The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The possibility of this article being changed to a Redirect can be discussed on the article talk page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

John Harbord, 8th Baron Suffield[edit]

John Harbord, 8th Baron Suffield (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Reads like a genealogy entry: no real claims for notability, just a title he held for a couple of years. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:43, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility and United Kingdom. Shellwood (talk) 12:00, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Baron Suffield. This particular baron seems not to have done anything besides being born and dying. Per Hansard, he never took his seat in Parliament. Jahaza (talk) 22:47, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Whether he took his seat or not is irrelevant. He was a member of the Lords and therefore meets WP:POLITICIAN. He does have a short obituary in The Times. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 11:31, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. If he has a short obituary in The Times, by all means it should be cited here if it contains any useful information. This person died at a fairly young age (38) in 1945, but he doesn't seem to have died in active World War II service. If he didn't take up his seat in the House of Lords (which he inherited in 1943), perhaps he was engaged in some service for the war effort, but I can't find any relevant information about him online beyond what is already in this article. What this article says doesn't seem to warrant much more than a redirect to Baron Suffield, but maybe there are print sources which could improve the article. As of yet, I don't know. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:41, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - as a member of the House of Lords. That he had not yet taken his seat before his death is parallel to NPOL's specific inclusion of "people who have been elected to such offices [in national legislatures] but have not yet assumed them". Ingratis (talk) 03:09, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• When was he "elected"? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I said "parallel to" - he succeeded to a seat rather than being elected to it, but the seat was still in a national legislature, and the principle is the same. Ingratis (talk) 05:47, 17 November 2022 (UTC).[reply]

No, it isn't. Politicians work to get elected, expounding their positions, then actually enacting legislation, generating media attention. Somebody just being handed a seat on a plate, then not even bothering to show up, is hardly the same. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did being a member of the pre-reform Lords make someone a full member of the national legislature of the UK? Yes, it did, and he was, so NPOL is met - that's all that's relevant. Everything else is your own subjective view, for which there is no room in NPOL or any requirement here. Ingratis (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My subjective view? Have you actually read NPOL? It has two criteria, neither of which he remotely comes close to satisfying:

(1) "Politicians ...", so instant fail.

(2) "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage. Triple fail. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:04, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, being a member of the Lords made one a full fledged member of a national legislature. But the question is what makes one a "member". For instance, it's clear that those who acceded to a title but were not yet 21 were not members. Then there are a bunch of edge cases. What about those for whom it's accepted that they acceded to a title but they never proved it? What if they never received a writ of summons? What if they never took the oath? And I'm not in favor of deleting the article entirely, but suggesting that with minimal information and minimal importance, it's probably sufficient to merge the topic into Baron Suffield. Jahaza (talk) 06:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The subjectivity, @Clarityfiend, is in your peculiar personal definition of what a politician is in this context. The House of Lords is an integral part of the UK Parliament and its members are integral to the UK political and legislative process and members of a national legislature, which is good enough as a sensible definition of a politician to meet NPOL. @Jahaza: the only one of your "what ifs" that apparently applies here is the last one, which as I said before can be seen as parallel to NPOL's "people who have been elected to such offices [in national legislatures] but have not yet assumed them". Ingratis (talk) 06:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per WP:POLOUTCOMES - whether or not you liked the system, Lords inherited seats in their parliament. Bearian (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.