The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

• Note: comments moved from above discussion of Milo, to avoid muddying of issue

Yes, and I responded to you here. Please don't respond with groundless ad hominem attacks every time your behavior comes under scrutiny. MastCell 22:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You admitted on ANI to creating a sockpuppet which you used only to comment at Barrington Hall, and I have left numerous articles to avoid you, as you aware. The WP:STALK evidence is very clear in your case, and I think you have gambled that I would not report you because you know I don't want to have anything to do with you, not even an ANI case reporting you for wikistalking. But I would do it at this point, and ask any admins who are paying attention to bar Mastcell from stalking me. (Especially because he has done so twice now in order to escalate disputes at Barrington Hall/is having a dispruptive effect on the article.) This should be clearly marked as a separate issue from Milo if it continues, and moved to a WP:STALK complaint against Mastcell.-Cindery 22:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Cindery, the "sockpuppet" situation you're referring to was reported (by me) at AN/I and received admin attention here. As far as my "disruptive" effect on the article, I invite any and all to review my contributions at Talk:Barrington Hall (I've made no edits to the article itself), and everywhere on Wikipedia for that matter. Cindery, your claim to the moral high ground on matters of disruption and sockpuppetry is tenuous, at best, and since you've shown no lack of vindictiveness, I can only assume you haven't "reported" me because I have not, in fact, violated WP:STALK, WP:DE, or any other policy. MastCell 22:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I have reported you because you stalked me from Emergency contraception to Depo Provera. In November, I left all birth control articles, specifically to avoid you. (And I was an excellent contributor to those articles, so it was a loss for Wikipedia). You then stalked me to Barrington Hall, using a sockpuppet. When I inquired on my talkpage in general about who "Girondin" was, you admitted on ANI to being Girondin. Your "confession" was archived by JMabel, in case I wanted to make an issue of it. Barrington Hall is an article you have never made an edit to, and which you aware I will not leave. You crop up at this article only during disputes, to escalate them. You should be barred from stalking me to any articles, but Barrington Hall in particular.-Cindery 23:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a timeline for this stalking and diffs to back up your position? How recent was this? Spartaz 23:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Much of the evidence can be found here: [22]-Cindery 23:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Its nearly a month since then. Have you anything more recent to report? --Spartaz 23:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, please actually click on the "diffs" supplied there, and judge for yourself whether I was in fact being disruptive. MastCell 23:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, but I just ignore him when he comments elsewhere. I will dig up the diffs. What I am concerned about is Barrington, because it really gives the creeps--he know he's "cornering" me at an article I'm personally committed to, and he shows up only to try yo escalate disputes. The recent diffs are all on the Barrington Hall talkpage. Someone else already pointed out to him "perhaps you are editing the wrong article," to which Mastcell responded with WP:OWN b.s, I think because he thought I wouldn't report him-- reporting him means having to be involved with him. For him, it's a win-win situation. I just want him to leave me alone, I already left all the birth control articles, and his presence at Barrington Hall is making things worse for everybody, not just me.-Cindery 23:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: here is a good example of him wikistalking, me just ignoring him. (Everyone else ignored him as well.) This was an ANI complaint started by J.Smith, in which J. Smith, Nick, and Guy were all involved, but dropped it for obvious good reasons. To their credit, they admitted they weren't unbiased, since they were all involved in the big You Tube/EL controversy at EL, taking the opposite position from me. Mastcell appeared at the end to try to continue the argument (and by doing so let me know that he was reading/stalking all of my contributions to EL, saying, in essence, "I am following every one of your edits, I read everything you write, and I will chime in if I think it will bother you, or make a situation worse,": [23]-Cindery 00:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC) And here is a link to the entire discussion, so you can see his comment in context:[24]

I started to respond, but since the above is mostly personal attacks and bad faith, maybe I'll just wait for diffs. It's all at Talk:Barrington Hall, if anyone cares. MastCell 23:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The point is that if it has been well-estabished that you and so and so don't get along, so and so has left articles where they were a regular editor to avoid you, and asked to be left alone, you should try to stay away from them--not stalk them. That's disruptive in and of itself. As for your "de-escalation" absurdity, no, it does not de-escalate disputes if you join them when they are heated and unbalanced, and you join on the unbalanced side against someone who has already asked to be left alone and pointedly avoids you. Since you stalked the EL issue and the EL You Tube issue at Barrington Hall specifically, you were already aware that the side you were joining was the "EL" side--editors who are not neutral, and arguably not disputing the issue at hand. So, seeing a bunch of people disgruntled that the You Tube link was allowed to stay try to pick a fight about something else, and deciding "hey, this would be a good time for a stalker to join! That would de-escalate the issue, if I sided with the disgruntled EL people!" is ridiculous, and you know it. Now everyone else knows, too.-Cindery 03:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd refer the reader to the following diffs: [25], [26], which are my responses to her initial charges of "Wikistalking" and an attempt to de-escalate any conflict we had. Both were deleted by Cindery, with an edit summary describing them as "further harassment". I'd also suggest that my input at Depo Provera was not disruptive, and would note that you also "left all birth control articles" at a point where other editors (besides the two of us) were getting involved and a consensus was developing against some of your more strident edits. Perhaps most importantly, I'd invite anyone to review my input at Talk:Barrington Hall, which was aimed at de-escalation. But isn't this more appropriate for WP:DR? MastCell 23:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: and if you read what I wrote to him in those diffs, hopefully the irony of him providing a message in which I asked to be left alone, which he refused to honor, as evidence that he is not wikistalking me months later to is not lost.-Cindery 01:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Everyone agrees that my contributions to Emergency contraception. Mifepristone. amd Depo Provera were stellar. You have wikistalked me, and I consequently left all those articles to avoid you. Then you created a sockpuppet to stalk me to Barrington Hall, to escalate a dispute with baiting, uncivil language. Now you have returned to Barrington Hall, and are doing the same thing. You should leave me (and the article talkpage) alone.-Cindery 23:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I really have nothing else to say about this. For every further personal attack you make, just assume that I respond by disputing your charges, noting that others at the talk page don't agree with you ([27], [28]), and referring any interested parties to review your behavior on Wikipedia. It will save time and space, and I can move on to more productive things. Think Ford Prefect asking Prosser to lie in the mud in front of the bulldozer in place of Arthur Dent. MastCell 04:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It's very clear that you should stop stalking me. If you do it again, I will note it immediately at the location with a link to this page and make another report. -Cindery 04:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

YOU need to stop assuming bad faith. Someone uses an alternate account for a legitimate purpose, and you immediately jump on it and start calling it wikistalking. You have no proof for your claims. Therefore, stop calling it such unless you have much, much, more proof than flimsy speculation. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 04:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that he only used the sockpuppet to make inflammatory uncivil comments to me. (And he admitted they were uncivil.) That's a nice story--I invented this sock puppet for some noble purpose, but then I accidentally only used it to harass you?

• Let's also note that I left all the birth control articles/Wikipedia entirely for a month, and when I returned, it was to Barrington Hall. Mastcell's first edit ever to Barrington Hall talkpage occurred then, after I left all the birth control articles--since he could no longer harass me there. Thinking I would ignore/avoid him, since I was actively avoiding him, he used a sockpuppet.-Cindery 05:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

And the stalking continues in spite of this complaint:

Per WP:STALK, you should not be here. [9]. Cease your disruption at this article. Do not stalk other editors.-Cindery 04:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC) It almost feels like you're trying to bully me (and Localzuk, and J.smith, and Milo) with ad hominem attacks and accusations of ulterior motives. There is actually constructive discussion going on below about the issues which got this page protected. Why not contribute to it? MastCell 04:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC) You're a special case all by yourself of WP:STALK. Why are you harassing and stalking someone who completely avoids you? It's not helping the article. As Astanhope said "you are editing the wrong article." -Cindery 05:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

(Note I am the author of most of the "constructive discsussion below.") -Cindery 05:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

So, he makes admittedly incivil mistakes a month ago, and now you make accusations based on events way long past? Ludicrous. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

And the quote you give us is a great example of irony: You say that you won't discuss with him because he violated WP:STALK (a flimsy pretext in itself), and when he asks you to stop, you continue with accusations of WP:STALK and hound him wherever he goes. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, I completely avoid him,l eft all articles I previously edited, and did not even make the prior ANI report I should have made about stalking because I didn't want to interact with him; I just want him to leave me alone. He's fixated on me, he has been for some time, and it gives me the creeps. "A month ago" shows a pattern--he has been stalking me for a while. If he doesn't stop, I will point out that he's doing it every time he does it, with a link to this page. -Cindery 05:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• I am of the opinion that Cindery is disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. Cindery - let it go. if someone really is wikistalking you, someone will notice, especially after this AN post. You're only digging yourself into a hole here, really - for if an admin is to take any action in this case, they would have to consider the actions of both parties, and your actions have been less than stellar. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 05:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

AStanhope has noticed. I haven't advertised that I have a stalker, because I hoped he would go away if I ignored him. but he should leave me alone. "If you find that you can't get along with someone, perhaps it is best to avoid them," per Wiki--not stalk them after they leave all the articles they used to edit in order to avoid you.-Cindery 05:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you have proof that he's doing it right now? --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit conflict):::::I posted above what he posted to the Barrington talkpage during this discussion. (Around the same time he said he had nothing more to say on the subject, and I said I would point out his stalking in the future if he did it again, he posted to Barrington talkpage. While this discussion was/is ongoing.) There's no benefit to Wikipedia in him stalking me; there are a million other articles for him to edit, etc. Again, I completely avoid him and left articles to which I was a significant and productive contributor just to avoid him--there's no need for him to stalk me to articles he doesn't edit at all, let alone to join disputes, use sockpuppets to make inflammatory remarks, etc.-Cindery 05:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see him stalking you; I do see, however, you harassing him. Unless you will provide convincing diffs instead of futile rhetoric, I will hold this opinion. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Less rhetoric, more proof, please, Cindery. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 05:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Following people --who leave articles to avoid you and ask to be left alone-- to articles you don't edit is stalking.-Cindery 05:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not proof, that's rhetoric. Proof in the form of diffs, please, or your complaint will be dismissed as frivolous. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Starting from when? (To establish that I contributed 60 citations--half the research--to Emergency contraception, while he contributed only to the talkpage, in comments addressed only to me, I could provide diffs, but there would be hundreds. It's boring research, too. A glance at the edit history of the article and the talkpage will give you the overall picture. I'll give you a diff which shows a clear personal attack on me which I did not report, [29] and includes a statement from me that I would report him for harassment, and points out that I had already asked him not to address me on my talkpage because he was overly emotionally engaged with/fixated on me. I never reported him--I just left. The story is: after a fairly minor disagreement at Emergency contraception, he stalked me to Depo Provera, so I left Depo Provera, after expressing concern that he had imported anger from the EC dispute directly to Depo. He was very emotionally overangaged on my talkpage, so I asked him to disengage/leave me alone, stick to articles. He then devoted all his time to harassing me on the talkpage of Emergency contraception until I left. After I left, he stalked me to Barrington Hall.)-Cindery 06:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• And here is a recent diff of his response to User:Astanhope, who told Mastcell, "perhaps you are editing the wrong article. I think you are needed elsewhere.":[30] -Cindery 06:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I see no personal attacks by MastCell, but I see instances of incivility by you. Though minor, you are now only serving to discredit yourself, not the person you are disagreeing with. I find your post of "Sorry, you just have no case" particularly interesting. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 06:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Cindery, you keep saying you "left articles to avoid me" and that I "harassed you away from articles". It seems a little incongruous that someone who dishes out as much abuse as you is so thin-skinned as to be chased away by our relatively mild (in the grand scheme of things) content disputes at emergency contraception or Depo Provera. So I just took a look at the chronology. Your last edit to Emergency contraception was Dec. 1. Your next edit was to post a Wikibreak notice. You then returned early from your break specifically to fight about YouTube and managed to accrue 3 blocks in rapid succession. After which you wrote that you would no longer contribute constructively to Wikipedia, and would limit your involvement to a campaign to de-sysop someone you had a disagreement with (and for good measure, went after Essjay, who had run a checkuser case on you). And now here we are. So to claim that you left emergency contraception to avoid me is convenient for you at the moment, but it seems equally likely that the above sequence of events, which had little or nothing to do with me, was responsible. MastCell 06:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, look, I'm fairly thick-skinned, but Cindery's now made dozens of edits today calling me a "stalker". You've presented your case. If you want to add more diffs, do it. But further unsupported accusations are really just personal attacks, and at this point I'd ask that they be treated as such. MastCell 06:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This is about you, and the fact that you are stalking me, and that it serves no good purpose for Wikipedia. (Anyone with the patience to read your 40 pages of nitpicking harassment on the Emergency Contraception page will want to leave that article too.)

But I will address what you have said, for the benefit of readers, with the caveat that it does not mean I will allow you sidetrack focus off of your stalking.

• 1. I had a sterling rep prior to the block--which was one extended block, and if I wasn't already disgusted enough by you to have left all the articles I used to edit, I would have contested the blocks, as the first, for "npa" was extremely weak. The block was for a draft of an RfC against Nick on my talkpage. The next person to make a draft saw their draft deleted and protected from recreation. There was definitely concerted interest in preventing people from organizing transparently to file an RfC against Nick. If I had intended to "personally attack" Nick, I would have left a message on his talkpage. Putting together an RfC is not a personal attack.

• 2. User:Mumblio is not a sockpuppet, he is a human being. His unblock request and his letter to Essjay were ignored. No one "went after" Essjay--it was pointed out that he ignored an email in the hope that he would reply. Mumblio, incidentally, interviewed a lawyer this week, in his capacity as a journalist, who turned out to represent a member of the Foundation. (They traded stories and gossip.) He does idly sometimes want to contribute again--about some guy named Gene Savoy. He thinks the lawyer will help him. I told him just to create another account and stay away from me (his home IP is not blocked.) He likes the name "Mumblio," though. He was blocked after making a single comment re the Barrington You Tube dispute.

• 3. Yes, after you, and then that, I was completely disgusted, and I still am--I agree with a lot of "Why Wikipedia is not so Great." Nevertheless, I followed through on the Nick RfC, and the EL issues (I felt somehwat better about Wikipedia at the Foundation level after the Foundation's comments on that, but still feel there are too many people-with-problems.) I also massively improved Rheingold Beer--it's hard to resist improving articles sometime, even if one agrees Wikipedia is not so great because of the people.

In closing, maybe I haven't made myself clear enough about your stalking: you give me the creeps. Leave me alone. I will never like you. You crossed the line when you stalked me to Depo Provera and then refused to stop posting on my talkpage after I asked--your emotional over-engagement was the creepiest thing that has ever happened to me on Wikipedia. There is no chance I will ever change my mind and want to have anything to do with you if only you stalk me enough. I know that you feel rejected. That is not my problem. Invest emotionally in something in the real world. What part of stay away from me don't you understand? The "dispute resolution" that you desire/keep asking for, where I end up liking you is never_going_to_happen. The way to resolve this is for you to stay away from me. I left all the birth control articles--you can stop stalking me.-Cindery 06:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Comparison of contributions[edit]

Out of curiosity, I've tried to compare the contributions of both of these editors. I don't promise that this is all correct, but I've tried to match pages that both have edited in their past 1000 edits, to see who was 'first'. None of this proves or disproves anything, but just in case its interesting to anyone.

First instance of each user editing at the same page:

1. Depo_Provera

   2006-11-03 23:01 MastCell

   2006-11-16 02:49 Cindery

2. Emergency_contraception

   2006-11-02 19:11 MastCell

   2006-11-11 01:50 Cindery

3. Mark_McClellan

   2006-11-11 01:38 MastCell

   2006-11-11 19:32 Cindery

4. Mifepristone

   2006-11-11 22:02 Cindery

   2006-12-19 18:49 MastCell

5. Talk:Barrington_Hall

   2006-12-07 07:06 Cindery

   2007-01-17 06:43 MastCell

6. Talk:Emergency_contraception

   2006-11-02 19:03 MastCell

   2006-11-11 01:57 Cindery

7. Talk:Mifepristone

   2006-11-12 03:34 Cindery

   2006-12-19 19:40 MastCell

8. User_talk:Cindery

   2006-11-07 05:28 MastCell

   2006-11-13 07:42 Cindery

9. User_talk:Milo_H_Minderbinder

   2007-01-17 19:49 MastCell

   2007-01-19 20:30 Cindery

10. User_talk:William_M._Connolley

    2006-12-21 07:02 Cindery

    2007-01-17 19:44 MastCell

11. User_talk:Wizardry_Dragon

    2007-01-18 00:22 MastCell

    2007-01-20 05:44 Cindery

12. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard

    2006-11-21 19:49 Cindery

    2007-01-15 18:32 MastCell

13. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents

    2006-11-28 23:44 MastCell

    2006-12-21 01:14 Cindery

14. Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Sir_Nicholas_de_Mimsy-Porpington

    2006-12-29 17:12 Cindery

    2007-01-04 21:54 MastCell

Checked MastCell back to 20:34, 26 October 2006. (1000 edits) MastCell was 'first' 8 times.

Checked Cindery back to 01:50, 11 November 2006. (1000 edits) Cindery was 'first' 6 times.

Regards, Ben Aveling 09:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Your diffs don't make any sense--at Depo Provera, for example, I was a long-time contributor--Mastcell showed up there 30 minutes after the dispute at Emergency contraception (and a day after I sent a message to another editor saying that article meant something to me). After he was (and admitted he was) "more argumentative" than he should be, I left. His knowledge that I edited that article didn't come from the article. At emergency contraception, I returned after a long break and didn't even notice him until he fixated on me/began responding directly to me. Your Barrington diffs don't take into account his sockpuppet, Girondin, in December...and so on.-Cindery 10:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

...and your diffs for Milo's talkpage, William M. Connelly's talkpage, and the admin noticeboard refer to instances in which one or the other of us was discussing something completely unrelated/wasn't aware of the other. (But the idea of "first" leaves out the concept of "repsonse"--so while you have included two completely unrelated comments we made on ANI, you have left out his responses to me on ANI.)-Cindery 10:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. This is looking only at the fact of editing. For example, it 'shows' that MastCell was first to your talk page, which clearly isn't true. It's just that in his past 1000 edits, he has some edits on your talk page that are older than any of your past 1000 edits, so he appears to be 'first'. Regarding Depo Provera, all my report says is that he too is a long time contributor. That doesn't mean he wasn't stalking, it just provides an alternate explaination for why he might be at the page - he probably already had it watchlisted. I guess I could list all of your edits at each page, would that be more useful? It might be quite long. What about I take this to your talk page? Anyone interested can follow us there. Regards, Ben Aveling 10:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• This is an example of a meaningful comparison: I left on Dec. 1. I returned on Dec 20--to the Barrington Hall talkpage. (an article I have edited for a while, far away from birth control articles.) Mastcell made his first appearance there on Dec 21--as a sockpuppet.-(How would he know I was back if he weren't stalking me, etc.)Cindery 10:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

He might have seen your edit at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. More likely he may saw that you had edited your own talk page. What I can say is that you didn't edit any other pages that I would expect him to have on his watchlist, based only on his last 2000 edits. Below are all the edits from either of you on pages that you have both edited, from when you left to when his sock appeared at Barrington Hall. At a complete guess, he either followed your contributions or the link on your user page. And I'm going to log off. Back tomorrow. Regards, Ben Aveling 12:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: thanks, Ben. I would like to point out that there was no link to Barrington Hall on my userpage at the time. As you have noted that I didn not return to any articles I previously edited/that might be on his watchlist, I think it is safe to guess that he was stalking my edits.-Cindery 21:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• • No, that's not what I said. He edited your talk page in November, so it's quite likely that he knew you were back as soon as you edited it. I'll annotate below. For me, there are two issues here, of which I'm only looking at one, but you should consider them both. The issue I'm not looking at is what did he say, was it valid? The issue I am looking into is why did he say it? Was he following you, and why? There are valid reasons for following people. For example, I'm following you both around at the moment for what I hope is a valid reason - to try to help you both contribute better to Wikipedia. But rather than you and I guessing, let's just ask him. MastCell, I assume you're reading this. What took you to Barrington Hall? Regards, Ben Aveling 22:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

1. 2006-12-07 06:55 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
2. 2006-12-07 06:57 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
3. 2006-12-07 07:06 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
   • Last edit by Cindery
4. 2006-12-08 05:27 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
5. 2006-12-15 18:20 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
6. 2006-12-17 00:25 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
7. 2006-12-18 23:25 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
8. 2006-12-19 19:40 MastCell Talk:Mifepristone
9. 2006-12-20 18:21 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
10. 2006-12-20 18:22 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
11. 2006-12-20 18:32 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
12. 2006-12-20 18:43 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
13. 2006-12-20 18:58 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
14. 2006-12-20 21:57 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
15. 2006-12-20 21:59 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
16. 2006-12-20 22:02 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
17. 2006-12-20 23:29 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
    • Cindery returns
18. 2006-12-20 23:46 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
19. 2006-12-21 00:18 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
20. 2006-12-21 00:30 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
21. 2006-12-21 01:14 Cindery Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents
22. 2006-12-21 01:23 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
23. 2006-12-21 04:01 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
24. 2006-12-21 04:59 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
25. 2006-12-21 06:42 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
26. 2006-12-21 07:02 Cindery User_talk:William_M._Connolley
27. 2006-12-21 07:29 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
28. 2006-12-21 22:58 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
    • Cindery edits her own talk page
29. 2006-12-21 23:08 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
30. 2006-12-21 23:16 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
31. 2006-12-21 23:34 Girondin Talk:Barrington_Hall
    • 36 minutes later, the puppet makes its first edit
32. 2006-12-21 23:35 Girondin Talk:Barrington_Hall
33. 2006-12-21 23:42 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
34. 2006-12-21 23:49 Girondin Talk:Barrington_Hall

• Note that his reapperance at talk:Barrington Hall was January 17th, and his mea culpa about the sockpuppet harassment was Dec 25 (and the long notes re his previous wikistalking, in which I stated "I completely avoid you.) There's nothing innocent about returning to the page three weeks later.-Cindery 11:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Girondin? I'll check, see what I can see. Just let me do the washing up first. Cheers, Ben Aveling 10:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice if there was a way to get a count of the mainspace edits I made to emergency contraception vs. the mainspace edits he made (and a count of his talkpage edits) for November. Is that possible?-Cindery 11:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

In the mainspace for that page in November, you made 220 edits and he made 48. On the talk page you made 159 and he made 88. Why do you ask? Do I want to know? Regards, Ben Aveling 12:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Unwanted attention[edit]

I looked at the contributions from Girondin and can't relate this to stalking. Stalking should involve some form of harrassment. It looks like a normal content dispute to me.

In this interaction above girondin is trying to explain to Cindery the ins-and-outs of wikipedia. It borders on being helpful!!! Closer to a mentor than a stalker. David D. (Talk) 22:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

He found this page by stalking my edits, used a sockpuppet to make comments he admitted were uncivil, during a dispute. (And clearly was not much of a "mentor" as WP:SIG doesn't advise having a username and sig which are not obviously the same to the casual reader--it can be considered disruptive. There's no reason a user couldn't apply right now to register the username "Nearly Headless Nick," as it is not registered to anyone, but the sig of Mimsy.) Let's also note that you are currently involved in the Barrington Hall dispute.-Cindery 22:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:SIG is not policy as far as I am aware. Many users have signatures that differ from their user account. The fact he was trying to point this out to you was quite helpful considering your first post in that section. The only uncivil bit is the "self congratulatory" part which is not exactly OTT given what you have on your user page, re: the "Barrington six" . [31]

My involvement in the Barrington page is due to the arguments overflowing on to this page. There is no reason why i should not edit the page and give my opinions on whether your sources are reliable, or not. David D. (Talk) 22:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Note that 1) WP:SIG states: "While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the username it represents. Signatures that obscure an account name to the casual reader may be seen as disruptive" and 2) I edited my userpage to note Barrington six, etc two days ago 3) please keep content dispute on the page of the article. Noting that you are involved in the content dispute is helpful here, in my view. Let's not confuse the issues. This is about a clear case of stalking.-Cindery 23:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Just discovered it was a recent edit (added link to my original comment for clarification) but still the fact you wrote still shows it is not an OTT observation. I repeat WP:SIG is not policy, I know what it says. Look around you and note how many other users do not follow the guideline. It is no crime, although I personally would not recommend it. [32] Also it is quite normal for people who are involved in a dipute to comment on WP:ANI, this is a place for community input. To be frank you probably need to learn a little more about how things work in wikipedia. It seems that all your disputes involve people trying to help you understand how to sucessfully contribute to wikipedia. If you refuse the advice from others on what can be considered a reliable source then you will be in many more disputes. Please listen to what other have to say, believe it not, many are trying to help your write an article that will be stable. David D. (Talk) 23:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Perception is reality[edit]

Stalking should involve some form of harrassment. --David D.

Remember though, that unwanted attention is itself harrassment. Suppose a colleague kept giving you gifts, even after you asked them stop. It's important to look at what was said, but it's also important to look at other things as well. I've looked though both users contributions at some length. I have not checked the quality of the contributions, but they do match the pattern Cindery is complaining about. At Depo Provera, Emergency contraception, Depo Provera and Talk:Emergency contraception Cindery was editing regularly, then MastCell started editing, both of them edited for a while, then Cindery stopped editing. At Mifepristone Cinder was editing then stopped, and MastCell is now editing. At Talk:Barrington Hall Cindery was and still is editing, and MastCell occasionally drops by. Let's just say that if MastCell were to show up at any more pages where Cindery is editing, I'd look badly on it. Regards, Ben Aveling 23:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest you look at the "quality of contributions", then. I stand by the fact that I've improved both Depo Provera and emergency contraception, and not disrupted either article. I explained what should have been obvious with a basic assumption of good faith here (which Cindery rejected as "further harassment"). I don't see why I need to check to see if Cindery's been at a page before I edit it, so long as I contribute constructively and don't disrupt/attack/violate policy - and I think that's a really questionable precedent to set. MastCell 23:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The short answer is "Because it would make the universe a happier place". It doesn't take long to check the last 50 edits once and it would save a lot of stress for a lot of people. Right or wrong, Cindry is convinced that you are still following her around. Regards, Ben Aveling 00:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That is a dangerous precedent to set, though well-intentioned. Should we cater to Cplot because he perceives there is a pro-government cabal on Wikipedia? No! Doing so would be absurd. Likewise, doing so here would be akin to acquiescing to disruptive forces on Wikipedia, though I do not equate Cindery to such undesirable elements. We are not here to make everyone happy, warm, and fuzzy. If we are to edit peacefully in this world, we either must swallow what bitter medicine others force down us or we grow a thicker skin. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 00:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: I do not think it is necessary that he check the last 50 edits of every new article he edits to see if I have edited there. What I would like him to stop doing is harassing me at a specific article, and following my contributions in order to make inflammatory comments, like the one at ANI regarding the You Tube/EL dispute. He doesn't need to check every article (I edit so few anyway) what he needs to is stop adressing me directly in a hostile way.-Cindery 00:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That does not explain why your sockpuppet appeared at talk:Barrington Hall a half hour after I edited my talkpage after a long break (you did not answer Ben's question about that) and it especially does not answer why you would return to the same talkpage after I pointed out that I was purposely avoiding you. There was nothing "innocent" about returning to the Barrington Hall talkpage after you used a sock there, and after I explicitly told you that I completely avoid you. That was clearly stalking and harassment, not accidentally stumbling on a page you merely hadn't noticed I had edited before--you were aware I edited that article because you had already harassed me there with a sockpuppet. -Cindery 00:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

PS. I suggest we all try not to repeat ourselves. Let's try to find the things that haven't yet been said. Regards, Ben Aveling 00:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ben, it is not harrassment to correct people who are not willing to adhere to WP:RS and WP:V. It is common for editors to try and limit the damage that such individuals bring to wikipedia. To suggest it is stalking and protect editors such as cplot flys against reason. Not supporting Mastcell now is a bad precedent to set and is the wrong thing to do, in my opinion. David D. (Talk) 13:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: David D. is heavily involved in a dispute at Barrington Hall, and has started several others, apparently after an uncivil "request for input" from Hipocrite, who was involved in the EL dispute (read towards the bottom):[33].-Cindery 22:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for the admins[edit]

Since this is being discussed here, could an admin persuade Cindery to stop bringing up her stalking accusations at Talk:Barrington Hall? We're trying to edit an article there, and repeated "go away, you're stalking me" messages just sidetrack the discussion. Thanks. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks[edit]

I feel a little ridiculous even continuing this, but if nothing else, look at WP:STALK. It defines Wikistalking as "following an editor to another article to continue disruption... the important part is the disruption." Look at emergency contraception, Depo Provera, Barrington Hall, or at any of my contributions - can anyone (besides Cindery) say that I've been disruptive, there or anywhere on Wikipedia? The User:Girondin edits are here, and were made to correct a misunderstanding in a debate I wasn't involved in. Judge for yourself if they're disruptive. The situation was reported, by me, to AN/I and discussed here. Finally, when I've said anything about Cindery here, it's been backed up by diffs. On the other hand, her posts (this one in particular) consist mostly of personal attacks and abuse. Like I said, I'm thick-skinned, but aren't there some standards, even in a dispute? MastCell 17:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikistalking[edit]

Is defined as:

"Following an editor to another article to continue disruption (also known as wikistalking) The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor."

That means that if on Dec. 25th you admit to using a sockpuppet to harass someone at an article you have never edited before, after they have left previous articles to avoid you, and you are aware of that because they write:" I completely avoid you. For you to then create a sock account and use it only to make inflammatory comments on the talkpage of an article where I returned as a regular editor and you have never before made a contribution appears to be very clear use of a sock to harass/wikistalk in the worst faith possible. What is creepy beyond-the-pale to me is that you were harassing/wikistalking someone who left articles in order to avoid you/was very actively avoiding you." [34]--returning to the same article only three weeks later is very clearly wikistalking (and harassment).-Cindery 19:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

No. I haven't been disruptive there or anywhere, a fact that others at Talk:Barrington Hall agree with ([35], [36], [37], [38], etc). These are continuing personal attacks by an editor who's been blocked for the same in the past, occurring on WP:AN/I no less. I'm asking you to stop. If you don't, I'm asking that someone put a stop to your constant, unsupported personal attacks. MastCell 19:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the regular editors at Barrington Hall do not agree with you: [39]. As for disruption, you are not only wikistalking/harassing someone at an article where only three weeks ago you used a sockpuppet to make inflammatory remarks/tried to inflame a dispute, but you are doing the same thing again: you returned to Barrington Hall precisley when the You Tube/EL people picked a fight about something else (a dispute that has no lack of contributors, and is now an extremely long thread completely out of proportion to the importance of what is being disputed.) As your ANI stalker comment [40] made apparent that you followed the You Tube/EL dispute, you aware of exactly what you are doing.-Cindery 19:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• What you need to do, which I have repeatedly pointed out, is stop stalking me, if you don't want me to point it out. There are a million articles for you to edit, and it does not serve Wikipedia for you to stalk anyone, i.e., return to any articles where you have used a sockpuppet to harass someone whom you are aware completely avoids you, as I explicitly told you I completely avoid you, and left all the articles I used to edit.-Cindery 20:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact that you see a distinction between "regular editors" and other editors is a perfect example of the attitude of ownership you and Astandhope have over the article. I have seen no disruptive behavior by Mastcell there, and based on the lack of action taken by admins it looks like they don't either. However, your continued accusations there are off-topic and becoming disruptive, please keep the whole stalking thing here and not at the article. --Milo H Minderbinder 20:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

He hasn't stalked me there in the last 16 hours or so--he stopped last night after I began pointing it out (at the article, but after this report). Hence I have not pointed out on the talkpage that he is stalking me during that time. There is a distinction between the regular editors of the article, and a small group of people leftover from the You Tube/EL dispute (and then there is Mastcell, who is in a WP:STALK category all by himself, who opportunistically joined them.) As I have just made a complaint against you, Milo, for blanking a section against consensus instead of discussing--when the consensus included all parties, even the YT/EL crew--I do not find that you are an impartial judge of whether Mastcell is wikistalking. Clearly he is. Again, he created a sockpuppet to harass me on the talkpage, was aware that I completely avoid him because I explicitly said so, and then returned to the talkpage only three weeks later, to inflame a dispute.'-Cindery 20:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that he's stalked there in the past month. You're not saying that you plan to respond to every post of his on the talk page with a stalking accusation, are you? And you're still insisting on that "blanking a section against consenus" thing, even though at least three other editors have removed that same passage and more have agreed with the deletion on the talk page? Who exactly do you feel is part of that "consensus" besides you and Astandhope? --Milo H Minderbinder 20:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

(undent) editing there at all is stalking me (perhaps you are confused that Girondin=Mastcell).-Cindery 21:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

That statement shows a blatant misunderstanding of wikistalking. "Following an editor to another article to continue disruption" is the definition you provided yourself. Now you insist that if he edits the same article as you it's stalking, even if there's no disruption? --Milo H Minderbinder 21:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You need to reread the definition--wikistaking is itself disruption, and is defined as following abother editor around.-Cindery 21:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

There's an important part of the definiton that nobody has pointed out: "This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason. The important part is the disruption - disruption is considered harmful." Cindery has shown disregard for WP:RS and WP:NOR at the article in question (not to mention WP:OWN) - I hope someone is keeping an eye on the articles she edits. It seems like there's some circular logic going on here - it's stalking because it's disruptive/it's disruptive because it's stalking. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: Milo is the subject of a complaint above which got the article protected, is not participating in discussion at the article now, and was involved in the EL dispute.-Cindery 22:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Done pointing fingers yet? It seems like everyone has dropped the issue except you. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 22:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Redux[edit]

It seems to me that this entire thread (or rather, these threads) boil down to Cindery complaining that some other users are nearly as argumentative as she is. Can we please archive this and send it to dispute resolution? Guy (Help!) 21:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This thread is about stalking. ( Let's note also that you were majorly involved in the You Tube/EL dispute, and are in no way impartial. You probably shouldn't be commenting at all without noting that--unless you're trying to derail the subject?)-Cindery 21:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"Editing there at all is stalking me?" That's interesting, but not what WP:STALK actually says ("...disruption is the important thing") and seems to fly in the face of "anyone can edit any article at any time." You've "settled" disputes in the past by bullying those you disagree with - Severa comes to mind [41] - or accusing others of harassment. That's generally not a productive way of settling disputes. But Guy is right - no one seems inclined to block me for "Wikistalking", nor to block you for your constant, unsupported attacks, so why not go to dispute resolution? It wouldn't be the first time you've filed an RfC to try to settle a score. MastCell 22:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Attempting to derail the issue with false accusations will not work. Wikistalking, again, is: Following an editor to another article to continue disruption (also known as wikistalking) The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor. As you admitted to using a sockpuppet to harass me at Barrington Hall three weeks ago, returning to that talkpage is very clearly stalking. There is no dispute to resolve: what you need to do is stop stalking me. It's very simple.-Cindery 22:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, my edit has diffs; yours has accusations. Here is what I "admitted to", which you keep misrepresenting [42]. My point was that you use accusations to bully editors with whom you have content disputes. A question to any masochistic admins who are still reading this thread: Cindery's now made nearly 75 edits in the past 24 hours containing my name and some variation of the word "Wikistalking", without providing any convincing evidence. Is there some point at which these become personal attacks that warrant preventive action? I'd like to move on, but it's hard to do so with a constant drumbeat of unfounded accusations. MastCell 22:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I have made no edits to Barrington Hall pointing out that you are stalking me, since you stopped. It's very simple: do not stalk me if you do not want me to point it out. You shouldn't be stalking anyone, period, whether they are forced to point it out or not. Do not stalk other editors.-Cindery 23:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

ENOUGH. You have not substantiated your claims, Cindery, you have merely spouted off groundless accusations on this thread. If you have definite proof, lay it out for all to see; if you don't, stop whining and avoid MastCell (MastCell, also avoid Cindery). Further harassment of MastCell (yes, I am now calling it harassment now) will be seen as disruption, and will result in a block. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 23:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

There should also be a ban on Cindery ever using the word "stalk" again, since she's used it here enough for one lifetime (71 72 73 by my count). ^_^ JuJube 23:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Resolution?[edit]

I have a proposal for both of you. MastCell, you agree not to edit Barrington Hall or any page that Cindery is editing, excluding the birth control articles. Cindery, you agree never to mention MastCell again. MastCell, you agree never to mention Cindery again. Both of you take each others' talkpages off your watch lists, as well the other pages I've proposed you agree not edit. How does that sound? Regards, Ben Aveling 23:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

That is all I want.-Cindery 00:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• (Note: his talkpage is not on my watch list; never has been.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cindery (talk • contribs) 00:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

• Since part of the problem appears to be Cindery's WP:OWN issues regarding Barrington Hall, encouraging that idea and seeming to reward behavior which enforces it seems like a lousy "compromise" to me. --Calton | Talk 00:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

All compromises are lousy. It's in the nature of the things. But it seems the best tradeoff to me. Most, maybe even all of MastCell's edits on that page are not about the Hall itself, so I suggest that it's an acceptable loss. Regards, Ben Aveling 00:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not own Barrington Hall, I am a significant contributor to that article. I think the unfair compromise (to Wikipedia) was that I left all the birth control articles already, to avoid Mastcell. It's not much to ask that all he do is desist from following me around elsewhere, esp. desist joining/inflaming a dispute against me at the talkpage of an article he has never edited, and where he has admitted to harassing me with a sockpuppet. I think Ben's suggestion was extremely balanced/fair-minded.-Cindery 00:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said ppreviously, not an admin, just a watcher, generally. However, I do agree with Calton. It seems that your solution rewards Cindery for assuming someone's out to get her, and raising a stink about it. Even worse, your solution is one sided, because it says MastCell can't edit anythign Cindery does, but not vice versa. Thus Cindery could easily use this restraining order to ruin his wiki-life, by editing his more usual haunts, and then run for admins when he goes to them. While I'm sure the admins would see through it quickly, why set up for more AN/I filings about this? I think Cindery set herself up for most of this by giving the statements about her personal relationship with the subjects of the article, and it came back to bite her. ThuranX 01:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not one-sided, as I already avoid all articles he edits/avoid him entirely, and will be happy to state that I would never go near any article he edits--I have clearly stated since late December that I want nothing to do with him, nor have I edited any articles he edits. (Thanks for claiming I "set myself up"--nobody deserves be stalked/harassed; there is no possible justification for it.) If he's truly interested in "conflict de-escalation," the very simple thing to do is stay away from me. It takes zero effort.-Cindery 01:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with Calton as well. The article has serious ownership issues, and I don't think using stalking as an excuse to make people who aren't "regular editors" go away just encourages it. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

A few things:

• I haven't violated any policy or guideline. I've been civil and content-focused at Talk:Barrington Hall, and I've been as civil as possible here. Every claim I've made here is backed up by diffs. (Compare my behavior here to Cindery's). Therefore, I don't see why I should be constrained, every time I'd like to edit an article, to first make sure Cindery hasn't been there first.
• I cited the diffs above to indicate that Cindery has a history of responding to content disputes by bullying editors she disagrees with. That's what's happening here, and I think your suggested resolution only rewards such behavior.
• I don't have any plans to comment further at Talk:Barrington Hall, because my concerns (which had to do with WP:V and WP:RS) are shared by a number of other editors there and are being addressed by them, and contrary to Cindery's assertions, I really don't enjoy dealing with her. But at the same time, I reserve the right to comment civilly and constructively there, or anywhere on Wikipedia. If, as Cindery suggests, she considers my very presence on the same page as her to be "stalking" and a policy violation, regardless of the content of my contributions, then I'd suggest that the issue here is primarily Cindery's and not mine.

Here's my proposal for resolution:

• If Cindery has a problem with me, follow WP:DR. Isn't that why it exists?
• In the meantime, further unfounded, unsupported accusations against me should be treated as personal attacks. Is this an acceptable edit anywhere, under any circumstances (much less on WP:AN/I, from an editor with a long history of disruption and personal attacks)? I'm patient, but 70+ edits calling me a "stalker" in 24 hours, without any convincing evidence, seems to me to cross a line. MastCell 01:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Strongly seconded • Giving in to unfounded abusive claims of stalking is counterproductive and promotes a negative environment on Wikipedia, where if one yells loud enough people will get their way. This is in no way desirable, and should be avoided. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 01:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
• Note: I think the sockpuppet and Ben's diffs are evidence aplenty. But, as I state below "I avoid you; you avoid me" is perfectly acceptable, and not unilateral.-Cindery 01:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• I don't have any plans to comment further at Talk:Barrington Hall--that's good. As long as you continue to have those "plans" and do not respond directly to me anywhere else, we're done here. I avoid you; you avoid me.-Cindery 01:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to avoid me; you're welcome anywhere on Wikipedia (including any page I edit) so long as you're civil and not disruptive, as everyone should be. That was my point. And as I said above, I reserve the right to comment civilly and constructively anywhere on Wikipedia. If I hear my name and the word "stalking" or "harassment" in the same sentence from you again, it should be in an WP:RfC, WP:RfM, WP:RfArb, or other form of WP:DR. Those caveats aside, like I said I have no plans to involve myself further at Talk:Barrington Hall, so hopefully we're done here. MastCell 01:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The first 2 steps of DR are Talk and Disengage. We're doing the first, and I think we're close to agreeing to do the second. If by "have no plans" you mean "plan not to" then yes, I think we're done. I assume you've removed Barringon from your watchlist? And Cindery's homepage? Regards, Ben Aveling 02:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I've made it very clear that I want nothing to do with you, intentionally avoid you, and that the DR contact you want with me is never going to happen. If you stalk me again, I will report it to ANI again. The solution that's best for Wikipedia is: I avoid you; you avoid me. Goodbye.-Cindery 01:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Stalk you "again"? Sigh. I'll let that (presumably) final completely unsupported personal attack slide. It might demonstrate a commitment to disengagement if you changed this, but that's your call. I've said my piece above. Good night. MastCell 04:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Stay away from me. Disengage. Start by not reading my userpage.-Cindery 06:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• I'd caution you both that if this becomes a game of "can't touch me", you're likely to both be blocked. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 06:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

So Cindery is suggesting that it's OK to attack me on her userpage, and that if I complain about it I'm continuing to "stalk" her. Got it. "Disengagement" isn't unilateral. By the way, if any of you ever find yourselves in my shoes - if a disruptive editor with a history of settling content disputes by bullying or accusing others of "harassment", who has a personal dislike for you, comes to AN/I and starts what amounts to an attack thread, calling you a "stalker" 70+ times with the amount of "evidence" Cindery's presented here - I hope that someone steps in with a preventive block somewhere around the 20th or 30th personal attack. It's surprsingly hard to disengage unilaterally in the face of continuing attacks and abuse - especially as these things tend to acquire a certain believability through repetition, regardless of the complete lack of evidence. By the way, I apologize to the community for taking up so much space here with this. MastCell 17:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Strive to be better than disruptive users, not the same, or worse. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.