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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  20:09, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

List of multilingual websites[edit]

List of multilingual websites (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This article would be far too long. A category of the same topic has already been created. — Music1201 talk 04:20, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If and when the list article becomes too long, then it can be split into separate pages. (WP:SPINOUT) Possibly it will never become too long. (WP:HASTE) Also, a list can co-exist with a corresponding category. (WP:CLN)
—Wavelength (talk) 06:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The list has well-defined criteria for inclusion that don't leave the impression that length can become an issue. Uanfala (talk) 00:26, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which WP:DEL-REASON is "would be far too long"? – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete, I do not understand the purpose of this list. It is not to help navigation and does not seem to meet notability for stand-alone lists. I am afraid that it is an exercise in original research. Renata (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This list presents, on one page, details which are not presented on the category page, as well as details (specific languages) which are not presented on all the entry article pages. For some multilingual websites, the reader needs to visit the website (or consult this list) to find those details. Thus, the reader of the list is able to compare the details (of various websites) presented on one page. That advantage very definitely does help navigation for readers interested in specific languages or in large numbers of languages. (WP:CLN, paragraph 2, second half) Also, the two external links in the present version are to pages discussing multilingual websites, and there are many other web pages also discussing multilingual websites. The list very definitely does meet notability for stand-alone lists. (WP:LISTN)
—Wavelength (talk) 23:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia (talk) 23:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia (talk) 23:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia (talk) 23:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The first paragraph of the introduction mentions two important (nontrivial) inclusion criteria: for a website to qualify, (1) it must have more than one interface language, and (2) Wikipedia must have an article about the website itself.
—Wavelength (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your first statement is answered by my post of 06:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC) and my post of 23:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC), both on this page. Also, I selected entries from Category:Multilingual websites, and I found the website address for each entry in the respective Wikipedia article. For each entry, I found the interface languages in the Wikipedia article or on the website or both. For many entries, I found the number of entries stated in the Wikipedia article or on the website or both. For some entries, I consulted Wikimedia wikis for the number and names of interface languages. For some entries, I counted the interface languages myself. All those actions appear to be in compliance with WP:OR.
—Wavelength (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. WP:NOTADIRECTORY. Sigh. What's next, list of websites using black color or size 11 font? Ridiculous. PS. If this comment is a bit harsh, let me clarify. This list can be, in fact, useful to someone. But I don't see how it fits into our project scope; OR concerns and such seem valid to me. However, I note we do not have an article on multilingual website. Perhaps it would be notable, and if this is the case, perhaps such a list could be a part of it.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:35, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Multilingualism is more important than color or font size, when various websites are compared in their function as information sources. Wikipedia does have an article "Languages used on the Internet", and its section "See also" can have an internal link to this list article.
—Wavelength (talk) 19:19, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
—Wavelength (talk) 19:19, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In May 2016, I translated the majority of the Spanish article w:es:Idioma leco into English at w:en:Leco language, in response to Wikipedia:Translating Ibero - America/list 2016. If English sources are required for my contribution to the English version, then I am not sure of whether I would be able to find any.
By accessing a website with information already prepared in a plurality of languages, a Wikipedia editor is able to find equivalent sources for all of those languages. A list article is more useful than a category page for showing which websites have information in which languages. A Wikipedia editor using only the category page would have to spend time in opening various articles about individual websites, and in some cases, also spend time in visiting the websites, in order to find those details. The list article has similar benefits for readers who are not editing Wikipedia.
—Wavelength (talk) 00:59, 21 May 2016 (UTC) and 01:49, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. Wikipedia requires that an article be supported by reliable sources. Perhaps the research involved in finding reliably sourced information is what some of the commenters count as original research. The article "Facebook" (version of 11:21, 15 May 2016) says that the website is available in 140 languages, but the website https://www.facebook.com lists only 91 available languages. If an editor revises the article "Facebook" to make it agree with the website https://www.facebook.com, perhaps some of the commenters would say that that is a violation of the policy against original research. No commenter has explained what aspect(s) of "List of multilingual websites" he or she believes involve(s) original research. Different editors have different interpretations of what counts as original research, and different people have different interpretations of what counts as forbidden work.
—Wavelength (talk) 00:32, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete. I cannot see this ever being a useful article. The number of websites out there that support more than one language is in what, the millions? I have no idea but it is certainly several orders of magnitude larger than the small, editor selected list here. There is no clear criterion why these have been selected, no evidence (other than implied primary sourcing via external links) that they are multilingual. As these issues can never be fixed, so a suitable article can never be created, it should be deleted.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 23:12, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is a clear criterion for selecting these websites and it's stated in the lead: only those that have a dedicated wikipedia article. There are 118 of these at present. Uanfala (talk) 23:54, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But WP is not a reliable source, for itself or for anything else, and referring to WP itself like that should be avoided. That 118 is clearly inadequate. I can think of many not listed here so presumably not categorised, and there must be many many more. Large, important web sites will tend to be multilingual and they will tend to belong to notable companies with articles. It’s not a problem that the category is woefully incomplete – it is a matter for individual articles – but it does render this list inadequate as it is and impossible to make it even close to complete as it would get too long.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 00:27, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the introduction to the article. "List of multilingual websites" is not a list of entities with multilingual websites. If it were, then it would include "European Union", an article about an entity whose website (http://europa.eu) has 24 interface languages. This article is a list of multilingual websites, where each website listed has a Wikipedia article and various interface languages. If the website of the European Union had a website which was notable enough in its own right for Wikipedia to have an article about it (possibly "European Union website"), then that article could be on this list. The number of potential websites on this list is evidently lower than what you seem to suppose.
—Wavelength (talk) 05:14, 23 May 2016 (UTC) and 01:49, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The list, with 75 websites listed at this time, is very useful to me. For the entry "Facebook", I used the figure "91" (representing the number of languages in the language menu on the website), instead of the figure "140" shown in the Wikipedia article. It seems reasonable to me that, for such details, the website itself is more reliable and more up-to-date than both the Wikipedia article and a secondary source. (WP:SENSE)
—Wavelength (talk) 21:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to whoever will close this discussion. I have endeavored to refute all of the objections to the existence of this list article, and I hope that you will find my comments to be convincing. If you decide to keep the article, then I thank you in advance. If your decision is for deletion, then I request that you provide three things in your closing comments (a link to a policy supporting your decision, a quotation of the relevant text in that policy, and a mention of the aspect of the list article that you find violates the policy), and I thank you in advance for providing those three things.
—Wavelength (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC) and 01:49, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep At first blush, it does sound like an unencyclopedic list. But after reading the introduction to the list (something that half of the participants in this discussion here seem to give an indication of not having done), I find it suitable. The grouping of websites by interface languages is culturally relevant (in the broad sense) and the inclusion criterion (only websites with wikipedia articles) makes it maintainable.
Renata3, WP:LISTN isn't of much help here as the guideline explicitly states that there's no present consensus on the notability of cross-categorisation lists. There is, however, one clue in the text there: the list will be notable if the grouping ot the items is notable of itself. So in our case: is multilingual website a notable concept? Even though there's no wikipedia article about it yet, we'd all agree that it is notable (and if we don't, a look at the google scholar results should be enough of a hint). As for the argument that Category:Multilingual websites already does the job of this list: well, it doesn't: the category can't list the languages of each website. Uanfala (talk) 00:45, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Userfy or move to project space per NOTDIRECTORY, or you prefer per NOTGUIDE. The criteria "websites each of which has more than one interface language" seems to me like a fairly arbitrary thing to curate. One might as well have "car models each of which has more than one available engine" or "sodas each of which uses more than one sweetener in different markets". If Wikipedians find such a list useful for translation or reference, put it in an appropriate namespace. But as an encyclopedia article, this list is trying to be something that Wikipedia is not. The project should be for encyclopedia readers; the needs of editors are secondary. Cnilep (talk) 07:58, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering if Bilingual inscription should be deleted based on these criteria. Uanfala (talk) 10:08, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're comparing apples and oranges. The equivalent would be List of bilingual inscriptions, and yes, I'd say that would likely be an AfD candidate too. As you've already noted, we don't actually have a comparable article called Multilingual website where some of the top examples could be listed. ✤ Fosse 8 ✤ 16:19, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(New post) At 00:59, 21 May 2016 (UTC), I said: "The list article has similar benefits for readers who are not editing Wikipedia." At 19:19, 19 May 2016 (UTC), I said: "Multilingualism is more important than color or font size, when various websites are compared in their function as information sources." For "car models each of which has more than one available engine", there is "List of hybrid vehicles". For "sodas each of which uses more than one sweetener in different markets", I find no Wikipedia article at the present time, but there is "List of soft drink flavors". Multilingualism is not trivial. As an editor of Wikipedia and as a reader, I find the list, with 75 websites listed at this time, to be very useful.
—Wavelength (talk) 19:13, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. For anyone who deems "List of multilingual websites" to involve a trivial criterion (or several trivial criteria), I have compiled this list of Wikipedia articles, presented here in the order in which I found them. All of them are useful, and their criteria are not trivial.
  1. List of transcontinental countries
  2. Members of the Australian Parliament who have represented more than one state or territory
  3. List of cities spanning more than one continent
  4. List of countries with multiple capitals
  5. List of people who have addressed both Houses of the United Kingdom Parliament
  6. List of movies with more than one Academy Award nomination in the same category
  7. List of cities with more than one airport
  8. List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises
  9. List of countries bordering on two or more oceans
  10. List of people who have won multiple Academy Awards in a single year
  11. List of former transcontinental countries
  12. Types of fiction with multiple endings
  13. List of countries by number of broadband Internet subscriptions
  14. List of sovereign states in Europe by number of Internet users
  15. List of countries by number of military and paramilitary personnel
  16. List of languages by number of native speakers
  17. List of languages by total number of speakers
  18. List of countries by foreign-born population
  19. List of countries by number of Internet users
  20. List of flags by number of colors
  21. List of languages by number of native speakers in India
  22. List of sign languages by number of native signers
  23. List of countries by number of UN peacekeepers
  24. List of states and territories of India by number of places of worship
  25. List of archipelagos by number of islands
  26. List of tennis players by number of wins in one doubles tournament
  27. List of U.S. states by vehicles per capita
  28. List of countries by number of Internet hosts
  29. List of countries by smartphone penetration
  30. List of countries by number of mobile phones in use
  31. List of countries and dependencies by number of police officers
  32. List of states of India by number of Gujarati speakers
  33. List of countries by the number of US dollar billionaires
  34. List of animals by number of neurons
  35. List of artists by number of Billboard Hot 100 number-one singles
  36. List of countries by Internet connection speeds
  37. List of Scottish council areas by number of Scottish Gaelic speakers
  38. Indian states ranked by number of vehicles
  39. List of snooker players by number of ranking titles
  40. List of artists by number of UK Albums Chart number ones
  41. List of countries by number of heliports
  42. List of countries by 4G LTE penetration
  43. List of cities with the most skyscrapers
  44. List of multiple Olympic medalists
  45. List of countries and territories by land and maritime borders
  46. List of countries by number of Academy Awards for Best Foreign Language Film
  47. List of countries by Internet access from smartphones
  48. List of literary works by number of translations
  49. List of cities by number of hotel rooms
  50. List of artists by number of UK Singles Chart number ones
  51. List of cricketers by number of international centuries scored
  52. List of U.S. cities by number of professional sports championships
  53. List of multiple-system operators
  54. List of universities by number of billionaire alumni
  55. Books published per country per year
  56. List of people by number of countries visited
  57. List of most downloaded Android applications
  58. List of countries by number of television broadcast stations
  59. List of Christian denominations by number of members
  60. List of cities by number of billionaires
  61. List of Mount Everest summiters by number of times to the summit
  62. List of major shopping centres in Australia by size
  63. List of island countries by population density
  64. List of footballers in England and Scotland by number of league goals
  65. List of college women's lacrosse coaches with 250 wins
  66. List of largest shopping malls in the world
  67. List of U.S. cities with large Vietnamese-American populations
  68. List of Romanian websites by number of unique visitors
  69. List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin
  70. List of flags by color combination
  71. List of longest-running United States television series
  72. List of countries by level of military equipment
  73. List of treaties by number of parties
  74. List of countries by Nobel laureates per capita
  75. List of joint winners of the Hugo and Nebula awards
  76. List of languages by the number of countries in which they are recognized as an official language
  77. List of legislatures by number of members
  78. List of longest-running U.S. broadcast network television series
  79. List of multiple births
  80. European countries by military expenditure as a percentage of government expenditure
  81. List of top international rankings by country
  82. List of North American cities by number of major sports championships
  83. List of religious populations
  84. List of athletes with the most appearances at Olympic Games
  85. List of multiple Winter Olympic medalists
  86. List of multiple Olympic medalists at a single Games
  87. List of multiple discoveries
  88. List of multiple Olympic medalists in one event
  89. List of multiple Olympic gold medalists at a single Games
  90. List of multiple Paralympic gold medalists at a single Games
  91. List of multiple Olympic gold medalists in one event
  92. List of multiple winners at the Holmenkollen Ski Festival
  93. List of multiple Southeast Asian Games medalists
  94. List of multiple Olympic gold medalists
  95. List of quarterbacks with multiple Super Bowl starts
  96. List of players with five or more goals in an NHL game
  97. List of players who have won multiple FIFA Women's World Cups
  98. List of multiplanetary systems
  99. List of countries by literacy rate
  100. List of people on multiple governing boards
  101. List of multigenre conventions
—Wavelength (talk) 19:18, 24 May 2016 (UTC) and 19:27, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. With respect to Wavelength, only two of those lists you've cited as WP:OTHERSTUFF are quite comparable to this one (the last two) - every other list you've cited there is a verifiable list, with an obvious qualifying threshold, with clear scope to be updated and to cite external sources as to its completeness. This list, on the other hand, is - per the intro - essentially your handy bookmark list of Wikipedia articles on sites which have multilingual interfaces, with the qualifying criteria to be determined by your own definition of "multilingual interface". How do we know you've not missed any? How do we know if it's up to date, since nobody has bothered checking every website with a Wikipedia article in the last 20 minutes to see if they've rolled out a new multilingual interface and kept an up-to-date verifiable third-party source noting the same? How do we know that your own definition of what counts as "an interface in more than one language" matches mine? I think that's what people mean by the list falling on WP:LISTN as trivial - it's not that they find the subject matter trivial per se, it's that it's pretty arbitrary, in a way that all but two of your examples aren't. Now, as a category, I believe this could still be quite a useful resource - if you've verified a site has a multilingual interface, its article can go in the category. If you see an article in the category where the subject site doesn't actually qualify, you can take it out. But I don't see what benefit the list has as a standalone article; can you explain why this couldn't be done better as a category, or - taking into account your comments on individual multiple languages - a series of categories (websites with Tagalog interface, websites with Finnish interface, etc etc)? ✤ Fosse 8 ✤ 16:20, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here are my answers to your four questions. (1) This list, like many other lists on Wikipedia, makes no claim to be complete in its inclusion of entries. (2) This list makes no claim to be up to the minute in the details for each entry. Additional information is in my post of 21:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC). (3) The expression "interface language" is unambiguous, and it matches the sense used for Category:Multilingual websites. (4) I explained the advantage of a list in my post of 23:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC).
—Wavelength (talk) 19:13, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_multilingual_websites

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