@Novem Linguae:

1. Regarding this, you are very welcome to invite people to your Discord channel and I can see that adding this link here has saved you a lot of time. But this template is shared by all admins and I think it's inappropriate to force all of us to recommend a particular piece of commercial chat software. How about we make it an optional parameter?
2. Here, Kudpung's old "accuracy not speed" maxim is repeated (paraphrased) in the header of Special:NewPagesFeed, which is one of the first pages linked in this message, so there seems little value in repeating it here.
3. And Take your time to patrol each page, including checking for copyright violations using Earwig's copyright violation detector, checking for duplicate articles, and evaluating sources (both in the article, and if needed, via a search engine) for compliance with the general notability guideline – is something you added last July, so please be mindful of WP:BRD. I removed it because it is general patrolling advice rather than a specific thing the recipient can do now, and as such I think it's better presented together with other such advice on a community-vetted guideline page (i.e. WP:NPP). Otherwise, why pick out these specific points? Why not "remember that G4 only applies to AfD'd articles or "remember to check for compliance with Wikipedia:Article titles"? This is especially true when reviewers might disagree on whether it's good advice – remember that this template is putting words in the mouths of other people.

Bear in mind that it's not the norm to regurgitate guidance in these messages. That's not an effective way to emphasise it. Rather we should tell the recipient plainly what has changed, what to do next, and where to get further information. – Joe (talk) 06:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. I'm not too inclined to make it an optional parameter. Making it opt in means no one would ever use it, since this template is almost always placed by user scripts that wouldn't use the opt in parameter.
2. I can't remember if I originally wrote this bullet or not, but I'd like to keep it because it falls into the category of "patrolling tips" that I'd like to emphasize, and not just have buried in the NPP tutorial. New patrollers feeling like they have to make a decision on every article that crosses their desk even if they are unsure feels to me like it might be a common thing, and something that we can give a pro tip about to keep them out of trouble.
3. This is also one of the "patrolling tip" bullets, again trying to keep new NPPs from patrolling poorly and in a manner that could generate complaints and get their NPP revoked. Copyright checks and evaluating sources are the bread and butter of NPP, and it doesn't hurt to give this a little emphasis. I'll also add that I don't consider this bullet/text to be a bold edit anymore (the "bold" part of WP:BRD) since it's been stable for 8 months.

I see you reverted #2 again. We can leave that out for now as a compromise if you want. I can live with the template in this current state. Otherwise I think we need to place some please see links on other pages and get more editors involved in this discussion. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:06, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're kind of stonewalling here, Novem. You haven't responded to my point about why other admins (myself included) should be expected to recommend the commercial chat service that you like to use or pass on the arbitrary tips that you've found important. Saying "I like it this way" is not really conducive to reaching a consensus. If you revert good faith changes, you need to be prepared to give a reason.

By you reverted #2 again do you mean this? I reverted that (for the first time) because I hadn't removed the text you objected to me removing, I just moved it out of the bullets – it's still there, at the bottom. Are you not able to see edit summaries at the moment? I have not reverted any of the other reverts you made yesterday. – Joe (talk) 07:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're kind of stonewalling here, Novem. Replying to you point by point, in detail, and in good faith is stonewalling?

Are you not able to see edit summaries at the moment? You're right, of course. I did miss that you basically moved it into the footer. My bad. But I'll bet you could have thought of a nicer way to say this. Please try next time. –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was a straightforward question. I thought maybe you were on mobile or something.

Anyway, I'm about to process a bunch of PERM/NPR requests, and you've still not given me a reason why I ought to recommend your chat room or pass on your tips when I do so. In the interests of compromise, here's what I'll do:

1. Make the Discord point a parameter
2. Make a space for a additional remarks where you can put your patrolling tips

You're raise a good point about User:MusikAnimal/userRightsManager, but it must be possible to modify the script to allow individual admins to customise the template call. Otherwise, this template has a pretty limited number of users: if you think one of these should be the default, I suggest we do a straw poll of the admins actively working PERM/NPR to see what the majority prefer. – Joe (talk) 10:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the optional parameters. No one will use it if it is opt in. It's not worth the extra complexity. Let's just hash out the content dispute on this talk page by inviting more people to join the discussion. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No one will use it if it is opt in – the classic argument for why something shouldn't be there in the first place. – Joe (talk) 10:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I judge these complex, non-standard parameters would not be used is that user scripts do not provide a mechanism for opting in to these. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... well... there are two ways to use the params... 1. you can technically clone the userscript into your own userspace, and edit line 32, 'New page reviewer': 'New Page Reviewer granted', to 'New page reviewer': 'New Page Reviewer granted|param1|param2...',. Theoretically it should work just fine (at line 266). templates[] is referenced a couple of times in the script, but the array is used mostly as boolean checks. (it is theoretical because I was processing the logic in the codes mentally, rather than doing an actual test. heh.) 2. Have MusikAnimal update the userscript to load a predefined array in your common.js. – robertsky (talk) 11:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to your user page, you've written 21 user scripts from scratch and contributed 100 patches to Twinkle. So I'm sure you would have no problem opting in, when you use this template yourself. By implication what you're worried about is that other people won't pass on these messages for you, if you give them the choice. Which really says it all. – Joe (talk) 12:31, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If my choices are to make other people update their user scripts to support complexity that you've unilaterally added to a template, a template that is in a series of other templates that don't have this complexity, or just come to a consensus on a talk page, I choose consensus on a talk page. How many times do I have to explain this to you? –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See above section for additional discussion.

Procedural question: the above section mentions admins actively working PERM/NPR. Can non-admins participate in this discussion, or would such input be frowned upon like at PERM? ~ A412 ^talk! 19:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably everyone can participate. I'm not aware of any restrictions for editors on talk pages. If I were to hypothetically add an {{RFC}} tag to this section, it would message editors unrelated to PERM or NPP to comment here. Up to you though. If you don't have an opinion, or you feel that PERM admins are the most qualified to opine on this, you are not compelled to post here either :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course everybody can participate. However please bear in mind this is not a guideline page. We're not asking here what is and isn't good general guidance for reviewers; that belongs in WP:NPP. This template is only used by admins who grant the NPR permission (primarily through WP:PERM/NPR), to save them having to write a fresh message to every user. Looking through the last four months of PERM/NPR, the people that have used it more than once are myself (25 times), Novem Linguae (3), Extraordinary Writ (2), Hey man im josh (29), Ingenuity (12), Robertsky (4), Rosguill (11), and HJ Mitchell (12). So my comment above was just to observe that those of us who put our names to these words, as it were, have the most interest in what they say. These numbers give some context as to why I find it a little frustrating that Novem Linguae insists that the template we all use should be tailored to saving his time and communicating what he has found important. I just wanted to a copyedit a template I use a lot to be more concise and not give unnecessary/disputable advice, and it turns into a multi-part RfC... – Joe (talk) 10:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wow, I'm surprised to see I have the most. I'll give this a read through when I get a moment today and give my thoughts. Hey man im josh (talk) 10:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You've been a massive help there since you got the bit! I don't think we could have kept on top of the recent backlog drive and invitation waves otherwise. – Joe (talk) 10:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well aren't you just a sweetheart! Thanks for the kind words :) Hey man im josh (talk) 11:32, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should this template link to the NPP Discord?[edit]

Should "if you don't know, leave it for another reviewer" receive its own bullet?[edit]

Current wording: If you are not sure what to do with a page, don't review it – ask for help or leave it for another reviewer.

• Yes. This is a tip for new reviewers that makes it clear that accuracy is more important than speed. It is my reading that the community prefers accuracy over backlog-crushing. I think this needs its own bullet. The urge to just hit the "mark as reviewed" button and clear the backlog may be strong with a new patroller, and this is a pitfall that if we can help them avoid by mentioning it in this template, we should. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes. I am new to the game, and a bolder reminder would have helped me to gauge the community spirit faster. --Викидим (talk) 19:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• No as a simple matter of grammar. The bulleted list is introduced with Before you get started, please take the time to.... The fragment if you don't know, leave it for another reviewer does not follow from that. The intention with the bullets is to give a clear list of things the reviewer should do now, because otherwise they're not likely to remember to do it again. Over time it had become burdened with general advice which I thought would be more clearly presented separately, so I moved it to after the list. The intention was not to de-emphasise it—I agree that it's key advice and should be emphasised—and I think that being the last sentence in the message is emphasis. If it's not sufficient, then we could use bold text, or create a second bulleted list, or something. But please let's try to keep things in some sort of order, otherwise people just stop reading. – Joe (talk) 11:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should a reminder to check for copyright violations and evaluate sources for GNG receive its own bullet?[edit]

Current wording: Accuracy is more important than speed. Take your time to patrol each page, including checking for copyright violations using Earwig's copyright violation detector, and evaluating sources (both in the article, and if needed, via a search engine) for compliance with the general notability guideline.

• Yes. This is a tip for new reviewers that reminds them that they need to check articles for copyright violations and evaluate sources for WP:GNG. This is the bread and butter of NPP and, in my opinion, deserves a reminder. The WP:NPP tutorial is gigantic and a lot to learn, so if we can call out the most important steps of it in this template so that new reviewers don't forget, I don't see why we shouldn't. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• No. Checking for copyright is a core part of the NPP workflow, yes, but "run every article through this specific copyvio detector" is not necessarily the way to do it. "Check every article against the WP:GNG" is definitely not part of the workflow, which Novem Linguae knows full well from numerous discussions elsewhere. He recently added both points to this message, which reflects his own particular approach to NPP as a very exhaustive, notability-focused peer review. He is welcome to pursue that approach and to encourage others to do so, but if we are going to offer general patrolling tips here, in this talk page template shared by all PERM admins, they should be tips that everyone can agree on and that reflect the established guidelines at WP:NPP. However, I don't think this is really the place for that. NPP is complex, there's no way around it; you can't boil it down to a few bullet points. And if you tried, you'd have one person saying that copyvio and notability are the most important, but another saying CSD and BLP are most important, and a third saying hey don't forget about COI/UPE... better to just point people in the right direction and trust them to figure it out. – Joe (talk) 11:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]