that make the "page count" grow. Ask any developer who is tasked with creating an implementation, and they'd tell you that they would prefer all that extra information. -/- Warren 17:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Still people want to add it to the critisism because they think less information is better I guess. hAl (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be of interest that ODF spec is small partly because it does not include any specs on what it claims to be incorporated W3C standards. However if for instance ODF were to incorporate the W3C schemas even if only for for validation reasons then even OpenOffice files would not validate against these schemas. So leaving out the w3cinfo from ODF is also consistant with OpenOffice not corretly supporting the w3c standards that are now only referenced in ODF. So what is not in the spec apperantly does not have to validate in OpenOffice ODF terms. hAl (talk) 13:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand this statement. Are you claiming that an XML validator won't validate an ODF document if given the schemas that ODF claims to reference, or are you claiming something different? --Alvestrand (talk) 13:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No actually an OOo document will validate against ODF schemas because reused schemas like w3c mathml schema are not included in the spec but replaced by veryfing anything[6] even if non consistent with the format. hAl (talk) 15:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know this is common criticism. It has been added, removed, and edited in various ways over the history of this article. I recently removed some content in this edit that had previously been added, removed, and added again, because

• it compared only ISO/IEC standardization time with ISO/IEC and OASIS standardization time, thereby purporting to demonstrate that ODF was examined more closely.

Furthermore, likely due to the controversial nature of OOXML standardization, technical measures were employed to examine the standard that were not employed during ODF standardization. For example, [7] and [8]. A simple "time it took to standardize" comparison therefore isn't appropriate to argue this criticism, and amounts to original research.

Unless some kind of measurement can be derived for "total person hours of analysis" for each document (which is obviously impossible) then a simple "time it took to standardize" comparison isn't appropriate argue this criticism, and amounts to original research.

What isn't original research, however, is specific claims from verifiable sources saying that the format was standardized too quickly or was not given enough analysis.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 11:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph previously stated that: Office Open XML was approved by ISO/IEC in 15.5 months compared to OpenDocument being ISO approved in 6,5 month.. It transformed a criticism about OOXML in an unsourced statement about ODF, which was reverting the meaning of the sentence before. I changed it to The Office Open XML was approved by ISO/IEC in 15.5 month compared to OpenDocument being approved in 3.5 years, comprising 3 years spent before ISO standardization to be approved as an OASIS standard, and 6 months for approval by the ISO members with sourced refs because I thought it was non neutral as it was. This was then reverted to the original sentence. I think it is better to remove all the comparison about OOXML vs ODF in this sentence, which was still unsourced.

It must also be noted that, as stated by the OpenDocument standardization article, OASIS is one of the organizations which has been granted the right to propose standards directly to an ISO SC for "Fast-Track Processing".

Hervegirod (talk) 11:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you're right. I should have been more thorough. Thanks for this edit.

Ecma International (which submitted OOXML to ISO) has also been granted the right to make fast-track submissions. So a possibly more accurate comparison would have been OASIS+ISO (ODF) with Ecma+ISO (OOXML). But even that comparison - to argue a point regarding the thoroughness of the standardization process - would likely be flawed, due to the factors I described above.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 12:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be relevant that when you add an article that has a lot of factual incorrectness (like the Google reference) that people are aware of what that are uses as it basis for its claims. The Google reference make an incorrect comparison of ISO scrutinazition times, it incorrectly states that ODF uses an ISO markup language for formulas whilst ODF does not reference any formula markup language and the refrenece incorrectly states that ODF patent licensing applies to future versions allthough for instance IBM's patent licensing on ODF only applies to existing versions of ODF v1.0 and v1.1 and Sun patent license vaguely only applies to versions they contributed to to the point of incorring an obligation. Three major screwups in such a short document. It is a terrible opinion document and pathetic that Google even has the nerve to put out such misinformed garbage. hAl (talk) 12:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The complaint I've heard is that it the OOXML spec was inappropriate for the ISO fast track. The fast track was intended for specs that needed few or no changes between being proposed and being approved; I think it's documented pretty thoroughly that many changes have been accepted from the version of OOXML that ECMA proposed and the one that will be produced by the post-BRM editing. The time schedule for ISO processing was pretty constrained once fast track was chosen. FWIW, the processing time for non-fast-track ISO standards is usually measured in years, not months. --Alvestrand (talk) 13:40, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fasttrack standardization proces was actually intended for formats originating not from a standards organization but for format/technology emerging from the industry/marketplace. As these format/technologies are being used in the real world already during the standardization proces it is not of much use to use a prolonged standardization proces which would stay behind the fact and thus the fastracking proces. hAl (talk) 14:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if this article could use a link to OpenDocument, seeing how it is the only other ISO standard in this area? Particularly so since there are a number of links in the article referencing "OOXML to ODF" convertors and such, but nowhere does it explain what is ODF... -- int19h (talk) 14:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A see also section is appropriate for wikilinks that are not already in the article. As the OpenDocument is already in the article it has little use adding it tot the seealso section as well. hAl (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sixth word in the article is a link to OpenDocument. What more do you what? -/- Warren 16:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ISO/IEC DIS 29500 has been deleted[9]Kevstar.31 (talk) 22:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ODF is not the only ISO document format standard, just a recent one. Those of us with long memories also remember ODA. It might still be on the ISO books somewhere. And for those who still believe in Goldfarb's vision, there's always SGML. --Alvestrand (talk) 14:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not DIS anymore and it was split into four parts: [10] 71.112.94.166 (talk) 02:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As the ISO/IEC Office Open XML format specification spec is only just been written and has not even been published yet by ISO/IEC it is save to asume that virtually no conforming implementations will exist yet. That is not strange but normal. First a standardsorganization create or change a format specification and then people can implement it. It seems that some people see this normal situation as an interesting item to critisise the current MS Office 2007 implementation which is of course still based on the Ecma 376 standard specification from 2006. However this wikipedia article is not about a single implementation not conforming against a new specifciation even before it is published but about the Office open XML format itself. For this kind of hype noninfo go to Groklaw. If after a year or so after ISO/IEC has published the specification (which is expected in a few months) noone is conforming to the ISO specification (like for instance is the case with OpenDocument) it might have some encyclopic value that an ISO version is fully ignored. However certainly before ISO even finishes with the standardization and publishes the new ISO format and the schemas that accompany the format specification it is of little value complaining that it is not implemented in certain products. As for Micrsoft they have already confirmed explicitly that they will base their prodcuts on the ISO/IEC specification here so critics do not need worry that support for the ISO/IEC version will underway. In fact Micrsoft will already release their Office open XML software development kit based on the new specifications in may 2008 source. I hope information this keeps the overly keen editors at bay. hAl (talk) 16:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I undeleted my add to the standardization section, because I think you were non neutral when you deleted it.

• The fact that an implementation does not conform to a new not yet published format specification has no encyclopedic value: on the contrary, this has an encyclopedic value; OOXML try to promote interoperability between word processing softwares, and yet even the root implementation does not conform to it yet. I am not saying that it would never conform to it, although some authorities in the domain (Tim Bray is, you would agree), think the contrary. In fact I was even careful to add that the deltas with the standard were the parts that were changed after the ballot, before the final acceptance.
• How could old existing documents conform to a new specification that has not even been fully published as a standard yet : this is not the point here, this is a matter of interpretation. The fact remains that Office 2007 is not still conformant to the standard.

Please don't delete stuff like that with no good reason. I would have very much accepted changes in the text (I even added a part saying that these differences are normal for now), but deleting like that is VERY unencyclopedic ;-) Hervegirod (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether Microsoft Office 2007 conforms to the new specification or not has nothing to do with the spec itself. This belongs to the Microsoft Office 2007 article. Ghettoblaster (talk) 23:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. It would be the same as saying that StarOffice or WordPerfect do not conform. I think that this information really belong to this article, or to the Standardization of Office Open XML article. Quote from the beginning of this article: Microsoft originally developed the specification as a successor to its binary Microsoft Office file formats. It is also called Office Open XML format, and for a good reason. The Implementation paragraph also says that Office Open XML (as specified by Ecma 376) is the default Microsoft Office 2007 format. So putting elsewhere the fact that there are some differences between OOXML (as specified by ISO) and their Microsoft reference implementation would leave a part of the story untold. But I agree that maybe the part about the partial conformance could rather be put in this paragraph. Hervegirod (talk) 23:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The level of support in Office 2007 probably needs adding to the (long, uncontroversial?) section on "application support". I'm willing to bet that a number of those "supporting" applications will not pass a strict conformance test to either the ECMA 376 or the ISO format, and I'm willing to bet even more that most of the applications that can both read and write OOXML will not preserve all information on a round-trip conversion. But people who have actually read actual tests of compatibility should add that information, not me, who's merely betting. --Alvestrand (talk) 05:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You state that OOXML does not conform to the standard. That is incorrect. Micsoft office does conform to the current version of the open standard but does not yet conform to the unpublised new version of the standard. The fact that you misstate this simple truth shows that the infor you try to isadd is trying to create confursion rather that give an encyclopedic insight. hAl (talk) 05:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a similar stament on conformance to the ISO/IEC specification to the Opendocument article. It will be interesting what will happen if Microsoft produces an ISO/IEC conforming application and of course Opendocument will then still not have an ISO/IEC conforming main implementation. hAl (talk) 10:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good work, but I would skip the "of course", we should not try to read in the stars, as often written here. Let's see what Microsoft (and others in the ODF world) do before... Hervegirod (talk) 11:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to begin a new edit war (maybe), but it seems to me that the sentence: With Ecma International publishing the specification for free and patents made irrevocably available on a royalty-free basis through the Open Specification Promise, Office Open XML conforms to all characteristics of the European Union's definition of an open standard, in the Open Specification Promise section is WP:OR (the source is just a link to a generic IDBAC document). Does somebody have sources about this claim? Hervegirod (talk) 00:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I used to have each the four individual characteristics of the EU definition covered all individually in the article but opponents of Office Open XML removed them.

• The standard is maintained by Ecma, a non profit organization with an open descision making procedure.
• All Ecma standard are availalble free of copyrights
• The OSP provides irrevocable royalty free availability of possible patentclaim
• The standard can be (re)used with out constraints as all Ecma standards can.

and all with with sourcing of course. Would you like me to put that all back in the article ?

However, you might also want to look at the OpenDocument article which states: The OpenDocument standard meets the common definitions of an open standard, meaning the specification is freely available and implementable'. I have never seen that common definition of an open standard and it is has never been properly sourced either.hAl (talk) 10:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hm - I can find the flat statement on the ECMA website that they make their standards available "free of copyright", but (as I learned to my chagrin when working through the IP thickets in the IETF's IPR working group) saying so doesn't make it so, and with the nature of copyright under the Berne convention, it might actually be impossible to do so. If you have a pointer to Ecma's actual grant of license to use its standard, that would be wonderful. (not least because it'd be useful to have it as a model to suggest to others....) --Alvestrand (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand what you mean by a grant of license to use its standard. What rights that Ecma posesses after publication of the standard free of copyrights would you like Ecma to grant you ? You suggest there is some right Ecma could grant you to use its standard. Which kind of IP right would that be ...? hAl (talk) 22:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the "openness" of the two standards (OOXML and ODF) is difficult to express and/or to prove, if we look at it in a strict point of view; but maybe this is due to the nature of the ECMA and ISO organization (they were created more than 20 years before GPL, and even GPL was not taking Patents into account before version 3). I think that your proposal would add more clarity. It makes me think that the same kind of work should be done with the ODF article ;-) Hervegirod (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This are current relevant statments on the Ecma site.

The Ecma copyright statement:

Ecma Standards and Technical Reports are made available to all interested persons or organizations, free of charge and copyright, in printed form and, as files in Acrobat ® PDF format.

The Ecma formal aim declaration:

To publish these Standards and Technical Reports in electronic and printed form; the publications can be freely copied by all interested parties without restrictions.

Also the Ecma code of conduct in patent matters shows that Ecma members must give rand licensing for their patents on standards they participate in OR even just vote favourably on to be approved as an Ecma standard. hAl (talk) 22:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) When rustling around the ecma website, I found this page: [11], which is a pretty OK license-to-use for anything submitted to ECMA (such as the original OOXML specification from Microsoft, or proposals for edits made thereafter). (It's only for TC45, but is probably pretty standard for ECMA). The interesting thing is that it is NOT an assignment of copyright; copyright for a submission still rests with the original submitter. It's not clear (because it's not written in this license) how copyright actually gets created in the actual standards text - the standard (!) methods are "preparing the standard is work-for-hire for the standards organization, whether you get paid or not", and "you retain a copyright in the derived work that is the standard, but you have promised that we and others can do whatever we want with it". I've got no beef with what they want to achieve (I heartily approve, in fact!), but I'd very much like to see the legal language they have used to achieve it. --Alvestrand (talk) 11:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As the original poster in this section rightly pointed out the statement and reference link are original research WP:NOR. The statement that "Office Open XML conforms to all characteristics of the European Union's definition of an open standard" and gives a reference to what the European Union's definition of an open standard. For it not to be original research the reference would have to come from a 3rd source (preferably a news site) saying that it does conform. As it is referenced now the reader has to find out what those characteristics are and what the definition is and compare them. That is proof that it is original research. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't this more "From the horse's mouth" rather than original research? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.243.165.200 (talk) 18:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, and you may want to read more on Original Research here WP:NOR. The first two lines gives the rule "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." The claim that "Office Open XML conforms to all characteristics" is the issue. There is no reference that says it conforms. Only a reference to European Union's definition proving that definition exists. But the problem here isn't that the European Union's definition exists. But that a reference is needed to show that "Office Open XML conforms to all characteristics". This is not out of the horses mouth, there is no reference that says it. It is unpublished analysis that the one conforms to the other. I have placed a {{fact}} marker where the reference is needed. If a reference cant not be found within a short period of time the claim will need to be removed. AlbinoFerret (talk) 17:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction of any Wikipedia article should be a summary all the information about that subject. In the case of this article, it isn't. Both the article and the intro do not sufficiently summarize the tremendous controversy surrounding OOXML/OXML. It is the most controversial standards decision to ever come before the ISO, but you wouldn't know it from the current intro. Instead, there now exists a content fork, whereby this article is cleansed of controversy, and the controversy has been moved to the secondary article Standardization of Office Open XML. The controversy is a major part of the OOXML/OXML history, and what people know about the format, and how the media and outside resources cover the format. A reasonable proportion of this article should be devoted to the controversy surrounding the format, as should a reasonable proportion of the intro.Lester 22:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Controversy is notable, but only so far as it exists. If the controvery is notable enough for "sizable" content, then it should be notable enough to have its own article. The controvery does not define what OOXML is. It's fine to mention it, but if it's that important it belongs in it's own article. Controvery detracts from the encyclopedic quality of any article because it focuses on things that are external to the topic itself. Further, in my opinion, controvery only belongs in an article after the dust has settled. It's too easy for those caught up in the controversy to add inappropriate and non-NPOV comments, and if it's that new, the sources are likely to be less reviewed and factual since ther will have been less time for those sources to be validated by peer review. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.250.176 (talk) 05:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I must say that inclusion of information about the world wide controversy regarding OOXML at the ISO is not "a soapbox". The intro should be a summary of both this article and the ratification article. Inclusion of controversy, that is, both positive and negative aspects about a subject, does not "detract from the encyclopedic quality" of an article. Rather, it provides balance. Burying all controversy in a second article is truly a content fork and must be fixed. The intro needs mention of the controversy to stay within Wikipedia guidelines. Lester 05:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article was recently reverted (>>Diff<<) to remove information that OOXML has been criticized because it reduces competition. On the edit summary of the revert, it said "Becta complaint is not accepted as a formal complaint by EU." This edit summary did not give an adequate reason for reverting the article. I assume the editor was referring to this story in The Register which says the BECTA complaint is not a formal complaint, however the EU will still be accepting and analyzing BECTA's complaint. I don't see how that relates to the revert of the article. It is well known that the common complaint about OOXML is that it reduces competition. There are thousands of news articles on the internet which document this. I call upon the reverting editor to state what he/she believes is required (eg a large number of references about OOXML & competition added to the article) before reverting the article again. Thanks, Lester 05:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As you already conform that the becta complaint is not treated as a formal complaint by the EU it is of little use in the article. The article is not a news site for listing individual OOXML complaints. If the EU makes formal descisions regarding OOXML that impacts this format then it is ceertainly relevant for the article. Also the becta complaint was also about pricesetting of Microsoft Office products in brittisch education which is of course totally irrelevant in this article anyways as that belong to the MS office article. You state that a common complaint is that OOXML reduces competition but it would only have merit if some independant recognized expert on the subject writes an article about that and you would then probably get a whole list of article stating that OOXML actually makes it easier for competitors to implement the formats used in MS Office. It will be hard to show that using an open standard XML format reduces competition compared to using a closed propriety binary format. hAl (talk) 06:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First, I call upon User:HAl to stop reverting newly added and referenced content seconds after it has been added. There have been worldwide complaints about OOXML, and how it affects competition and interoperability, and there are endless major references available to back it up. It doesn't matter we think the criticism is valid or not valid. The fact is there is worldwide criticism which should be included in the article. It is not up to our own opinions about whether it is hard to show criticism is valid or not. Please stop reverting and deleting referenced material, and allow time for the Wikipedia community to discuss the content. Lester 06:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Lester. no matter how major or important the person who made the criticism might be, its still his/her opinion. We never state such opinions as facts ("criticized for discouraging competition") Because it is an opinion, it has to be presented as such ("criticized by Organization X, which thinks it discourages competition"). "Some" is a weasel word and should not be used, without any quantification. And just saying it "discourages competition" adds absolutely nothing to the article (and hence not required) unless it is backed up with how it does so. --soum ^talk 06:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Soumyasch. I accept your comment that the wording could be improved. My complaint was about information being deleted altogether. OOXML is a controversial format, as any Google search will show. Criticism has come from many sources, so we can always add more references if you feel that the word "Some" doesn't cover it. We can also be specific about how it discourages competition. I'm happy for rewording, more references and improvement, rather than deletion. Thanks, Lester 06:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might find this reference useful,zdnet. It says that the BECTA complaint is being added to the existing complaint the EU is investigating. "Becta has now taken its interoperability complaint up to the Commission, to be folded into that wider investigation." It wasn't submitted to create a new complaint but to add new information for an existing one. AlbinoFerret (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted edits by MonirTime. The account is a single use account that shows knowledge of editing practices. The edits removed controversial topics still under discussion without any discussion. AlbinoFerret (talk) 04:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—meaning, in this context, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." (Verifiability)

Furthermore "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion." (Neutral point of view).

And then "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought".

--MonirTime (talk) 08:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the wikilawyering club. Those principles do not state that widely held, well known and referenced opinions can be deleted from the article without prior discussion. Restored. --Alvestrand (talk) 09:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From your own mouth ""The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—meaning, in this context, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." Your edits removed referenced information [12] [13]. Your account was created within seconds of your first edit. You showed a knowledge of wikipedia jargon in the edit comments, and you now quote rules. These are red flags waving in the face of people who have watched controversial articles. AlbinoFerret (talk) 13:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello

according to Office will support ODF will support ODF, but still not the ISO OOXML format. This fact should be in the Office 2007 article, but may be also in here. Any comments? Oub (talk) 16:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added this and hopefully have made it clear - David Gerard (talk) 20:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, with the South African appeal against the vote, the ISO version is now only DIS 29500 and not ISO/IEC 29500 unless and until the appeal is resolved. I've edited the article accordingly. If my understanding is incorrect, please do correct! - David Gerard (talk) 20:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually that is not correct. In ISO naming DIS 29500 refers to the draft version as submitted into the fasttracking proces. ISO/IEC 29500 refers to the approved version. So allthough ISO/IEC 29500 is not yet a fully completed and published ISO standard the naming is already changed from the draft version and that ISO/IEC 29500 naming is now in use on the ISO site. hAl (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, OK, please fix :-) - David Gerard (talk) 09:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have replaced a referenced criticism removed by user HAl [14]. The criticism is referenced and to my knowledge truthful. Microsoft has not committed to using any form of OOXML for any length of time. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Micrsoft has already comitted to using ISO/IEC 29500 in their future version of MS Office, (currently designated Office 14) which might arrive in 2010/2011.

http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2008/may08/05-21ExpandedFormatsPR.mspx

As Microsoft gives extended support to such versions at a minimum of ten year after the product is released ( MS Office#Support lifecycle )this mean Microsoft has committed to supporting the format to at least 2020. So if anybody if doing the controversial edits it is actually you because you add old info which was already weak to begin with as the article actually already holds a reference containing an open letter that Microsoft was committed to supporting the ISO/IEC 29500 in their products. hAl (talk) 07:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Microsoft has not guaranteed to use and keep the implementation of OOXML in ISO/IEC 29500. They say they have a roadmap to put it in place. But until Office 14 is actually released, ISO/IEC 29500 is not even guaranteed to be included. Ever hear of Vaporware? The extended support is for Office 14, it is not for ISO/IEC 29500. Microsoft could remove ISO/IEC 29500 with an update, not update it to the current form of ISO/IEC 29500 if its changed, or change OOXML to be incompatible with ISO/IEC 29500. Even the open letter does not pledge a time fraim that they will use ISO/IEC 29500. It is as carefully worded as any politicians speech I have ever read. It uses a lot of words but never says they will use ISO/IEC 29500 until any specific date, not even to a year. Your links do not disprove what the original reference claims. I am replacing the referenced claim, provide a reference with a date, or leave it in place. AlbinoFerret (talk) 11:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The comment that Microsoft will support ISO/IEC is made in an official press release and in an open letter. This is more commitment than any other software company has pledged for the future of any format. Unless you come up with any evidence that these statment are a lie then this is enough evidence of showing commitment. Your referenced claim predates the references I just gave you. So clearly Microsoft has confirmed their commitment afer the info you added and thius invalidated your referenced source information. But in all fairness for comparisons you could possibly point me to a place where for instance IBM gives you a 100% guaranteed commitment to supporting ODF beyond 2020 ????? hAl (talk) 11:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The statements dont give a date, or even a year. That Microsoft put out so called commitment statements afterwards without giving a date does not matter. The reference is still good unless Microsoft actually gives a time based commitment. Be aware that you have reverted this 3 times already. AlbinoFerret (talk) 11:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]