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– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Jolla (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• TuukkaH (talk · contribs)
• Ocexyz (talk · contribs)
• Bahaltener (talk · contribs)
• Dark Almöhi (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Secondary sources and Jolla itself say "Jolla OS is based on MeeGo". Jolla itself also says "Jolla OS is based on Mer". Technically, Jolla OS is based on Mer, and Mer is based on MeeGo. Mer is not very notable (yet) and could be characterised as a technical detail.

Should we trust the secondary sources and keep to them in the article intro? Or, should we make inferences that the secondary sources are incomplete, and keep to the more technically precise formulation?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've discussed the matter for two weeks now on the article talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Focus the discussion on the relevant policies and guidelines.

Opening comments by Ocexyz

(Intro)

Thank you for give me more time. I will be able to take part in discussion late on Friday, but it can happen that only on Saturday midday. Here is my statement with sources and text of sources. This has enlarged text but it will save your time on digging into sources, every of them has link so you can verify in person weather they are as here or different. The boldings of txt are by Ocexyz to pay your attention. I tried to make clear where is original text and where is my comment. Those texts has been cut, removed were parts not important for this discussion IMHO, so this is compilation.

0) My point

“Jolla OS is MeeGo based fork and use the core of the Mer which is the MeeGo core fork.” is reasonable, sourced, confirmed, factual and true, and comply Wikipedia standards.

Dispute overview is not clear enough, or not precise enough. Secondary sources and Jolla itself say "Jolla OS is based on MeeGo". Jolla itself also does not say "Jolla OS is based on Mer" (if I am wrong please provide link with confirmation in reliable source) it says "Jolla OS is based on the Mer core ". Technically, Jolla OS is based on the Mer core or the merproject, and Mer is fork of the MeeGo core and MeeGo project. Mer is not well known to end users, but quite notable for interested in vendors and known for the MeeGo and developers community. The Mer core could be characterised as a technical detail among others in the future Jolla OS.

1) The Jolla

There are no sources confirming that Jolla OS is “Based on the Mer Linux” exclusively and only, what is the point of opponents.

Jollla has declared several times by different persons their system is MeeGo and they, the Jolla company, is going to develop MeeGo ecosystem with former, current and future members of MeeGo community including: customers, software and system developers, mobile carriers, including both organizations (like companies-institutions-foundations etc.) and single p...

Ocexyz (talk) 22:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• NOTE: THE ABOVE 23,580 CHARACTER ENTRY WAS TRUNCATED AT 2,000 CHARACTERS AFTER AUTHOR FAILED TO VOLUNTARILY SHORTEN IT. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Bahaltener

In short I was saying that we know that Jolla is technically based on Mer Core, and they use Meego name in their announcements for familiarity (i.e. social/marketing) reasons. We have no sources to show that Jolla is based on Meego project as in contrast to the Mer project (and those are two separately managed projects now). I.e. on something from Meego that is not coming from Mer. Therefore for the sake of clarity and correctness the summary should say that Jolla is based on the Mer Core. I agree to the importance of highlighting that Jolla is historically connected to the Meego project (through Mer), while at the same time I consider it important to highlight that Mer and Meego are distinct now, and Jolla is not based technically on the the frozen project (Meego). So I can propose such phrasing: "Jolla OS is based on the Mer Core and continues the work started by the MeeGo project". Or even clearer it could sound: "Jolla OS is based on the Mer Core through which it continues the work started by the MeeGo project". These phrases will show the distinction and will highlight the relation at the same time.

Opening comments by Dark Almöhi

As already mentioned the dispute is about the expression "Jolla OS is based on Meego". In my opinion this is wrong, because the Meego project was closed last year. Meego was started from Nokia and Intel, however Nokia switched completely to Windows and Intel founded a new partnership with Samsung and started Tizen. Therefore you can see "Tizen" advertised on top and bottom on every Meego webpage. There you can also see the roadmap: https://meego.com/about/roadmaps which ends in 2011, however the planned Meego 1.3 was never finished. The last version is 1.2 and that is under "life-support", i.e. there are bug-fixes and minor updates, nothing else or new. Because Meego was shut down, the open source community took over the project. They forked the codebase, re-organized it and cut down the needed packages. This is called "Mer" or Mer Core. Most notable is that they don't provide a user-interface. Jolla said on twitter that they are "based on Meego" (note the missing version number); however, they also wrote that Jolla OS is "running on Mer", and moreover they openly stated ""#MeeGo is the name people know and love. #merproject is the core OS project name." Therefore it is obvious to me that they use the Meego brand only for advertisement purposes and to gain some attention, but not for technical reasons. My last attempt for a compromise was "Jolla is based on the Meego API", because Meego's API consists only of QT/QT mobile and OpenGL ES, which btw. is not used any longer in Intel's Tizen project. This attempt however, was not fruitful either. The response were some official statements from intel, stating that they are still committed to Meego. Which however is against the facts that the central Qt libraries are not used any longer in Tizen (and of course there are no new roadmaps/plans for Meego). Maybe the best and most neutral statement now would be to omit both, Meego and Mer and only write "based on a FOSS GNU/Linux and Qt and aimed on mobile/small devices", which I believe is what the Jolla people really mean when they say Meego. But of course, I don't have a source or proof for that. Thanks for reading and helping, your decision is very appreciated. I just want the discussion to end soon. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Jolla discussion (volume 1)

• Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this request. The dispute resolution noticeboard is informal and nonbinding. The compromise would be to do both. Mention that Jolla is based on Mer, citing a primary source, then write that Mer uses code from Meego, citing a secondary source. That seems to be the basic consensus on the talk page, User:Dark Almöhi supported "Jolla OS is based on Mer and continues the work which was started by MeeGo" and User:Bahaltener supported "Jolla OS is based on Mer Linux core and strongly rooted in the MeeGo project." Although primary sources should be used with caution because of neutrality concerns, they're fine for citing technical details. I'll wait for the opening statements to clarify the issue, but that's my grasp of the dispute so far.--SGCM (talk) 19:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it's primary sourced it is the kind of detail which doesn't belong in the lede. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because it's not been picked up by secondary sources and has insufficient weight. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it depends on how technical the details are. I've read the proposals for the lead in the talk page, and I agree that some are too elaborate. The lead should summarize the content of the body paragraphs, per the Manual of Style.--SGCM (talk) 01:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please be careful, the problem is not a long or short introduction, the problem is about the ambiguously used "Meego" term. According to my opinion that term is used in too many contexts with various meanings, therefore it is not suitable to be used at the beginning of a text, as the context there is missing. Thus I either don't want to use it at all, or narrow it down, e.g. by writing "Meego API", or I have to embed it in a context, i.e. explain the whole story. However, for the latter, the aforementioned "elaborateness" is needed. Hence, the article's lead-length is not the problem it is only the consequence of the problem, i.e. secondary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dark Almöhi (talk • contribs) 09:19, 19 August 2012‎ (UTC)[reply]

How about a short summary in the lead, followed by a more technical description in the body paragraphs? That's usually the convention.--SGCM (talk) 09:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with that, but the "short summary" so far was "based on Meego", which is in my opinion wrong or at least confusion, as that term is used for all sorts of things. I assume that anybody involved could agree on "based on FOSS GNU/Linux", which could fix the lead problem, but then the same discussion would start in the technical part and we would be back here in no time. After Ocexyz wrote his opening statement, you will maybe see the real problem. He just edited the article now, so hopefully he will write here soon, too. In general how do things work here? Could we somehow ask some Linux "guru" for his expertise, too? --Dark Almöhi (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Though I'm not a "guru", I might be competent enough to say a word here. Still, we should probably wait a bit more for Ocexyz before we begin. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:48, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, ok "guru" was maybe a too strong expression *g*, let's say it like: As long as you know that the Nokia's N9 Meego wasn't Meego you are ok ;-) No, just kidding, I see that you wrote some OpenBSD articles, that is a relief to know. My Jolla article on the German WP was finally deleted by an admin who mainly writes about medieval wars. But well, maybe just a "guru" with a strange hobby, I don't care any longer.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 21:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note: Me and Bahaltener share the same view. The problem is between us two and the remaining 2 participants. I will write my statement during the week-end, just waiting for the last feedback for the last try to find a compromise without help. Anyway, thanks for your time.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 00:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I pinged Ocexyz about his opening comments, and he responded that he would prefer to participate, though he has no time for it until the weekend. Given that the case is filed some time ago, quite a lot of discussion happened at the article's talk page since and at least some of disputants consider Ocexyz's input critical for the dispute resolution process, I would propose to close it now and give it a fresh start on Friday evening (August 24, 2012), when everybody have time to discuss the issue in interactive manner. Any objections? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No problem with me, but the discussion on the article's talk page more or less stopped. We have to wait for Ocexyz's input, so - even if you don't close, I don't expect lots of discussion. But do as you like, you are the boss ^^

Just a last note for the upcoming discussion. I googled around and the current problem is probably a bit similar to the previous Harmattan <> Meego difference. Here is an small post about that: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529073&postcount=14 There are two POVs, developer view and enduser/marketing view, I think our problem is rooted here, too. Ok enough now, cu on Friday, have a nice week. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 21:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, no problem with me either. --TuukkaH (talk) 08:02, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We could close the case, but that would mean that all the participants will have to restate their opening comments. I wonder if there's an option to put it on hold?--SGCM (talk) 00:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You mean closing means deleting and open up a new,empty one? That I didn't know, I thought it is as you suggested some kind of a "on hold" function. In any case everybody will wait for Ocexyz there are only 2 days left until Friday now. I wouldn't worry too much about it --Dark Almöhi (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now that all the opening comments have been posted, it seems that all four parties agree that the lead should mention both Mer and Meego. The dispute is over how the lead should be worded. Would "Jolla uses the Mer core, which is based on the Meego project" for the lead be acceptable to all parties? Let's avoid mentioning whether Jolla is Meego-based or not, and instead, leave it at saying that the Mer project originates from the Meego project. Technical details can be expanded upon in the body paragraphs.--SGCM (talk) 08:54, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, because the Mer core is just a technical detail, the lowest layer and technical one only. Recently an iPhone was pictured to have the Samsung battery. Will you say because of this technical detail that iPhone is Samsung based or Samsung mobile? I think no. More or less this is your proposal. Following this logic we could mentions some dozen if not hundreds names of the same level as Mer is together with Mer (including eg GSM ect.), but it does not make any sense at all. I don't question Jolla OS is using or is based on the Mer core - it is I who have put this for the first time into the article content. If you would say "the operating system based/using FAT32" then not necessary everybody will understand you mean "Windows" right?

MeeGo is superior quality of Jolla OS then the Mer core which in fact is just more developed part of MeeGo. The company use in sources clearly "MeeGo based" and to this can be added a technical detail of the Mer core, this is logical and source based. But not in opposite way IMHO. Also we can't hide that the whole ecosystem by Jolla is based on MeeGo. They build worldwide MeeGo ecosystem but their mobile is only Mer based? Why? This is confusing for most of Wikipeida users. And it is against what sources say also. That would not be any consensus. This could be "Jolla OS is a Linux based on MeeGo and Mer projects" or something. MeeGo is main aspect of the Jolla OS and the Jolla company, just it was formed to continue MeeGo development and use it's opportunities, just can't be omitted. The relation is {MeeGo[Mer(Mer core)]) but not {Mer core[MeeGo]). Wikipedia is not for half-truths IMHO. The consensus can't be against facts, can we agree with this? Ocexyz (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Ocexyz, is it possible to re-factor your opening statement to be more succinct? Currently it's rather lengthy. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• IRWolfie, I have tried hardly a few days already, but discussion is mainly about respecting sources vs. editor's POV, so at this moment I think not - others need to read this to get understand the problem, what is not easy. Otherwise we will not make any progress, as so far. Then it can be moved to the "Jolla talk page" or something. Ocexyz (talk) 11:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How about a compromise. Let's use a broad statement like "Jolla is derived from the Meego and Mer projects" in the lead, and leave the technical details in the body paragraphs. The lead should avoid using the word "x-based" to describe Jolla, whether Meego-based or Mer-based, which is ambiguous, to sidestep the entire dispute over the technicalities.--SGCM (talk) 11:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1) How about "Jolla OS Linux came from the Meego and Mer projects"?

2) As we are discussing and you are experienced I'd like to ask: do my arguments and sources as above used are with or against Wikipedia standards? Have I confirmed enough to add to the article (later, not in the led) that Jolla OS is MeeGo based and Mer based of course? And that Jolla is going to build MeeGo ecosystem, but not Mer ecosystem. Note: it does not negate that Jolla OS is also Mer based! I'd like to ask if my approach considering the way I confirm facts upon sources is correct in the Jolla case?

3) My aim is to provide the best possible knowledge about Jolla, Jolla OS and Jolla's products. I have provided materials in my initial statements as I'd like to explain why I think that MeeGo is behind and around all current Jolla actions and plans IMHO.

4) I'd like also to provide all interested current MeeGo background, in good faith. MeeGo still is under development, and as MeeGo, not in frames of Mer, not in frames of Jolla.

No Meego is not any longer in development, see the old roadmap at meego.com. The only thing you can claim is that Meego's idea are living on through Mer, but they have their own name, and are doing a good job now. I don't see any reason to hide their fine work by using the out-dated Meego brand. With the same logic, you might want to use the even older names Moblin or Mameo. A few differences, but more or less the same, so why not use it? The obvious answer to that question is: Because these projects are discontinued, too. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 18:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

5) Additional factor is one of last Jolla tweets, which can be treated as further "MeeGo-based" confirmation. Jolla asked about "support of the same QML components, paths, folders ect. than Nokia did for Nokia N9, so developers can repackage apps ease", has answered that "use of QML including Harmattan components is encouraged", but "the details of the SDK will be shown later". Consequences of this can be using in Jolla OS the same structure like the MeeGo instance Harmattan, or it's elements what is IMHO more probable then cloning it. The common element will be again MeeGo, however Harmattan is not pure MeeGo but MeeGo instance only. Ocexyz (talk) 13:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From what I've read, all the parties agree on the same facts (Jolla uses the Mer core, which originates from the MeeGo, and that Jolla is a successor to the MeeGo project). The dispute is over the wording of the article, and how best to express the claims made by sources. The problems arise, not from the reliable sources per se, but from the ambiguity of the word "based" in the context of the lead. The best solution is to avoid the word entirely. "Jolla OS Linux came from the Meego and Mer projects" is a good compromise. Perhaps "Jolla OS Linux stems from the Meego and Mer projects" might work as well.--SGCM (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would note, that I don't see any claim that Jolla uses something from Meego outside Mer, which makes overall dispute somehow weird. IMO the only reason to mention Meego in the lede is to explain Mer's background and status, which may be better served by the explanatory footnote. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the reasoning behind the dispute is that Jolla officially markets itself as a successor to the Meego project, even if it is via Mer.--SGCM (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am affraid you don't get it. Mer is the project which one of its goal have to become MeeGo 2.0. Jolla created own system and described it as "MeeGo based with the Mer core". The merproject itself is not a full Linux distribution so Jolla's Linux can't be Mer Linux for this reason. Mer is a part for developers and vendors, MeeGo is the whole system which contains the core, and it can be used Mer core (and will be). Yes Jolla is building their marketing on MeeGo, as the Jolla company has been established as the foundators has "seen the unused bussiness opportunities in MeeGo". The dispute started as around "to exclude or not to exclude MeeGo" as the Jolla OS is the Mer Linux.

Hurmola and other ex-Nokia staffers launched Jolla and have announced plans to release a MeeGo-based device by the end of 2012. The startup has so far divulged few other concrete details, but previously stated "Jolla Ltd. has been developing a new smartphone product and the OS since the end of 2011. The OS has evolved from MeeGo OS using Mer Core and Qt with Jolla technology including its own brand new UI." My opponents claimed the Mer core is full Linux distribution and completely separated from MeeGo project, what is not true IMHO.

Not acceptable according to me would be to exclude MeeGo and leave Mer, as MeeGo is linux and Jolla's ecosytem, while Mer is the core - set of libraries creating Linux kernel + hardware implementation on various platforms by different chip manufactureres like ARM and Intel microprocessors. Whatmore Jolla is actively contributing to Mer. This is a cooperation not a rivalisation. Discussion is rooted in weak reaserches on subjects which are MeeGo, Mer and Jolla IMHO.

I think "Jolla OS is mobile Linux which came from the Meego and Mer projects" is acceptable. What now is my proposal for consensus. Later in articla any details can be developed.

Yes, discussion is a bit weird, also when opponents do not provide any sources for confirmation. I wanted to show as clearly as possible what is what and why, and not to delete not confirmed by any sources speculations which in my opinion would be legitimate as after ^{[citation needed]} action . So wanted to show all possible arguments. And one day a Finnish person has taken us here to point proper Wikipedia policies to follow. Ocexyz (talk) 19:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you replying to me or Czarkoff? Anyhow, it seems to me that we're nearing a compromise. Are you fine with "Jolla is a mobile Linux-based operating system which stems from the MeeGo and Mer projects"? Slightly reworded, but similar to your proposal, and the proposals of the other parties.--SGCM (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but no. Because "came from" or "stems" sounds weired to me, too, as if two projects were merged into one, like one is the father and the other one is the mother project. But that would be false, as it is simply that Mer is Meego's heir. Somebody may call it Meego 2.0 unofficially, yes, but officially the Meego OS project ended, plus several changes. Hence the new name "Mer" for its successor. We could write Jolla stems from Mer which stems from Meego, but I assume that would be too complicated for a lead, wouldn't it?

Replying to your comment from 18:19:

Yes and the question is if we should follow marketing in a wikipedia article. I only want to mentioned the technical side, because I don't see much sense in paraphrasing advertisement claims for an encyclopedia article. However, we also have a section about corporate affairs. I just got the idea to write "Jolla OS is based on FOSS Linux" in the lead, then Mer in the technical part, and Meego in the corporate affairs under a subsection marketing / ecosystem etc. I wouldn't bother in that case. How about that? --Dark Almöhi (talk) 18:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would "is related to" be acceptable? As in "Jolla is a mobile Linux-based operating system which is related to the MeeGo and Mer projects." Then the technical details will be covered in the body paragraphs, not the lead, as you've proposed.--SGCM (talk) 19:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm "related" ... sounds very weak. If we cannot find a better solution, ok, but it sounds like "related to Unix System V" to me. Instead of such a weak relation, I would omit it then completely. I would only keep it, if it is not explained later in the article in a marketing / technical section.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it is important that this project is marketed as a new generation of Meego, this should be said explicitly. Still, as I see from the sources, the term Meego is used only to facilitate recognition of the project's base platform. Thus the straightforward policy-based way to address Mer/Meego issue is to drop any mention of "Meego" in the lede itself and leave a footnote explaining the reason why some sources refer to the project as being Meego-based. Leaving Meego in the lede makes the article misleading by implying that some code was taken directly from official Meego repository. This is WP:V in action. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to it. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a marketing tool, it need to concentrate on facts. Factual background - Jolla uses Mer. Nothing was said about them using Meego project. Therefore the factual side needs to be mentioned in the introduction. As a compromise it could say - based on Mer which continues Meego. -- Bahaltener (talk) 06:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excluding any mention of Meego or Mer is an option. But I'm not sure how the parties of this dispute will respond to that proposal.--SGCM (talk) 19:04, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Dmitrij D. Czarkoff: yes. And there is no any confirmation it will NOT have any MeeGo code. Besides of the code there are also rules set by MeeGo project which are taken directly and called above by DA as "MeeGo API". Marketing is only one aspect. IT aspects will follow both MeeGo and Mer projects, not only Mer. Mer core technology is low lewel term like GSM technology for all mobiles, but it is not a mobile. By leaving Mer and dropping MeeGo the article would suggest this product has got nothin common with MeeGo while this is not true. The Jolla smartphone is an element of MeeGo ecosystem not the Mer. The perhaps options would be to use "Jolla OS is mobile Linux fork came from the MeeGo and Mer projects" or "Jolla OS is mobile Linux fork came from the MeeGo/Mer projects". Sometimes it is used "MeeGo/Mer".

I think dropping neither MeeGo nor Mer is acceptable, both are elements of this puzzle. Ocexyz (talk) 19:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@all, about: This is WP:V in action. Yes, that is the point to consider. There are no sources that confirms "Jolla OS comes from Mer" sources says "Jolla OS use the Mer core" this is significant difference. And there are sources says "Jolla is MeeGo based" - that is why I claim that excluding MeeGo is exactly against WP:V. Also Jolla has confirmed this "We use Meego" in Twiter. What DA propose are his speculations about MeeGo and Mer relations, with full respect. Ocexyz (talk) 19:35, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please re-read my opening statement. Your sources are invalidated by Jolla's other statement, that they are "running on Mer" and ""#MeeGo is the name people know and love. #merproject is the core OS project name." Using sth because of "know and love" but in reality running on Mer is simply marketing and in the strict sense simply wrong --Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Jolla's last comment, when sb asked about if they are based on the never released Meego 1.3 codebase:

Quote Jolla: We are basing on #merproject core which has been developed since MeeGo project stopped work.

https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/237124152283262976

It was mentione above that "primary sources are good for technical details. Jolla dirictly has declared "our OS is MeeGo based with using the Mer core". If I have understood correctly DA would like to treat Jolla OS as developed on Mer OS and not to use MeeGo in the article. There is no such a possibility. There are only a few sources where Mer is mentioned and plenty of sources where MeeGo is confirmed. Wikipedia can't be used for promoting Mer purposes, that would be the case. Ocexyz (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I just don't want it in either the lede (because it could be understood technically), nor in the technical part. But I would not bother if you write about the "Meego ecosystem" in the "cooperate affairs" section in a "marketing" subsection, or whatever you want to call it. Edit: I just made my last idea bold so people can see it easier. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is how a reliable source has been phrasing the relationship between Jolla, Mer, and Meego: "One source Jolla is looking to for talent are contributors to the Linux-based Mer Project, the core operating system of the MeeGo fork Jolla has chosen to build upon" from ZD Net [1]. Perhaps we can use that as an inspiration for how to word the lead?--SGCM (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this is a reliable source stating that Jolla is based on Mer, not on any other Meego port. That's why excluding Meego goes in line with WP:V (and keeping it doesn't). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is, some reliable sources exclude Mer and focus on Meego. Like this article on PC Magazine or this one on Slashgear.--SGCM (talk) 20:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There would be a problem, if these sources contained the word "Mer", but attributed Jolla to Meego. On contrary, PC Magazine says: "Last month, it was revealed that the new MeeGo OS device will incorporate Mer Core and Qt, as well as a new user interface", which translates to "uses Mer<ref group="note">Most sources call the base platform by its historical name "Meego" instead of specifying the name of the less known descendent.</ref>". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute is over whether the lead should mention that Mer is derived from the Meego project. As most of the reliable sources mention Meego along with Mer, I think there is a convincing argument to include it in the lead, per the reliable sources. I don't think it's necessary to relegate it to a note.--SGCM (talk) 21:41, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This inspiration proposed above something what I have already proposed "smartphones with the mobile Linux operating system, the MeeGo fork using the core of Mer which is based on the previous work of the MeeGo project." what could be transformed to following: "Jolla OS is a mobile Linux operating system, the MeeGo fork built upon the Linux-based Mer Project" - how about this? The same reliable source should be an inspiration also with following: "Those who make the cut will form part of its target of having 100 Finnish staff by the end of 2012, the soft deadline for the launch of its smartphone based on a MeeGo OS fork." Ocexyz (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objections to it. Seems reasonable.--SGCM (talk) 21:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make sure I understand you right: do you know any sources claiming that Jolla is based on something different from Mer and in-house UI? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but there is meritoric mistake in your thinking. How can I upload a picture here, advice me please and you will understand it hope IOcexyz (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Mer is the core distribution, not a base platform, only raw material to built the platform. Mer itself is not a Linux distribution. And second: every bit of the Mer is developed MeeGo, in every aspect. eg: when Ford make order to sub-supplier XYZ for seats, and then mount it in to a car, then this car by complying Ford standards and by saying it still remain Ford but not XYZ.

You asked about sources omitting Mer, there are such a sources. But this is because Mer is only a technical detail. Claiming that Mer is not included to Jolla MeeGo would be a falsification. Ocexyz (talk) 21:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please read my initial statement point 2) the mer - so you will understand better relation - in fact Mer is a kind of environment in community to sustain MeeGo, for trademark reasons and for cut several libraries and for approved policy do not use MeeGo name now. But claiming it is not related to MeeGo is just a mistake, and technical one. Ocexyz (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not in relation of Meego and Mer (or Meego and Jolla). The problematic aspect is that you are mixing marketing and technical aspects in one sentence, which is misleading. Technically Jolla is based on Mer, not on Meego old source base. From marketing standpoint it is successor of Meego. These two facts should not be included in the same phrase. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "Meego-based", by itself, is misleading, but I don't think anyone is advocating that position anymore. Wording similar to that which is used by the reliable sources, like it "uses the Mer core, which is a fork of the Meego project," might be acceptable to all parties.--SGCM (talk) 22:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, because it still makes the relation between these three hidden. Mer is not a fork, it is continued development of Meego, as well as Meego itself was continued development of Moblin and Maemo. Jolla is a custom distribution of Mer, which makes a free ride on well-known Meego trademark. You may safely replace the words "Maemo", "Meego", "Mer" and "Jolla" with "Multix", "Unix", "Linux" and "Debian" respectively, and you'll have the exactly same relation. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A fork is continued development.--SGCM (talk) 22:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A fork is development alongside the main project. The project to resurrect another project isn't normally called a fork, as no distinct product is developed. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think this discussion is getting bogged down in semantics and technicalities in the same way that Talk:Jolla was. We need to reach a compromise, one that accurately represents the reliable sources and one that everyone can agree on. If it's really necessary, let's just directly quote from the source so that we won't have to argue over the wording.--SGCM (talk) 22:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that one may call a text that doesn't eliminate the problem a compromise. In effect, the question behind this particular dispute can be answered either "yes" or "no" ("Jolla is based on Mer" or "Jolla is based on Meego"), and the abomination that is currently in the lede, as well as those proposed above, are worse then any of these answers. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Dimitri I'll try better formatting text.

Source you asked for http://www.arcticstartup.com/2012/07/13/jolla-mobile-picks-up-the-pieces-of-meego-to-build-and-release-a-new-phone

"We want to inherit the best elements from MeeGo," says Hurmola. And there is none a word about Mer. Ocexyz (talk) 22:43, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I asked for source that says that something from Meego, but not from Mer is in the Jolla. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let's just quote from the source: "ZDNet has written that Jolla uses the "Linux-based Mer Project, the core operating system of the MeeGo fork Jolla has chosen to build upon." Would quoting from the reliable source make all the parties of the dispute happy? This way, there's no fighting over the wording.--SGCM (talk) 22:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My answer: "no way". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out the absurdity of a dispute over the wording of a single sentence in the lead being several times longer than the actual article. Do you have any Wikipedia policy related objections to quoting from the source? It's acceptable per WP:RS and WP:V.--SGCM (talk) 22:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is unacceptable per WP:MOSINTRO, WP:V and WP:RECENT: we shouldn't quote sources in misleading way. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with above, against standard. I'd rather propose somthing like this "Jolla OS is mobile Linux, the MeeGo fork built upon Linux-based the Mer Project". I'd like a compromise have sense, so to be applicable anywhere. And I am afraid if after all my too long statemant Dark A still argue MeeGo is only a marketing, then most probably we will be back..... :( Ocexyz (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is factually wrong, because Jolla aren't creating any forks. They are using a fork - i.e. Mer. Precision is important and any obfuscated and confusing summaries aren't acceptable. -- Bahaltener (talk) 06:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What Jolla is doing is exactly creating MeeGo fork, especially in area of UI. Otherwise this UI would not be compatible with other MeeGo fork which is the Mer core distribution. For the user it will be a new UI, but technically it will be MeeGo fork. And whole OS will be MeeGo fork. Exactly precision is important and any obfuscated and confusing summaries aren't acceptable. Ocexyz (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MOSINTRO allows quotations for controversial materials in the lead: "The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be supported by an inline citation." The fact that this dispute has been going on for weeks is evidence that it is controversial and "likely to be challenged." I don't see how WP:RECENT applies, and there's nothing misleading about the quote. It's a direct quote from the article.--SGCM (talk) 23:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)\[reply]

Honestly, I dislike the use of quotations as a matter of personal taste, but we have to find some sort of resolution that all the parties of the dispute can agree on. Quotations are allowed for claims that are controversial per policy, but usually as a last resort and as long as it is properly attributed per WP:V.--SGCM (talk) 23:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Jolla discussion (volume 2)

Alright, let's go over everyone's POVs on the dispute, and try to reach a compromise starting from there:

• The lead should mention both Mer and MeeGo, but emphasize that Jolla is based on the MeeGo ecosystem. (supported by Ocexyz and TuukkaH)
• The lead should mention both Mer and Meego, but emphasize that Jolla is based on Mer, and that Meego is mostly marketing. (supported by Bahaltener and Dark Almöhi)
• Exclude any mention of MeeGo at all, except as a note. (supported by Czarkoff)

So, how do we compromise? Remember, as per WP:RS, the wording must be based on how the reliable sources present the information, and not how we personally view the relationship between Jolla, Mer, and MeeGo. Perhaps we need a DRN on this DRN. :P --SGCM (talk) 23:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea, but: " "Jolla OS is mobile Linux, it has evolved from MeeGo OS using Mer Core and Qt with Jolla technology including its own brand new UI." as this is quotations. There are about over 250 sources I ought to look for a proper quotation... I am demotivated, but only a bit.... ;) Ocexyz (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@SGCM: I once proposed: Jolla OS is based on Mer and continues the work which was started by MeeGo. But it was refused by Ocexyz.

Furthermore you missed my proposal from above (too much text I guess ^^): No reference of Meego or Mer in the lede, then Meego in a "marketing" part and Mer in the technical section.

In general I see a problem with using that wikipedia rule, because we don't have many "reliable sources". Everybody is using Meego, then I visit meego.com and I dont find anything about Jolla or even a roadmap after 2011. That is a "bit" strange imo. The semantics are simply mixed everywhere and we are trying to get that straight. Hence, I doubt that you could solve our problem by using sources, because these sources are the very problem. I liked the fork-idea first, but Czarkoff is right, too. The original meego is not developed any further, thus it is not a fork. This is also part of the problem. Because there is no "real" Meego 2.0, people use the term Meego instead of Mer which is Meego's successor, thus it is "kind of Meego 2.0". You could use that in a casual conversation, but it does not fit the requirements for an encyclopedia imo. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 23:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not exactly exclude any mention of Meego, but to decouple marketing and technical standpoint. Eg.:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product, equipped with Mer project's operating system^[a] and custom user interface during 2012.

<...>

Notes

I'm not very good at writing lede sections, but I hope this draft helps to communicate my idea. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 23:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks OK to me. -- Bahaltener (talk) 06:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great work, that works as a compromise. There should be a definite article "the" before development and Linux, and "it's" is a contraction, not a possessive, which is "its."--SGCM (talk) 23:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. (Sorry for grammar — I'm dyslexic non-native English speaker, so I have to hurry not to get stuck in edit conflict.) — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, thanks for the work and good night :) --Dark Almöhi (talk) 00:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Selfedit: I am sorry I have written For me it is OK. thx and night, will be put into article by Monday night, but not tomorrow. It was great pleasure to meet you! :) Ocexyz (talk) 00:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC) but that was the mistake as I was quite tired already after several hours. This part is for me OK: >>>Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product, equipped with Mer project's <<< But in fact can't agree with last words, because, the Mer is not an operating system now yet, this is not the full Linux distribution what your proposal suggest - this is against WP:V and WP:SOURCES. Also there is no customer user interface by the Mer WP:SOURCES at all. Only the MeeGo UI/UX fork described for easier understanding as Jolla's own UI. There is no source which would state this way - "operating system" used here is ambiguous and suggesting to reader something what does not exist. I also have mentioned above already that the Mer this is not any Linux distribution so far. However the goal of the project is being MeeGo 2.0, but now only "the core distribution" is what is (1) confirmed by the Mer site and several loud and clear statements of them (2) declared by Jolla with "using the Mer core" or "based on the merproject" (3) clear and not ambiguous. The Mer in this Jolla context mentioned as "operating system" is strong belief and strongly supported of Dark Almöhi and Bahaltener but it is only the opinion not the fact. We are obligated for WP:NPOV Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it. The article can't be biased to promote the Mer project as the full operating system when in fact and by confirmed sources it is not WP:SOURCES. Also WP:VALID While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. There is no any hidden secret the Mer Linux as full linux ditribution with complete UI, only the Mer core, which is more Linux kernel with some basic libraries. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit them where including them would unduly legitimize them, and otherwise describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world. Also I have decided to say this as in consequence in future edits it could happen that wherever MeeGo would appear it would be long discussion "but we have agreed this in fact is the Mer operating system". But this is the Mer core WP:SOURCES. Dark Almöhi claims the Mer has the text console so this is Linux operating system full distribution. But no normal customer would be able to make any single call or SMS check having only Linux text console with prompt, so s/he would have to call libraries one by one and define a phone number as a parameter for libraries, etc. etc. So we can assume we have agreed the first part but the last part have not been solved. Sorry, but I see no other solution, to avoid future problems. Ocexyz (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a terminology problem, but actually Mer is as much an operating system as are Linux, Android, Maemo, Moblin and MeeGo. I see no reason to treat equal entities (Meego and Mer) differently, and to mislead readers by such treatment, and all sources I see say that Mer is operating system, or more precisely "core distribution" (which is a strict subset of "operating system"). BTW there are quite a lot of operating systems that don't have UI shipped by default. DOS is an operating system, though it doesn't come with GUI by default. DD-WRT also is an operating system, though no GUI was ever built for it. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:08, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, well we have a direct source from Jolla stating that they are "running on Mer". Your point about the missing UI is correct, however that is already corrected in the following subordinate clause, mentioning the custom UI. Would it be ok to add "core" to the "operating system" ? It would be like this:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product, running Mer project's core operating system^[a] paired with their own custom user interface, during 2012.

<...>

Notes

Changes are in italics. If not then we have to define what an "operating system" is. To me it is - you quote me correctly there - also only a text console. The UI is an extra imo. Even though it is very, very nice, I don't see the possibility to bend the definition of the term "operating system" as much as to include an UI in the case of mobile devices. As long as you can operate a system it is a operating system, no matter if it is done by text console or graphics and no matter if it is running on an old mainframe from the 70ies or a brand new mobile phone. Thus I don't think that the "core" in "core operating system" is needed, but I could agree to it if you demand it.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 09:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Agree. I removed the word "on" in "running on Mer project's core operating system" from your draft though. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a native speaker myself, I just used it because the Jolla people used it in that statement:

@luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes. https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/235046019824508928

Thus I thought it is correct English. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Software runs on device or another piece of software, but not vice versa. Still, I don't particularly like the word "running" here. "Using" or "equipped with" may be better. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After some more thinking I can suggest the following wording:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product (with their own custom user interface running on Mer project's operating system)^[a] in 2012.

<...>

Notes

1. ^ After Nokia discontinued the development of MeeGo, [[Mer (operating system)|]] project was started as community-based effort to continue the development.

I believe this is neither misleading, nor contradictory to sources. The problem of people not knowing that any Linux distribution is an operating system is solved with link to Linux distribution. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I'm late to discussing the compromise proposals. Since the ZDNet article appeared, there's now a secondary source that mentions Mer (one paragraph, the rest about MeeGo), but I still wouldn't mention it in the lead as it's a technical detail and this a company article. As you see here, mentioning Mer causes creep of technical stuff such as the Linux kernel vs. the Linux operating system distinction. In conclusion, the less technical the lead the better, thus I'd prefer the first version by Dark Almöhi above to this latest one by Czarkoff. I'd even propose something like this: "-- continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo, in coordination with the Mer project."--TuukkaH (talk) 11:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note: company focus of article is a perfectly valid point, but the very existence of this dispute shows that the MeeGo/Mer issue deserves mention. FWIW this company is currently only known for development of mobile platform, thus the platform itself is a defining characteristic of this company. Once the platform receives the notice by some stable name ("Jolla OS" is a placeholder as of current coverage), the article should be split. BTW, per WP:PRODUCT this article should actually be repurposed to cover OS, not the company behind it. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 11:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that something becomes notable by some Wikipedians having a dispute over it. Based on the reliable sources, my interpretation is that Jolla is known for continuing the work on the MeeGo ecosystem as a viable alternative to Android, iOS and Windows Phone ecosystems (a market perspective as opposed to a technology perspective). Sorry, I also don't understand how WP:PRODUCT could say that an article content shouldn't match its title: the secondary sources very much talk about Jolla business and not Jolla OS. --TuukkaH (talk) 12:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As already stated in the talk page some days ago, the term "ecosystem" is also very broad, undefined and ambiguous. What does it really mean? Meego also included a strictly defined Meego UI, but Jolla will use their own UI. Do you want to exclude the Meego UI then from the term "Meego ecosystem" in the Jolla article? If you want to write a well-defined, logic entry for an encyclopedia then the easiest thing is to bury the Meego brand and let it rest in peace. In the same way as Moblin or Mameo are not used any longer. The only thing which is still actively developed and used is Mer. Nothing else. For example check out that talk in Poland at SmartDevCon:

"How to develop user experiences with QML for Mer" https://smartdevcon.eu/content/en/timur-kristof-32.html

Nobody mentions Meego. As said above I would agree to mention it in some marketing/ecosystem subsection in the cooperate affairs section, but I don't want to see such fluffy terms in the lede or the technical part. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 13:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems clear from this line of discussion that there are people willing to work – instead of a "fluffy", general interest article about Jolla the business – on a new technogy article, say Jolla's technology, Jolla's operating system or Jolla OS. In that world, it might be that nobody mentions Meego or 'ecosystem'. --TuukkaH (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The whole Jolla story is about MeeGo. And Jolla clearly state this. WP:SOURCE If there will be any sources which confirms Jolla does not know what they are working on then we can try to use them. So far any conference somewhere wherever is irrelevant for Jolla's work. Note the conference is sponseored by Microsoft, which have interest in killing MeeGo as competitive system for Windows. COnflict of interests. We can't "burry MeeGo" because Dark A just want it. The most of sources and reliable says about MeeGo. Also CEO, COO, and the chairman of the company says: we develop MeeGo based smartphone. So because Dark A. want to "burry MeeGo" and promote Mer then WP:SOURCES and WP:V are no longer valid? Don't think so. Any sources saying "Jolla has dropped MeeGo for the Mer"? If you don't have any such sources then this is pure speculation against confirmed facts and sources. Unrelated conference to be a proof? How? Are we in wikipedia or in Harry Potter Matrix? ;) Ocexyz (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocexyz (talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see no proof that Jolla story is about MeeGo as opposed to the whole path of Maemo, Moblin, MeeGo and now Mer. I see no source that states that. The commodity use of the word "MeeGo" to briefly reference the whole chain doesn't verify the particular viewpoint you insist on. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Ocexyz: I already wrote my souce above. It is not me that recognized that Meego is a non active project, it is Jolla themselves. Here again as repetition: We are basing on #merproject core which has been developed since MeeGo project stopped work. https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/237124152283262976

"stopped work" is similar to buried, canceled, finished, closed, whatever, take the verb you prefer. These are not my words, these are Jolla's words.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 15:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@ all. Dark A. has written above: >>>I am not a native speaker myself, I just used it because the Jolla people used it in that statement: @luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes. https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/235046019824508928 Thus I thought it is correct English. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC) <<< BUT the whole source says as following: "Luis Soeiro ‏@luissoeiro @JollaMobile Are you mer-based? If so, congratulations, but please try to keep the user free from locked bootloaders or locked roms. #meego Jolla Jolla ‏@JollaMobile @luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes." Please note Jolla has confirmed "#merproject core" so upon WP:SOURCE WP:V this ought to be used. And core is significant what I claim this for several weeks already at jolla talk page and also here. See my statement and see bolded core. It is hard not to notice that IMHO. Again WP:SOURCE there is no confirmation of used "Mer operting system" but "#merproject core". If this is obvious to understand this opereting system the use of source is valid. So:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product (which use the core of the operating system from the Mer project together with other technologies) in 2012.

<...>

Notes

I also propose to remove footnote because this is described below in the article and more precise, so there is no need to double it here, also this is not about Jolla story. And core is significant what I claim this for several weeks already at jolla talk page and also here. See my statement and see bolded core. It is hard not to notice that IMHO. Again WP:SOURCE there is no confirmation of used "Mer operting system" but "#merproject core". Ocexyz (talk) 13:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Core" is a word used to indicate that this operating system isn't supposed to be presented to end users with no modifications. The same meaning is used within Archlinux, where the setup utility installs operating system from "Core" repository, allowing user to install packages from other repositories once OS is installed. I would also note that there is a Fedora (operating system) Linux distribution, which referred to its installation CD (containing the whole users desktop, as complete as default package of any Maemo-based device) as Fedora Core. The bottom line: the word "core" is commonly used to indicate that the operating system it is added to the name of is supposed to be extended with other applications to become fully usable.

So it is probably good time to stop insisting on the superficial significance of the word "core" in case of Mer (operating system) (notice the name of the article BTW). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So this is quite valid and relevant as shows that it is only the part of the picture what gives benefit of precise description. Yes or no? Without it somebody can think that here it is supposed to be presented to end users with no modifications. Right? So this word prevent ambiguity right? Hence is reasonable. Ocexyz (talk) 14:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Operating system is not the software that is supposed to be presented to end users with no modifications — it is just an environment to run user's software. Mer is more functional then DOS, so if describing the latter as operating system doesn't mislead readers, describing the former in the same way wouldn't confuse anyone too. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mer is not able to run itslf any user software, it is only primer on hardware to attach the layer which will enable this. How about this:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product (using the Mer project together with other technologies) in 2012.

<...>

Notes

so we could avoid weather this is core or anything else, and everybody interested in could go to further. MeeGo deletion is not acceptable. WP:NOP WP:CONSENSUS]] Ocexyz (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References for "Mer is not able to run itslf any user software"? It can't run vim and mutt? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:17, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In context of smartphone? How? You have only touchscreen so monitor but no keyboard. You can run it while using stationary comp, that is right. But we are in smartphone context here. From history and recent statemants that screnn will be larger then 3.5' we can expect no keyboard. So the answer in this particular case is negative. Right or have I missed anything? You can attach anything via USB or BT as those are above. In general 99,9% common humans can't, even if you would find a way now. Mer is only tool for development, not a system for using it. Ocexyz (talk) 15:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as "operating system in context of smartphone". There are operating systems and other software, and Mer falls in "operating systems" category.

BTW, if we apply your statement to Android, it would also not be an operating system, as it needs launcher and dialer apps (and related services) to be usable on smartphones. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please see smartphone operating system. Regarding Android, it includes the so-called stock apps such as a launcher and a dialer. --TuukkaH (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I notice that Mer as listed in smartphone operating system as one of them, so what? Regarding Android: do I understand you right, that the smartphone with Android and no dialer doesn't run OS? Sorry, I missed the point. Anyway, the stock dialer, launcher and other software are just one of optional repositories, they are not part of Android strictly speaking (the device with custom launcher and dialer is still running Android). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just as a funny side-note: I recently saw a posting on a Mer discussion board. There they just announced that emacs is running now on Mer, too. I had a good laugh .. emacs ^^ They stressed, that Mer's emacs package however, is only optional, and not part of the Core distribution by default as it was with Meego core. A wise decision imo ^^ --Dark Almöhi (talk) 15:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, actually the ZDNet article explicitly refers to Mer as a core operating system. So, per WP:V this wording is warranted. As there is no source that would state that Mer is not an operating system, per WP:NPOV and per WP:NOR it must be referred to as operating system, so I believe we can forget the whole "Mer is not OS" thing and move on. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify - Jolla is not using Meego operating system in any way. It's factually incorrect and can't be placed in the article. Mer is a distribution, but it specifically omits hardware araptation/Linux kernel and user interface. So strictly speaking you can't say it's an operating system (since OS requires a kernel). You can call it a meta system, i.e. it's an instrument for OS creators. I.e. for Jolla to make an OS, they need to take Mer, add a kernel with drivers for particular device (handset), add their interface, add some additional user application if they want and etc. All that in the end will constitute the Jolla OS. However all that will have nothing to do with the Meego project. We are back to the square 1. Jolla are not based on Meego. -- Bahaltener (talk) 18:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Mer doesn't include kernel in its repo doesn't mean it is not an operating system — it uses Linux kernel as well as all other Linux distributions, and as well as most other distributions doesn't keep a copy of kernel. The same is true for Archlinux, which doesn't have kernel in its repo, but still is an operating system; same is true for Linux From Scratch, which includes nothing but still is an operating systems.

The whole thing of "operating system vs. Linux" is discussed to death in different places of Wikipedia with a resulting convention to call distributions "operating systems". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed resolution

I propose to split the Jolla article into:

• Jolla mobile (the current name says it is the name the company is currently referred by in most sources) — an article about the company with no mention of Mer (operating system) in the lede and
• Jolla OS — an article about the platform Jolla mobile develops, with discussion of Mer (operating system) relationship.

As I see it, this would solve the problem. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support, except keep the current article mostly as is (and not really a split):

• Don't change the name to Jolla Mobile, as company article guidelines suggest using company official name (Jolla Oy) minus legal suffix, and the company seems to use Mobile only to disambiguate in case Jolla is already in use (eg. Twitter, and domain before they bought jolla.com).
• Remove the mention of Mer from the lead.
• Add a main-article link to Jolla OS from the Jolla#Software section. --TuukkaH (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to remove Mer from the Jolla article, you need to remove Meego as well. I.e. speak about the company as a company and don't mention any technologies. -- Bahaltener (talk) 17:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MeeGo is not a technology since it was discontinued — it is a promoted buzzword, and (used alone) indeed belongs to article company trying to both use Mer and capitalize the hype around MeeGo events. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I support the gist of Czarkoff's proposal, but I don't think it's neccessary to disambiguate the company name as Jolla mobile, when the Jolla OS name is already disambiguated. Jolla should be reserved for the company, Jolla OS should be for the platform. An analogy is the Google and Google Search articles.--SGCM (talk) 12:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really care whether an article on company would be Jolla, Jolla mobile, Jolla Ltd or Jolla Oy. The particular choice of Jolla mobile above was dictated by WP:COMMONNAME and the fact that the main topic isn't absolutely clear. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Try at an objective measurement of what's the common name: Google News search results: "Jolla Mobile" 78 results; Jolla Meego 2680 results. --TuukkaH (talk) 19:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article stated that "Jolla Mobile" is a common name. When I check Google News, I get 78 results for "Jolla Mobile", 7 results for "Jolla Ltd" and 5 results for "Jolla Oy". Though "Jolla MeeGo" indeed spits 187 results, none of them use this construct as a company name. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 19:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm ... what would be the difference to my idea from above with a Linux-only lede, Meego/Meego-ecosystem under cooperate affairs and Mer under software? The risk to mix up things again by new editors? I am also a little bit reluctant to the split up, simply because we will get 2 micro articles out from one small one. As long as there are no products the "Jolla company" article will be rather short, people might fill a delete request again, especially if there is then another Jolla OS article. Hence, I would try to split it only after the release of some hardware or at least the release of enough information/specification of it. But ok, if we cannot find a better agreement (and we are looking for one already some time now), then I am fine with the split. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As the company and its software technology are both notable, they deserve their own articles. Then we needn't find and agree on a compromise on the topic of the article ("fluffy" business or "exact" technology). As for article size, no content would need to be removed from the current company article, its structure is good as it is (just the lead is in need of tweaking). --TuukkaH (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well yes, notable for me and you, but to others? I assume we would have to use the WP:PRODUCT, but there are not yet any products or services, so even the people who voted for Jolla last time, might not vote for it the next time, especially if there is a Jolla OS article. I also wouldn't care if you mention Meego / ecosystem and other fluffy things in the business part. ;-) --Dark Almöhi (talk) 12:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Dark Almöhi: unless there is something to touch, notability of Jolla Oy and of Jolla OS remains questionable, and particularly notability of company is more questionable then that of software platform. That's why I think that technical detail should prevail if article is not split. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Notability remains questionable"? If you think that's relevant here, then why did you make the proposal to split in the first place? Anyway, the notability of the company was firmly established at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jolla, and you're saying the notability of the platform is even less questionable. --TuukkaH (talk) 22:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I managed to mislead you: I mean that as there is only news stream, and until there is an actual product, that is sold and reviewed, there is no way to determine the main topic among Jolla Oy and Jolla OS. Nevertheless, splitting topics makes sense as it allows finer-grained focus on company and technology respectively. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all, I'd like to propose a "Forest for the trees" solution that I think will satisfy both sides as I precieve them (the "MeeGo" and the "Mer" camps).

Jolla Oy[1] (internationally Jolla Ltd., commonly called Jolla Mobile in many sources) is an independent Finland-based company to design, develop and sell smartphones with a mobile Linux operating system based on the work of the MeeGo and Mer projects.

We already discussed sth like that above, just search for "MeeGo and Mer projects". Thanks for trying to help. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 00:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This allows those who see it being a specific slight to talk exclusively about one or the other. Both get somewhat equal representation in their contribution to Jolla. I chose MeeGo over Mer to go first simply on alphabetical order. The idea is that we've been discussing this here for 11 days and still not come to any sort of resolution. Pending this solution not being accepted I'm inclined to request that this be closed and have either more advanced forms of DR (Widely advertised RFC (including applicable wikiprojects) or moving forward to MEDCOM). Hasteur (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Mixed-breed dog (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Chrisrus (talk · contribs)
• 65.121.228.201 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A user has parachuted into this page and made some edits that are not appropriate. He continues to revert other peoples edits and corrections and refuses to accept a proposed compromise. He is using repeated reversions. Despite rational explanations, he insists other users haven't made their point to the point of filibustering on the talk page.

The issue is that this page is about mixed-breed dogs. One section mentions "pariah dogs" which is a general term for feral dogs descended from a wild population anywhere in the world. A user (Chrisrus) is insisting on changing a photograph of a mixed-breed dog to one of an Indian Pariah dog, which (despite the name) is a pure-bred dog breed recognized by the United and American Kennel Clubs.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

The user has been offered a compromise of removing the original picture and having no graphic at all, but he has refused the compromise and continuously reverts page versions back to his own version. User's talk page shows this has been a pattern on other pages as well.

How do you think we can help?

The compromise is appropriate. If the group cannot agree on a graphic, the text will suffice. There are plenty of other graphics on the page.

Opening comments by Chrisrus

The problem seems to derive from the fact that "Mixed breed dog" and "Pariah dog" are problematic terms. This issue at the moment is whether the article should have at least one picture to illustrate the "pariah-type" characteristics that article describes and tend to be common to many such so-called "mixed breed" unbred or neverbred dogs. His edit would leave the article with none at all, and my edit would leave it with at least one. His reasoning, that if he can't have the picture that had been serving this purpose, then he will allow no such picture at all, is fautly.

The problem is the edit he insists on does not constitue article improvement because it would remove from the article the only illustration of the "unbred" or "never bred" dogs which the article repeatedly talks about; the autochthonous landraces that have never been been literally bred, but which, perhaps unfortunately, are often referred to as "mixed breeds". These dogs, the article says, tend toward a particular set of "pariah-type" features named for the features of the Indian Pariah dog. No dog illustrates pariah dog features better than an Indian pariah dog, so I want to use it, but other dogs may do so as well as the indian pariah dog, and therein lies a possiblity of compromise. But we need a picture to illustrate the "pariah dog" characteristics of many such dogs. Having no picture whatsoever of any of the "unbred" so called "mixed-breed" dogs that the article keeps talking about is not an improvement over having one and it is more important to improve the article than to do the opposite because we can't agree on one that will do the job.

Opening comments by 65.121.228.201

Mixed-breed dog discussion

Hi folks, I'm Zaldax, a volunteer here at the DRN board. Just waiting for opening comments from both parties so we can start. Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 13:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm taking a look at the article in question, as well as at the talk pages and images in question. Now I'm not an expert on dog breeds, so I may not be the best-qualified to address this, but I'm wondering where the page Pariah dog fits into all this? Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the question is what kind of photo to use. Do we use an image of a recognized purebreed with pariah ancestry, or a photo of a dog "belonging to or descended from a population of wild or feral dogs."? Is that the case?

According to the lede of Pariah Dog,

"The term pariah dog (also pye dogs, or pi dogs) originally referred to Chinese/Indian feral dogs of a particular type, but it is now used by the United Kennel Club to refer to a purebred dog category."

Am I correct in that some of the disagreement stems from the two separate definitions of the term? Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After a bit of digging, I noticed that the Carolina Dog is recognized as a "(Spitz and) Primitive" breed by the American Rare Breed Association and as a Pariah dog by the UKC. According to the article, the dog wasn't discovered until the 1970s. Would one of the images on this page be an acceptable compromise?

(Comment by Chrisrus removed as it's way over 2000 characters. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 10:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC))[reply]

That comment is way over 2000 charactors, and so could you trim it? ~~Ebe123~~ → report 21:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The issue began when the long-standing illustration was removed by Chrisus because he felt it was of dubious origin. This is acceptable. The issue is that the substituted picture is no more relevant because it shows a pure-bred dog, according to the British Kennel Club). In the spirit of Wikipedia and compromise, the general feeling of the group is that because true pariah dogs (not pure-bred Indian Pariah Dogs which descend from what was once a feral population) are a wide-ranging dog type in different counties of the world, no one graphic can accurately illustrate it. Therefore the compromise is not to have a photo and to let the text stand as the main descriptor. The section does not need a graphic, and the page already has many good illustrations. Anyone that wants to see a type of pariah dog can link to that page. Remember that this page is about mixed-breed dogs, and the variety they exhibit. Remember that compromise is give and take, one of Chrisus' edits was accepted, one was questioned. The best solution is to leave the section as it stands, without a graphic in this section, which is really a minor part of the page as a whole. Thanks, all. 65.121.228.201 (talk) 14:30, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Are third party comments allowed here?) No landrace breeds can be described simply as a purebreed. There might be some being co-opted into a closed registry system, but that does not make the entirety of the group purebreds. I've tried and failed to find evidence of the Indian Pariah Dog being recognized by either the AKC or UKC. The Indian Pariah Dog article mentions recognition by a US Pariah Dog organization. That's hardly enough to claim that a dog owned by a farmer in a village in India is pure and therefore not a pariah dog.--Dodo bird (talk) 16:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Third party comments are not only allowed, they're encouraged! Our aim is to resolve a content dispute as best as possible; if you feel you can help, then by all means please do so! Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's true, what Dodo says. Also, a search for the word "pariah" at the British Kennel Club website just now returned no hits. And what this IP user says about why I swapped out the pictures isn't true. I did it so we could see the dog clearly. Chrisrus (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that detailed explanation; not only have I learned something about dogs, but now everything is much clearer. With regards to comments above, the edits by Chrisrus do look like good-faith edits to me, and the picture that he replaced does indeed show the characteristics of the dog better. I'm going to do a little digging, to see if I can come up with anything more supporting the Indian Pariah dog as a recognized purebreed. It does strike me as a little odd that an animal which arose by natural selection can be designated a purebred just like, say, a bulldog, though.

In any case, I've contacted Roregan, the creator of PariahDog.png, and asked if that dog is still available to him or her. With any luck, we might be able to get a better picture of that dog; if that is the case, would that be an acceptable compromise? Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for contacting me. I am sad to report that Roo, my beloved feral pariah-type dog, is no longer alive. I will look for other photographs that might better illustrate the characteristics of such dogs and will happily supply one, if I can find one. (If anyone has suggestions as to a more illustrative angle, please let me know.) From my quick read of the discussion, it does seem to me that the existing picture has been left in the article from which it should be replaced - the one on "Pariah Dogs" and excised from the "Mixed-Breed Dog" article in which it was appropriate. Roo was not an Indian dog and was certainly not a pure breed no matter how that term might be defined. What she was was a very good example of a "pariah-type" mixed breed dog -- of which there are millions of examples to be found in virtually every dusty pothole everywhere in the world. I do think that the type is so common and distinctive that the article is diminished by the lack of an illustrative image. While I comb my archive for a better angle, I suggest that an image of an Indian-type dog be used in the article about the pariah breed and that the existing pariahdog.png be reinstated in the mixed-breed article. Roregan (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to hear about Roo. Ideal pictures of dogs for leads and anytime a really good overall look at a dog in dogbooks and breed posters at the vets and wikipedia infoboxes and so on are generally standing and in profile, see if you have one. The ideal background would indicate the circumstances that led to the features of the dog, such as a Husky with a showy dogslead in the background, or a pekingese in what would look like a Chinese nobelwomen's room, and so on.

I have an idea for a compromise in which we satisfy this IP user's worry that people will be confused by means of a re-written caption for the picture so that everyone knows we are using a picture of an Indian Pariah dog to exemplify the characteristics of pariah-type dogs in general. If a caption can satisfy his concern that people won't understand well about pariah dogs then I hope he will agree to stop reverting. I tried once today and plan to try again with maybe an even clearer wording tomorrow. That way, a casual scanner of the article will understand why an ancient landrace is being shown in an article about "mixed breed dogs". Chrisrus (talk) 22:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be no photos in my archive that would be the sort of "hero shot" that would work in this context. I have seen other pictures of feral street dogs that would work for the mixed-breed dog category. I will be sad, however, to see Roo — a magnificent representative of lack of breeding — disappear from the article. It does seem odd that her picture remains in the article about the Indian pariah dogs. As has been noted before, Roo made her home in Ontario. As for the observation that the original edit was made because the dog was of dubious origin — that IS the point about these dogs, is it not?

Since the article on mixed-breed dogs does contain a link to the pariah dog article, it does seem that the casual reader is the loser here, since the striking similarities amongst feral pariah-type dogs around the world provide us the opportunities for insights into the fundamental nature of both dogs and the human communities to which they attach themselves. My picture was one of those. There were others, one I remember taken in Central America, that seem to have been excised, too. From the standpoint of conveying interesting and useful information, therefore, I think we've lost ground here. Too bad. Roregan (talk) 19:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is losing a bit of focus. I think all the information on Pariah dogs is interesting, but probably belongs on its own page. The definition of a pariah dog is "A pariah is any dog of a breed or landrace that adheres to the long term pariah morphotype, has a deviant estrus cycle from the typical canine one, and displays primitive behavioral characteristics." The section on pariah dogs would be better on its own page, or on the Landrace page. Not the mixed-breed dog page. Mixed-breed dogs are not a breed or a landrace (naturally occurring breed.) The characteristic of a mixed-breed dog is that it has a wide gene pool.

And I repeat, as others have, that a picture of an Indian Pariah Dog is not suitable on a mixed-breed dog page. 65.121.228.201 (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pariah dogs are small feral populations descended from more ancient lines of dogs, Because of the isolation and subsequent narrowing gene pool, they tend to start to look alike over time. They are in fact, the opposite of a mixed-breed dog - one that is genetically diverse. This text section should be more properly on another page. 50.7.10.34 (talk) 15:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A single individual cannot be said to have a wide gene pool or be genetically diverse. These are concepts that apply to populations. --Dodo bird (talk) 23:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As the addition of the following with updated caption would constitute article improvement, I would add it immediately:

• 
  Unbred mongrel landraces such as the Indian Pariah Dog are not literally "mixed breeds".

I apologize to the IP editor. Looking back now, there are times when I was clearly not reading what he was trying to tell me carefully enough and as a result misunderstood him and consequently got his back up. Many of my posts could have been written better and I should have been more careful. I also want to say that the cause of this conflict seems to me to be more due to problems with the English language than the behavior of this editor, and the end result of it has been quite good for the direction of the article.

Finally, I'd like to ask if it would be proper for me to bring up a few other conflicts there are in the article that need to be addressed before closing this thread, or would it be better to open a new one? Chrisrus (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Note: Signing in now) Chrisus. Take any new edits back to the Talk page for that article.

I re-read the Mixed-breed dog page. The picture and section on Pariah Dogs definitely isn't suitable there. It also makes no sense to add a graphic to an already graphics-heavy page with a caption saying that it's an example of what something is not. If anyone wants to add this picture to another suitable page feel free. You might try Dog, or Indian Pariah Dog, or Pariah Dog, or Feral Dog.

Chrisus, you mentioned above there was an issue during the original discussion with your use of English. If English is your second language, I'm sure posting on the Talk page first would help, as the regular contributors could help with corrections. Also by preparing additions in a WP program, you can use the spelling and grammar checker. Remember, many contributors are professional writers and editors, and barring another explanation they'll assume errors in spelling and grammar are just carelessness.

I'll post the findings here on the article Talk page and see if anyone who hasn't commented yet wants to weigh in. If anyone who hasn't commented yet has a suggestion for where the material should be moved, other than what has already been suggested, please suggest it. Thanks, David Ross19 (talk) 18:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the English language I was talking about lies in the fact that while on the face of it the term "mixed breed dog" would seem to imply a mix of purebred dogs, it often is used to refer to mongrel landraces, such as the Indian Pariah dog, that have no purebred dogs in their ancestry. Purebred dogs origianally came from such mongrels, or so says the article, not the other way around. So a huge number of so-called "mixed-breed" dogs are not literally a mix of breeds but are nevertheless considered mongrels because they've not been selectively bred by people. This is what the article says. This can be confusing for many people, and I was saying it seemed to me to be the cause of this conflict. Chrisrus (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is about whether an image of the supposedly "pure" Indian Pariah Dog can represent pariah dogs. The claim of the Indian Pariah Dog being recognized as a purebreed has not been backed up by evidence. It wouldn't matter anyway. Even landrace breeds with "pure" populations like the Saluki and Basenji have country-of-origin dogs are not seen automatically as pure by the purebreed registries which recognizes them. The suitability of including information on pariah dogs in the article was not previously discussed even when the pariah dog image was, which would imply a tacit acceptance of this information. Discussion along this line is outside the scope of this dispute and should start at the talk page first.--Dodo bird (talk) 23:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• 
  Roo, a "pariah-type" mongrel.

Hi! I'm Amadscientist, I'm an editor and a volunteer for DR/N. I will be happy to assist with this dispute. I will read through the information, do a small review of the article and talkpage and post an intitial evaluation a little later. While this takes place, please do not post further replies or comments here for the time being and I also suggest taking a small break away from the article and any associated editor talkpages during this time as well. The evaluation will not be a judgement or take a side. It will just be an assesment of where the dispute is at this time.--Amadscientist (talk) 12:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was asked to start contributing more at DR/N and I picked this dispute. However, since you are involved I'll just wait. Chrisus and I haved worked together before. Jobberone (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, please, do help out on this page. I introduced myself and stepped back, purposely to allow time for any objection of any kind. I will withdraw and move to another DR. Thank you Jobbrone! I support you collaborating with these editors towards a resolution! Thank you.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think I got the same message myself earlier. Yes, to all you who made comments above, I'm yet another "volunteer" here. I looked a bit earlier today, and the American Kennel Club webpage doesn't list the Indian Mongrel Dog listed there, but I suppose it might be under some other name. The question seems to be about landrace dogs vs. mixed breed dogs vs. "purebred dogs" as per the various kennel societies. I didn't comment then because I didn't check the datestamp on Amadscientist above. I did see that our own articles on some of the topics above are a bit equivocal on whether "landraces" might be "mixed breed," and issues regarding WP:NAME and whether the apparently most frequently used definition of "purebred dogs", which seems to be the kennel societies' definition, is the definition used by others. I am myself willing to offer any assistance, if it's wanted, but thought I might let Jobberone know what I saw earlier anyway, and leave any future involvement on my part at the discretion of others. John Carter (talk) 22:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Amadscientist and John Carter, I'm not here to take over. I'm more than willing to sit on the sidelines and wait and see if I'm needed. I'll just do some more review and wait and see if you guys want me to pitch in. Jobberone (talk) 03:35, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, if you have some familiarity with the individuals or topic, your significant involvement might be very useful. I don't know dog subjects that well myself, and the major issue seems to be about the potentially confusing phrasing. I'm thinking, maybe, it might help if we were to get some further input on the parties, seeing if they agree with any of these comments and of any possible solutions they might have. If, as I think, part of the problem is perception of the meaning of words, knowing exactly how people perceive the contentious terms might be useful. John Carter (talk) 19:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, then we'll proceed. I've read the article and I'm ready to clarify each parties position. I understand this dispute to be primarily about what image to use to depict a mixed-breed dog. Is this correct? Has the topic of dispute drifted significantly? Please, keep your answers very brief. Filibustering will be edited out without comment. Also both parties agree to stop further editing of either the talk page or article. Jobberone (talk) 22:34, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Bulgaria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ximhua (talk · contribs)
• WilliamThweatt (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Should 681 AD be added as Establishment date for Bulgaria in the Info box

Sources:

Encyclopedia Britanica

Bulgaria, Indiana University, 1987, p. 53

Erik Kooper (2006), The Medieval Chronicle V, p. 97

R. J. Crampton (2005), A Concise History Of Bulgaria, Cambridge University Press, p. 9

Francisco Rodríguez Adrados (2005), A History of the Greek Language, BRILL, p. 265

M. Avrum Ehrlich (2008), Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora, ABC-CLIO, p. 954

Juliet Lodge (2010), The 2009 Elections to the European Parliament, Palgrave MacMillan, p. 60

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

It was discussed on Talk page, at the request for mediation I was advised to try DRN again.

How do you think we can help?

Review the sources provided and advise if 681 AD is indeed internationally recognized as foundation date for Bulgaria. If so, then it should be in the info box.

Opening comments by WilliamThweatt

Bulgaria discussion

• Hi, I'm a volunteer here at DRN. I looked at the talk page and there hasn't been any sustained discussion there since the previous mediation request was closed. I really think you should give that another go first - the second thing is that the mediation request was declined as all didn't sign on to participate. Has that changed? Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 04:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute is between me and WilliamThweatt, I've initiated this here as the talk page doesn't seem to be productive and I'm really hoping that in a mediated environment as this one, we'll reach out a solution faster. I really don't see the point to go back to the talk page, as it moves away from a fact based discussion. As Wikipedia is encyclopedic content and not a forum, can you help lead us to a solution please? Ximhua (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm another regular volunteer here at DRN. What I actually see at the mediation page is that they recommended an RFC, not a return to DRN. However, I also see that you listed a RFC at the RFC request board on August 9, but then (not unreasonably) removed it when it had not been processed into an active RFC by August 25. It appears to me that the use of the request board for requesting RFC's seems to be not working very well at the moment. Could I suggest that you try again to request an RFC using the regular method for requesting an RFC? In your request, which ought to be placed at Talk:Bulgaria#Sovereignty_dates_in_the_Infobox, you might include a link to the prior DRN discussion on this issue. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would've done an RFC, but I feel it will be better if the environment is moderated, as spirits run high on this simple topic apparently. Thus, would you kindly consider helping resolve this under DRN? Thanks! Ximhua (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it'd help if all editors involved were willing to participate. We can't really be of much help if half of those involved in the dispute aren't willing to come to the table. Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 02:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I'm yet another volunteer at DRN. I would do the RfC, as you were told to do, but since it hasn't worked out for you, I see why you thought to try DRN. I also see, much as Steven has, that not all of the involved are participating, It is critical in a DRN case that all of the involved participate so there is fair discussion and a conclusion can be reached with everyone getting "their side of the story" in. There isn't much more I have to offer than reiterate what Steven has said about not having a sustained discussion on the talk page before coming here. I'm not seeing one. Could you give me a link to that discussion? Thank you.  Joe  ₪  13:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would note that WilliamThweatt wasn't notified of this discussion. I notified him. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for notifying WilliamThweatt, I thought the system will notify him. The issue with involving many editors is that last time this was done (Request for mediation), the editors were invited, then they didn't participate and the request for mediation was rejected, as editors didn't participate, so it is a bit of catch 22. I welcome other editor's participation, as long as they do participate and that their lack of participation is not used as grounds to reject the request. Ximhua (talk) 23:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I'm also a DRN volunteer and will help co-mediate this dispute. Please note that we much get a statement from WilliamThweatt before we can start. Electric Catfish 22:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Prior DRN case on Bulgaria - For the record, the prior DRN case on this exact topic is archived at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_40#Bulgaria. There is lots of good background material there, and quite a few editors participated. The resolution was not black-and-white. During that case, I posted a note at the Countries project to get some outside input, and I believe that two editors replied and both felt that 681 should not be in the InfoBox (instead it should start with 1878). --Noleander (talk) 01:31, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– Discussion in progress.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Luigi di Bella (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Robertiki (talk · contribs)
• Yobol (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I am uneasy about some information removal, and not sure (don't understand) the justifications from the cancel party.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Opened one talk page: "Parallel studies" and followed up in the talk page "Books" with request for explanation about more cancellations.

How do you think we can help?

Explain me where I am wrong, if I am wrong, anche if not, explain to Yobol that some of the information he as cancelled should be restored.

Opening comments by Yobol

Summary of dispute, since original poster did not give enough information for outside input to be useful:

There seem to be two different disputes: 1) Robertiki wishes to use this source in the article about di Bella. A quick scan of this source shows no mention of di Bella, so mention of this source would seem to be WP:OR. Talk page discussion about this can be found here.

2) Robertiki objected to my removal of a list of published works by di Bella (see diff here). My main objection to such lists is that Wikipedia is not a CV; we can certainly discuss di Bella's works if they have received significant coverage in independent reliable sources. However, I object to the apparently arbitrary list of di Bella's works if they have not been noted to be significant, per WP:UNDUE. Review of possibly relevant guidelines for guidance in such cases have not been helpful, so further input on this from outside editors is appreciated. Yobol (talk) 02:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Luigi di Bella discussion

I think we can open it for discussion. Just a couple points before.

• I cannot get past the paywall for Combined effects of melatonin and all-trans retinoic acid and somatostatin on breast cancer cell proliferation and death: Molecular basis for the anticancer effect of these molecules, so could someone send a copy by email?
• A source about Di Bella that has no mention of di Bella isn't nessesarily Original research, although it might be.

~~Ebe123~~ → report 11:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm the source doesn't mention Bella. The addition here: [22] on the basis of that reference is original research (this doesn't mean anything for other references, just this one). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, can't help with the full text. But I found a reference that makes a connection with Di Bella to that research: https://www.medify.com/insights/article/22532966/combined-effects-of-melatonin-and-all-trans-retinoic-acid-and-somatostatin-on-breast-cancer-cell-proliferation-and-death-molecular-basis-for-the-anticancer-effect-of-these-molecules where I read, under "Similar Articles": "Evaluation of an unconventional cancer treatment (the Di Bella multitherapy): results of phase II trials in Italy. Italian Study Group for the Di Bella Multitherapy Trails.", which is a link to: https://www.medify.com/insights/article/9915729/evaluation-of-an-unconventional-cancer-treatment-the-di-bella-multitherapy-results-of-phase-ii-trials-in-italy-italian-study-group-for-the-di-bella-multitherapy-trails?ref=related --Robertiki (talk) 16:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See, the fact that these works are considered similar doesn't make this research related to that of di Bella (or Di Bella?). If the work speculated on his research, it could be used in the article in some way, but it doesn't; thus it doesn't belong to the article about di Bella (or Di Bella?). That said, it might find its place in the article about the topic it belongs to, if it is needed there. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An automated algorithm for some website suggesting one is related to the other isn't enough. Secondary sources like academic review articles making the link between the papers is what is needed, otherwise it is original research. On wikipedia we can't accept original research (see WP:NOR). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I've looked at the article & the diffs identified above, and I concur with user Yobol's opinion on both issues: (1) the "Combined effects of melatonin ..." source should not be used; and (2) the list of publications is not appropriate for the article. --Noleander (talk) 00:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– Discussion in progress.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Internet Explorer 9 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Users involved

• Czarkoff (talk · contribs)
• Codename Lisa (talk · contribs)
• Ziiike (talk · contribs)
• Schapel (talk · contribs)
• Nigelj (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The disputed content is the infobox field |license= in the Internet Explorer 9 article.

The browser is available free of charge for licensees of Windows, so that in order to use IE one has to buy Windows license. The title of the license agreement for IE is "MS-EULA", but it is also the generic abbreviation Microsoft uses to refer to any of its numerous End User License Agreements (which differ quite significantly in terms).

The disputants can't decide on the following matters:

1. Is IE a "freeware" or a "Proprietary commercial software"?
2. Is "MS-EULA" an appropriate way to refer to the license for IE in this particular article?
3. Is it appropriate at all to use the terms from the question #1 in the |license= parameter?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

• Discussion at User talk:Codename Lisa#Freeware and MS EULA
• Discussion at Talk:Internet Explorer 9#MS-EULA again
• Third opinion at Talk:Internet Explorer 9#MS-EULA again (the 3O editor became involved in the dispute though)

How do you think we can help?

Help to work out the |license= parameter wording that would communicate the core of problem to the readers in optimal way.

Opening comments by Codename Lisa

Imagine you open an article about a new Microsoft product whose license fields reads: "MS-EULA". Can you please tell me: Does the user have to pay for it? Can he redistribute it? Can he install it on as many computers as he likes? Can he disassemble and reverse-engineer it? No, you can't. There are over 35000 Microsoft products, each of which have their own unique "Microsoft End-User License Agreement" (MS-EULA). Some of them are commercial software, some free and open-source, some closed source but free of charge. Contrary to phrases like "GPL" or "Creative Commons", "MS-EULA" is not the name of a ubiquitous licensing scheme and has zero bearing on what the terms of license is. It is meaningless. Surprisingly, this phrase does not appear in the license agreement of our subject of discussion at all.

Now, freeware on the other hand is a lose term which means gratis proprietary software. The opposition argued that Internet Explorer's license agreement also mandates the owner to have a genuine Windows license and the word freeware is not enough. Although I disagree, I accepted and proposed phrases like "Freeware for Windows license owners" or "free upgrade for Windows". But the opposition agrees to no compromise and is somehow unduly embittered about the fact that Windows itself is a commercial product. (Of course, I think this is just a political anti-piracy maneuver of Microsoft; in the end, from a neutral point of view, Internet Explorer is exactly as free as any other freeware like Opera, CCleaner or Paint.NET which also need the user to own a copy of Windows. Reputable software publishers like Tucows^[25], Softpedia^[26], FileHippo^[27] and SnapFiles^[28] regard IE freeware.)

Opening comments by Ziiike

Freeware is not the best term to be used as it is poorly defined. MS-EULA cannot be used due to not being a license. In my opinion, either saying it is freeware for windows license holders or simply saying it is proprietary would be best. Ziiike (talk) 01:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Schapel

I believe that the most appropriate wording would be license=Proprietary Commercial Software, both because Internet Explorer is part of Windows, and also because a Windows license is required to run Internet Explorer legally.[29] (You may not use it if you do not have a license for the software.) This is despite the fact that it could be technically possible to run Internet Explorer without Windows (for example, running it under Wine on Linux). Because it is impossible to run Internet Explorer without paying money to Microsoft for Windows, which Internet Explorer is a part of, it cannot be considered freeware. If it were freeware, it could be used legally without payment to Microsoft for a license. -- Schapel (talk) 03:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The issue of the cost (as opposed to the license) can be handled by stating that it is included with Windows, which indicates that users who have paid for Windows don't have to purchase Internet Explorer separately. -- Schapel (talk) 13:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Nigelj

The relevant license is the Microsoft End User License Agreement (MS EULA) for IE9. I'm told that we're not allowed simply to name and link the relevant license under 'License' in the infobox, because the infobox documentation says to "avoid specifying phrases that makes no sense to the reader such as "Microsoft EULA"". I disagree with this, and I have been told that it is because "There has already been a discussion about this whole issue and a consensus has previously been established." I have asked for a link to the discussion, but haven't seen one yet. If it is going to be possible to summarise the whole MS-EULA for IE9 into one or two words for the infobox, we'll have to start with the original text, which is linked above.[30] It's a supplemental license that says "If you are licensed to use Microsoft Windows 7, Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, or Windows Server 2008 R2 software (for which this supplement is applicable) (the “software”), you may use this supplement. You may not use it if you do not have a license for the software." I would much rather just name the Microsoft document and provide a link to it, but if we can't do that for some realistic reason, then we may have to content ourselves with summarising or classifying it into our own words. Legally, I do not feel very well qualified to do so accurately. P.S. See Talk:Internet Explorer 9#MS-EULA again, not quite as stated in some of the links above. --Nigelj (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Czarkoff

I believe that the most appropriate wording would be |license=[[Freeware]] for Windows licensees, as it both demonstrates that Internet Explorer per se is distributed free of charge, though Windows license (which costs money) is required. I find |license=MS-EULA approach particularly bad, as MS-EULA it is an abbreviation of the generic title of Microsoft license agreement and doesn't communicate the terms of license to readers. 23:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Internet Explorer discussion

Hello all, I'm a volunteer here at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm going to try and shepherd this dispute to a resolution. Let's wait until all the parties have had an opportunity to present their cases. Hasteur (talk) 11:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now that we've got all the editors statements, I'd like to ask a question. Where in the infobox {{Infobox Windows component}} is the licence field? Unless I've missed something the template doesn't have support for a licence field and I've spot checked and seen this template in use on the page since the beginning of this year. Could someone please link me to the direct item that they're wanting to change? Hasteur (talk) 17:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, it is my fault: I linked the wrong article. The discussion is about {{infobox web browser}} of Internet Explorer 9 article. I fixed the links in this case. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:37, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, I'd say that any of these terms is correct. One thing that struck me is that a footnote may be suitable in this case to explain the need to have a valid Windows license. You may have already done this, but I took a quick look at comparable browsers. None of course are exactly the same, but they may help:

• Opera (web browser): Proprietary freeware with open source components
  • Note: proprietary, formerly commercial, freeware
• Safari (web browser): Freeware; some components GNU LGPL
  • Note: commercial, freeware, default browser on Mac
• Netscape (web browser): proprietary
  • Note: formerly commercial, proprietary, freeware, belligerent in browser wars against IE
• Mosaic (web browser): proprietary
  • Note: proprietary, commercial, freeware for non-commercial use
• AOL Explorer: proprietary
  • Note: based on IE, proprietary, commercial, freeware, required browser to access AOL, required a valid AOL subscription
• Internet Explorer for Mac: MS-EULA
  • Note: proprietary, commercial, freeware, default browser on Mac, required a valid Mac license [Edit: struck this because it's a given]

--RA (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now that I can see how the problem is affecting this, I'd like to ask another question. What about Internet Explorer 9 (hereafter refered to as IE9) and it's licence is significantly different than the previous 8 versions? I did a quick tour through the other versions and saw MS-EULA on the rest of them. Hasteur (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is no difference. That said, I'm unsure whether the fact that the other IE-related articles contain |license=MS-[[EULA]] proves that this choice is right or at least better then any other. As I see it, the role of |license= parameter is to inform readers of terms of use of the software, and neither the name "MS-EULA", not the link to end-user license agreement article helps to fulfill this role. Though I have no proof to establish the validity of my vision, it is in line with documentation of {{infobox software}}, containing the same parameter. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dimitrij, can we have time to let others speak up? Hasteur (talk) 18:49, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I must agree with Dimitrij on that point. MS-EULA has zero sense and is a WP:GAN blocker. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 14:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, After crawling through the definitions again I am confused. I'd like to hear each disputant's viewpoint about the inclusionary/exclusionary natures of commercial software and freeware (Specifically paid versus given away and restricted rights) Hasteur (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Czarkoff:Term freeware (as I get it) means that usage rights (commonly ambiguously referred to as "license") for the software is offered free of charge. As I get it, this term doesn't imply lack of usage restrictions: typically freeware is offered without right of modification (or adaptation), frequently for non-commercial purposes only, seldom other restrictions are imposed. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Codename Lisa: "Freeware" means proprietary software available for use free of charge. It applies to every piece of software that has a license agreement of its own. Other facts such as hardware or software requirements, dependencies (independent versus add-in), eligibility (first use versus upgrade), platform, availability for commercial use, etc. are excluded from the scope of "freeware". May or may not overlap the definition of freemium.

Ziiike: Freeware: Closed Source software that is available for no charge. Any restrictions or limits could be present, to the extent that it is free, (In terms of cost.)

Commercial: Most commonly refers to closed source software that you must pay for. Any restrictions or limits could be present. Freeware, according to the page, I believe; does not contain an official or common definition. Commercial seems to refer to must pay software, such as Microsoft Word, the best example of common freeware would be a software that has no restrictions other than no source and prohibited reverse engineering and disassembly. Ziiike (talk) 01:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Schapel: The term freeware means software that costs no money to use. If there is an exchange of money for the right to use a program, then that program is not freeware. Several editors argue that once a user has purchased Windows, then using browsers such as Opera or Internet Explorer costs no extra money, and therefore they should equally be considered freeware. There are two problems with this argument. First, no money was paid to Opera for the right to use their software, but the user did pay Microsoft money for the right to run Internet Explorer (because using it legally requires a Windows license). Second, I can download Opera for Windows and run it under Wine on Linux without paying any money; I would not be able to do the same with Internet Explorer. The bottom line is that using Internet Explorer requires a payment that is not required for using actual freeware browsers, which require no payment. -- Schapel (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nigelj: To my mind, freeware implies not only that it doesn't require payment, but usually that there are no restrictions on what you do with it, what operating system you run it on (provided you can get it to run); it usually means that there is no support, no updates, no warranty, and no one to sue if it screws up your machine or your business. None of this applies to MSIE, or businesses would not pay out for Microsoft OS licenses in order to be able to roll out MSIE across all their desktops, with full support, updates, backup etc. I think that the correct response is MS-[[EULA]], with a ref linked to the specific actual document at http://windows.microsoft.com/en-MY/internet-explorer/products/ie-9/end-user-license-agreement That way there is no WP:OR and all relevant information is made available. I remain baffled by the admonition "Please avoid specifying phrases that makes no sense to the reader such as "Microsoft EULA"" in the infobox documentation. If this is the correct license for 35,000 products, why should we not name it, link it, and reference it? --Nigelj (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One of the problems is that, like many words, they're vaguely defined. The ambiguity of the term freeware has a lot to do with the dispute. Perhaps it's better just to stick with "proprietary software"?--SGCM (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. First, I'd like to clarify that not every vague is ambiguous. Vague can refer to overgeneralized as well. "Freeware" is not ambiguous but it is overgeneralized. I think this wideness of scope gives us freedom. That said, I can perfectly make do with any compromise that involves a phrase that defines the terms of license. I myself prefer "Freeware for Windows license owners" but I accept "proprietary software" as my third choice. In the mean time, if the license is so important, the are article can have footnotes or a whole license section. (I participated or studied various GA or FA cases in which such a section was applauded.)

What I refuse to accept on any merit is a phrase that fails to help the reader determines the terms of license to whatever insufficient extent, especially MS-EULA. Such phrases can fail a GA nomination or review.

Now, as for Nigelj's assertion: First, in your own mind, you have clearly mistaken freeware with free and open-source and therefore no proprietary gratis software (such as Opera or iTunes) qualifies as freeware against the definition you have. Second, no one said it is the correct license for 35,000 products. Even if it was, there is no mention of "MS-EULA" or "Microsoft End-User License Agreement" in Internet Explorer 9's license agreement. You suggestion fails verification against the source you yourself supplied.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 14:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Codename Lisa, will you please stop reading my mind: telling me what I have in my own mind, as well as making up stories about what I'm going to do next. In every case so far you have been wrong. As for the document I linked being an End User License Agreement, please look at the end part of the URL - that is what its publishers published it as. Regarding freeware and FLOSS, I am very well aware of the difference. On the one hand I did not try to 'define' freeware, I said what 'to my mind' it 'implies'. Regarding free and open source software, have a look at SUSE Linux Enterprise Server, Red Hat Enterprise Linux and JBoss - they are all examples of huge FLOSS systems that can cost a great deal of money and come with full support, just like Microsoft products. The difference is that in those cases there is a legitimate meaning for the word 'free', though in another sense. Every other version of MSIE on Wikipedia (except 10, strangely) uses 'MS-EULA' under 'License' in it's infobox. Perhaps someone would like to explain why IE9 is different. --Nigelj (talk) 00:06, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Internet Explorer definitely is proprietary software. Still, |license=[[proprietary software]] isn't acceptable IMO, as it doesn't help with clarification of licensing status — this wording includes everything from official builds of Firefox to Adobe Photoshop. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:41, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I won't argue that. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 19:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good point, but I wonder if there's a way to get around the semantics argument over the term "freeware." Perhaps we should shorten freeware to free? As in "free for Windows licensees"?--SGCM (talk) 20:50, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Free" is mostly associated with free software, and as Microsoft is involved in several opensource projects, this is ambiguous. |license=[[proprietary software|prorietary]], free of charge for Windows licensees<ref>...</ref> would probably do the job. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:59, 29 August 2012 (UTC) updated 22:35, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Using the term free to describe a product that cost money is misleading. I can understand explaining that it costs no additional money for Windows licensees. I think the term proprietary software, included with Windows sums up all of this, is not misleading, and even explains why Windows users do not need to pay extra for Internet Explorer. But the term free is just wrong. -- Schapel (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no version of Windows to include IE 9. And I would ask you again to provide reliable source for the statement that IE itself costs money. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:28, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have not made a statement about a specific version of Internet Explorer. I made the statement that Internet Explorer is included with Windows. When you install Windows, Internet Explorer is included. Are you seriously disputing this fact? But in any case, this is nitpicking, because using Internet Explorer requires a Windows license (whether it is part of Windows or not), and therefore using Internet Explorer legally requires a payment to Microsoft. Internet Explorer is not free -- you pay for it by paying for Windows. -- Schapel (talk) 23:41, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is about the infobox in Internet Explorer 9 article, which is not installed with any version of Windows. It can only be installed after installation (or may come preinstalled by vendor of particular PC). So yes, I absolutely seriously dispute the statements (1) that IE9 is included with Windows and (2) that saying so is appropriate in the article.

Next, could you please explain, how exactly the phrase "for Windows licensees" may make readers think that Total cost of ownership (TCO) of IE doesn't include the cost of acquiring Windows license?

Ultimately, as far as TCO and licensing price are different things, please explain, why do you insist on reporting TCO instead of licensing price in the field clearly named "license"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:23, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Freeware is software that costs no money to use. You must pay Microsoft money to use Internet Explorer. Therefore, it is not free, and calling it freeware is misleading. Obfuscating your argument by throwing around terms such as TCO is just twisting things around trying to make it look like something that costs money to use is free. Do you have no problem with every version of Internet Explorer except version 9 as being characterized as "proprietary software, included with Windows"? Is it specifically version 9 that the argument is about? How about "proprietary software, no-cost upgrade from IE8" then? -- Schapel (talk) 00:33, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IE 9 doesn't require previous installation of IE8. And even if it did, it is not upgrade, but a standalone browser. Or maybe you have a reliable source saying otherwise?

Do you understand that price and cost are not synonyms? Do you understand, that "free" in "freeware" is about the price, not the cost?

Next, where did you notice the word "freeware" in the phrase "prorietary, free of charge for Windows licensees"?

And again, could you please provide reference, saying that the price of Internet Explorer is included in price of Windows license. Unless such reference is found, saying anything beyond "Internet Explorer is available free of charge, but only to owners of legitimate Windows license" constitutes improper synthesis. So please, either provide a reference or stop dragging the discussion into original research. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:48, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, you can figure out that because Internet Explorer requires a Windows license to run, that the price of running Internet Explorer is the same price as Windows, which is decidedly not "free". How does this require a reference? It's directly stated in the licensing terms for Internet Explorer 9. Second, Internet Explorer actually is included with Windows, as it states many times in Internet Explorer. Windows Internet Explorer (formerly Microsoft Internet Explorer, commonly abbreviated IE or MSIE) is a series of graphical web browsers developed by Microsoft and included as part of the Microsoft Windows line of operating systems, starting in 1995. It is part of Windows and is licensed under the same terms as Windows, so it has the same license as Windows -- proprietary software. As far as I'm concerned, labeling all versions of Internet Explorer as "proprietary software" is fine. -- Schapel (talk) 00:55, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The price of running IE is exactly 0 amount of whatever currency. The cost of running IE is the price of Windows license, the costs of accessing PC, the costs of electricity and multiple other costs that don't affect the price of IE' license. Once you state that price of IE includes the price of Windows license, you are synthesizing the verified statements that (1) the license agreement of IE requires legitimate license for certain versions of Windows and (2) Windows is normally licensed for money. These two facts require the third fact — that the price of IE license is included in price of Windows — to verify the statement the price of IE's license is not 0 (in other words, that IE is not freeware). This is the reference you should have provided before putting forward the argument.

Next, several versions of IE can be downloaded separately and installed on other OSs without acquiring the copy of Windows (though still Windows license is necessary), so IE is not only a part of Windows, but also a completely standalone browser. Limiting the content of |license= to the "component" aspect makes the overall statement factually wrong.

That said, I agree that labeling all versions of IE as "proprietary software" is absolutely right. Still, this wording is too general for Infobox. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

At least we can agree that it's proprietary software, and that it doesn't require original research to reach that conclusion. How is it that my conclusion about Internet Explorer costing money is original research, but your arguments are not original research? Can you provide a reliable source that states that Internet Explorer is freeware for Windows licensees? -- Schapel (talk) 01:42, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. This statement is a synthesis of the following:

1. Freeware is software that is distributed free of charge, though other restrictions may apply ([31], [32], etc.);
2. Internet Explorer is distributed free of charge ([33], [34], etc.);
3. Internet Explorer requires Windows license (ref, didn't search for more).

Did I forget anything? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 02:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll also note that Microsoft argued in court that the merging of Microsoft Windows and Internet Explorer was the result of innovation and competition, that the two were now the same product and were inextricably linked together and that consumers were now getting all the benefits of IE for free. United_States_v._Microsoft So Microsoft goes even further than I do, saying not just that IE is part of Windows, but that they are one in the same product! I don't understand how IE can be free if Windows is the same product, and it costs money. That logic completely eludes me! -- Schapel (talk) 02:01, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That was in 1998–1999, when this statement reflected the reality. Now it doesn't. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 02:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So perhaps we can say it is proprietary software and perhaps provide a link in the infobox to a section on the page or another page that explains the license in detail? There is information on this; as IEs4Linux exists and has had issues with this. Ziiike (talk) 00:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that linking would be very helpful, as apart from the discussed issue there are other peculiarities (starting with IE8 some of IE-related intellectual property is liberally licensed, which deserves mention). Still, I'm not sure whether we have currently a good target for this link. Also note, that the link doesn't excuse us from reporting the licensing status of IE9 in the article's infobox, and the wording "proprietary software" fails to achieve the purpose. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:23, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– Discussion in progress.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• CBS Records (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Steelbeard1 (talk · contribs)
• Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs)
• Rothorpe (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

For any new DRN volunteers interested in participating in the dispute, this is the basic summary of the (very long) first DRN. The current dispute is based on two issues.

• Which of the past iterations of Sony Music deserve separate articles? Should CBS Records (1938-1991)? Should CBS Records International (1962-1991)? Both, only one, or neither?
• Is CBS Records (1938-1991) the primary topic? Should CBS Records be disambiguated or should it be disambiguated at CBS Records (disambiguation)? Or is CBS Records (2006) the primary topic? Or neither.

These are the positions of the two parties:

• Richard Arthur Norton believes that CBS Records (1938-1991) deserves a separate article, that it is the primary topic of the CBS Records page, and that a disambiguation is not necessary.
• Steelbeard1 believes that CBS Records (1938-1991) should remain merged with the Sony Music article, that CBS Records International should be split from Sony Music, and that CBS Records should remain a disambiguation.

Both parties have firmly established their opinions on the previous DRN. So how do we compromise?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

This is a fresh restart of a previous DRN. The first DRN went way off topic over a conduct dispute on previous consensus. For this case, let's focus on the policies.

How do you think we can help?

Hopefully, we'll get more third party volunteers involved.

Opening comments by Steelbeard1

CBS Records International was Columbia Records' international arm founded in 1962 to release recordings on the CBS label as EMI's Columbia Graphophone Company unit owned the Columbia Records trademark outside North America. The "CBS Records" entity Norton is referring to was officially renamed Sony Music Entertainment on January 1, 1991. CBS Records was the name of both the record company and the record label. The record label was also officially renamed Columbia Records in 1991 after Sony acquired the rights to the trademark from EMI. Norton still does not understand that the history of the CBS Records company prior to 1991 properly belongs in the Sony Music article. I have created a compromise solution by creating a CBS Records disambig page. The purpose of disambig pages, of course, is to direct readers to the correct article and to alert editors whose wikilinks go to the wrong article to correct the link(s). I've been doing that since the 2006 CBS Records article was created. I've also had to do this regarding links to Columbia Records which should go to the unaffiliated former EMI label of the same name called Columbia Graphophone Company. The current CBS Records (2006) is not affiliated with any former CBS Records entity that is currently owned by Sony Music and therefore requires a separate article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:39, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

We have 1,300 incoming links for "CBS Records" and they are for the company as it existed up until 1991. These links now land on a page called CBS Records which is a disambiguation page and it lists other business entities such as CBS Records (2006) and CBS Records International which are not the correct target for any of the incoming links. I want the companies listed in the current CBS Records disambiguation page moved to "CBS Records (disambiguation)". I want a short article on "CBS Records" as it existed up until 1991. This way the 1,300 links will land on the proper business entity. We have separate article for all the companies absorbed by General Motors. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Rothorpe

CBS was a major record label for several decades, so it should have its own article under its own name. Rothorpe (talk) 17:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

CBS Records discussion

I've restarted the DRN dispute with a fresh case. The first case went way off topic over a conduct dispute. The actual content dispute is this: Does CBS Records (1938-1990) (currently in the Sony Music article) deserve its own article? And is it the primary topic of the CBS Records page? For both parties, please cite policies to support your arguments and avoid bringing up the dispute on prior consensus. Volunteers of DRN are invited to contribute their much needed opinions.--SGCM (talk) 16:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer it put this way: the 1,300 incoming links called "CBS Records" should land at an article on CBS Records as the company existed up until it was absorbed by Sony. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Norton's pitch is full of holes as the purpose of the DAB page is to direct editors to correct wikilinks which go to the wrong article. So the CBS Records article should remain a DAB page because the current incarnation of CBS Records is not related whatsoever to the CBS Records entities that existed prior to 1991 which now go by the Columbia Records and Sony Music names. Norton keeps talking about the citations regarding developments at "CBS Records" that took place BEFORE 1991. Once again, that material belongs in the Sony Music article because CBS Records was renamed Sony Music on January 1, 1991 and the current CBS Records entity founded in 2006 is not connected in any way with any CBS Records entity that existed before 1991. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:13, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are 1,300 incoming links for "CBS Records" land on a page called CBS Records with a history of the company before it was absorbed by Sony. Then change the current CBS Records, which is a disambiguation page, to "CBS Records (disambiguation)". The target of the links should be the business entity as described by the New York Times and Billboard. We have separate article for all the companies absorbed by General Motors. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:42, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It should be a disambiguation as that is the reason for DAB pages to direct readers to the correct article and to allow editors to correct their misdirected links to the correct article. The current CBS Records is not connected whatsoever with the former entities called CBS Records which changed their names in 1991. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:56, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Per Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) both entities are more then notable... See Geoffrey Hull (15 June 2004). The Recording Industry: 2nd Edition. Psychology Press. p. 115. ISBN 978-0-415-96803-4. and Robert Burnett (2 February 1996). The Global Jukebox: The International Music Industry. Taylor & Francis. p. 51. ISBN 978-0-415-09275-3.. Best we inform our reader's on this complicated situation on the articles that deal with the proper time period. Thus 2 differnt articles for 2 differnt companies should be a no brainier. And... CBS Records (disambiguation) is the best way to go I think ..because of all the links that still needs to be fixed Moxy (talk) 17:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And they would still need to be fixed as the CBS Records entities that existed prior to 1991 now go by different names. So keeping CBS Records as a DAB page is the solution as the current incarnation of CBS Records (2006) is not connected with any way with the entities that called themselves CBS Records in the past. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:01, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The actual dispute is between CBS Records (1938-1990) and Sony Music Entertainment. There's no dispute that CBS Records (2006) deserves a separate article, and both Steelbeard1 and RAN have agreed to it. As for CBS Records (1938-1990) and Sony Music, it's actually the same company, just different iterations of it. CBS Records operated from 1938 to 1990, but was renamed Sony Music Entertainment in 1991. Sort of like Computing Tabulating Recording Company and IBM.--SGCM (talk) 17:21, 29 August 2012 (UTC).--SGCM (talk) 17:21, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could we get all to read the sources provided - The new CBS Records is not related to the former CBS Records business or its artists or assets, which were acquired by Sony in 1988. In the world of business they are 2 different companies from 2 different time periods. Moxy (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This dispute is over whether CBS Records (1938-1990) deserves a separate article, not CBS Records (2006). There's already consensus that the latter does, and that it's completely separate from Sony.--SGCM (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry i thought that the refs above prove its merit? A company that was around for decades with millions of albums sold before its acquisition years later seem notable to me. They paid 2 billion for a reason.Moxy (talk) 18:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Exactly! and none of the 1,300 links are for CBS Records (2006), if there are any that I missed, please change the text in the article to point to CBS Records (2006). Please go to Talk:CBS Records where two clear choices are offered to resolve the issue. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:09, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And once again, the CBS Records entity which Norton is referring to is now known as Sony Music. The current incarnation of CBS Records has no connection with any former CBS Records entity. That's why the DAB page that goes to CBS Records exists. I've notified the admin who made the CBS Records page the DAB page about the poll. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a minute here are you saying you believe that CBS Records evolved into Sony music, rather then being a company sold to Sony?Moxy (talk) 18:35, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, CBS Records was sold to Sony in 1988, but CBS only gave Sony a temporary license to use the CBS name which led to the name change to Sony Music in 1991. This paved that way for CBS Corporation to form a new CBS Records in 2006. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:38, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It was a subsidiary of CBS that was sold to Sony, who renamed it in 1991 to Sony Music Entertainment.--SGCM (talk) 18:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so we all agree it was not the same company - so thus is should have its own article detailing its history long before Sony was a company no? CBS and Sony are like American Motors and Chrysler. One was taking over by the other but is not the same company in the begin.Moxy (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The same management that ran CBS Records on December 31, 1990 was running the company when it became Sony Music on January 1, 1991. It switched back in 1988 from being a division of CBS to being a division of Sony and Sony ran CBS Records from 1988 to 1990. Does this make it very clear that CBS Records and Sony Music are one and the same? Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:02, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then so you agree that from 1938-1988 they were not affiliated right? In fact Sony a company from Japan was not a company yet when CBS was formed in the United States years earlier. Moxy (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Subsidiaries can still be the same company after the ownership changes and a name change took place. RCA Records was founded as Victor Records and is today part of Sony Music. Despite this, RCA Records still considers its founding year to be 1901 when the Victor Talking Machine was founded. Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And we have a separate article for Victor Talking Machine Company, separate from RCA Records.--SGCM (talk) 20:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And the RCA Records article has a link to the Victor Talking Machine Company article regarding the company's history before RCA bought it and therefore entered the recorded music business which still makes RCA Records' founding year 1901. Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think hes showing you the fact they have separate articles - and thus is wondering why CBS and Sony are not the same. So as you say lets link the articles like your examples - that keep demonstration the fact that all theses companies have there own articles.Moxy (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that the CBS Records entity that existed until the end of 1990 is exactly the same as the Sony Music Entertainment entity that began on January 1, 1991 so CBS Records and Sony Music are exactly one and the same. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We all just went over this ... different companies from different countries and different time. Yes they are now the same .... but for years one paid taxes in the USA and the other in Japan... The IRS saw these companies as different entities who paid different taxes. Evolving into a company and a merger are 2 very different things.Moxy (talk) 21:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And they overlapped for about two or three years because Sony Corporation of America owned CBS Records from 1988 to 1990 after which the subsidiary changed its name from CBS Records to Sony Music.

In late 1990, CBS Records made a significant name change in preparation for the complete name changes at the start of 1991. In late 1990, CBS Records changed the name of its classical music label CBS Masterworks Records to Sony Classical Records. When I last checked, the CBS Masterworks Records wikilink redirects to the Sony Classical Records article.Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great example of what happens when people dont listen to what others are saying ...Talk:CBS Masterworks Records Only one person recommended that redirect - odd it got redirected to the wrong place considering its not what the person who asked for the merger wanted - or the other editor.... Dont see any consensus either way - should have never been moved since there was clearly a debate on the subject that was not resolved - sort of what has happened here right?. You seem to not want any CBS article even changing the merger request of others. Anyways I still dont see a lack a merit for CBS to have its own article - so many refs. Moxy (talk)

And those refs in question are about events which took place prior to 1991 when Sony Music was called CBS Records. Once again, CBS Records the company as it existed before 1991 IS Sony Music. Thay are one and the same. Steelbeard1 (talk) 00:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - [From an uninvolved editor] (1) On the question of whether CBS Records (1938-1990) should have a dedicated article: I've read some of the sources, and it appears that the events in 1990 were simply a re-name of the company. The employees & products were not altered; there was continuity. For instance, a Reuters article from 1990 writes "The Sony Corporation's CBS Records Inc. will change its name to Sony Music Entertainment Inc., the record company said yesterday." Finally, the SME article (including the 1938-90 history) is small: only 1,700 words. For these reasons, I would suggest not having a dedicated article for 1938-1990. Someday, if the 1938-1990 section of the SME article gets large, it can be split-out as its own article, following WP:SPINOUT. (2) On the question of disambiguation: That is a difficult choice. On the one hand, due to the confusing nature of the various business entities with similar names, it makes sense to have CBS Records be a full disambiguation page, so readers can see the options; on the other hand, there are a lot of links to "CBS Records", and the vast majority of those are intending to link to the 1938-1990 business entity; therefore it should link directly to Sony Music Entertainment. This is a close call, but because of the large number of existing links, I'd lean towards making CBS Records a redirect to SME, with a good disambiguation hatnote at the top of the SME article. But the disambig page option is also sensible. --Noleander (talk) 01:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The complication here is that there is an active CBS Records (2006) in operation. Before this incarnation of CBS Records was formed, the redirect to Sony Music made sense. But because of the existing 2006 version of CBS Records with no connection whatsoever with any former CBS Records entity which go by other names now, keeping CBS Records a DAB page makes the most sense so editors can fix the misdirected links to go the the correct links. Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:30, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of that complication, and I factored it into my opinion. As I said, the disambiguation issue could go either way. --Noleander (talk) 01:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

– Discussion in progress.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
• User talk:Swifty (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
• User talk:Swifty/Archives/2012 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Swifty (talk · contribs)
• Toa Nidhiki05 (talk · contribs)
• Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk · contribs)
• Adam mugliston (talk · contribs)
• 66.168.247.159 (talk)

Dispute overview

This person has not been editing respectively with other users on the page, he continues on subjects. He brought up a subject two days ago and drops it brings it up again two days later continues on turning them into pointless arguments that grow wearisome, he has resorted to name calling in one dispute, which Toa has also noted below and just seems to be very disruptive.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Both me and Toa have tried talking with the editor and it does not seem to be getting either of us anywhere.

How do you think we can help?

He was warned if he continued to be disruptive on the talk page, he'd be blocked and he continued on with Toa after the warning.

Opening comments by Toa Nidhiki05

The primary concern on this topic is Star's vendetta against succession boxes - a failed RfC from two years ago isn't strong enough to enforce here. His allegation that I am a 'fanboy' is both incorrect and derogatory, as the term essentially implies I am editing to embellish the article. That is a bit of an odd idea as a succession box is simply a factual list of the song/album that preceded and succeeded the article's topic from the top spot. I'm more than willing to discuss this and was open to changing the first issue (unsourced peaks) if consensus supported it, but sockpuppets (if the IP is indeed one) and false demeaning allegations aren't the way to go. Toa Nidhiki05 23:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars

I made 7 edits in total to the article, 4 of which were double reverts of the issues in question, so really we're just talking about two edits I did that provoked a "stand down" order by Swifty: 1) the removal of the succession boxes and 2) reverting another's edits that made changes without updating sources. That edit was in violation of WP:V and I feel my revert was valid and is not worthy of further discussion. As the core policy states, "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." I was accused of being lazy for not fixing the citation myself. As for the succession boxes, per WP:CONS, "Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus"; therefore, I argue that there was no consensus to have them added into the article since I reverted the edit. At that point, I would expect the person who added it to accept my revert or take it to the talk page. My edit was reverted and I was told by Swifty that I'm the one who should take it to the page. I believe there are ownership issues here, since Swifty will keep something he likes to be added without consensus (and revert if challenged), yet if one makes an edit he doesn't like and it's an automatic revert. It was this concern that led me to take the verification issue to a neutral talk page. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 01:03, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comments by Adam mugliston

Opening comments by 66.168.247.159

We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together discussion

Hello everyone, I'm a volunteer here at DRN. I've collapsed the discussion above, as the above sections aren't meant to be used for discussion. Rather, you should use your own section to calmly and neutrally outline your perspective on the dispute. Once you've done all done that, we can get on with starting dispute resolution proper. Let me know on my talk page if you have any questions about the process here. Thanks — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 00:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you Mr., but I've spoken my peace. 66.168.247.159 (talk) 00:54, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please, let's wait for opening comments before starting the discussion. It's not Twitter. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:58, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request - Could some of the parties please update their opening statements to elaborate on the "succession box" issue? That appears to be a content-based issue that is appropriate for DRN. Is the problem the succession info at the bottom of the article? or in the InfoBox? Or both? Are there any other content issues? --Noleander (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]