I resigned the flag in January after a number of users complained about my behavioral issues [1]. I guess I know now how to deal with these issues (I had a bad incident two weeks ago and I have learned from it), and anyway I am not active at AN / ANI / wikidata-related discussions. However, users keep referring to me as if I have lost the flag for cause, and promise desysop procedures minutes after I get it back. I do not think these accusations are in any way justified, but I also can not stay with an undetermined status. Can I please have my flag back. After a transient period waiting for desysop procedures to run, I will continue doing what I was doing before (mainly RFPP and CfD). Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:18, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Closing

3 days have passed and it's time for this to end. There has been lots of discussion of a difficult decision and I thank people that it has been remarkably cool and sensible. There have been good arguments on both sides but both Deskana and I find there's enough consensus among us to flip the bit, especially after Useight's last comments. I think the Crats and community need to work on enhancing our documentation, particularly, as Xeno points out, gaps between instructions and policy. Ymblanter, I'd gently suggest that you reflect on the volume of opposition and why it has been levelled at them from seasoned and sensible contributors. I'd add that it's important to do this even if this does not go to an Arbcom case. I'm going to give you back the mop - please bear it well. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:41, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you and everybody participating in this discussion. I got a lot of useful feedback which I will obviously need to take into account. May I also please suggest that users having issues with my actions (which I obviously expect would not happen, but shit sometimes still happens with all of us) would start with visiting my user talk page. It (almost) never happened in the past, and if it did, many things could have gone differently. Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:48, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

(Mostly) Crat discussion

Dweller commented below: I see no reason not to restore the bit, subject to our usual 24 hour wait period, so about 20 hours from now. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC) —DoRD (talk)​ 19:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I've read everything posted below and while I recognise that there was criticism of the user around the time of his passing up the mop, I currently see no impediment to WP:RESYSOP. I'll take another look in the morning, my time, in case I've overlooked something or there's some new evidence. Happy to hear from other crats, too. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:52, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

• We should extend the waiting period by an extra 24 hours to allow a chance for comments from more bureaucrats.
• Desysoping is within the scope of Arbcom and I don't want to go with a decision similar to a desysop by way of resignation + unclear weather report.
• My overall impression is that maybe a desysoping would have occurred had there not been an resignation... or maybe a firm admonishment. Depends on who the arbs were/are.
• We don't desysop people for using the term "asshole". It's decidedly not nice when used as a direct personal attack, though. Nor do we usually desysop an admin for being an asshole although someone would likely fail RfA for being an asshole.
• Commons and ENWP are really different beasts. A lot of users who are banned here or are otherwise in poor standing do fine over there.
• There are some very strongly expressed opinions in the discussion thread regarding that we should't resysop here. I would recommend those with such opinions to actually consider filing an arb case (no need to wait for crats to make their minds up).
• On clouds: makes more sense when it's an open and shut case. Admin wheel wars, resigns before arb case. Admin goes on wikibreak (no ANI threads), comes back later. When it's in between, I feel it's somewhat akin to crats ruling to desysop. If we, as crats, were to rule on a desysop like that, I'd rather do that by way of a more formal process, similar to an arb case. But that's not been defined as part of the job by the community. So I'd err on resysoping someone who may or may not be or been have desysoping by arbcom and let arbcom deal with desysoping if they so choose. Maxim_(talk) 01:33, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  @Maxim: Without commenting on the others, I disagree with your last point in particular. Obviously the community does not allow us to stand in for ArbCom and stand in judgment over resigned administrators. But I don't think that means our job is just to return the tools absent evidence of the worst kind of misconduct. The community has authorised us only to return the tools in uncontroversial circumstances. So I'd err the other way. If not relatively uncontroversial, I think RfA is the way to go. WJBscribe (talk) 01:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Maxim that ensuring there is sufficient time to evaluate this request is appropriate. There has been no question of identity or inactivity raised, so the only matter I see needing evaluation is if the resignation was for the purpose, or with the effect, of evading scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions. Community commentary towards that point is welcome below. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:10, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm happy to wait another 24 hours, but I'm clear that the overnight contributions have not shown evidence that our bright lines were crossed to the extent that we should refuse a resysop. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Pinging Crats active in July 2018: Wizardman, Warofdreams, Nihonjoe, MBisanz, Deskana, Avraham, Acalamari, 28bytes. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:RESYSOP: "Check their talk page history and any pertinent discussions or noticeboards for indications that they may have resigned (or become inactive) for the purpose, or with the effect, of evading scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions," which has footnote #6: "an administrator who requests desysopping while an arbitration case or a request for arbitration is pending against him or her will be deemed to have left under circumstances of controversy, unless the Arbitration Committee decides otherwise, for purposes of applying this rule."

Now, that reads to me that if the admin resigns during an ArbCom case there is definitely a "cloud," but that does not mean if and only if. That there could be a cloud without an ArbCom case. So the question remains as to whether or not this particular situation is to be considered "under a cloud." To me the text "may have resigned (or become inactive) for the purpose, or with the effect, of evading scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions" is where everything hinges. What we know is that Ymblanter did resign after some complaints. Was the resignation related to those complaints? It may have been. Would that scrutiny, had it continued, led to sanctions? "Sanctions", of course, broadly construed to encompass more than just a desysop - it could be any sanction. To me, it makes for a low bar of what "under a cloud" is. Unfortunately, I can't know exactly what would result in "sanctions" and what wouldn't. If the scrutiny continued and an ArbCom case was made, would ArbCom accept the case and give sanctions? I don't know. The wording in the policy includes "could have led to sanctions" but I would need ArbCom to say, "Yeah, that could have" or "No, that couldn't have" for me to know for sure, but I'm not afforded that luxury. Ergo, I would take the conservative approach and decline to resysop, but I could understand the opposite viewpoint, because having a low bar for "under a cloud" could easily result in false positives. Useight (talk) 16:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello Useight I agree that the "sanctions" element could be any sanction, not just desysoping. I think some sort of sanction was possible, however I'm still determining if the resignation meets the "evading scrutiny" trigger or not. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

After reviewing this discussion and the ANI discussion, I've come to the following conclusions:

• A lot of people are concerned about incivility on the part of Ymblanter. Based on reading some of the discussions, I think they are justified in that.
• There was no evidence presented (as far as I could tell) of any policy violations beyond violating WP:CIVIL.
• I could find no evidence of any Arbcom discussion specifically about Ymblanter (doing a search of the archives).
• In the desysop request, Ymblanter stated: I consistently got signals that some users do not trust me as administrator. and I do not feel I have sufficient community support to remain administrator

Looking through the criteria for resysopping, I find the following:

1. Former admin/account not compromised? Y
2. Resigned to avoid possible sanctions due to their actions? ?
3. Waited the required 24 hours after request? Y
4. Not inactive for 3 years or more? Y
5. Not administratively inactive for 5 years or more? Y
6. List at WP:RESYSOPS if bit restored? Not relevant to this discussion yet.

So, the only one in question is whether the resignation was "under a cloud". As I interpret it, "under a cloud" is more whether a desysopping was imminent based on the various discussions. There was one discussion filed at the end of October 2017 where Fram suggested desysop as a possible outcome, but the request to accept the case was declined on 27 November 2017 with no specific Arbcom sanction comments or decisions directed toward Ymblanter in the closing decision). Therefore, I can see no specific evidence that a desysopping action was imminent, and so there was no "cloud". I therefore recommend returning the bit. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe: the other principal being referenced here is the "under circumstances of controversy" statement from the 2009 Scientology ArbCom case - however I'm not confident that this principal has been codified in to general policy. This principal is broader then the evasion of scrutiny test. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I've only spent fifteen minutes looking through this due to current workload, but my inclination is that the resignation did not take place under a cloud, by general understanding of the term; Nihonjoe summarises well. Besides, an admin resigning the bit because they do not feel able to do a good job and returning when they feel ready to seems something we should enable. Given the attention here, it's clear to me that Ymblanter is currently under scrutiny and their actions over the next period are likely to remain so, so this is not really a case of avoiding scrutiny. I support resysoping. Warofdreams talk 17:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Warofdreams: I'm leaning towards the decision that the resignation did not preclude additional scrutiny of actions to continue. Please see my note to Nihonjoe above - any thoughts on if the "controversy" test is applicable? — xaosflux ^Talk 17:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it didn't prevent additional scrutiny. It might have dissuaded complainants from bothering, although Ymblanter did make clear when they resigned that they wished to leave open a path to return without a new RfA, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. Warofdreams talk 18:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Who would pursue sanctions against someone who had resigned already? What relief could they have obtained post-resignation? I don't think ArbCom would accept a case about admin misconduct in relation to someone who had resigned just to preclude them from asking for the return of the tools (although that may become a thing if we restore them this time). WJBscribe (talk) 01:20, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

No. Broadly I agree with Useight. I have no intention of returning the tools, and would oppose other bureaucrats doing so. It is not for us to second guess what would have happened if complaints had been taking further. This is a resignation under controversial circumstances, plain and simple. Regaining the tools lies with the community through RfA, not with us. There has never been a requirement that a desysop was "imminent" and I would strongly object to adding that now. Our job as bureaucrats should be to return the tools in fairly uncontroversial circumstances, otherwise we should defer back to the community at RfA. I think it is also a mistake consider only whether a resignation was "for the purpose" of evading scrutiny, as opposed to whether it had that effect. Plainly, it seems to me that the complaints against Ymblanter would have been pursued further had he not resigned. Their ultimate outcome, I do not know. But in my view, the prevalence of those complaints regarding his conduct as an admin (reflected in the terms of his own resignation) mean that he resigned in controversial circumstances and it would be wrong of us to simply return the tools. WJBscribe (talk) 01:17, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Put a different way, someone who resigns because they "do not feel [they] have sufficient community support to remain administrator" ought to demonstrate it anew to regain the position. WJBscribe (talk) 01:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@WJBscribe: I'm leaning towards the resignation being "under circumstances of controversy" more so than evading scrutiny. That this element was held as important by the 2009 arbitration committee, but not explicitly included in the community managed policy is the only part I'm seeing as being left to interpretation. To that end I am not comfortable completing this request. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:44, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

It may not be important given your conclusion, but if the "evading scrutiny" test is applied too strictly, I'm not sure it would mean much. How does anything one does - short of exercising the right to vanish - avoid scrutiny on Wikipedia? In theory, any pre-resignation conduct can be pursued after someone resigns. The point is that few people will bother and that (to my mind) is the potential effect of a resignation that we need to consider, i.e. was the effect of the resignation to put people off pursuing complaints that are now stale. WJBscribe (talk) 01:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• I've read the linked threads and everyone's comments so far. I understand the concerns people have raised about Ymblanter's behavior and agree that a new RFA would be ideal given those concerns, but I think that characterizing his resignation as "under a cloud" (or "under controversial circumstances," if you prefer) is not quite accurate, at least going by how we've traditionally interpreted that. Essentially an AN/I report didn't go his way, he felt disrespected, and turned in his tools. The language he chose to use upon resigning (i.e. regarding a perceived lack of community confidence in his adminning) doesn't trigger a cloud, in my view. That's not to say this is an easy call: there are compelling arguments being made on both sides. But ultimately if he wants his admin bit without a new RFA, I believe he's entitled to it. If it's granted I hope he will take everyone's concerns to heart. 28bytes (talk) 07:17, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• A couple of additional points:

• Determining that Ymblanter is eligible for resysopping under current policy (as seems likely at this point) does not mean that we necessarily think his behavior immediately prior to his resignation was optimal, or even acceptable. Our job as 'crats is generally not to evaluate admin-appropriate behavior; that's the community's job (when evaluating candidates at RFA) and ArbCom's (when considering the behavior of admins.)
• Resysopping Ymblanter does not mean all previously expressed concerns become null and void. Indeed, anyone is free to initiate an ArbCom case request immediately after the bit is flipped laying out these concerns; you will not find bureaucrats showing up at the case request page saying "oh no, this has already been decided." Determining eligibility for automatic resysopping is, by design, a different process than determining whether sanctions (including desysopping) are warranted for suboptimal behavior.
• (As an aside, I would suggest not immediately filing such a case request. Let's give Ymblanter a chance to take these concerns on board and see if he does so. If he does, great! If not, ArbCom will act if a solid case is made.)
• I do not think a policy change or clarification is needed. There will always be edge cases, and this is one. It's just not possible to policy-wrestle all borderline cases out of existence. It's not a bad thing to have bureaucrats and other interested community members discuss these borderline cases on this noticeboard. 28bytes (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• I've read the two threads linked here. It seems to me like Ymblanter resigned out of frustration and annoyance with the way people were treating him rather than to avoid scrutiny, and I see no evidence that any sanctions would have resulted had he not resigned. With respect to Ymblanter's resignation notice, I don't agree with WJBscribe that his resignation notice makes it a resignation under controversial circumstances. Ymblanter says he's resigning, in part, because there's "insufficient community support" for him to remain an administrator, but merely stating that doesn't make it true, it only makes it his interpretation. Looking at the discussions, I'd say that Ymblanter is wrong: there was clearly a small set of people that didn't have much confidence him, but that does not constitute "insufficient community support" to me, and Ymblanter's declaration that it does seems like a facet of his frustration. In summary, I don't see a resignation to avoid scrutiny or sanctions, so I think he fits the criteria to have his administrator rights restored. --Deskana (talk) 07:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Medical assistance is available for those who injure themselves laughing at the idea that, even when an admin himself declares that he's resigning because there's "insufficient community support" for him to remain an administrator, that's still not under a cloud, or to avoid scrutiny, because "stating that doesn't make it true". EEng 07:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• I've been following this ever since it began and have been thinking where I stand on this. At the time Ymblanter resigned, I saw his post here and thought to myself back then that the resignation was under controversial circumstances and that a new RfA would be required. After some additional thinking, I'm still of that judgment now and my thoughts are similar to WJBscribe's. Acalamari 13:13, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Current Crat Summary

• Ayes

1. Dweller
2. Maxim
3. Nihonjoe
4. Warofdreams
5. Deskana
6. 28bytes

• Noes

1. Useight
2. WJBscribe
3. Xaosflux
4. Acalamari

As of: 13:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I've [re]read everything on the page [again]. I've particularly carefully read the opinions of the Crats on the no side. WJB in particular makes some cogent arguments, as he so often does, but I remain unpersuaded. For me the lack of any sort of meaningful process likely to have ended in desysop is one part that is missing from what I'd need to be seeing. Our role here breaks down, in my mind, as follows: We must normally [inactivity aside] resysop without fuss, except that we must look for evidence that someone has gamed a community or committee process by resigning. I see complaints, I see some bad behaviour (by various users), I see some odd behaviour but I don't see something that looks like the start of what could reasonably be construed as desysop, so I think refusing this request is outside of our remit and would be stepping into Arbcom's.

That said, whatever we resolve, we must firm up our policy documentation on this once we've made a decision on this case. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:34, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@Dweller: with the latest 2 responses from Deskana an 28bytes the interpretation of those in the ayes is prevailing. I certainly agree that the resysop policy needs some improvement, notably if the "controversial" clause should be incorporated and its applicability. Suggest giving this ~12more hours for commentary before closure. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with waiting a bit longer. 12 hours more is good as it'll pick up another cycle of US daytime activity. --Dweller (talk) 12:10, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but despite being on the "Yes" side of the fence, I'm hesitant to return the rights on the basis of a 6-4 decision. This is undoubtedly a grey area, and I'm worried about making decisions based on a narrow margin. How do the other bureaucrats feel about this? --Deskana (talk) 14:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@Deskana: when I previously counted you twice I tallied us at 7/3 so the ayes were much stronger, with 6/4 we are getting back to the no-consensus range. Despite being a "no", I think some of the yes rationales are stronger arguments right now. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@Deskana: there are strong arguments either way. "This is a cloud" or "This is not a cloud" is being said by a lot of people. What I don't want is for us to lower the bar of "cloud" too low because then people would be even more hesitant to temporarily resign the bit - even for reasons such as "I'm going to be out of the country for six months on an African safari" for fear that even some minor squabble (and admins can be expected to step on some toes) might end up constituting a cloud after all and they can't get the tools back without an RFA. For that reason, I'm okay with this gray area case going "resysop" instead of "decline", but I would not be surprised if a lot of drama ensued afterwards. That being said, I still decline to flip the switch. Useight (talk) 15:34, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@Xaosflux and Useight: Thank you both, and also to @SoWhy: below. You've alleviated my concerns about this. After waiting a little bit for comments from other bureaucrafts, I'd be happy to proceed, and don't mind ticking the box myself. --Deskana (talk) 15:44, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• We need need to firm up/clarify WP:RESYSOP. I've said this before. It's an information page, not policy. Where does the "evading scrutiny" language come from? (It was added by Avraham following a comment by Newyorkbrad who was sitting on the committee at the time. He mentions a 2006 case. Does anyone know to which case he was referring? Giano perhaps?) It isn't (or shouldn't be) a bureaucrat's job to determine whether their actions at the time would (could?) have lead to sanctions. We should follow Wikipedia:Administrators#After voluntary removal (a policy page) and the arbitration rulings. These only mention resignation in "controversial circumstances". Were there controversial circumstances? (I realize this would cast a fairly wide net, but this is what the policy page says.) –xeno^talk 19:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Other discussion

(non-bureaucrat comment) Strong support. I would contest implications that Ymblanter relinquished the flag under a cloud. If there are indeed users calling for desysop, let's have a proper discussion about it and go through the process. Alex Shih (talk) 09:24, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Personally pinging active bureaucrats that has yet to comment: Wizardman, MBisanz, Avraham. I tend to agree with what Risker said about being mindful of what kind of message we are sending. Alex Shih (talk) 16:03, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Here's a link to an Arb Case from the end of last year, with relevant info. Maybe Ymblanter could fully explain this edit summary from yesterday, noting that the link to the Arb Case clearly states - "E) Editors should abide by high standards of user conduct, including remaining civil and avoiding personal attacks". Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

This is not a personal attack (it was not directed to anyone personally) and not even an incivil behavior (this is an edit summary on my talk page, in a message which only concerns myself).--Ymblanter (talk) 09:38, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say it was a personal attack, but maybe you could answer the first bit and fully explain WHY you had to resort to using that word. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure why I need to explain this.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:02, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

(non-anything comment) Agree with Alex Shih. I personally didn't think the complaints, such as they were, were resignation-worthy in the first place, but of course, it was their personal choice. The return of the tools, however, is a matter of process, and since no official complaints have ever been lodged, what obstacles, O officialdom, will ye cast?!—SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 09:36, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

No official complaints were registered because they resigned their tools. Rest assured there were plenty of complaints about their behaviour and fitness to be an administrator. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Right—so after they get the tools back, any subsequent misuse of them can be investigated. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 10:25, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Well as an editor who was the recipient of accusations of bullying by Ymblanter, who had to deal with their blatant obfuscation and deliberate refusal to answer simple questions over wikidata, if spitting the dummy after raising spurious ANI reports isnt under a cloud then its really a meaningless concept. I will quote from that discussion directly: "You must have been an entirely different editor then because you can't seem to understand what is wrong with your comments and responses now. Your total failure to communicate appropriately is a vital failure in your duty as an admin. (TheGracefulSlick)" to which the reply from Ymblanter was "At least you must be proud you have never voted for me." And this sort of interaction is standard for them. As is their abuse of other editors as can be seen in the above 'Asshole' diff. So I want it clear, if they have the tools back as a matter of process because the crats dont think their behaviour would amount to them being a process that could result in removal of their tools, then those tools are explicitly being given to someone who insults, condescends and belittles other editors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, very much so, but wasn't the ANI closed as no consensus? I can't rember the RFAR, but was'nt that declined too? all I'm sayng is, if the community (such as it is!) nor arbcom saw a case, then, well. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 13:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) My understanding of this process is that the bureaucrats only have the mandate to judge whether or not the sysop bit was removed under a cloud. The mandate to determine whether a user is fit to use the tools lies with ARBCOM. As such, any posts here complaining about Ymblanter's conduct whether before or after they resigned their tools is quite irrelevant. Only evidence showing that they resigned under a cloud would be relevant. Certainly language they used a couple of days ago on their user talk page is not germane. Vanamonde (talk) 10:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Agreed. The only question is: Was there a process in motion at the time of the desysop that might have resulted in Ymblanter losing the sysop-flag (such as it was with Andrevan for example)? If not, there is no "cloud". Regards SoWhy 11:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, the cloud over Ymblanter's lack of civility regarding WikiData and @Fram:, the related ArbCom case, this recent outburst, etc, are very worrying. I look forward to seeing exactly who he "demolishes" in the future. Basically, if this was a brand-new RfA, it would be snow close oppose. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:03, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Was there any ArbCom case against Ymblanter or in which their actions were relevant and which could have resulted in a desysop? Afaict this was not the case. That a case might have been brought forward if he hadn't resigned the bit is not sufficient to establish "cloud" imho. As Spartaz points out, assuming cloudy circumstances should be limited to clear-cut cases to avoid creating hurdles for admins to give up the mop for a time. Regards SoWhy 14:18, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Technically no, but Ymblanter did what most admins do when they're backed into a corner in a no-win situation, and resigned. Now the dust has settled, some people (thankfully not all, per below), seem to have forgotten this. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I see no reason not to restore the bit, subject to our usual 24 hour wait period, so about 20 hours from now. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

For the record, I do not mind waiting longer if a discussion is needed.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Having given up my bit during a period of personal turmoil when my judgement was impaired and successfully retrieving it when I felt better, I think its an important point that we don't create barriers that would discourage editors from acting similarly in the future. Otherwise, we simply create and environment when admins whose heads are not quite in the right place become reluctant to take a necessary break. (Obviously, this is a general comment as I have no idea whether or not this applies to Ymblanter but the general principle applies. Spartaz ^Humbug! 12:51, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

@Spartaz, this wasn't a case of resigning due to personal turmoil etc; it was a clear-cut jump-before-push resignation, stemming from this ANI thread (which in turn stemmed from this thread). ‑ Iridescent 14:41, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• (non crat comment) I agree with SoWhy. Also, I think Ymblanter was not under any cloud when he resigned. There was a small incident, but i dont think it would have resulted in him being de-sysoped. But thats my opinion. I trust the crats that they will handle the request appropriately. I came here just to say, as a common community member, i do not have any problem with him being sysop again. (I dont keep an eye on ANI, i found out about the incident after his tools were taken away special:diff/826811999.) —usernamekiran(talk) 13:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC) striked out my own comment, for now. —usernamekiran(talk) 23:40, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• (non-crat) The issue here seems to be what constitutes being under a cloud. If this is not sufficiently defined, then the crats do not have much leeway for interpretation, and may find it necessary to assume the absence of cloud until one can be shown to exist. If this happens, and there is sufficient disagreement by members of the community, then they can take whatever action they consider appropriate after the bit has been returned. Arbitration is the proper field of Arbcom. Cheers, · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 14:17, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  Thankfully Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Restoration of permissions is a bit more clear: "2. ...resigned... for the purpose, or with the effect, of evading scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions." I think there is a case to be made that Ymblanter evaded scrutiny when he resigned; however, I don't see an indication that he would have been desysopped or seriously sanctioned had he not done so. That said, the wording of the policy (could have led to sanctions) leans on the side of caution, so I could understand the argument against automatic resysop in this case. -- Ajraddatz (talk)

• I appreciate the bureaucrats' hands are tied, but as far as I'm concerned this was clearly under a cloud; he resigned to prevent being desopped owing to the abuse of his admin status, as documented in this ANI thread. (The thread was actually him complaining about being challenged for abuse; because of his resignation, it never got any further so the written evidence is flimsy, but most of it can be found just by ctrl-f'ing his name at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 202#RfC: Linking to wikidata. I wasn't involved in either thread in any way—other than a single vote in the RFC and a passing comment that we rarely include links to Commons in article body text—before anyone tries accusing me of being WP:INVOLVED.)

  For those who aren't aware, this resysop request isn't a genuine "I'm feeling better and I'm ready to help", it's a WP:POINT exercise arising from criticism of Ymblanter and his supporters at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard#What appears to be an inappropriate indef block of User:Rowan Forest and Commons:Administrators' noticeboard#EEng and canvassing. As a heads-up to the crats and arbs, if this request is granted then as soon as I see any more of the bullying, blustering, and general "I'm an admin, that means policy doesn't apply to me and I can do whatever I like" attitude that caused Ymblanter to resign in the first place, I'll be off to Arbcom with a formal desysop motion (assuming Fram doesn't beat me to it). ‑ Iridescent 14:41, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  There is no abuse of admin status in the linked thread. There were concerns whether my behavior is appropriate for an administrator, and I do not see how the thread could have resulted in a desysop.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:50, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  It is of course up to you to go to ArbCom once I get the bit back.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:51, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  Ymblanter, there's clearly documented evidence of you abusing your position and saying that the admin bit meant your opinions were more worthwhile than those of other editors. Incidentally, as nobody else seems to have mentioned it, just to point out that it's less than three weeks since you were making comments like "I will demolish you next time you are in trouble. Because you have just proven that your promises are worth of exactly one pound of dogshit". Bluntly, the only way you're going to get the admin bit is if you bluster your way here at BN into getting the 'crats to unilaterally restore it, since someone coming to RFA or in front of Arbcom with a record like yours would be lucky to avoid an indefblock once your history came under scrutiny, let alone any advanced permissions. ‑ Iridescent 14:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  Great. It is definitely your right to think that I should be indefblocked. I do not think you are in a majotiry though.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  Greater yet if you didn't resume the problematic aspect of your past behavior qua admin (described and linked to in this thread). Then nobody will have to report you anywhere and, more importantly, your having the tools will be a net-benefit to the encyclopedia. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  That↑; note that I said if I see any more of the bullying, blustering, and general "I'm an admin, that means policy doesn't apply to me and I can do whatever I like" attitude. If there's no bullying or abuse, then you've nothing to worry about. Based on past performance I'd estimate the likelihood of that at roughly zero, but WP:AGF and all that. ‑ Iridescent 15:05, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  (ec) I think my strategy would be just not to ever respond to a number of users, some of whom are in this thread, because this is exclusively what lead to this problematic behavior, and nothing good ever came out of it. This was also the advise I got from some users I respect, and I regret to not have followed it two weeks ago.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:06, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• I suppose, all things being equal, and with due regard to AGF, that an unspoken concern might be that, as a hypothetical chain of events- >involvement in big argument at Commons AN- >You stating that t I am not happy with a large amount of users clearly coming here from en.wp who are all voting support- >you regain your tools on en-wp, and- >you then use your tools aganst those heer who, in your view, caused unnecessary trouble on Commons. However: It strikes me that a) you probably know this already, and b) it would be so bloody obvious that, in the vernacular, your feet wouldn't touch the ground. But that's in a dystopian future, this is now, and I don't think it does us much good to speculate. Just to await the results as they come in. If, of course they ever do. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 15:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  I see that it might be a concern, but I have been admin here for several years, I was I believe in the 100 most active admins of all times or so, and I have never used tools against anybody with whom I disagreed, with the exception of vandals and newly created disruptive users.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Ymblanter, I have no personal issue with you, and no criticism of your use of the tools, but you do have a history of not handling criticism gracefully. If you have indeed learned how to better handle these situations, this would be a fine place to demonstrate those skills. Or just go away and wait to see what happens. I will also suggest that if you make yourself open to recall, with a limitation of a period of at least 3 months before a recall can be initiated, it might go some way towards showing that you mean what you say, and give you 3 months to show that you can do it. Cheers, · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 15:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  When I ran RFA, I said that I do not need to be open for recall, since once I feel that there is a large group of users unhappy with my administrative activities I would resign. This is precisely what I did in January. I kind of thought it would be taken positively, thet I can keep to my words. Apparently, by these very users it was taken as a sign of weakness and that I was avoiding scrutiny. Fine, I can put myself open to recall, but we already have at least one user who promised to take me to ArbCom minutes after I get the flag back - what would be the point of being open to recall in this situation? Though, sure, if a group of users becomes again unhappy with my administrative activities, I will resign - well, we can formalize it as a promise to be open to recall say in three months. I heed community support for being administrator, and I do not see any point of remaining administrator without a community support.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:42, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  A formal promise to be open to recall is not really a formal anything since there is no formal recall process. Leaky Caldron 16:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  I can't find the words "recall" or "resign" in your request for administrative privileges, so I'm not sure what you promised at the time. (I imagine, though, if you used a word similar to resign, it would have been interpreted as a relinquishing of administrative privileges effective until you successfully passed another RfA.) Given that you felt in January that the community no longer supported your having administrative privileges, is your current request due to your feeling that the level of community support has changed now, because you feel you misjudged the level of support that was present then and now (something easily done in the midst of contentious events), or something else? isaacl (talk) 16:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  Ymblanter, if you're going to tell lies then your own resysop request is probably not the best place to be doing it. Do you have a diff for we already have at least one user who promised to take me to ArbCom minutes after I get the flag back, or are you making it up in the hope of playing the martyr? I'm assuming the latter, since I'm sure if anyone had made such a promise it would be evidence in your favor, as it would mean you were telling the truth in implying that you're being subjected to unfair treatment. (What you do have is a promise from me that I'll be filing an arb case against you should I see a pattern of abuse from you following any resysopping. In my personal opinion, the likelihood that you'll go back to conduct unbecoming is high enough to make a subsequent case near-inevitable, but I assume you aren't promising that if and when you're granted the admin bit you'll carry on with the inappropriate behavior.) ‑ Iridescent 16:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  I actually meant this diff. Are you saying I interpreted it incorrectly, and you meant that not you will initiate desysop proceedings minutes after I get the bit back, but somebody else? That's possible, but probably needs to be clarified.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  Yes you are right Isaacl, I want through the whole nomination page, and I do not see the statement. It is also not on the talk page. I must have done it about the time of nomination elsewhere, but now I will obviously not be able to find it. therefore I have striken out this part of my statement as factually incorrect. I apologize for that. However, this is how I felt all the time, from my first day here, and this is how I still feel. Concerning your second question, I feel I misjudged the level of support in January (though it might have gone down since January, but I do not have a good feeling for this, since I obviously did not use my admin bit).--Ymblanter (talk) 18:56, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  If you truly see no point of being an administrator without community support, as you say, there's a way to prove definitively whether you have it. —Cryptic 00:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) The simplest solution here is for Ymblanter to voluntarily file a new WP:RFA. Apart from the comments of Iridescent and Lugnuts (and Lugnuts' valid concerns regarding this diff are technically out of scope), I don't see support to force a re-confirmation vote; but I do feel it would set a good precedent for the community. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
  • While there are plenty more comments opposing a re-sysop, I don't see stronger arguments. As NeilN notes below, the only possible "cloud" appears to come from this diff. A resignation based on that seems more like an over-reaction to mild criticism than an attempt to avoid scrutiny. If there are other diffs from before January 18, please provide them. While it would avoid a significant amount of drama for Ymblanter to re-RFA, I still don't see any reason for bureaucrats to deny this request. power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• I suggest we hat the above discussion, which perhaps I am partially guilty of starting, and actually—radical!—give the crats their board back and hear from them, collectively. Notwithstanding future RfAs, most of the discussion here is around what might have happened in the past, what's happened elsewhere, and what might happen in the future; none of which seems to have uncovered anything useful. Actually, the simplest solution would be to resysop and then haulage to Arbcom if it goes pear-shaped. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 19:29, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• New RFA please - this is relevant. Please don't re-sysop, Ymblanter resigned before being desysopped per this [2]. That doesn't happen without good reason. Black Kite (talk) 22:50, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• This really does require a new RfA. The way that this request arose from the dispute at Commons reflects very badly on this request. And to parse the previous step-down as not under a cloud is being too literal by far: the request statement itself is based upon the acknowledgement that there were problems. It wasn't at all like the typical "I've decided that I don't need the tools anymore and I want some time off from being an admin." I'm pretty certain that a pro forma resysop here will lead directly to a case at ArbCom resulting in a desysop, so please spare the community from having to go through all of that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• The evidence here is quite clear that Ymblanter resigned in order to avoid scrutiny that was likely to lead to sanctions. Whether one of those sanctions would have been a desysop with requirement to file a new RfA to be resysopped, we don't and can't know, but we do know what he said, the complaints that were filed concerning what he said, and his action in response to those complaints, that is, to resign. This all adds up to a "cloud" - i.e. he did not out of the blue decide to set aside the bit for personal or professional reasons, he did so in relationship to complaints about his behavior. This is an extremely reasonable definition of what "under a cloud" means.
  Further, examination of the relevant discussions over on Commons leads one to believe that the request for getting the bit back isn't being done out of a desire to help en.wiki -- in fact, Ymblanter made some quite disparaging remarks about en.wiki in those discussions, which would certainly be held against him in a formal RfA -- but in an "I'll show you" way that is quite inappropriate for an admin.
  I urge the bureaucrats not to act precipitously here, and to take into account the opinions of admins and long-time established editors that Ymblanter should be required to undergo an RfA to recover the bit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• This is definitely under a cloud, and Ymblanter's recent behavior at Commons demonstrates that nothing has changed. A resysop will doubtless be followed by either an ArbCom case or a site ban discussion on one of the noticeboards. Lepricavark (talk) 23:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose re-sysop. This definitely needs a new RfA. L293D (☎ • ✎) 00:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• I would hate to see Dweller or any other individual bureaucrat to bear the sole responsibility if the flag was restored. There is no precedent for this, but can a bureaucrat chat be opened? Exercising discretion in this kind of situation should still be within the role of the bureaucrats collectively when the community consensus is not immediately clear. Alex Shih (talk) 00:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• (non-bureaucrat comment) This is a matter for the bureaucrats to deliberate and they can handle it in any way they choose. They can certainly do this by disregarding all or any of the non bureaucrat comments at WP:BN if they wish - it's their page, their mandate, whatever comments by non bureaucrats here or at ANI may conclude. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:03, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• I don't understand your point. Of course the decision lies with the 'crats, I don't see anyone here arguing that it doesn't. Are you saying that it's not legitimate for members of the community to make their views known to them? As far as I know, there's no requirement or necessity for bureaucratic decisions to be made in a vacuum, without community input. The role of the bureaucrat is not to make decisions in "splendid isolation", or to rely only on their own feelings and those of their fellow 'crats. They should also take into account the feelings of community members.
  After all "under a cloud" is not necessarily a cut-and-dried thing, we rely on the good judgment of the bureaucrats to evaluate what is and isn't "a cloud", but they are just people with no super-powers (that I'm aware of), and people of good judgment, when called upon to make such decisions, frequently want to know how others feel about it, to inform and guide their own decision-making.
  So, what, exactly, is your point? That everyone should shut up about this issue? I'd say rather that more people should chime in, to give the bureaucrats as rounded an understanding of how the community feels as possible. Then they can make their decision taking that into account, as is proper. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• I honestly do not know whether the resignation was under a cloud. I have read all of the arguments and neither side is obviously wrong. Given the number of editors on each side, I would like to see this decided at a crat chat rather than having one crat make the decision. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:23, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• I agree. A decision made by a single bureaucrat without formal consultation between the 'crats would be the worst possible outcome, no matter which way the decision went. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• @Maxim: Regarding your sixth bullet point:

  There are some very strongly expressed opinions in the discussion thread regarding that we should't resysop here. I would recommend those with such opinions to actually consider filing an arb case (no need to wait for crats to make their minds up).

I'm not quite sure what, exactly, you mean here. If you mean that someone should file a peremptory desysop case with ArbCom before Ymblanter has been resysopped by bureaucratic action, I doubt very much that ArbCom would accept that case. I think Ymblanter would have to be resysopped and then a desysop case filed for ArbCom to even consider taking it, and that case would have to be about the complaints filed against Ymblanter just before he resigned, which are rather stale right now, so, again, there would be a prejudice against taking such a case. The only other desysopping grounds I can see is that the resysopping itself was wrong, because the standard used for "under a cloud" was incorrect -- but (as far as I know) ArbCom has no jurisdiction over bureaucratic actions, so it's unlikely they would accept a case on that basis either. So, unless I'm misunderstanding (which is certainly possible) I don't think that bulllet point is particularly helpful to anyone opposed to Ymblanter being resysopped. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• I would suggest that 'under a cloud' should be a very low bar and the wording of the policy seems to bear that out. A resysop should be uncontroversial and one would be so if the tools were resigned when an administrator's behavior and suitability was not the subject of an ongoing controvercy ie the community's confidence in the administrator was not being activly called into question.
  In this instance that is not the case; in fact the lack of confidence of a significant body of editors was cited in the desysop request and there was ongoing discussion of Ymblanter's behavior at the time of his desysop request that was, at least in part, curtailed as a result of him turning in his tools. That he made a point of claiming that the desysop was not 'under a cloud' in the original request leads me to believe he recognized others would see it as being 'under a cloud' and wanted to pre-empt those claims. Jbh ^Talk 03:27, 11 July 2018 (UTC) PS. Footnote #6 of RESYSOP uses the phrase "under circumstances of controversy". Last edited: 05:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• Of course it's under a cloud. The very fact that Ymblanter can apparently, with a straight face, suggest that it's not is in and of itself evidence of his abysmal judgment and unfitness to be an admin.

If your fitness is being questioned you have two choices: stick around and see the process through, or leave under a cloud; there's no middle ground. It's not like there's ever some urgent need to resign. Wait until it's over and if you survive, then resign if you want; if you don't survive, well then you've been saved the trouble of resigning.

If your fitness is being questioned and you have the decency to spare the community the trouble of deciding whether to desysop you, then we appreciate the gesture, but that doesn't buy you a free pass later as if nothing happened. EEng 03:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• There should be a new RfA so the community can decide. Jonathunder (talk) 04:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• This is basically Gaming the system. Ymblanter resigned to avoid a desysop and now he wants to come back like nothing happened? If he is just given back his admin status, we're setting a very bad precedent. It would give people a reason to continue with desyop cases even after the person resigned. I don't see how that would be beneficial. I only have had one interaction with ymblanter and it wasn't positive, so I'd definitely would have to question his temperament to be an admin. Regardless, the only fair way of dealing with his request is to make him have another RFA. If he has behaved appropriately as an admin, he should have no problem passing another RFA. Although, I don't want to start an off-topic discussion here, we should seriously consider changing the system. Rather than just simply being "admin for life", admins should have to go through re-certification votes periodically. Doing so would probably eliminate 80-90% of the admin abuse complaints we have.--Rusf10 (talk) 04:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• @Maxim: I think that you're misreading the "under a cloud" part of WP:RESYSOP, as quoted by Xaosflux: the situation could have led to sanctions and that matches criterion #2 as worded. You don't need to decide that there would have been sanctions, just that it was a reasonable possibility. Similarly, the criterion #2 footnote implies that the appropriate standard is whether they left under circumstances of controversy. From your comment (2nd, 3rd, and final bullet points) I think you're focusing too much on what the outcome would have been, which I agree this isn't the place to evaluate. In other words, a case of "resignation + unclear weather report" would indeed be sufficient justification to decline a resysop, as long as you think a desysop (or other sanction) was a plausible outcome. This is also consistent with the idea (as codified in the footnote) that resigning while an Arb case is pending constitutes "under a cloud" by default, even though it might very well have closed without action. Sunrise (talk) 05:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Let me comment again on this, since multiple people suggest I lie, I was gaming the system, and/or I resigned in view of an immediate desysop. Well, I never lie. I never ever lie. I do sometimes have communication problems, and this one (to be cited as "the link" is a clear example - which sometimes led people to believe I lied. But still, I never lie. This is very important for me. Second, nobody ever demonstrated that I misused the tools - meaning, for example, blocked someone in a COI, or protected an article in a COI, or whatever. During the whole time, only a few of the thousands of my administrative actions were contested. So essentially we are discussing not what I have done with the tools but what I said. Now, concerning "the link" - prior to what happened, an ArbCom was filed against me -- for the first time in my life here. I thought it has no merit, and it was indeed resolved by motion in which all administrators were reminded to remain civil and obey the policies - with which I obviously agree. On the aftermath of these Wikidata discussions I has a clash with Fram, which resulted in me going to ANI ("the link"). I actually can not recollect until today being dragged to AN or ANI with the exception of a couple of POV pushers who got boomerang-blocked. If we go to "the link" we see that a number of users have strong opinions, but I do not see anybody suggesting a second Arb case. I resigned because I thought these opinions were too many (and I believe now I underestimated my support), however, I did not reasonably believe at the time, and I do not believe now, that if I stayed admin a desysop case would be filed against me on the basis of what I have done/said at the moment. Well, I see here that many users do not want me to be administrator, and this is unfortunate, if I get the tools I obviously will have to deal with that, but I felt necessary to make this statement.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I never ever lie. Of course you do. Everybody lies sometimes. "You look great in that dress." "No, I'm not upset." "Yes, everything's fine." "I meant to take the garbage out but I forgot." What planet are you from? EEng 06:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, no, I do not. I even get issues about that with my parents who expect to hear smth and sometimes do not. My wife already got used to it.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Here, pass this on to your wife and see if she gets the humor in it: It is more grueling to live with a saint than to be one. You still haven't answered the question: what planet are you from? EEng 13:10, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Just to clarify: while the above is presented in my patented "humorous" style (note the quote marks), it makes a completely serious point: someone who claims (or even worse, actually believes) that he "never lies" evinces a disconnect from the reality of human experience so severe that it disqualifies him from any position of trust, particularly one in which he's expected to evaluate the actions and motives of others. EEng 13:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I can not help you here. If I am denied resysop on this ground let it be. You are welcome to suggest a policy amendment in the meanwhile though, for example that someone who never lies can not be administrator.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

QED. EEng 13:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

This childish bickering reflects poorly on you. --Deskana (talk) 06:58, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

It's true, YMblanter, this childish bickering reflects poorly on you. EEng 07:20, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, and my statement is that I have not given the bit in order to avoid scrutiny. That was not at all my motivation.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support resysop--Wot SN54129 sez:--Notwithstanding future RfAs, most of the discussion here is around what might have happened in the past, what's happened elsewhere, and what might happen in the future; none of which seems to have uncovered anything useful. Actually, the simplest solution would be to resysop and then haulage to Arbcom if it goes pear-shaped. I see zero relevance in the commons-stuff and I don't believe an Arbcom-case will lead to anything more than an admonishment, despite the verbosity and vocal strength of a particularly-oriented Wikidata camp.That being said, YmB ought to handle criticism much better.∯WBG^converse 05:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

On that logic, there is no need for the RfA process for anyone. Just give an editor the admin rights, without process, and wait until they mess up. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 10:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

You are comparing an admin requesting the return of the toools with a new editor asking for the first time...? Err...right. I note the ironly in your call upon logic :D —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 10:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Who said anything about a new editor? Use the example of Little Johnny has been an editor for a long time, who might have made some mistakes in the past, and might do something bad in the future. But they've been around long enough to know how things work. No need for an RfA! Straight to admin for you. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Little Johnny huh. He may be some seriously big-time syndicate mouthpiece  :) but not on en-wp. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 14:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support resysop I'm not in love with Ymblanter's behavior, but there's no atypical cloud here. If bureaucrats are unsure of a decision, they should probably crat-chat. Inviting the public to comment, all in good faith of course, is irrelevant here, when the crats are here to do the job. If we want discussions, perhaps opening a crat-chat and publicising the same in the same way one would publicise an RfA, might be a good option. Lourdes 10:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• Commenting narrowly: The bureaucrats will do what they will when it comes to a determination of a "cloud". As a group, they tend to be very reluctant to deny a resysop request, so I think the Committee's approach to arbitration should be robust to mistakes in determining whether an administrator's resignation had the effect of dodging scrutiny. If an administrator resigns and is later resysopped despite there being substantial concerns about their behavior (administrative or otherwise) prior to their resignation, I would view their actions immediately prior to the resignation as being "fresh" for the purposes of arbitration. I would not decline such an arbitration case request as "stale", because to do so would effectively allow administrators to dodge community concern by resigning if bureaucrats later found them not to be under a cloud. Further, if an administrator resigned immediately prior to a likely arbitration case request, I would encourage that case request to proceed, so the Arbitration Committee has the opportunity to designate their resignation as "under a cloud" by motion while the conduct is still recent. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• xaosflux says we are invited to determine if the bit was given up "for the purpose, or with the effect, of evading scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions." Personally I have no reason to question Ymblanter's judgment or capability as an administrator, but I do believe that the bit was given up during those discussions to evade the kind of scrutiny that could have led to sanctions, yes. Drmies (talk) 14:28, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  @Drmies: the determination part is what us 'crats have to decide - but I am certainly welcome to community input to ensure we have all the right information to proceed. Just clarifying that I was not asking for any sort of "vote" by the community on this question. Thank you for your feedback. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  I'm feeling you, Xaosflux--good luck with it. This may not be an easy call. Drmies (talk) 14:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  It's worth noting that you're answering a more difficult question than needed, Drmies. It's extremely hard to say whether Ymblanter intended to evade scrutiny. Luckily, we don't have to answer that. The policy states they should not be resysopped if their resignation had the effect of evading scrutiny, which is perhaps an easier question to answer, since it doesn't delve into motivations at all. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  Ha, I thought about commenting on that in the first place, and so now I will: I believe that was the intent, and I think it was pretty clear that was the effect. :) Drmies (talk) 14:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  Without commenting on the specifics of this case (I'm only familiar with the ANI thread I closed, not anything else), I think it is useful to view WP:RESYSOP in terms of WP:ADMINACCT: did the resignation have the impact of making it so an admin was no longer accountable for his actions (either through a case request or other community review?) If the answer is yes then RESYSOP would have it be "under a cloud" if the answer is no then it isn't cloudy. I disagree with what I think Maxim's implication is that the crats are being asked to determine if ArbCom would desysop. That's not the relevant question: the question is if the community was prevented from holding the admin to reasonable scrutiny by the resignation. That's my 2¢ for what it is worth. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  @TonyBallioni, did the resignation have the impact of making it so an admin was no longer accountable for his actions isn't actually all that relevant. WP:RESYSOP is by necessity an executive summary of policy, not the policy itself. The process as currently used derives from a 2009 ruling by Arbcom, and is the much broader Users who give up their administrator (or other) privileges and later request the return of those privileges may have them restored upon request, provided they did not give them up under circumstances of controversy. Users who give up privileges under controversial circumstances must go through the normal channels (such as a Request for adminship) to regain them. Determining whether an administrator resigned under controversial circumstances is, in most cases, in the discretion of the bureaucrats. Obviously, "given up for the purpose of evading scrutiny" is prima facie evidence of "controversial circumstances" and makes the closing crat's life easier, but the controversy could theoretically be entirely unintentional but would still exist. If we don't consider a resignation in which the desysop request began In the past few months, I consistently got signals that some users do not trust me as administrator. It was particularly prominent yesterday, when an ANI topic was speedy closed with a consensus that it is ok to tell me that I do not know what I am talking about, and when later an admin wrote in a casual conversation (not with me) that I must be "shown the door". In this situation, given the absence of instruments which provide proper feedback to administrators, I do not feel I have sufficient community support to remain administrator. to be "controversial circumstances", then I'm at a loss to consider what would be; a resysop in these circumstances wouldn't be applying the rules conservatively, as some have stated above, it would be the bureaucrats unilaterally overturning an Arbcom ruling and daring the community to challenge them. ‑ Iridescent 15:17, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  ​Thanks for your usual institutional knowledge. Based on that ArbCom principle, I would agree with your reading of the resignation. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  One thing I'd say, though, is that what Ymnblanter says, and his perception of the situation is the equivalent of a primary source: we don't actually know that his understanding of what was actually happening is a reflection of the circumstances. I mean; Nixon thought that the president of Otis Elevators was out to get him—but no-one takes that as a historical source on the role of CEOs! As NeilN points out, the question is whether other people were saying the same things; well—that's the secondary source. And, although irl jurisdiactions vary, it's generally deemed ill-advised to base a convicton upon just a confession  :) —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 15:31, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  I don't. If a couple months go by without someone telling me that I'm a disgrace as an admin and should resign then I probably haven't been that active here. I'm aware of this criticism. Does this mean any potential future resignations will be under controversial circumstances? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:35, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  @NeilN: If said criticism becomes significant enough that you "do not feel [you] have sufficient community support to remain administrator" and as a result resign, then yes. That would signify the criticism either rises above or is by the resigning sysop perceived to rise above the usual level of criticism admins—especially admins willing to make difficult decisions—sadly have to deal with. It's not the existence of criticism in and of itself that makes this (at least, in my opinion) controversial. There'll probably always be people willing to take sysops to task over any (perceived) wrongdoing, whether rightfully or not. That's not a reliable sign said sysop is doing anything wrong any more than being the target of a personal attack is a reliable sign of said targetted editor (sysop or otherwise) doing something wrong. Rather, what makes it controversial to me is the cited absence of sufficient community support to remain administrator. Now, is it possible that Ymblanter perceived that to be the case while in fact still having more than sufficient community support? Certainly. The only way to tell for sure, however, would be a reconfirmation RfA. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 22:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  @Iridescent: It seems a nearly exact wording was invoked at least a month prior in another case. I'm not sure if there's an earlier example in arbitration. Killiondude (talk) 16:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• Drmies highlights the core of this issue. Looking at the discussion above the only relevant link I spotted was this one. In that discussion, I see no posts indicating Ymblanter will be taken to Arbcom or their edits will be put forth for further scrutiny. There was a lot of "this complaint has no merit and should be closed" but that's not the same as "I will be asking Arbcom/the community if you're fit to be an admin". It is entirely possible that I'm missing a diff. If I am, can someone please point it out? Otherwise, I don't think "avoiding scrutiny" applies here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  Exactly my point. And, to add to this, no one of the users in that discussion, I believe, has ever been to my talk page (except for Fram).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:16, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  And I had quite a few people on my talk page after my resignation suggesting I should ask the tools back - obviously meaning they did not regard my resignation as under a cloud.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:39, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Poor arguement really, as just as many people would think the exact opposite, but are wise enough not to state what they really think of you on your talkpage, and you taking the easy way out, for fear of repercussions. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• I think the crats need to have a separate conversation to reach a consensus on whether a resysop is possible here. Meanwhile, those who had complaints about Ymblanter's administrative conduct, and possibly eased off on proceeding any further with their grievance, should consider resuming the process if they feel strongly about it. Mkdw ^talk 16:08, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• In a direct reply to Xaosflux above about the "evading scrutiny" trigger, I feel like that is in the resignation itself. At the time of resignation, Ymblanter admits himself that he "consistently got signals that some users do not trust [him] as administrator" and that "given the absence of instruments which provide proper feedback to administrators, [he did not] feel [that he had] sufficient community support to remain administrator." This says to me, despite whether or not a desysop was pending or not, that there was some active level of scrutiny taking place that he resigned over. Regardless of his intent, any complaints about his use of tools or competence to have them are chilled because of it. I think the fair thing to do, Ymblanter, would be to close this discussion by taking back the request and starting a new RFA. You said over your time as administrator only a few actions were challenged and that your record is fairly flawless in that aspect. If you truly feel that, then enough of the community will pass you to regain the tools. If it doesn't pass, then passing another new RFA is the only method of getting them back and this whole conversation won't have to be had again. Take into consideration that if you don't feel like you would pass a new RFA, then you shouldn't be asking for the tools back. — Moe Epsilon 18:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• This is No cloud IMO, but it's up to you bureaucrats. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• A suggestion that this resysopping would result immediately in some kind of case to remove Ymblanter's tools a) isn't actually likely, and b) would actually be the proper process anyway. WP:BN isn't ArbCom. If there's not clearly a cloud, then BN doesn't have a reason not to resysop, even if 'Crats suspect the ex-admin is likely to end up in hot water that leads to a desysop later (and articulating such a suspicion would be an AGF failure). This is important process distinction, not bureaucracy. (I say this as someone who would support a desysop if the old behavior resumed, without predicting that it will; indeed, one would have to assume some kind of CIR problem to make such a prediction.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
  • @SMcCandlish, nobody except Ymblanter has actually said that "this resysopping would result immediately in some kind of case to remove Ymblanter's tools". What I actually said was if this request is granted then as soon as I see any more of the bullying, blustering, and general "I'm an admin, that means policy doesn't apply to me and I can do whatever I like" attitude that caused Ymblanter to resign in the first place, I'll be off to Arbcom with a formal desysop motion; note the if. In this particular instance I'm A'ing very little GF, but what I am assuming is that the knowledge that he's under scrutiny might mean he'll at the very least tone down the school bully routine for a while until he thinks people have stopped watching. ‑ Iridescent 22:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

    I don't think you've read the entire discussion, Iridescent, e.g. Lepricavark's "A resysop will doubtless be followed by either an ArbCom case or a site ban discussion on one of the noticeboards." If I were taking issue with your posts in particular, I would have said so. I'm addressing the overall tenor of the anti- side of the discussion and the rationales being offered, and in particular the idea that it's BN's job to adjudicate such a "questioned admin behavior" matter, which it definitely is not.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:35, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• What message is being sent here? The message I'm reading is that those with advanced permissions shouldn't even temporarily hand in bits, even if they don't want the responsibilities that go with them for a period, because there will always be people who were unhappy with them when they had those bits. It deprecates the idea that anyone should take a break from being an admin, or whatever. This is a net negative. When admins feel the need to step away from those responsibilities for a while, they should be encouraged to do so, not punished. I'm very concerned about the impression I am getting that some 'crats feel it is appropriate to essentially re-run an RFA via proxy on this noticeboard, or alternately to create an enforced desysop process that has explicitly been rejected by the community. Give him back the bits; if he screws up, it's Arbcom's job to determine whether or not to desysop. Of all the concerns that anyone may have about Arbcom, the one thing they've been pretty consistently effective in has been removing the bits when they need to be removed. Risker (talk) 05:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, there clearly is a cloud over this editor "resigning", per all this (lenthy) debate. Other admins who've resigned from their post, only to request it back, are mainly down to inactivity, or some off-wiki real-world work that prevents them from being an admin for X amount of time. If this is restored, then either the Crats here a) don't care about the blow-black b) aren't applying WP:COMMONSENSE or c) like to make more work for themselves with the ArbCom case that will result from that action. Ymblanter said one of the main reasons for handing back the bit, was to focus on more content editing. I guess that was a lie, from someone who claims they don't lie. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 06:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Risker, it's chalk and cheese. This isn't a case of someone temporarily handing in the bits because they temporarily don't want the responsibilities that go with them for a period, this is someone who explicitly resigned because the community had lost confidence in them. If that doesn't constitute "under a cloud", then I don't see how anything short of actually resigning during an arb case ever could be. ‑ Iridescent 06:43, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

To be precise: Again, your links only show that it was Ymblanter who said the "community had lost confidence in them"—not the community. The odd thing is that there's usually a resistance to back-door desysoppings.

On a lighter note, who ever said that Bureaucrats don't earn their pay...—SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 07:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

That's a strange reading of the situation. I think it's excessive to take this specific case and extrapolate such a general principle out of it. Yes, all admins probably have a few critics, but not as many as Ymblanter. If your interpretation is valid, then how come most resysop requests are uncontroversial? In my opinion, the message being sent here is that when a former admin who has lost the confidence of a large portion of the community requests a resysop, there is going to be a pushback. Lepricavark (talk) 12:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

One of the points here, is who constitutes a large portion of the community? Ten people who have had previous disagreements? Some percentage of the active editing community? A majority of those who have noticed the resysop request because this page is on their watchlists? Some other arbitrary figure? · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 13:44, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't matter about the numbers. Most policy and guidelines on here are written by a handful of people who discuss them, before becoming long-standing WP ways of working. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose- for the poor behaviour around the Wikidata controversy. Ymblanter kept using his admin status to pull rank in order to win disputes, as well as interpreting disagreement as a deliberate attempt to provoke him. I think there's enough temperament-rlated questions that it should go to RfA. Reyk _YO! 08:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support giving Ymblanter the bit back. Whether he is a good admin or not is irrelevant. Whether he is going to maybe possibly subsequently end up getting desysopped down the line is irrelevant. What's relevant is that it's not the bureaucrats job to have to make that kind of decision, and it's unfair to put them in that position. Did Ymblanter clearly cede his access to the tools specifically to evade scrutiny of his actions that could have led to sanction? Not clearly. Therefore he should get the bit back, and any desysopping can be sorted out definitively by Arbcom, who are supposed to manage this kind of thing. Oh and I also agree with Risker; making it harder for admins to temporarily give up their tools and get them back is going to result in less admins being willing to temporarily give up their tools. Fish+Karate 09:35, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Since Deskana mentions it in the crat chat above, I think the question should not be whether a 6-4 vote is enough consensus to resysop but instead whether a 4-6 vote is sufficient to permanently remove the tools. Because, as has been pointed out above, not returning the tools in "unclear" situations will effectively mean the crats decide whether someone should be permanently desysopped and I cannot find anything in policy anywhere that supports crats having the right to make this decision. So imho, if there is no consensus not to deny the resysop, the tools should be handed back ("in dubio pro resysop"). As this discussion proves, Ymblanter's actions will be closely monitored and adequate relief be sought if necessary anyway. Regards SoWhy 15:14, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Admittedly, this is a tough situation for the Crats to resolve, but whether one regards it as 6/4 or 4/6, it's clear that there is still a lot of uncertainty about the right approach to take. Under such circumstances, I think that "first, do no harm" is a good principle – but then the question is which action does less harm, and that's no easy question. I don't think that it necessarily defaults to taking the most pro forma path. If, for example, that means to resysop with the clear knowledge that it is likely that the community will generate an ArbCom case and then have to go through the process of such a case, culminating in a new RfA, that seems like asking the community to jump through an awful lot of hoops only to end up in the same place as having a new RfA now. On the other hand, stepping back in favor of a new RfA now, puts the decision in the hands of the community, which is where I think it ought to be. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:17, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
    • Your example requires tools crats do not possess. Regards SoWhy 19:23, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
      • As I said, I appreciate how difficult this is, and I'm looking for how to "first, do no harm". I realize that none of us has a crystal ball (to which you blue-linked), but I'm not asking for that. And it's really not worth arguing about how likely or unlikely an ArbCom case is going to be. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Crat chats aren't votes, and restoring the tools only requires a single crat thinking it is the right response, not a majority. Granted, Crats tend to take other Crat's opinions to heart (and that is a good thing). I don't have a problem with a Crat reinstating the tools. Anyone is free to file at Arb if they think it is necessary. I do not think "cloud" means that severe action by Arb is "possible", and instead means "probable". We can't ask Crats to second guess what Arb will accept or not accept, as that is even more erratic than what they will desysop for. Without a bright line offense (wheel warring, etc) is would seem that reinstating the tools is well within policy, and expectations for Crats. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:00, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Personally, I don't believe "evading scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions", as is stated in Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Restoration of permissions, implies that sanctions were probable. isaacl (talk) 18:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
• If Ymblanter was stupid enough to resign without making it clear that he intended it not to be seen as under a cloud, then it's his own goddam fault, and you'd think someone entrusted by the community to use special tools responsibly would have the sense to think of that. It's incredible we're spending all this time to salvage membership for someone in a club which (a) is for the community's benefit, not the "member's" and (b) we're always saying is not a big deal. EEng 15:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

  (S)he literally said during the resignation this is not a resignation under a cloud, so it was obviously not intended to be seen as under a cloud. Useight (talk) 16:26, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

He was hardly going to say that it was a cloud, was he? That's like saying that if you're up in court for a crime and saying you didn't do it, everyone goes home at that point. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, Useight is right. I somehow missed that bit of Ymblanter's request all this time, and I eat my words and apologize. I have to say that I find it very awkward that apparently (as seen in the subsequent discussion of Ymblanter's request for removal of privileges -- see below) it's considered appropriate to delay the "cloud" determination until a request for restoration of privileges is made -- that strikes me as backwards and it seems obvious to me that the time to do that is at the time the privileges are removed, when everything's fresh in the mind. Anyway, I'm not sure that the discussion that immediately followed Ymblanter's removal request has been received sufficient attention in these past few days' discussion re restoration; here's the link Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard/Archive_37#Request_for_flag_removal, and I think everyone here should read it. EEng 17:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support resysop (Non-bureaucrat comment) - while Ymblanter's "some users don't trust me so maybe I should resign" (paraphrased) comment seems to indicate that they thought a could was forming, it also does not seem to have been related to any particular incident. As far as I can tell and as far as anyone has been able to explain, no proceeding had been initiated prior to their request to resign, nor can I see anywhere in the discussions which were occurring at the time that any editors were considering it. And so I agree with Maxim (and maybe others) that declining this request amounts to the bureaucrats making a controversial determination about the weather, which is not within their authority. That is Arbcom's determination to make. I'm also quite strongly concerned about this decision creating a back-door to community desysopping, which the community has consistently rejected. If the 'crats cannot agree that the resignation was indeed under a cloud then they have no choice but to return the bit, and if anyone here strongly feels that Ymblanter's actions prior to resignation amount to cause for desysopping or that their resignation was intended to evade scrutiny or shirk admin accountability, they should compile their evidence and request arbitration, and they needn't wait for this request to conclude. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

However, if Ymblanter still believes that they no longer have the community's trust, then the accountable approach would be to drop this request and stand for a reconfirmation RfA. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:07, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Followup comment (see my "process is important" note from several days ago). One issue I have with this is those disfavoring a regranting of the tools are largely hinging on what Ymblanter said upon resigning them. Given all the same facts, if Ymblanter had instead simply said something different – posted a differently phrased request – even a simple "I need a break.", this discussion probably would not be happening. BN is close to overstepping its authority (into adjudicating administrator behavior and fitness) mostly on the basis of the subjective wording choice of someone under stress. On a side note, I agree with EEng's view above that it's not useful 'to delay the "cloud" determination until a request for restoration of privileges is made -- that strikes me as backwards and it seems obvious to me that the time to do that is at the time the privileges are removed'. Doing the determination then rather than later would avoid repeats of this situation.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

  And I would suggest that the bar for such at-the-time determinations should be very low i.e. where there's any significant hint of trouble, the intended resign-er should be told, "Um, now's not a good time for you to resign; better wait until [whatever] is closed, or we'll have to consider your resignation under a cloud." EEng 04:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• I disagree that "those disfavoring a regranting of the tools are largely hinging on what Ymblanter said upon resigning them." Useight (talk) 04:48, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello 'crats. I've started a mostly ad-hoc discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Interface_administrators#Stop-gap_users_nominated due to the scheduled access change next week and the lack of a new community policy being born from the consensus process yet. I'm recusing myself due to nominating everyone. Now the second problem, in the absence of policy actually directing us to process these requests are there any bureaucrats that would be willing to close and process access grants assuming the specific nominees gain support? — xaosflux ^Talk 02:46, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

I can do that. 28bytes (talk) 03:15, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

As can I, if 28bytes is busy... Worm^TT(talk) 07:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

And thirded --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:46, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you all, the ad-hoc minimum discussion time has been reached, please review if you think there is consensus to act (including that a sufficient overall participation level was met). The general community proposal seems to be getting closer to something actionable, but I suspect there may be one or two other temporaries that may be needed (such as the normal maintainers of MediaWiki:Gadget-geonotice-list.js while it still has to be done this way) that could go through the same abbreviated but temporary process. Best regards, — xaosflux ^Talk 14:52, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Regarding that Geonotice, I wonder if one could build a template that hosts the "safe" portions of the JavaScript while leaving the sensitive ones on the now higher-protected page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:02, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: see MediaWiki_talk:Gadget-geonotice-core.js#convert_data_to_json?, I think there is a technical issue blocking this right now, but that it should be able to be moved to JSON (which is not restricted to IA's). — xaosflux ^Talk 15:20, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

• And so enacted. Worm^TT(talk) 17:39, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't think keeping this one open for extra time, so more can pile on, is helpful. Can this one get a quick "mercy close", please? Everything that needs to be said has already been said. wbm1058 (talk) 13:10, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

My RfA closed today at 64%. At the scheduled closing time the vote was 65% in my favour but shortly after that time additional voting moved it to 64% thus depriving me of the opportunity of a "crat chat". In the oppose votes there were factual inaccuracies where I was criticised for articles I hadn't edited, images I hadn't uploaded and the formatting of references carried out by other people. There was plenty of valid criticism too or it would have been higher than 65%. I am no wiki-lawyer and I don't want to sound like this is a case of sour grapes but it is a little frustrating not to be granted the opportunity of an additional overview by bureaucrats due to voting that occurred after the scheduled close. This will probably be my only application for admin so I want to be sure of the result. I realise a "crat chat" is not automatic but I should be grateful if one would be granted. Philafrenzy (talk) 15:10, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Non-crat comment: As of 11:23 [3], the tally is 143/78/23, so s% is 143/(143+78)=64.7%, not above 65%. So I endorse this decision Hhkohh (talk) 15:24, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi Philafrenzy. I went over to assess the consensus, and saw a clear lack of consensus to promote, so would not have instigated a crat chat, even if 5-10 more people had supported. The 65%-75% area does not automatically require a crat chat, nor does less than 65% automatically stop one from happening - a crat chat is meant for situations where consensus is not clear, based on the rationales provided. What's more, the 7 day period is a minimum, not an absolute. I'm afraid I agree with the outcome here - but I will say, on a personal note, I would like to see you as an admin one day and I think you will do a fine job, so please do try again in a few months. Worm^TT(talk) 15:29, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, we do our bureaucrats a disservice when we casually refer to the 65%-75% as "crat chat zone" instead of "discretionary." As WTT says, a crat chat is a bit of an ad hoc creation when a closing bureaucrat has difficulty discerning consensus. The confusion only exists because we have largely established cutoff zones at RfA, so most of the time we expect discretion to be used is where a crat chat might reasonably appear. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 15:37, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I participated in the RfA, so won't speak to the merits of the discussion, however as far as the closing process goes: RfA's remain open for comments until they are closed, there is not a mandatory maximum discussion period, this is similar to almost all other consensus building discussions such as AFDs/RFCs. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

@Philafrenzy: You were criticized for images (plural) you didn't upload? I don't see that anywhere. In my oppose !vote, I cited four files, three of which you were the original uploader for and one of which someone else uploaded but you retouched and uploaded an edited version of it. I don't see any other !votes that mentioned specific images. I clearly said that you "retouched" the one file that you weren't the original uploader for. You were not criticized for "images [you] hadn't uploaded". --B (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

On the other hand, oppose #70 contained criticism for pages Philafrenzy didn't edit. Though I have no doubt that any factual inaccuracies in RfA comments were taken into consideration by the closing crat. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 19:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• On your talk page, you made the statement that "it's somewhat frustrating that I would probably have had this additional consideration at 65%". I don't know where you got the impression that a 65%="crat chat likely", but it doesn't. Secondly, I don't know where you got the impression that !votes cast after the scheduled closing time shouldn't count, but they do. Thirdly, I don't know where you get the impression that a 64% is such a close call that you need to split hairs over that single percentage point, but it's not. Lastly, you still had significant support, and as long as you do not continue to repeat the mistakes that led to the opposes, you could probably easily sail through an RfA in the future with my full confidence and support. Whether or not it was intended, this apparent refusal to simply respect the opposition to your RfA and instead split hairs over the close will likely come up as an obstacle to that. Swarm ♠ 18:08, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Hello, I am writing to request the interface administrator right, which I have lost due to the recent change. I am dropping a line here per the current text on WP:Interface administrators: "Bureaucrats may grant interface administrator access to any current administrator requesting access at the bureaucrat's noticeboard. Requests must remain open for a minimum of 24 hours for community review." I am an administrator on WP:Geonotice and also have extensive experience in editing the MediaWiki namespace through interface and gadget localization work at the Cantonese Wikipedia. Deryck C. 13:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@Deryck Chan: That's a proposed policy, not an actual one. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 13:38, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

 Not done there is no policy that allows us to grant this access yet, see all the notes on the request above. If the process will be delayed you could start another list of stop-gap users with essentially the same accepted temporary process used for the last list. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:09, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Hello, I do a lot of CSD and occasionally encounter userspace css/js pages wherein the creator has requested deletion. As the new change no longer allows me to edit/delete these pages, I would like to request the interface administrator permission so I can continue to carry out these duties. Thanks, FASTILY 04:14, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

​Soon deleting user CSS/JS pages will not require interface admin. See phab:T200176. — JJMC89 (T·C) 04:25, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Nice, I wasn't aware of that. If this fix is going soon live then I won't need this permission. -FASTILY 04:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Can you show me a few recent examples of deletions you've made that would have required iadmin? SQL^{Query me!} 04:26, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Tried to U1 User:Mandarax/w.js just now. I'm not sure how to pull up a list of previous *.js/*.css pages I've deleted using any existing special page. Can try running a query on labs later when/if I have time. -FASTILY 04:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Fastily for CSD processing while this is worked out, feel free to drop a {{sudo}} on their associated talk pages with your CSD note. — xaosflux ^Talk 04:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Note, phab:T200176 appears to be ready, just waiting for train to deliver it. This will restore delete access to sysops for user js/css pages. — xaosflux ^Talk 04:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

According to MediaWiki 1.32/wmf.19 this is going live today. Please consider this  Request withdrawn -FASTILY 04:44, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Fastily, well Thursday. The deployment train starts on Tuesdays, but en.wp is the last station on Thursdays. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:55, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• @Fastily: this access should now be working, please let us know if you have any problems. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:57, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, and will do! -FASTILY 03:29, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm here to request the 'interface administrator' user rights so that I can continue to do what I've done before, which is to assist users with their .js and .css code within their user space (in fact, I have a message on my user talk page here with an active request for help regarding their .js file and scripts). I won't be able to continue assisting users with their code without the permissions. I'm a software engineer, have designed my own versions of scripts within my user space, and I completely know and understand the sensitivity of these user rights and the impact that making careless edits and mistakes can cause to Wikipedia; I have a strong password, use 2FA, and promise to use the rights with care at all times. If anyone has any questions or concerns, please let me know and I'll be happy to respond. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

 Not done Hi @Oshwah: we don't yet have a community approved mandate to process this request, although you sound like a fine candidate. You (and anyone following this) can help get a proposal moved to production at: Wikipedia talk:Interface administrators - and the sooner the better! Should that process continue to delay, I (and presumably the other 'crats who commented above) would consider temporary grants that followed the approximate consensus driven support mechanism as seen at Wikipedia_talk:Interface_administrators#Stop-gap_users_nominated (especially that it is open for at least a few days, allows for revocations for cause, has sufficient participation, and has sufficient advertisement). Additionally, that same sort of mechanism could be used to empower us crats to do general temporary grants in the interim. I know this process can be annoying, and thank you for wanting to keep helping! If you have any edits that are needed, please drop an edit request on the associated talk page and it will be given priority. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Xaosflux - Ah, poo... no worries. The guidelines and mandates regarding the granting of this user right will be better defined in time. I'll definitely do my due diligence and help on the discussion page as you suggested. Thanks for the response and for letting me know :-). Cheers - ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:40, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Side question @Xaosflux:, is there a new version of the edit-request template/cat for this, since it's a new level of protection (inherent instead of applied manually)? The edit-fully-protected queue doesn't seem proper... Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 02:07, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

  @Salvidrim: there is not a custom report (yet) and until we get more editors it's probably not a great idea to get split them off as there won't be as many eyes if they are getting ignored. These will show up on User:AnomieBOT/PERTable, you can see an example of when I tested it here: Special:PermaLink/856765977. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux: (or anyone, not picking on Xf!) Just out of my own absolutely idle curiousity (seeing admins not able to request the right becasue it doesn't officially exist, right?), then how comes a few already do hold it? Beta testing or something? —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 17:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

  @Serial Number 54129: the user right exists; a formal method of requesting it does not. ansh666 17:38, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

  There was a quick poll to grant temporary access to a couple uncontroversial candidates until the formal application process is figured out. Those people will need to reapply once the formal process is in place. See here and here. ZettaComposer (talk) 18:09, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) @Serial Number 54129: A consensus was reached to go ahead and grant the right to 6 users who frequently edit JS/CSS pages for 3 months, until we do figure out a formal method of requesting the right. See here. I personally would support giving this right to both Oshwah and Deryck.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 18:11, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

  @Serial Number 54129: if there is a second batch of editors that would like to go through the same "quick poll" process, it can be done. Using the same constraints and methods of the precedent setting first batch should be sufficient. If it was opened today it could be done in 3 to 4 days. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:43, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks everyone,​​​​ for indulging me. I assumed something had happeed and I just hadn't noticed...*shock horror* it had and I hadn't  :) hope it all goes well, it sounds—well—most original. Cheers, —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 18:46, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I have just closed the Interface Administrator RfC, and now that a process exists, because the new process is less demanding than the temporary one implemented by Xaosflux, I propose all users that have passed Xaosflux's IntAdmin process should be converted to full permanent ones. Thoughts? All current IntAdmins can be found here.—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 22:25, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm on the list myself, but would rather not use the made-up process to start this, and just do a standard 48 hour hold here to make it a "clean" process. (If you are on the list and don't want this you may certainly remove yourself from the list!). — xaosflux ^Talk 02:20, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Just in regards to any complaints of "you need to actually ask for it", I do indeed want to continue to be able to use this. Thanks, — xaosflux ^Talk 00:42, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: I don't think pings were issued when you created the list below, if that was your intention. — MusikAnimal ^talk 04:29, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• I feel I should point out that we have passed 72 hours. Would it be possible for a crat to close this?—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 00:40, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Stop gap user list

• Amorymeltzer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Cyberpower678 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Deryck Chan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• MSGJ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Mr. Stradivarius (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• MusikAnimal (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Oshwah (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Pharos (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Ragesoss (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Ritchie333 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• TheDJ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Xaosflux (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Discuss

• support no issues and they are clear passed previous 96 standard waiting Hhkohh (talk) 02:44, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Anyone who passed the previous requirements definitely meets the new requirements. Regards SoWhy 07:53, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I see no reason why not. Vanamonde (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
• Procedural Oppose. Why have these names been mass added? The new procedure says people should nominate themselves with a 48 hour holding period, and with a definite need in mind. If each of these users individually requests the bit I can support, but the whole point of this is to reduce our attack surface, and mass adding people who have not requested it is anathema to that.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:10, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

  Each user did request access before process was established. This is just formalizing/finalizing these requests. Also bear in mind the final decision rests with the bureaucrats.—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 17:30, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

  But this is the new process now. The rules (which I believe are based on your own close, Cyberpower), say Admin makes a request, with a rationale, at the bureaucrats’ noticeboard, to request interface administrator access. That has not happened here. Like I say, if each of the above names makes such a request, I would be happy to support, but for now they haven't done so, and having previously done so isn't proof they still wish to have access. It's a grave shame if we can't get the new process right even on the first day.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:33, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

  But they made such a request at the old venue with stricter requirements. It's not like they got it without any process. Also, we didn't mass-desysop editors Jimbo had given the rights to before RFA was established, did we? That's how grandfathering works. Plus, and this comes from someone who has been repeatedly accused of being too bureaucratic (funnily enough at my own failed request to become a bureaucrat), requiring these editors to follow the new less strict process after already passing the strict process seems to be following rules for the sake of following rules. Regards SoWhy 17:46, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

  (edit conflict)Rationale doesn't imply the requirement of stating an indication of need, as that proposal was turned down. But needless to say, every user who has gone through the process of gaining 6 months access, undoubtedly would have handed the bit in if they weren't interested in retaining it. But to each their own. I'll let those users speak for themselves.—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 17:52, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

  We can basically oppose for any reason since the final decision rests with the reviewing bureaucrat. So when you say Rationale doesn't imply the requirement of stating an indication of need, as that proposal was turned down, that doesn't mean a whole lot. (We know what these person's needs are, as Xaosflux already got that out of them.) --Izno (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

  You can. The whole point of the discussion is to bring possible security issues or competence issues to light for the bureaucrat to decide on. As admins already have a higher level of trust, asking for perms in an RfA style manner is pointless, as this perm is strictly a letter of security. That’s at least the impression I got at the RFC I closed.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 11:46, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

  If you are concerned about my account security, then let me state that I have both a super long password and 2FA enabled on my account. I know that’s not the only way to gain access to an account, but I’ve always taken precautions to secure access to my account since before I became an admin.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 11:49, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

  I don't understand why this is so difficult. If these users really want the bit, it is a matter of two minutes or less to put together a request on this page, saying why they want it, and I encourage them to do so now. You can also do so, Cyberpower and I'll support you. This mass adding is wrong though, including for the geonotice reasons that Izno mentions below, where the privelege isn't really needed. I continue to oppose this request, and advise the crats not to appoint anyone who hasn't nominated themselves, as the procedure requires. Thanks.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:55, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

  And if that's what the crats want, then so be it, that's what the crats will get. I respect your input. I just feel following process for the sake of process is, even if I just did establish it, a bit redundant given these listed users went through a more stringent process when they requested it initially.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 12:04, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

  Despite my user-right saying "bureaucrat", I cannot stand process for the sake of process. Personally, I would be happy to accept this grandfathering in, if community consensus is towards that. Worm^TT(talk) 12:10, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

• Seems perfectly reasonable to convert these to permanent. Based on their success at the more stringent process, no one would object if they did it the Vogon way, so let's not make them do it the Vogon way. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support – Makes sense., no problems with the users. ^Semi_Hypercube ✎ 23:24, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
• Besides the procedural concern, I'll oppose indefinite extension for the editors above who requested the tools solely for the purpose of Geonotices, or predominantly for Geonotices (to wit, that's Cyberpower, Deryck, and Pharos), out of the "decrease the attack surface" concern and the fact we should sooner-rather-than-later have a working alternative that MusikAnimal will be hacking on soonly. I'm also concerned about Ritchie per MusikAnimal's oppose at his temporary IAdmin request thread. --Izno (talk) 23:56, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support seeing as they have already satisfied a more stringent process than the new one. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:48, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - they were elected by the community less than a month ago. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:05, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support, no reason not to.--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 12:47, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - why not? 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 20:42, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support – should be a fairly trivial matter. Mz7 (talk) 15:34, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support  pythoncoder  (talk | contribs) 00:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I didn't mind a stopgap list when we had no procedure. Now, editors need to follow the rules and abide the procedure they helped create. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:34, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Crat action?

Hi 'crats, this has been open far longer than the new 48hr requirement; I'm very very involved so don't want to get involved with closure - but would like to know if there is going to be action or an actual denial here. Thank you, — xaosflux ^Talk 03:03, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

I've created a VPP section to expand 'crat access to include management of the new botgroup, copyvio bot. Please see Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#bureaucrat_access_to_manage_copyviobot_group for details. Thank you, — xaosflux ^Talk 02:12, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 22:26, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

• Dinoguy1000 (t · th · c · del · cross-wiki · SUL · edit counter · pages created (xtools · sigma) · non-automated edits · BLP edits · undos · manual reverts · rollbacks · logs ^{(blocks · rights · moves)} · rfar · spi · cci) (assign permissions)^{(acc · ap · fm · mms · npr · pm · pcr · rb · te)}

I'm requesting interface administrator for myself: I periodically make corrections to the sitewide CSS/JS files (often in the context of reusing styles/scripts on other wikis), and it would be more convenient to be able to continue making these changes myself rather than requesting them be made. I am also willing to handle any requests left on my talk page for such edits. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{☎ Dinoguy1000} 22:26, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

• Standard 48 hour hold for access. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:27, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
• (Non-bureaucrat comment) Are you really retired from Wikipedia? --Rschen7754 22:35, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
  • As I explained on WT:Interface administrators, I consider myself to be "soft" retired: while my editing here has greatly decreased from when I was active, I never stopped editing completely, nor did I intend to; the bulk of my editing activities just moved to other wikis. I've always left the possibiliy that I might return to full editing here one day. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{☎ Dinoguy1000} 09:25, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

    @Dinoguy1000: If your retirement is "soft", do you think you could use a {{Semi-retired}} template on your user page to avoid confusion? ^Semi_Hypercube ✎ 21:01, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

    Oh, yes! I don't think I was aware of that template before now, otherwise I'd have been using it already. Thank you for the pointer. =) 「ディノ奴千？！」^{☎ Dinoguy1000} 22:05, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi 'crats. Would someone please review and process Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/EranBot 3. I closed this in my BAG capacity. This account will need the new "copyviobot" flag added in addition to its existing bot flag. Posting here as this won't show in the normal reports since it is unusual. Best regards, — xaosflux ^Talk 18:48, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

 Done. 28bytes (talk) 20:32, 24 October 2018 (UTC)