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Archive 1 -- May 2007

Creation of the Republic This selection making the Trinitarios look racist which they weren't. Juan Pablo Duarte clearly stated that it was not a race thing, that he actually admire Haiti. Not all Trinitarios were white, Francisco del Rosario Sánchez was a mulatto. I understand there a growing anti-Dominican campaign ing on, but i thought this page was about facts not propaganda.

update Now the Trinitario inspire KKK, this page is about facts not propaganda. So please stop using this as way to spread propaganda. The Trinitario weren't racist, or all white. User:avfnx

U.S Military Control This part seems to be, perhaps, translated directly from Spanish. In English, we cannot really say 'two periods' past, or 'four periods.' Either time is measured in years, months or is a single 'period' of time. I'd replace these 'periods' with the exact number of years or months (I need to look this up though. Can anyone else verify some numbers?) Cuvtixo 19:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the 2005 Annual Report of the United Nations Subcommittee on Human Development in the Dominican Republic, the country is ranked #71 in the world for resource availability, #94 for human development, and #14 in the world for resource mismanagement. These statistics emphasize the national government corruption, the foreign economic interference in the country, and the rift between the rich and poor.

Is that so? This last sentence bugged me the first time I read it, and it continues to bug me. The statistics are helpful, but these three conclusions need a lot more support, and sound more like theses of research papers rather than encyclopedic content. I would like to see this last sentence cut altogether. If the next person who reads this agrees with me, please cut it.

These statistics emphasize the national government corruption, the foreign economic interference in the country, and the rift between the rich and poor....I Dont think this Is Accurate and if it is it should be cited. I am A Native born of the Country and i know there is Corruption, Economic Interferences but i dont think that it is all the reason it has. I think there is more in it than that and for now it should be removed...in fact!even in the U.S there is corruption. Corruption is everywhere but is not the entire reason..EdwinCasadoBaez 02:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can make out, the UN (http://www.un.org) doesn't even have a "Subcommittee on Human Development in the Dominican Republic", let alone a ranking of resource mismanagement. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.90 20:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, here's a supporting source on the UN's Human Development Index ranking of #94 (2006). -- LeCour^T:C 00:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• And here's another good UN resource (2005). -- LeCour^T:C 00:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• But neither source mentions resource availability or resource mismanagement that I can quickly see. Although that second resource will take a lot of analysis time :) -- LeCour^T:C 00:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No country in the world, except Vatican city, has a population that is 95% Roman Catholic. That is not only grossly inaccurate, it is absurd.

The Dominican Republic has a very old, large, and rapidly growing Anglican Church. http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/diocese.cfm?IDind=632

This whole section is right out of the Catholic Encyclopedia and completely ignores the explosive growth of Protestant churches in the Dominican Republic, including Mormons and Pentacostals.

Does anyone moderate this stuff?12.72.208.136 02:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the article again. The 95 % figure refers to the population adhering to Christianity, not to Roman Catholics. Also the growth of Protestant denominations is mentioned. The reference given is not the Catholic Encyclopedia. So I fail to see the problems you mention. VirtualDelight 10:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please confirm to me somewhere that states they didn't have Puerto Rican heritage. 64.131.205.111 21:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed "In the late 1800's and early 1900's large groups immigrated to the country from Venezuela and Puerto Rico, so much so that 2 of the country's former presidents (and rivals ironically) Juan Bosch and Joaquín Balaguer, both had Puerto Rican parents." to "In the late 1800's and early 1900's large groups immigrated to the country from Venezuela and Puerto Rico. Two of the country's former presidents Juan Bosch and Joaquín Balaguer, both had had parents who immigrated from Puerto Rico." as I think that "(and rivals ironically)" is personal opinion rather then fact. I did not change the fact of regarding Puerto Rican heritage. So I fail to see the problem here. I do have a problem with your undoing of all my recent edits to change the wording of one sub-section. VirtualDelight 21:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

VirtualDelight....Joaquin Balager and Juan Bosch were Rival for the fact that they were in opposite Parties. One was in the Dominican Liberation Party(Juan Bosch actually started this party) and the other one, Joaquin Balager was of the PRSC(Partido Reformista Social Cristiano).EdwinCasadoBaez 00:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heritage http://dr1.com/news/2002/dnews073002.shtml http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:oatRh_MbqGYJ:www.geog.umd.edu/homepage/courses/313/Lectures/geog323_lecture7_Exodus%2520to%2520and%2520from%2520the%2520Continent.ppt+Joaqu%C3%ADn+Balaguer+puerto+father&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=21&gl=us

I have found the sources of the questionable statements that have caused much debate on this article.

" In 1838 Juan Pablo Duarte the son of a Spanish born merchant, formed along with Spanish descended Ramón Matías Mella and Francisco del Rosario Sanchez founded a racist secret society called La Trinitaria created to overthrow and undermine any government run by people of color. Driven by a belief in white supremacy and a desire to create a counter-revolutionary white-catholic run state, the Trinitarios declared independence from Haiti on February 27, 1844 [1] . Drawing inspiration from St. Dominic's Order of Preachers responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of Jews and Moors during the Spanish Inquisition, The name Dominican Republic was chosen as a testament of white supremacy over individuals of color. This victory inspired other white supremacist movements in the western hemisphere, notably the Ku Klux Klan. The victory of La Trinataria also inspired significant parts of the plot of D.W. Griffith's famous silent movie "A Birth Of A Nation" in 1915. "

The text under the "Creation of the Republic" is in-accurate ,the source does not support this text "In 1822 Haitian liberation forces unified the entire island under a free government of color, ending 300 years of colonial domination and slavery. Roads were built; school curriculums were changed from a Spanish view to a worldview. Institutions of European colonialism were also phased out, and replaced with ones more representative and respectful of Taino and African culture. Land was redistributed communally and individuals who had benefited from the Spanish invasion and domination of the island were rightfully expelled [5]."http://www.hispaniola.com/dominican_republic/info/history.php.The text cannot be found on the website.Also,This describes the Haitian occupation as a "liberation" (sound familiar?),its an overwhelmingly biased peace of text.

• Considering that 209.247.5.216 seems to have a history of vandalism and deletion (including this today), I think that many of his/her non-NPOV contributions should also be regarded as vandalism. -- LeCour^T:C 05:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They come from 63.215.27.201 at

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dominican_Republic&diff=next&oldid=131235242 and 146.95.69.177 at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dominican_Republic&diff=prev&oldid=131157287 and 146.95.69.177 at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dominican_Republic&diff=prev&oldid=131158496

Please question these individuals above. This seems to be more of a historical context. http://countrystudies.us/dominican-republic/4.htm

64.131.205.111 04:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually the mention of racism seems to have started here and the next few edits on May 6 by 209.247.5.216. -- LeCour^T:C 05:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trinitario

I will prove that it wasn't a racist movement, I will be collecting sources, and writing from Duarte himself. One more thing why so important to include that Trujillo (kill als0 lot Dominican) killed Haitians...first was know the creation of the Republic now is know the creation and develoment only to include that sentence. Why not also how Haiti trying kill the Spanish culture, how Dominicans of light skin had to hide in the the Cibao (and there werent hiding cause there were going be treated nice). Why can't we have History not propaganda. For those that don't understand where I'm coming from there a movement going on, that trying drag Dominican in the mud, so sorry if it seem like i have to much emotion, or edit this more then i should, but ya could see I didn't write propaganda, and Trujillo been 1/4 Haitian i would like other source, cause i have never heard of that. Thank you User Talk:avfnx

I Just want to add that i Agree with your point here. In this Dominican Republic Article their is a lot of propaganda Unaccurate information which can even be considered vandalish. Trinitario was in no part a racist movement even thougth it was a secret movement against spaniard colonization!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trujillo Haitian Heritage

I looked for a while on the alleged Trinitario racism and couldn't find anything on it. It seems to be some extremely creative editing which cannot be proved anywhere else. If you can find something on it then maybe it can be placed in, but I don't think it will be found. Trujillo's being 1/4 Haitian is pretty well documented. His exploits are a sad part of history. Similiar to that of Hitler in Germany or Stalin in the Soviet Union. No one is stopping anyone from placing in sourced information concerning about any Haitian attempt to kill spanish culture. I have found many sources concerning Trujillo's family: 64.131.205.111 20:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1 2 3 4 5 6

Thank you, you learn something new everyday. I actually did my own research and found out it to be true. AvFnx

I think this is another person who is troublesome, 209.204.126.166 (Talk) [2]

Dominican Republic doesn't deny anyone health care, and other thing...to get Dominican Citizenship parents only need to be legal in the country. Yes it not the samething as USA...but DR is not USA...like Italy not USA (for those that don't know Italy have Right of Blood)...once again what up w/ this propaganda...miss information about DR. AvFnx

This information is from amnesty international. Which seems to be pretty credible. This really isn't propoganda, but just a part of current history. There seems to be a lot of information on this particular subject. 64.131.205.111 12:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

amnesty international also said they treat like slave now they saying they didn't say that. The Dominican gov't don't deny Citizenship, it on Dominican Republic law that if you illegal in the country your kid don't get the citizenship. Amnesty International is part of that group lunching a Anti-Dominican propaganda in Europe. I lived in DR, study, read the news everyday...70% of the public hospital cost come from Haitian. I'm only trying trying debate this. AvFnx 02:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amnesty International isn't an anti-dominican organization. They are more for humane treatment of people. They also noted the US torture techniques in cuba. Many illegal immigrants in the united states eat up hospital costs which is also a growing debate here. There are many dominican children born in puerto rico that were here illegally, but are granted US citezenship. It isn't the fault of the children. It's been stated that the Dominican law for people to get citizenship is so tough that almost everyone who tries to apply is excluded. There are a lot of human rights abuses that have been documented. That though may have to be another article. http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=domini

So you saying that a country have no right to it sovereignty (or only Dominican Republic)...in Italy they apply right of blood (which means the parents got be Italian, so the kid can get the citizenship). Dominican Republic is simply if you illegal you, you kid don't get the citizenship...what they can't have there laws like every other country. And for the record Amnesty is it...so are two priest...they have raised over 30 million Dollar to lunch a Anti-Dominican campaign (so you know something about those priest they declare bunch kids as there own but when they left didn't take them w/ them). The US has it rules and laws...why can't Dominican Republic have theirs...granted Dominican do benefit from it, but Dominican is not trying be mini USA. They are the own people with very rich history. And so the world know no one have done for Haiti what Dominican Republic done for it, they even go out they way to ask for help for them, give them school, heath care, jobs. If was so bad how the big 3 make seem (USA,Canada,France) why would they still try come to DR...mmmmmm here a thought maybe cause not true. Let stop the the game let blame Dominican Republic so we don't have to help Haiti. The mess that France and USA made Dominican Republic got clean up...how can they when they are poor too. And one last thing if was that bad Haiti would have been taken Dominican Republic to court, but why does the Haitian government always come out to defend Dominican Republic? AvFnx 01:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly it's not really about a debate. It's about listing up to date situation that concern Dominican Republic. Rather about it being right or wrong. It is an actual event that even you state goes on and is debated in DR newspapers. The history section hasn't touched the over 15,000 Haitian's that were killed under Trujillo's rule [3] , nor the forced movement of black dominicans [4] and black haitian's to Haiti or their mistreatment. With all history there is good and bad. In an encyclopedia we should be able to show everything. The situation as it stands it similiar to the apartheid that existed in South Africa. How fair is that? Second class citizens? 64.131.205.111 22:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you talking about health care which is not true...and what Dominican Republic should have a right to follow it laws... Once again DR is not trying be a mini USA...every country got it laws about citizenship why can't Dominican Republic have it own laws. Other thing there been studies and it show that immigrants in DR don't get treat any worst then immigrants of other country. I'm tried people blaming DR for Haiti problem. Why is a big issue in DR is cause big 3 don't wanna clean up the mess they did. Avfnx 04:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IS the same case up in the USA!How come they want to kick out every illegal mexican?..Mexicans only do good for the USA and now they want to kick them out!no body says nothing because the USA is A super-power but since DR is a poor nation they get blamed for things they not suppose too!Haiti is not in a crisis because of us. We are trying to be progressive and to deal with our own problems. We cant help others when we dont even cant help our self! Why doesnt france help Haiti?Or The USA which is wasting 1.0 Billion dollar in the Iraqui War!why cant they give a 200 million dollar Bonus to haiti to fight against poverty???(i bet no body has an answer!)

The USA is the most selfish nation ever but no body says anything!but they blame a poor 3rd world nation like DR for problems haiti has!DR HAS IS OWN LAWS AND EVERYBODY SHOULD KNOW THAT!

EdwinCasadoBaez 02:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you make it too easy foor me. So the USA is the most selfish nation ever? DR is one of the top recipients of US AID with over 100 million in 1966. In the 1970's it was around 21 million a year. In 1984 to 1987, United States assistance averaged US$115 million a year in AID to DR. [5]. Should I even speak or mention the economic AID that DR receives today? No, i'll let you do this. Secondly, if America was so bad, why are so many Dominicans in the United States and why are they sending back over $2.7 billion in remittances in 2004, making the country the fourth-largest remittance market in Latin America and the Caribbean after Mexico, Brazil, and Colombia, reports the Inter-American Development Bank (IDB). [6] Dominican Republics GDP is 19.91 billion [7] . So that would be DR receives over 10% of all it's money from people in the united states. There are over 687000 foreign born dominicans in the United States. There are over 800,000 dominicans in the United States right now. So at least 10% of all Dominicans are in the United States. 59% of those live in New York. [8] . There are many mexicans that commit crimes in the United States so please don't say that all they do is good. There are positives for having Mexicans here. Just as there are positives for having Haitians in Dr. The issue is that there are over 1 million Haitian Dominicans, who were born in DR and don't have a right to education, health care or other things [9] . They have no rights. That is the issue you fail to see! Why can't someone hold a bank account? or Go to the hospital? A law like that is wrong. Was it wrong of hitler to kill jews? Yes! Was that the law? Yes it was. A law doesn't make something right! 64.131.205.111 03:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First off no one in DR is deny medical care, and on like the USA there is hospital are free of cost (yes you don't get first world care, cause DR not first world), to anyone. And now not giving someone that don't deserver the citizenship is genocide. There lot country then. Citizenship is something that has lot value in the world, by your theory let giving to all Haitian they only got claim be born in DR in the first place. You know what let make those two country in to one, let see how that well that will go, two group of people in one country (that don't want that) cause it works so well in around the world, when it better for powerful nation draw lines in the world map. Im not denying that the USA give lot help to DR, I'm a Dominican born and have benefit from the USA...but what now i don't have the right to say what on my mind, so this money it not a aid it a bride now, I thought it was aid. The truth of the matter is you take the part of Dominican History (sometimes not even true) that serve your agenda, you even put things where they don't go. And when it showed you twist that part of the article, you change that part of to make it fit. Don't not compare Dominican laws to Hitler, may I add Dominican Republic took in Jews refuges when the own highly moral USA didn't, Dominican Republic took in Haitians in the last overthrow of the government, while USA send them back to the middle of the war. Ever heard of sovereignty, every country has it right make the laws as it see fit. Italy has right of blood if you don't what that is look it up, are they doing genocide too? DR it much more simple if your legal then you child got right to it, if your not legal that means you only there temporary (that what this amnesty say, they go back home) then you don't. Right of Blood make more sense then huh, only Dominican citizens can give the citizenship to there kids, that make more sense huh. This might be English Wiki but don't mean that you the only one get edit this. And don't come with that "you not understanding it" I know how play with words. Avfnx 06:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other thing before you go on say look what Trujillo did, well he was support by the USA, the army he control was made by the USA. And he killed lot Dominican, and Balaguer other American backed government, Kill lot Dominican only cause there political belief. my point not make USA look bad it to prove you i could do the same. I know the History of my country, i know what goes on in my country who you tell me what goes on in my home, who know more someone that read or someone that lives it Avfnx 06:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I Have a Simple Question for you!64.131.205.111

Is 119$ million Dollars something when you compared it to the Trillions of dollars the american economys has???TRILLIONS in their GDP!!!!!They should give even more to latin america for all the abuse they've have done before!they are still doing it today in other areas(as they are doing in Iraq)!They destroy nations..they go into nations like they did in D.R in 1965 like if they have all the rights to jump in anywhere!and then they ""Reconstruct it"" and give money away so they could seem like they did a good job!Thats what i mean when i say self fish nation!by the way i dont think the USA would've been such a strong force without the immigrants that they have today. They get such a big amount of Human-Resource from other people from around the world. They exploit mexicans and all the other illegal immigrants!and then what gets me pissed off is that no body talks about it!everybody stays shut!EdwinCasadoBaez 16:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not 119 million once, it's over a billion dollars over a few years. You first make the claim that the US is a selfish nation, but after i show you facts. You say it's not a big deal. 50,000 isnt' a big deal. A million kind of is. 100 million is.. but over a billion dollars. How can they be selfish? That is coming out of the pockets of American Tax payers! So lets not be silly and keep calling the US selfish. How many dominican's have over a million dollars? I bet you it is less than 1% of the population. You dont' think this and you don't think that. The United States has over 300 million people. If there weren't mexicans, than Dominicans would do the work, or asians, or blacks. The same blacks you seem to hate. The US is about to give citizenship to all illegals. Something maybe DR should consider! If the United States was so bad, why the Dominican Republic want to be a colony of the USA but the US declined feeling that there was no benefit to DR. [10]. Puerto Rico did in fact want to be a commonwealth and are now the richest island in the Carribean! So much so that many Dominicans leave beautiful DR to go to rich and beautiful PR! 64.131.205.111 16:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DR wanting be part USA, that was deal was done by a dictator, like DR going to Spain...The people would have fought back and got it freedom once again, did it with spain what make you think they wouldn't have done w/ USA. So like you said if DR was so bad, why so many Haitian come to DR. 24.190.180.244 20:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He says that Puertoricans actually want to be commonwealth!!(I dont think that accurate buddy..Dont generalize)...Theirs a liberation group in Puerto Rico that wants PR to be free called macheteros i think and this group is always getting caught by the FBI and the leader was caught by the FBI some years ago i believe..So that makes me believe that PR doesnt wanna be a commonwealth,but more like that they are forced to be commonwealth by the US..I dont think the United States would ever like to free the PR because it is such an strategic place in the caribean!Even thought PR has picked to be a Commonwealth in the last couple of elections alot of puerto ricans say that they have been FIxed Elections!

By the way i dont hate Black people at all so dont be saying things that are not true...The thing that i dont like is when people talk crap like you without knowing peoples realities in DR and Haiti..You dont know this two countries history because all you see is CNN and FOX NEWS..channels that are censored and twisted by American Agencies. So now you think you have the right to come to the DOminican Article and be writing stupidities and Wrong hisory from wrong sources without even knowing the truth and the real problems that we faced with Hatians and the actual opportunities that we given them..But i guess you dont know that because all you know is "watching news and sources from your computer and reading books that probably wont tell you the truth of how things are"...I say that you should take a damn trip to DR and see how things are up there and you'll change your mind about hows stuff really is...

And was last thing: I want to let you know that i dont have nothing against black people at all and i respect them and i actually have friends that are black..But write things dat are right do not write crap PLEASE!!!!!!Stick to the United States Article*by the way It's not 119 million once, it's over a billion dollars over a few years.(SOURCES please)..i think you may be talking about loans but not free money!get that straight!if US gave so much money to DR we would be a RIch ass nation!EdwinCasadoBaez 01:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources state that Santo Domingo was the first capital of the americas. I doubt i'll find any protest and have inserted it. http://www.visiting-the-dominican-republic.com/dominican_republic_history.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)

It has been stated that the Taino population is the tie that binds, but they are also said to have been exterminated within 25 years due to mistreatment and disease. Is there any citation that shows that they lived longer? There are numerous citations that show that they died off. "The culturally indigenous Taino population is blended into the culture and considered to be the common tie that binds^{[citation needed]}. There has been claims that the Taino population died off within 25 years of settlements of Europeans. [11][12] " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)

• I find this information from a WP:RS quite interesting. -- LeCour^T:C 00:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• • Great read, extremely interesting. The survival of a culture doesn't always mean the survival of a population. Many latin words are still used in Romance languages as well as English. The Taino appear to be a specialized tribe of the Arawak or the Carrib who resided in hispanola. There may have been some Taino's in haiti, but according to records, there were none in Santo Domingo --> Dominican Republic

When I study in Dominican Republic I was told that the Taino mix, that the make up of Dominican is Taino, Spaniard and African, that what on the Dominican text book. Avfnx 04:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

any links? or refernces? 64.131.205.111 08:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here some links, and I also remember the history channel saying that majory of Dominican have Taino DNA. I don't have the text books with me; the 1st time i heard that taino didn't mix was here, in DR your told other wise. http://www.sastravelandtours.com/Tainos/Taino%20History.html http://www.hispaniola.com/dominican_republic/info/history.php Avfnx 10:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

51% Mulatto population of Quisqueya is accurate, by you placing " 90% African heritage? you making it seem that DR is Uganda or Zambia. African heritage comes in many forms, it could be by itself or it could be mixed. You can say that a Shaka Zulu has " African heritage", and that a Korean/Black mixed has " African heritage", but the two examples are not the same. We need to be more specific about types of " African heritage".

Northern Dominicans a.k.a Cibaeños, specially the light ones from the Central Valley, show strong European decent, mixed in with African, but in some locales, the European side shows more, as is the case with me. Stop trying to portray the whole of DR as if it were Zambia or Gabon, because it isn't. Is not that it is " bad " to be dark skin African, but that is just the fact. DR speaks Spanish,that has survived and is intelligible with other Spanish-speaking countries not some " creole" like in Haiti, Jamaica and other neighbors.

In reference to the term " Mulatto", wether is considered " offensive" , that is subjective. Stop imposing North American " political correctness". DR is a different country with different history. Mulatto wasn't always " a house negro " like in the U.S context. First of all, the mixed population resulted mostly in concensual interaction, that explains how many of them held administrative positions, some owned Black slaves and even became presidents. So stop this " all the America's is Kinta Kunte syndrome". Study some history before. I recommend you read Torres-Saillant's Essay " The Tribulations of Blackness" about the rise of the Mulatto in DR.Platanogenius 06:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)PLATANOGENIUS[reply]

the 90% african heritage is from the Dominican Institute at City College. I doubt a dominican institute would offend or try to offend DR. 90% African heritage means that 90% of the population has some sort of African roots. Haiti speaks French/Creole, Jamaica - English, Cuba Spanish, Puerto Rico - Spanish. The African heritage statement is not at all false and is cited by a reputable source. Mulatto like Negro is offensive in todays world. Feel free to place in reputable sources. 64.131.205.111 08:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Reputable source: the recently updated CIA Factbook shows that the ethnic groups in DR are 73% mixed, 16% white, and 11% black. -- LeCour^T:C 15:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I would think that a the Dominican Studies institute at CUNY woud give a more in depth understanding of the racial component of the Dominican Republic due to its academic status [13] . The CIA is a governmental organization whose sources and research may be of dubious basis. Even with 73% of the population being mixed and 11% being black, that does not take away from the fact that at least 84% could easily be of african heritage. Stating someone is mixed without giving racial components is dubious at best. Mixed could be asian and white, middle eastern and asian. It doesn't give strong information concerning demographics. What also isn't taken into account is the over 300,000 Haitians who live in the Dominican Republic (their education (literacy rate) and racial statistics aren't brought into consideration). Suprising considering they account for at least 4% of the population. 64.131.205.111 15:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

90% black ? I went to that link and saw that it says black and mulattos make the 90%. As being dominican myself I was always taught that the majority of dominicans are mulattos, the rest are white, black, or from the "other" category. I think the CIA fact book has more accuracy towards dominican demographics, not this new citation that was added.

This page all is using Anti-Dominican propaganda...this not about history or facts is about people point of view. I tried bring to a discussion that didn't work. I'm Dominican and I know what I am. This page has turn to the forum about how Dominican treat Haiti. The fact of the matter is no country in the world has done for Haiti what Dominican Republic does for it but hey we can't please the world only for the fact the world does care and what blame the one that trying help. How you deny citizenship when they not in title to it, what Dominican Republic can't follow it own law...Italy have right of blood, USA is right of birth. Every country has it own thing but no Dominican Republic can't have it own thing. I know there lot money been put on the fact make Dominican look like South Africa but that why there a law suit going on, that why amnesty is eating it own words, say we never said this or that. That why the Frances backing off. What you write today don't matter cause History will say at the end who right. There a saying if don't move the dog will not bark, when you start moving froward the dog will. Put blank DR must been doing something right, that everyone wanna have it there mouth. Avfnx 20:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I go with You Avfnx...No other country in the world cares about Haiti and is the truth..You see George W Bush going there and he doesnt do any crap..He just talks to the president and then leaves. We cant ignore that Haiti and DR are two different countries and we are not suppose to help them out because the rest of the world wants us to. The World wants to blame us the problem haiti is facing today but they dont realize that DR is playing an important role in giving out jobs to to haitian Illegal Immigrants(they may not be good jobs but they provide enough for food and Basic Needs)..PLEASE DONT GIVE UP!!!I AM GOING TO SEMI-Protect this page as soon as possible!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article does not respect the Neutral Point of View. It looks like its intention is to re-write history and delete any trace of Spanish ancestry by calling things like language and religion left overs. Besides, an anonymous user is trying to make it look that my edits are vandalism by stating that I added things that I didn't. I have to admit that Dominicans tend to ignore and even reject our African ancestry (even when it is physically obvious), but denying our Spanish heritage is wrong too. Several of the statements are not backed exactly as they say by their references. For example, the sentence that says that 90% of Dominicans are of African descent (without mentioning other races involved in it) is somehow biased. Not wrong, but not exactly right. The article[14] states that "90% of Dominicans are black or mulattos". Note that mulattos are not only of African descent. They (or we, I am one myself) also have some sort of white somewhere in their blood line.

from -- 22:41, 22 May 2007 Dominican (Talk | contribs)

Looking at the history it was traced to you. The I believe people who use the encyclopedia have a good comprehension of english and know the difference. Also again mulatto is a deragory word as is Negro. Mulattos are by definition a mixture of black and white. As such they have have african roots. So if you like you can say that 90% of the dominican population has african roots or ancestry. Better words for you to use might be Zambo, or mestizo , but then you would have to find statistics to back this up. [15] 64.131.205.111 00:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mulattos is wide use among Dominicans, we don't deny either one white or black. The things is we dont see that our self as race system of USA, Dominican are Dominican that it, like the culture is a mix, a blend of world culture Avfnx 03:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User Dominican above states taht many dominicans tend to ignore their african ancestry, would you not say that ignore is very similiar to almost the same as denial? 64.131.205.111 03:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, user 64.131.205.111, I apologize if I used an offensive word, I didn't think the word had a derogatory meaning, specially because it is literally used in the article[16]. Not to be picky, but could you cite any references (other than Wikipedia itself or other mirror websites like Answers.com) that say this is a word that has a deprecating meaning? I think that if we can use the article as a reference we can use the words appearing in it.

On the other hand, what I meant by saying the 90% African descent was not totally accurate is that it only mentions the African component and ignores (almost denies, as my earlier edit was deleted) the other(s) (as is done in the rest of the article), so technically it would be more accurate to mention all the races involved, including the Spanish.Dominican 06:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Reliable source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/mulatto.html and their later verdict: http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/mulatto_olab.html However, there is no censorship on Wikipedia, and if a term is used in a quote from a reliable source, I see no reason not to use it in a constructive manner. I think the word should be mentioned as it is a commonly used term in guidebooks, discussions, and articles on DR. -- LeCour^T:C 06:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure

• http://www.bartleby.com/68/79/3979.html " It was once used generically for a racial blend of any sort, but originally it meant “the offspring of a North American Indian and a European.” It has not been in polite use for nearly a century. Mulatto’s plural is either mulattoes or mulattos. Avoid all these words."
• http://www.rsdb.org/ racial slurs database
• http://gyral.blackshell.com/names.html Mullato Mixed Races Black/White mix, usually.
• http://www.ericajackson.com/writes/essays/biracial.html The very word "mulatto" carries this animal connotation; it comes from the Spanish for "little mule." This hidden racist assumption cannot be downplayed. Referring to blacks in animal terms is generally not socially acceptable, the word "mulatto," however, has been accepted as a standard reference, even though it too is a slur. If mulattos are animals, then by implication, so are blacks.

With the mixture you can state 90% of the population have at least some traces of African blood, 40% have some traces of Spaniard blood (i'm making this figure up). etc. I disagree with LeCour about reliable sources using the word mulatto because reliable sources also used words like Nigger, Fag, Spic and Gook. Censorship is bad, but there is a responsibility we all have to make a non obscene article.64.131.205.111 08:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I did say "in a constructive manner." :) One source mentions that "the word 'mulatto,' however, has been accepted as a standard reference." That is exactly why I feel that it should be mentioned. I propose something like:

"Today in the Dominican Republic, many citizens of mixed race are often referred to as mulatto. While common, the term is considered by many to be derogatory, as it derives from the Spanish word for mule and has a historical context of enslavement."

This is an encyclopedia, after all. Just because we don't like a verifiable fact, doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. -- LeCour^T:C 15:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So the gooks in Vietnam? The Fags in San Francisco, and the Niggers in South Carolina. Yes it is a fact that this is a term to use when referring to them. This does not make it non-derogatory. How about we use something like "african and spaniard mixture" this would be correct without using the word. 64.131.205.111 18:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Warning for placing in information that can't be inferred from a cite. [17]. The population statistic is unfounded and based on opinion. [18]. Opinion with unsourced information. [19]. Removing citations [20]. Placing in NPOV wording to fit an agenda [21] . Please make constructive edits, also please utilize the talk section. 64.131.205.111 03:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Let's cut down the warnings for non-vandal edits, and get on with collaboration and discussion. Not every differing opinion is a warnable offence. -- LeCour^T:C 05:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted deletion of comments made be EdwinCasadoBaez on my talk page. [22] I'd like to show the extreme behavior and irrational thinking that seems to becoming as a result of objective material that is being placed in the article. From the removal of words like [[mulatto] because it is now considered to be in the same league as negro and oriental, to the use of listings of abuses that occurred and were documented in the dominican republic by [[amnesty international] [23]. To research from the CCNY Dominican Institute stating that the population is 90% of african ancestry. I have been met with replies such as "Stop trying to portray the whole of DR as if it were Zambia or Gabon, because it isn't. Is not that it is " bad " to be dark skin African, but that is just the fact." "" Mulatto", wether is considered " offensive" , that is subjective. Stop imposing North American " political correctness". "So stop this " all the America's is Kinta Kunte syndrome". Study some history before." [24] . All in all maintaining a constructive and neutral article is what is being attempted. Please remember that this particular version of Wikipedia is the english speaking version that utilizes English customs. So although negro may be alright in spanish culture it isn't in English culture. It seems as if several highly patriotic members feel as if many things is an attack on them or their culture, when it's actually being neutal. 64.131.205.111 03:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not my point!you come up to this article and then you think you cant revert every edit anybody makes here!thats what made me mad and i am still bugged about the way you revert thing!first of all you should get an account and stop using ur IP!!if you gonna edit show your name!I been editing here since november and I never had trouble with anybody except you for the fact that you think you can revert anybodys edit without concensus and then accusing me about vandalism!!if you inside wikipedia you should worry about concensus!they are three users right now that go against your edits and no body reverts them becuase we act like real wikipedians and dont take responsability for our self only!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

by the way this article you presented here[25] shouldn't be used as a source because it was made by a reporter(his point of views) and not an actual fact. Dominican Laws state that Kids born I Dominican terriory from illegal parents shouldn't be treated as Dominican citizens. Thats the country's laws and we shouldn't be blamed for the problems Haiti is facing. United states is doing the same thing right now because they are deporting mexicans and all form of illegal immigrants. Why dont developed countries help Haiti?They Have xtreme amount of money and they cant spare some money to the haitian economy?why do Dominicans have to pay for Haiti's missery?this are some things you should think about before writing or editing pages!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why does the USA have to pay for DR's misery? With all the illegal dominicans in the USA? It is life! So what... the USA only deports those they catch and the criminals. DR deports them all! 64.131.205.111 02:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yo thanks for having my back, I keep doing editing Avfnx 02:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some statements in this section need to cite their sources:

• 1.2 million speak Haitian creole "fluently".
• The paragraph uses the custom of eating rice and beans as a proof of African descent.
• Family structure as a proof of African descent.
• It ignores the Spanish heritage by calling language and religion "left overs".

Dominican 05:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Be wary of information that comes from User: 209.247.5.216 . They can be removed, but please make notations in the talk section. 1.2 million speak Creole fluently (maybe, but no citation needed)

• rice and beans? (dubious)
• family structure (possibly many socities maintain specific types of family structures)
• leftovers? (i dont' see why it shouldn't be removed) - remove if you like.. it's non-neutral.

64.131.205.111 06:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your quick answer, user 64.131.205.111. Wao! You really keep good track of who does what in this article. Another question: why the "1.2 million speak Creole fluently" does not need citation? Can I change the number at will without citation either? Also, can a registered user (other than just an IP address) comment on this post? Dominican 13:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When you change something citation or sources are highly preferable or else you'll find people who will debate you. Edit wars suck. 1.2 million creole speakers.. it can be kept it, I guess, but a citation is probably necessary. That is a large number of people. 64.131.205.111 18:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Dominican i think you the one doing the best job right now here!!!!1.2 Million do not speak creole in DR..Thats a total lie and i agree with you!Rice and beans are foods from Spanish descent not african!Is rice and beans grown anywhere in africa??(of course not..only probably in the south region) thats why is not accurate and the "left over" should be removed for the fact that is wasnt a left over and is ignoring our spanish descent and only emphising our african "descent"..Is was imposed in our culture from our Spaniards and is part of our culture now!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

i fixed the "left over" part last night. The Haitian population is estimated by a Dominican general to be over 1 million [26] . DR doesn't take a census of those haitians so it's subjective 64.131.205.111 17:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that almost every source listed in this article is not a reliable source. Google searches are not reliable sources. Travel websites (www.st-maarten.com, www.visiting-the-dominican-republic.com, www.godominicanrepublic.com) are not reliable sources. Emails from non-experts are not a reliable source. The CIA World Factbook and ESPN are reliable sources. So, arguably, is Amnesty International. You may disagree with any reliable source, but that is less relevant. -- LeCour^T:C 05:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CIA factbook is reliable to a degree due to the fact that they are a governmental organization involved in espionage as well as other activities including subversion. They aren't a strong research organization especially when it comes to specific nations. Their stats are based on a collection of information derived from other sources. I'm a proud american, but that is a fact. I do believe that the Dominican Institute at CCNY is a strong research organization. [27] . Travel websites aren't strong, but at this point a weak citation is better than no citation. 64.131.205.111 06:10, 23 May 2007(UTC)

How is the Dominican Instiute a reliable source when they not even In D.R...if you talk about research in the UASD university in Santo Domingo it would be a reliable source but not if its an institute that is 2,000 miles away from the country and it gets it research from other locations!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look the words that CIA uses"

Dominican Republic Disputes - international: Definition Field Listing Haitian migrants cross the porous border into the Dominican Republic to find work; illegal migrants from the Dominican Republic cross the Mona Passage each year to Puerto Rico to find better work.

Puerto Rico increasing numbers of illegal migrants from the Dominican Republic cross the Mona Passage to Puerto Rico each year looking for work

Haiti since 2004, about 8,000 peacekeepers from the UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH) maintain civil order in Haiti; despite efforts to control illegal migration, Haitians cross into the Dominican Republic and sail to neighboring countries; Haiti claims US-administered Navassa Island. look at those words and saying it not bias Avfnx 03:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that the CIA isn't a good source? 64.131.205.111 03:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying CIA has it own agenda, so how can you say it a good source when they spin thing there way. You know there way of saying the truth but still spin it. And for there record last year the CIA didn't mention the immigration problem in Haiti or PR, only in DR page. Remember the CIA is a government agency so yea im saying not good source. See how the USA is above the EU only in the CIA source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29. that my point, look at the words how they use it. Same scenario Haitian going DR for work, Dominican going PR for work but which country looks better. That all im saying people have there agenda like your self, you out to prove to the world "how bad Dominicans treat the Haitians". By your own words if so bad then why do they, come could be that DR give them what there own government don't. The same as the USA give Dominicans what DR don't. And getting deported on skin color, well that happen here too. There report of Spanish people getting stop and ask for there paper, based on what you say there skin color. DR might not be the most moral country in the World, and im not saying it is. But we no way near of South Africa, or the USA for that matter. There no KKK in DR or anything near it. With out DR, Haiti will be in a worst off, guess what the world doesn't seem to care about Haiti. DR does, there next to it and if get worst then there be more pressure on the natural resources than they already putting. Look for what it is a poor country needing help it self (DR) pleading with the world to help Haiti, to give Haiti what it was promise to them. DR no super power, rich, or a country in a position to help out no one, if it was why there be so many Dominican all around the world and sending money back home to take care there family. Avfnx 06:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, so Dominicans are upset at Haitians for coming in and taking jobs. But Dominicans are leaving and taking jobs as well in PR and the USA. The population though hasn't changed. So if it hasn't changed, why can't DR's economy support the same population? Haiti is in the middle of political upheaval. People are leaving b/c they might get killed. People don't get deported because of skin color in the USA, they get deported because they don't have paperwork. Irish, Russians, Jews, Spansih, they all get deported. Dr is not like South Africa was? Well, tell me how it isn't! People who arent' citizens? mistreated by the government because of their race. No healthcare? It's probably worse than south africa was. The USA? well tell me how that is the case? The united states will give citizenship to anyone born in the USA. DR won't do that. THere is no KKK in DR because the KKK was a private organization. You don't need the KKK in DR because the Dominican government has been doing it for decades. DR is happy that Haiti is doing bad. If it weren't all the tourists would be going to Haiti instead of DR. 64.131.205.111 16:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you learn something if Haiti was doing well then DR would benefit from it, Haiti is the second trading partner of DR. They buy lot of Dominican goods...so here a thought if they were doing better then guess what they be more trade and more money going on. Haiti doing bad is bad for DR, it put more pressure on DR, and there less trade. Like when the USA economy goes down then so those the DR. I don't know where u get that from they deny health care, but once again it against the law of DR to deny health care, tell me why do Haitian take a cab from the border to Santiago to give birth in free public hospital, they do that cause they going get deny health care. Like i said before DR not trying be mini USA, we don't follow American laws we go our own laws. What happen in in May 1st rubber bullets against women, elderly and children you find that ok, and they doing raids, and asking people in the middle the streets for paper (you stuff you don't see in English news, but we see in Spanish news). And other thing we compete with the riches country in the Caribbean (PR) for tourists and are winning, against ya little baby. So get your fact straight. So know something DR would have been a richer country if was for strong country trying take over it, and stealing from it. DR has never any country in the world, but had to fight for it sovereignty so sorry if we have little little hurtle to get the citizenship like the USA you have know English and it history, and pay, everyone has there hurtle. And for the record Haitian is not a race, this much you know, and there lot black Dominicans, and before you say well then attack on black most the police and soldier force in DR is black skin. Avfnx 21:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ill be honest with you. I can barely understand what you're writing b/c of your grammar. You say that there is no denial of health care, but articles and sources say differently. Maybe the media is feeding you something different. Secondly on May 1st.. the police were attacked by people throwing rocks and bullets. You compete against the richest country in the carribean and are winning? Says who? there is more to a nation than tourism. The GPD in PR is $74.89 billion in DR its 20 billion.. Where do you get your information from? Really now... Haiti is not a race and neither is dominican. Having black skin and being black are different. Many people from Pakistan have black skin but they aren't black. 64.131.205.111 00:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My grammar might not be as good as should be, but let me go straight to the point...in tourism we are #1 that all I was saying. Other thing the PR government went bankrupt the other day, that haven't happen in DR. PR has the world super power looking after it, so not a fair match... but if USA pull it support how long do you think it will last... been the richest country in the Caribbean. DR been standing two feet from day one, and has shown the world that no foreign army will be allow in Dominican soil. If comes down to having sovereignty or been rich, i side with my country Father... sovereignty at all cost. so sorry for my country history of standing up for our self, for the pride of my people not letting other nation flag fly above ours. I don't know what you have against DR, or what make you think you better or whatever but you really need stop been so narrow minded. One thing is reading other thing is seen it for your own self. I seen what goes on in the free hospital. I know whatever DR does will not be good enough for other country or people. I end with this DR might not be the riches country in the Caribbean but it is the leader and have the full support of the Caribbean.

"Nuestra Patria ha de ser libre e independiente de toda Potencia extranjera o se hunde la isla" Juan Pablo Duarte

Avfnx 01:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So even though the PR government went bankrupt it is still richer than DR. What does that say about DR? Bankers in DR defrauded the government out of 2.2 billion dollars and DR had to take an emergency loan from the IMF for 670 million dollars, or else it would have been bankrupt. [28] . So DR is the leader of the Carribean? What happened to Jamaica? Cuba? Trinidad? you should seriously do some research. 64.131.205.111 02:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have created this section to document an aspect of this within the article. It will be approached slowly and carefully. There exists crime sections in numerous nations articles including the united states. [29], Russia [30] , Nigeria [31] . Thanks for taking the time to read this. 64.131.205.111 08:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, user 64.131.205.111. The articles about crime in theUnited States, Russia and Nigeria are separated from the main article, therefore, there is no basis for having them here. I will proceed to delete the section, create a new separate one and include the link. Dominican 13:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The United States has about 3 sentences on it as well as a link to the crime issues. Rather than a large 2 paragraph portion, 3 sentences and a link would be good as well. I think this would be a fair compromise. 64.131.205.111 18:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, user 64.131.205.111. Why do you only add sections that include negative comments and others that highlight our African heritage? You seem to be very fast in doing certain changes, but you don't even seem to care that the History section didn't have the results of the presidential elections of the last ten years. Very politely I ask you to start including some other facts besides the negative ones and the ones relating to African heritage.

The three sentences and a link about crime would only seem fair if you did that with, at least, all the countries of the area, that is, Central America and the Caribbean. Besides, the United States article is semi-protected. If you semi-protect the page and add a crime sections for all countries int the area, then I think we can get a deal.Dominican 22:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is it negative to say that DR is considered to be a humane nation that ruled out the death penalty since 1966? Is it unfair to say that there does exist crime and other wikipedia articles have them as well? African culture isn't bad and neither is taino culture or spaniard culture or Haitian culture? I'm placing in information that is neither for nor against, but is NPOV. I haven't placed in a lot of information about the dominicization that was going on in DR implemented by Trujillo. I am only one man and I can only do one thing at a time. I depend on the information from other users such as yourself to help me a complete article. I don't see the point in semi-protecting the article b/c there does happen to be individuals who contribute who choose not to have a username. We are working together against vandals. If you like we can all write about Crimes in other nations and making a small crime section. That isn't my duty. We are all volunteers. 64.131.205.111 02:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True what you say User:Dominican...This IP user only writes about the same stuff and only uses facts from CCNY institute and doesnt use facts from government offices like is suppose to!I'm really bugged with this user and i really dont like his presence over here!I dont even think he has visited D.R or has lived there ever in his life to know things about D.R!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have used facts from various websites, so lets not even go there. I have been to the dominican republic. Have you been to Santiago? Have you been to Puerto Plata? Tu quieres hablar espanol conmigo? Tu quieres leche en su cara? Diablo! By the way its the Dominican Institute at CCNY. 64.131.205.111 02:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:64.131.205.111 don't take to that level, u know what u said if you don't you should what know before u write. Si quieres te hablos en espanol tambien. Let keep this civil, cause any other way we ain't going no where, any other way. User:EdwinCasadoBaez please dont respond to that statement. Avfnx 03:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User 64.131.205.111, please refrain from using obscene expressions (even in Spanish). Stop doing that or you could be blocked.

If you want to show off your knowledge of Spanish (which is my first language, by the way), please use decent expressions. It also helps if you use grammatically correct sentences and use the adecuate punctuation marks. Dominican 05:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My spanish is just as good as your english. My spanish also wasn't obscene, it's a specific type of street slang that as you should know is native to DR. Weeeeeeepaaaa!!! 64.131.205.111 16:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually if you going use Dominican slang use it right...mira te di lu, tamo cloro...oh what should I use your slang okay pai. Avfnx 22:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

mira maldito mono tu quieres leche en su cara o en su boca? Was that good enough for you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)

Not only you implying that I'm racist, which I'm not...but I know you implying that all Dominican are, which shows how narrow minded you are. You talk about Dominican been racist, but have you have you thought you might be racist against Dominicans. What make you think that you better then Dominican, what cause you American or whatever you are, cause I can care less. If you read really read and understand Dominican history you see that they are people that very proud with a very rich history of standing up on they own and not letting them been told what to do, it started from the Tainos, to every stage of history there was always a hero that stood up for DR. That what I'm proud of, my culture; how a small country has two music genre that very popular and was started there. Who doesn't know about bachata or merengue...and a new movement that going on Rap Local. Yea our artist don't have rich cd contract but that cause they do they own record label, and do there own thing...like the Taino spirit Dominican do there own thing. For the record Dominican only got 30 years coming to the USA, and been doing thing that other immigrants haven't done. Doing things while still supporting DR . you have shown that you only one side mind. I like history all history and you see thing how country struggle to be a free country. All country in the world should be proud and i don't care what you say I'm proud of my history, im proud be Dominican. dejame dalte lu de nuevo, pork parace k te k daste en lo oscuro. ------ en tu cara? tamo cloro or is to much for you. Avfnx 01:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tainos died within 25 years of the arrival of spaniards. Bachata may have started in DR, but Merengue was started in Haiti and was made popular in DR by Trujillo (who has a haitian grandmother). That is a fact. Also Dominincans have been in the United States since at least 1960.. so that is 46 years, not 30 years. Rap local? ok another music genre that is based from american blacks. What have dominicans been doing that is different from other immigrant groups in the USA? Everyone has a great culture and something to be proud of. That doesnt mean you should put down other groups. su abuela traja leche de mi perro. 64.131.205.111 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wao!!HE KNOWS HOW TO TALK SPANISH GREAAAAAAAAAT!!!BIG DEALL!!!(I Can cuse too..except that i didnt come here to curse)!By the way i been to Santiago,Puerto Plata,Sousa,Samana,Punta Cana,Bonao,La Vega,Pedernales,Costanza,Monte Cristi,El Seibo, Yamasa,Etc...i been to the whole DR and know a lot about it so i dont think you have to test me!!you should test yourself to see if you really have enough knowledge about DR!This Annonymous User is so stuped....I swear he shoudl get banned!he is the only person over here in wikipedia that get me Fuking pissed off and am sorry for the word but he just get me pissed..I hate this stupid people that think they actually smart but that they really dont know shit!EdwinCasadoBaez 01:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you know so much why are you in denial about the facts that were given about DR? It's ok to be proud, but its better to be factual and realistic. Again please observe the Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. 64.131.205.111 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You(the ip person)present the " CUNY" source, so what? 90% African is not an accurate, because like the other person said, it oblitarates the European heritage completely, by not making any mention of it.

I don't know who you are or what your agenda is, but I do find the demographic article to be offensive to Cibaeño(Northern) Dominicans. We know who we are, we know our country. My family has been in Quisqueya for centuries, they have fought the French, the Haitians and the Spaniards in the 18th century, it has been passed out from generation to generation. So stop insulting the heritage of white-skin Dominicans here, like if " we don't exist".Platanogenius 16:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Platanogenius.[reply]

You should actually take a look at CCNY, who went there, the amount of noble prize winnners, fortune 500 executives, as well as sports championships that have come from the school. If you have a strong idea of CUNY you would know that CCNY is a college within the CUNY system. CUNY is a world class univeristy system and CCNY I can easily say has produced more world renown students than any university in the Carribean including DR. Even Colin Powell went there. Secondly, white skinned dominicans does not mean that they are white or caucasion. They can still be white skinned be black. This exists within African Americans i.e. [32] [33] [34] . No one insulted white skinned dominicans or stated that they don't exist. 64.131.205.111 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lastly, the CUNY Dominican Institute at CCNY is very specific and has done much work. You should take a read at it. [35]

Everytime you edit this article you make me nuts, and i mean 64.131.205.111 . You dont know about dominican history or demographics!I am light skinned dominican with ligh colored(green but thats no the point) eyes and my mom is like the rest of my family is light colored(Even thougth thats not the point i am trying to state)!I dont go against black race or black people but am sure that the "90% african roots or decent" is inaccurate not to say that is complete crap and it makes me mad and embarrased (because of the one sided view this article has)!If you going to add something up in this articles ask us first because you surely dont have any idea of what the Dominican Republic is and it's people!(you should take a ride into Santo Domingo or Cibao Region and you'll see theres a lot of non African ancestry dominicans there!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know that many asians have green eyes? http://kennethomura.tripod.com/asian_eyes/ So eye color does not make you any specfic race. Terrence Howard the actor has green eyes [36] . There are many people who aren't white who have light colored eyes. http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13035&PN=5 Is a prime example. Do look at the photographs on the website. Light skin doesnt mean you are white. Asians have light skin and some have grey eyes. But they are not caucasian. Caucasian is a race and it seems like you are trying your hardest to be or relate to something you are not. 64.131.205.111 02:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

YOUR CONCEPT OR RACE IS LUDRICOUS

To ip 64.131, you are trying to impose " one-drop rule myth", hyperdecent and other racist thrash from the legacy of Jim Crow into a country like DR. Ernesto Sagas is a Dominican professor at CUNY,and not even him accepts that thrash. You showed yourself. You showed a picture of Collin Powell? hahaha. That's not what I meant by " white-skin" Dominicans. Collin Powell( a Mulatto, btw) is FAR from being " white-skinned". I placed the suffix " -skinned" on purpose. I meant by that, is that even when there is a mixture, the amount of European blood is much larger, thus giving the person " White skin" and more European-like characteristics. Not somebody looking like Simbad. Ex:link title, [http://www.hoy.com.do/article.aspx?&id=18092# link title. These people passed as White during the colonial period. If they have a grandfather looking like Collin Powells, then they cannot they are " white" like some Viking let's say. But i'm wondering how come nobody is calling Bill Clinton a " mestizo" since he had a Cherokee grandmother?? hmm. Nice North American double-standards, one-drop only applies when it comes to African decent only. Anyways, I'm not here to discuss the " screwed up concept of race" in other countries, but the reality of DR. The concensus here among Dominicans, is that the " 90% African decent" is a vague statement, people that claim other heritages mixed, want to be classified as mixed, in the case of DR, as Mulattoes, because they DO VIEW themselves racially different from the Sammy Sosa-type Dominicans.Platanogenius 05:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius.[reply]

Alright, no one is forcing this on DR. DR doesnt own this article. This is on the American and English version of wikipedia. Secondly, not to insult you, but your grammar shows that you aren't a native english speaker. Thus you may not fully understand some of the nuances of the conversation. You are claiming European like characteristics without being European. In all honesty, why don't you just say Spaniard. White skinned? Colin Powell is white skinned. So is Vanessa_L._Williams. Have you thought that maybe that all those nations don't have a screwed up concept of race and maybe some Dominicans are in denial? Look at your own former president rafael trujillo [37] "attempts to "whiten" the predominantly mixed-race nation. He favored the arrival of white or Caucasian people over the rest, in a methodical attempt to increase the white population" . "Trujillo was openly inspired by Hitler's racial theories and ordered the massacre as a way of "whitening" his country. To quiet critics, Trujillo deployed an intense "Dominicanization" propaganda campaign portraying his racist mania as a paternal act to save his people from Haiti. " [38] . This belief exists even today. You do know that denial isn't just a river in Egypt, right? 64.131.205.111 16:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dude..am not claming no european race or anything of that sort(My mom is ligth skinned and my dad is actually dark skinned becaused they intermarried)..what am trying to state is that theirs a lot of people in the Cibao Region which are not from african ancenstry as you say!they are certain things that you say which are not right!!Well English is not my native language either and i dont want it to be!I am proud of having spanish as my native language the same as the rest of the dominicans in wikipedia...I am Dominican and i dont care about spaniard descent and i dont consider my self white either. the only point am trying to state here is that "the 90% african descent..." is not factual..You wrote this before and thats not true!I totally disagree with this quote and as long as that quote stays there i am gonna keep the argument going!

Did you know that many asians have green eyes? http://kennethomura.tripod.com/asian_eyes/ So eye color does not make you any specfic race. Terrence Howard the actor has green eyes [39] . There are many people who aren't white who have light colored eyes. http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13035&PN=5 Is a prime example. Do look at the photographs on the website. Light skin doesnt mean you are white. Asians have light skin and some have grey eyes. But they are not caucasian. Caucasian is a race and it seems like you are trying your hardest to be or relate to something you are not. 64.131.205.111 02:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did i ever said that Eye color makes you an specific race???Did i ever stated in the above comments that i wanted to be white or caucasian?I AM PROUD TO BE DOMINICAN AND THATS WHAT I AM....The only reason i brougtht up that i am light skinned and my family is too is so you can know that a lot of people in DR are not of African Ancenstry and that "90% african acenstry" is not factual!Thats all am trying to say here and then you accuse me that i am trying to be white which is not true and that makes me feel angry by you saying that..So you should watch your mouth!!!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You implied that b/c you have green eyes and white skin you must have caucasian or european blood. I proved you to be false. Again light skin doesnt make you non african. Again denial is more than a river in egypt. 64.131.205.111 02:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where the fuk did i said that...you stupid idiot...i said that this proves that 90% to be african descent is totally wrong but it doesnt mean am white either..stop pulling words from my mouth without i ever saying something like that..is not like Being WHITE gives you and extra preference..all i know is that i am dominican and that the quotation is not accurate!...Dont you realize that everybody goes against you in this discussion???Is because you wrong!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please take notice of the no personal attack policy of wikipedia. [40] Not everyone, just some people who are native born dominicans who don't want the truth about the abuses that have gone against some haitians to be out there. As well as the racial demographics. 64.131.205.111 03:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to request semi-protection for this page to avoid annonymous users creating edit wars. Does anyone know the right procedures for this? Dominican 22:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look at this Please! Semi Protect!PLEASE!I ASKED THEM BEFORE BUT THEY REJECTED MY REQUEST...be the second one to ask and tell them the problems that happen in this page!

• Wikipedia:Requests for page protection

• EdwinCasadoBaez 23:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Concept of race section was moved above semi protection

I'm not going to engage into a Bizantine Arguement with a one-droppist/Jim Crower. Your mind is made up already. English is not my native language, that's right, but my message goes thru fine, the problem is that there are " mental blockades" for other people that get bothered with the truth.

I've never said that I'm European,because I wasn't born and raised in Europe,but I DO have majority European blood, nobody, neither in country redneck southern u.s or Europe has ever one-dropped me, so if you don't know me, don't be talking thrash. Also, don't be lecturing me on Dominican history,about " Trujillo", because you don't even scratch the tip of the iceberg. Trujillo killed my grandfather in 1956, he was against his abuses, all that appeared on the newspapers was " Dr.x dissapeared Tuesday night", and that was it. He was whiter than cotton, as many members of my family. My greatgrandparents helped many Haitians scaped the 1937 Massacre.

What you thought, that just because I acknowledge my European Ancestry,which is a FACT, evident in my phenotype and family lineage, that would automatically make it a " Trujillist idealist" or " whitening/denial, etc,etc?? You don't know me to prejudice me. Back in the 1930's, racism and discrimination was legal everywhere. The president of El Salvador, Maximiliano Gomez, prohibited the entrance of Blacks into that country in the 1930's, Argentina also had White-only immigration laws, Japan was carrying out massacres and proclaiming themselves superior to the Chinese. Hell, even in the U.S, there were signs saying " No Irish allowed", and the Irish are whiter than virgin snow. So don't be singling out DR as the " only devil" in the world community back then. You have shown us here your biased agenda, like if Spanish language and religion and other customs fell out of planet Mars, instead from the remnants of the colonial era like my family.

That's right, DR doesn't own wikipedia, neither do you. You don't own the English language too. Tell me, who decided that terms like " Negro and Mulatto" are offensive in the English language?? I'm going to ask Queen Elizabeth II, maybe she is the owner of the English language, if she finds it offensive, then it is offensive then " sigh".

Be assured that the biased demographics that you presented WILL BE CHANGED,to include the diverse racial landscape of DR, not some anti-dominican, anti-european heritage biased, reactionary view. DR is a country with diverse political, religious, social views, NOT everybody is a " anti-africanist", or " Scandinavian-wannabe".70.177.181.129 23:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius.[reply]

Dominicans who have any type of European blood have spaniard blood. Spaniards by the way are mixed with Moors. The Moors ruled most of Spain for hundreds of years and as a result there is still African blood in spain. So any way you rule it DR has african blood. Secondly many nations had slavery and racism, but most declared it to be illegal and stopped the open practice of it. DR has yet to do that. [41] Which is a shame. You talk about Trujillo being so bad, but you are still believing a lot of the values he put forth. The anti-black, denial of african roots and more. Did you know that Merengue which was made the national music of DR by Trujillo was originally haitian music [42] . It was one of his biggest accomplishments and a dedication to his haitian roots. Well, anyway, keep reading. Society by the way decides that negro and mulatto are offensive terms. 64.131.205.111 00:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merengue came from Haiti wow that a first, what happen to the theory that was going on the web that merengue was from PR. Dominican do there own music, don't need steal no one music like some country of the Caribbean. (and im not talking about Haiti, for the record. Avfnx 02:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you're saying that Trujillo wasn't part Haitian? Are you also saying that Meringue and Merengue aren't the same with the exception that one is in creole and the other is in spanish and the beat is slightly faster in Merengue? It's like saying Spanish rap didn't originate in the bronx and wasn't based off american rap. that's just being silly. 64.131.205.111 02:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you argue with that Farrakhan?? Ignore that moron, he doesn't know any better. Around 51% percent of DR is Mulatto(euro/black)or mixed and 46% Black. The mixed population lives mainly in the North,also known as the Cibao, while the Blacks are from the South like Sammy Sosa. This guy is a believer of " one-droppism", hyperdecent". So forget about convincing this fool. It is like a religion, it is very hard to convert somebody from one into another.

Northern Dominicans aka Cibaeños know who they are, they don't need these idiots to tell them what are they or what they are. This idiot doesn't know jack about our history. There are ignorant people in every nationality, granted, but that doesn't give license to generalize an entire nationlaity based on the reactions of some people. I'm Dominican, nobody has ever called me Black, even in the redneck deep south, even thou I do have Black blood, due to the fact that my family is not racist and some intermarrired with dark mulattoes. Anyways, ignore these idiots,look how he is bad-mouthing white people. white people have done lots of evil, true, but this idiot wouldn't even be talking garbage thru this computer if it wasn't for this invention from the white man in the first place. That's just to tell you about his pea-sized brain. Some people's intellectual levels, in any race or ethnicity, is just Jurassic, just stay away from debating things like politics, religion or race with Neantherthals. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Platanogenius (talk • contribs) 01:55, May 25, 2007 (UTC)

You should familiarize yourself with Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. 64.131.205.111 02:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Getting back to what you stated. It is not Euro/black .. in the case of DR it is Spaniard/black and going by those numbers 46% black. so that would make 97% of people in DR having roots that were based in Africa. Some family members married dark mulattos? or did they marry blacks? lol? There is nothing wrong with being white. There is something wrong with the thinking of people who deny what they are and who they are. 64.131.205.111 02:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Einstein, when did I say anything anti-africanist here?? please point it out for me. I'm even against the CIA sources that some people wanted to place on the article here, the one about 73% mulatto,16% white and 11% black. Do you think that I'm going to be crazy enough to believe DR is only 11% Black?? I'll be too ashamed of saying such a thing. I agree on you on that one. 51% mulatto, 46% black, 2% white is the real demographic approximates of DR. Where is the " denial, anti-black, blaha blah and all the non-sense accusations that you are making by me saying that?? I stated an increase from 11% that somebody else place here from CIA to 46%, that's an increase of 35. So I am the anti-black, racist,denier???

I knew that you where going to throw the " Moor myth" about Spaniards, you are showing the radical afrocentric nut. What's next? you also believe in Van Sertima's book, that the Olmec heads of the Yucatan peninsula are Africans? or that snow is really black?? DNA studies in Spaniards show that less than 2% have Moor blood. It has been weed out,since the fall of Cordova in 1236, by the " limpieza de sangre" campaign of the christians. Spaniards are White as are the anglo-saxons,and the Irish. I'm not going into deep details about " Moors and Spain" with a radical Afrocentric nut, but going back to the article, we are not going to allow that the DR article is going to get hijack by radical afrocentric nut, nor eurocentric too. As you can see, I'm not eurocentric, 16% white to 2% white, do the math.

You think that you where going to deal with an ignoramus, but when it comes to history, you are kindergarten compared to me. You say " society" says that such words are offensive? wow, impresive answer. You still don't own Wikipedia and the English language, and you don't speak for " society", " society" has diverse views of the world. The article will be changed.Platanogenius 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius[reply]

You state all this statistics with no sources. What is up with that? Why don't you read this http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/portugal.html "From that time onwards, racial mixing in Portugal, as in Spain, and elsewhere in Europe which came under the influence of Moors, took place on a large scale. That is why historians claim that "Portugal is in reality a Negroid land," and that when Napoleon explained that "Africa begins at the Pyrenees," he meant every word that he uttered." 64.131.205.111 03:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

51% euro/black and 46% black,that is 46% afro decent and 51% afro-mixed decent,that makes it neutral, becuase Mulatto is a separate racial group, they view themselves different from the Blacks. Now, if you have a problem with that, which you certainly have, then that don't belong in this article. It is an accurate description of DR demographics, and CCNY-DS,KNOWS IT, and WILL agree and cooperate. You can go and take your radical afrocentrism to Maulana Karenga.

and example is the demographics that show about El Salvador in wiki, it says " 90% mestizo,9% white,1% indian". In my personal opinion, Indian might be more percentage, some mestizos might look " more indian than 50/50 or 40/60. Since Mestizos DUE view themselves different from Indians, why don't you go and invade the article and type " 91% of Salvadoreans are of amerindian decent". 90% amerindian-mixed population " doesn't equate to " amerinidan decent". that just creates confusion. So if other articles of latin american countries can word it like that? why not DR??Platanogenius 02:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius[reply]

Why don't you read this http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/portugal.html "From that time onwards, racial mixing in Portugal, as in Spain, and elsewhere in Europe which came under the influence of Moors, took place on a large scale. That is why historians claim that "Portugal is in reality a Negroid land," and that when Napoleon explained that "Africa begins at the Pyrenees," he meant every word that he uttered." I have no idea why you are talking about the el salvadoreans in that they don't have a serious relation to DR. The tainos were killed off, not like central american indians.