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Initially the US census listed only the category of Black, irregardless of ethnicity. As of 2020 and with increasing numbers of immigrated black ethnic groups, the census clarified the varied 'black' American ethnicities also including mixed race peoples. As public discourse regarding ethnicity has increased exponentially, our need for clarity and concise language has increased. [[User:Sociology In Action|Sociology In Action]] ([[User talk:Sociology In Action|talk]]) 08:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Initially the US census listed only the category of Black, irregardless of ethnicity. As of 2020 and with increasing numbers of immigrated black ethnic groups, the census clarified the varied 'black' American ethnicities also including mixed race peoples. As public discourse regarding ethnicity has increased exponentially, our need for clarity and concise language has increased. [[User:Sociology In Action|Sociology In Action]] ([[User talk:Sociology In Action|talk]]) 08:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

{{Ping|Taharka155}} You reverted four times, which normally leads to a block. I suggest you self-revert, see [[WP:3RR]]. --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 18:59, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


== Correcting Vague Confusing & Incorrect Language ==
== Correcting Vague Confusing & Incorrect Language ==

Revision as of 18:59, 22 December 2021

Template:Vital article

Previous discussions concerning the infobox in the top right corner of the article can be found at Talk:African Americans/summary.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 May 2019 and 24 August 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Magnifique617 (article contribs).


When did Africans become African Americans?

I just made this revert to an article. The previous editor changed African American slaves to African. My reason for reverting was that by the time of the US revolution there would have been multiple generations of slaves born in the country/colony. Was I wrong to revert? Is there a definitive point in history at which Africans became African Americans? I couldn't see anything in the article. 10mmsocket (talk) 10:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"African American" is the normal term, and so I think your revert was justified. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:34, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Obama, Kamala, and ADOS

I made a series of edits today, rearranging the intro, adding content, and clarifying info on the parentage of the first Black president and vice president in the US (given that the intro specifies 95% percent of immigrants and their recent descendants do not self-identify as African American). The entire edit was reverted by another user, who said a source from 2007 was "too old", and that a link to a Wiki page on African-American descendants of US slavery (to my knowledge the only page referring directly to such a concept) was "unjustified". The other aspects of my reverted edits were not mentioned, and no Wiki policies were cited by said user, so I reverted and made some slight changes based on their comments.

Opening this thread for the purpose of further discussion. natemup (talk) 18:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit summaries are naturally short, that's why I didn't mention policies. But I sincerely ask you to always use edit summaries and to mention potentially controversial points in them - you mentioned Obama Sr., but you didn't mention the president. Obama is identified and self-identifies as "African American", so there is no need to change to "Black American". Since the last census took place in 2020, I really think that we don't need to add a 2007 source. ADOS is a name that is not widely used, except by the group of that same name and some others, so it should not be linked prominently. I searched the source you recently added for any mention of "Negro American" and found none. It was always "Negro" without "American". --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with him being referred to as an African American, which I changed the identification back to after reverting your edits. You have blanked just about everything else, however, without any explanation. Why omit the sourced information about Obama and Kamala's parents? The re-ordering of the intro? The addition of obvious ethnic references like "Negro American" (which a simple Google search would show was very much the norm alongside "Colored" before "African American" was created in the 1980s)?
Moreover, the 2007 source has absolutely nothing to do with the census, which renders your explanation on that point moot. It has Obama self-identifying as a Kenyan American, just as he has identified as an African American elsewhere.
It seems you do not want this page to be changed at all without your permission. How that squares with Wikipedia policy I do not know. natemup (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I changed my mind about "Negro American" and "Colored American" after doing a search for "Negro American" on JSTOR. The term clearly has been used, and so it doesn't need to be sourced. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:09, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to hear you changed your mind. In the future, however, it seems prudent to not make (or blank) edits based on your personal opinions. natemup (talk) 13:21, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Natemup: For reverting, it is not necessary to cite policies. For discussion, it helps. The WP:LEAD shall summarize the article, not repeat it. In an article about all African Americans, it seems WP:UNDUE to discuss two persons prominently. Douglass, DuBois, Jacobs, Tubman, King are not mentioned. Why should we want to mention Harris ? And finally, there is WP:ONUS, and I suggest you take a look at WP:TALK. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:07, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If Obama is the first and only African American president, and that's notable enough, why wouldn't the first and only African-American VP? Plus there's the other details you blanked (even about Obama), concerning their Black parents being immigrants (or not American at all, in the case of Obama), which seem to be the real thing you don't want in the lead. natemup (talk) 15:46, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because the president is by far more notable, more known and more powerful than the vice president. Why not Douglass ? In his The Transformation of the World: A Global History of the Nineteenth Century, Jürgen Osterhammel recommends two American authors: Melville and - Douglass. Why not King ? His birthday is a federal holiday. If we select one person (Obama), we should not go too much into details, especially because the community someone chooses to identify with is determined by many factors, parents being only one of them. If we start to discuss his parents, why not his marriage, the church he attends, and so on ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Have you guys perused the archives for talks about these things?
While it might be fine to allow "Afro-Americans" to remain in the lead as an alt name, "Negro Americans" and "Colored Americans" should be removed from the lead. These are very old, outdated, and controversial terms, and they already have spots in the article: African Americans#Terminology and African Americans#Terms no longer in common use. The lead is for the most common names. See WP:OTHERNAMES: "By the design of Wikipedia's software, an article can only have one title. When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. If there are three or more alternative names – including alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historic names, and significant names in other languages – or there is something notable about the names themselves, a separate name section is recommended."
The lead, at six paragraphs, also isn't as tidy anymore. The Barack thing at the end stands out like a sore thumb. It should be integrated back into one of the existing paragraphs. I also agree with you, Rsk6400, that the lead "shall summarize the article, not repeat it." 77.240.240.235 (talk) 21:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As it is, RSK has meticulously deleted sourced content I added concerning the parentage of Obama and Harris, in the intro and the history section. natemup (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and I gave my reasons for it. The IP did the same. Not everything that is verifiable is also relevant, see WP:ONUS. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You gave no reason for the deletion of any information beyond the intro. The IP specifically said to integrate it back into one of the paragraphs, which you have repeatedly blocked. natemup (talk) 10:45, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Neither Obama nor Kamala are the genetic African Descendants of US Slavery, so for consistency they should not be referred to as African Americans. Barack Obama is a biracial Kenyan American and Kamala Harris is Jamaica American. As Wikipedia is the main source of information for millions of people globally, we should strive to be as accurate as possible, especially on this particular topic where people are seeking sources and the information is conflicting. Sociology In Action (talk) 08:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please see references 3 and 4 in the lead sentence of the article, which outline legal definitions of African American that are much broader than just "African descendants of US slavery." -- Euryalus (talk) 07:12, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Sociology in Action: Would you mind providing a source for that info so I can add it to African Americans (ethnicity)?--Taharka155 (talk) 12:51, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

African and Caribbean immigrants are not African American. Neither are Kamala Harris nor Barack Obama

I think it is a bit ethnicidal to say that African American descendants of slaves do not have their own unique culture, lineage, history, heritage, and traditions that warrant being separated from those of Africans and Caribbeans. There are wikipedia pages specifically for Nigerian American, Jamaican Americans, etc and yet there is no page that is specifically for descendants of slaves who make up that vast majority of people who identify as Black. In the introductory paragraph itself it says that 95% of African immigrants do not identify with the term African American. African Americans are their own unique ethnic group with their own unique relationship with America and the article should reflect that. Obama's father is Kenyan and his mother is a white woman. Kamala's father is Jamaican and her mother is Indian. Neither descends from those enslaved in America. Neither should be listed here as African-American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taharka155 (talk • contribs)

Fair point, though the term "ethnicidal" is a bit over he top. See WP:BOLD. Do not forget to leave an edit summary, though. Kleuske (talk) 21:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Taharka: Thanks for taking this here. As Wikipedians, we don't rely on our own reasoning (that is called "original research (OR)", but on reliable sources (RS). And reliable sources say that both Obama and Harris self-identify as African Americans. Who are we to tell an adult (let alone one of the most respected persons living today) how to identify ? BTW: "Ethnicidal" is not just "a bit" over the top. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Rsk6400: Ethnocide is the only term that can be used for the purposeful erasure of an ethnic group, which is precisely what you are doing by saying anyone Black in race is an African American. Concerning Kamala and Obama, if a Black American chooses to self identify as Chinese that does not make him Chinese. Neither Kamala nor Obama descend from American slaves. And as I've previously mentioned, Kenyan Americans, Nigerian Americans, Jamaican Americans, etc. have their own separate wikipedia pages and there is absolutely no reason for them to be lumped together with African Americans. 95% of Black immigrants do not identify with the term African American. At this point I will simply be creating a separate page for actual African Americans since this RSK individual is hell bent on erasing therAfrican American ethnicity with the claim that anyone can be an African American even if they don't identify as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taharka155 (talk • contribs) 10:00, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The separate page that Taharka155 has created can be found at African Americans (ethnicity). I have nominated it for deletion as a WP:POVFORK of this page. – bradv🍁 16:47, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Initially the US census listed only the category of Black, irregardless of ethnicity. As of 2020 and with increasing numbers of immigrated black ethnic groups, the census clarified the varied 'black' American ethnicities also including mixed race peoples. As public discourse regarding ethnicity has increased exponentially, our need for clarity and concise language has increased. Sociology In Action (talk) 08:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Taharka155: You reverted four times, which normally leads to a block. I suggest you self-revert, see WP:3RR. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:59, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Correcting Vague Confusing & Incorrect Language

African Americans are the African Descendants of US Slavery and their ethnic group is distinctive from recently immigrated (~1950's to present) black peoples from the diaspora, such as Caribbeans, Latin Americans, and Africans. For example, the correct ethnic name for a black American family from Kenya is Kenyan Americans, Brazil --> AfroBrazilian American, Jamaica--> Jamaican American. Although we all have a range of 'black' skin tones and are all Black Americans, we all have distinctive ethnic identities, languages and dialects, cultures, genetic markers, and histories. Sociology In Action (talk) 07:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Smith, Tom W. (1992) "Changing racial labels: from 'Colored' to 'Negro' to 'Black' to 'African American'." Public Opinion Quarterly 56(4):496–514 Sociology In Action (talk) 06:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Each ethnic group has their own wiki page, i.e. Jamaican Americans, Nigerian Americans, etc. Sociology In Action (talk) 06:30, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for highlighting this Tom Smith article, but it doesn't doesn't support (or even particularly mention) the argument you're making. Wikipedia articles reflect the content of reliable secondary sources on any article topic. Absent reliable sourcing, this suggested change isn't likely to be made. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:06, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As of 2021, it is general consensus that all black African descended people in the United States identify specifically by ethnic groups & generally by race. African American is not a race and since it is an ethnicity, should not be used as a general category.  https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/03/25/the-growing-diversity-of-black-america/

Okegbe T. Expanding Opportunities for American Descendants of Slavery to Build a More Inclusive and Diverse Global Health Workforce. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2021 Mar 17;104(5):1628–30. doi: 10.4269/ajtmh.20-1655. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 33729995; PMCID: PMC8103476. Sociology In Action (talk) 09:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sociology In Action: Please don't discuss in three different sections. That only serves to generate confusion. You claim that a) only descendants of enslaved Black Americans may be called "African Americans" and b) specifically that Barack Obama is no African American. Since there are many sources for the opposite, you need very good sources for your extraordinary claim, see WP:REDFLAG. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:08, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

a)yes. multiple sources provided proving general consensus/ public perception/ US Census designations as of 2020, regarding separate ethnicities. also, multiple wikipages outline distinct black American ethnicities i.e. Haitian American, Jamaican American, etc b) clarified previously why he's CONSIDERED first AA POTUS--no objection. but not extraordinary/ inflammatory or divisive, Obama stated himself what his ethnicity is, editors wanted ethnicity updated as it is public knowledge, yet wasn't listed on wiki. I live in America among these groups by the way, it's common knowledge. Sociology In Action (talk) 00:11, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please make yourself familiar with WP:RS, which is a core policy of Wikipedia. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:32, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

thank you. the sources provided are reliable. here's another one. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-changing-definition-of-african-american-4905887/ Sociology In Action (talk) 08:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I asked to you make yourself familiar with the concept of RS, because you repeatedly made points that everybody familiar with that concept will easily recognize as irrelevant (e.g. the common knowledge of the groups you live among). The text from smithsonianmag is interesting, but like the other sources you gave, it doesn't support your claim. Ira Berlin even uses "African-American" in the very sense that you claim to be not correct. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please review the following additional sources, so consensus may be achieved regarding the edit to the first paragraph of the wikipage.

Martin, Ben L. “From Negro to Black to African American: The Power of Names and Naming.” Political Science Quarterly, vol. 106, no. 1, [Academy of Political Science, Wiley], 1991, pp. 83–107, https://doi.org/10.2307/2152175.

https://aaregistry.org/story/african-american-the-term-a-brief-history/

https://yalealumnimagazine.com/articles/4216-the-origin-of-african-american

https://newafricanmagazine.com/3168/ 

Sociology In Action (talk) 09:58, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's reasonably evident you haven't read any of the sources you keep posting here, because they don't actually support your argument. You also clearly don't understand either WP:RS or WP:OR, which makes this discussion kind of pointless. As others have said, please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies on sourcing as articles can only be amended when there are reliable secondary sources to back up the changes. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:12, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I replied to your previous post before I saw this one. No, I will not review those sources for the reasons I already gave when talking about REDFLAG and because I already reviewed two sources you gave which turned out to be pretty irrelevant. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For clarity, the sources reveal the history of the term African American, who coined the term and why, how increasing immigration has forced black America to distinguish between the distinctive ethnic groups as they all have unique histories and cultures that are not interchangeable. i.e. Jamaican Americans are not African Americans. Elon Musk is not an African American. Oprah Winfrey, whose ancestors were the descendants of slaves in America is African American. My request was that the disclaimers in the definition, such as people self-identifying is incredibly vague and confusing,so should be removed. When I sought out information on the demographics of different states, I noticed that Wikipedia's information is outdated with inadequate details regarding the different black ethnic groups in several states. I will review the formatting critiques again as you have requested and will reply with a specific formatted edit. Please review the last 2 sources, as they are very informative and the African American community deserves adequate information posted about their ethnic group. This is why you keep receiving requests on this topic from different editors. Sociology In Action (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the last two sources. Neither supports your claim and the last https://newafricanmagazine.com/3168/, even has some descendants of slaves not wanting to be called African American (as well as one immigrant who is planning to go back to Africa not wanting to be called African American). Now I agree that a distinction can be useful though I note recent immigrants or children of immigrants often merge into the already existing mainstream African American culture (this is what Obama and Harris did). What we as Wikipedia editors can't do is be prescriptive and make a distinction that isn't well supported by reliable sources. --Erp (talk) 08:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion discussion on fork of this article

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/African_Americans_(ethnicity) about the fork of this article that was created today. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:18, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Obama & Harris are recognized as black Americans generally, but it is accepted that they are not specifically ethnically African Americans as of 2021. would specify their ethnicity, but allow the self identification, as this is how they were 'labeled' during their childhood. stripping Obama of his self identification is overly political/ inflammatory & ignores that any 'colored/negro child in the 1950/60's would have then been labeled as Afro/African-American by the 1980's. Sociology In Action (talk) 09:26, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When you say it is accepted that they are specifically ethnically African Americans, you need to outline what reliable global authority has "accepted" this and where/when then majority of reliable secondary sources adopted that acceptance such that it has become the consensus view on the subject. If this hasn't happened (and, bluntly, it hasn't) then unfortunately you're really just arguing your own personal opinion. Of course you're welcome to that opinion, but it's not a valid basis for Wikipedia article content. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:35, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not requesting it be changed, just that the information be revised & it already was. Sociology In Action (talk) 10:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where? Both this article and Barack Obama say Obama is African American. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:09, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

on the wiki page >He was born to an American mother and a Kenyan father. His mother, Ann Dunham (1942–1995), was born in Wichita, Kansas; she was mostly of English descent,[12] with some German, Irish, Scottish,[13] Swiss, and Welsh ancestry.[14] Sociology In Action (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sociology In Action: There is currently a deletion discussion being made for African Americans (ethnicity) if you would like to make your opinion known there.--Taharka155 (talk) 12:49, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Taharka155: Please note that WP:VOTESTACKING is considered inappropiate. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:25, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Rsk6400: I have not asked anyone to vote one way or another or to vote at all, I simply informed someone that a discussion was taking place there.--Taharka155 (talk) 18:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
WP:VOTESTACKING exactly describes what you did. Please read it. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=prev&oldid=1061607595

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