The Culinary Institute of America has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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This page needs expanding as it is an American educational institution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Destitute (talk • contribs)

Hi Editors, I'm Robin, here as part of my work for Beutler Ink on behalf of The Culinary Institute. I have a request to update some of the basic statistics and make a few other minor changes in the article.

I propose changing:

In the infobox

• The founder parameter to "founders" and adding Frances Roth and Katharine Cramer Angell to the list of founders -  Done I also revised the text. No sources mention the New Haven Restaurant Association. The Yale source calls the founding entity the New Haven Restaurant Institute. STEMinfo (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• The chairman to John C. Metz Jr. to reflect recent changes as supported by this source

 Done STEMinfo (talk) 01:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The number of academic staff to 197; number of undergrads to 3,005 (Fall 2022); number of postgrads to 119 (Fall 2022), all based on this National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) report

 Done STEMinfo (talk) 01:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the Faculty section:

• The first sentence to read "As of Fall 2022, the school had 130 full-time and 67 part-time faculty members." per the NCES link

 Done I changed the wording to indicate that the source for the faculty demographics is the school's own web directory. STEMinfo (talk) 02:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the Admissions section:

• The Princeton Review selectivity rating to reflect the current number of 75 out of 99 per the updated report
• The applications received to 1,887 in fall 2022, with 95% accepted, per NCES
• The SAT range of accepted students being 930 to 1200 and ACT composite range being 17 to 26 per this report from College Board

 Done In your recommended text, you named a ref that I can't find anywhere else. <ref name=CollegeBoard2024/> You also wrote that the ACT and SAT scores are in this report, but it clearly says not available. I instead used the Princeton Review report, but clarified it that those are numbers CIA self-reported to the Review. I removed the unsourced 2016 transfer data. It doesn't seem important. STEMinfo (talk) 01:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the Enrollment section:

• Enrollment to 3,005 undergrads (415 transfers) and 119 graduates; 95% of students being enrolled full time per the NCES
• 18% of students being from New York and 12% of students being international per the NCES
• 82% of students being 24 or younger (replacing the sentence "The student body has an average age of 22 years") per the NCES
• Average GPA being 3.0 and 68% of students living on campus per Princeton Review
• Replacing the second paragraph with the following, which is more up to date

 Done BINK Robin I learned a lot doing these edits. There were list defined references in the table that I deleted. Those had to be removed from the references or a ref error shows up. Please also include the references in the requested change section, rather than just a ref name, so the reflist talk section doesn't come up with a number and letters and nothing else. It makes it easier to check the refs, particularly if they are being used incorrectly. You can test your future text requests in your sandbox, to make sure the requests won't cause any cascading problems, such as with undefined ref names or stray defined refs that are unused. I also noticed when I went to close this request that you closed it before it was done. It's done now. STEMinfo (talk) 01:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@STEMinfo I've learned a fair bit too. Thanks for your patience with this. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for those stray references in the future. BINK Robin (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please let me know what you think! Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 15:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BINK Robin: The edit backlog is getting long. It would speed things up if you posted the actual text you want added. See my draft doc for the TextDiff suggestion. User:STEMinfo/COI_edit_requests_for_novices#Showing_before_and_after_text_side_by_side STEMinfo (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@STEMinfo: I'm happy to provide the request in that format! I'll break it up just a little because I think it will be easier to look at.

Infobox

Faculty (note, I made some additional tweaks to this part of the request describing faculty composition)

Admissions

Enrollment

That should cover it. Thanks for taking a look! BINK Robin (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BINK Robin: The tables really get screwed up with the templates. Instead of posting the whole infobox, just post the lines that change. And the before and after prose isn't just changing numbers - you rewrote a bit also. I'll revisit later. STEMinfo (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@STEMinfo: You know, I could have made those prose changes more prominent. That was an oversight on my part. Below is a text diff of just the lines that I'd like to update in the Infobox. As for the rest, I can request those changes separately if you like. Thanks for your patience here. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BINK Robin (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done @BINK Robin: FYI that you still had Jon Luther's name in the requested text. Also, you might want to let them know that an old indexed but inaccessible otherwise page on their web site still says Luther is Chairman. See this link. STEMinfo (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@STEMinfo: Thank you! I’ll pass your note along. I’ve marked this request as answered and will revisit the enrollment and admissions changes later on. Cheers! BINK Robin (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi editors, as part of my work with The Culinary Institute of America, I am requesting changes to the Criticism section of the article. Per WP:STRUCTURE and WP:NOCRIT, I think the section should be redistributed into the History section at the appropriate places in the timeline to improve article neutrality and balance.

I'd also be curious for editors' thoughts on the content itself. I think the paragraphs on the 2008 complaints are WP:TMI and contain some details related to L. Timothy Ryan that need qualification per WP:BLPSTYLE, in particular I think adding the word "alleged" regarding his leadership style is important, because sourcing does not offer concrete evidence of a rather serious charge. Additionally, I think that it is important to include Ryan's response to the allegations and his analysis of why things escalated the way they did. Student walkouts are also pretty typical on college campuses and I don't believe they warrant separation into a criticism section. Overall, I think these paragraphs could be tightened up a fair bit with these changes in mind.

The paragraph regarding CCA protests is also over-detailed and the way it is written is a bit confusing. I also think that change to the way any institution is staffed is pretty routine and doesn't seem like it would be major or critical history. The protests were limited to those whose positions were eliminated but didn't extend beyond that, and I think that is pretty routine and a case of WP:NOTEVERYTHING.

Finally, I'd argue that the final paragraph of the current Criticism section contains a significant overabundance of information that is not directly relevant to the CIA as well as a phrase that pretty clearly seems to be WP:OR ("soon after the Weinstein effect began and because of it"). I think there is an opportunity to trim it significantly to keep the content focused on the CIA and keep the article WP:ONTOPIC.

I have created a draft in my user space showing all of what I hope to accomplish and a diff that specifically shows the changes in position and the textual changes that I hope we can use as a starting point.

@STEMinfo: would you be interested in reviewing this request? I did not use TextDiff because that wouldn't really work to show the changes in position and text but hope the diff I linked above explains it better. Cheers BINK Robin (talk) 21:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sdkb, Melchior2006, and Nikkimaria: thank you for taking a look at this request and making the changes you made. Sdkb, I saw your note about moving the section into "History". With the edits that have been made, would any of you feel comfortable with merging the remaining "Criticism" section into the appropriate places in the "History" section, in line with WP:NOCRIT? BINK Robin (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be fine to merge the the criticism content into appropriate sections. You can also delete the photo of the demonstration, since the demo was pretty small and the attention it draws is, in my opinion, UNDUE. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 15:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given that our capacity of photos is more constrained than our capacity of sources, DUE doesn't apply in quite the same way. We want the most relevant/due photo for a given section, but if the best-quality photo depicts only a minor event, it can still be a good option/better than nothing. Readers do not expect images to be DUE in the same way as text; they just expect them to be representative.

Therefore, I'd hesitate to remove the photo unless we have a better option available. I'd note for BINK Robin that you have the opportunity to influence our calculus by providing us with high-quality options for the history section uploaded to Commons. The best options are those that depict historical events that happened at the school, not just buildings (which are better for the campus section, although we welcome good images of those too). Sdkb ^talk 16:06, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Melchior2006 and Sdkb: thank you both for your thoughts. I talked with my contacts at the Culinary Institute of America and they provided me with the following photos as potential replacements. Confirmation of permissions should be in the VRT inbox. The first is of Frances Roth, co-founder of the CIA, which I think would give a nice visual of the person who started the school and could also be used on the Frances Roth article to give it an infobox image. The second is of some students working in a kitchen classroom in 1974. Please let me know if you think either of those work as replacements for the protest photo. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 18:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the new photo of the students in the kitchen is good. I still doubt the "criticism" section, because it is too much like recent news and based on a lot of allegations. Were the allegations ever proved? The protests in 2017 were about "planned" layoffs. That was seven years ago. Is that really so unusual? Did the layoffs even take place? This seems like an abuse of Wikipedia for anti-CIA publicity purposes. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 17:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Melchior2006:Thanks for the response! I will try to answer your questions the best I can.

According to WPDH, the workers were told they would be laid off on September 22, which would have been the Friday after this article was published. I haven't located any sourcing confirming the layoffs.

From what I can tell, the only reporting on the allegations to force workers to cut ties with their union comes from this Spectrum News article, which quotes union president Raymond Minew saying as much. The three other sources ([1], 2, 3) on the 2017 protests do not mention any allegations of forcing workers to cut ties with their union and I have not located sourcing showing a third-party check on those allegations.

I haven't seen anything about the protests in sourcing beyond when they occurred, so I think there is an argument that this content has some WP:RECENTISM problems. I'll leave the heart of the discussion on whether to include that content to volunteers, but I would argue that this is pretty routine and ultimately not something critical to understanding the history of the CIA. Staffing changes like these are pretty atypical for articles about colleges and universities in general.

Regardless of what the final decision is on keeping that content, I do think the "Criticism" heading causes some neutrality problems, and I think WP:NOCRIT and WP:STRUCTURE both come into play with the section heading. To me, folding this content into "History" makes the most sense from a general organizational standpoint and from a neutrality standpoint. Since I have a COI, I'll defer to what other editors decide is appropraite, but I hope that provides a little more clarity. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 21:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, the Edit-COI request template is not to be used when there is a dispute with the article. Secondly, you have not provided your request in an X to Y format (see WP:COIEDIT). Thirdly, a "Criticism" section does not necessarily consitute undue weight, it is merely if and when the information violates WP:NPOV is there a necessity to delete the section. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 23:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Criticism" might not be the best heading. Two of the criticisms have to do with labor union disputes, and a third has to do with protests about CIA producing "little more than telegenic lightweights" (NY Times' conclusion). What if we split these up according the appropriate sections in the article. The union disputes should be trimmed substantially according to BINK Robin's points. The disputes are not that unusual and don't have much to say about the CIA as a whole. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:11, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@P,TO 19104 and Melchior2006: I think if we wanted to distribute the content and remove the Criticism heading, it could look something like this:

Extended content

− <div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Main article: [[:History of the Culinary Institute of America]]</div> [[File:1. John M. Davies House, Exterior, From the Northwest.jpg|thumb|left|alt=An ornate Second Empire-style house|The [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies Mansion]] in 1964, during its use by the CIA]] The New Haven Restaurant Institute was founded by New Haven attorney [[Frances Roth]] and [[Katharine Cramer Angell|Katharine Angell]] on May 22, 1946 in [[New Haven]], Connecticut as a vocational training school for returning World War II veterans. It was the first [[Cooking school|culinary college]] in the United States. With assistance from [[Yale University]], the school purchased the [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies mansion]] in New Haven's [[Prospect Hill (New Haven)|Prospect Hill]] neighborhood. The first class consisted of sixteen students and the faculty included a [[dietitian]], a baker, and a chef. In 1947 the school was renamed the Restaurant Institute of Connecticut to reflect its growing repute; the school's name was changed again to the Culinary Institute of America in 1951. [[File:CIA Students 1974.jpg|thumb|CIA students in 1974]] Enrollment grew to approximately 1,000 students by 1969, beyond the capacity of its original campus, so the school purchased the [[St. Andrew-on-Hudson]] [[Jesuit]] [[Catholic novitiate|novitiate]] in Hyde Park, New York in 1970. In 1971, the college began awarding associate degrees, and opened its doors in Hyde Park in the following year. From 1974 to 1979, the school built three residence halls, a culinary library, a career planning center, and a learning resources center. From 1982 to 1984, the American Bounty and [[Caterina de' Medici]] Restaurants and St. Andrew's Café opened. In 1984, the school's continuing education center (later named the [[J. Willard Marriott]] Education Center) opened, and the school improved its teaching kitchens and constructed an experimental kitchen and food laboratory. In 1990, the school opened a baking and pastry facility, named two years later as the [[Takaki Bakery|Shunsuke Takaki]] School of Baking and Pastry. In 1993, the school opened its [[Conrad N. Hilton]] Library and began offering bachelor's degree programs. In 1995, the school's first branch campus opened, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Greystone]] in St. Helena, California. In 1998, the Student Recreation Center was opened.[[File:Culinary Institute of America (276631101).jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|alt=A four-story Neocolonial brick building|Roth Hall, the primary facility at the school's Hyde Park campus]] The Apple Pie Bakery Café opened in 2000, and the [[Colavita]] Center opened the following year. More residence halls were built at the school's Hyde Park campus in 2004. In 2005, Anton Plaza opened in Hyde Park while the Ventura Center for Menu Research and Development opened in St. Helena. The school's third campus opened in 2008 in San Antonio. Two years later, the CIA opened a campus in Singapore consisting of a facility on the campus of [[Temasek Polytechnic]]. In 2012, the CIA began offering a bachelor's degree program in culinary science, and in 2014 introduced a bachelor's degree in applied food studies. In 2015, the college expanded its recreation center and added a new dining facility for students, called The Egg; both are housed in the CIA's Student Commons building. In the same year, the college acquired a portion of [[Copia (museum)|Copia]], a museum in downtown [[Napa, California]] that operated from 2001 to 2008. In 2016, the college opened a campus, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Copia]], which houses the CIA's new Food Business School. The college, which was outgrowing its St. Helena campus, purchased the northern portion of the Copia property for $12.5 million. In 2018, the CIA launched a Bachelor of Science degree program in Hospitality Management and introduced master's-level education with a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Food Business. In 2019, the college began offering a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Wine Management. + <div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Main article: [[:History of the Culinary Institute of America]]</div> [[File:1. John M. Davies House, Exterior, From the Northwest.jpg|thumb|left|alt=An ornate Second Empire-style house|The [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies Mansion]] in 1964, during its use by the CIA]] The New Haven Restaurant Institute was founded by New Haven attorney [[Frances Roth]] and [[Katharine Cramer Angell|Katharine Angell]] on May 22, 1946 in [[New Haven]], Connecticut as a vocational training school for returning World War II veterans. It was the first [[Cooking school|culinary college]] in the United States. With assistance from [[Yale University]], the school purchased the [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies mansion]] in New Haven's [[Prospect Hill (New Haven)|Prospect Hill]] neighborhood. The first class consisted of sixteen students and the faculty included a [[dietitian]], a baker, and a chef. In 1947 the school was renamed the Restaurant Institute of Connecticut to reflect its growing repute; the school's name was changed again to the Culinary Institute of America in 1951. [[File:CIA Students 1974.jpg|thumb|CIA students in 1974]] Enrollment grew to approximately 1,000 students by 1969, beyond the capacity of its original campus, so the school purchased the [[St. Andrew-on-Hudson]] [[Jesuit]] [[Catholic novitiate|novitiate]] in Hyde Park, New York in 1970. In 1971, the college began awarding associate degrees, and opened its doors in Hyde Park in the following year. From 1974 to 1979, the school built three residence halls, a culinary library, a career planning center, and a learning resources center. From 1982 to 1984, the American Bounty and [[Caterina de' Medici]] Restaurants and St. Andrew's Café opened. In 1984, the school's continuing education center (later named the [[J. Willard Marriott]] Education Center) opened, and the school improved its teaching kitchens and constructed an experimental kitchen and food laboratory. In 1990, the school opened a baking and pastry facility, named two years later as the [[Takaki Bakery|Shunsuke Takaki]] School of Baking and Pastry. In 1993, the school opened its [[Conrad N. Hilton]] Library and began offering bachelor's degree programs. In 1995, the school's first branch campus opened, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Greystone]] in St. Helena, California. In 1998, the Student Recreation Center was opened.[[File:Culinary Institute of America (276631101).jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|alt=A four-story Neocolonial brick building|Roth Hall, the primary facility at the school's Hyde Park campus]] The Apple Pie Bakery Café opened in 2000, and the [[Colavita]] Center opened the following year. More residence halls were built at the school's Hyde Park campus in 2004. In 2005, Anton Plaza opened in Hyde Park while the Ventura Center for Menu Research and Development opened in St. Helena. On April 23, 2008, the school's teachers' union approved a vote of no confidence regarding CIA president [[L. Timothy Ryan|Tim Ryan]], the result was 85 to 9 against him. A thirteen-item list of complaints included outdated technology, poor-quality classes, and bad dining hall meals. Ryan later met with union representatives and described coming improvements in scheduling and curriculum. Immediately after the faculty's vote of no confidence, the board of trustees unanimously voted in support of Ryan and extended his contract. In the course of the controversy, the school prevented the campus newspaper, ''La Papillote'', from writing about the issue, which prompted its editor to resign. Administrators later apologized and reportedly allowed a full report in the paper's next issue. The school's third campus opened in 2008 in San Antonio. Two years later, the CIA opened a campus in Singapore consisting of a facility on the campus of [[Temasek Polytechnic]]. In 2012, the CIA began offering a bachelor's degree program in culinary science, and in 2014 introduced a bachelor's degree in applied food studies. On April 23, 2013, about 90 students held a [[walkout]] to protest declining educational standards. In 2015, the college expanded its recreation center and added a new dining facility for students, called The Egg; both are housed in the CIA's Student Commons building. In the same year, the college acquired a portion of [[Copia (museum)|Copia]], a museum in downtown [[Napa, California]] that operated from 2001 to 2008. On September 27, 2015, the Culinary Craft Association (CCA), a union at the school, protested the CIA's outsourcing of jobs. The school had allegedly demanded that union workers cut ties other unions in order to keep their jobs. In 2016, the college opened a campus, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Copia]], which houses the CIA's new Food Business School. The college, which was outgrowing its St. Helena campus, purchased the northern portion of the Copia property for $12.5 million. On September 22, 2017, CCA held another protest about planned layoffs. In 2018, the CIA launched a Bachelor of Science degree program in Hospitality Management and introduced master's-level education with a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Food Business. In 2019, the college began offering a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Wine Management. Main article: History of the Culinary Institute of America The New Haven Restaurant Institute was founded by New Haven attorney Frances Roth and Katharine Angell on May 22, 1946 in New Haven, Connecticut as a vocational training school for returning World War II veterans.[1] It was the first culinary college in the United States.[2] With assistance from Yale University, the school purchased the Davies mansion in New Haven's Prospect Hill neighborhood.[1][3] The first class consisted of sixteen students and the faculty included a dietitian, a baker, and a chef. In 1947 the school was renamed the Restaurant Institute of Connecticut to reflect its growing repute; the school's name was changed again to the Culinary Institute of America in 1951.[4] Enrollment grew to approximately 1,000 students by 1969, beyond the capacity of its original campus, so the school purchased the St. Andrew-on-Hudson Jesuit novitiate in Hyde Park, New York in 1970.[1] In 1971, the college began awarding associate degrees, and opened its doors in Hyde Park in the following year. From 1974 to 1979, the school built three residence halls, a culinary library, a career planning center, and a learning resources center. From 1982 to 1984, the American Bounty and Caterina de' Medici Restaurants and St. Andrew's Café opened. In 1984, the school's continuing education center (later named the J. Willard Marriott Education Center) opened, and the school improved its teaching kitchens and constructed an experimental kitchen and food laboratory. In 1990, the school opened a baking and pastry facility, named two years later as the Shunsuke Takaki School of Baking and Pastry. In 1993, the school opened its Conrad N. Hilton Library and began offering bachelor's degree programs. In 1995, the school's first branch campus opened, the Culinary Institute of America at Greystone in St. Helena, California. In 1998, the Student Recreation Center was opened. The Apple Pie Bakery Café opened in 2000, and the Colavita Center opened the following year. More residence halls were built at the school's Hyde Park campus in 2004. In 2005, Anton Plaza opened in Hyde Park while the Ventura Center for Menu Research and Development opened in St. Helena. On April 23, 2008, the school's teachers' union approved a vote of no confidence regarding CIA president Tim Ryan, the result was 85 to 9 against him.[10] A thirteen-item list of complaints included outdated technology, poor-quality classes, and bad dining hall meals. Ryan later met with union representatives and described coming improvements in scheduling and curriculum.[11] Immediately after the faculty's vote of no confidence, the board of trustees unanimously voted in support of Ryan and extended his contract.[10] In the course of the controversy, the school prevented the campus newspaper, La Papillote, from writing about the issue, which prompted its editor to resign. Administrators later apologized and reportedly allowed a full report in the paper's next issue.[11] The school's third campus opened in 2008 in San Antonio. Two years later, the CIA opened a campus in Singapore consisting of a facility on the campus of Temasek Polytechnic. In 2012, the CIA began offering a bachelor's degree program in culinary science, and in 2014 introduced a bachelor's degree in applied food studies.[4] On April 23, 2013, about 90 students held a walkout to protest declining educational standards.[12] In 2015, the college expanded its recreation center and added a new dining facility for students, called The Egg; both are housed in the CIA's Student Commons building. In the same year, the college acquired a portion of Copia, a museum in downtown Napa, California that operated from 2001 to 2008. On September 27, 2015, the Culinary Craft Association (CCA), a union at the school, protested the CIA's outsourcing of jobs. The school had allegedly demanded that union workers cut ties other unions in order to keep their jobs.[13][14] In 2016, the college opened a campus, the Culinary Institute of America at Copia, which houses the CIA's new Food Business School.[5] The college, which was outgrowing its St. Helena campus, purchased the northern portion of the Copia property for $12.5 million.[6] On September 22, 2017, CCA held another protest about planned layoffs.[15][14][16] In 2018, the CIA launched a Bachelor of Science degree program in Hospitality Management[7] and introduced master's-level education with a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Food Business.[8] In 2019, the college began offering a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Wine Management.[9] References ^ a b c d e f g h i Cite error: The named reference Schiff was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference first was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Yale was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c d e f Cite error: The named reference OurStory was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Copia was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference CIAbuys was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Hosp2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Masters was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference MastersWine was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c d Cite error: The named reference CHE was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c d Cite error: The named reference 2008protest was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b Cite error: The named reference ExpcProtest was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b Cite error: The named reference CCA2015 was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b c d Cite error: The named reference CCA2017b was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b Cite error: The named reference CCA2017a was invoked but never defined (see the help page). ^ a b Cite error: The named reference CCA2017c was invoked but never defined (see the help page). The sources are all named in the live article but I have not included the full citations here due to the mixture of citation formats used.

I think that WP:STRUCTURE supports this, particularly where STRUCTURE says "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents… Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other." Labor disputes aren't inherently negative, but I think separating them into a Criticism section makes that content less encyclopedic than if it were included at the appropriate place in the History section.

This is also consistent with the essay WP:NOCRIT, which makes similar arguments, though I recognize that essays are not policy.

I hope that clarifies what I was/am hoping to accomplish and offers an acceptable placement of the text. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 16:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I dropped a {{huh}} tag in the Organization section, because I found the wording clunky and unhelpful. I've copied the sentence I placed it in below.

There is proportionately a large number of departments, [sic] for operating various functions related to foodservice classes and restaurants.

I really only think we need a clarification on the first part of the sentence (before the comma), but once we have a clarification we should probably reword the whole thing to be more easy to read. Unfortunately, the cited source is a study the school did of itself, and I suspect (based on the "via CIA Archives and Special Collections" tag that one would only be able to access the source itself from one of the Culinary's campuses, possibly only the main Hyde Park one. In effect I'm asking, "proportionally to what?" Hamtechperson 01:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]