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== June 2009 ==
== June 2009 ==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Abu Nidal/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/BP Pedestrian Bridge/archive3}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Albert Bridge, London/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Magnetosphere of Jupiter/archive1}}
{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Yamato class battleship/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jarome Iginla/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ice hockey at the Olympic Games/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hastings Ismay, 1st Baron Ismay/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ten Commandments in Roman Catholicism/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Moltke class battlecruiser/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Hardy Boys/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Hardy Boys/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Wilfrid/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Wilfrid/archive1}}

Revision as of 21:30, 16 June 2009

June 2009

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [1].

Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes

Nominator(s): —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 03:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


FAC try #2. Minas Geraes was a battleship constructed for Brazil, of all countries. The news that Brazil was constructing such a ship made many countries desirous for an alliance. However, dreadnought technology quickly outpaced the 12" guns and wing turrets of Minas Geraes, and the ship faded into disrepair and obscurity. —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 03:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for a set of boo-boos with images:
Naughty Ed came on my talk and admitted he made a boo-boo (and an unintentional hoodwinking) for the previous FAC,[2] so I checked the images he pointed out and...

  • File:E Minas Geraes 1908.jpg: effectively has no source (Ponder Naval Online effectively states it as ?). Although taken at the launch of the vessel, we do not know if it is Brazilian copyright (first published in Brazil, or unpublished shot taken by Brazilian) or UK (first published in UK, or unpublished shot taken by UK). Basically a candidate for "no license" deletion.
  • File:Minas Geraes 1909.jpg: the photographer is Harry Ord Thompson, a private photographer who lives in Northumberland.[3] This photo is most likely covered by UK copyrights as Mr Thompson is unlikely to publish it in Brazil. To qualify for UK public domain, Mr Thompson, to be crass, should have passed away before 1926 (70 years and avoiding the URAA cut-off). Mr Thompson's lifespan is not available on the web, but it seems you can contact these guys, but I do not know if they do so for a price... Of course, if the photo was verifiably published before 1923, it can be hosted on Wikipedia...
    • I have sent off a message to the people you linked too; hopefully they will respond soon. —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 05:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I recieved a reply a couple days ago and forgot to post here. The UK PD is out; according to the guys you linked to, "H O Thompson was still advertising in 1939 – [their] records stop at 1940. [They] do not know when he died." We also have no indication that it was published prior to 1923... perhaps it was in a UK newspaper? Having said all of that...I replaced it already. :) —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 05:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Minas Gerais after refit.jpg: should be okay if we trust Ponder Naval Online (judging that they seem quite honest with their sources) and that SDM is Serviço de Divulgação da Marinha do Brasil. I think this is okay but please attach the license (no license tag at the moment).

Other images are okay. Jappalang (talk) 08:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Images currently in the article are verifiably in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 03:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions

These should make up for the possible loss of 2 previous images. Jappalang (talk) 08:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm going to be away for the next few hours, but I will be working on this. Apologies to Awadewit for hoodwinking her... :-/ —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 21:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ahoy there Hi Ed, that was a nice read, I've made a few tweaks which I hope you like, but "wounding the cook" strikes me as odd as a ship of that size would surely have more than one cook? Wounding a cook sounds more likely. ϢereSpielChequers 12:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are probably right; I also remember that you added a comment about this to the last FAC and I forgot about it. :-) Thanks WSC! —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 21:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ed, do your sources give any detail re crew sizes, if so I think it would be worth adding. Also the bit about former slaves could probably benefit from a link to the Lei Áurea to explain how young some former Brazilian slaves would have been at that time. ϢereSpielChequers 23:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that '"Conway's does, but I'm not sure if it would help; sure, the crew would be at x size at its commisioning, but 40 years later, with modernizations, less casemate guns, more AA guns etc. it would probably be very different. I don't want to give a misleading figure...
Oh man, that is a good link. Thanks a lot dude; I will add this in later tonight/tomorrow morning when I am on next (have to run again). —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 02:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. I've also tracked down a paragraph that partially explains the coffee boom and subsequent bust. I appreciate that crew size would fluctuate widely, especially when the shift from coal to oil removed the need for stokers. So if we only have one snapshot of crewsize you need to accompany it with caveats, but I do think the article should include some mention of the topic. ϢereSpielChequers 07:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you yet again! It is a nice little para. I'll add a mention of crew size into the infobox with a note. —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 19:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, In the early twenties the 4.7" guns were reduced from 22 to 4 but in the 30s "two extra 4.7 in (120 mm) guns were added (making 14 total)". I think 8 guns are unaccounted for. ϢereSpielChequers 16:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are very right. Am looking into. —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 05:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)][reply]
Got it.[4] The casemate guns were reduced to four; overall, the battleship still had 12. Thanks! —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 04:29, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I've had only a quick look through. The writing looks up to standard. Some of those pics could be photoshopped—is that possible, legal, ethical? I say this for the future. I see you italicise the name of the ship in the text, but not in the title. I like it, but note that MilHist ship names are often not italicised. What's the deal with the WikiProject MilHist styleguide? Thanks and well done. Tony (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's all three as long as you don't misrepresent/change the subject. I'm having my brother, who is way better than me with these things, take a stab at the lead and launch images. Re ship names: if you are referring to the actual title at the top ("Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes"), Mediawiki can't italicize article titles; same problem with novels like The Sword of Shannara. **Or are you thinking of ship classes like the Admiral class battlecruiser, where the class name is not a ship of the class? They aren't italicized because there is no ship name there. :-) Ship names are always italicized; so Minas Geraes-class battleship is right, but Design 1047-class battlecruiser is not—"Design 1047" was not going to be the name of a ship in that class. I believe this is why we have {{Sclass2}}?
    • My last guess is that you saw the New York Times quote. They aren't italicized there because they weren't in the actual NYT article; is it allowed for me to italicize them here on wiki? If it's not one of these three things, I do not know what you are referring too?
    • Thank you very much for the support! Cheers, —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 19:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some issues: there are some strange, non-standard citation templates in use that are causing an inconsistent citation style (some have p. or pp. while others use pg.). I don't know where those are coming from, but the citation style should be consistent. Also, pls review and fix all image caption punctuation to conform with WP:MOS#Captions (full sentences vs. sentence fragments). I'm also concerned that the proliferation of templates in ship articles may cause those article to run into template limits. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • On it. I've removed the periods from those captions that are sentence fragments (save for the "gun trials" one, which begins as a fragment before morphing into a full sentence) and if Ed isn't around this evening I'll see what I can do about those templates that show "pg.", even if we have to get agreement to change them at source. Steve T • C 17:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks, Steve (I tried looking up those templates at the source, but this is where it comes in handy to be an admin ... hint !!) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks for the help, Steve; a person quit at the place I work and I got her hours. Good for getting more money for college, bad for on-wiki time. The non-standard stuff is coming from {{Cite newspaper The Times}}; if we can't change them, I could convert them to {{cite news}}, though I'm not sure where the bolded issue #'s would go...or I could just copy/paste in the text generated by the templates and manually fix the pg.'s. Not sure what you mean by "template limits"...? Cheers, —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 18:48, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [5].

Abu Nidal

Nominator(s): SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Self-nomination, an article I've been writing very slowly on and off since 2005. I think it's a good length, not too long, and I believe it contains all the most significant issues. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support on the basis of 1a: beautifully written. Sourcing looks highly skilled. Disclaimer: I don't know the topic well. Just a few points you may consider:
    • Last two paras in 1948 Palestine War—can they be merged?
    • "each other's homes"—I can't work out whether it should be others'.
    • Just checking: it is in BrEng with "ize", yes? While the zed is a minority choice, it's still acceptable.
    • At the moment he shot Abu Iyad, Hamza reportedly shouted, "Let Atef Abu Bakr help you now!" a reference to the senior ANO member Abu Nidal believed Abu Iyad had planted within the group as a spy. In addition to that, Abu Iyad was on poor terms with Gaddafi, giving Abu Nidal additional cause.[60]—Comma after the quote? Perhaps avoid "addition ... additional".Tony (talk) 12:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the comments, Tony. I merged the two paragraphs, and I think it's "each other's homes," which I seem to recall from Fowler, but I'll check. I didn't consciously write in either BrEng or American; I just wrote what I'm used to doing myself, so I'll check to make sure it's consistent. I added a comma after the Hamza quote, and I've removed the additional "additional." :-) SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks JN, yes, of course it is. The spelling, Slim, is consistent, since BrEng can and still does occasionally use the zeds. I think there's no issue. Tony (talk) 15:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments *Is it intentional that publications (Der Spiegel, The Guardian) aren't wikilinked? If not, I don't mind going through them quickly.

  • Section Personality: "and the early loss of both his father and mother"—we have just said that he remained close to his mother.
  • "... and Black September, a group of radical fedayeen associated with Arafat's Fatah, who carried out operations using Black September as a cover." We are using Black September twice in the same sentence, with different meanings. I can't think of an elegant way to fix this right now. JN466 23:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Jayen, thanks for commenting. I intentionally didn't link publications, because I like to keep the number of blue links low, but feel free to add them. I've fixed the "early loss" of father and mother, and the Black September sentence. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Publication names: If you did it intentionally then I'm happy to leave it as you had it. On the referencing: Could we add the books' ISBN numbers in the References section? It makes verification easier. I could also harvardise the references for you, so the footnotes are clickable, as they are here for example (it's not needed for FA, obviously, but is user-friendly).
  • There are a few things listed in the references that don't appear in the notes section; e.g. "Pipes, Daniel (1992). "Abu Nidal: A Gun For Hire", book review, Wall Street Journal, February 18, 1992, accessed June 7, 2009.", "Abadi, Jacob (2000)."Pragmatism and Rhetoric in Libya's Policy Toward Israel", Journal of Conflict Studies, Volume XX Number 1, Fall 2000, accessed June 7, 2009." As the article seems quite fully referenced, with at least a reference at the end of most paragraphs, how do these references support article content? JN466 10:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a few unreferenced statements/paragraphs that I feel would profit from a reference: e.g. "it seems he grew to despise women ..."; the paragraph starting "Each new recruit ..." in "Nature of the organization"; in the lead section of "Political life", there are a few paragraphs that are wholly or partly unreferenced; the section "Criticism of the PLO" is likewise completely unreferenced. Would it be possible to add the missing references to these?
  • In amongst my nit-picking let me say that I find the article very interesting overall; so far I don't see any major non-compliance with WP:WIAFA criteria. JN466 19:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. :-) I'll add refs for the material you've pointed out. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the extra refs; let me know if you want more. I also added ISBN numbers. Regarding the Harvard refs, I'm not a big fan of those, though I won't object if someone else adds them. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Reading about the "First operation", I did a double-take – it was not immediately clear to me that the wording "a high-level hostage situation" in the 2nd para referred to the seizure of the Saudi embassy in Paris described in the first para. I was also left wondering if the hostages were flown places or stayed in the embassy. Is it possible to clarify this section a little? JN466 16:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(unindenting)I think this is a bit clearer: [6]

Abu Nidal's first operation took place on September 5, 1973, when five gunmen, using the name Al-Iqab (The Punishment), seized the Saudi embassy in Paris, taking 11 hostages and threatening to blow up the building if Abu Dawud was not released from jail in Jordan, where he had been arrested in February 1973 for an attempt on King Hussein's life.[1] After lengthy negotiations, the gunmen and some of the hostages left on a Syrian Airways jet for Kuwait, from where they flew to Riyadh, threatening to throw some of the hostages out of the aircraft on the way. For three days negotiations continued, aided by Ali Yassin, a PLO representative, until eventually the gunmen were convinced by the Saudi's insistence that they had no control over the Jordanian authorities. They surrendered and released the hostages on September 8. Abu Dawud was released from prison two weeks later. Seale writes that the Kuwaiti government had agreed to pay King Hussein $12 million for the release.[2]

According to Seale, the seizure of the embassy had been commissioned by Iraq's president, Ahmed Hasan al-Bakr. On the day of the seizure, 56 heads of state had gathered in Algiers for the 4th conference of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM). Seale writes that al-Bakr commissioned the attack out of jealousy toward Algeria that they were the hosts; a high-level hostage situation was therefore arranged as a distraction. One of the hostage-takers later admitted that his orders had been to fly the hostages back and forth until the NAM conference had ended.[3]

SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that is brilliant. JN466 00:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This article, to my surprise, is very detailed and comprehensive. It is also fully referenced and I have yet to spot any blatant POV. The only thing I'm against in this article are the massive quote boxes in the "Early life" section. Other than that small problem, I see no reason to oppose. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose due to image concerns (WIAFA #3):

Other images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 08:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the second image of Abu Nidal. These are believed to have been released by the Israeli army (IDF), and they're iconic images, so there's no problem using them: I'm claiming fair use because the IDF didn't respond to my queries about them.
The Rome airport image gives an impression of the carnage the gunmen left behind. Again, this is an iconic image. I used the BCCI logo partly for aesthetic reasons only, to break up the text, and partly to remind readers about the BCCI story: the image was published everywhere at the time of its closure. I don't know who would own it now that the bank no longer exists.
The Weizmann image is on the Commons and says it's in the public domain. I don't know anything about it beyond that. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 09:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the airport image as iconic of his acts, but the image is already used in its own article. Wikipedia:Non-free content#Images (#5) states it as an unacceptable use of fair use images: "An image to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)". It would be best to remove the photo here. The same reasoning can be applied to the BCCI logo (although I believe its signficance, as a logo, to Abu Nidal is very weak). Moreover, both images are lacking fair-use rationales specifically for this article (fair use images require a separate FUR for each article they are used in). If the BCCI section needs a photo, File:LordBingham3.jpg could do. File:Rom Fiumicino 04.jpg or one of the other photos in commons:Category:Aeroporto di Roma-Fiumicino could serve as a image in the Rome and Vienna section.
For Weizmann, some things on Commons are not truly in public domain (some are uploaded mistakenly or under misconceptions, others are...). How about using File:Weizmann's passport photo.jpg or File:Chairman Weizmann.jpg, which have a solid case for being in public domain compared to the Brown-Suarez photo? Jappalang (talk) 06:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced Weizmann with one of your suggestions (thank you for linking to those; when I looked on Commons for a replacement, I couldn't find one); I removed the BCCI logo and replaced it with a free image of the Bank of England; and I removed the Rome image entirely. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 07:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Single copyrighted image is under appropriate fair use to identify deceased and reclusive(?) subject. Jappalang (talk) 09:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Per the MOS, the big curly quotes on the quotations are depreciated.
  • As a general matter, I would prefer to see the references all alphabetized together, rather than having most of them alphabetized by author (through Yallop) then have another section of just titles alphabetized (mostly, as it's not very well alphabetized.) I'd alphabetize by whatever is given first in the reference. But this isn't a deal breaker, just makes it easier to find the short form refs.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean alphabetize the other references by the first word in the title? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've alphabetized the articles without bylines according to the first letter of the title, but I've kept them separate from the bylines. The curly quotes are just for the pull quotes, by the way. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that the pull quote format is depreciated, especially as our {{cquote}} template doesn't make the font size of the quote bigger. Check with Sandy however, she's the MOS guru. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
She took a look over it when I first put it up, so I'm assuming they're okay to use. I like pull quotes; they break up the text for the reader. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 14:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave that one for a true expert to opine on. I'm done, looks good on sourcing! Ealdgyth - Talk 14:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • sources : comments

Article articulates itself around 2 main books written by Patrick Seale and Yossi Melman. Both are high standing journalists specialists on the topic and without apparent bias. Quotes clearly indicates these journalists investigated a lot and interviewed numerous people. Arab secondary source could be an added value but it is very hard (if not impossible) to find. I am not a specialist of the topic but I checked in the books I have about Middle-East and I/P conflict and I didn't find any other important event related to this man. I think the work here is more than satisfying for what concerns sourcing. Ceedjee (talk) 19:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question Wikipedia has a policy that doesn't call any organization as "terrorist" for Al-Qaeda it is "Designated as Foreign Terrorist Organization by the U.S. State Department Designated as Proscribed Group by the UK Home Office Designated as terrorist group by EU Common Foreign and Security Policy" You should fix it in the lead for neutrality. It is a long article which is a major accomplishment, but I cannot review it fully since it is really long. Kasaalan (talk) 00:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree about not using the word "terrorist." I previously had "guerrilla group," but another editor changed it, and I'm currently debating with him on the talk page. I'll change it back in the meantime. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:45, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Another editor objected to "guerrilla" on talk, so we've settled for "militant." I've also added an infobox, per talk suggestion. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 11:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [9].

BP Pedestrian Bridge

Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs), Torsodog (talk · contribs), Ruhrfisch (talk · contribs)


I am nominating this for featured article because I have finally gotten a good copy editor (Ruhrfisch (talk · contribs)) involved in the article. He has cleaned up the text, gotten the images winnowed down to a useful quantity, provided us with a great template map of the entire park and helped us clean up the references. I think it is really headed in the right direction.TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:33, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. He has already agreed to close the PR when I nominated this, so the PR will close momentarily.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - as noted I did a major copy edit on this and also appreciate the very helpful most recent peer review, as well as the comments from the previous FACs andPRs. I believe this now meets the FAC criteria and will watch this FAC to see if more copyedits are needed. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC) Sorry, I somehow missed that Tony and Torsodog graciously listed me as a conominator above. Sorry, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A few comments (all trivial and none deal-breakers):
  1. Do people actually call it "the BP Bridge", or has it acquired a nickname? Big civic projects have a habit of being renamed by the public, despite their official name, and just looking at this one suggests a whole bunch of nicknames.
  2. Does the bridge have a problem with suicides? That low-barrier/freeway combination looks to have all the hallmarks of a suicide bridge.
  3. Was it assembled in situ, or built offsite and shipped to its present location?
  4. It could do with some critical comments in the "Aesthetics" section. At the moment, I see lots of people saying how great it is, but no design – let alone one this modern – is uncritically received; there must be at least some prominent Chicago and/or architectural figures who think it's an eyesore.
    • I am not as familiar with the refs on this as Tony is, but I did not see much negative criticism. There was a news story where some ordinary Chicagoans said it looked like a UFO or spaceship or some other things, but I am having trouble fidning that now. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  5. The whole "has to close during winter" thing could do with some expansion. Firstly, if it's documented, just how the decision to build something that can't operate in the cold got approved by people who were presumably aware of Illinois weather; secondly, if there are any plans to remedy this (replacing the flooring? roofing?).
  6. What happens when the bridge is closed? Does the park have to shut down as well, or are the alternative routes sufficient?
  7. Has it had any impact on the surrounding area? As those who've followed my bridge-and-rail series will know, one of my pet themes is just how big an impact bridges and stations have on their surrounding area; has it lead to increased people visiting the area and a knock-on effect on businesses near the park?
    • The whole park was newly opened when the bridge opened. The park is one of the city's most popular tourist attractions. It is hard to attribute this to the bridge in isolation since the park has more than a dozen features.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is a repsonse to points 6 and 7 really. Even when the bridge is closed there are many other ways to enter the park and the more populous areas are across the other three streets (not Columbus Drive) - part of the original purpose of the bridge was to increase ease of access to the Lakefront and points east across Columbus from the rest of the Loop. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Is "a continuous five percent slope" accurate? That would mean one end is almost 50 feet higher than the other. Certainly possible, if it exits onto a hill, but it doesn't seem all that likely, and "on the level" photos like File:Bpbridgepole-2.jpg don't show any obvious slope.
  9. This one will probably get me shouted at by Tony (the other one) and Sandy as I'm sure it breaches some policy or other, but I think it could do with some transport information (nearest station, nearby landmarks). I'm fairly familiar with 1990s Chicago (that is to say, before this was built), yet I just had to look on Google Earth to figure out "ah, that's the thing they were building next to Randolph Street Station". I'm not talking about "a block south on Wabash and two blocks east on Monroe" type directions, but just something like "to the northeast of the Art Institute of Chicago".
    • All of that is in the more general article about the park. I am not so sure how much of that should be repeated in the articles for each feature.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fair enough, although I still think it ought to at least say something like "in the north of Grant Park". I imagine a lot of people reading this particular article will be people using Wikipedia to plan vacations, to whom this kind of information is useful. I always say that WP:USEFUL is a stupid guideline; the whole point of Wikipedia ought to be to be as useful to our readers as we can. As I say, though, your article, and certainly not something I'd oppose over. – iridescent 20:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • You are a bridge guy and I am not. I personally don't think people would plan a trip just to visit the bridge. I think people using WP to plan a vacation would be taking in the whole park. Even in Chicago, no one would say go to the north end of Grant Park. Once, we say it is in Millennium Park, that is sufficient. Millennium Park is about as famous as it gets in Chicago. It is the second most popular tourist attraction in the city. More than the Sears Tower, etc. I would add anything you request, but am not so sure anything further is really relevant here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • You know Chicago far better than me; like I say, my knowledge of it is all 10+ years out of date. Also, I know it from the perspective of someone living in IN, so my view is probably skewed by a "the nearer it is to Randolph Street Station the more likely I am to know it" bias. If you and Ruhrfisch both think it's not necessary I certainly defer to you in this case. – iridescent 22:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I have not seen the bridge in person (alas) and though I love Chicago I have not been there in several years, so my knowledge is also out of date. That said, the article does describe Millennium Park as being in the northwest corner of Grant Park and west of Columbus Drive in the first paragraph of the "Preliminary plans" section, and the wikilinked map at the bottom does show the surrounding streets. I would be OK with adding something like "The new park is also north of Monroe Street and the Art Institute, east of Michigan Avenue, and south of Randolph Street." at the end of that paragraph. Would that be better? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Think that's all of them. As I say, none of them are outright problems, just things that I think ought potentially to be there. – iridescent 20:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A couple questions though. First, the following notes are only cited once:
56 ^ Jencks, p. 257
57 ^ Waters, p. 161
58 ^ Feuerstein, p. 131
...yet they are singled out as references. They provide some context and are interesting in my opinion, though listing them in a reference section seems slightly misleading to me since they don't mention this bridge. May I suggest moving them into the notes section for that reason. DVD 04:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved the single-use refs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Second, they are linked to google books with search words highlighted. Would it be better to link to the pages in google books without the search words? DVD 04:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would have to ask for technical assistance on unhighlighting because I surely can not manipulate the URL myself.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I unhighlighted them. DVD 04:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. What did you have to do?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just trimmed them back to the page number, where it says for instance pg=PA250. The main clue is after that the search words are listed with pluses between them, so you just delete that part back to the page number. Not easy to explain but pretty easy to do, just take a look at the last edit I made to the article. DVD 05:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) Looking good...

  • "north-south" en dash.
  • changed
  • "the bridge might not have been as sleek as it is." Last three words are unnecessary.
  • removed "as it is"
  • "sheet metal work totalled 5,900 field hours" Shouldn't we be using American English? "totaled"
  • changed
  • "There are convex, concave and radius areas stretching the total length of both sides of the bridge, which is 1,728 feet (526.7 m)."-->Convex, concave and radius areas stretch the total length of both sides of the bridge, which is 1,728 feet (526.7 m).
  • changed
  • changed
  • "Gehry has a long history of artistic use of scaled animals such as fish and snakes, a history that goes back to the 1960s and first appeared in his architectural designs in the 1980s." Seems unnecessarily wordy, why not "Since the 1960s, Gehry has made artistic use of scaled animals such as fish and snakes, which first appeared in his architectural designs in the 1980s."
  • nice edit. changed
  • Unlink the dates in the references.
  • There is a lot of date format inconsistency in the references in general. When I get a chance, I will format all dates to Month 00, 0000 and remove the links. --TorsodogTalk 14:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • LOL... I wish I would have known there was an easier way. I just got 3/4 of the way through the page doing it all manually before I realized you had done it already with a script! Either way, thanks for the help. --TorsodogTalk 16:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Overall, the article looks better than it did the last time I saw it. However, I still have some concerns about the "Use and controversies" section. That bit about the bridge closing during the Tori Amos concert is sourced to the Sun-Times letters page. And that source doesn't even say that the bridge was closed because "attendees were outraged at being charged for seating". The letter writer guesses that it was closed because "Tori Amos and her crew need to have the world's most expensive red carpet". Zagalejo^^^ 19:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for catching this. I changed the sentences to ... the city charged $10 for lawn seating at an August 31, 2005 Tori Amos concert, leading to protests.[46][47] On the day of the concert, officials closed the bridge—which is generally open to the public—until 7 a.m. the next day.[48] and cut out the parts not supported by the source. Is this better? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, it is remotely possible that the bridge closing had nothing to do with the Amos concert. The sources don't really give us enough to work with. The only one that mentions the bridge at all is the letter to the editor. I think David Cane makes a good point about the last two paragraphs in that section. The details don't help readers understand the bridge any better. We wouldn't be losing much if we just deleted them. Zagalejo^^^ 04:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please see my comment on the bridge closure for private events below (I am definitely in favor of keeping those in). I am on the fence about including the Tori Amos concert closure with the current refs. I think it definitely belongs in an article about the park itself and about the Pritzker Pavilion, but am not sure if it belongs here. I will defer to Tony and Torsodog on keeping this in or not. If it were deleted, the text could read something like In addition to weather-related closures in the winter, the bridge has had controversial event-related closures in the summer. These closures have been part of larger park concerns. In both 2005 and 2006, the bridge and almost all of Millennium Park was closed for a day ... Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • Final Plan:
      • From the description and the images, most of the 935 feet length quoted for the bridge is actually composed of ramps. Although the article states that the bridge is "over ten times longer than the span of street it crosses" it does not say what the length of the central span over Columbus Drive is. I think that for a bridge the actual span is a crucial factor.
        • The bridge is very curvy and I have never seen that quoted. There is likely a measure of the breadth of the Columbus Drive, but I do not have it and am not sure where to look. Would the width of the road crossed be sufficient?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I looked at every ref cited and found only this in current ref 20 from 2000: The pedestrian bridge is supposed to link Millennium Park with another section of Grant Park, Daley Bicentennial Plaza, just to its east. They are now separated by a trenchlike portion of Columbus Drive, about 150 feet wide, where speeding cars create an intimidating environment for pedestrians. This is much wider than 93 feet maximum width implied by one-tenth of 935 feet. Looking at images this also seems like it may be a bit too wide to me - looking at File:Bpbridgepole-2.jpg and using 12 feet as the standard minimum road lane width and counting the sidewalks on either side and the central divider as three lanes, I would estimate it as about 110 feet wide. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • According to the article, we do know the clearance of the bridge (14'6") which appears to be about a tenth of the width shown in the photo, so 150' (straight line span) might be about right. I think most readers would expect to see the bridge span stated rather than just the total with ramps included - particularly as the ramps are so long in comparison. --DavidCane (talk) 14:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • I added this sentence to the end of the first paragraph of the Final plan section: The width of the "trenchlike portion of Columbus Drive" spanned is approximately 150 feet (46 m).[20] Is this OK? Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • I reread the sources and combined the width sentences, so they now read According to the Chicago Tribune the width of the "trenchlike" area spanned is approximately 150 feet (46 m),[20] while The New York Times reports the bridge is over ten times longer than Columbus Drive is wide.[25] The Tribune width seems to be of the whole trench (street and sidewalks between the walls, approximate span of the bridge) while the Times says the bridge is about 1000 feet long(!) and seems to be referring to just the width of Columbus Drive itself. Since we have two reliable sources I tired to attribute and draw the distinctions as I understood them - is this better? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Might be worth explaining what the "Lurie Garden seam" is as it wasn't exactly clear even from reading the Lurie Garden article. Suggest something like "...so that the west ramp coincided with the boardwalk of the Lurie Garden seam", if I have understood it correctly.
      • "precise location of the Monroe Street Garage" seems a little over-precise. Presumably the garage covers a large area.
      • What is the weight of a full capacity load of pedestrians?
    • Construction:
      • I think the actual thickness of the stainless steel plate should be given in brackets, rather than just the gauge; e.g. (0.031 inches or 0.79 millimetres). Bear in mind that the gauge section of the sheet metal article is US-centric and different gauge systems apply elsewhere or sheet metal is specified just by its actual thickness.
      • I think there may be a problem with interpreting the source's meaning of "convex, concave and radius areas stretching a total of 1,728 lineal feet, which is the total length of both sides of the bridge". Logically, for a bridge 935 feet long, the length of both sides added together should be 1,870 feet, so something seems to be missing (assuming that the Mary Cameron Frey article in the Chicago Sun-Times is correct as to the length). The use of the definite article ("...stretch the total length of both sides...") on the BP page has a different meaning to the ASM's use of the indefinite article ("...stretching a total of..."). It might be better to just say that a variety of convex, concave and radiused panels were used.
        • It seems conceivable to me that one side could be longer than the other because of all the curvature. It also seems to me that defining length as one specific number is less meaningful as a result. There is probably a way to measure length so that 935 is correct and another so that the lineal footage number is correct. I do not know how a winding bridge is measured, but am just presenting sourced numbers as we have them.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I agree with Tony and have been thinking about Track meets where they have a staggered start so the runners all end at the same finish line. This has a lot of loops and curves and I would not be surprised at all if you got different lengths measuring each outside edge and straight down the middle of the walkway. The south side crossing Columbus is the inside curve for that broad curve and also for a very tight loop in Daley Bicentennial Plaza, while the north side is the outside curve for both of those and is the inside for only one notr as tight loop. My guess is the south side is noticably shorter. Also complicating things is the outward slope of the sides - do you measure at ground level or at the edge of the walkway? We seem to be getting into the dreaded Original Reseearch here (cue scary music). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Measuring things is something I do professionally. For a running track, although the inside and outside edges of the track are different lengths, if they are added together and the result is divided in two you will always get the the same result as if you measured the centre-line length of the track, no matter how convoluted it's route - provided that the width remains constant. As you note, the width of the cladding to the BP bridge is not constant along its length or from one side to the other, so it is probable that the lengths of the two sides are different; however, as the text stands there is an apparent disparity which could be resolved in a note. --DavidCane (talk) 14:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Use and controversies:
      • Most of the last two paragraphs of this section are not about the bridge, but the city authority's attitude to commercial exploitation of the park itself.
        • Yes the bridge was only a part of the exploitation in the last paragraph. I feel this is a relevant concern for people interested in learning about the bridge.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I am on the fence about the Tori Amos concert closure (please see above) but I think the two closures for private events are definitely worth including. It tells the reader about the use of the bridge and attitudes towards it (the public is upset when they cannot use it, private parties want to make sure they get exclusive use of it for their money). Another editor commented above that the article did not contain much negative criticism of the bridge and removing these would only make that worse (so I see this as a NPOV issue too). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • My thinking is that reviewers are requesting details about proximity to other landmarks and notable locations be included here because although they are more relvant for the park as a whole, the reader might only read this article. When discussing closures that include the bridge, the topic is equally broader in scope but relevant in this article. The general park closures belong in this article as much as the bridge's proximity to Art Institute of Chicago or Michigan Avenue does.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't believe removing these paragraphs would make the article any less neutral. These specific controversies aren't about structural flaws in the bridge (which are certainly worth mentioning). People were really complaining about the city authorities, not the bridge itself. (And as a general point about NPOV, some topics just haven't generated that much criticism. In those cases, we should be careful not to give undue weight to minor events just to appear more neutral.)
            • I'd be OK with a sentence or two explaining that the bridge is sometimes closed to the public during corporate events. But a whole paragraph about the closings seems like an unnecessary distraction. It's not like people were rioting that they couldn't get onto the bridge. Respectfully, Zagalejo^^^ 01:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • OK, I tried cutting the controversies back. I removed Tori Amos altogether and pruned the two rentals (with some details in a footnote now). The two paragraphs now read The bridge has also had controversial closures in the summer, which were related to larger park concerns. On September 8, 2005, Toyota Motor Sales USA paid $800,000 to rent the bridge and all but four venues in the park from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m.[46][47] On August 7, 2006, Allstate paid $700,000 to rent the bridge and most of the park for a day.[48][49] Excluding commuters who normally walk through the park and tourists lured by its attractions was controversial, though the city said the money raised paid for free public programs in Millennium Park.[46] How is this? Here's the diff. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • General:
      • "BP Pedestrian Bridge" is used with and without the definite article through out the page. BP bridge is also used in the image captions and the map of the park. Is the repeated use of "pedestrian" after the lead section necessary, particularly as the alternative name "BP bridge" is given there.
        • Thanks for catching this. I tried to make all uses of the full name also include the definite article and also checked all the plain "BP BRidge" uses. I am in favor of using both names within the article for variety. Some sources refer to it with the full name, so it is used some. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • --DavidCane (talk) 20:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image niggles as follows:

That is it. Images are appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 07:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [10].

Albert Bridge, London

Nominator(s):  – iridescent 22:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


And the Thames Bridges bandwagon rolls on… Although its location far from any tube station or spots on the tourist trail makes Albert Bridge less well known than its Central London cousins, it's one of the most extraordinary survivors of the golden age of 19th century experimental engineering. Despite having a design that looks like it would be more appropriate for a Wonderbra than a bridge, despite all manner of celebrities from John Betjeman to Robert Graves to Sybil Thorndike trying to get it closed, despite a truly surreal alliance of the Royal Automobile Club and Diana Dors lobbying to keep it open to traffic whatever the cost, and despite a structure that's dissolving in dog pee (literally), this spectacular failed experiment has somehow managed to stay more-or-less upright longer than any of its more conventional cousins. As with the previous entries in this series, I think this says all that could reasonably be said on the topic and I can't see an obvious way to say it better. – iridescent 22:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments Support from DavidCane. Nothing too serious :
    • Lead:
      • "modified by Sir Joseph Bazalgette into a design incorporating design elements...". Suggest changing the first "design" to "structure" to avoid the close repeat of that word.
      • The bridge wasn't designed for 20th century traffic so it can't really be said to be "poorly designed to cope" with it. Perhaps "poorly equipped"
      • Timber isn't usually described as being "corroded" but it might be "rotted".
      • Is it necessary to wikilink urine and dog?
      • "Unusual colour scheme". Unusual compared to what? The choice of colour scheme and the lighting seems to indicate a particular concern over a bridge collision. Has this happened in the past or is there something particular about Albert Bridge that makes this more likely to happen? Or is it just that the engineers have calculated that a collision would put the bridge permanently out of use?
    • Background:
      • It should be Commission of Woods, Forests, Land Revenues, Works, and Buildings, which explains why they were involved in Chelsea Embankment - neither a Wood nor a Forest.
      • If Victoria Bridge wasn't completed until 1858, the second half of the sentence "by the mid 19th century the wooden Battersea Bridge was dilapidated and considered unsafe and unpopular, while the newer Victoria Bridge suffered severe congestion." seems to be temporally at odds with the "by the mid 19th century" bit. I think a new sentence should be started after "unpopular".
      • Need commas around "in the early 1860s"
      • Need a comma after "less than 500 yards (460 m)"
      • "A compromise was reached, and in 1864 a new Act of Parliament was passed, authorising the new bridge on condition that it was completed within five years, but compelling the Albert Bridge Company to purchase Battersea Bridge at the time of the new bridge's opening and to compensate the owners of Battersea Bridge with £3,000 (about £213,000 as of 2009) per annum until the new bridge opened." This single sentence could do with being broken up. I suggest after the "within five years"
      • Need a comma after "while" in "...that, while as with a conventional suspension..."
      • Need a comma in the "1000" of "...1000 1/10-inch..."
    • Design and construction
      • As the Franz Joseph bridge was built to the same design, is it known if it suffered from the same structural weaknesses as the Albert Bridge. I'm wondering if the problem was inherent in Ordish's design or in, possibly, poor workmanship in the construction. Note n1 says that they were the only two significant bridges so it might be worth considering this issue in the text.
      • "...warning notices being placed on the bridge warning...". Suggest either removing the first "warning" or changing the second to "instructing".
      • Suggest explain what "break step" is . e.g. unsynchronised walking.
    • Transfer to public ownership
      • "By the time the new bridge eventually opened". Eventually is redundant.
      • "for the building of wide approach roads" Suggest "for building wide approach roads"
    • Structural weaknesses
      • The rods are described as steel here although they are said to be wrought iron earlier. Or is this meant to describe the cables.
    • Pedestrianised park proposal
      • Explain the background to why the RAC so vigorously campaigned against closure and how Diana Dors became involved.
    • Present day
      • Comment about urine and dog linking apply here again.
    • Notes and references
      • note 2. Suggest rephrasing to indicate that the closure of the Millennium bridge was temporary.
  • --DavidCane (talk) 00:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed re repetition of "designed" – changed.
  • Also agree about the "poorly designed" – reworded.
  • You know more than me about the technical side of corrosion/rotting, so will go with your wording.
  • Not sure about "dog", but I think in this instance linking "urine" is useful. Rotting timbers isn't something most people would normally associate with urine, and the link means people thinking "how does that work?" can find out about the chemistry of urine (which I suspect most people think of as just yellow water). And if nothing else, linking "dog" makes it clear that we're talking about the animal and that it's not some kind of technical jargon.
  • Unusual compared to the other Thames bridges, most of which are either in white or fairly bright colours; as it's counter-intuitive that pastel shades increase visibility I think it does need to be explained at length. The particular concern about collisions at Albert Bridge is that the structure is so fragile that a collision would potentially cause a complete collapse, whereas with the other bridges it would just mean a brief closure for repairs. As most of the preceding article consists of a litany of structural defects I was hoping it wouldn't need to be spelled out in detail, but can certainly make that clear if you think it's necessary.
  • Re Commissioners of Woods and Forests – well, you learn something new every day. I see the Dreaded Word "Arbuthnot" on that list, so moving quickly on…
  • Reworded to make it clearer that the "mid 19th century" refers to Battersea, not Victoria, bridge.
  • If you mean "In 1860, Prince Albert suggested that a new tollbridge built between the two existing bridges would be profitable, and in the early 1860s the Albert Bridge Company was created with the aim of building a new bridge" needs commas around "in the early 1860s", I'm not sure I agree. One could split the sentence in two at "profitable", but I think adding more commas would make it less readable without adding anything.
  • Don't agree with 'Need a comma after "less than 500 yards (460 m)"' at all, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
    • Sorry, looks like I lost a bit when I copied the text. the main theme of the sentence is the bit following in bold; the rest is a sub clause, and the last "and" should be changed for a comma to properly set it into the main sentence: "An 1863 proposal was blocked by strong opposition from the operators of Battersea Bridge, less than 500 yards (460 m) from the site proposed for the new bridge and concerned at potential loss of custom.". --DavidCane (talk) 03:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have taken out that "while" altogether as unnecessary.
  • Again, I can't see the need for a comma in "a wire rope composed of 1000 1/10-inch (2.5 mm) diameter wires". It was composed of "1000 wires", not composed of "1000" and "wires", which adding a comma would seem to signify.
  • I don't know anything about the Franz Joseph Bridge other than that it was built, its length, and the demolition date. Any sources would be in either Czech, German or Russian so I'm not holding my breath on it. It was demolished due to weakness, but this was just after WW2 so I couldn't say if that was due to design flaws or being used to carry heavy military equipment. Going into OR mode, I suspect rising traffic volumes weren't as much of an issue in the hinterland of Austria-Hungary as they were in central London.
  • Removed the first "warning" instead to avoid repetition.
  • Have done. I was a little surprised we don't have an article on it already.
  • Removed the "eventually".
  • I actually prefer "for the building of" to "for building" in this particular case, but if anyone feels particularly strongly have no problem with them changing it.
  • Oops, good catch – yes, iron rods, steel cables.
  • I don't actually know why the RAC, let alone Diana Dors, was campaigning about it (I can speculate that the RAC didn't want to set a precedent for pedestrianization, but it would just be speculation; Dors was from Swindon and I've no idea how she came to be involved). I can source that they fronted the campaign, but nothing seems to go into motives, and I can't find anything in any online archives about the issue. (It's certainly not an important enough point to make me go wade through newspaper libraries.)
  • Same response as before about linking dog urine. (I always link the first appearance in the lead and the first occurrence in the body text, if you're wondering why it's linked twice.)
  • Added a "temporary".
Hope that's all of them… – iridescent 01:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - and comments, of course - 1. You are using multiple conjunctions in a sentence that sometimes takes away from the meaning. For instance - "The bridge was built as a toll bridge, but was commercially unsuccessful, and six years after opening it was taken into public ownership and the tolls were lifted." You could remove the ", and" and substitute a semi-colon or simply a period and capitalize the six. It would create an abrupt transition that actually causes a stronger rhetorical link. It would also allow you to put the much needed comma after the word "opening". 2. The next sentence has "in place, the only". The comma causes an odd pause in meaning - instead, replace the comma with "as", "and are", or some other link instead. 3. In the first sentence of "Background", the comma transforms a set of two items into a compound sentence which can be grammatically misleading. Just remove the comma. 4. "had been linked" - change to "were linked". 5. "was meanwhile abandoned" just sounds a little off. Move the meanwhile to the beginning of the sentence to allow for a temporal context before the information. 5. "by the mid 19th century" is a clause that should be moved to the end of the sentence as the word "by" stands either as a parenthetical clause at the beginning of a sentence or a clause at the end that places a temporal context to what is said before. 6. In the "Design" section, the phrase "the bridge expired, yet delays" and the sentence becomes too complicated. Turn the comma into a period and restart the next as its own sentence. You can keep the "yet", but a "however" may seem more rhetorically correct. 7. Soon after, the phrase "In the event" seems vague. 7. In "Structural", place a comma after "In 1884" and after "Over the next three years". 8. "subject to weight restrictions from early on" rhetorically, you are looking back to something that is progressing forward. Instead, try "from the beginning" or something similar. 9. "In early 1973" needs a comma after it and the phrase "in May 1973 a campaign" can be spiced up by just saying "a May 1973 campaign" as you are using "in" quite often. The next phrase "In 1990" also needs a comma after. etc. 10. As a final note - your language is starting to become more like Fawkner or Menkin than your previous works. You are introducing some complicated causes and the technical information may become lost. Just keep this in mind. Sometimes short declarative sentences can be a relief in reading a lot of condensed technical data in a row. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed the first two. Regarding 3, I think the comma's necessary; "Chelsea, three miles west of Westminster, and Battersea on the opposite bank" carries the correct meaning (Battersea is opposite Chelsea); "Chelsea, three miles west of Westminster and Battersea on the opposite bank" seems to me to imply that Battersea and Westminster are both three miles east of Chelsea and on the opposite bank of the river. Re 5, I've slightly reworded it. I've moved the "by the mid 19th century" slightly, but think it's necessary to keep it attached to this sentence. Re 6, I've split the sentence up altogether. I think the "in the event" should stay even though it's grammatically meaningless; grammatical purity isn't the be-all and end-all, and it breaks up a rather dull section on construction schedules. Re 8, I can't see an alternative to "subject to weight restrictions from early on", other than something equally waffly like "From early on it was subject to weight restrictions"; "From the beginning" would imply since opening, which wasn't the case, while using a date would require the reader to have remembered the construction date; this paragraph is just a brief summary of the problems which have already been covered in detail in preceding paragraphs. Re 9, agree and have reworded.
    • Re your point 10, I agree that this one is a lot wordier than the earlier ones in the series, but it's (hopefully) an artifact of the particular unusual nature of this one rather than a general deterioration in style. "Stone arch bridge" is a simple concept that one can assume the readers will understand; "Ordish-Lefeuvre Principle cable-stayed bridge/suspension bridge hybrid structure" is such an alien concept – even to people with an engineering background – that the technical aspects need to be explained in far more detail than usual. Unfortunately, "brilliant refreshing prose" and "flat wrought iron bars attached at one end to the bridge deck and linked at the other end to octagonal support columns by wire ropes composed of 1,000 1⁄10-inch diameter wires" are never going to mix. – iridescent 11:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • In what I saw, there was no comma immediately after "Chelsea". "The historic industrial town of Chelsea on the north bank". If there was a comma in the place you stated, then I 100% agree with you. The set of two commas would create a parenthetical and the final comma wouldn't separate the other side of the conjunction "and" from the first clause. By the way, the 10th comment was solely that you know that I actually read these. :) Cheers. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Needs work on the prose, but there's a lot to like about article and subject. Can you find an independent copy-editor? I've looked only at the lead, which suggests that there are little glitches throughout.

  • bridge's ... bridge ... bridge ... bridge ... bridge ... bridge (end of first para, start of second). Start by removing "of the bridge" and the "bridge" before "types"; possibly reword to avoid another. Use the background context more to avoid such repetition.
  • "noun +-ing" is often clumsy: "led to the Greater London Council adding two concrete piers". Try "... Council's addition of two ...". Is that more formal and smoother? (Serious question, asking for your opinion ...).
  • "today" better after "Consequently,"?
  • for its tendency? "Due to" is avoidable.
  • Comma splice after "over it". Use a semicolon? [Bah, my mistake.]
  • I'm surprised that metric units aren't the main ones, converted into US units. it's your call, but why not be modern?
  • Remove "throughout its existence"? And "in an effort"? Try a few sharpening-up exercises in redundancy here].
  • pedestrianise ... some people would hate that; hard to see how it could be expressed as neatly, though.
  • "to prolong" just a little nicer.
  • Another "due to (these measures)", so I'm glad we got rid of the first one.
  • However, it's condition continues [it's very clear "it" refers to the Albert here].
  • "Due to" a third time ... "from traffic load".
  • This is slightly long and cumbersome: "In 1992 the bridge was repainted and rewired, and now has an unusual colour scheme designed to increase its visibility in poor lighting conditions and hence avoid damage from collisions with shipping, and is illuminated by 4,000 bulbs at night."
  • Very effective final sentence (stub is rarely good, but is here). Tony (talk) 12:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The "bridge bridge bridge" issue is one I'm aware of – and it affects everything in this series – but it's a tricky one to get around. Because "Albert Bridge" is the name and obviously needs to be spelled out in full, "road bridge" is what it is and needs to be spelled out in full, and "cable-stayed bridge", "suspension bridge" and "beam bridge" are technical terms that again need to be spelled out in full, at least on first use, while the bridge was built by the Albert Bridge Company, there isn't an obvious way round it, even though it leads to repetition of "bridge". Because there were two construction projects running concurrently – Chelsea Embankment and the bridge itself – on quite a lot of occasions "it" isn't sufficient as it needs to be clear which project's opening date etc is being discussed. I've done a second pass through and removed as many instances of "the bridge" as I can without distorting the meanings or making sections unclear, but I'm not sure it can be "de-bridged" any further.
    • Personally, I think "led to the Greater London Council adding two concrete piers" is clearer than "Council's addition of two…" – but I have no strong opinions either way. If you (or anyone) thinks rewording would be an improvement, feel free.
    • I've cleared out any "due to"s that aren't attached to nouns/pronouns.
    • Disagree about the comma splice in "Nicknamed "The Trembling Lady" because of its tendency to vibrate when large numbers of people walked over it, signs at the entrances warning troops…" It could be split into two sentences – "Nicknamed…" and "Signs warn…", but I don't think this sentence is unreasonably long and I don't see that splitting would add any clarity; beeping the sentence together makes it clear that the nickname, the signs and the vibration are all connected.
    • Totally disagree about metrication of units. This is an article in British English, on a British topic, and Britain has not adopted the metric system. For articles on topics that potentially relate to other countries, or in fields such as aviation where metric units are standard even in non-metric countries, metric units are appropriate to allow comparison, but neither is the case here.
    • I can't see a problem with "in an effort" in this particular case. It needs to be made clear that it was an attempt to limit the number of vehicles using it. Likewise "has remained open to vehicles throughout its existence" – I can't think of any rewording that wouldn't lengthen it unnecessarily and/or require negatives. I'm not sure that just "It has remained open to vehicles" would make it sufficiently clear that the meaning it "it has not closed to vehicles at any point", not "it is not currently closed to vehicles".
    • Agree, have split the sentence.
I think that's all of them. Of all this series this is the one that was always going to cause problems. As per my comments to Ottava above, because it deals with a particular obscure type of design that a reader can't be expected to be familiar with, it needs to go into far more dull technical detail than the other articles (I can say "Chelsea Bridge is a suspension bridge" and assume people will understand what I mean, but "Albert Bridge is an Ordish–Lefeuvre Principle bridge" needs a long explanation). Plus, the fact that three separate projects are being discussed – Albert Bridge, Battersea Bridge and Chelsea Embankment – mean it needs to constantly be made clear which project is under discussion. – iridescent 16:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image concern as follows:

  • File:Albert Bridge 14 May 2006.JPG: the source contradicts the GFDL license here by stating "All photos are copyright protected." The uploader's only media actitivies are to upload some photos from amoore's Pbase collection. I have asked for him to confirm his or her identity that should eliminate such ambiguity in the future.[11]

All other images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 03:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment

Shouldn't the article mention that the bridge linked Middlesex and Surrey? At the time it was built it was partly in each county (assuming centre of Thames as county boundary). Mjroots (talk) 14:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re linking Middlesex and Surrey, I'm not sure it warrants mentioning; the boundaries were redrawn in 1889, so it only linked them for 16 years. By this period both Battersea and Chelsea had been swallowed by the growth of London and were under the de facto control of the Metropolitan Board of Works, despite formally being in Middlesex and Surrey.
I prefer to keep the {{IoE}} template if possible, as using the template means that if/when English Heritage change the database format, all listed building articles can be updated with a single edit to the template, as opposed to updating the 700+ articles using it individually. The sensible thing would be to make {{IoE}} consistent with {{citation}}, but it would be harder than it sounds, as every single usage of it would then need to be checked. – iridescent 15:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [12].

Magnetosphere of Jupiter

Nominator(s): Ruslik, Serendipodous.


I am nominating this for featured article because it is a vital article for the Solar System WikiProject. It was which written in the past several month essentially from the scratch and passed a peer review. I should warn that the article is complected and requires an effort to understand. I tried to make it as simple as possible, however, magnetospherics is a complicated subject, which is difficult to write about. I still hope that the complexity of the article will not be dissuaded reviewers from reviewing it. Ruslik_Zero 18:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is co-nomination with Serendipodous. Ruslik_Zero 13:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. :-) Serendipodous 15:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: The complexity of the article does not dissuade me from reviewing it, but from what I've seen so far, it will likely dissuade readers from reading it. In order to help remedy this, I have initiated a line-by-line review which, per this suggestion by SandyGeorgia, is being listed at the article's talk page. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed everything except that magnetic field and magnetosphere are not the same thing. Ruslik_Zero 10:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Would you mind responding to the concerns individually on the talk page? It would make more sense to keep any discussion which might arise (such as magnetosphere vs. magnetic field) connected to the relevant concern rather than cluttering up this page. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 04:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll leave sporadic comments here as I go through the article, as I can't review it in one sitting. But so far, in the lede, several possessives disrupt the flow of the article when read out loud (minor issue). In the discovery section, you have to make sure you don't leave the audience behind. I'm sort of knowledgeable in this stuff, but I got lost in the DAM until I realized you were talking about the wavelengths of the particular electromagnetic emission. You may want to link to wavelength there somehow. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 07:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. Ruslik_Zero 10:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is located at the distance from 45 to 100 Rj (where Rj=71,492 km is the radius of Jupiter) from the planet at the subsolar point; the unfixed point at which the Sun appears directly overhead.[6] - an emdash might be better instead of the semicolon, but that's not my main complaint. The wording about the positioning of the subsolar point is not clear; do you mean that the subsolar point moves? If it does, depending on what? Variations of the solar wind, orbital elements of Jupiter, rotation of the planet, or other factors? Also, "at the distance" sounds awkward, for some reason. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 08:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. Ruslik_Zero 10:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "et al." vs "et al.". (italics or not).
  • Number of authors names mentioned before "et al.": The most common convention is to name only the first author before the "et al." this article almost consistently uses 3. Which would be OK if used consistently, but there are also references that list all 10+ authors.
  • "full names" vs initials: Some refs list the full names while others use only initials. The article should decide on which the use consistently. (Also if initials are used decide on a format consistently ("Doe, J.W." vs. "Doe, J. W." vs. "J.W. Doe" etc.)
  • Use of "and" with multiple authors: decide whether not use "and", and whether it should be precded by a "," ";" or nothing at all.

(TimothyRias (talk) 09:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Fixed I think. Serendipodous 10:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You missed a couple of extra spaces. (I fixed them.) Just one more thing: The citations mix "American" and "British" styles for capitalization of titles. I usual prefer having only one of the two styles, but I'm not sure that that is generally agreed upon. (TimothyRias (talk) 10:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]
I don't know the difference between American and British capitalisation standards. Serendipodous 10:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
American: capitalize all nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs.
British: Capitalize only first letter and proper nouns. (TimothyRias (talk) 11:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Fixed. I did keep one phrase capitalised, though, because it formed an acronym. Serendipodous 12:00, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Almost everything adressed. The only issue remaining is the number of authors mentioned before "et al." some refs have 2 others have 3. (TimothyRias (talk) 10:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]
I only found one, but it's fixed. Serendipodous 10:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—It satisfies the FA criteria, although I found a few pretty minor issues:
    • "Jupiter's magnetic field forces the torus to rotate with the same speed and direction as the planet's rotation." By speed, I assume this means angular velocity? Or perhaps 'angular speed' would work here?
Fixed. Serendipodous 05:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image concern as follows:

Other Images are appropriately sourced, and verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 03:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support A shining example of a featured quality article. A good article that provides a well-balanced and informative coverage of the subject. My only minor concerns were the rewording of some minor phrases like "particularly interesting" as mentioned above but most of these earlier problems seem to have been attended to. Nice work!. Dr. Blofeld White cat 15:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for support. Ruslik_Zero 16:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm finding jargon and linking issues throughout (what's a tail sheet current?). And an inline to be resolved in the lead. Can someone please go through and make sure all technical terms are defined or linked on first occurrence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed your inline issue, but it is kinda difficult to decide what's jargon and what isn't. Serendipodous 19:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Yamato class battleship/archive1}}

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [13].

Jarome Iginla

Nominator(s): Resolute 22:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Lets see if we can go two for two on hockey articles! I've been working on this article off and on for a couple months now. Its had a PR, its passed GA and several people have reviewed the article. After some final work, I believe this article is ready to face the scrutiny of the FAC process. All of the images are free, and all sources should be formatted properly. I do have a mild concern about the City Lights News reference, but wanted to see what reviewers have to say about it. This is the first BLP article I've taken to FAC, so go easy on me.  ;) Resolute 22:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support My general impression is positive, and my comments are mostly minor:
  • Emulating Fuhr, he played goal in his first two years of organized hockey before switching to the right wing. - makes it sound like Fuhr switched to right wing.
  • Despite hockey's status as a sport dominated by white players, Iginla rarely experienced any difficulties in minor and junior hockey because of his race. - I'm not too sure what this sentence is trying to tell us. "Person doesn't suffer racist abuse" surely ought to be the norm, not something noteworthy. Does minor league ice hockey have a reputation for institutional racism? One the other hand, it says "rarely" which implies that there were some difficulties but doesn't say what.
  • As a result of his success, he and the Flames struggled to agree on a new contract following the season. - surely he'd have had more of a struggle agreeing a new contract if he'd played abysmally ;) Maybe something like "His success added complexities to contract negotiations" would be better?
  • There are occasional uses of informal terms which ought to be changed for something more formal e.g. when he suited up for his 804th career game
  • a disappointing playoffs led many to question if Iginla had been playing with an injury - who were the many?
  • All of the above have been reworded.
  • The tone of the article is overwhelmingly positive towards the subject. Now, this is far better than having the opposite, but it does lead to concerns about hagiography. Reading the article we hear that this guy sets goalscoring records, captains his team and is a really nice guy too. So why isn't he as well-known as Wayne Gretzky? Presumably there are aspects of his game which have weaknesses. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, fame is relative. Iginla is rewriting the Flames record book, but Gretzky rewrote the league record book. Also, Gretzky played a large chunk of his career the major media centres of Los Angeles and New York, while Iginla's been in Calgary his entire career. The most common fan complaint about Iginla is something I have not been able to find in a RS - that he has always turned down invitations from Hockey Canada to participate in the world championships. Some don't like that he apparently doesn't have enough "pride" at wearing the Canadian jersey as they would like. Lacking a reliable source for the argument though, I've not included it. Resolute 14:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – First reaction here is also positive. Here are comments from the entire article. Normally I like to split them up, but I'm very busy here and want to get this review done in one shot.

  • Why is there a comma after the birth date in the lead?
  • Early life: "In addition to hockey, Iginla played baseball as a young man, where he was the catcher on the Canadian National Junior team." I don't see anything having to do with location before the comma, so try switching "where" to something else.
  • Both comma issues fixed
  • NHL career: Was there any media attention toward Iginla making his debut during the playoffs, or is that more common in hockey than I think?
  • There wasn't much media attention, beyond the local coverage, that I was able to find. It is far more common for players to go to the minors when their junior season ends, but it isnt unheard of to go to the NHL directly. (Brennan Evans is another example of a Flame who's debut was in the playoffs)
  • The Montreal Canadiens link here can be dropped, since there is already one in the previous section.
  • Captaincy: "He was expected to play in the 2007 NHL All-Star Game in Dallas, however a knee injury forced him out of the game." Make the comma a semi-colon?
  • I see "career low" and "career-high" a couple sentences apart.
  • "He finished the season with 35 goals and 89 points, however a disappointing playoffs led to questions on whether Iginla had been playing with an injury." Another comma that should probably be a semi-colon.
  • International play: "as Canada won its first Olympic gold medal in 50-years." Remove hyphen.
  • Playing style: "Iginla is considered to be one of the pre-eminent power forwards in the game today." Watch time elements like "today"; I would just drop the word.
  • Off the ice: "Iginla married his high school sweet heart". Is "sweet heart" normally two words in Canadian (British) English?
  • "In 2002, while in Salt Lake City for the 2002 Winter Olympic Games". Drop one of the 2002s.
  • Above issues fixed
  • Does he have any endorsements besides Scotiabank?
  • Probably. I'd have to search for it. The statement was a compromise with an editor who felt it was very important to have the Scotiabank reference in.
  • Is a page number possible for reference 61 (Globe and Mail)?
  • I'd have to go to the library to get the back issue, but that will have to wait at least a week due to some issues irl.
  • I agree with Oldelpaso on the Playing style section—it reads like his game is universally strong. Are there any criticisms of his game that are regularly provided by the hockey media?
  • He is known as a player who has to be "riled up" at times to be truly effective. I'll have to search for some RSes.
  • Thanks to Maclean25, who provided me with the article, I've added a couple of known weaknesses in his game to the playing style section from a 2004 scouting report. Resolute 23:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You may have to explain what you are looking for wrt non-breaking spaces, lol. Otherwise, everything else should be fixed, pending a source search. Thanks, Resolute 15:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Non-breakers are supposed to be in between units of measurement; many of the recent sports FAs contain them in statistics, like this: 24 goals (click edit tab to see formatting). I personally don't care that much, but there are many others here who do. If you want help with this, just let me know. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – A very good article that is at a higher level than the other sports bios I've seen come through here lately. Sourcing and writing are both solid, and photos are also quite good. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A focused and well-crafted article. The City Light News reference which seems to be a reprint of an interview in Sports Spectrum magazine which seems ok but if you like you can reference it to "Superstar holds firm to faith: Jarome Iginla praises God for his scoring success; Don Retson. Edmonton Journal. Apr 20, 2002. p. B4." (but I haven't seen the 'mother is a Buddhist' thing anywhere. maclean 05:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (I may or may not do a full review)

  • Oppose for now, 1a, possibly 1b, and 1c. There are some prose issues to deal with, below, but not many. I ran across some possibly irregular use of sources, also listed below. My third concern is that I don't see anything here about race. I know black hockey players deal with such issues—you didn't find any sources that talk about Iginla dealing with racism on the ice? I have read similar stories about Anson Carter and others, so I know they exist. I see there is an Iginla biography at the bookstore—did you review its applicability?
  • I had a statement in his early life section where Iginla stated he rarely experienced any sort of racism that I removed per a suggestion above. ([14]). However, while Iginla has talked about his race and hockey, I've not come across any significant story of racial prejudice. I will add another good anecdote to his early life section, however. As far as the biography goes, are you referring to The Sensational Jarome Iginla? I haven't read it, but given it's evident style, I am not certain it serves as anything more than a Hockey Canada self-promotional puff-piece. I will check it out, however, to see if there is anything of value. Breaking the Ice has a chapter on Iginla, but given the author seems to have written the book with the preconception that every accolade a black hockey player failed to win was the direct result of racism, I simply can not take it seriously on this topic without a second RS to support the belief, and I have found none.
    • "and finished as the runner-up in voting for the Calder Memorial Trophy as rookie of the year" What do you think of mentioning here who won, so we don't have to go look it up? (Bryan Berard? Seriously?)
  • Yeah, seriously. And added.
    • "After losing all three games, scoring only three goals, the Flames agreed to a three-year contract worth US$4.9 million, plus bonuses." Careful not to imply something that the source may not. I didn't go digging for the source, but we need to check this.
  • Fair enough. Simplified the statement to state only that he missed the first three games.
    • "Coming off an invite to Canada's Olympic summer camp before the season" What does this mean? He went or he didn't? Also, "coming off" is too colloquial, I think.
  • Fixed
    • "... as Iginla finished tied in voting points with Canadiens goaltender José Théodore who was named MVP based on receiving a greater number of first place votes" This is ungainly and could bear revision. Among the issues, the "finished tied" is redundant; you can just write that someone "tied" and it has the same meaning.
  • reworded
    • "However, one voter, believed to be from Quebec—Théodore and the Canadiens' home province—inexplicably left Iginla off his ballot entirely." Hm, careful. The source reads "rumoured", which is a fair bit apart from "believed". Overall, that bit seems like irresponsible journalism. Also, what is "entirely" doing?
  • I've reworded to rumoured to match the source used. And while Dowbiggin might well be my least favourite sports journalist, the fact that a writer from Quebec deliberately left Iginla off is not really a rumour. Breaking the Ice discusses it as well, and I could probably find more sources if I spent some time digging through the Herald and Sun archives from the time of the vote.
    • "Iginla was a member of Team Canada's Olympic gold medal–winning hockey team in 2002." Is that an en dash? Should be a hyphen.
  • lol, oops. Fixed
    • "This did not come to pass, as he signed a two-year ..." Yuck.. much prefer "These fears were unfounded, as he signed ..."
  • Good point, reworded
    • Regarding his being the first "black" captain... you say it outright in the lead, but later on you mention that this status is dubious. That's a bit misleading.
  • This kind of lies in the question of "how black is black", which is why there is some debate. I've reworded the lead to match the body
    • "said former captain Craig Conroy of his decision to relinquish the captaincy to Iginla."
  • Not sure what you are concerned about here.
    • "his $7-million per season wage was considered to be less than he would have received had he tested free agency." Why the hyphen? And, considered by whom? This is the problem with using passive tense. The source is subscription-only.
  • The hyphen is because I get nailed on that all the time and haven't quite figured it out yet.  ;) And yeah, Duhatschek left the Globe not too long ago, but the paper immediately threw all his work behind paywalls. I was trying to show the contrast in this contract deal vs his first two, which were quite contentious. I removed everything but what his pay is.
    • Why "quarter-finals"? The source uses no hyphen.
  • I believe that "quarterfinals" and "quarter-finals" are both valid, and since I am not using a direct quote, went with what I typically use. It's a carry over from my work with junior articles, as the WHL often hyphenates the words.
    • "Not a fast skater, opponents are able to restrict his ability to move if his teammates rely on him to lead the offence too much." Dangling modifier ("not a fast skater" incorrectly modifies "opponents") and... I'm not sure about using a 5-year-old scouting report to make a general statement written as if anyone has said it still applies today. I would prefer you qualify that this came from a scouting report.
  • If I didn't think it was still applicable, I wouldn't have used it.  ;) I've tried rewording, though I'm not entirely sure I am satisfied with the new wording.
--Laser brain (talk) 17:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate the review. Hopefully I have addressed your concerns. Resolute 23:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, I think everything has been addressed. The Conroy thing was a mistake; I was going to comment that I thought coaches had to transfer the captaincy, but I was mistaken. The Sensational Jarome Iginla doesn't look too serious. Good work! --Laser brain (talk) 02:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: all images are self-taken and appropriately licensed for free use. No issues. Jappalang (talk) 08:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • FLAMES SUCK!!!!111!! Er, I mean Comments - Generally excellent, as expected. I've done some copyediting and light rewriting that you might want to have a look at to make sure it's okay: [15] A few issues before I support:
    • "Iginla scored 33 goals and 71 points in 1994–95, his first full WHL season." We could maybe do with some explanation of what made 1993-94 not a full season for him; did he join the team part way through the season, or was he just not a regular player, or what?
    • The section on the Hart voting is slightly confusing; why was it inexplicable for a voter to leave Iginla off his ballot?
    • The timelines are slightly confused in the last paragraph before "Captaincy". What is meant by "2002 season"? The use of the phrase "before the season" in the next sentence suggests that the season being referred to is the same as the one in the previous sentence, which I gather it isn't.
    • "Iginla fell back to 67 points in 2002–03 as he battled injuries..." Did he miss many games as a result of these injuries, or was it just that they diminished his performance?
    • "He was a leader on that team and old enough to where he'd been there a long time." This sentence doesn't make any sense to me; I see that it's faithfully copied from the source, but if I'm correct that it doesn't make sense it might not be the best choice to include.
    • The article varies on the capitalization of "Most Valuable Player"; is there a reason for this?
    • I don't spend a lot of time in sports articles, so I'm not sure what conventions are regarding tone, but much of the language in this article seems more in keeping with the language of sports journalism than what I'd initially expect from a Wikipedia FA ("suited up", etc.). I won't oppose over it, but I wanted to bring the point up for discussion.
    • There's a section devoted to international play, but international tournaments are also mentioned in "Junior career" and "NHL career"; is there a reason for this?
    • The medal record table does not include the 2006 Olympics; I presume that this is because Canada did not medal there, but I'm concerned that the omission makes it look like Canada has won gold at every event at which Iginla has competed. Thoughts? Is this a well-established convention in sports articles?
    • Do we know when he was married? The year seems conspicuously absent from the sentence describing his marriage. To me, anyway.
That's about it; I look forward to supporting. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 08:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [16].

Ice hockey at the Olympic Games

Nominator(s): Scorpion0422 18:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I'm taking a break from my evil mission to turn the site into Homerpedia. After a lot of hard work and time wasting, I'm finally ready to try this. My goal is to get it as the TFA at some point during the 2010 Winter Olympics. There are two possible concerns. 1) length. At 6895 words it's longer than your average FA (including Canada, Barack Obama, William Shakespeare, Alzheimer's disease, King Arthur and Western Front. Although, to be fair, those pages all have a lot of branch articles) although I don't think it's of much concern. 2) Lack of a bolded title. I couldn't think any that didn't seem extremely forced, and I am open to suggestions. Enjoy! -- Scorpion0422 18:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – I've been doing some light copy-edit work during the last couple of days. Will report back when I finish. One thing stopped me in my tracks, though: "The number of teams was increased to 14 so that there would be eight teams and a round-robin tournament could be used." Eight teams in what? The second round? This bit from the Rules section needs some fixing. Giants2008 (17-14) 15:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Changed wording to "The number of teams was increased to 14 so that a preliminary round-robin tournament consisting of eight teams could be held. The top two teams from that round joined the "Big Six" in the finals." Does that help? -- Scorpion0422 16:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support – As I said up there, I went through the whole text and gave it a light touch. Didn't see the need for much more, since it's a great read overall. A comprehensive article that's nicely written and sourced. Only complaint I have is that I thought more hyphens could have been sprinked in here and there, but that's not enough to prevent my support. If it becomes an issue, I'll be happy to assist. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. My only real concern is to wonder why the lead mentions the 1924-88 format for determining the medals but not the current format. Would it not make more sense to focus on how it is done now, and leave the historical process to the history section? Otherwise, all I found were some very small formatting/copyediting issues which I've corrected. Resolute 17:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments — In general, this seems an extremely good article, well written, lots of well-sourced info, and images. I'm ready to give my approval once the comments below are addressed. Parutakupiu (talk) 00:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Lead:
      • I'd rephrase the first two sentences like this: "Ice hockey has been played at the Olympic Games since a men's tournament was introduced at the 1920 Summer Olympics. In 1924, it was transferred permanently to the Winter Olympic Games programme."
        • I used half of your suggestion. I think the current opening sentence works best, but I switched the second to "The men's tournament was introduced at the 1920 Summer Olympics and was transferred permanently to the Winter Olympic Games programme in 1924."
      • I think that the sentence "The women's tournament was first held at the 1998 Winter Olympics." is kinda floating there in that paragraph. since there's a special paragraph just for the women's tournament, I'd take out this sentence.
        • I wanted to try to include a mention of the women's event in the opening lead, just so that it doesn't look like it's an afterthought.
          • OK. I concede on this, since you mention both tournaments in the first paragraphs and then specify more about them on the following ones.
      • That last paragraph is time-dependent, no? I don't think it's necessary at all to appear in the lead.
        • Removed.
    • Inception as an Olympic sport:
      • How about changing the section title to a more simple "Olympic inception"?
      • Italicise foreign words/expressions/names like "Ligue Internationale de Hockey sur Glace" (and give English translation)
        • Added italics, but I'm not sure if a translation is needed. My French sucks, but I think it's along the lines of "International Ice Hockey League"
          • Your French sucks but you can actually translate it; others might not. The section is petite, a translation wouldn't bulk it up.
            • My point was that it is basically just the French translation of "International Ice Hockey Federation" (and, I just found out that that is still the French name of it).
      • Programme or program? I've seen both forms up to this part. Stick to one English variant.
        • Went with programme.
      • In the last paragraph, I'd remove the last two sentences as they're not specifically related to this section. On the third sentence, give more emphasis to ice hockey by saying "Together with figure skating, ice hockey was permanently integrated..."
        • The last two sentences are just some background information. They are a little off-topic, but I think they assist the reader's overall understanding.
          • Like you said, they're a bit off-topic; I believe that if you remove them, readers won't miss it. It's your call, but if you decide for their removal, take attention that this paragraph will become too small.
            • That was on my mind. I could go either way I suppose.
    • Rules:
      • Why don't you start this section with the "Game rules" sub-section?
        • My rationale was that it went in order of how the process works. First qualification, then player selection, then the actual playing of the games, then doping. They just seemed to fit in that order really well. I could switch them if you like.
          • I understand your logic.
    • General:
      • Some image captions are too long. Do not specify a fixed width; let the "thumb" parameter do it.
        • I assume you are mainly referring to Image:Slovakia men's ice hockey team in 2002.jpg which has the caption "In 2002, NHL players were allowed to participate, but the league did not go on break during the preliminary round. Teams participating in that round, including Slovakia (2002 team pictured), were affected because they were denied the full use of their top players." I have tried shortening it.
          • How about this: "In 2002, Slovakia's team (pictured) was affected by NHL's late season break as they were denied the full use of their top players in the preliminary round."
            • Sounds good to me.
      • Thanks for the review. -- Scorpion0422 15:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—I decided to give my approval regardless of what is decided about the first section naming issue. It's really a minor thing that does not obscure the high level that this article already presents. Parutakupiu (talk) 00:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) It looks good, and I've been doing spot copy-editing. I have a few issues, though:

  • I saw both spaced en dashes and unspaced em dashes in there—I changed one pair of spaced en dashes to em dashes; make sure there aren't any other inconsistencies. Please keep it consistent.
  • In your research, did you find information about Slovakia's reaction to being relegated to the bottom division while the Czech Republic was retained at the top? I would imagine they would be incensed about getting such a raw deal.
    • I can't remember, but I probably would be able to find something about it. However, the divisions have more effect on the World Championships than they do the Olympics, and more detail would venture off-topic (which I normally wouldn't mind, but this is a very long article).
  • "The tournament format drew criticism for not allowing all teams the full use of their NHL players during the entire event." I don't understand what you mean by "full use".
    • The 8 teams that participated in the first round did so without NHL players. The NHL players (and the top 6 teams) started playing in the second round.
  • "The NHL went on break for the duration" "went on hiatus" is slightly more idiomatic, but I'll leave it up to you.
    • Fixed.
  • "The number of teams was lowered to 12; the top six teams did not get a bye and played five preliminary round games." Maybe I missed it, but was there ever a time when the top six teams did get a bye?
    • Yes, in 1998 and 2002.
  • "The Japanese women's national team had failed to make that year's World Championships." I fail to see how this is relevant.
    • It's establishing why the Nagano committee was against adding women's hockey. They thought there was no point in adding it, since their team wasn't great and there was little public interest.
      • Can you somehow explain this in the article? This factoid stands out like a sore thumb in an otherwise well-organized article.
  • "measuring 61x26 metres (200x85 feet), instead of the international size of 61x30 metres (200x98.5 feet)" Spaces before and after the "x"s per MOSNUM. There are a couple more examples in the article.
  • Check your logical quotation: sentence fragments do not have the quotation marks outside the punctuation. I fixed this example: "work day and night to have [NHL players] in Sochi."-->"work day and night to have [NHL players] in Sochi."
  • "According to NHLPA executive director Paul Kelly, the players want to return to the Olympics and will fight to include the ability in the next agreement." "fight" carries the wrong message I think, especially considering the nature of hockey games ;)
    • Fixed.
  • (in the table) "The First Winter Olympics athlete to test positive for a banned substance" Is "First" supposed to be capitalized?
    • No, it originally didn't have the "The" in it, and when I added it, I forgot to de-capitalize the "First".
  • In the "participating nations" table, you need to use something besides or in addition to color to denote that "the nation did not exist with that designation at that time". Dabomb87 (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As a follower of hockey, and having extensive knowledge of the subject at hand, I am quite impressed with the article. Very detailed, heavily sourced, plenty of images, it all adds up to a great article. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with comments. Geez, this is good. Looks carefully prepared—I didn't find much. The level of detail seems appropriate. Nice work!
    • If you're looking to trim some fat from the lead (and you should), I'd start with the mentions of the non-dominant "other medal winners". Also, don't use "include" if you're going to list them all—just use "are".
      • West Germany isn't listed in the lead, which is why "include" is used.
    • It stood out that you used "was initially reluctant to" twice in the lead. Can you mix it up a bit?
      • Switched the second use to "was hesitant to".
    • Don't specify acronyms you don't use again (LHG)
      • Removed.
    • "In 1995, an agreement was reached that allowed NHL players to participate in the tournament" Can we switch this from passive to active and say who agreed? Was this an agreement just among IOC members, or between the IOC and various leagues?
      • I clarified that bit.
--Laser brain (talk) 18:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 18:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image concerns as follow:

  • File:Ice hockey pictogram.svg: is this a representation of the official logo? If yes, is the logo copyrighted? If not, why should an unofficial logo be the representation of this event? Transcluding a design does not bestow new copyrights (no originality introduced); in other words, the SVG should follow the license of the original designer only.
    • It is one of many sport pictograms that was created specifically for wikipedia. [17] These pictograms are generally used on all Olympic sport pages, and this just follows the standard.
  • File:Ice hockey layout.svg: what is the inspiration for the base layout of the field (source of dimensions for the field, etc)?

Other Images are verifiably in public domain or appropriately licensed. Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 09:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I think there is an image overload near the end. Why are there so many game shots there? I hope it is not just to pad the whitespaces at the right of the table. Judicious and appropriate use of images gives a better presentation than indiscriminate use of "free" images. If this is an article about Ice hockey at the Olympic Games, then the shots should be of the more significant matches, be they controversial or monumental in the history of the games, not of individual country's triumphs. Jappalang (talk) 09:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, I wanted to include as many images of as many teams as I could to avoid any potential bias claims (there have been nationalist users who complain about the silliest things). There was also a concern about the number of images of Canadian teams in a peer review. I think the images do add to the page, and since they are free, I don't see why they can't be used? -- Scorpion0422 16:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please refer to Wikipedia:Image use policy#Image queuing, Wikipedia:Images#Image choice and placement, and Wikipedia talk:Image use policy/Archive 12#Gallery confusion again. As a whole, images are to be judiciously used. Commons would host masses of pertinent images, but the most representative of the subject are shown in the article. This becomes a matter of aesthetics and reading experience. Jappalang (talk) 03:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I don't think the images affect the reading experience because they are along tables. However, I have removed them anyway. -- Scorpion0422 03:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bringing File:Ice hockey pictogram.svg down here, as my concern seems to be no longer of a copyright/permission issue. What I am concerned about (after resolving possible copyrights) is: should we emboss an unofficial logo onto an international event, which carries its own event logos (albeit copyrighted and for each occasion)[18][19]? I know there seems not to be official policy or guideline against using "free" images , but I worry that some might mistake our editors' creations as official logos and in printing as such, propagate a misperception. In fact there is encouragement to use "free" images, but is there an oversight here for this kind of situation? What was the discussion (and rationales) that led to the creation of these logos and implementation? Jappalang (talk) 09:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't around for any discussion about the logos, so I don't know. I do somewhat agree with you about users mistaking it for any kind of official logo, but I don't know what else to use as a lead image. I had tried a different one a while back [20] but I removed it because I was afraid it might cause edit wars from users who try to add a different team to the lead. Do you have any suggestions for an alternate lead image? I guess the image of the 1920 team might work (it might be the most relevant), but again, I'm afraid that users might claim the article is biased towards Canada and showing a Canadian team in the lead wouldn't help matters. -- Scorpion0422 14:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I hope we can get answers from those who made the decision (and propagated this practice) if they are reading this, and perhaps other editors can weigh in as well. Are WikiProject Olympics and WikiProject Ice Hockey not aware of this possible issue? Jappalang (talk) 15:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As the creator of the Olympic sport pictograms, I have never endorsed nor opposed their use as a potential "official" visual identity to be used in Wikipedia articles about the corresponding Olympic sport. So far, they have been used only as decorative items of "sport per year" navigation boxes and tables with stats concerning the sports depicted by that pictogram. Nothing as big as being used as lead image in the history of an Olympic sport. So, I understand Jappalang's perspective, and I think that, since there does not seems to be any consensus on this matter, perhaps it should be best not to include the pictogram or, at least, not give it such a preponderance in the lead navbox template. Parutakupiu (talk) 01:07, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just to make things simpler, I have switched to a new lead image of the 1920 gold medal winning team. It may bring on some complaints, but I think it makes the most sense of any of the current images. -- Scorpion0422 02:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removing the image does address the comment, although I think a photo of a 1920 ice hockey match would be the best representation for the article. The 1920 team could suffice since the article is about the sport in the Olympics. Jappalang (talk) 06:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, as far as I know, we don't have any free images of any games from the 1920 tournament, so the team is the second best option. Do you consider your concerns completely addressed? -- Scorpion0422 20:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Jappalang (talk) 22:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [21].

Hastings Ismay, 1st Baron Ismay

Nominator(s): Cool3 (talk) 23:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I present Hastings Ismay for your consideration. Already a MILHIST A-Class article, I've given the article several style passes since that time and let it age for a while to allow others to improve it as well. I have heard some complaints about the lead image in the article, but frankly it's the best I've been able to do after considerable searching. If, however, anyone comes up with a better one, I would be very happy to include it. Happy Reviewing! Cool3 (talk) 23:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (Note the link checker tool shows one dead link but it's working as I checked it.) Ealdgyth - Talk 12:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Just did a first review - generally looking good. I did notice some sentences and statements without citations - perhaps these are supported by a nearby citation, but for FA purposes would wonder if each statement/sentence would need to be locked down with a source? References list shows 78 of the 178 entries are "Ismay" - perhaps some secondary citations should accompany some of these cases to provide a better balance between primary/secondary sources. Seems consistent with WP:NATOSTYLE. Did some consistency checking to ensure UK English spellings, but could use a more detailed scan for that. Dl2000 (talk) 01:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Any sentence not cited is covered by the next citation; in my experience this is generally considered sufficient. Sure, many of the sources are Ismay's memoirs, but those provide more detail and depth than any other source available, so they were quite useful in filling the details. I think you'll find though, that other than in the early life (for which few secondary sources are avaialable), Ismay's memoirs are used primarily to express his own opinions (on which they are certainly authoritative) or to fill in details that other sources would omit. Some of these citations could be changed to Wingate, but I don't really see the point in doing so as Ismay's memoirs were one of Wingate's principal sources to begin with. Cool3 (talk) 02:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I have now gone through the article quite thoroughly, supplementing the citations to Ismay's memoirs with a citation to a secondary, so that the majority of them (other than quotes) are now sourced to a secondary source. It would be possible, if reviewers feel it is necessary, to remove the Ismay citations and replace them with the new citations, but I tend to think that two citations are better than one. Cool3 (talk) 17:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Good stuff... to be clear, I don't suggest removing any Ismay refs; just a good balance of secondary sources to be safe, especially getting into the FA leagues. Concur that the more citations, the merrier, within reason. Dl2000 (talk) 03:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments, near support, from Ceranthor (talk · contribs)
    • primarily remembered for his role - switch primarily and remembered
      Changed.
    • The Memoirs of General Lord Ismay - is this a collection or just one memoir, if the latter, refer to it as a memoir in the article
      So far as I know, when used to mean "autobiography", the memoir is generally used in the plural (memoirs). As Ismay himself entitled them "memoirs" it seemed most appropriate to carry forward this usage. "Usually, memoirs. a. an account of one's personal life and experiences; autobiography." [22]
    • After completing the course at Sandhurst, Ismay placed fourth on its examinations and was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Indian Army. - fourth overall, I assume? Or fourth level, perhaps?
      Fourth overall, article changed to reflect this more clearly. Cool3 (talk) 16:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, I think this is easily an FA article. ceranthor 15:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I did some minor copyediting, as some of the prose seemed a bit repetitive, but I think overall this is an excellent article. Karanacs (talk) 20:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on image concerns:

Other Images are verifiably in public domain or licensed. Jappalang (talk) 23:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support and comments just two minor point War Book has half a set of quotation marks, two or none please. where he joined in the British fight against the "Mad Mullah", Mohammed Abdullah Hassan. would something like where he joined in the fight against Mohammed Abdullah Hassan, called the "Mad Mullah" by the British be less pov? I don't imagine his followers called him the Mad Mullah. Not a big deal if you are happy with current phrasing. jimfbleak (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • War Book is actually part of a larger quotation: "was responsible for seeing that all plans and preparations made by Government Departments or sub-committees of the CID to meet the eventuality of war, were incorporated under appropriate headings in a document known as the War Book." Thus, it's not actually in quotes of its own at all.
    • THe part on the Mad Mullah has been rephrased. Thanks for the comments! Cool3 (talk) 20:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and comments: Generally excellent.
  • "...to take control of the forces in Somaliland and finish off Hassan once and for all". The expression "...finish off Hassan once and for all" is not a quote, and is surely unencyclopedic. It makes him sound like a wounded dog. I suggest "...fight a conclusive battle against Hassan's forces".
    Good point. I've changed the wording. Cool3 (talk) 01:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Everything else looked OK to me; I did a couple of minor copyedits. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [23].

Ten Commandments in Roman Catholicism

Nominator(s): NancyHeise talk 15:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it meets FA criteria and all concerns raised in the last FAC have been addressed with the help of other editors and myself. NancyHeise talk 15:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Struck, Steve T • C I'm sorry, I took a look at the article out of curiosity, not intending to review it (in the middle of a review of another huge article), but I got so bogged down with prose problems in the lead that I felt I had to comment (please see the link for why it's an "oppose" and not a "comment", despite my not doing a full review). Major issues manifest from the first sentence:
    • "The Ten Commandments are a series of religious and moral imperatives, recognized as a moral foundation in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and among the cornerstones of theology of the Roman Catholic Church." – this just doesn't work; the first half, up to "Islam", is fine, but the second half is I assume missing an "are" before "among"? Imagine the sentence with the RCC moved up to see why: "The Ten Commandments are a series of religious and moral imperatives, and among the cornerstones of theology of the Roman Catholic Church." See what I mean?
    • "The New Testament contains Jesus's teaching that observing the commandments is a minimum requirement for mankind, he exceeded them in his teachings requiring more, not less moral effort." – again, the segment before the first comma is OK, but then it runs on to a completely separate sentence that doesn't make sense either alone or as the second half of the original statement. Split the sentence after "mankind" and somehow make sense of "He exceeded them in his teachings requiring more, not less moral effort." A comma after teachings might help, but I don't even know what this is trying to say.
    • He also summarized them into two "great commandments that taught love of God (the first three Commandments) and love of neighbor (the last seven)." – a quote ("great) that isn't closed? Inconsistent capitalisation of "Commandments" in both this sentence and the rest of the lead.
    • "Church beliefs are detailed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which devotes a separate section to explain each of the commandments." – without a comma before "which", it reads as if there are multiple Catechism's, of which there is one (which devotes a separate section to explain each of the commandments) that details church beliefs. A simple fix, but one that alters the whole meaning of the sentence.
    • According to the Catechism" – inconsistent italicisation; the capitalisation tells us it's the proper noun shorthand for the aforementioned Catechism of the Catholic Church rather than merely "the catechism", so it needs italics too.
  • These are all issues that should really have been caught before FAC submission. I don't know if they're representative of the rest of the article, but being in the lead section they're major enough to warrant an oppose vote. I'm sorry if my tone seems harsh, but the lead is supposed to grab the reader's interest; it won't if the reader trips up on easily-spotted mistakes like these. I'll keep this page watchlisted for any response, and promise to look back in when I've finished my other review. All the best, and good luck with the rest of the nomination, Steve T • C 21:34, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Steve, I did not find your tone to be harsh and your comments are spot on. I agree that changes can be made to the lead to improve the prose. Efforts by different editors to fix the lead have created a mishmash of styles that does not work and I am happy to address your issues here. I do not feel that the rest of the article is in need of this kind of work so I hope you are not discouraged from further review after I finish the lead. Thanks, NancyHeise talk 23:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have made changes to the lead that address your concerns here. Please have another look. Thanks, NancyHeise talk 23:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That new lead is a lot better. Oppose struck. Also, you're right, it didn't look particularly representative of the rest of the article. I'm not confident enough on religious subjects, so I'll probably not review this fully, but if I get time, once this review has developed further I'll pop back in to see if I can at least give the general prose a closer look. Nice work, Steve T • C 13:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I welcome any further review you can offer. NancyHeise talk 18:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (Note the link checker is showing one link as dead, but it actually works, I clicked through to it fine.) Ealdgyth - Talk 12:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not FA. Poorly referenced. Publications by historians should be used, instead of "catholic sources". The ref problem results in a pov problem, since the article is not presented with a rigorous critical historical perspective.--Sum (talk) 02:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi. It might help if you can expand on that comment. Can you give a specific example of a statement cited to catholic sources that might be significantly different if cited to an independent historian? Otherwise, it will be difficult for the nominator to pin down exactly what the problem is, what to change, and for other reviewers to determine whether to take this point into consideration. Steve T • C 19:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is not a history article but a theology article, so historians are not qualified to discuss the matter. Not all writers on Catholic theology are Catholic, nor are all Catholics of the same mind, so your second point has no grounds. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I just added some Protestant historians and views to Background to supplement the Protestant and Catholic and secular historians that are already in the article. The article now includes 12 non-Catholic sources and 13 Catholic sources not including the Bible and the Catechism. NancyHeise talk 00:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Well written and thoroughly referenced. I don't have a problem with having many references that are "Catholic sources" because this is an article about Catholic teachings. Dincher (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Thanks for your support. I just want to post some clarifying comments about sources used to help people who do not know some important details regarding them:
  • all sentences that state a fact of official Catholic teaching in this article are referenced to sources that contain Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur declarations from the Church. I have also cross referenced these sources to the actual primary sources (like the Catechism of the Catholic Church) that they cite. All are written by professors of theology at prestigious universities in accordance with recommendations of WP:reliable source examples. One of the sources used in the article is approved by the USCCB for use in catechesis.
  • all sentences that discuss a historical or background aspect of the article do not specifically come from Catholic sources. These sources include both Catholic and non-Catholic authors that meet the requirements of WP:reliable source examples as well but because they do not deal with official Catholic doctrine, they do not posess nor have they applied for Nihil obstat or imprimatur because it would be inappropriate to the subject matter these books discuss.
  • I am not sure how to improve upon the sources as they are the best English language sources available. However, if someone has another source they would like to include, I am open to having a look and including it as an additional source. NancyHeise talk 02:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments A few quibbles
    • He exceeded them in his word -is this right? reads oddly to me, expect either "words" or "work"
    • I fixed the schism dab, didn't check for other dabs, but several redirects
    • "Life unworthy of life" If this is a book title, as claimed, it should be italics, but the actual book is Die Freigabe der Vernichtung Lebensunwerten Lebens, (Allowing the Destruction of Life Unworthy of Life).
    • Evangelium Vitae, Rerum Novarum etc. - italics I think
    • War and self defense - self-defence is usually hyphenated in BE, can you assure me that AE is different?

I'm leaning to support, but just needs a little checking jimfbleak (talk) 19:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

      • A more literal translation would be "The Permission to Destroy Life Unworthy of Life" which is the title used by the New York Times here. Another translation would be "The Permissibility for Destruction of Life Unworthy of Life". --Richard (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks JimFbleak and Richard, I'll get right on these comments and get back to you. NancyHeise talk 01:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am copying Jimfbleak's comments here to answer them one by one without breaking up his original comments above.
    • He exceeded them in his word -is this right? reads oddly to me, expect either "words" or "work"
I changed the sentence to read "The New Testament contains Jesus's moral teachings which confirmed the validity of the commandments. He exceeded them in his teachings and demanded more, not less moral effort.[8]" NancyHeise talk 02:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I fixed the schism dab, didn't check for other dabs, but several redirects
Checked links and made some changes where needed. NancyHeise talk 02:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Life unworthy of life" If this is a book title, as claimed, it should be italics, but the actual book is Die Freigabe der Vernichtung Lebensunwerten Lebens, (Allowing the Destruction of Life Unworthy of Life).
Yes, Richard was kind enough to put the whole name into the article, thanks Richard. NancyHeise talk 02:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Evangelium Vitae, Rerum Novarum etc. - italics I think
Yes! changed all papal encyclicals mentioned to italics NancyHeise talk 02:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • ''War and self defense - self-defence is usually hyphenated in BE, can you assure me that AE is different?
self-defense is correct AE. I have corrected the article text by inserting a hyphen per your comment here. NancyHeise talk 02:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support although I'm not an expert, I'm happy with the sources and the changes made above. It's slightly disturbing that the article is in AE, when everyone knows God is an Englishman, but that's probably not actionable (: jimfbleak (talk) 05:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, it's time for some silliness, eh? Well then, try this on for size...

For he himself has said it,

And it's greatly to his credit,

That he is an Englishman!

That he is an Englishman!

For he might have been a Roosian,

A French, or Turk, or Proosian,

Or perhaps Itali-an!

Or perhaps Itali-an!


But in spite of all temptations

To belong to other nations,

He remains an Englishman!

From HMS Pinafore --Richard (talk) 05:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It must be nice to be a pure breed - we mutts in the US don't know that kind of pride. We are just proud when our local football team wins the Superbowl. NancyHeise talk 17:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I have commented at length during previous FACs and peer reviews, and my view holds: this article is a thoughtful and comprehensive account of the Catholic Church's teaching relative to the Ten Commandments, well worthy of promotion, and I look forward to seeing it featured. Brianboulton (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 03:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Notes: the first line in the section "Jesus' expansion" contains an external jump to a scripture (external links belong in citations or external links). The final quote in the section "Separation, civil divorce, annulments" appears to be split, resulting in confusing punctuation and what looks like (but isn't) the need for an ellipses ... is it possible to put all of the quote in the quote, not in the preceding line? There are still WP:PUNC logical punctuation issues that need addressing (example ... because the adulterer sins against "his spouse, his society, and his children as well as his own body and soul.") There are still hyphen, endash mixups (example: ... total self–giving and union, ... should be a hyphen, not an endash). This clause is still unexplained and uncited: ... unchastity or an unlawful marriage (depending upon the Biblical translation), ... a citation to go through every possible translation of the Bible doesn't clarify the translation issue. There is an inconsistent citation style wrt Bible sources: some have a colon, some don't, examples ... Deuteronomy 4 13, others are Matthew 5:20. These are samples; a good Mos review is needed of these issues throughout. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Sandy, I've made corrections per your comments here and checking the article again searching for any punctuation or endash mixups. Steve says he is going to go through the article again over the weekend [24] so maybe between the two of us all issues relating to MOS will be resolved. NancyHeise talk 17:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Yeah, I've been performing a light copyedit at a leisurely pace over the last few days. I think I've done up to "Third Commandment" so far; the others will probably take another couple of days. I was planning to leave the full MOS-sweep until the end, so I can fix any outstanding issues in one go. But while I'm here, I have got one question: is there any particular reason the quote boxes are in boldface and a seemingly-larger font? I can't see anything specific in the guidelines that prohibits different formatting in the boxes than in the article body, but it is a little... distracting... which might be the intention? :) Steve T • C 19:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I pondered on same, and went back and forth for a while. WP:MOSBOLD allows for bolding of lists, and in a sense, they are a list. So I'm not fussed either way. They do look a bit ... awkward ... but not enough for me to argue against the bolding. Consensus ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't fuss me too much either; as both a list and, in effect, an extension of the section header, I'm OK with its remaining. Steve T • C 11:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm generally supportive of this article being classed as a Featured Article. During the first candidacy, User:Ioannes Pragensis commented that the article "offers almost no information about hundreds years of Catholic moral theology, the development of its views and related church doctrines etc. There is only one short reference to Thomas Aquinas in the article, and that is all - no other early Catholic moral theologians are included, no explanation of "sola fide" conflict with Reformators in 16th century is offered etc. I think that the article in its current state is a well designed presentation of what one would hear about Ten Commandments in the church sermons and documents today, but it has a rather shallow theoretical basis (for example it offers almost no information about the textual critic of Ten C. in context of Vulgata translation) and it ignores the historical development of the understanding and use of Ten C. in the church. Therefore its perspective is more the perspective of an insider from 2009, not neutral perspective of history, sociology and philosophy of religion, which considers development of ideologies in time, includes also critical voices and tries to see things from impartial perspective." In response to Ioannes' comments, we have made an effort to address some of his concerns relative to the historical development of church teaching around specific commandments. However, it was not until a few weeks ago, that I came to understand that there is an issue regarding the assertion by the Catechism that the Ten Commandments have "occupied a predominant place" in teaching the faith since the time of Saint Augustine (A.D 354–430)". It took me a while to research this issue and write it up (partly due to other things going on in "the real world"). Please see my comment on the article's Talk Page. My recommendation would be hold up a decision on this article until this issue is resolved. I think this can be done fairly quickly but I also think it is important to address it before qualifying the article as FA since this seems to me to be a fair-sized hole in the article's coverage of the topic. --Richard (talk) 06:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Richard, I have inserted more info per your comments here and on the talk page. Please see my additional information in Background. Thanks, NancyHeise talk 19:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What you added to the "Background" section addresses the issue that I raised. Although the prose could be improved, I am happy with the points that are made there. I will leave it to others to tighten up the prose. --Richard (talk) 21:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've made some improvements in prose and logical flow of ideas, please see again. Thanks. NancyHeise talk 01:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - I was waiting to see if Savidan raised any substantive issues regarding historical development. Since he is satisfied, I am now ready to support the FA status of this article. Kudos to NancyHeise for much hard work and a job well-done. --Richard (talk) 03:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, Wow! I just saw your support way up here Richard. Thanks so much for your support and for your terrific help in moving the article along toward improvement - especially for your help in meeting WP:NPOV. NancyHeise talk 01:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - this article is a good summary of the Commandments as outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but I would like to see more on the history of the 10 commandments within the Catholic Church before the era of John Paul II. What role did the 10 commandments play in Catholic theology in the Middle Ages? Or even the 19th/early 20th century? How has emphasis changed over time? What papal encyclicals or ecumenical councils have spoken to the issue? These are the types of questions a featured article would address. The "Background" section does not seem to address this issue at all. There is only sentence about the early church, and then >90% of the article is about modern issues. I am also concerned that much of the material in the intro and the first section is too generic given the title of this article; I would prefer that it maintain a laserlike focus on Roman Catholicism itself and not repeat too much content that is common to all Christian denominations. Savidan 15:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have inserted more information on history while addressing Richard's comments. However, the article already includes all mentions of papal encyclicals regarding the Ten. There are no missing issues. We went through each commandment and included a history of Church teaching within each commandment where one existed. This information is not in Background because that section is a general overview of all the commandments. Please see the histories discussed within each commandment. If you know of any papal encyclicals that I have omitted from the article please specify because I do not believe I have omitted any.
  • Also, What information do you think should be deleted form Background and the lead that is too generic? I am not sure what to delete without seriously depriving Reader of important basic facts that provide him/her with a general understanding of the issue. Can you be more specific? Thanks, NancyHeise talk 19:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have eliminated some of the details pertaining to the giving of the Ten Commandments and replaced these with Church teaching regarding their issuance. Please let me know if I have addressed your concern. Thanks. NancyHeise talk 00:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nancy, you have indeed cited many papal encyclicals as they related to specific commandments. My concern is more towards the history of the commandments as a whole. There are two important issues that I view as neglected: (1) the history of the theology of the Ten as a group rather than as individual moral issues. For example, the Catholics differ in their numbering of the Commands; to wit, no other substantial Judeo-Christian denomination shares this numbering—this, I believe, has a history; (2) the history of the joint importance of the Ten, as theologically more or less important than other teachings. I agree that this issue is separate from the equally important "Background" section, so I would perhaps like to see a new "History" section. If JPII is truly the first pope to write about the fundamental importance of the Ten Commandments as a group of teachings, that would seem to be a very important point; if he is not, then the article has made an important omission.
Additionally, I believe that the article is too quick to claim that the present interpretation is substantially similar to historical church teaching. I will give the example of capital punishment because it is the area that I am most familiar. I can give more examples when I am less pressed for time. I believe the article is incorrect when it states that the Church did not explicitly support capital punishment at some points in its history. Please see the Dulles and Megivern sources I have cited in Capital punishment in Vatican City. I think the article would also be remiss to omit the fact that the Church was itself not just a supporter, but an active administrator, of the death penalty historically (see List of people executed by the Holy See). Savidan 10:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Savidan, to address your comments here I have added the following to the article:
  • A seealso link in Capital punishment section to List of people executed by the Holy See
  • Expanded Capital punishment, (see [25]) to include mention of points made by the Dulles source you suggest above with wikilinked mention of Inquisition as well.
  • The sentence that says official Church teaching has neither absolutely condemned nor promoted the death penalty was changed to include the name of the person stating this.
  • Numbering of the Commandments history is already mentioned here [26]. There is no more history to report on this. Scholarly sources do not say anything more about numbering. Wondering if I had missed something, I performed a search and read about this topic in various other sources both Protestant and Catholic and secular but there is nothing more to report other than what is already here. I could include the fact that some Protestants think their numbering is more correct but that is also true of Catholics and Jews all of whom have different numberings. Lutherans have the same numbering system as Catholics and this too is included in the article. What more would you like to see here? What do you think has been omitted? Please be more specific, Thanks.
  • History - I have changed the name of the Background section to "History" as it now relates the history of the Ten that includes a history of its emphasis in teaching the faith as you requested. See [27]. This history section also provides mention of divisive issues between Protestants and Catholics regarding the Ten and developement of official Church teaching on them. I hope this addresses all your concerns. Thanks for taking the time to review the article, NancyHeise talk 19:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Neutral, but a tentative one: interested to see whether Savidan is satisfied. as yet (neutrality, writing).

  • Savidan, above, is one of our best religious/historical scholars. I'd like to second his line of questions. In addition, the shades of belief within the church are not given nearly enough oxygen; WP's job is not to repeat the iron-fisted control over ideology of whichever regime is in power in the Vatican in what needs to be a scupulously NPOV account.
  • "demanding a righteousness that exceeded that of the scribes"—consider avoiding that that ... "demanding a righteousness exceeding that of the scribes" (the ing ing is less instrusive, possibly).
  • uncertain, not "not certain".
  • Jesus's, then Jesus'.
  • "a place of predominant importance"—ouch ... "a predominant place".
  • This is certainly better than the previous "Roman CC" FAC I saw a few years ago in its use of techniques to distance WP explicitly from statements of ideology and dogma. That's good NPOV technique. Tony (talk) 17:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the work that has gone into this; it has the makings of a good FAC, but I'm uneasy as yet. Tony (talk) 17:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Tony, I have made the prose changes you suggest here and I have inserted info on the number of practicing Catholics in the lead. Please see my additions to the article in response to Savidan and Richard's comments and let me know what other kinds of reservations you have about the article, specifics will help me to be able to address them.NancyHeise talk 19:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, I just want to add that we were careful to add criticisms of Church teaching where these existed. I think that maybe you may not have seen these within each commandment section. Not all of the commandments have these because not all are controversial, in fact very few are. I'll list the specific areas that needed criticism discussions to help you review it:
  • Lead- I added a sentence that says the number of practicing Catholics is not reliably known cited to the BBC per your comments here.
  • Numbering- Differences between Catholic and Protestant numbering is identified along with info where these different systems originated.
  • Background- Differences in understanding the place of the Commandments as a source of grace between Protestant and Catholics.
  • Graven Images- discusses criticism of Catholics for idolatry and history of Church belief on this subject.
  • Third commandment - contains discussion on differences between Jewish and Catholic and some other Christian denominations and Catholics on Sabbath Day issue (Sunday or Saturday).
  • Fifth commandment - contains discussion on the difference between santity of life ethic and quality of life ethic as framed by most medical journals and scholars discussing this commandment. This encompasses all discussion on abortion, stem cell research and euthanasia which break down to differences between these two ethics.
  • Sixth commandment section on homosexuality contains the two opposing philosophies within the Church on the issue. Also, this commandment contains information on the fact that many Church members and non-members criticize the Church teachings on birth control as contributing to overpopulation. Also included: info on criticism surrounding condom policy with regards to AIDS.
  • Do these address your concerns and if not, can you specify any criticisms you think I have omitted? NancyHeise talk 02:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support A thorough and well-written article. I do have a comment, but it's purely aesthetic in nature: I noticed that all of the quotation boxes and images are on the right. I think it looks nicer when the images are sometimes on the left and sometimes on the right; but that's a personal preference and just a suggestion. Ricardiana (talk) 03:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support - I was able to move one picture to the left (in Graven Images) but I am unable to do so with any of the others without violating some Wikipedia policies. We can't put pictures directly underneath subject headings and pictures can't run into the section below. I thought the Bathsheba picture could be moved but it results in a little bit of what is called "sandwiching" of text. Thanks for your support and for not being a stickler on placement of images! NancyHeise talk 03:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem - it was just a thought. Ricardiana (talk) 04:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the copyediting front, I've come across this statement in the "Sixth commandment" section:

    The sexual act is sacred within the context of the marital relationship that reflects a "complete" and "life-long" "mutual" "gift" "of a man and a woman".

    The series of brief quotations, sans interruption, don't read that well, but I'm struggling to paraphrase it because I'm not 100% sure what the sentence is saying. Does marriage represent the life-long mutual gift, or is it "the sexual act"? Can you elaborate here? Or if you still have access to Kreeft, it might be useful to post the relevant text, maybe on my talk to avoid clogging this page (as bad luck would have it, page 245 is unavailable in Google Books' preview). A side note: would you object to my altering "The sexual act" in the above to "Sexual intercourse"? It's more specific and avoids ambiguities of the "which sexual act?" variety. Steve T • C 12:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hee! I don't know about you but for me, only one of the sexual acts is considered "the" sexual act! : ) NancyHeise talk 16:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nonetheless, "sexual intercourse" is a more common locution and thus scans better. If we're not working with a direct quote from the cited work, I would just remove all the quotations and not worry about paraphrasing. As long as the sentence has a citation, this is not really a copyright issue, the "fair use" doctrine should cover use of such a short snippet. --Richard (talk) 16:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Steve, I posted Kreeft's quote from page 245 on this FACs discussion page here [28]. I changed the sentence per comments here, it now states "Sexual intercourse is sacred within the context of the marital relationship that reflects "the five essential ingredients of a marriage"—a "complete" and "life-long" "mutual" "gift" "of a man and a woman". This I think addresses the "sexual act" comment and clarifies what the series of quotes are describing. Feel free to improve upon this if you like and thanks for your terrific copyedit. NancyHeise talk 16:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for posting that text; it explains a lot (i.e. that the machine-gun quotes were Kreeft's not-so-great idea). Hope my tweak to the section is appropriate. The MOS concerns seem mostly cleared up (I'll check for any I've missed later), save for the logical quotation issues, for which I need to go pick over the guideline first. Steve T • C 22:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking that it is not necessary to perpetuate "Kreeft's not-so-great idea" of using machine-gun quotes. For one thing, the point is that there are "five essential ingredients of a marriage". Perhaps it would be useful to present these five as a separate topic early in the section on the sixth commandment preceding the other discussions that reference them. Perhaps we could put the five elements in a bullet-pointed list with brief explanations in a sentence of two. For example, I think it's pretty obvious what "life-long" and "of a man and a woman" mean but it's not so obvious what "complete", "mutual" and "gift" mean. Obviously, people will have some idea but some elaboration could be useful here if we can do it . "Mutual" means that both sides want to be in the marriage but what if one party wants out? There is no divorce so this seems to be a contradiction. Do any of the sources amplify the meaning of "mutual"? "Gift" presumably means that the marriage was freely entered into and no coercion or inducement was involved. The marriage was not arranged, coerced or part of a contract involving a quid pro quo. That's what I read into the word. Do any of our sources provide an amplification of the word "gift"? Now, I have to say that I don't have a clear understanding of what "complete" means. I'm guessing that it means you cannot have a marriage which intentionally excludes characteristics and activities normally associated with a "complete" marriage. This would therefore exclude "marriages of convenience" or prohibit a spouse from refusing to have sex even though he/she is not unfaithful in the sense of having sexual intercourse outside the marriage. Now, I am personally uncomfortable with the last proposition about "withholding sex" but that should illustrate the need for providing sourced elaborations of what the "five essential ingredients" mean. --Richard (talk) 16:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great idea Richard, I'm adding this info now from a different nihil obstat, imprimatur source that was created by 12 Catholic theologians, its called "Catholic for a Reason". NancyHeise talk 16:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Richard, after researching this, I believe it is inappropriate. The five ingredients of a marriage are not discussed as part of the Ten Commandments and are not even identified as the "five ingredients", this is Kreeft's analysis. He is correct, there are five ingredients but they are not listed and interpreted by either the Catechism or scholarly sources. The Catechism states them as part of the explanation of the sixth commandment but omits "free" which is explained under "mutual consent" in its explanation of the sacrament of matrimony. To address the awkwardness of the sentence punctuation, I have instead reworded the sentence to quote the Catechism instead of Kreeft and added ref. NancyHeise talk 17:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Steve, per your post immediately above this one, I went through and checked all quotations to their sources and made some punctuation corrections to adhere to WP:LQ. NancyHeise talk 03:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Steve and Richard, I was thinking this morning about how we changed "sexual act", (the words used by the Catechism) to "sexual intercourse". I am not sure that is the best thing to do. The "sexual act" could mean more than just "sexual intercourse", it could mean the act of lovemaking which is all inclusive. I am uncomfortable with the change and would like to revert back to "sexual act". Are you both OK with that? NancyHeise talk 15:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm OK with changing it back but, if we cannot easily define amongst ourselves the precise meanings of these phrases, it suggests an ambiguity that we should clear up for the reader. If the Catechism doesn't provide a clear definition, do either Kreeft or Schreck shed any light on how to interpret this phrase? This is especially important if we are proposing a wider definition of "sexual act" than most readers would interpret it to mean. There are many Christians who would consider "lovemaking short of sexual intercourse" to be permissible activity outside of marriage. Hmmm... well, um, I guess we'd have to differentiate between premarital lovemaking as opposed extramarital lovemaking. (cf. "I did not have sex with that woman" - Bill Clinton) NB: If we can't provide a clear definition of "the sexual act", we should make it clear that the phrase "sexual act" is used by the Catechism and may therefore have a specific definition other than what readers may expect. --Richard (talk) 16:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Richard, Kreeft and Schreck do not specify, they repeat the words used by the Catechism which are "the acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify" Kreeft follows this with an analogy between these words used by the Catechism to describe sexual acts in marriage and words used by the Catechism to describe a sacrament. Because the words signify more than one act "the acts in marriage", I don't think we can use "sexual intercourse" or "the sexual act" but rather "sexual acts" I think is more correct paraphrasing. What do you think? NancyHeise talk 16:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Richard, to address your concern over the use of "sexual acts" I have added a note to clarify for Reader what the Catechism states. I hope this addresses your concern. Thanks, NancyHeise talk 18:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to come late to your original question; your solution is perfectly OK by me. Steve T • C 21:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your support and for taking the time to come review the article and offer your comments. NancyHeise talk 15:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Useful compilation that meets FA criteria. The concentration on present-day issues and positions is I think necessary given the length of the article already. Johnbod (talk) 19:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your support! NancyHeise talk 03:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some minor c/e of recently added material aside, I think it's almost there. The only major issue I can see at the moment is that due to the recent additions to the article body, the lead no longer summarises its content. I've taken the liberty of throwing together a draft, here, but didn't want to make such a large change to the article itself without your say so. Because I'm out of my comfort zone subject-wise, it may be that my paraphrase has misinterpreted the article body or emphasised unimportant aspects, but I think some added focus on the history of Church teaching of the commandments is at least a good idea. Feel free to discard my suggestion for an expansion of your own; you know the subject far more intimately than I. All the best, Steve T • C 21:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I like it and I inserted it into the article - great job! Thank you for your thorough help! I have reworded a couple of sentences and added the criticism of Protestant reformers since this is notable. Let me know what you think. Thanks again. NancyHeise talk 03:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The new lead is pretty good. I deleted the bit about the numbering because, IMO, it is not that important and thus does not need to be in the lead. More importantly, it is unrelated to what precedes it and what follows it and thus is a non sequitur. I also have a problem with this sentence: "While the number of Catholics who adhere to Church teaching is not reliably known, a review of the Commandments is one of the most common types of examination of conscience used by Catholics before receiving the sacrament of Penance." There is no direct connection between the number of Catholics who adhere to Church teaching and the fact that "a review of the Commandments is one of the most common types of examination of conscience used by Catholics before receiving the sacrament of Penance." Thus, this is another non sqequitur. I would delete this text: "While the number of Catholics who adhere to Church teaching is not reliably known" because it does not add anything to the meaning of the main clause and, if anything, becomes a distraction for those who might wonder what the logical connection is between the two. --Richard (talk) 03:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with that suggestion. Thanks Richard for your help. I agree that the two sentences you point out don't help logical flow that much, the lead is better without them. NancyHeise talk 03:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I'm very pleased to support this article's candidacy; concerns have been tackled swiftly and with good grace throughout by the nominator, and the article has improved significantly since the first nomination, to a point that I'm satisfied that it meets the criteria. As I'm not a content expert in this area, I delayed supporting until I saw comments from those who are, but as far as I can see, the attribution on the quotes and opinions seems sound, appropriate distance has been maintained throughout, it's well-written, and seems a comprehensive overview of the subject's coverage in modern scholarly sources; a valid editorial choice I'm happy to endorse. Nice work! Steve T • C 09:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Steve, if this makes FA, it will be in large part because you held my hand through the process. I appreciate your help, everyone on Wikipedia I'm sure knows I needed it. : ) NancyHeise talk 15:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Although it's a great picture, the lead image is by Rembrandt, a (most likely) Protestant painter. I would vote for a switch to one of the other images from Commons. [29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lesgles (talk • contribs) 14:33, June 16, 2009
Although I am sure that Catholics love Protestants and would not mind the Rembrandt, I did go to your link and stumbled across another great picture of Moses receiving the Ten on a Jewish page called Mishpatim. I replaced Rembrandt with this da Costa: [30]. What do you think? Better? NancyHeise talk 15:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I like the chose of da Costa. It was a trivial matter, for sure, but with this we get an illustration not only of the ten commandments but also of the ten commandments through the eyes of a Roman Catholic, which is closer to the subject of this article. On all other points, I am satisfied, having made some suggestions and edits earlier on in the process. Lesgles (talk) 20:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notes: Will someone please figure out the correct combo of punctuation and capitalization here:

  • Envy is the desire for what belongs to another; "It is an attitude that fills us with sadness at the sight of another's prosperity."

Inconsistency in citations: some are Mt, others are Matthew. I'm not convinced the logical punctuation agrees with WP:PUNC, but I'm not an expert on logical punctuation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sandy, I changed the Envy sentence into two separate sentences to avoid punctuation difficulties, it now reads "2.Envy is the desire for what belongs to another.[144] The US Bishops define it as "an attitude that fills us with sadness at the sight of another's prosperity." I'm going to correct the Matthew citations and review the rest for consistency. NancyHeise talk 20:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed two citations from Mt to Matthew for consistency. I did not see any others that needed attention. Thanks Sandy. NancyHeise talk 20:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the logical punctuation issue, on paper the article conforms to the underwritten WP:LQ, though that guideline doesn't agree with what seems to be standard practise. In summary, then: dunno. :) Steve T • C 20:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Status quo :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [31].

Moltke class battlecruiser

Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk) 03:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This article passed GA in March and MILHIST A-class in April (reviews here and here, respectively). I feel the article is at or close to FAC, so here we are. Thanks in advance to all comments and suggestions. Parsecboy (talk) 03:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • SupportComments. The article is close to FA standards but needs some work:
    1. The ship was unsuccessfully offered for sale to the West German government in 1963; without a group willing to preserve the ship as a museum, the ship was sold for scrapping in 1971. The main text of the article does not mention these dates.
    2. Forty-four million marks were allocated for the 1908 fiscal year, which created the possibility of increasing the main guns to ... I do not like this clumsy sentence. I suggest "Forty-four million marks allocated for the 1908 fiscal year made it possible to increase the main guns to ..."
    3. there were many weight increases due to the increase in the size I do not like two "increase" in this sentence.
    4. Blohm & Voss received both contracts in 1909 ... However, further I read The contract for "Cruiser G" was awarded on 17 September 1908 ... What is the difference between receiving a contract and being awarded a contract? And also what does it mean The contract for "Cruiser H" was ordered on 8 April 1909 ? The terminology and dates here are confusing.
    5. While serving as the second command flagship, the ship carried an additional 3 officers and 25 men. Does it mean additional to the standard crew or to crew increased by an additional 13 officers and 62 men.?
    6. For consistency 52,000 shaft horsepower 76,795 shp and 71,275 shp should be converted into kilowatts as well. Please, also convert psi into atm/bar/Pa (one of three).
    7. Taking into account that Goeben existed until the middle of 1970s, do any newer photos of her exist? For instance, color photos would be of a particular interest.
Ruslik (talk) 12:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You sometimes use {{Auto shp}} and sometimes not. This leads to inconsistent results. Ruslik (talk) 08:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I switched them all over to {{convert}}; I didn't see any where the results were different numbers, just kW and MW. Parsecboy (talk) 12:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I can support now (I also changed the last image to a one made in 1946). Ruslik (talk) 12:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional support - Prose looks good from what I can tell, but as the article seems to rely primarily upon a single source, I hesitate to fully support; I'll watchlist this discussion and watch for more comments. –Juliancolton | Talk 23:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I could easily switch some of the references to Staff's book in regards to the design information to Groner's book, would that be better? I had written the majority of that section before I had Groner's book, and never thought to diversify the references. I could also play around with the service history cites so it relies less on Staff's book. Thanks for the suggestion. Parsecboy (talk) 23:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review: images check out fine, verifiably in public domain. Jappalang (talk) 01:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - first batch for first two sections
  • Introduction
    • "...built between 1909–1911" would be better as "...built between 1909 and 1911". The same comment applies for the scrapping dates for Goeben later in the section.
    • "The ship remained on active service until 1960, and only slightly modified from her original configuration". I don't think the joining "and" is needed here.
    • I think the actions of the two ships in WWI should be brought together after the colon in the first sentence of the second paragraph and then their fate after the war dealt with later.
    • "The ship was unsuccessfully offered for sale to the West German government in 1963; without a group willing to preserve..." As the lack of a willing group to preserve Goeben is not directly related to the West Germany governments unwillingness to buy the ship, I feel the semi colon should be replaced with a full stop and a new sentence started.
  • Development
    • Suggest using number format for 44 million marks rather than text. Link mark to German gold mark. What about the allocation of this sum "created the possibility" of increasing the size of the guns? Presumably the bigger guns were more expensive.
    • Spelling of "caliber" in this section and "calibre" in the infobox is inconsistent.
    • You start a sentence with "However" - what is this contrasted against?
    • You write about increasing the calibre of the "guns" (plural) but say that the "28 cm gun was sufficient to engage even battleships." (singular). This seems a little awkward.
    • Explain how and why a 28 cm gun was sufficient to engage "even battleships" - range, weight of shell, accuracy, thickness of enemy armour, etc.
    • Explain why consideration of the numerical superiority of the Royal Navy's reconnaissance force, led Tirpitz to argue that the number of main guns on a ship should be increased instead of the calibre.
    • "due to the growth in the size of the citadel, armor thickness, the additions to the ammunition stores, and the rearrangement of the boiler system." The use of the definite article several time in this sentence (as my emphasis) suggests that the reader already has specific knowledge of these changes which they haven't. Removing the highlighted "the"s would remove this problem.
    • Italicising of "Cruiser G" and "Cruiser H" is inconsistent.
    • link Prussian to Prussia the first time it's used (with regard to Moltke) rather than the second.
    • "...she was launched...". Does the German navy use the feminine form for naval ships? Previously, Moltke and Goeben have been referred to as "the ships".
    • "SMS" used for the first time here when referring to the commissioning of Moltke but not in the first sentence when the ships' names are first given.
  • --DavidCane (talk) 18:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your review. I changed "forty-four" -> "44" along with the link to gold marks, calibre -> caliber, italics for "Cruiser G/H", the link to Prussia, the "the"s, etc. The sentence beginning with "However" is in contrast with the previous sentence; I'm assuming that you're implying that it's not correct grammar to do so?
  • As to your suggestion about explaining the reason for why the 28cm gun was sufficient to engage battleships, that may be a little difficult. Navweaps, a fairly comprehensive reference for naval weaponry, only states these guns are credited with penetrating the 5" and 6" side armor belts of the British Battle Cruisers, which isn't sufficient for what you'd like to see added, since the battleships of the period had armored belts that were at least twice that thickness. The range and weight of shell is in the armament section. It may be worth mentioning that the Nassau-class battleships were armed with 28cm guns though. I don't think anything more can be said as far as why Tirpitz wanted more rather than larger guns (without straying into OR), since the sources I've got don't go any further than what's already in the article. As far as I know, the German navy does use "she"; "Schiff" is neutral, but ships themselves are always "die" (as in, "die Moltke"), which is the feminine definite article. Parsecboy (talk) 21:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments on next three sections
  • Design - General characteristics
    • "fully loaded". Isn't the correct term "under full displacement"? Should link displaced to displacement (ship).
    • "They were considered to have handled well..." suggest change "They were considered to handle well..."
    • "...heavier seas..." suggest change to "...heavy seas..." as heavier is a comparative.
    • Is the loss of 60% of speed at full rudder unusual?
  • Propulsion
    • As these were German ships, were the boilers actually rated in pounds per square inch? As pascals hadn't been defined, I would guess it would be something like kilograms per square metre or grams per square centimetre.
    • "After 1916, the boilers were supplemented with tar-oil." Presumably, although it doesn't say, the boilers were usually coal-fired and they were supplemented to operate with tar-oil, from 1916.
    • "4 propellers" should be "four propellers".
    • "ships' powerplant" should be "ships' powerplants"
    • "negligibly lower". suggest "only slightly lower"
    • "Fuel consumption on the 6-hour forced trial was 0.667 kg per hp/hr at 76,795 shp (57.266 MW), and .712 kg per hp/hr at 71,275 shp (53.150 MW) for both ships" This might be useful information, if we knew how much fuel the ships could carry, but it would be more understandable if it was represented as kg (or tonnes) of fuel used per hour at each of the two operating levels.
  • Armament
    • "This was 7.5 degrees less than in the preceding Von der Tann, and[,] as a consequence, the range was slightly shorter, at 18,100 m (19,800 yd), than [the][to] 18,900 m (20,700 yd)[—the maximum range] of Von der Tann's guns" - suggest the edits indicated in square brackets.
    • If Dora and Emil were the rear turrets, then, presumably, the fore turret was Anton and the two side turrets were Bertha and Cäsar in accordance with the German_spelling_alphabet#Spelling_alphabet. It might be worth making this clear.
    • Were the ships able to fire a broadside of all 10 guns or was one of the side turrets blocked by the superstructure or other side turret from firing across the ship?
    • spell out semi-AP in full. The first "both" in this sentence is unnecessary.
    • link superfiring to superfire.
    • What is "Krupp cemented and nickel steel"?
  • --DavidCane (talk) 22:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Design section: "fully loaded" is synonymous with "at full displacement. All other suggestions implemented. 60% speed loss at hard rudder was pretty typical for German ships of the period (the Helgoland-class battleships were the lowest, at 54% speed loss, the Nassau-class battleship the highest at 70%. The battlecruisers were more consistent: all of them lost 60% speed, save the Derfflinger-class battlecruisers, which lost 65%. I don't have the figures for British ships of the period.
    • If it was a common characteristic (which should be cited) then that could be explained. In its present format, the sentence seems to indicate that this was, in some way, remarkable. --DavidCane (talk) 11:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gröner's gives the boiler pressure in atmospheres, to which I've changed the article. The tar oil was sprayed on the coal in order to make it burn better. I've added a note stating as much. All other suggestions implemented.
  • "B" was initially "Bruno"; other than that I've added the turret alphabetical names. Yes, over a limited range, the wing turrets could fire across the deck, but I don't have exact figures for the train limits. I believe there were also significant blast damage, but I can't recall where I read that. I can't tell you what Krupp cemented nickle steel is, other than it's a steel alloy that incorporates nickle, and that it's not produced by the Cementation process. It's mentioned in the 1910 Britannica Armor plates, but it doesn't actually give any information as to the process Krupp used. It's described here with more details about the process. At some point, an article on Krupp cemented steel may be a good idea. Parsecboy (talk) 00:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • To reply to the two comments not yet struck: Groner's only gives those figures for fuel consumption, and I don't know how to convert it to what you suggest; I tried doing so, but the result isn't right. Until I can find specific information about the ships' full broadside range (and a source for the citation, of course), I'm not going to add anything about it to the article. Parsecboy (talk) 00:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • I've made my attempts at copyediting; please change what you would like back if it is wrong/worse, as I'm not a great copyeditor (I just go with what sounds better!)
    • An explanation of when "9% heeling" is would be nice. I might write battleship articles, but I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. :)
    • "However, the conflict reignited less than a month later on 29 June; this meant that the ships would have to remain in the area." What's the relationship here? The conflict starting up again did not force them to stay; it's not like they were doing a lot anyway (they were visiting ports).
    • "Following the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in July 1914, Rear Admiral Wilhelm Souchon recognized the imminent outbreak of war, and so immediately sailed to Pola for repair work for Goeben. The ships were pursued by British forces, but Goeben and Breslau managed to evade them and reach Istanbul by 10 August 1914." What happened in between repairs and Pola? (or did she depart Pola for Istanbul?)
    • "Known as Yavuz for short, she was made the flagship of the Ottoman Navy." Could this be better worded as "Popularly known as Yavaz, she was designated as the flagship of the Ottoman Navy."
    • "In 1936 she was renamed TCG Yavuz and remained the flagship of the Turkish Navy until 1950, although the ship was stationary in Izmit." If she never moved from Izmit, which is what this sentence implies (to me, at least), why is there a 1946 picture of her in Istanbul? ;) —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 04:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the review, Ed. The copyedits look good, so no problems there :) It was supposed to be 9 degrees heeling, but I must've gotten my wires crossed in between reading it and typing it in. Goeben and Breslau were sent to the Med as a response to the outbreak of war; I'd assume the High Command was attempting a show of force to influence the situation. Sort of like how the US Navy sends carrier battle groups to troubled areas in an attempt to influence things nowadays. The ships did indeed leave Pola once the repairs were completed, and headed straight for Istanbul/Constantinople. The ship was stationary after 1948, which I had not specified in the article, for some unknown reason (of maybe some interest, the photo of her in Istanbul in 1946 was during the visit of USS Missouri. Thanks again for the help. Parsecboy (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments from David Cane
  • Service History - Moltke
    • "The ship met her end when she was scuttled, along with the rest of the High Seas Fleet in 1919 to prevent them from falling into British hands." Need to make it clear that it was the German crew on board that scuttled Moltke. Also, if the ship and its crew were interned by the British at Scapa Flow, then, arguably they had already fallen into British hands. According to the scuttling article, the British wanted the fleet destroyed anyway to avoid bolstering the fleets of other nations by any redistribution. It might be better to say the fleet was scuttled to prevent its seizure and transfer to allied navies.
  • Goeben
    • Franz Ferdinand was assassinated on 28 June 1914 not "in July".
    • I think a better explanation of how the gift of the Goeben to the Ottoman Empire helped bring the empire into the war on the German side.
    • The offer to the West Germany government would have been to sell the ship back not to buy it back.
  • --DavidCane (talk) 11:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional Support - I'll have an even more detailed look through in the next few hours, but it seems like anything I noticed on the initial review a few days ago has been fixed. Skinny87 (talk) 07:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Be sure to spell out the primary units in full on their first appearance. I caught "centimeter", but there may be others (kg?). Dabomb87 (talk) 15:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Mediterranean Division is a strange redlink, unlikely to be filled ... Mediterranean Division of What ? In the same paragraph, 28 cm is hyphenated once, not hyphenated once. Please ask Maralia to look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I removed the redlink for now (I may at some point create an article about the squadron, but maybe not). The hyphen for "28-cm" was wrong; I've removed it. Thanks for your suggestions, sometimes it's easy to miss the little things. Parsecboy (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional support

  • "Royal Navy" sounds distincltly not American. Why "caliber" and "centimeter"? And "armor"?
  • I'm seeing more of this type of thing: between 1973–1976. See WP:MOSHYPHEN ... "between 1973 and 1976". It recurs in a poor context at the end: "broken up between 1973–1976—the last remaining ship"; here, "and" will fix it, as required in any context. (Exception: your "to 1909–10" is fine, since the range is a kind of blob, a building year; do you agree?)
  • One or two single-digit numbers that MoS says should probably be spelled out. (e.g., 3, 6) ... it's no bid deal, though, since there are lots of numerals in the vicinity. Tony (talk) 05:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This class of ships has no particularly strong ties to the UK (it's not a British ship, after all—my view is that ENGVAR applies to things that are distinctly British or American, like Westminster Abbey or the Gettysburg Address; things that are only obliquely related can go either way. The equivalent would be requiring Montojo's flagship at Manila Bay to be written in AE because it fought American ships, which is a bit of a stretch in my opinion). That and I'm an American, and I started this article, so I wrote it in the variation that's more familiar to me (it was a bit of a headache when I wrote SMS Von der Tann in BE, because I had to constantly weed through things I had written in AE)
  • I fixed the ndash in the last section, I didn't see any others that needed fixing (yeah, the 1908-09/1909-1910 seem to be correct to me)
  • I seem to remember learning in a grade school English class that if there was more than one number if a sentence, you'd use numerals. I could be remembering that incorrectly though. Thanks for your review. Parsecboy (talk) 11:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, looks good. A couple comments/requests:
    • "This was 7.5 degrees less than in the preceding Von der Tann" Avoid the ambiguous "this" in reference to something prior. This what?
    • "there was some consideration given to" This seems like a laborious way of saying simply "<subject> considered".
--Laser brain (talk) 18:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:33, 9 June 2009 [32].

The Hardy Boys

Nominator(s): Ricardiana (talk) 01:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article status because it recently passed GA with a detailed and helpful review, and still more recently received a peer review that was likewise filled with thoughtful comments and helpful suggestions. I believe that the article now fulfills the FA criteria, but if I'm wrong, this process will help me improve the article further. Ricardiana (talk) 01:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it is possible to somehow link to "Mystery of the Urinal Deuce" as this episode blatantly spoofed them and it demonstrates their reception in popular culture, specifically supporting the claim in the lead of "homeerotic overtones." Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 02:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but when I looked for reliable sources, I couldn't find any that I thought would count as reliable. Do you have any suggestions? You're right, it would be a helpful addition. Ricardiana (talk) 02:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll check. Also, I see "Jerry Gilroy" is redlinked. Perhaps this can be imported to Wikipedia and we can improve from there? Best, --A NobodyMy talk 02:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And I've checked. Maybe, this from Google News, which if you check the full article notes "gay references to 'The Hardly Boys' (a play on the 'The Hardy Boys' series). Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 02:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I can't read the whole article; it says "Free Trial", which I'm investigating right now. Also, it appears to be from a college newspaper - do you think that will count as a reliable source? It didn't show up in any of the databases I usually use. So far I've checked: Google Books, Google Archive News Search, Lexis Nexis, Access World News, MLA, JStor, and Project Muse. ~ About Jerry Gilroy - you're the expert on articles like this; your idea sounds fine to me. Best, Ricardiana (talk) 03:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We would need an admin to import here and again, upon importing, I will gladly almost immediately begin expansion using Google Books results. Also, this one says, ""Mystery of the Urinal Deuce" is inspired by all the 9/11 conspiracies that propagated after the event (and also has one of the funniest Hardy Boys parodies I have ever seen)." Best, --A NobodyMy talk 03:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Gilroy - sounds good to me. ~ Is tvsquad.com a reliable source? Also, I tried signing up for the "FREE!" trial and they want my credit card info. I don't want to give that out. Since you seem to have the whole article, could you post it on my talk-age or wiki-email it to me, by any chance? I would greatly appreciate it. Best, Ricardiana (talk) 03:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I've put in a request at Brighterorange's talk page. Ricardiana (talk) 19:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Brighterorange kindly ran his tool on the refs and citations; I have checked the text of the entire article. Everything should be OK now. Ricardiana (talk) 23:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I looked through the article when Nancy Drew was at FAC, and thought it FA status already from a glance. Since the above concerns are now over and done with, I can withhold my support nay longer. ceranthor 15:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I have watched closely as this article has gone from "B class" to a "GA", and definitely think this article is worthy FA status. One thing I might point out, is that, I think, "premise" would be a better name for the section currently entitled "characters". WHLfan (talk) 06:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, WHLfan - I'll change that in just a second. Ricardiana (talk) 17:07, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed. Ricardiana (talk) 17:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I'm pleased to support this interesting and well-written article, which I believe meets the criteria. I thought the article was excellent when I peer-reviewed it recently, and it has gotten better since then. All of my concerns have been addressed, although on a re-read today, I saw two minor things I had not noticed before. Neither prevents my support, but I thought I should mention them. (1) In the quote in the "Ghostwriters" section, "roughly equivalent to two month's wages for a typical newspaper reporter... ", shouldn't it be "months' " rather than "month's"? (2) In the "1927–1959" section, the first four lines of the Burgess blockquote bump into the blue quote box. This bumping might not occur on all computer monitors, but it looks odd on mine. Could the layout be tweaked a bit to eliminate the bumping? Perhaps the blue box could be made wider and shorter? Finetooth (talk) 02:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, great catches, Finetooth! You're absolutely right about the apostrophe. I'll fix that in a second. The blue box looks okay on my computer, but you're right, it should look good on all monitors. I'll try making the box wider and shorter, as you suggest - I'll post here when I've done that. Please let me know how it looks. Ricardiana (talk) 17:07, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changes made - let me know what you think about the width of the blue box. Thanks, Ricardiana (talk) 17:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All fixed. It looks fine. Finetooth (talk) 19:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As discussed during Awadewit's GA review, Keeline has published a number of articles on the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew. He is indexed in the MLA International Bibliography. Ricardiana (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to SEGA site link; added publisher. Ricardiana (talk) 19:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – My only complaint is that every paragraph in Premise begins with The Hardy Boys. I'd like to see at least one of them changed to provide some variety. Besides that, I think it's a top-notch article. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed beginning of third para. Ricardiana (talk) 00:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:33, 9 June 2009 [33].

Wilfrid

Nominator(s): Ealdgyth, User:Malleus Fatuorum, User:Ning-ning


I am nominating this for featured article because... I think he's ready. Copyedits by Malleus and Ning-ning. More copyediting by both of them. Content checking by Deacon. Enough research to make me sick of the 7th century. I present to you, Wilfrid, saint and well... something else. This isn't your typical otherworldly saint, he's very much the nobleman. Exiled a number of times for clashing with kings, he practically wore a path between England and Rome all by himself. Bishop in a number of places, friend and foe of numerous kings and queens, Wilfrid's very much a larger than life figure. He's also a very very large article, almost 7900 words. 190 footnotes. A source list that would scare me if I had to review it (which, luckily, I don't.) Karan, or Sandy, can you add a co-nom here for Malleus and Ning-ning, please? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Congratulations on a very thorough and extensively sourced article! I enjoyed reading the different points of view from various sources on his life. I made some minor adjustments in prose and MOS and eliminated part of the last sentence of the lead that said "most historians ....". "Some historians..." might be more accurate if you want to keep that sentence but I did not think it was an encyclopedic comment, just scholarly opinion from a few sources. At the bottom of the article one historian calls him "Ascetic". Although I don't have a source, I read once about a bishop who travelled with others for protection. Since Wilfrid's own life was sought on one of his travels, his entourage might also have served this purpose. I compared this article to that found in the Catholic Encyclopedia and found them to be comparable regarding factual content. The Wikipedia article did not omit any major facts and provided a more comprehensive account of Wilfrid's life from a variety of viewpoints. This is worthy to be Featured Article. NancyHeise talk 19:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
thanks Nancy, but you should know the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is the one found all over the internet, was written in 1913 (unless you're looking at the New Catholic Encyclopedia) and I should hope this article is more comprehensive ... As far as the last sentence of the lead, I think it's well substantiated by the sources. The verdict on Wilfrid is pretty uniform, no one says he was a bad man nor that he wasn't ascetic, but he was also proud, and not afraid of controversy. Not worth worrying over though. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ealdgyth, I was looking at the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, not the New. Your article is much more comprehensive, yes, and very well done. Feel free to revert any of my changes, they are all minor and do not impede my support. NancyHeise talk 02:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support A well-written and impressively-researched article, especially given the relative obscurity of the figure and the comparative difficulty of finding good sources on British figures of the Dark Ages (as opposed to, say, some modern American figure). Ricardiana (talk) 23:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support and tiny nitpick A nice article, can't be many 7th century saints, bishops or missionaries left (I hope!) Now, just to show how picky FAC can be, in your source Yorke (2003), Martin Carver has his first name preceding surname, every other name in the references has the reverse order, including the otherwise similar Wolfe (2001) which has "in Brown, Michelle P.; Farr, Carol Ann." Can we have it as Carver, Martin please? jimfbleak (talk) 06:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • never mind, I've fixed it myself

Comment: I've only read the lead so far; here are a few minor prose points for consideration:-

  • "Theodore of Tarsus resolved the situation in Northumbria by deposing Ceadda and restoring Wilfrid as the Bishop of Northumbria." The final "of Northumbria" seems repetitive; why not just say "restoring Wilfrid as Bishop"?
  • "His diocese was very large however,..." Inelegant. Either insert another comma after "large", or better, delete the however, which isn't really necessary. (Another alternative is "However, his diocese was very large,...")
  • Last paragraph: the first and last sentences are related, and should run together. Also, can you do something about the "...Wilfred. Wilfred..." that comes in the middle? And "monasticism" should be linked.

Brianboulton (talk) 10:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last paragraph; didn't edit that because the first sentence, with "historians then and now", is linked to the immediately following reference to Bede, a "then" historian. Ning-ning (talk) 12:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other prose points have been attended to. Ning-ning (talk) 12:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:33, 9 June 2009 [34].

Subtropical Storm Andrea (2007)

Nominator(s): ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it's June 1st, the start of hurricane season, and we just had a hurricane TFA. Two fellow hurricane editors took a look at the article to make sure it was up to scraps, and they suggested I FAC it. Here goes nothing. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Why not? Everything seems to be fine. mynameinc (t|c|o|r) 12:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC) Weak oppose Forgot to check references. I found 13 dead links and one non-applicable reference. mynameinc (t|c|o|r) 13:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per dead links, otherwise the article is fine. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC) Support Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some fixed. Not sure what to do about the dead tropical disturbance statements, though. –Juliancolton | Talk 14:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dead links all sorted Jason Rees (talk) 14:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 14 (Rhome..) is lacking a publisher
  • Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (I'm not seeing any deadlinks with the tool at the moment.) Ealdgyth - Talk 14:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Publisher (National Hurricane Center) added. But about {{cite news}}: Why? Isn't that going to break the next time the template is changed? Why is such a widely-used template not following the MoS anyways? </rant> Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, if you think about it, the template makes sense in terms of newspapers. The publisher of a newspaper is the company that publishes it. The newspaper itself is the work. Look at it in comparison to {{cite book}}. The thing in italics in that is the title of the book, and the publisher is in plain text. All the cite templates actually make sense. {{cite web}} uses work for the overarching grouping on a website, so something like DANFS is the "Work" and the publisher is the Naval Historical Center. Just think "work" as the title of the book and publisher as the people who pay the bills. (And we don't need publishers for newspaper cites, unless you're really anal.)
I guess I should make it explicit: I fixed it a while ago... Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support though i suggest something about the long gap between Cliff and Andrea as i have read somewhere its a record. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason Rees (talk • contribs)

Support Since refs are fixed, I see no reason not to support. mynameinc (t|c|o|r) 20:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image concern as follows:

Other Images are verifiably in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 05:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The link is a "floater", which means it is a zoom in of a water-vapor scan from the GOES-EAST satellite (the normal link for the unzoomed animation would be http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/eaus/loop-wv.html). However, since there are only four available floater channels (for reasons too long to explain in here), the exact link in which the image was located (probably http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/loop-wv.html or similar) gets overwritten every fourth tropical storm, when the rest of the floaters have been allocated and the counter loops around. So the most precise way to get to floater images is to go to the original link (or to http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/floaters.html) and scroll down to the floaters section, and pick one, as that is how the image was originally obtained. However, it is not available there anymore (at least without purchasing the relevant GOES-EAST data set...). So I'm not sure how to address your request. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 09:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Image use policy page doesn't give a size limit to animated images. and though 4.6 mb is pretty big, I feel it is worth it, as the loop is stunning in how it shows such an unusual formation occur. We have similar images on other tropical cyclone articles, since a stationary image often doesn't do a storm justice. As for the location of it, I apologize it doesn't have a static link, but I'm afraid Tito is correct. The same issue came up for another FAC of mine. I hope that isn't a problem. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 13:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think we can accept the image's license, see its talk page on Commons why evidence suggests so. As for the image size, I will let others decide on it if they desire. Jappalang (talk) 14:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ImageMagick is not rendering the image now, so we may have to get a static shot. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The loop works fine for me. To avoid any issues, should we still replace it? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It just started rendering for me again. I don't know... I don't have a strong opinion on the issue, one way or another. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 05:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Anhamirak 14:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:33, 9 June 2009 [35].

Tropical Storm Marco (2008)

Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that this article meets the criteria for a featured article. It's been looked over many times attaining A-class status and recently has undergone a peer review. Hopefully this time most of the concerns with prose are minor or non-existent. As always, all thoughts and comments are welcome. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Good job on the article. I have A few minor style issues, though. I'd also like some clarification on a few points outlined below as well as more information generally speaking.
    • "a tropical wave reached the same area, and the system spawned circulation center over Belize." Is it some kind of hurricane jargon not to use an article with circulation center? It seems to me, that this should read "spawned a circulation center" or "spawned its circulation center" or seomthing like that.
Done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "falling at rates up to 1 inches (25.4 mm) per hour," Should be up to 1 inch per hour.
Done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • " The rains from Marco worsened flood situations in areas of Mexico already suffering from severe flooding." Why were they already suffering flooding?
Heavy rains prior to Marco I presume. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 11:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Any idea when those rains took place? Were they result of another cyclone? Cool3 (talk) 18:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Early/mid September to Mid/late October. It was the result of cold fronts and tropical waves. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "One river that overflowed its banks flooded left the towns of Minatitlan and Hidalgotitlan under 10 ft (3 m) of water." I think you need to remove "flooded" for this sentence to make sense. Also, what was the name of the river?
Source doesn't specify Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "when a lake and a river overflowed their banks." What lake? What river?
Source doesn't specify Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can't find the name of the lake but I found the two rivers. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The Government of Mexico reported that 4,700 blankets, 2,900 mattresses, 5,554 bottles of water (each containing 500 milliliters), 260,000 boxes of milk, 250,000 packages of biscuits, and 12,400 boxes of school supplies." That's not a sentence. I believe you should have something like "had been distributed" at the end.
Done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The placement of the final paragraph is odd. It would seem to make more sense somewhere else, though I'm not quite sure where.
I'm not sure how it's odd, that's where the tropical cyclone project always puts records and retirement notes about tropical cyclones. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I mean specifically "At 0052 UTC on October 7, tropical storm force winds extended 11.5 miles (18.5 km) from the center of Marco. This made Marco the smallest tropical cyclone ever recorded, surpassing the previous record set by Cyclone Tracy on December 24, 1974 when gale force winds extended 30 miles (48 km)" This seems like it would better belong in the Meteorological history section as it is meteorological. If this sort of placement is indeed customary, then I will bow to custom. Cool3 (talk) 18:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's the record set by Marco, that's why it's in the Preparations, impact and records section which is how the project generally does it. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's only 861 words of readable prose. There's really nothing else to say? Personally, I get to the end, and think: that's it?
    • Source number 21 comes from the Xinhua News Agency, which is sometimes criticized for distortion and unreliability. If there's no other source for the number of people affected, then I don't have a problem with referencing Xinhua, but if you have another source, I think that would be preferable.
Xinhua has never been a problem for TC's, they always report properly form what I've seen in their reports. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Any idea how many people were injured?
No one was injured. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not even slightly? Not so much as a broken bone? Cool3 (talk) 04:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This does indeed seem to be the case and I think it's significant enough to work into the text of the article. If you don't already have a source explicitly stating there were no injuries, one can be found here. Cool3 (talk) 04:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really notable but I added it in anyways, I cited the TCR as it's much more reliable than that blog. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 04:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Any idea on the dollar value of the damages?
No source has this information. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the paragraph on Marco being the smallest hurricane, you state "tropical storm force winds extended 11.5 miles" for Marco but "gale force winds extended 30 miles" Is this comparing the same thing? Are gale force and tropical storm force the same velocity? If so, I'd suggest referring to both with the same name to avoid possible confusion. If the two are different, then an explanation of what this comparison means would be quite helpful.
Fixed Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall, I'm sorry to say that I'm not convinced this is quite FA worthy. I've simply never seen one quite this short, and I think there's probably more to say. Cool3 (talk) 04:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm quite sure that there is not any more information available for this storm. It's a very short-lived storm, lasting less than two days, but is notable due to its size record. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 11:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I did another search through Spanish sources and found very little additional information, mainly between pages 12 and 19 of my search. After that, there was nothing so I believe I've used all available sources for the article. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the source check Ealdgyth. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Nice work. Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox

Support - I doubt you could extend this out much as the storm lasted for two days.Jason Rees (talk) 15:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: images are verifiably in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 02:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the image review Jappalang. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 02:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - for a short, but well-written and researched contribution. Graham Colm Talk 12:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:33, 9 June 2009 [36].

1941 Florida hurricane

Nominator(s): –Juliancolton | Talk 20:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC), Cool3[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it's been archived twice with no outstanding concerns; third time's the charm? –Juliancolton | Talk 20:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Provisional Oppose. I feel like a lot of details I'd like to know are missing, and that's not a good feeling after reading a featured article. Also a few nitpicky style issues. (Involved) support. I think this is now an excellent article and fully satisfies the FA criteria (full disclosure: I have contributed a large amount of content to the current version of the article and have been named as a co-nominator. Thus, I may not be considered entirely neutral). Cool3 (talk) 03:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Cool3
    • "Evacuations were recommended from Homestead to Key West." How many people followed the recommendations? Did most people evacuate? Few?
    • "No casualties occurred in the cit." What is the cit? Typo for city I assume?
    • "Properties and gardens received significant damage." How much damage is "significant damage"?
    • "Several communities lost electricity" How many is several?
    • "barometric pressure fell to 982 mb". This should probably be written out (and preferably linked) to millibar.
    • "five men drowned in the storm tide at a fishing net drying yard." Where was the yard? (Panacea, Florida)
    • They may just not be available, but it would be very nice to see some pictures of the damage associated with the storm.
    • "When the United States entered World War II, new vehicles become unavailable, forcing residents to resort to horse-drawn carriages for transportation." The storm was in October 1941. The United States entered WWII in December 1941.
    • You give a figure of $675,000 as the total damage in the infobox, but in the article you state "total losses in the state are estimated at $675,000 (1941 USD)", seeming to suggest that that figure only refers to the damage in Florida. What about the damage in the Bahamas and in Georgia?
      • According to the source, "total damages [...] were estimated at $675,000 [...] divided between the northern and southern portions of the state" (the state being Florida presumably). –Juliancolton | Talk 15:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I get no sense of the historical significance of the hurricane. Is it one remembered for anything? Does anyone still talk about it?
      • Compared to other storms Florida has seen, this one was relatively insignificant; moreover, considering how long ago it was, info is scarce. I've found no info on historical context, and I highly doubt any is available. –Juliancolton | Talk 15:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Initially, there were reports of 20 missing fishermen." I assume they were all found? It would be nice to state that.
    • As I look around for more sources, I continually find references to how unusual the rainfall distribution of this hurricane was (the light rainfall in South Florida). As a matter of fact, this rainfall distribution pattern seems to have been the lasting legacy of the hurricane (insofar as it had one). The article does briefly refer to the rainfall pattern, but perhaps a more involved discussion would be appropriate? Of course, such a discussion might be entirely too technical, but our featured articles should satisfy the expert and a discussion on this point seems necessary in order to do so. Cool3 (talk) 20:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I thought about that as well. There are entire documents devoted to this aspect of the storm, but I was concerned that the article would become too technical. I do agree with you, though, in that it should be covered more extensively in the article, so I'll add a few more relevant sentences. –Juliancolton | Talk 20:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the whole, a great article. I look forward to supporting once my concerns are addressed. Cool3 (talk) 15:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]



Almost there. I just did a copyedit. The article is very factual, very precise, but I'm wondering if we can inject more color (the people collecting pecans blown out of tress, for example) and more of how this hurricane affected the particular terrain and people it passed over. We might be able to find out that kind of information in sources other than storm reports. I'll work with JC on this. - Dank (push to talk) 00:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into this. –Juliancolton | Talk 19:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added a bit more. –Juliancolton | Talk 20:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I've checked everything at http://www.newspaperarchive.com, and JC has checked everything at the hurricane news archive. My guess is anything else JC might say would be WP:OR, so unless someone has some ideas, I think we're done. - Dank (push to talk) 21:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I like the additions. In a different article, I might object on the basis that they're too "slice of life", but I think understanding how real lives were affected and how the media covered the event at the time adds color and interest. - Dank (push to talk) 19:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Nicely done JC and everyone else who contributed. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
    • "powerlines" and "power lines"
    • "At the time, the storm was determined to be a compact, well-developed hurricane." Sounds like the storm had a personality, and it was determined to do something.
    • Even if the source uses the anachronistic "firemen", we don't have to.
    • "three Coast Guard planes dropped warnings to boats near the Florida coast." What does this mean?
      They dropped warnings (leaflets I assume) to tell boats that the hurricane was approaching. Cool3 (talk) 20:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "A detachment of officers from the Florida Highway Patrol were sent to Miami and patrolled along highways to provide gas to motorists evacuating the storm." A detachment was. And, do you mean "fuel" or "gasoline"? "Gas" is too non-specific or colloquial.
      Grammar fixed, thanks for pointing that out. It was gasoline; I've clarified that. Cool3 (talk) 20:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "including a schooner, four sailboats" A schooner is a sailboat. Sailboat is a more general category of boats operating under sail power. Either say five sailboats or be more specific for the four.
      Clarified as well as possible to "four smaller sailboats". The sources don't say how they were rigged, but they were smaller than the schooner. As a matter of fact, the other source reveals that they were four sloops. Cool3 (talk) 20:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "On Cat Island, the storm produced a rainfall total of 1.62 inches (41 mm)." I don't know, "1.62 inches (41 mm) of rainfall" is so much more elegant.
--Laser brain (talk) 20:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Most of these should be fixed. Thanks for the review, –Juliancolton | Talk 21:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • "and entered the Atlantic Ocean on October 8." Picky stuff, but can you put a non-breaking space between the "October" and "8"? The line breaks between the two on my monitor.
    Done.
  • "although there was unusually little rainfall in some areas." The verb "to be" is very weak here; how about "although some areas received unusually litttle rainfall"? Also, I don't see the use of "although"; do high winds automatically mean lots of rainfall? I've experienced plenty of times when that's happened where I live.
    This is indeed highly unusual for a tropical cyclone. Indeed, one of the sources for the article, "An Analysis of an Unusual Rainfall Distribution in a Hurricane" is devoted to the topic of the light rainfall in Florida. To quote from it: "The purpose of this thesis is to investigate the reason for the surprisingly light rainfall in a recent tropical hurricane. In most meteorology textbooks, hurricanes are said to be accompanied by heavy rainfall." I believe JC is working on a little extra content on this subject at the moment. Cool3 (talk) 23:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More comments later. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This article was promoted, and I have supported because whatever concerns I've had or might still have aren't enough to obscure the fact that this article is worthy of the FA star. I will continue the review on the talk page. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [37].

Battersea Bridge

Nominator(s):  – iridescent 22:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Did You Know… that the great×8 grandfather of the Princess of Wales commissioned Battersea Bridge, and in 2006 a whale was found under the bridge? Coincidence? You decide…

Yet another one in the Thames Bridges series, and hopefully those who know it only as the rather unloved current bridge will be interested to see that there's a genuinely interesting history behind it, while those who don't know it at all will see that the parts of London outside the City and West End tourist centres and the leafy suburbs have interesting stories in their own right. As with the last couple in this series, I think this says everything that ought to be said on the topic without going into excessive detail. – iridescent 22:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Copy-edited (n-dashes, some repetitive word usage, etc.)
  • Harvard links from footnotes to references checked. Publication year for Pay, Lloyd and Waldegrave corrected, now consistent with date listed in references section. All links from notes to references work correctly.
  • Article has no ambiguous links. JN466 09:10, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
least busy.. - pity there ain't a positive ta use 'ere. I'd say "quietest" but not sure how general that is.
Parliamentary concerns about the reliability of the bridge obliged the Battersea Bridge Company to provide a ferry service.. "obliged" sounds funny used in the active here, but I am having trouble thinking of an alternative.
Addendum - actually I did think of one more thing - is there anything on how the presence of a new crossing impacted on the development (or otherwise) of Battersea? I remember reading about the history of the Sydney Harbour Bridge and it was interesting how surrounding areas change with new crossings etc. This would be a good addition and I hope it can be found :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Trouble is, there isn't an obvious antonym for "busy". "Quietest" has connotations of noise (and the much busier London Bridge, for example, built in the 1970s with the advantage of 75 years of technological advances, probably generates less noise).
The wording in the original source was "a clause was inserted into the Act to the effect that [Spencer] must provide a ferry service at the same rate as the bridge tolls in case the bridge was closed for repairs". I was trying to summarise it in a less clumsy way. I can't think of a less clumsy word than "obliged", but if anyone can, feel free to change it.
Because it was sandwiched between two existing bridges a couple of miles either side, and because there wasn't a major north/south road here, Battersea Bridge didn't have the same impact on development as, for example, Vauxhall Bridge did in opening up the south bank. Because of the time period in question, it's pretty much impossible to separate out what development (if any) was due to the bridge itself, from the broader urban sprawl caused by the railways. Certainly on this map of 1850 – 80 years after the bridge opened – the Battersea side is still farmland (and, oddly, a turpentine factory), while the Chelsea side marks the western limit of London, which makes me think that the driving factor in growth was Battersea railway station (opened 1863) and not the bridge. – iridescent 14:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good reasoning and noted. That would be good to put in article if it can be referenced that it didn't impact on the development, but I concede that might not actually be mentioned anywhere, so again, no biggie. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestions for "obliged":
  1. Parliament was concerned about the reliability of the bridge and required the Battersea Bridge Company to provide a ferry service ... (in that case, change "required" to "needed" a couple of sentences earlier on, to avoid the repetition of "required")
  2. Due to parliamentary concerns about the reliability of the bridge, the Battersea Bridge Company was obliged to provide a ferry service ...
  3. Concerns were expressed in parliament about the reliability of the bridge, and the Battersea Bridge Company was obliged to provide a ferry service ...
Looking at the flow of the paragraph as a whole, I think my preference would be for no. 3. JN466 14:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestions for "least busy":
  1. As the narrowest surviving road bridge over the Thames in London, it carries less traffic than most of the other Thames bridges in London.
  2. The narrowest surviving road bridge over the Thames in London, it is less busy than most of the other Thames bridges in London. JN466 14:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with 3 for "obliged" and have changed it accordingly. Regarding "least busy", I personally think "one of the least busy" scans better than "less busy than most of the others" – that "most of the others" sounds a bit so-what to me – but wouldn't lose sleep either way. – iridescent 15:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. The only other solution I could offer would be As the narrowest surviving road bridge over the Thames in London, it carries comparatively little traffic. But I have no problem with the current text either. JN466 15:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Me to with no. 3 for "obliged", and agree the other is tricky and was pondering out loud more than anything. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Potentially useful info at: Conservation of bridges By G. P. Tilly, Alan Frost, Jon Wallsgrove, Gifford and Partners Taylor & Francis, 2002. ISBN 0419259104. pp. 87-88. Ling.Nut (talk) 08:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apparently 15,000 vehicles/pedestrians (?) traverse the bridge in a 12-hour period, see p. 401 An Economic Study of the City of London. By John Dunning, Economists Advisory Group, E. Victor Morgan, City of London (England). Court of Common Council. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415313481 Ling.Nut (talk) 09:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mmmm, apparently Hilaire Belloc wrote a poem called "stanzas written on Battersea Bridge during a South-Westerly gale," the full text of which is online. Ling.Nut (talk) 09:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Will have a look at the "Conservation" one if I can find it. Cookson, which I've used quite heavily as a source, references it in the bibliography so I suspect any relevant material is already there; I don't want to get too heavily into the 1992 restoration (which isn't all that major a development, consisting mainly of repainting it back to its original colors and restoring the design of the original lamp-posts).
Regarding passenger traffic, on all this series I'm using Transport for London's AADT figure for 2004 (the most recent I can find that lists all the bridges, so the one I've used for consistency in comparison) which in this case was 26,041. Personally I think using multiple data sets would be too confusing, as well as the ambiguity of "12 hour period" (1900-0700 presumably has a completely different traffic pattern to 0700-1900, for example).
There are quite a lot of poems, letters etc – Wordsworth & Tennyson certainly wrote about it as well. While I've included a section on its significance in painting (as the subject of Whistler v Ruskin, Whistler's paintings of the bridge in particular were seminal in establishing impressionism as a mainstream form), I'm reluctant to go down the "…in popular culture" route; one can generally find some poem by someone about virtually any 18th-19th century landmark. – iridescent 16:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Coincidence, or conspiracy? You decide. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Well written, comprehensive, good images, well referenced. JN466 13:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [38].

William Barley

Nominator(s): User:TwilligToves


Taking the leap and nominating one of the articles that I started and have edited off-and-on for a while now. A short little bio on a "somewhat remarkable" Elizabethan music publisher who apparently isn't worthy of Grove ODNB. My biggest worry on this one is whether I adequately explained the confusing nature of Elizabethan printing patents in a concise manner. Thanks in advance for the reviews. BuddingJournalist 05:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Looks like a very good article overall. There is ambiguity at certain points, but I assume that is because of the limitations of the avaliable sources. Richard Byrd is a disambiguation link, and none of the articles there are about a 1500s composer. Will do a full read-through, and probably offer my support afterwards. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, thanks for catching that. Should be William Byrd not Richard. Doh. Look forward to your review. BuddingJournalist 05:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Caught only a few things during a full read-through:
  • The captions should have periods because they are full sentences.
  • Drapers' Company: "and other drapers/booksellers joined the company within a few years so that they could continue their trade." Any way that the slash could be removed, such as using a hyphen or saying "drapers and booksellers" or similar?
  • Stationers' Company: "From 1606 to 1613, less than half of the music books published from 1606 to 1613 recognized Barley's rights on the imprint." Would be good to see that re-worded without the repetition. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the review, Giants.
  • Support - A well-written and impressively-researched article; finding information on an Elizabethan music publisher not covered by Grove is no easy task, and this article pulls it off in a polished manner. Ricardiana (talk) 23:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support...I actually meant to say ODNB above, not Grove (heck, I even cite Grove, so I don't how I managed to say Grove up there...). :) TwilligToves (talk) 09:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional Support - I endorse the positive comments above. Two small things:
  • note 1 says "This notion has been discredited by more modern scholarship." I'd welcome a bit more detail. Would that be Lavin and/or Johnson?
  • "privileged persons" (privilegiati) at Oxford University is a status with a precise meaning that won't be understood by most readers, and was perhaps less elevated than they might imagine. An explanation is here
William Avery (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review.
  • Lavin was the first to challenge this view. Johnson, Grove all agree with his viewpoint. I tweaked the note a bit...is the result OK?
  • I added a short sentence clarifying Oxford's notion of "privileged persons" and added your link as a source. Clark, too, has a great explanation on this, even though it's over a century old source. TwilligToves (talk) 12:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: no portraits (nobody bothers what a publisher looks like, unless he was patronised by kings). The two images used in this article are of the two works Barley has published, and are in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 03:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I thought the article was well-written and easy to follow. Good work! Karanacs (talk) 20:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [39].

Water fluoridation

Nominator(s): Eubulides (talk) 23:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This became a Good Article after a careful and helpful review from Doc James along with critical and ultimately supportive comments by II. It went through peer review with positive comments by Finetooth and a useful quick comment from Colin. Its first attempt at FA status did not reach consensus, but elicited comments from Xasodfuih, Peripitus, and Mattisse, all of which I've tried to address in edits since then.

Fluoridation is sometimes controversial. The article focuses on technical aspects and briefly summarizes the controversy in its Ethics and politics section, with a subarticle Opposition to water fluoridation (not part of this nomination) that goes into more detail. Eubulides (talk) 23:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about an image of severe dental fluorosis to contrast with the mild one?--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That wouldn't be appropriate, as this article is about water fluoridation (the controlled addition of fluoride to a public water supply to reduce tooth decay), and water fluoridation does not cause severe dental fluorosis. A good image of a severe case would be appropriate for Dental fluorosis article, though, if such an image could be found. Eubulides (talk) 04:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This paper says the rate has been found to be 0.3 and 0.6% in some studies. Now that we are getting fluoride from multiple sources this is becoming more of a concern.
And this one says "Chi-square tests showed a strong association between fluoride levels in well drinking water and severity fiuorosis of tooth #11 (/'<0.001). However, 16.1 % of the children exposed to 0.50-0.79 ppm F were free of dental fluorosis while about 24%) had severe dental fluorosis with pitting (TFI score a5)." Dental fluorosis in 12-15-year-old rural children exposed to fluorides from well drinkin water in the Hail region of Saudi Arabia Source: Community dentistry and oral epidemiolo [0301-5661] Akpata yr:1997vol:25 iss:4 pg:324
So I think this needs to be discussed in greater detail. Some areas have high natural levels of fluoride, some get fluoride from multiple sources, and sometimes the fluoridation equipment breaks down. Just saying that anything other than mild fluorosis does not occur from water fluoridation is a bit dishonest. Even though of course the risks of severe fluorisis is very small.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm struggling to find sources that give a rate of severe fluorosis due to artificial water fluoridation. I see some population studies, but it isn't clear they tell us anything about water fluoridation. At present, I don't see how we can judge whether "severe fluorosis" needs to be mentioned in this article at all, let alone have a picture of it. Colin°Talk 17:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This paper is the best I can find. There is a chart comparing various degrees of fluorosis among populations receiving natural water with sub-optimal fluoride, with those receiving optimal artificially fluoridated water, with those receiving naturally fluoridated water (where there there is no history of taking fluoride supplements). So water fluoridation could be judged "guilty of increasing" Questionable Fluorosis from 28.4% to 36.0%; Very Mild Fluorosis from 11.9% to 19.9%; Mild Fluorisis from 3.0% to 4.4% but no change in Moderate fluorosis at 0.3% and no change in Severe Fluorosis at 0.3%. I worked out the sample size of the suboptimal fluoride group who didn't take supplements was 41.3% of 2081 = 810. So 0.3% of that is 3 cases. In the artificially fluoridated group, the sample size was 85% of 1445 = 1228. And 0.3% of that is 4 cases. These are tiny numbers, so there really isn't enough data to know, in a large population, how many extra cases of moderate or severe fluorosis are due to water fluoridation, but if this is the best analysis we have, there currently isn't any evidence that water fluoridation is guilty of causing any extra cases of moderate or severe fluorosis. Colin°Talk 17:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think we should state something like "with normal water fluoridation rates of severe dental fluorosis or exceedingly low, however cases have been reported in certain population with risk factors ref, in cases in which equipment has failed and at low rates in populations who are receiving floride from muitiple sources ref" I came across a paper from Africa commenting on how malnutrition increases ones suceptibility to dental flurosis, we have had accedents upnorth that have lead to severe dental fluorosis and death, and have seen papers written about the concerns from fluoride when it is received from muitiple sources which would have been less true in 1980. Cheers --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't support your proposed text, which will make the reader think the "normal water fluoridation" is responsible for the "exceedingly low rates of severe dental fluorosis". Colin°Talk 19:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not saying that the papers above say the passage I have suggested but I could easily find papers to support what I have just written. This paper for instance found rates of severe fluorosis of 24.1% and 75.9% in mod to high natural fluoride areas. PMID 16430523
Now to set the record straight I am not saying that we should not fluorinate the water we just need to reasonabily discuss the side effects and benefits. Which I will say is mostly done at this point but could use a bit of further clarification.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We need to stick with sources that discuss artificial water fluoridation when dealing with side effects and benefits. Plus, although the initial clause of the proposed text is technically correct, it is quite misleading. Colin°Talk 19:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Also, please see my "Severe fluorosis issue" comment below. Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is the page just about artificial water fluoridation or water fluoridation in general? We all agree that some areas fluoride levels are so high they lead to severe dental flurosis in a large portion of the population naturally.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is just about artificial water fluoridation, but I do think it would be nice to have a picture of more noticeable fluorosis. My little brother and a couple of my cousins have worse fluorosis than the effect seen in that picture. Perhaps we should ask User:Dozenist, the dentist who contributed it, if he can come up with another picture with more noticeable fluorosis, since I'm sure he sees it. II | (t - c) 06:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The term "water fluoridation" means "controlled addition of fluoride to a public water supply to reduce tooth decay". This definition excludes fluoridation above recommended levels, a topic that is covered in detail somewhere else in Wikipedia. Although the Water fluoridation article briefly discusses the issue of fluoride above recommended levels, it does so only when this is directly relevant to the main topic.
  • Any new image should be chosen so as not to mislead a naive reader into thinking that there is reliable evidence that water fluoridation significantly increases the risk of aesthetically-objectionable dental fluorosis. (Such thinking would contradict both the York and the NHMRC reviews, our best reviews.) It's fine to use a image of non-aesthetically-objectionable fluorosis, as we have reliable sources saying this occurs. But aesthetically-objectionable fluorosis would stray from what our reliable sources are saying.
Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Severe fluorosis issue. Some of the above comments are based on the theory that water fluoridation is a significant cause of severe dental fluorosis. However, this simply isn't the case. Here are some comments about the 3 sources cited above:
  • Akpata et al. 1997 (PMID 9332811) is not about water fluoridation: it is about water naturally fluoridated above recommended levels. In that primary study, even the 10% of wells that were "low-fluoride" (0.50–0.79 mg/L fluoride) were above the levels recommended by the WHO for water fluoridation (0.5 mg/L in hot and dry climates). Also, the severe fluorosis observed in those wells could easily be explained by halo effects from even-higher-level wells, or by children moving any time in the past dozen years before the study (the study did not examine either issue).
  • Wondwossen et al. 2006 (PMID 16430523) is also not about water fluoridation; it is about moderate- and high-fluoride areas in the Ethiopian Rift Valley. Even its "moderate-fluoride" areas mostly consist of wells that are way above recommended levels (in some cases by a factor of 4).
  • Beltrán-Aguilar et al. 2002 (PMID 11868834) is directly relevant to water fluoridation, but as Colin said, it directly contradicts the claim that water fluoridation causes severe fluorosis.
While we're on the subject of severe dental fluorosis, unless I'm missing something we haven't seen reliable sources supporting the following claims made in comments above:
  • "cases have been reported in certain population with risk factors"
  • "we have had accedents upnorth that have lead to severe dental fluorosis and death" (We do have reliable sources on death, and that topic is covered in Water fluoridation #Safety; it's the severe-dental-fluorosis part of this claim that is dubious.)
  • "at low rates in populations who are receiving floride from muitiple sources"
  • "in cases in which equipment has failed".
Two other comments on dental fluorosis:
  • "I came across a paper from Africa commenting on how malnutrition increases ones suceptibility to dental flurosis" Can you please let us know the citation for that? Offhand it doesn't seem directly relevant to water fluoridation, but perhaps the source establishes the relevance.
  • Multiple reviews are available on the subject of water fluoridation and fluorosis. As per WP:MEDRS#Definitions and WP:PSTS, the Water fluoridation article should typically defer to what these reviews say, and should not cite primary sources in order to dispute the reviews.
Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the paper on equipment failure Waldbott GL (May 1981). "Mass intoxication from accidental overfluoridation of drinking water". Clin. Toxicol. 18 (5): 531–41. doi:10.3109/15563658108990280. PMID 7023807.
Here is papers that discusses many sources [40][41]
This one says "While the increase has occurred primarily in the very mild and mild categories of dental fluorosis, there is also some evidence that the prevalence is increasing in the moderate and severe classifications as well."[42]
--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the paper on many sources (Skotowski et al. 1995, PMID 7562728). I followed the reference chain to a recent review that discusses the topic (Alvarez et al. 2009, PMID 19179949, freely readable, yay!) and added some coverage of it. This review isn't the best quality, but it is reliable and it is certainly better than nothing.
  • The paper on equipment failure (Waldbott 1981, PMID 7023807) isn't relevant to fluorosis, as it doesn't mention fluorosis at all. More generally, that paper is a primary study of one overfeed incident, and for the overfeed issue we're better off using a reliable review that summarizes the topic. Water fluoridation #Safety already does this, citing Balbus and Lang 2001 (PMID 11579665).
  • As far as I know, the primary study about increase in moderate/severe fluorosis (Clark 1994, PMID 8070241) doesn't attribute this to water fluoridation, but to fluoride in general. Also, that study is rather old, and as fluoride practice has changed since then (particularly for infants) its current relevance is a bit suspect. A much more recent primary study by the same author (Clark et al. 2006, PMID 16674751) found no significant difference in dental fluorosis of aesthetic concern after water fluoridation was discontinued in one community, which suggests that water fluoridation was not a significant cause of the problem in that case. In any case Water fluoridation shouldn't be citing either of these primary sources by Clark now that it is citing a reliable review on the topic.
Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I think I'm confused about the difference between "topical fluorides" and the fact that all fluoride therapy works "topically". I'm guessing that fluoridated water doesn't much affect the teeth directly (contact between the water being held in the mouth briefly while drunk) but is absorbed and the fluoride comes back in the saliva. Is that correct? Could we say so in the mechanism section? Out of interest... I'm also guessing that mouthwash has the opposite mechanism in that you don't swallow it so it is only effective while some wash remains in your mouth. One of the sources commented that fluoride tablets can be more effective if sucked for as long as possible. Is that because it can have a directly-topical effect as well as the ingested...saliva route? Colin°Talk 12:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm pretty sure your intuition is wrong. When you drink fluoridated water, that water washes over the teeth and perhaps a bit of that water remains in your mouth, exerting a topical effect. Once it's drunk it's either excreted or distributed to the entire body as well as the mouth, significantly diluting any effect it would have on the mouth area. There's a paper which argues that the systemic effect is understated (Newbrun 2007), but I don't have access to the paper, and he's going against the consensus. I'd say at most the systemic effect is 10% (I seem to remember reading that from the NRC), more likely lower. II | (t - c) 07:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am also confused on the topical vs. topical-saliva issue. I have a few comments on the content issues saved to Notepad, but got distracted before chasing down the reference on topical effects. Perhaps Eubulides could elaborate. On a technical well-written and well-referenced basis though, the article is stellar.
Also, the topical bit I believe is mostly for adults. For children, systemic ingestion may be a little different. Again, it's been a while since I visited the topic, and the discussions are split between this and the "Opposition" article, so it's rather difficult to pin down where this has been discussed previously. Franamax (talk) 00:50, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the effect of fluoridated water is almost entirely topical, for both adults and children. A bit of fluoride does come back via plasma to the saliva, but this apparently doesn't benefit teeth much. For many years it was thought that there were systemic effects, but nowadays reliable sources generally agree that systemic effects have little benefit. (Newbrun evidently is an exception, but his 2007 paper is not cited much.) Thanks for bringing up this issue; I added some text to try to clear it up, citing Hellwig & Lennon 2004 (PMID 15153698) on topical vs systemic and Oganessian et al. 2007 (PMID 18780642) on plasma. (And thanks for the compliment, Franamax!) Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I think the sentence about "systemic (whole-body) fluoride" is still confusing as it mentions swallowing supplements rather than the swallowing of fluoridated water, which is more directly relevant to this article. Could we find a source that directly states that it is the presence of fluoridated water in the mouth that contributes to fluoride in the saliva and thus to remineralisation. Perhaps also the mechanism section could note that fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash are simply more concentrated methods of delivering fluoride to the mouth. I read with interest in the Sheiham 2001 article that brushing with non-fluoride toothpaste has no effect on dental caries.
If the positive effects of fluoride occur due to what you put and hold in your mouth, and only once teeth have erupted, then the negative effects of fluoride seem to be due to what you swallow, and only up to the age of about eight (ignoring toxic doses). So I think the third paragraph in Mechanism is a bit confusing as it mainly concerns the ingestion of fluoride. I note that your source only indicates that drinking water is "typically" the most important source of fluoride: the article text and the two sources seem to indicate that in low-fluoride-water-areas, ingested toothpaste "may" result in higher fluoride consumption that from the water.
Should the Mechanism discuss the mechanism behind fluorosis, or just stick to the mechanism behind the desired effects? If the the later, then perhaps the body-intake stuff should be moved to the Safety section, and keep this section totally topical. Colin°Talk 12:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Could we find a source that directly states..." I attempted that, citing Tinanoff 2009 rather than Oganessian et al. 2007. I couldn't offhand find a source making the "more concentrated" point, though obviously it's true.
  • "I read with interest in the Sheiham 2001 article that brushing with non-fluoride toothpaste has no effect on dental caries." Good point; I added that.
  • "the third paragraph in Mechanism is a bit confusing as it mainly concerns the ingestion of fluoride ... 'typically' ... 'may'" Thanks; I tried to fix that.
  • "Should the Mechanism discuss the mechanism behind fluorosis" Yes, I thnk so, and the change cited in the previous bullet also attempts to do that.
Thanks for the comments; they're helping to improve the article. Eubulides (talk) 09:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment about alternatives. This section is a bit of a jumble; the lead sentence is particularly hard to parse. Covering the mix of theoretical and unproven methods before covering the proven standard methods (in detail) is a mistake IMO. How about abandoning the lead paragraph and have the following paragraphs: 1. Fluoride toothpaste - head and shoulders the most important and effective alternative. 2. Other community programmes(salt, milk, healthy-eating, etc) 3. Other personal methods (mouthwash, sealants, chewing gum etc). 4. Theoretical, research and unproven ideas. Colin°Talk 20:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the suggestion. I installed a change that did much of what you suggest. It puts the unproven stuff after the proven stuff. It turns out that "healthy-eating" doesn't work, by the way; I guess nobody follows the regimen. (Our summary of Kumar 2008, PMID 18694870, briefly discusses this.) However, I left the sealants first, as they're the most effective; put the fluoride mouthwash next to the other fluoride treatments; and put chewing gum later. Eubulides (talk) 09:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on cost. The numbers here are all relative, with the aim of showing it is cost-effective. But since they are small, they are perhaps hard for the reader to appreciate the total cost of tooth decay. Your Sheiham 2001 paper claims "Dental diseases, particularly dental caries, are the most expensive part of the body to treat. Caries is indeed the most expensive human disease in terms of direct costs. For example, the direct costs of caries treatment in Germany was 20.2 billion, CVD 15.4 billion DM, diabetes 2.3 billion DM" (citing an 1993 paper). It would be nice to have up-to-date figures for the direct cost of caries -- to give the reader the idea of the big pot of money that is worth reducing, even by a small amount. The "Caries is the most expensive human disease in terms of direct costs.", if justified, is certainly eye catching enough to appear in the lead. Colin°Talk 20:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I've finished re-reading this and it is excellent. Per previous FAC: readable, comprehensive and sticks closely to high quality sources. A good set of appropriate pics too. Colin°Talk 12:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Support Shortly after this article was not promoted, I said that I'd wished I'd voted support. It is much better than probably most featured articles, and Eubulides has done a pretty good job of presenting both sides, although it's taken some nudging. He also has a tendency to repeat things word for word if they've been "published", particularly in a "review", regardless of the supporting data presented. I was reading the lead and I looked closer at the statement in the lead: "Almost all major public health and dental organizations support water fluoridation, or consider it safe", sourced to Armfield 2007. Armfield cites the American Dental Association's Fluoridation Facts 2005 to support this statement. The ADA's statement on this can be found on page 6, with a further list on page 69. These organizations are almost exclusively Anglo, with the exception of the Anglo-dominated World Health Organization. European and Asian safety organizations are not mentioned. And their absence makes it "almost"? It's not surprising that countries which practice fluoridation officially support it. But what do the academics say? In fact, the most in-depth review of the topic, the York review (which served as the basis for the later more surface-level NHMRC review of reviews) concluded that research on adverse effects was mostly of low-quality, which is in the lead. Anyway, the ADA's statement, channeled through Armfield, seems dubious, especially given letters which fluoridation opponents have received from European and Asian organizations [43], which indicate that they're more in agreement with York that the safety hasn't been conclusively established. Armfield's statement on health organizations is not as dubious as some of Armfield's other statements, like the one which directly precedes his public health org. statement: "Statements regarding the scientific controversy surrounding water fluoridation are generally regarded as artefacts of antifluoridationist activity, with actual scientific debate over water fluoridation being resolved decades ago", sourced, if you can believe it, to a 1978 Consumer Reports article. Fortunately, that's not in the article. Armfield's statement contrasts interestingly with a statement from one of the most prominent toxicologists alive today, John W. Doull, who chaired the 2006 NRC report on high natural fluoride. Doull told a Sci. American journalist [44]: "when we looked at the studies that have been done, we found that many of these questions are unsettled and we have much less information than we should, considering how long this [fluoridation] has been going on. I think that's why fluoridation is still being challenged so many years after it began. In the face of ignorance, controversy is rampant". There's also the interesting statement from Burt & Tomar that fluoridation is more justified in the U.S. than Europe because of socioeconomics; unlike Armfield and the ADA's statements, this bold statement is entirely unsupported by any citations or data. However, because it's in a "review", it apparently passes muster to be included in the lead. I'll admit it's plausible. II | (t - c) 06:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for bringing up Armfield's hyperbole; I reworded the article to remove it, citing Pizzo et al. (a more skeptical source) instead. Burt & Tomar's statement about socioeconomics is indeed plausible; also, Burt and Tomar are recognized experts in the field and we have no reliable sources disputing their statement. If any other points need clearing up to get your support this time around, please let me know. Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Using Armfield 2007 to support the "opposition to it has been based on ethical, legal, safety, and efficacy grounds" clause seems a bit inflammatory and unfair, but I suppose it's balanced by the Cheng et al's BMJ article. II | (t - c) 21:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
II's comments seem verging on WP:SYNTH there. I'd have a minor gripe about U.S. bias in the article, , but the pros and cons of fluoridation are presented admirably. Physchim62 (talk) 20:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removing obviously implausible and poorly-supported statements is just an exercise of good editorial judgment. II | (t - c) 21:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. No issues. Jappalang (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [45].

Ngo Dinh Diem presidential visit to Australia

Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Article about the first president of South Vietnam visiting Australia in 1957. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments Nice article. I always enjoy reading your submissions, as this area of the world was oft-neglected in the history classes I had. Not far from supporting, but a few fixes are needed:
    • "Like his American trip ..." Something about this phrase doesn't sit right. Consider "As with his American trip", perhaps?
    • "This was helped by the fact that his elder brother ..." The ambiguous "this" needs clarification. "This effort was helped"?
    • "He refused to hold the national elections and asserted that Ho would rig the ballots in the north" I assume you're referring to Ho Chi Minh, but it bears repeating since we've not read the name in a while. This also raises a question that Western readers might have.. why is Ngo Dinh Diem referred to in short form as "Diem", but Ho Chi Minh referred to as "Ho"?
    • "Diem arrived in the capital Canberra on 2 September" I've lost track of the year by now, so please restate.
    • "where large crowds cheered the Diem’s arrival" Extra "the"?
    • "This occurred in the 1950s during the McCarthyism scares" Another ambiguous "this".
    • Tucker appears in the Notes but not References.
--Laser brain (talk) 21:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done as of one hour after this post YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

images Australia has quite liberal copyright laws, government copyright expires after 50 years, are there no official photos? Fasach Nua (talk) 20:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The liberal law only applies up to 1955 pictures expiring in 2005. Since the new FTA, it is the same rotten one like all the other countries, so 1957 pictures might have to wait another 50 years. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Great read and an interesting article. I really didn't find much to complain about, but just a few incredibly minor points:

  • You could link 17th parallel to 17th parallel north.
  • He had visited the US in May as well as other anti-communist countries in the Asia Pacific region such as Thailand and South Korea during the year. What time of the year did he visit the latter two countries?
  • Doc Evatt, the leader of the opposition Australian Labor Party chimed in, proclaiming that peace, stability and democracy had been achieved in South Vietnam. Maybe joined instead of chimed.
  • There's a minor overlink in the Media reception and support section to 1955 State of Vietnam referendum (the link is repeated from earlier). It's up to you, but the second link may not be needed.
Fixed the four preceding parts.
  • Surely support and praise for Diem wasn't unanimous. Were there any (attempted) protests from local Vietnamese people/Communist groups? It surprises me that he could be feted so universally.
I presume you mean Australia. At the time Vietnamese settlement in Australia was negligible and only South Vietnamese students were allowed or came to anti-communist countries like Australia, so they were sent by Diem and wouldn't oppose him (VN has never been democratic so non-dissent at the government is expected). So I changed it to SV students. I also changed it to mainstream media. I suppose that the newsletter of the Communist Party of Australia must have condemned him but less than 0.5% of people support the CPA so it is nn. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 07:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Once these problems are fixed/answered I'll be happy to support. Apterygial 04:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. My issues are dealt with. Like Laser brain, an area neglected in my history classes (considering I went to school in Australia that's odd), so good to read about it. Great article. Apterygial 10:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a minor question. I'm not sure if it is really relevant in this article, but I wondered a bit how other world leaders have been received in Australia after this - did the response approach that of Diem's visit, or was his special because it was essentially the first? Have other Vietnamese heads of state visited Australia? Karanacs (talk) 18:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added section on aftermath about Vietnam and Australa. In those days state visits were a big deal and lots of people came to tickertape parades for all of them, but with the social standards changing in 1960s, people were more willing to protest. When LBJ came there were a lot of people cheering and a few atni-war rioters etc as well. When GWB came in 2003 not many people showed much interest except protesters. When Hu Jintao came a few days later only some PRC people came along to wave flags frenetically YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks great to me. Karanacs (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, comprehensive and well referenced.--Grahame (talk) 02:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "one of the highest imperial honours that can be bestowed on a non-British subject"—most readers (even Australians) won't get the gist, that Australians are themselves British subjects. Is it still the case, or does it need past tense?
  • "overlooking his authoritarianism, election fraud and corruption"—category issue: election fraud is corruption. ("and other aspects/signs of his corruption").
  • Clarify: "Diem had pursued policies in Vietnam favoring his co-religionists." ... "Diem's visit was a highmark in Australia–Vietnam relations."
  • "Over time, Diem became unpopular with his foreign allies, who began to notice his autocratic style and religious bias." How can we tell that they simply "began to notice" rather than "who had not responded to his autocratic ...". Safer NPOV?
  • Over time ... over time.
  • "By the time of his assassination, he had little support in Vietnam."
  • "after winning office, but after the Liberals were returned to power"—after after ("but on the return of the centre-right Liberal-National coalition to power in 1975,").

I hope the rest is better. It probably is, so perhaps just a run through by someone else? Tony (talk) 15:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [46].

USS West Bridge (ID-2888)

Nominator(s): Bellhalla (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This is an article about a United States Navy cargo ship built during World War I that was torpedoed on its first voyage across the Atlantic in August 1918. The ship survived the attack (barely) and continued sailing until the mid 1960s. The article has passed a GA review and a Military History A-Class review. I offer my thanks in advance to those who take the time to review and comment on this nomination. — Bellhalla (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - File:USS West Bridge (ID-2888).jpg isn't a work of the US Government; it was taken by the ship's builder, J.F. Duthie & Company. Therefore, {{PD-USGov-Military-Navy}} doesn't apply. Is there any evidence the photo is in the public domain (i.e., published before 1923)? I believe (though may not be correct so a second opinion may be warranted) that copyright for "works for hire", under which this should fall, lasts for either 95 years from publication or, if unpublished, 125 years from the date of creation, whichever happens first. Since the photo was taken in 1918, the 125-year limit would be 2043. So unless proof can be found that this image is in the public domain, it needs to go. The other two photos look fine though. Parsecboy (talk) 02:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I will agree that it should not have been tagged with {{PD-USGov-Military-Navy}} since it seems to clearly not have been taken by the Navy. I'm not sure I buy the "work for hire" argument for this image, though. The caption on the image states, the photograph of the ship—built under government contract—was taken by "J.F. Duthie & Co., Seattle" on behalf of the "United States Shipping Board, E.F.C.". If it is a "work for hire", as you contend, the client would then be either the United States Shipping Board or its Emergency Fleet Corporation, both of which are units of the federal government, thus making the image in the public domain.
    • However, regardless of my lay-interpretation of the caption, the immediate source of this particular scan of the image is the Naval History & Heritage Command website (link) which states that the original came from the National Archives' Record Group 19-LCM. According the National Archives website, Record Goup 19-LCM is the series "Construction and Launching of Ships, compiled ca. 1930 - ca. 1955" (ARC ID: 512915), a part of Record Group 19: "Records of the Bureau of Ships, 1940 - 1966)" (ARC ID: 348). According to the website, the use restrictions for 19-LCM are listed as "unrestricted". (Can be verified by searching "512915" at http://research.archives.gov/search) — Bellhalla (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I guess that's fine then. I was just taking my understanding of the copyright laws and applying it to this photo. My reasoning was that since the photo was taken by an employee as J.F. Duthie & Co, as part of his or her official duties (i.e., his boss told him to take the picture), it qualifies as a "work for hire," and the business should legally retain the copyright, regardless of what they then did with the photo (except of course, if they released it to PD or it was published before 1923). Like I said, I'm no expert on copyright stuff, so I may be reading too much into this. Maybe it'd be best to leave it in for now until someone with more expertise can give us a better answer. Parsecboy (talk) 03:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • Some of the incomplete dates given make the article feel vague and make the chronology a bit difficult to follow. For example:
      1. In the last sentence of the Torpedo attack section - it should be made clear that "through 1 December" means 1 December 1919, given that the ship required seven months of repairs starting at the end of 1918. The lead is actually clearer on this than the main body of the article; giving the full date.
      2. The lead is again more informative as to the date of transfer of the ship to the USSR. The lead states May 1945 whereas the main article just says 1945.
    • The article is on a U.S. subject and uses U.S. sentence constructions but uses European day first date formatting.
    • Why are USMC, FESCO USSB and other abbreviations given in small caps? I can see that some of these are formatted using a template but there doesn't appear to be a requirement for this in the Manual of Style and it is inconsistent with other abbreviations - GRT, KW and DWT are not given in small caps.
      • An old American typesetting convention for small caps is to use them for acronyms or initialisms of four or more characters. You are right there is no requirement in the MOS for this, but, on the other hand, neither is there a prohibition. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You could link the NY Times article cited in ref 20 to this in the New Yorks archive.--DavidCane (talk) 01:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The reason the date is in dd/mm/yyyy is because the US military uses that format, so the articles about the US military follow suit. Parsecboy (talk) 01:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, concerns addressed. --Laser brain (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC) Oppose for now, under 1b and MoS concerns, mainly. Bellhalla, you've spoiled us in the past with rich details of design and construction (remembering SS Kroonland now); is there really no more available? Details:[reply]
    • "After the ship was decommissioned from the Navy, she was restored to the name SS West Bridge" I don't follow. How was she restored to a name she already had?
    • I'm at odds with the explanation above about the USSB/NOTS templates and small caps. It may be an old typesetting standard, but that is no reason to use it in an electronic medium. To make matters worse, you have other acronyms in the article that are in standard caps. Please, it's extremely ungainly.
      • Many other FAs I have written (including SS Kroonland you mentioned above) use the same style for acronyms or initialisms longer than three characters and it's never been an issue before. Too many capital letters in a row can dominate a line of text and unnecessarily draw attention to a word or phrase so styled; this is the underlying reason that typing in ALL CAPS on the Internet is considered to be shouting by most folks. As an extreme example of how all caps text can dominate a reader's attention, take a look at this extreme example. (Personally, I think a lot of what's in that example is overly jargony and not suited for a general-interest encyclopedia, but that's another issue.) — Bellhalla (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Design and construction section is oddly sparse. It's dominated by measurements and metric conversions that give it a clunky look and make me want to run away. Comprehensiveness is an issue. Where is the information about the design process? Why and how was it designed? Who designed it? How was it built? Very little information is here; the section might as well be named "Measurements".
      • I've reworked the section to provide some information on the ordering of the ship and tried to rearrange so as not to be jut a rehash of the infobox stats. I haven't found any sources that talk about how the design was developed; in my experience, those sorts of details are not usually preserved for cargo ships (as opposed to warships or large passenger vessels, like Kroonland). — Bellhalla (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 21:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Tony. — Bellhalla (talk) 21:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, there are a few more of them… :) — Bellhalla (talk) 21:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is a clear, concise, and well-written article. It's understandable to someone with limited nautical knowledge, and the citations appear to be accurate and appropriate. I had a few comments and questions, but none detracted from my understanding of the subject. Good work! JKBrooks85 (talk) 05:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there some kind of wikilink that would work for laid up? I know what it means, but it might be a bit of jargon for ESL speakers.
  • I personally don't think it's a big deal, but you might consider adding Croatia after Split in the lead. My FAC got dinged for not having country/province identifiers.
  • When was the WWI armament removed? I'd suggest adding the WWII Soviet-added armament to the general characteristics section.
  • Was any armament added by the USMC in WWII?
  • I turned on links in that first conversion template for long tons, since I didn't know what that was.
  • I'm not sure if things should be linked once in the lede, then again in the main body (West Coast of the United States, etc.)
  • One of the torpedo hits was near the No. 3 hold ... how many holds did the ship have?
  • You mention the survivors of the torpedo attack "situated themselves about ..."; were they in lifeboats or just adrift?
  • I'd suggest a trans-wiki link to "founder" in reference to the piece about the Montanan's end.
  • I assume this is the case, but is there some kind of nautical style that doesn't require "the" before the name of a ship?
  • Should convoy names be hyphenated? The WWI has a hyphen, but the WWII one was not.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [47].

Robert Hues

Nominator(s): — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This article was previously nominated but not promoted because insufficient editors reviewed the article. All the concerns raised by editors who provided suggestions have been addressed. I am therefore renominating the article in the hope that it will receive more reviews this time. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question, seeing as this is a biographical article, why is the main picture the title page of one of the subjects works, and not a picture of the person itself?--Otterathome (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: No portrait has been located yet, and since this is a 16th-century personage it seems rather unlikely that one will turn up. Perhaps there is a likeness in Christ Church Cathedral or in some other church? — JackLee, 18:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review (see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Robert Hues/archive1). There are no new images at this time. Awadewit (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It would be great if someone in Oxford could take a photograph of Hues' memorial brass in Christ Church Cathedral. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I am leaning towards support, but I have some questions first:

  • An anonymous 17th-century manuscript states that Hues circumnavigated the world with Cavendish between 1586 and 1588 "purposely for taking the true Latitude of places" - This is actually sourced to the manuscript - is this OR? Has anyone published this connection before?
  • he may have been the "NH" who wrote a brief account of the voyage that was published by Hakluyt in his 1589 work The Principall Navigations, Voiages, and Discoveries of the English Nation - This is sourced to the 1589 work itself - is this OR? Has anyone published this connection before?
  • Why were the sources listed in the "Further reading" not used for the article?
    • Comment: Because I thought the existing references were sufficient. — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm asking since there are so few used - do the "Further reading" sources have more information? Awadewit (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not sure. I came across them while reading the references that were used in the article, and thought they would be useful if listed in the "Further reading" section. I'd have to look them up (if they are available where I live). — JackLee, 04:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Since there are so few sources used in the article, it seems like looking them up would be a good idea. Will you have a chance in the next week or so? Awadewit (talk) 01:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've checked the items in the "Further reading" list. Here in Singapore, I only have access to four of them: Notes and Queries, Renaissance Quarterly, Transactions of the Royal Historical Society and Atomism in England from Hariot to Newton. Notes and Queries is not useful for incorporating into the article, but Renaissance Quarterly (which I accessed through JSTOR) is, and I've already done so. I will have to access the other two in print. Other editors with access to the remaining items will have to help determine if they contain useful information. I hope this is not a deal-breaker. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for so carefully assembling this article! The details in the footnotes were exceptional. I really appreciated those. Awadewit (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome, and thanks for taking the time to review the article. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am now supporting this article. Awadewit (talk) 12:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - engaging, well-written and particularly well-researched, in my view this important contribution satisfies the criteria. Graham Colm Talk 12:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning support, my comments:
    • The first paragraph of the lead doesn't feel... leadish, more like a laundry list of movements of the subject. There's a lot of repetitious structure (Hues did this, Hues did that) that might be contributing to it. As it stands, it doesn't make me want to read on. Try changing the syntax and slimming down to just the highlights.
    • "During the voyage, while in the South Atlantic Hues made astronomical observations, and also observed the variation of the compass there and at the Equator. " Not sure if that's grammatically incorrect, but I'll be damned if it isn't awkward-sounding.
    • Reading on there's a continuing appearance of some rather strange wording, such as "At the age of 18 years, in 1571, he entered"... generally it would be better to preface with the date, i.e. "In 1571, at the age of 18 years..." Another example, "Following Grey's death, in 1616".
    • "At Oxford, a servitor was an undergraduate student who worked as a servant for fellows of the University in exchange for free accommodation and some meals, and exemption from paying fees for lectures." This comes off as extraneous that breaks the nice flow you've got. It's certainly interesting info that's germane, but it's not really proper inline; perhaps consider making an annotations section for content like this?
    • "Hues returned to England with Davis in 1593. During the voyage, while in the South Atlantic he made astronomical observations of the Southern Cross and other stars of the Southern Hemisphere, and also observed the variation of the compass there and at the Equator.[14] After reaching home, Hues published his discoveries in the work..." More awkward placement. The "during the voyage" sentence should come before the mention of his return. Also, with the "unfortunately" and the death of Cavendish right before, it casts some doubt as to whether they actually completed the circumnavigation or not. Please clarify for us unknowledgeable folks. :)
    • "The book was written to explain the use of the terrestrial and celestial globes that had been made and published by Emery Molyneux in late 1592 or early 1593,[16] and apparently to encourage English sailors to use practical astronomical navigation,[2] although Lesley Cormack has observed that the fact the book was written in Latin suggests that it was aimed at scholarly readers on the Continent." scratch the "and" from "and apparently", makes it sound more joined, although the phrasing sounds like Molyneux published it to encourage the English, not Hues.
    • Some people or phrases that, in addition to their wikilink, should probably have some small explanation of what they are: rhumb lines, John Davis
    • "and were usually called the Earl of Northumberland's THREE MAGI" -> any reason for the small caps here, rather than quotes?
      • Comment: Thanks for taking time to review the article. Yes, the words were in small caps in the source. Am leaving for an overseas trip tomorrow – will try to look into some of your comments next week. — JackLee, 15:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Hues, who did not marry, died on 24 May 1632 in Stone House, St. Aldate's (opposite the Blue Boar in central Oxford),[35] which was the house of John Smith, M.A., the son of J. Smith, a cook at Christ Church.[14]" Could you cast aside some of these commas and make multiple straightforward sentences? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • "At Oxford, a servitor was an undergraduate student..." What do you think about perhaps moving this into a footnote that would appear right after "servitor"?
    • "He gave advice to the dramatist and poet..." Perhaps "He would later give advice..." or "He would apply his knowledge of Greek..." and then "George Chapman for his _insert year_ English" just to make the timeline a bit clearer.
    • "According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, there is unsubstantiated evidence" Well, ODNB articles list their sources, so this theory probably originated somewhere else, not the ODNB. :) Care to do a little more digging? (What evidence/why unsubstantiated?)
    • "an undated source " Could we be a bit more explicit here on what this means (either in text or as a footnote)?
    • "Unfortunately, Cavendish died " One of those words to avoid; in any case, deaths are always unfortunate. :) Perhaps be a bit clearer here instead ("Cavendish's death cut short the voyage" or similar...that is the case right?).
    • What's the reason for the format of "THREE MAGI"?
      • Comment: Thanks for taking time to review the article. The words were in small caps in the source. Am leaving for an overseas trip tomorrow – will try to look into some of your comments next week. — JackLee, 15:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "allied subjects " I'm unfamiliar with what this means.
    • I noticed that some of your sentences that are based on the ODNB article skirt a bit closely to the original wording. Please double check these and recast if necessary. This is probably the only thing that would prevent me from supporting.
    • I see now that I'm just echoing David on some of my points...great minds, etc., etc.? :)
    • Good work. BuddingJournalist 07:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and comments A nice article, just a couple of quibbles
    • In the lead, there are a couple of sentences where beginning with the date makes it a bit clunky. To me at least, Between 1586 and 1588, Hues travelled with Thomas Cavendish on a circumnavigation of the globe, reads better as Hues travelled with Thomas Cavendish on a circumnavigation of the globe between 1586 and 1588 I note that this contradicts an earlier comment
    • I also don’t like the list of printing dates in the lead.
    • There is some unnecessary linking, Does "£" really need a link, and I wouldn’t have linked Oxford either
    • I note your reason for the THREE MAGI capitalisation, but I'm not fully convinced that the original style should be kept

None of the above are big deals jimfbleak (talk) 06:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to review the article. I am currently in Beijing, and have realized it may be difficult for me to have regular Internet access, so I will look into all the above points when I return to Singapore by Saturday, 6 June. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 12:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [48].

U.S. Route 41 in Michigan

Nominator(s): Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I feel the last nomination's remaining issues have been corrected. The last nomination discussion closed with a single oppose factored over sources, including using two DOT press releases as sources. The section on the Interstate Bridge has been expanded with the newspaper clippings obtained as the last FAC was closed, removing the press release source. The other press release is still used as a source only to verify the date of transfer of the now former business loop in Marquette from state to city jurisdiction. The reference desk at the Peter White Public Library in Marquette was unable to find any articles in the Marquette Mining Journal that cover the transfer at the time it was completed, leaving the MDOT press release as the only acceptible source giving the date of transfer. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
    • I'm not at school anymore; otherwise I would help you out with this article. Apologies there...
    • "US 41 was an original US Highway first designated in 1926. It replaced the original M-15 designation of the highway, which ran from Menominee to Marquette, Houghton and ended in Copper Harbor."
      • Copyedit needed here. "was an original" -> "first designated" doesn't sound right, and should "from Menominee to Marquette, Houghton and ended in Copper Harbor" be "from Menominee through Marquette to Houghton and ending in Copper Harbor"?
    • "Realignments and construction projects have expanded the highway to four lanes in Delta and Marquette counties. These changes also created three business loops off the main highway."
      • Try "Realignments and construction projects have expanded the highway to four lanes in Delta and Marquette counties and have also created three business loops off the main highway."
    • "The 279.167-mile (449.276 km) highway comprises mostly two lanes, undivided except for the sections that are concurrent with US 2 near Escanaba and M-28 near Marquette."
      • Try "The 279.167-mile (449.276 km) highway is comprised of two lanes for much of its length; it is undivided except for sections that are concurrent with US 2 near Escanaba and M-28 near Marquette."
    • "US 41/M-28 is a four-lane expressway along the "Marquette Bypass", and segments of the highway in Delta and Marquette counties have four lanes.[5]"
      • What about the concurrent US 2 section?
    • "The highway meets the southern terminus of M-35 before following 10th Avenue north out of town east of the Menominee–Marinette Airport and west of the Bay of Green Bay.[7]"
      • Would "intersects" be preferable to "meets"?
    • "The highway meets the southern terminus of M-35 before following 10th Avenue north out of town east of the Menominee–Marinette Airport and west of the Bay of Green Bay.[7]"
      • Confusing to me. "North", "east", and "west" all in quick succession...
    • "The highway runs north through rolling farmland in the central Menominee County communities of Wallace, Stephenson, and the twin communities of Carney and Nadeau."
      • "rolling farmland"? What is that? Also, I may know what you mean by Carney and Nadeau being twin communities, but not many others will...is there something you could link that too?
    • "M-94 follows US 41 for approximately 2 miles (3 km) near Skandia, before it turns westward to provide access to K. I. Saywer, a former air force base. "
      • Does this means that M-94 runs to Sawyer and ends?
    • "US 41 turns north solo from Covington, crossing the Sturgeon River, on the way to the historic sawmill town of Alberta.[5]"
    • "Continuing north from Alberta, US 41 enters the town of L'Anse on the east side of Keweenaw Bay, rounding the bay to the town of Baraga." [...] "North of Hancock, US 41 passes the Houghton County Memorial Airport before reaching the towns of Calumet and Laurium."
      • L'Anse, Calumet and Laurium are villages, no? At the least, Calumet is—it might have been huge at one point in time (wasn't it considered as a possible place for the state capital once?), but it is now a very small place.
    • "The first highway designated along the path of the modern US 41 was M-15, in use as far back as 1919.[20]"
      • Try "The first highway designated along the path of the modern US 41 was M-15; the designation was used from 1919[20]–November 11, 1926, when the U.S. Highway System was announced.[2] This resulted in US 41's routing over the alignment of M-15.[21]"
    • "Around 1930, the northern terminus of US 41 was extended easterly from Copper Harbor to Fort Wilkins State Park.[22]"
      • Is "easterly" even a word...?
    • ""Menominee" in the local Menominee language means "wild rice"."
      • What in the world does this have to do with the paragraph it is in, let alone this article...?
      • Oh, got it now. Is there any way to combine the above with the preceding sentence to keep everything in one thought?
    • "MDOT has listed it as "one of Michigan's most important vehicular bridges"."
      • Why? Because of its engineering and architectural significance?
    • "Another abandoned bridge is now privately owned and in use at the mouth of the Backwater Creek on the Keweenaw Bay near L'Anse. The bridge was constructed in 1918 for $4,536 (equivalent to $64,912 in 2009).[34][62] It is an 80-foot (24 m) Warren truss design now situated on private property.[62] This abandoned bridge was listed on the National Register in 1999."
      • "privately owned" and "private property" seems redundant. Also, a ref for the last sentence?
    • "As of 2009, MDOT has not included the bridge on its inventory online."
      • Not liking the time aspect here.
    • "Signage for the Veterans Memorial Highway just west of the Ishpeming city line"
      • O_o "signage" is actually a word? I thought my Dad made it up :P
    • Hope these comments help. Cheers! —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 06:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Replies to Ed17:
    • I incorporated some of your copy editing suggestions, but not all of them. Some are personal preference/stylistic reasons, and either the existing text or your suggestions were equally appropriate, and I just preferred the current text.
    • "US 41/M-28 is a four-lane expressway along the "Marquette Bypass", and segments of the highway in Delta and Marquette counties have four lanes.[5]" — The concurrent US 2 section is in Delta County. The only reason M-28 is specifically mentioned in that sentence is that the specific section of US 41 mentioned as an expressway is US 41/M-28.
    • M-94 does run to K.I. Sawyer and ends at M-553 on the other side. I'm lost as to what you're questioning there.
    • Calumet, Laurium and L'Anse may hold the legal status as a village, but they are still towns in the generic sense. Mackinaw City is also a village, but Mackinac Island is legally a city.
    • Yes, "easterly" and "signage" are words.
    • Private property (as in land) and private ownership of a (highway) bridge aren't necessarily going to follow. MDOT or the county road commission could own the bridge even if a private landowner owns the surrounding property.
    • As for the time aspect of the "As of 2009, MDOT..." what would you suggest? The usage of the {{As of}} template will aid in updating the article, instead of just saying "currently"... I'm not sure what to suggest to change this situation since MDOT could always list the bridge in their inventory, but it is rather odd that they haven't yet.
    • Thanks for the suggestions. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Alright to all of those. I'll check back in a few more days and will probably support. As to the date: I had no idea that template existed, so never mind. Cheers, —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 18:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm not sure, it looks like references 60, 45, 46, 47 have extra "p"s (there are two when there should be one because the page is singular) and reference 9 uses "Page" when "p." should be used for consistency with the rest of the article. I didn't fix these because I'm not sure about them, but it would be appreciated if you could take a look. Mm40 (talk) 10:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
    • 1.1 - The highway meets the southern terminus of M-35 before following 10th Avenue north out of town between the Menominee–Marinette Airport and the Bay of Green Bay.[7] The highway runs north through rolling farmland in the central Menominee County communities of Wallace, Stephenson, and the twin communities of Carney and Nadeau. - change
    • At Powers, US 41 joins with US 2. - a bit choppy
    • 1.3 - US 41 enters Houghton along Townsend Drive on the campus of MTU then passes along College Avenue into downtown. - seems like a run-on.
    • Sheldon Ave - expand.
    • The road way continues east -> The roadway continues east
    • Section 3 has a sentence with 5 citations in a row. Is there any way to break it up?
    • 3.1 - In the last paragraph, some of the sentences are a bit choppy.
    • Same for the first paragraph of 3.2.
    • These sculptures were added in addition to the other decorative elements added to the new bridge including the railings and light poles. .[47] - looks like an extra space?
    • I'm guessing that this is the case, but... are there no mileposts for some items in the junction table?

This article is well-written and comprehensive; just a few changes are needed before I can support it. --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made some copy edits. The five citations in a row may look out of place, but the source used only has the NRHP sites listed by county, and the entire sentence references places in 5 counties. The only source I have for mileposting information is the Control Section/Physical Reference Atlas, which does not have control points at all of the junctions listed. I hope this clears up things for you, let me know if you have any further suggestions. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:53, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • "historic character by various organizations." I think "significance" would be a better word than "character".
  • "the bridge continues to carry traffic today although" Redundant through use of present tense.
  • "Today, drivers cannot use the " Another unnecessary usage of "[t]oday." Audit througout for this dated word.
  • "Sheridan Road was created in the early 20th century connecting Chicago with Fort Sheridan north of the city." "early 20th"-->early-20th; I think a semicolon is needed to improve the flow: "Sheridan Road was created in the early-20th century; it connected [connects?] Chicago with Fort Sheridan north of the city."
  • "Historically, there have been three business loops for US 41. "
  • "locally-controlled roadway" -ly adverbs don't need hyphens. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Replies to Dabomb87

  • I've made some copy edits to remove the word "today" from the text.
  • A semicolon would be wrong in that context as semicolons are used in place of conjunctions. I don't think a comma is even appropriate there, but I"m not sure.
  • As for the hyphen suggestions, I respectfully disagree. In the first example, early modifies the term "20th century" but "20th century" is an object, not a compound adjective. In the second example, "locally" and "controlled" should be hyphenated. "Locally-controlled" is one concept that is modifying the word "roadway". Without the word "locally", the word "controlled" takes on a totally different meaning in regards to a roadway.
    • May I intercede here? MoS recommends no hyphen after "-ly" adverbs, since the role of the item in qualifying an upcoming verb is crystal clear. It is a generally accepted rule. Tony (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the suggestions. I've implemented the ones that make sense in the article. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, 1a and 1c. It's not a bad start, but lots of work is needed. The prose is rough in places, as delineated below, and more. The History section is woefully researched—most of it is sourced to maps, which only provide a aesthetic history. Some time is needed in a library to sift through local and regional newspapers to discover the stories and issues that surrounded the highway's history.
    • Is any information available on Priscilla Press? They don't appear to even have a web site. How do we know it's not a vanity publisher? I have doubts about the suitability of Barnett as a reliable source.
    • You define and use "UP" once in the lead and once more in the body, but use "Upper Peninsula" everywhere else. Suggest getting rid of the overly-colloquial former.
    • "US 41 serves as a major conduit for Michigan traffic" What is the definition of "major conduit"? Most often used? Heavily used?
    • "Most of the highway is listed on the National Highway System." Why not all? The mention later goes into no more detail and is of no help.
    • "The highway is known for a number of historic bridges including a lift bridge, the northernmost bridge in the state and a bridge called "one of Michigan's most important vehicular bridges" by the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT)." Serial comma?
    • "Trunkline" is jargon.. wikilink or explain.
    • "The current bridge was last used for railroad traffic in the summer of 1982, when the Soo Line rail lines in Houghton and northward were abandoned starting in 1976." I don't follow how it was used for railroad traffic in 1982 when the lines were abandoned in 1976.
    • No need to specify acronyms you never use again (WisDOT).
    • "This reconstruction was completed ahead of schedule, with the span reopening on November 22, 2005." Revise to eliminate the noun plus -ing construction and "with" connector.
    • "These sculptures were added in addition to the other decorative elements added to the new bridge including the railings and light poles." Revise to get rid of some of the "added ... addition ... added"
    • "Five other bridges are listed on the NRHP and the Michigan SRHS addition to any inclusion on the MDOT Historic Bridge Inventory." I couldn't follow this. Addition to any inclusion?
    • "As of 2009[update], MDOT has not included the bridge on its inventory online." What is the significance of this statement?
    • "The bridge has remained in service since construction essentially unaltered." Oddly phrased, suggests the "construction" essentially unaltered... something.
    • "... and only the Jacobetti and Veterans memorial highways still have signage posted on the side of the road." Without the context you will doubtless provide later, this means nothing to the read. There are other problems with this sentence. "Memorial Highways" should surely be capitalized since it is part of the title; "at the side of the road"?
    • Fix ellipses in quotations per WP:ELLIPSES.
    • "MDOT unveiled plans on March 31, 2009, to rebuild" What is the comma doing?
    • "roundabout retaining the current right-turn lanes from the current intersection layout." Spot the redundant word.
    • "MDOT has stated that many of the concerns expressed are due to misconceptions of the design and will not come to pass." The concerns won't come to pass? They already have. Or do you mean that the perceived problems won't come to pass?
    • "Historically, there have been three business loops for US 41." This is redundant. If you use the past tense, you don't need to say "historically". I see another reviewer has already brought this up.
--Laser brain (talk) 17:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, I gave the article a copy edit per your suggestions, but I have a few comments.
    • LeRoy Barnett, PhD is the retired Head of Reference for the Michigan State Archives according to the jacket of the book. The forward to his book was written by Gloria Jeff, then director of MDOT, and signed as "Gloria Jeff, Director, Michigan Department of Transportation". The book also credits Michigan History magazine, the Michigan Bureau of History, the Grand Rapids Public Library, the Newberry Library, Wayne State University, the Burton Historical Collections, MDOT, "various county road commissions", the State Archives, the MDOT Photo Lab and the LIbrary of Michigan as sources. According to [49] the company has published other Michigan historical books, and the Michigan Department of History, Arts and Libraries recommends another of their books at [50] as further reading on the history of Michigan.
    • There is no source given as to why MDOT didn't list all of the highway on the NHS, just that only part of it was.
    • State-maintained highways in Michigan are legally called "state trunkline highways". The first usage of the term in the lead is already wikilnked to the article on the system.
    • I didn't capitalize "memorial highways" in that sentence for the same reason I don't capitalize "counties" at the end of a list of county names:. ie. Marquette and Baraga counties vs. Marquette County. Likewise Jacobetti and Veterans memorial highways vs. Jacobetti Memorial Highway.
    • The oppose is stated as under criteria 1a and 1c, and I would like some clarification. I can understand if you don't like my writing style; you've opposed over that before on a different article. The solution is for us to partner to polish prose collaboratively. You've stated an opposition to the quality of the research, but not the comprehensiveness of the article (criterion 1b). The article covers the major high points of the history of the roadway: the historic bridges built to carry it, the memorial designations applied to it and the physical changes made to the pavement. There are other changes made to the highway, which are mostly minor realignments to straighten curves in the routing. These minor changes were left out, even though they too could be added and documented on the maps of the time. The changes given are easily referenced to the various maps I own. What would be gained by researching old newspapers except to change the source of the information from a map to a news story? As I stated in the renomination above, the final transfer of the business loop through Marquette from state to city jurisdiction didn't even warrant a news story, meaning the best source for the date of the change remains an MDOT press release. The previous FAC discussion approved of the use of maps from the agency that owns the road as one of the best sources to document the changes made to the road.
Any further comments are appreciated. Please feel free to copy edit the article directly at any time. Another option would be to contact me on my talk page to collaborate on any copy editing. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, an additional comment in explanation. Today I was informed of a "Memorandum of Understanding" from May 13, 2009 which extended M-30 south 4.83 miles along Meridian Road in Midland County. Legally, this section of road is now a state highway, and the transfer wasn't covered in any news source according to Google. This means until MDOT updates the map or posts signage in the field which can be photographed, only the MOU is a source for the transfer, no news stories, no articles, nothing. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for responding. I actually listed all the prose problems I found, so there should be no need for me to edit the article or make additional suggestions unless future edits degrade the article. Your writing style is fine, but not perfect, nor is any of ours. As to my 1c objection, I feel I was clear about what I am looking for. I don't have a problem with your using maps for the aesthetic history of the road. However, there are always other news stories about budget, politics, historic events, etc. You will need to spend some time with a library database that indexes newspapers, or in a library that keeps physical or electronic archives of newspapers. Just for a relevant comparison, Zilwaukee Bridge could have a History section sourced to maps, but it would be boring and covering only aesthetics. However, if you dig into the Saginaw News and other area papers, you'll find tons of great stories about the construction and history of the bridge, the controversies, how we all thought it was going to sink into the river, etc. --Laser brain (talk) 00:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. The construction of a major bridge always gets a significant amount of coverage in the media. Realignments of highway rarely do, unless it involves a freeway bypass of a community, and even in that case it is hit-or-miss. As an addendum, it's much easier to research a static structure situated in one location than it is to research a 270-plus mile highway that has a routing that can change and has changed many times. Once a bridge is completed, there's not much more to say about it. However, even after a road is completed (or initially assigned would probably be the equivalent here), its routing can and does change often, especially one this long. – TMF 01:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not talking about the realignment. That has been mentioned here but I'm not focused on that issue, nor have I even mentioned it. I'm talking about the entire history of the road. The proper research must be done, and it won't be accomplished via Google searches. I'm inflexible on this matter. --Laser brain (talk) 01:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'm confused here. The history of the road is covered in the article. The realignments since the 1926 designation of the highway have been covered. The historic bridges built for the highway are covered, dating back to 1914 with the construction of Trunk Line Bridge No. 1. The Memorial Highway designations for the road are covered back to 1917. The previous designation for the roadway is covered. Ok, so the part that under a draft of the original highway plan M-15 would have been part of 3 US highways and not one isn't in there, but that's trivial. (Menominee to Powers would have been US 41, Powers to Rapid River would have been just US 2, Rapid River to Covington would have been US 102 and Covington to Copper Harbor would have been US 41.) I can't include the first highway centerline story, since that section of M-15 was used for M-28, not US 41 between Negaunee and Marquette. I have more resources than just Google at my disposal here, historical books from MDOT, old maps, etc. What sorts of things do you want added to the article? Give me some hypothetical examples so I have an idea what it is you want. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Right, as I acknowledged, you have covered the aesthetic history of the road. However, the research is necessary to find the human stories. Examples are decisions about routing, funding, conflicts and controversies, etc. Did two counties argue about where the road should go? Did a city lobby to have it go through without success? That kind of thing you will not find on maps and in MDOT reports. --Laser brain (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've just e-mailed the public libraries' reference desks for Menominee, Marquette, Escanaba, Grand Rapids, the Kent District Library and the Library of Michigan in Lansing. (I currently live in the Grand Rapids Metro area, not in the Marquette area that was home to me.) I would ask that if this research request is the only outstanding issue that the FAC be held open pending word back from the libraries in question. There's no guarantee that the newspapers of the time even covered the issues you describe, let alone that the issues even existed along any or all of the highway. I've already done database searches online through the KDL and turned up very little. What I have found is engineering studies from MDOT connected to construction projects, but no news coverage in the various databases. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I've been in contact with research librarians at the Grand Rapids Public Library's History and Special Collections section. They ironically have forwarded my research request to Dr. Barnett for assistance who has conveyed to me via e-mail that the article is well written as it stands. He's pointed me to the Marquette County Historical Society Library and the Copper Country Archives at Michigan Technological University for further investigation. The GRHSC librarian expressed that the request for the information wanted by LaserBrain has "stumped" the staff. Once again I maintain that the information that's being requested may not even exist as there is no guarantee that an 82 year old highway has had any controversies unlike a major bridge project with an unfortunate accident during construction. In total now, I have been in touch with librarians from four libraries that have yet to find anything remotely close to what's being requested. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would recommend that this be treated as an unactionable oppose. It seems that if the information just cannot be found, this FAC shouldn't be failed on the grounds that it does not have information that cannot be found. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Incidentally, I appreciate your explanation of the Barnett reference. I'm not sure you're right about the memorial highways thing, because you are still making it part of the proper noun. If I had been to Yankee Stadium and Shea Stadium, I wouldn't say, "I've been to Yankee and Shea stadiums" would I? I would capitalize Stadiums. --Laser brain (talk) 00:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • As discussed before on another forum, both "Yankee and Shea stadiums" as well as "Yankee and Shea Stadiums" (shouldn't that be stadia anyway?) would be correct. You wouldn't say ""Presidents Bush and Clinton", you'd say "presidents Bush and Clinton". I've kept consistent here since I used "Marquette and Baraga counties" in the article, why switch conventions to "Jacobetti and Veterans Hemorial Highways" toward the end of the article? Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I discussed with an English-teacher friend of mine, we both could be right and we both could be wrong. Unlike the French Language, there is no academy that standardizes rules in the English Language. In the spirit of collaboration, I will change to your preferred usage in this sentence. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This article has the best prose and layout of any FA, GA or A-Class article I have ever seen. The article is complete, neat, well-organized and understandable; all references are in line and the works cited were cited as supposed to. –CG 17:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on an image issue:

The first concern is more crucial. Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 10:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for going MIA... in the OTRS thread, the copyright holder specified CC-by-SA but did not name a specific CbSA license version. I put down the default until I could get back to the FAC. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my mistake, I misread the thread and didn't see how the copyright holder had given permission for the implementation of the license. Imzadi, could you please change the license to what you want (assuming 3.0) and then leave a note explaining that deference was given to you by the copyright holder just so it's clear to non-OTRS people what went down? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I updated the licensing information in accordance with the OTRS ticket and noted that on the image's page. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The other image's OTRS thing has been squared away, I believe. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is it, no more image issues. Article is using photos that are verifiably in public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 22:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Support if Laser brain does. until the writing is fixed up throughout. Here are examples just from the lead!

  • "Along its 279.167-mile (449.276 km) route in the state, US 41 serves as a major conduit for Michigan traffic." Can we make it neater? "The 279 miles (449.276 km) of the US 41 that lie within Michigan serve as a major conduit." I don't think I've removed too much: where else would the conduit be, and for what else but traffic? Is the plural OK?
  • "Along the route, US 41 passes through farm fields, forest lands, and along the Lake Superior shoreline." Three words are redundant. And there are really two, not three items in this list (through ... and ..., and along ...).
  • Redundant "also" ("and" does the job perfectly well, but needs a preceding comma, since there are other ands in the vicinity).
  • Included ... include ... including. bridges ... bridge ... bridge ... bridge.
  • "called" -->"referred to as".
  • "Seven different memorial ..."—Do we need "different"? Another "including. (We can cope with, say, two in a para, but not four; what about "..., one of them named for ..."?
  • As much as I detest the dots, why are we free of these blessed fly spots (US, U.S.) half the time and not throughout, including the title? I think the WikiProject would object, actually, but make it consistent, please.
  • "US 41 was an original US Highway first designated in 1926."—Hard to comprehend; is an "original" highway of special status? In any case, it doesn't go well with "first".
  • Another idle "also". Please audit every "also" in the text; remove 95%. Tony (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've made some copy edits throughout the text of the article. As for the US/U.S. situation, I standardized on US. The article's title won't be changed since between the 49 DOTs that are responsible for maintaining sections of the United States Numbered Highway System, US #, U.S. # and US-# conventions are in place. The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials uses U.S. Route and U.S. Highway in their internal documentation for the full name of the highways in question, which is why the "fly spots" were in use the way they were previously. Feel free to follow up with further suggestions or make copy edits to the article yourself. Imzadi1979 (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments — in regards to requests by LaserBrain above for research into more historical information on the highway, I have been in contact with librarians from the Spies Public Library in Menominee, the Peter White Public Library in Marquette, the Grand Rapids Public Library, the Kent District Library and the Library of Michigan in Lansing. I'm awaiting replies yet from the Copper Country Archives at Michigan Technological University in Houghton and the Marquette County Historical Society's library. I have e-mailed the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (who are in charge of the US Highway numbers and routings). I've been in personal correspondence with LeRoy Barnett, author of one of the books cited in the article and retired head of reference with the State Archives. He's personally mailed me a copy of an article on the Military Road that he wrote that will allow me to add some 19th century history to the article for the section of the highway north of Houghton. With the exception of his article, nothing has been turned up that would satisfy LaserBrain's request. I submit that his oppose on criterion 1c is now unactionable because the article has been thoroughly researched, and what he desires does not exist. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I really appreciate your dedication to looking into the issue! I've stricken my 1c opposition above—I'm satisfied all that could be done to research the history has been done. As for the 1a, I'll have to evaluate the text again especially in light of Tony's recent opposition. --Laser brain (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I second that. It really sets a great standard for US highway articles, which have often been little more than travelogues; Route 41 does offer rich pickings for history and research. I've fixed a few things in the history section. See the BBC's recent doco series The_Ascent_of_Money#Ep._2:_Human_Bondage for a fascinating account of how the Rothschild family's sitting on the sidelines and the confederate government's reliance on "cotton" bonds were critical ingredients in the outcome of the Civil War, as well as the attitude of the British government. (There was no "United Kindgom" by name, then, was there?). That "formatprice/inflation/current year" template ... I'd be happier if it said "roughly equivalent to"; or better still, "~ $x in 2009", but I suppose the tilde is a no-no. And is it worth translating 2004 dollars into 2009?The cost and price structures were so different in those days. See the recent discussion concerning the creation of a new, similar template (can't find link). I do hope you continue to prepare nominations. "Seven bridges along the US 41 corridor have been recognized for their historic character by various organizations." Since you say precisely which organisations, why not "have been officially reconized." "Various" is such a non-word. 4 ft = 1 m? Rough guess, 1.3 m? Is that the convert template at work again!? "Now the middle section is left in an intermediate position for the warmer nine months of the year; in this position, so that vehicle traffic can use use the lower deck of the lift span and pleasure craft can pass under the bridge." "Now" is when? It will date. "As of ?". Tony (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will update some things later with your suggestions. (I'm just home on my lunch hour at the moment.) As for the UK vs. Great Britain mention, the Act of Union in 1801 merged Great Britain and Ireland to form the United Kingdom, so yes, during the American Civil War, it was the UK already. Either wording is really fine by me though. Thanks for the reviews. Hopefully LaserBrain comes back soon so we can start to wrap this nomination up. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional comments I dove into another random section (Business loops) and spotted more problems. I don't think it's far off at this point, but I'm not ready to support because I'm still seeing things.
    • "There have been three business loops for US 41. These included the loops in Ishpeming–Negaunee, Marquette and Baraga." Why "included" when you've named all three? Normally, "including/ed" is used when you are giving representatives of a long list: "I bought five flavors of ice cream, including your favorite, blue moon."
    • In the caption of the image there "The now former BUS US 41 along Washington Street in downtown Marquette" what is "now" doing? I see that in the accompanying prose as well. I know what you're trying to do with it, but does leaving it out really change the meaning? The "now" is implied.
    • "It was later designated as BUS US 41/BUS M-28" In earlier constructions of this sort, you don't use "as" (and correctly so).
    • "The proposed swap traded jurisdiction on the unsigned M-554 and the business route from the state to the city." This is confusing to me. First, the "swap traded" is ungainly. Second, it doesn't make sense because I don't see anything being "traded"; I just see jurisdiction being passed from the state to the city for two different roads.
    • Later, you call it a transfer which seems more apt.
--Laser brain (talk) 22:01, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I'm satisfied that Tony's and Laser brains comments along with Dank's copy-edit have pushed this to FA quality. Great job (to both reviewers and nominator), and I'm impressed with the research. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [51].

Landing at Nadzab

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because... One of the most imaginative operations of the Second World War in the Pacific, with parachuting and white-water rafting. Also, we have video... Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support

The geography section seems a little out of place at the beginning - I'd suggest moving it lower down and having the strategies section to start off with.
Done.
'By agreement among the Allied nations, in March 1942 the Pacific theatre was divided into the South West Pacific Area, with General Douglas MacArthur as Supreme Commander, and the Pacific Ocean Areas, under Admiral Chester W. Nimitz.' - Does this mean MacArthus was Surpeme Commander with Nimitz under him, or did Nimitz hold equal rank? That needs to be qualified.
MacArthur was senior in rank, but neither was subordinate to the other. The two commands were completely separate. Attempted to explain this.
What was 'Task One'?
A moving target. Added a few words to explain this.
'Blamey's operational concept was for a double envelopment of Lae, using "two of the finest divisions on the Allied side",[12] with Major General George Wootten's 9th Division landing east of Lae in a shore-to-shore operation, while Major General George Alan Vasey's 7th Division, in a reprise of the Battle of Buna-Gona in 1942 would approach from the west by an overland route' - This needs to be broken down into two sentences really, it's a tad long.
Done. Broken into three sentences.
If the 7th was to establish a blocking position, what was the 9th to do? This needs to be clarified more clearly.
Done. Added explanation.
'The plan called for the 7th Division to move in transports to Port Moresby and in coastal shipping to the mouth of the Lakekamu River' - Written like this it would seem to connect to the previous operation, so it should be clarified this is about the landing at Nadzab itself.
Done.
Why does the article concentrate more on the 7th than the 9th? I realize the 7th utilized the paratroopers, but some more details on the 9th's role during the planning stages would be good, even if just for completeness of the picture.
Because the 9th Division operation has an entire article of its own (which I haven't written yet) called the Landing at Lae.
'Colonel Kenneth H. Kinsler, the commander of the 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment' - Don't think you need the 503rd's full name here, as it was given two sentences prior.
Okay.
'Needless to say, Vasey was less than impressed' - That seems a little informal, perhaps just 'When informed of this, Vasey was less than impressed'?
Done.
How can the two weather forecasting teams know nothing about the weather (odd in the first place given their profession!) but then apparently be correct in their prediction that the weather would clear on the day of the jump?
A minor miracle really. Kenney wanted accurate forecasts days in advance but this was nearly impossible for the forecasters to do. Added some explanation. Of course it was much easier for Kenney, because he knew nothing about meteorology. Added explanation.
'Conditions were favourable, while the 85% humidity kept the screens effective for five minutes and stoped their dispersal for ten' - Just a slight spelling mistake.
Well spotted.
'Brigadier Eather came up in his jeep and started urging the diggers to hurry up' - By 'diggers' do you mean Australians?
Yes. Linked digger.
Did 25th Infantry Brigade receive any casualties from 9th division artillery?
Yes. Added text.

Otherwise, excellent work. Sort these out, and I think I'll support! Skinny87 (talk) 14:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image Review by NuclearWarfare

All issues resolved with images. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 01:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • The websites in the notes need publishers. (This includes the Lowe, Yoshikhara and Watson refs in the references...)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [52].

Macaroni Penguin

Nominator(s): Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets criteria. Oringally brought to GA status by LNG123, I copyedited and added facts and had Sasata help out with some more facts and copyediting to round it out. Have at it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oops, my bad. fixed now, derivation was under "macaroni" Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support William Avery (talk) 09:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
thanks! :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Pictures are way too damn cute. This is an obvious attempt to sway the reviewers. Will strike Oppose if Surgeon General warnings for hyper-cuteness are placed below all images. Ling.Nut (talk) 02:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No way man! I always found Macaronis weird looking when compared against the much more photogenic Southern Rockhopper Penguin...now that is cute. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image Review by NuclearWarfare - Two of the images are taken by a Wikipedian and published under a free license, and the other is a seemingly legitimate Creative Commons image from Flickr. Images are therefore good. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 04:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are poorly known, the successful ..." Here you can put a period (or full-stop, depending upon your persuasion), a semicolon or an endash, but a comma just won't do. I would have just fixed it, but there are stylistic options... Ling.Nut (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC) (semicoloned) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning Support. I don't expect anyone to find any hidden problems etc. If a big issue arises, please let me know. Otherwise +S. Ling.Nut (talk) 04:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Juliff, Peter (December 2008) appears to be an article from The Bird Observer – membership magazine of the Bird Observation & Conservation Australia (BOCA) organization. Not mentioned in cite. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Extra info added. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and comment COI - I did a superficial ce before this came to FAC, and I am a member of the bird project. Two minor points in refs to address jimfbleak (talk) 06:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • ref 44 has a different date style to the rest
    • some of the isbn numbers retain hyphens, some don't, need to be consistent
Goshdarn. I thought brigherorange's script woulda got them. ok... got the ref, though I do like that alternate form of accessdate which I hadn't seen before. Will have to hunt isbns - is there a place to find where the dashes go? Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:05, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unless you object stiongly, it's easiest to take out the hyphens that are there, rather than add new ones. jimfbleak (talk) 15:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 18 (Bernstein) is actually from Auk a journal. The section in the journal is Short Communications. Please fix to reflect its journal article status, not the website it's currently cited as. (sorry, fixed now (?)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the vague sentence it referenced - it is pretty obvious and I don't think it adds anything to the article really. I didn't put it in in the first place. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 29, (Bost..) are you citing the abstract or the actual article? If the article, it should be formatted as a journal article.
the article has not been published in print,only online, so I cannot find a volume and issue. Is this what you mean? doi is now only link Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
thanks :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support An excellent and very informative article! My only problem is that "with a minimum of 11,841,600 pairs of Macaroni Penguins worldwide." and "estimated at around 18 million individuals" contradict each other. Reywas92Talk 16:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
thanks - I was tempted to delete on but both were informative. One is a 1993 calculation, and the other 2004. There is also mention of a population fall. Hence the discrepancy. Shall I see if I can make it a little clearer? I was tempted to put "current" in but that is usually discouraged. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please do something. 23.6 million to 18 million is kind of a big difference - 25%. Maybe you can find further references with the most current numbers. Reywas92Talk 20:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [53].

Polish culture during World War II

Nominator(s): Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The article has undergone copyediting per last month request. For introduction and such, see the old nomination. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Very inconsistent formatting in references... A few are done with name-year notes that refer to books cited in the same format the "cite book" template generates (e.g., Madajczyk p.122... which refers to Madajczyk, Czesław. Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce, Tom II). However, a very large number are not. I suggest that you consistently follow the "cite book" format whenever you give the full reference information. The degree of inconsistency is so great that this is a deal-breaker for me; I will Oppose if it isn't cleared up in a few days. Ling.Nut (talk) 02:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - This'll do for a start:
The first one that jumps out is that massive list of Polish authors/writers etc near the top of the article; it doesn't seem to do anything useful in the article, and to be honest it just looks awful. Please cut it down to a few of the most notable or well-known authors etc.
Lead could do with an expansion given the size of the article overall.
There is absolutely no background to the Polish occupation - I'd expect to see at least a general paragraph covering the lead up, ie the invasion, division between Germany and the USSR, etc.
Staggering the pictures would also be a good idea.
It still needs a good copy-edit, mainly for language flow - whilst it's all gramatically correct as far as I can see, it's rather stilted in places.
Okay, that's the second huge, often red-linked, list of names I've seen - now it just looks like you're bulking the article up. Please trim them down to the most notable/important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skinny87 (talk • contribs)
A background section has been added. Various editor move the images as they like, all in the name of it looking good for the FA, and I have long ago given up on trying to interfere. I will expand the lead now, but I don't know what you mean by irrelevant lists of names. All names cited are referenced, are were mentioned by the authors as being relevant to the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I mean those names, many of which are redlinks, seem to be a blatant attempt to expand the article whilst adding nothing of value; the article wouldn't suffer if, at the very least, all of the redlinked names were removed. If not all the redlinks, then certainly narrowing down each list of names to two or three at the most. I take your point on the images. Skinny87 (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but one and a half sentences is not a sufficient background for the subject. Skinny87 (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What about the main templates directing the readers to the dedicated article? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It still needs to be expanded to a few paragraphs. Skinny87 (talk) 07:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is now a full paragraph. If there are areas you think should be covered more, please let me know what they are. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Interesting and comprehensive article, though prose could do with a polish, moving some "the"s around in the usual way. Near the end "Over the years, nearly three-quarters of the Polish people have emphasized the importance of World War II to the Polish national identity" does not seem precisely supported by the ref, and should be rephrased. The red-links seem inevitable in an article on such a subject; no doubt Piotrus will create articles for many in due course. All the images are on the right, which is discouraged, and Der Klabautermann and the Andrzej Wróblewski at the end face out of the page. These and maybe Chopin should be moved to the left. Johnbod (talk) 08:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Cites and refs not even within a mile of being standardized. pick a style and stick with it. Ling.Nut (talk) 11:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the reply. Please compare Raack to Sterling in the References section. Then also compare Raack to Moczydłowski in the Citations section. Different styles. Choose one style & stick with it, please. Ling.Nut (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning oppose the background section seems completely useless and could be merged into the next section; a ton of redlinks of people that don't really look like will be getting an article anytime soon; half of the references are in Polish although for such a notable topic I bet there are reliable refs in English. Nergaal (talk) 22:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • One reviewer objects because there was no background, the next because there is... I love FACs :) The main templates direct editors to the main articles, what more background is needed? I am asking seriously; I am perhaps to familiar with the subject to understand what more is needed in the form of the introduction. Yes, many refs are in Polish since majority of the scholarship on the subject is Polish, as I wrote earlier I am unfamiliar with the very existence of any English (or otherwise...) works on the subject covered that are not already cited. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try and knock out some of these red links by at least stubbing some of them (the names I recognize) with translations from Polish wiki. Since this is a "amongst them" list how about just including those with already existing articles and putting the full list in a footnote (so that future articles can be written on them)? Or would that be also too messy?radek (talk) 03:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, I don't think Nergaal objected because the background section was there, just that it wasn't detailed enough. As for the footnote idea for the long lists of authors etc, that's an excellent idea. Skinny87 (talk) 07:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Roger that; is the expanded background better now? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 115 (Krzysztof Stoliński) the first link deadlinks
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is a very well researched article on an important topic, and one of the better articles on Wikipedia. I am confident that any stylistic concerns will be satisfactorily resolved. Nihil novi (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
The article says nothing about German persecution of the Catholic Church in Poland. There were over 2000 priests killed there just for being Catholic priests and even more were sent to concentration camps. John Paul II was almost murdered for holding Mass at an outside altar where troops surrounded him and the congregation. The Catholic Church is a very large part of Polish culture that needs to be included in this article to meet comprehensive criteria of FA.
To be helpful, I offer you this source and quote from a respected non-Catholic historian:Owen Chadwick's A History of Christianity page 254-255 states: "When the Second World War began and the Germans conquered the Catholic country of Poland, the Nazis shot many Polish priests and a few bishops. Perhaps this was more because these clergy were leaders of the people than because they were ministers of religion. Yet the religious element was there, and many Poles were true martyrs: six bishops, 1926 priests, 580 monks, 289 nuns and many more went into concentration camps. Only Stalin committed a worse persecution of a Christian community. It would be known in history as the Martyrdom of Poland if it were not overshadowed by a worse crime. The Nazi onslaught, combined almost at the same time with Stalin's murders of church people, caused a revival of respect for religion in the West - for a decade or two. If these massacres happened when Europe started to repudiate Christianity, the answer must, at least in part, be to return to all that was best in the moral traditions of Christendom. An attack on human rights could be condemned only if human rights had a place in the scheme of the universe; that is, only if therer existed a religious apprehension of humanity and its place in the world." NancyHeise talk 17:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is an interesting point. I am aware of works on this subject (but thank you for the quote), but the current article didn't emphasize it (although note for example statistics like "During the war, Poland lost... 18% to 28% of its clergy"). I think you are right and German Nazi persecution of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland deserves a better mention; I'll shorty add a dedicated para. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Update: done. I will also add a note to the Soviet section on similar measures (source) when I am less tired :) Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is better now but I still think there should be some mention of the fact that a large number of priests, monks and nuns were sent to concentration camps as well as being exterminated. Some people think the concentration camps held just Jewish people when in reality, a large number of homosexuals, Christians and other "undesirables" were in the mix. Poland contributed a lot of those "undesirables" to German concentration camps. I see where your article talks about the extermination but not the deportation to these camps and I think at least a sentence or two should suffice. NancyHeise talk 20:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, to help here is a quote from John Vidmar's The Catholic Church Throughout the Ages page 329 quote: "Of 10,000 priests in Poland, 3700 were imprisoned, and 2700 were executed." The author provides a note after this sentence that states "Also in Poland, 1200 nuns were imprisoned, 3800 displaced, 350 executed." I don't expect you to include all the numbers of each group but your article does not make distinction between execution and imprisonment as these scholarly sources do. NancyHeise talk 20:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article already mentions that members of Polish intelligentsia have been sent to the concentration camps; I've added priests to the list of specific groups in the para preceeding the one that I've added. You are welcome to use the refs you've found to expand this para. I think that we need a place on Wikipedia that would include those numbers, you may want to take a look at Pope Pius XII and Poland, Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and Roman Catholic Church in Poland (we also need histry of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland). I am wondering if there is a good place in the article to at least link to the article on Pope Pius XII and Poland? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose due to abundant use of dubious sources e.g.:
  • sources published in Communist Poland, such as Madajczyk, 1970 (used to source numerous statements)
  • a pamphlet published by the Polish "Ministry of Information" in 1945 (used to source numerous statements)
  • no publishing date given for "Czocher, Anna, "Jawne polskie życie kulturalne w okupowanym Krakowie 1939–1945 w świetle wspomnień " (used to source numerous statements) (meanwhile added)
  • website article by Ewa Bukowska - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements)
  • website http://www.warsawuprising.com/timeline.htm - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements)
A FA (or any other article) should not rely on that kind of sources to back up "facts". Skäpperöd (talk) 08:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very, very interested in the response to this question. Have we evidence that the sources are not reliable/NPOV/high quality? Ling.Nut (talk) 09:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The listed websites may qualify as a WP:SPS, but not as a WP:RS in sensu stricto. The sources published during the Communist era should be treated along that line, too: The Communist regime in Poland was partially based on an anti-German agenda and ruled Poland in a totalitarian manner - no free press, no independent research, censorship etc pp. More complex related discussions concerning this kind of sources are here (general reliability discussion at RS/N), here (article-specific RfC), and here (TfD discussion). Consensus so far has not been reached, most editors argue to not discard those sources at sight, but to use them with great care eg for describing historiographic perspectives. WP:RS says scholary sources should be "published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses" - I do not think a Communist era book qualifies for that, neither does the 1945 source of the Polish "information" ministry. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No. The consensus on RS is and was that communist-era sources are generally reliable, but should be treated carefully, particularly if they touch upon an area of known bias. If in doubt whether a particular fact is reliable, this fact should be discussed, and if possible, sourced with non-communist era works. If a particular publication or an author is in doubt, critical reviews need to be presented before the book or an author are deemed unreliable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 08:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Skapperod, your crusade against Polish sources is getting tiresome. Reliability of sources from Polish communist times have been discussed ad nauseum, including at WP:RSN (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliability_of_sources_published_in_Communist_Poland), at Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Sources_published_during_the_Communist_era and at Template talk:Communist era sources (editors may also be interested in the ongoing tfd). In all of those discussions the consensus was against you. Polish sources are reliable, and as was explained to you several times, Madajczyk's is considered the most exhaustive review of Nazi's treatment of Polish society and culture, and is still widely cited by post-communist Polish historiography, and not only Polish: here's a list of ~50 English language books published after 1989 that cite him: [54].
Data has been added to Czocher ref. Bukowska was discussed before, and the publisher (London Branch of the Polish Home Army Ex-Servicemen Association) is reliable. Ditto for http://www.warsawuprising.com is run by the Project InPosterum. In any case, I don't think any controversial statements are being sourced from those works, anyway. If you think they are used as a source for some controversial material, let me know and I'll try to provide a better ref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "crusade against Polish sources". This is about how Communist-era sources are used, and I don't know why you think "consensus was against me". I encourage every reviewer to read through the links Piotrus and me gave above to get a picture of how editors want to treat these sources.
Maybe Piotrus can provide a link to the Bukowska discussion - if there is evidence that the site is not to be treated as a WP:SPS I will strike it from the list, too. If "Project imposterum" is a "reputable peer-reviewed source" this should be outlined in the ref and I strike it from the list, too.
Wikipedia has clear guidelines on what sources are reliable for. These should be met in every article, and it is unthinkable for me to have an article pass GA and FA review just because it's MOSsy while statements are referenced with sources that per wiki's core guidelines are not supposed to source these statements. If everything sourced to the Communist-era sources is unproblematic and widely recognized as an uncontroversial factum, then it should be no problem to find a source not published in a totalitarian regime. Same goes for the websites. I don't argue about the content itself, but about the way it is sourced. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would be convinient for some to eliminate all work of Polish historiography, yet this is not how we deal with it. I've written an extensive article on Soviet historiography, which is much more problematic then Polish, but even I wouldn't say that Soviet history sources should be discarded as a rule (and yes, consensus upon consensus of editors at RS/V and so on have stated the very same thing). If you have issues with content, we can look at it. Polish sources are reliable, unless proven otherwise (look at Talk:Mikhail Meltyukhov to see how one can disprove authors: hint - find reviews critical of their works or research in general). EOT, as far as I am concerned. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"eliminate all work of Polish historiography" - that is not what I said, as you well know. Careful use and attribution to works co-published by the Communist censors. That's what I am saying. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody will disagree with you on principle. But what does this have to do with this article? The works are properly attributed (cited), in most cases the authors are notable enough to have articles about them, further helping the user to learn about the source (ex. by reading Czesław Madajczyk bio). Are you saying that they have not been carefully used? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We must avoid broad-brush condemnations of scholarship, based on when it was published. A lot of excellent work was published in Poland before 1989, some of it by authors who began their careers well before World War II and who had little or no sympathy for communism. Some of this scholarship indeed contributed to the sociopolitical transformations that followed after 1989. Nihil novi (talk) 14:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Skapperod, this has been discussed on at least three occasions already. And each time the general consensus is that while in GENERAL Communist-era sources must be used with caution, Madajczyk in PARTICULAR is a reliable source. In addition to Piotrus' list of around 50 English language sources which cite him and use him and consider him reliable, here's a very incomplete list of links to academic peer reviewed works which also cite him, available online: [55], [56], [57], [58], [59], [60], [61], [62]. And that's just from a cursory examination. Additionally there's many many Polish post-1990 works which cite him as well. While I understand your concerns about Communist era sources in general, in this particular instance - Madajczyk - there is pretty overwhelming evidence that he should be considered reliable. So you should probably strike him from that list as well unless you're going to take the (anti-consensus) position that any Communist era source, even when considered reliable by Western academics, is always and everywhere unreliable.radek (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you have the statements sourced to Madajczyk cited in other works use those as supplement cite. The problem with the booksearch Piotrus performed is that the returned hits were mostly random and unrelated mentions of the name or date and not the actual cites you provided. The problem with the cites you provided is in turn that not the statements made in the article are cited. Madajczyk was a member of the ruling Communist party. In Madajczyk's favour it must be ammended that membership in the Communist party was semi-obligatory to everyone aiming at a successful career and does not necessarily mean that the member supported everything the Communists said and did. Yet no matter how decent a person was - and in favour of the scholars let's assume they were the most decent persons - there was no way of circumventing the censors' guidelines. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)Skäpperöd (talk) 05:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are obviously asking for something well and beyond the usual standard, and, as you well know, pretty much impossible. To take a work in a foreign language and then find the a corresponding sentence in a English language work would involve a prohibitive amount of time and effort. It is hard to avoid a suspicion that you are just trying to throw up insurmountable roadblocks here. The issue is Madajczyk as a source and whether or not he is considered a reliable source by a) Western academics and b) the consensus of Wikipedia editors as discussed on RS board and other places. The answer on both these counts is "Yes - reliable". I don't see why if Madajczyk is treated as a reliable source by numerous non-communist writers (as shown generally by Piotrus and in the specifically enumerated instances by me) Wikipedia should have a problem with him. This also seems like something along the lines of a POV fork - trying to restart a discussion on this topic after you've failed to get your way in the three previous discussions.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to Bukowska - website article by Ewa Bukowska - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements): Actually, the website is written by many or at least some historians and scholars, for example Prof. Garlinski, [63], Norman Davies, MRD Foot [64] (it's the Oxford Companion to WWII!) [65], Kondracki [66] ... and others, which you can/could've checked yourself. As to Bukowska herself (her bio's not up yet on the site) she is one of the Polish teachers that the article discusses and has certainly been published on the subject in academic work, for example, here: [67] or here: [68]. Additionally this is a bit of making a mountain out of a mole hill since out of the four times that Bukowska is used as a source in the article, three of those times are backed up by other, additional sources and I don't believe any of the statements are controversial.radek (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just because the website hosts articles of notable scholars does not mean that everything else the website hosts becomes automatically a reliable source other than per WP:SPS. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It takes a good bit of bad faith to reach such a conclusion. I could maybe see it if it was like one historian and a dozen unknown writers but here we have basically a star studded cast. I've also provided other information about Bukowska which further supports her reliability.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, website http://www.warsawuprising.com/timeline.htm - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements) - actually, the website, whose aim is to promote knowledge of the Uprising, was constructed with considerable input from notable historians and archivists: [69].radek (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While scholary input is mentioned in the "Thank you"-section, this input is not identifiable in the text, and from the very "Thank you"-section it is obvious that the articles are neither written by these scholars, nor a sole rewrite of their work. The website is to be used as a WP:SPS only. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many academic, reliable, sources that we cite in many FAs only have a general bibliography without the input of each individual work being readily identifiable in the text. This is no different as the acknowledgment is essentially a form of a bibliography.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And let's not forget my point, so far unanswered by Skäpperöd: are any of those sources used as a sole source for controversial/fringe/extreme claims? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

About Madajczyk and assesment of his work in modern western historiography:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#About_Madajczyk "It is with great sadness that we have learned of the death of Professor Czeslaw Madaiczyk, Chairman of the Polish Committee for the History of World War I and II, who died on 15 February 2008. Czeslaw Madajczyk was an eminent historian, whose scholarly work on 20th Century Polish and European History has been widely acknowledged and respected. His important studies on Nazi occupation of Europe after 1938, and in particular on Hitler’s rule of Poland have greatly enhanced our understanding of the often complicated and obscured processes of German occupation policies as well as of the differing experiences of ordinary peoples under Fascist dictatorship and oppression. These and some of his other books, notably on cultural life in Nazi occupied Europe, on the “Generalplan Ost” and other German war-time plans for Eastern Europe as well as on the Soviet massacre at Katyn, have become milestones of the historiography of the Second World War. He was a co-founder and for more than two decades also the first editor of the distinguished Polish quarterly “Dzieje Najnowsze” (Recent History). Between 1971 and 1983 Professor Madajczyk led the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Besides he was Vice-President of the Polish Committee of Historical Sciences (1971-1985) and later became one of the Vice-Presidents of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War (1980–1995). In these capacities Czeslaw Madajczyk was an ardent supporter of international scholarly cooperation and exchanges, even at times when relations between historians on both sides of the iron curtain were still threatened or questioned by political conditions and developments. The death of Czeslaw Madajczyk is a grave loss for the international community of World War II historians. Gerhard Hirschfeld President of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War" http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/cih2gm/

--Molobo (talk) 19:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. The article is comprehensive and quite sufficiently detailed; providing excellent background information for further research, but please keep in mind also that this is not a book and cannot be treated as such with further requests for covering everything. For example, the pivotal role of the Catholic Church in Poland is undeniable, but the church is not a “cultural” institution in the usual sense – it is a “religious” institution often with considerable holdings of historic art and archives. By the same token, I would suggest to please consider trimming the extensive list of obscure writers whose contribution to Polish culture is (and will always remain) negligible, such as the petty communist ideologues without sister articles in Wikipedia. Only the names of instrumental contributors to Polish culture can be justified by the limited size and scope of this 80 KB article, as per above. --Poeticbent talk 16:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking to the polish sources issue above, I don't see a problem with using those sources if they are supplemented with others. This article does that. I think the inclusion of some communist era Polish sources are evidence of the article's attempt at comprehensiveness. If these were the only sources used, I might think they were evidence of the article's bias but this is not the case. NancyHeise talk 17:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If each of these references was supplemented, I would not argue. But they are not. Eg, the first reference to Madajczyk (1970) is what is now citenote [7], which is used nine times. Of the nine statements sourced to [7], only two are backed up by another one. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look. NancyHeise talk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So? Is anything cited with those sources controversial? As I've explained above, Madajczyk is considered both reliable and an expert on the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
More comments from Nancy : This sentence "The policy of supporting propaganda cultural activities in Polish language clashed with the Russification policy which argued for phasing out the Polish language. While Polish language was removed from schools[67] and even Polish street signs disappeared,[76] the pro-Polish language policy was spurred before the bogus elections of 26 October 1939,[76] and then in late spring 1940, after Hitler's armies had defeated France and the Soviet Union was left alone facing the Third Reich, and Stalin concluded that Poles could be useful in a confrontation with the Nazis." is an example of the problem I have with the article's prose.
I think the article content is fascinating and I want to support it for FA but I can not because it needs a very thorough effort to correct the prose. Many sentences are missing words such as "the" and are a little bit too long. It sounds as if the article's creator speaks English as a second language and I am very impressed with the article. I only speak one language, English and have tried to learn both Spanish and French for many years with little results to show so bilingual people are an amazement to me. I will try to help go through the article to clean it up but it would be nice if someone could help me too. Thanks, NancyHeise talk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will give the article another go-over for copy editing - the sentence you cite is definitely clumsy. This can definitely be fixed.radek (talk) 22:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At this count, the article has been copyedited by ~10 native speakers. Any further help is of course welcome, but I would lie if I said that the copyediting process is very well designed. That said, I of course agree that English Wikipedia article should be written in best English prose. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, can you do something to break up the sentence I pointed out above? I don't want to touch it without going to the source and first reading what the scholar is trying to convey. I could not do this because the source is in Polish. The English supplementary source is listed on Google Books but the pages cited in the article are not part of the preview available on Google Books. The sentence should really be broken down into two or three separate sentences. NancyHeise talk 00:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do what I can.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral I regret that I can not support the article right now. In addition to prose, I agree with Skäpperöd that the article makes excessive use of Polish language sources. Use of these sources makes it difficult for someone like me to check content enough to make sure the article is free of plagiarism and accurately reflects the meaning expressed by the sources supporting the sentences. While many English language sources are used to compliment the Polish sources. There are large stretches of article content where no English language companion source exists to support the Polish language sources. If I were a more intelligent person who could speak Polish and English, like the article's nominator, I might be in a position to support. Perhaps there exists on Wikipedia a bilingual editor like this who could come examine the article and offer a more sound opinion. NancyHeise talk 18:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"agree with Skäpperöd that the article makes excessive use of Polish language sources" - seems like I have not made myself clear: I do not object Polish language sources. I object to the unconditional use of sources published during the the Communist era. And the websites which as WP:SPS do not qualify to back up anything other than statements about themselves. Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The use is quite conditional, but your critique is not. You have so far not criticized any part of the cited content, you just criticize the sources in general, again and again. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please take a look at the previous FAC, where I linked my lenghty explanation on the sources used. Short version: much of the relevant scholarship is available only in Polish, since (surprise!) Polish scholars are more interested in the issue then non-Polish ones. Please also note that so far three bilingual (English-Polish) editors have commented here (Radeksz, Nihil novi and Poeticbent), all of them supportive of this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that much scholarship on this subject is probably in Polish. I do not object to the use of Polish sources or communist era Polish sources. I was just pointing out that I am not qualified to cast a support vote because the sources are in a language I do not speak. I hope the FAC directors assistants will place proper weight on the votes of those bilingual editors. The article needs some polish on the prose before it can go FA however. NancyHeise talk 21:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you are qualified to vote - you don't have to research of all sources to vote, I don't recall seeing this in any FAC procedures :) Also, please note Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources (they are allowed). Btw, could you help with the prose polish? That's something that I cannot do myself. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Very few of the users of Wikipedia can read Polish, even the Polish readers would have great difficulty to obtain and verify the sources in this article. To improve the article English language sources that can be obtained in libraries and sold on the internet should support those out of print Polish sources now used. Keep them, but include English language sources also.--Woogie10w (talk) 00:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The following template may be useful in this case,
Vielen dank, Skapperod for pointing out the need to improve this article with verifiable sources--Woogie10w (talk) 13:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am pretty sure that Polish sources cover the discussed issues in more detail than English, hence per Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources they are acceptable. Of course, if you can verify various facts from Polish sources with English, by all means, please do so. As I've explained above, I was paying more attention to this article being comprehensive than I cared about what language sources I use. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My obvious intent is to forgo the nuclear option that would tag the article as tainted red propaganda, a precision guided strike with reliable English language sources is all that is needed.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you suggest some? Nihil novi (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Polish Society Under German Occupation by Jan Gross would provide the foundation, Madajczyk would fill in the fine point details--Woogie10w (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, here's a good English language source [70] it is published by this [71] publishing house that was founded by a Polish man whose specialty is publishing English translations of Polish and other foreign language books. I think it would be an improvement for the article to use more English language sources. It is a valuable article full of great information and you have done a tremendous job giving us this gift of Polish insight into your country's cultural trials in WWII. I would like to see this become FA but I can not support or do much with the prose if the sentences are cited to Polish sources. Can you spend a little bit of time to add English refs to the article and then give me a ping and I'll come help with prose? Please consider that English speaking news organizations and others often use Wikipedia for information but the information needs to be verifiable by them as well. If the article cites obscure Polish sources, it is doubtful that it would be a useful article to the population at large. NancyHeise talk 01:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can do. Are there any particular claims you'd like me to verify with English sources? Please note that Ling.Nut has removed all Google Book links, making the verification of anything much more difficut, I am now waiting for him to restore them before I'll start adding new refs. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I was holding off on an actual vote until a little bit of work to improve the article has been done. Now it has been copy edited a few more times by several different editors, a lot of the red links have been now created (about 25 or so), referencing style has been standardized and I hope the concern over the sources have been alleviated. No reason for this not to go ahead.radek (talk) 06:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [72].

Checkers speech

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 06:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets FA standards. It has passed GA, and had a peer review with only superficial problems found. I've added to the images by taking some myself, and I think it is ready to go.Wehwalt (talk) 06:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: I passed the article at GA. I also contributed to the peer review, where I noted various improvements and made a few more suggestions. This is a well-writen, even gripping account of Nixon's travails in the early 1950s, and how he overcame them with the help of a little dawg...What a pity we haven't got Nixon to kick around any more. Brianboulton (talk) 17:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for image concerns as follow:

Deleted from article. I just can't believe it is PD.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other images are verifiably in the public domain or licensed. It perked my curiosity that the article did not feature the namesake. No Checkers. Undoubtably it was because he died before Nixon entered office, hence no Presidential shots to feature the dog. Note that pre- and post-Presidential images in the Nixon library are copyrighted.[78][79] This Nixon Library image is copyrighted by the Associated Press.[80] I would think the spaniel deserves a show here, but alas, no free images for him. Jappalang (talk) 06:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ouch. That hurts. Well, I've changed the photos, and I think it is pretty clear the replacements are public domain. I have totally scrapped the first one, with the Checkers speech screencap, I don't really need it. Can you let people on Commons who may be in a better position than me to look into the Nixon shot? I've used it in other articles.
No, there is no Checkers, because this is about the speech, not the dog. It is why I took out the photo of Checkers' headstone, which is unquestionably PD. I have seen a couple of shots of Checkers, one with Nixon sort of hugging the dog, the other the Nixon family walking with Checkers on the beach, but I do not feel I can establish a fair use rationale, as this is not a biography, so to speak, of the dog.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I know fair use for Checkers cannot be reasonably estalished for this article (the main focus is on the speech). I am bringing up the Eisenhower-Nixon photo up for discussion at Commons:PD files as a preliminary step. Jappalang (talk) 07:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I really meant the Nixon in Congress one. The thing is, most of us are not image hawks. We rely in good faith on Commons, assuming they have their act together. I took two photos for this article, in Cleveland and Wheeling (both short detours from my route, no biggie), but I would be hard pressed to make up for the loss of a historic photograph.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll start working on a fair use rationale for the Wheeling photo, just in case. You might want to put a note on the Richard Nixon talk page or notify Happyme22, since the shot is also used in the Nixon article.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have enhanced the fair use rationale for the Wheeling photo, and I believe we have a fairly cast iron fair use for it now. The rest of the images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. No more image issues. Jappalang (talk) 00:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • The NYT said there was an ongoing criminal investigation? Do you have the actual NYT clippings? Can you get them? I want to see more details about this. Whether true or false, it is a very significant aspect.
  • Named refs could be used for: Morris 1990 pp. 776–78, p. 852, p. 775, p. 763. Ling.Nut (talk) 04:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have access through the NY Times archives. Basically, there was a statute that said that a federal employee can't accept outside compensation. The Gibson Dunn report said that a senator is not a Federal employee and also that Nixon's reimbursement was not outside compensation, and dug up an attorney general opinion from the Harding (!) Administration saying that members of congress can accept reimbursement for their expenses. But I can't forward or put online the actual pdfs. I'll check the refs and see if there are dups and make any necessary modifications.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No need to check the refs; I just did. ;-) So are you saying that the NYT was explicitly referring to the Gibson Dunn research as "a criminal investigation"? Or were they say there was anther investigation going on? Ling.Nut (talk) 05:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. No, the Gibson Dunn report was not issued until Sept 23, the day of the speech. That morning, the Times had reported the Justice Department was looking into the Fund issue based on former 18 USC 1914. That section, now codified here has since been modified to make it screamingly clear it doesn't apply to members of Congress or their staff. All this was quietly dropped, I assume, after the tidal wave of support for Nixon, since I can't find references talking about it after the 23rd.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So was the Justice Department in fact looking into it? Any other confirmation of this? And.. how formal or informal was this "looking into it"? And how formal or informal did the NYT article make it seem? Ling.Nut (talk) 05:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to say. Times relied on unnamed sources. They also reported, and I found this interesting but not quite worthy of inclusion in the article, that the Democrats may have known about the Fund as far back as July, and were hanging on to it for the right moment. However, since the source is unnamed and it's all a bit ex post facto, I decided not to include that. None of Nixon's biographers mention the criminal matter. So I'd say they were looking at it, but that didn't mean that there was any serious intent that it go anywhere. Besides, half of Congress had them, and the statute was very murky in its phrasing.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see that the image that Jappalang referred to is now up for deletion. I will remove it from the article pending the outcome.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the image would be OK as the article's only fair use image (if it turns out that it is not free). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, would I have to reupload it? The Wheeling event is an important event in this article, I'd really like to have that image.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I assume it could be uploaded on Wikipedia (not Commons) with a Fair Use rationale. If I recall correctly, an earlier version of the photo of the CCC worker statue in Leonard Harrison State Park started out on Commons, then had to be deleted there as the artwork is copyrighted, so we uploaded it to Wikipedia (to complicate matters, the current photo is a new version uploaded later and the old one was deleted as it was fair use only). Just to be very clear, I support the use of the Eisenhower-Nixon photo as fair use in this article. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I've restored it to the article for the time being, and we'll see what happens with the deletion. I've saved a copy on my computer too. I foresee a problem if I reupload it, will the fact it comes from the Eisenhower Library be sufficient as a source? After all, we have no idea who took it ...--Wehwalt (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think as long as there is a clear source for where you got it and they seem reputable, it is OK, even if the author of the image is unknown. See this image of Leonard Harrison, also from Leonard Harrison State Park. It was in when the article passed FAC - all we know is who it is and where we got it, not when it was taken or by whom. I also assume Jappalang will correct me if I make a mistake here (with thanks in advance), Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can I change the pd/commons rationale on the copy that is on Wikipedia to a fair use rationale, and will that copy then survive the (in my view, inevitable) deletion of this image at Commons? I don't see any way this is a pd image. There's no way there was a Federal employee at the Wheeling rally taking photos within the scope of his employment. No way.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have uploaded lots of Files here (on WP) for use in DYK that were also already on Commons. There is a warning when you upload them that the file is a duplicate (if the name is the same). Deletion of a file on Wikipedia or on Commons is only there, not both places. The descriptions are also independent (i.e. DYK files on WP have {{C-uploaded}} which is not a Commons template). If you want, I suppose the file name on WP could be different too (as long as it is a duplicate file, I think there will still be a notice). Commons can not host fair use images, but WP can. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 11:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I didn't upload it, I just undeleted it since it was previously a WP image before being moved to commons. I added an appropriate template and a hopefully appropriate fair use rationale. That should solve the problem, I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments It's pretty good, but I found stuff to do. Please check it over again for MoS issues relating to punctuation at the end of quotations, and for that pesky "with" connector (see example at the bottom below). Some issues:
    • "The Checkers speech was an early example of a politician using television to appeal directly to the electorate, but has often been mocked or denigrated." This seems to come from left field. In the robust lead, this sentence is the only suggestion that the speech was ill-received by anyone. The speech caused an outpouring of support, but it was mocked and denigrated?
      • I made it clear that most of the mocking has happened since the speech, which is mentioned in "Legacy". I didn't want to get into the ways, I considered it sufficient to mention it.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "As Smith wrote one potential contributor, the donated money was to be used for:" Odd. Wrote to the contributor? This is another left field fly because we've just read about Nixon's expense account and suddenly we're reading about Smith again. Suggest more context: "As Smith wrote to one potential contributor, money donated to the Fund was to be used for:"
    • Why in that blockquote is there a stray non-breaking space in the middle of one set of ellipses?
    • "Contributors were only drawn from Nixon's early supporters" Move the "only" further right to get the intended meaning.
    • "and an engraving bill was unpaid pending a hoped-for contribution of $500." What does this mean? They ran out of money and couldn't pay the bill?
    • "Warren failed in his attempt to gain the nomination, and his supporters were embittered by what they saw as political opportunism on the part of Nixon, both in accepting the vice-presidential nomination and (according to the Warren supporters), in working behind the scenes for Eisenhower's nomination despite his pledge to support Warren." I don't know, something is missing here. An "and" after the comma? Or was something cut off?
    • "The candidate had the train stopped, and responded that he had been told that if he continued on his political course, crooks and communists would smear him." I don't quite follow this. Nixon said this in response to someone asking about the Fund? It seems unrelated.
    • "By this time, Nixon campaign headquarters was receiving a flood of telephone calls, calling on the senator to resign from the ticket." Can you revise to avoid the "calls calling"?
    • "Denied any hard information as to what Nixon would say, rumors flew through the media." Dangling modifier. The "rumors" were not denied.
    • "The senator alleged that Stevenson had minimized the threat of communism, and was thus unfit to be president." Seems like minimizing a threat would be a good thing. Do you mean "downplayed"?
    • "With less than three minutes left to go in the allotted time" "Left" and "to go" are redundant.
    • "Nixon skeptics joined in, with both Stassen and Dewey sending congratulatory telegrams." Revise to eliminate the noun plus -ing construction and the undesirable "with" connector. I've fixed a few of these already, but I'm getting tired. :)
--Laser brain (talk) 20:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: A strong article. I've been reading Rick Perlstein's recent Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America, and this article provides much of the extra detail on the speech that I might have wanted. However, there does seem to be a significant aspect of the speech that is not currently covered. I'll simply quote from Perlstein. He's describing how exactly Nixon's speech prompted a favorable public reaction:

What delivered the telegrams were the stories. These, too, left plenty of room for dispute. "I worked my way through college," he said—he hadn't; "I guess I'm entitled to a couple of battle stars" from the war—he wasn't; his wife "was born on St. Patrick's Day"—she was born the day before St. Patrick's Day. (p. 39)

The article currently says Nixon "alluded to his work in college", without caveat; quotes him fibbing about his wife's birthday, without correction; and notes that Eisenhower told his wife "that Nixon was a completely honest man", again without caveat. (It does not cover Nixon's war claims.)


You'll note Perlstein's "too". Here's the referent:

The technical value of the financial accounting [Nixon offered] was highly debatable. It would be highly debated. His account of smears the press supposedly piled upon him during the Hiss case and after was even more so. This would be debated, too. (p. 39)

While the article currently covers the general media reaction, pro and con, there is no mention of specific debates concerning Nixon's accuracy and veracity.


Perlstein does not identify specific sources for the page from which I've quoted, but his main sources for the Checkers speech include the following: David Greenberg, Nixon's Shadow: The Shaping of His Character (pp. 31–35); Tom Wicker, One of Us: Richard Nixon and the American Dream (pp. 80–110); and Fawn Brodie, Richard Nixon: The Shaping of His Character (pp. 271–89).—DCGeist (talk) 06:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is what the final quote talks about; Nixon made himself seem "one of us". After all, that's why he chose that quote generally attributed to Lincoln. The quote will make that clear to anyone who hasn't had his face rubbed in it by carefully selected quotes which I include from the speech. I chose the quotes I did either to (a) make that point, which was the majore point of Nixon's speech, (b) because they're famous, (c) for plot purposes (the ones that were aimed at Eisenhower), (d) irony ("I'm not a quitter") (e) to dispose of a part of the speech that would be troublesome to summarize, or (f) multiples of the preceding. I read Perlstein in a bookstore and found him highly biased and prone to misstatements. I haven't read Wicker, but I've read Greenberg. Brodie's book is generally discredited, by the way.
The thing is, the quote you mention is inaccurate. Nixon never offered an accounting. Eisenhower had Price Waterhouse trek out to the then-wilds of eastern L.A. county and do an accounting of Smith's records. And it came out clean. It was published in the NY Times, in full, on the 24th, by the way.
There is a comment, if you hit "edit this page" about his birthday comment about his wife. But, it isn't very much of a whopper. Ever wonder why she's called "Pat" or "Patricia" Nixon when her name was Thelma? The Ryan family nicknamed her "Pat" because her birthday was so close to St. Patrick's Day. Putting in a comment there is full disclosure enough, and will save the article over the long haul from unneeded edits. The other two--well, Ambrose, Black, and Morris, Nixon's main biographers for this period, don't twig on the question of the battle stars or the work through college, and I'm unable to find any contemporary news account questioning either. Please remember that 1952 was an era when people were very sensitive to the idea of a man claiming war honors he hadn't earned, and Nixon's war record was public knowledge after three election campaigns.
The other things you mention, his veracity/disclosure about the Fund, are discussed in the various newspaper quotes, and in the quote from Senator Anderson. I give the basics, the reader is free to examine the sources for more information. I tried to avoid both the "Nixon? He was a great guy, it was all the fault of everyone else, all the way" and "That rotten Nixon, he smeared Voorhis, he smeared Douglas, he hid behind his dog, all the way to Watergate ..." I think I did a pretty good job there.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:00, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Response: Since you seem to think nothing needs to be done, it appears I need to follow up (with a little research in a couple cases). On the specific points:
College work record. Nixon said, "I worked my way through college." This appears to be a simple falsehood. Black (p. 23) indicates a bequest from Nixon's grandfather "effectively defray[ed] all the costs of higher learning in Whittier." You need to cast your net a bit more widely on this. If you still find no one but Perlstein addressing the issue, the text of the article stills need to be changed. The statement that Nixon "alluded to his work in college" is unsatisfactory given the facts.
Pat's birthday. Your response is inadequate. As a fib, I agree Nixon's statement is of little significance; but as an objective misstatement of fact, it can't be left as is. Don't imagine that incorrect information in an article is properly handled with an advisory visible only via "edit this page." That's a special function the average reader does not and can not be expected to think about. If you choose to quote an objectively erroneous statement in the article, you must provide the correct information in the article. (In this case, I think it's fine if you want to do it in a footnote, rather than the main text.)
Battle stars. Nixon did earn two battle stars, per a preponderance of sources. Perlstein appears to be wrong.
Accuracy of the "accounting". Of course, no one's claiming that Nixon was a professional accountant. Perlstein's phrasing (without interpolation: "The technical value of the financial accounting that followed was highly debatable") does not make it absolutely clear whether he is referring to Nixon's rather detailed account of his personal financial affairs or to his more general account of the Fund's outlays, or both. In any event, he article currently contains no coverage of opinions about the accuracy and/or veracity of Nixon's account of these financial matters. Quoting a few general opinions about the speech, pro and con, is insufficient. You quote Anderson saying, "I wish he had talked about the 18,000 bucks." That doesn't go the question of accuracy/veracity. (And, of course, Nixon does offer an explanation of how the $18,000 was spent: "to finance items which are not official business but which are primarily political business.")
Supposed press smears. Nixon said, "I remember in the dark days of the Hiss case some of the same columnists, some of the same radio commentators who are attacking me now and misrepresenting my position, were violently opposing me at the time I was after Alger Hiss." Again, the article currently contains no coverage of opinions about the accuracy of Nixon's version of his history with the press, a significant matter. Once again, quoting a few general opinions about the speech, pro and con, is insufficient.
Even beyond these last two points, the Legacy section is still a distance from being comprehensive, and needs to be beefed up. There's a considerable amount of literature that analyzes the speech as a work of rhetoric--within its immediate historical context, within the arc of Nixon's career, and within the general context of American political rhetoric. That literature needs to be addressed. You might start with Garry Wills's Nixon Agonistes, and go from there.
You have, indeed, done a "pretty good job" composing a balanced article. But the article's not done.—DCGeist (talk) 15:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to DCGeist. Would you consider the possibility that deconstructing the speech further would be going into too much detail? The article is already pretty long, considering it's about one speech. Heck it's almost as long as Gettysburg Address. From my reading, the article appears balanced—it neither glorifies the speech nor casts it as a pack of lies by a political opportunist. I believe that close examination of the veracity of various parts of the speech may be out of scope for this article. We should leave it at telling the reader what he said, providing the context and background, and letting them do further research if they want to deep-dive. --Laser brain (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment The article already has two explanatory notes in references (current refs 51 and 57), so I think these issues could be addressed in a footnote or two (and agree that notes in the text itself are not needed). Instead of a hidden comment in the text, a ref footnote could be added after the Pat's a fighter sentence that was something like "Pat Nixon was born Thelma Catherine Ryan on March 16, 1912, and was called "Pat" by her family because her birth date was so close to St. Patrick's Day." (not great, but you get the idea). A similar note could be added after the college and military service sentence, at least mentioning Perlstein's book. Finally I think the author and name of the recent book on Lincoln's supposed quote should be given, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree with both of you. However, on the case of the college, I would just leave that be. I did a little research myself. How do you define "work my way through college"? Every cent earned from the job? According to Morris, page 111, as a descendant of Franklin Milhous (his grandfather), he was entitled to draw from a fund left by Milhous to Whittier College for a full tuition scholarship ($250 a year). That still left fees and other expenses for a student living at home averaging $50 a year, in the Depression. I don't know who paid those fees, but Nixon certainly worked in the family grocery store through college (page 122, 139 for example). This was a political speech. It will stand analysis in some ways, and in those ways, mostly political, the article does so. However, like Laserbrain says, you can't analyze every word of it for truthfulness. Are we to analyze for truth his attacks on Stevenson, on Truman? You'd find that they contain as much truth as any political speech. And no more. The other things I will work on and have in this afternoon. Please feel free to alter what I do, never been a big footnote in text man, meself.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:48, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The new notes look fine to me, thanks. Having reread the discussion above, the whole Legacy section of the article and the pertinent parts on the speech itself, I do not see the need for a note on Nixon's work to pay for college, or especially on his military service. I also think the Legacy section as written seems sufficient, though I am not a Nixon expert by any means - this is an article on the speech and it seems to me the Legacy section (and the article as a whole) meet WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV and other criteria. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good article—a very good article—in terms of its description of the speech, but I believe it falls short of our comprehensiveness standard. Length comparisons to our Gettysburg Address article are beside the point—this is the FAC for the Checkers speech article, so let's focus on that. This is one of the most anaylzed speeches in American history, and I don't believe the article at present adequately reflects the analytical literature. For instance, I have agreed that as it pertains to his honesty, Nixon's fib about his wife's birthday falling on St. Patrick's Day is small beans. But why did Nixon bring it up at all? Just to make a point that no quitters could be found in his family, as one would currently gather from the article? Hardly. Conrad Black explains:

This was a straight play for the one-quarter of Americans who were Roman Catholics, most of them habitual Democrats...[though Pat] had never been a Roman Catholic and was in fact an agnostic. (p. 250)

It's analysis such as that of the speech's craft and content that helps the reader understand not just the speech's immediate impact, but why it remains one of the country's most examined political texts.—DCGeist (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the article has that. We cannot discss every phrase of the speech, therefore as a matter of editorial judgment you have to pick and choose. You have to explain about the dog, for obvious reasons. You need to explain about the coat, at least the origin in Eugene (I restrained myself from mentioning that Nixon was helping Pat on with the now famous coat when Eisenhower bounded on the airplane in Wheeling). We discuss the ones where the reader has to know, or that the writer thinks he should know because it impacts the story. And your points seem to be skew anyway. You want to let the reader know that Nixon hoped to attract the 19 voters nationwide who would select their candidate based on the perceived religion of the Veep candidate's wife. Then you discuss the imact today? That paragraph in the Checkers speech is relevant for exactly one reason. The irony of Nixon saying he was not a quitter, in view of his resignation from the Presidency. That relevance is obvious by inspection by the reader. It is certainly not a lesson example of how to get Roman Catholic votes based on the perceived religion of the Veep candidate's wife.
Lazy people don't do FA's. But I don't agree with you, and feel like your proposed changes would make the article worse, not better. That's just my considered judgment, in which at least two reviewers apparently join.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure how "lazy" suddenly came up here. Though I do have a concern about judgment: You dismissed Perlstein earlier in this thread; you have now as much as stated that your personal analysis of the St. Patrick's Day passage is superior to Black's. There's really nothing more for me to add, except...
  • Oppose: Fails 1b—comprehensiveness—for multiple reasons described above. There are related 1c concerns, as well.—DCGeist (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Perlstein is a questionable source, careless of facts (you yourself pointed out the battle star fiasco), and carelessly researched in my view. There's enough written on the Checkers speech per you that I am entitled to pick and choose, and Wills, which I've read (the part about Checkers anyway) is just a recounting of the speech, with bits of opinion ("the two men never trusted each other again", which flies in the teeth of the heart attack crisis, the Stassen effort to throw Nixon off the ticket in 1956, and also why Nixon was sent to Moscow in 1959). And yes, you have to know your subject to write a FA about a collectively-recalled subject like this, there are tons of details that vary in accounts, and judgment is needed, and I think here has been used appropriately. By the way, have you read the scholarly reviews of Black, or any serious part of the book? He's to be carefully used because he bends over backwards to excuse Nixon. Go on, google "Conrad Black Richard Nixon" and look at the reviews. I use him very cautiously, the one bit about Nixon gaining lifetime supporters through the speech is about it, with inline attribution, and a few factual matters
As for your oppose, that is your privilege, though I would note that your reason you don't think it is comprehensive has slid all over the place since you began engaging in this. I'll leave it to the judgment of the FA director. Simply, there is no way, in an article that is not titled "List of explanations of references by and strategy of Richard Nixon in the Checkers speech", to do what you want.. The article is comprehensive per standard 1b. The oppose is unfortunate, but the opposer hasn't engaged with two reviewers who have told him that the article is fine. Standard 1b says " (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context;" The article does so, the reviewer seems to want a blow by blow analysis of the Checkers speech which would chop up the article in little bits and make it virtually unreadable. I don't consider the objection actionable for the reasons stated by myself and two other reviewers who have tried to engage, unsuccessfully, with him, and I don't think there's much more to be said myself.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This is a very well-written article and gives a balanced context for its discussion. I agree that further detail about the points raised by DCGeist would obfuscate, more than illuminate, the discussion. Obviously, there is a large body of commentary on the speech and Nixon's claims generally. Our job, in writing WP articles is to choose among secondary sources to present, for the general reader, the most important information about the subject in a format that is of appropriate length for an encyclopedia article. I think the choices that Wehwalt has made here reasonably optimize the reading experience for the WP audience. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [81].

Great Northern, Piccadilly and Brompton Railway

Nominator(s): DavidCane (talk) 22:53, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am re-nominating this for featured article. It's a companion piece to two of my existing featured articles on the early history of London's tube lines. It was previously nominated in April, but the nomination was closed unsuccessfully due, I believe, to lack of support. I believe that all previous issues raised were addressed. Images are either self-created, uploaded as attribution sharealike from Flickr or PD due to age. --DavidCane (talk) 22:53, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The CULG site gives a comprehensive list of its published sources here plus other, more general, sources here (under sources). I have a number of the books listed in the bibliography (using two of them myself as sources for the article) and have crossed-checked information listed on the site against these without discovering any discrepancies, so it seems fair to conclude that other information is also properly sourced. The information for which the web site is cited in the article is:
  1. the length of line in the original form and current condition. I have confirmed these are accurate by:
  2. the number of lifts at certain stations - which matches the observable facts.
--DavidCane (talk) 03:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: An important article in the history of London's transport system, around which topic a decent series of articles is in the making. My one reservation, fully aired at the last FAC, concerned the legibility of some of the text in the charts. This still niggles – but not enough to prevent me supporting. Brianboulton (talk) 21:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: no issues with the images. They are verifiably either self-created (and appropriately licensed) or in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 22:09, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Still where the away fans for Arsenal FC get off, so keeping the name's at least defensible (since they'll be the ones least likely to look on the map, think "ah, Finsbury Park looks closer", and get hopelessly lost. – iridescent 19:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, (but with a query, following). Beautifully written, and an interesting and detailed history. This is the first time I have contributed to a FAC review, so I apologise if I'm off base at all. I have a general query about the decision when to provide an inline citation. The referencing appears excellent, but from time to time there is a sentence that contains a substantive fact that does not have an in-line cite. The one that particularly attracted my attention was this: "However, competition from numerous small bus companies during the early 1920s eroded the profitability of the LGOC and had a negative impact on the profitability of the whole UERL group." Is the lack of a cite tag on this sentence because the next tag (which occurs part way through the next para in this case) includes this fact? I have wrestled with this issue with some GA candidates, too. My concern is that a reviewer cannot tell, without going to the source material, whether they should assume a later citation covers a fact in the current sentence, or whether there is actually a problem with a fact not being supported by any ref at all. If the citation in the following para does also cover this fact about bus competition, my comment would be that the reliance of several consecutive sentences on a single cite should not extend across paras. I hope my query makes sense. Any guidance or response? Cheers. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [82].

Battle of Ticonderoga (1759)

Nominator(s): Magic♪piano 20:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This is the third article I've submitted having to do with Fort Ticonderoga. Hopefully, the FA reviewers will smile on this one as well. This action is noteworthy mainly because this year is the 250th anniversary of the event (as it also is of a somewhat more famous battle in the French and Indian War).

The article has passed a GA review, as well as a fairly straightforward MILHIST A-Class review; I've worked since then primarily to tighten the writing. Thank you for taking the time to review. Magic♪piano 20:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
  • I've made some minor changes to the article in addition to these comments below. If there's any problems, don't hesitate to let me know.
    • Comment No problem, it's not my article.
  • This might sound silly, but can you use the term "Frenchmen" to define French-Canadians ... or do you not make that distinction that far back?
    • Comment The regular military and the provincial militia in New France were distinct (as they were in the British colonies). On the other hand, I can probably remove that whole distinction in the background paragraph, as it's hardly vital. Done
  • The lede mentions "improvements to the area" after the fort's fall, but I don't see any mention of these later in the article. Could you please explain them?
    • Comment Aftermath, second paragraph (roads, construction of Crown Point).
  • In the Background section, do you think "broken" is jargon, or should it be clear through inference?
    • Comment I'll change it to "defeated". Done
  • I'm a little confused by the starting positions for the 1759 campaign. Fort Ticonderoga is in the United States today, yet it was built by the French in French-controlled territory?
    • Comment I will clarify this. That was the frontier between New York and New France at the time. Done
  • Going "north, down Lake Champlain" seems a little awkward; most people (or at least me) don't think of north as down, even though I can grasp what you're saying.
    • Comment I need to communicate that going north is indeed going "down" the lake (i.e. towards its exit), precisely because people don't usually think of "north" as "down". Changed "down" to "on".
  • I know you probably don't want to repeat what's written in the Fort Ticonderoga article, but it might be worth pushing the line about why the French built the forts up toward the top of the article and expound a bit on the geography -- why the British had to advance up this route.
    • Comment I'll add some more strategic background. Done, I think.
  • When you say "from Pennsylvania to New Hampshire and Massachusetts", this might not be clear to a non-American audience; what colonies this includes isn't obvious.
  • Going back to the fourth comment, it's not clear where you're talking about when you mention "frontier forts".
    • Comment Would something like "western frontier forts" be an improvement? (I could also import this map if that would help.)
      • It just goes back to the question about where the border was between British and French claims ... I know the frontier moved gradually westward, but I just don't know where it was at this time. Judging from the map, it appears that it was near the Ohio River. Is that correct? JKBrooks85 (talk) 01:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've added the map (it's more useful than the Ti detail map anyway); I trust the language I've added clarifies the territorial situation at the time.
  • You've got wikilinks for the British regiments; should the French "La Reine and Berry" regiments get links at least to their namesakes?
    • Comment I don't believe they have pages. The best list currently in WP appears to be here, and even the on are stubby.
  • The Commemorations section is a bit barren ... could you add a bit about what's planned? Were there any celebrations for other anniversaries -- 200th, 150th, etc.?
    • Comment Good question. I know the fort was opened to the public in 1909, but the inaugural events marked Champlain's "discovery". I'll have to see if anything obvious turns up for 1959. (The Battle of Carillon is much more likely to have been marked by major events.)
      • The only indications of commemoration in 1959 I've been able to turn up are from news accounts of events celebrating Champlain. (I'd like to extend to section once there are news accounts of this year's events.)
  • Support. All my questions have been answered, and the article is clear, concise, and doesn't skip any relevant portion of the subject that I can detect. It's a good article, and I wish the editors luck on the next articles in what I assume is an eventual featured topic. JKBrooks85 (talk) 04:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review - File:French and Indian War map.png - The template is not good. We need to know which edition of the Harper's Encyclopedia this image comes from (there are three) and we need to know which volume (there are ten). It would, of course, also be nice to have an author. Did you check the encyclopedia itself? Finally, note that the current license is incorrect. It cannot be 100 years plus the life of the author, since the author is not listed. We either need to find the name of the author and list his/her death date or change the license to PD-1923. Awadewit (talk) 17:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sourced The image page identifies it as coming from the 1905 edition. I've added a link to the page with the image in Google Books. The license comes from {{Harper's Encyclopedia of US History}}. Magic♪piano 17:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have now fixed the image information from the Google Books scan (note that this image is from Volume 3, published in 1906). Also, note that since we don't know who the artist is, we cannot use the license that accompanies the template since it claims 100 years plus the life of the author. We have to use the PD-1923 license, which means that the work is in the public domain because it was published before 1923 in the US. I have now added that to the image description page. Awadewit (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional support This article appears to be comprehensive to me - it covers all major aspects of the "battle" - and is well-written. I just have a couple of questions below.
  • Carillon, located near the southern end of Lake Champlain, occupied a place that was strategic in importance before white men arrived in North America - Could we be more specific about which white men these are? :)
  • to lead an army into Canada by going north on Lake Champlain - "along Lake Champlain" or "across Lake Champlain"?

Once the image issue is resolved, I will support. Awadewit (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll clarify these. (I assume you'd rather have it say something like "Europeans" than "white men"?) Magic♪piano 17:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know specifically which Europeans? More specificity is better - French? Spanish? British, etc. Awadewit (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I trust my last edit is specific enough? (I've also changed "going north on" to "sailing north on"; I don't like "along" because it could imply "beside", and I don't like "across" because the lake's geography implies to me a crossing of the short dimension.) Magic♪piano 19:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good! Awadewit (talk) 03:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query Is there a reason why these really old sources are being cited (especially with respect to factual items such as statistics/dates)? Seems like a safer route would be to verify these statements against more modern sources. BuddingJournalist 01:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some of the force numbers in this, especially those of the militias, were maddeningly difficult to track down. Part of this is due to the relative unimportance of this event in 1759, as it was overshadowed by the Quebec action, but also most modern treatments of the war just don't seem to give things like the militia numbers (note that I've been unable to locate actual numbers for the militia contributions of Pennsylvania, Connecticut, or Rhode Island). The infobox numbers are all sourced to fairly recent works.
    • I also have a slight bias toward placing citations in Internet-readable sources, especially if something is relatively uncontroversial. Magic♪piano 04:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and query I can't see any major issues, but I don't like the forced image size for File:Ticonderoga attack plan2.jpg. This overrides user preferences, and the whole point of thumbnails is that you can click on them for tthe full-size image. jimfbleak (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was actually motivated to improve this article (which was fairly stubby) in part by Durova's work on that map (which is a Featured Picture). In my opinion it is only usable if displayed somewhat larger. With the larger size at least some detail is more visible. This is just my opinion, of course; if consensus otherwise seems to prefer default sizing, I'm OK with that. (Thanks for your support!) Magic♪piano 15:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [83].

Battle of Vimy Ridge

Nominator(s): Labattblueboy (talk) 04:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I think the article, as it stands, is likely the best and most widely cited piece of work on the subject currently on the internet. As it stands, the article has involved over a year of research and review and cites 33 separate pieces of work, most of which are academically reviewed. It has been through GA, A-class level reviews as well as a peer review. Every attempt has been made to deliver a fair perspective of the battle, a difficult task with the cultural attachments Canada has made to the battle. Labattblueboy (talk) 04:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Durand Group is an archaeological and research group. They are an authority figure on First World War underground warfare and the principal authority for underground warfare at Vimy Ridge. Any source talking about underground warfare either makes reference to their work or have directly consulted them in producing it. --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed your done templates to done as the use of graphics and templates is discouraged at FAC. (You can only put so many templates on a page before the page goes belly up... we've done it in the past.) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:43, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
  • Reference 55 does not work (it does not go down to the proper book at the bottom of the page) done
Corrected Tucker citation, apparently the reference had not previously been included. --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I only found two with issues (Farr and Wynne refs). Don't believe any others lacking ISBNs have one and verified such through isbndb.com. --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Ashworth in refs but not notes; ditto Ross. A much bigger problem is that four authors (Boire, Cook, Godefroy and Sheldon) have more than one book in the refs, but no attempt was made in the notes to specify which of the books by a given author was being cited. This absolutely must be fixed. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 13:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC) done[reply]
Ashworth, Ross and the Sheldon/Cave have been removed. All citation already link to the proper book through the footnote inline links. I have nevertheless added the year and in the Godefroy case, year + a & b.--Labattblueboy (talk) 14:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support

  • Non-breaking spaces missing between numbers and following text
I'm not putting nbsp after every number and following text, that's ridiculous. It's been done for distances, quantities in the millions and for time. I have not and will not go through the trouble of adding them for when it comes to qunatities (such as number of men, aircraft, squadrons, artillery pieces, ect) under one million, units or formation names or dates. It's a military article full of figures, there is going to be end-of-line displacement. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your call, however I think you'll find some folks may have a different opinion of this.
  • en-dash should be used for page number ranges
Done and done. It had been done earlier but looks like it got undone somewhere along the line. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Passive voice used in a number of places where active might be better largely complete completed
Examples please. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "formal assault plan was adopted..." done
  • "Canadian divisions were to be assembled "
  • "Canadian divisions were joined by the British " done
  • "once a salient of considerable German resistance was overcome" done
  • "Byng had been formally presented with orders" done
(+others)
Significant decrease in the number of passive voice examples, particularly those employing "was" or "were" and, to a lesser extent, "had". Those that seem to work best as passive voice have been left as such. --Labattblueboy (talk) 06:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should consider adding conversion templates for km distances done
  • "To logistically manage" = split infinitive; also a fragmented sentence that could probably be structured a little better done
Changed to: "The Canadian Corps was allocated three times the artillery normally assigned to a corps for regular operations.[5] To manage the logistics associated with the increased artillery, Royal Artillery staff officer Major Alan Brooke developed coordinated communication and transport plans to work in conjunction with the complex barrage plans" --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Artillery" section - too many sentences starting with "To..."? done
you are very right. I think this has now been largely corrected. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mines" is not linked in the article done
In the Background section, mines is not linked to Mining (military) and in the Underground operations section, underground warfare is linked to tunnel warfare. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Time should include a time zone no action needed
ahhh, I have never a) heard this request before or b) seen use of time zones in an FA class military article. I don't really see what the benefit is in including it. So unless required by a editorial consensus I am going to pass on action this item. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mentioned it because I saw this usage in another FAC recently, however I don't know if it's required so let's leave it at that.
  • "four hundred eighty", "one hundred thirty-eight" etc - use digits for numbers per WP:MOSNUM no action needed
As per WP:MOSNUM, adjacent quantities which are not comparable should usually be in different formats. one hundred thirty-eight 4.5 inch howitzers works better than 138 4.5 inch howitzers --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the aftermath, can the bullet points be phrased as text?
It will end up being a long sequence within a sentence and will certainly not read very well as plain text. Although I know MoS generally frowns on embedded lists, I believe the current presentation works a bit better. --Labattblueboy (talk) 02:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should take another look at this.
I took another look at this and tried the edit in sandbox. In my view it doesn't work as clean readible text unless the units formation names is removed. This would be no big deal for the Canadian medal winners as I suspect the info is on their respective articles but it would be detremental for the German side. Thoughts? --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A 250 acres portion..." - "A 250 acre portion..."? done
Since it’s an adjective “acre” (no "s") is correct. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed one more
  • What did the memorial cost to build in today's money (See the {{Inflation}} template)
No idea. I don't think the parameters of the inflation template were designed for such an example. Canadian government funds were allocated and spent over no less than an 11 year period and you can be certain the funds were not allocated in a straight-line fashion. Construction takes place over the Canadian Great Depression, a period that included both inflation and deflation. Calculating the inflation rate would certainly not be easy. There is no Canadian central bank until 1935 so if calculating through interest rates you'd have to find the historical interest rates from the Bank of Montreal (the gov't banker the time). If calculating via CPI which do you use, Canadian for French. There are too many fluctuating factors and unknowns for me to feel comfortable making this estimate. An accurate result would require primary research. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mutiple references should be consolidated, e.g. "Granatstein p. 113" done
I think that one was a fluke, didn't see any other than the Granatstein p. 113 --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Humphries pp. 73-76
  • Samuels pp. 200-202
  • Fragmented sentence
  • "The town of Thélus and, after overcoming considerable German resistance, the crest of the ridge fell during the second day" done
changed to: "The town of Thélus fell to the Canadian Corps during the second day of the attack, as did the crest of the ridge once a salient of considerable German resistance was overcome."
  • Split infinitive: "to properly apply" done
corrected --Labattblueboy (talk) 02:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inconsistent use of past tense (e.g. "The Battle of Vimy Ridge was a military engagement fought as part of the Battle of Arras" vs "In May 1916, Byng had been formally presented with orders")
  • Consistent use of regional English (e.g. "recognized" vs "recognised"; "color" vs "colour")
This one is a continuous battle but I believe I have caught them all. Please review. done --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "totaling" vs "totalling" (totalling) done
  • You should take a look at the POV- the article is written from a Canadian perspective, with "the enemy" implicitly German in a number of locations. (i.e. The Canadians were the enemy too, from the German's perspective) done
Where relevant, I have gone through and replaced enemy with a nationality. Other suggestions?
  • Weasel words: "Often this belief is specifically anchored on the Canadian victory at Vimy Ridge" done
Re-written, expanded and citation given. --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Missing access dates for : "All of Vimy Ridge Cleared of Germans", "Official History of the Canadian Army...", "Here at Vimy..." done
  • Incomplete sentence: "However, only after they had run out of ammunition, mortars rounds and grenades." done
combined with previous sentence.
  • "Influence on Canada" - the wording in section needs some tightening up, as I feel it's too flowery for an encyclopedia. in progress done
I'm not sure that can be done, it's a cultural influence summary which essentially makes it a POV nightmare. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have re-written the section. I have done my best to improve its objectivity. I am welcome any suggestions you may have on improving this section. It's a tricky one. --Labattblueboy (talk) 21:07, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Copyvio - the word-for-word unquoted text I found in the "Influence on Canada" section is a concern for me at the moment - are there any other parts of the text like this? done
Removed offending text. How would you suggest I proceed in replacing it or would that not be necessary. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My concern is not over this sentence, which if duely quoted presents no problem, but rather that there may be other text like this elsewhere in the article. I don't know the history of who contributed what, but it might be worth checking the additions of the editor who added that text if it was not you.
  • "The main combatants were the Canadian Corps against three divisions of the German Sixth Army" - should you not state that 70,000 of the Canadian Corps was not Canadian? no action needed
It is indirectly stated in the Strategic planning section. The number of Canadians is noted rather than the number of non-Canadians --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've probably not explained myself very well - someone reading the introduction would not necessary be aware that only 58% of the Canadian Core was Canadian ("The main combatants were the Canadian Corps against three divisions of the German Sixth Army") i.e. it was not simply Canadian vs Germans. PS: Please don't strike out my comments.
My apologies, striking your comments was not meant to me malicious just organizational, I will stop doing so. I don't really see the percentage of Canadians in the corps being of central importance to the basic description of the battle. This being said, I have gone through the article and removed any reference to "Canadians" or "Canadian troops" and replaced them with "Canadian Corps" or appropriate unit/formation name to help remove any national possessiveness but I can't help that the name of the formation is the Canadian Corps.--Labattblueboy (talk) 00:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The heavy preliminary artillery bombardments of the Canadian Corps ahead of their own offensive ultimately prevented the Germans from executing their pre-emptive attack" - I'm not sure in this sentence who did the bombing... done
shortened and simplified.--Labattblueboy (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've read that the attack was initially planned for Sun 8 April, but delayed for a day over concerns about the barbed wire not being cleared. Is there a way to incorporate this information?
I do believe the entire arras offensive was pushed by a day, but I don't know when that was decided or for what purpose. Most of the material I have been dealing with makes no mention of it though. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC) done[reply]
Take a look at the link in my comment above
The link offered no information as to why it was delayed or when that decision was taken. However, I have found an appropriate and will include citation and text in the April 9 section.--Labattblueboy (talk) 00:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you considered using this image of the memorial, which seems to fit better with the timeline and text in the article? done
It's a good image but it doesn't show the memorial as a whole. I'm not really of a strong opinion of one image or the other though and would not oppose an image change here. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is there no mention at all of Arthur Currie, who appears to have been involved closely with the French lectures about Verdun, the development of Canadian tactics used in the assault and who in 1917 became the first Canadian commander of the Canadian Corps? done
There was no particular reason for the omission. Some histories have sought to overemphasize Currie's involvement in the planning for some very obvious Canadian nationalistic purposes but that certainly isn't reason for omitting him either. I am working on incorporating additional points of information. --Labattblueboy (talk) 15:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have added Currie's influence in the developing the assault plan and his contribution via his post-Verdun lecture. --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - in my view, this engaging and well-written article satisfies the FA criteria. I cannot comment on the comprehensiveness because this is not a subject I know much about. I have made a few minor edits to the prose, [84], please check that I have not introduced any errors of fact. Graham Colm Talk 14:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image concern as follows:

The map is marked as being produced by the 1st Field Survey Company, Royal Engineers on the bottom left by the Canadian Corps boundary line. Base maps were largely produced by the Ordnance Survey (OS). This being said, the supplementary work to the base map could make it a Canadian crown copyright issue. "British-Canadian Military Cartography on the Western Front, 1914-1918" by Jeffery Murray in Archivaria 26 (Summer 1988) offers some good detail on the history. So I would say, OS w/ Canadian crown copyright should about cover it. The source archive does not list any restrictions so I feel pretty safe is saying it's public domain. --Labattblueboy (talk) 23:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt the 1st Field Survey Company is Canadian. The map, supplied to the Canadian Corps, is British work (OS and military)—hence UK Crown Copyright. Marked as such. Jappalang (talk) 01:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good call. To be honest I hadn't thought of the UK Crown copyright and you're right it would be more appropriate. --Labattblueboy (talk) 12:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other Images are verifiably in public domain, the above might become a concern (note: the issue is regarding verifiability). Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC) Support - well written, well-sourced, and an excellent source of information. MelicansMatkin (talk) 23:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Melman 1986, p. 69.
  2. ^ Seale 1992, pp. 91–92.
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Seale92 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=296835076

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