Yella Hertzka has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
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Photo discussion[edit]
Discussion of photographs is here SusunW (talk) 20:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
GA Review[edit]
Unexplained first review
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Reviewer: SyntheticSystems (talk · contribs) 20:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC) Criteria[edit]Good Article Status - Review Criteria
A good article is—
Review[edit]
Result[edit]
References
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GA Review[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Yella Hertzka/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 13:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
I'll review this article over the next day or two. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 13:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for picking her up Thebiguglyalien. I look forward to collaborating with you in improving the article. SusunW (talk) 14:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- I've finished the review. No major issues, just the usual notes about prose and sourcing that come up at GA. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:37, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thebiguglyalien thank you! I genuinely appreciate your collaboration and thoroughness in improving the article. I think I have addressed all your points, but if we need to discuss anything further, I am happy to do so. Please ping me. (Note, I will be completely unavailable on June 12. Serious real life stuff going on.) SusunW (talk) 14:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- I corrected a few typos, and the article now meets the GA criteria. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thebiguglyalien thank you! I genuinely appreciate your collaboration and thoroughness in improving the article. I think I have addressed all your points, but if we need to discuss anything further, I am happy to do so. Please ping me. (Note, I will be completely unavailable on June 12. Serious real life stuff going on.) SusunW (talk) 14:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- I've finished the review. No major issues, just the usual notes about prose and sourcing that come up at GA. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:37, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- Well-written
- The lead is a bit too long for an article this short. Some of the less important details should be omitted to reduce it in size by about one third.
- This is more subjective, but the "women's rights" and "schools and artist colony" sections are a bit long, which might hamper readability. Would subheadings be practical in either of these sections?
- If Fuchs is her maiden name, it should be in the parenthetical in the lead.
- She founded the Wiener Frauen Klub and the Neuer Wiener Frauenklub, but it's not clear how we got from one to the other. Also, did they change the spelling of Frauen Klub from two words to one?
the club began to focus on attaining
– Could be shortened to "the club focused on attaining" for conciseness.
Hertzka and the Neuer Wiener Frauenklub went on record as opposing the conflict
– Was there anything specific about it that she opposed, or was she just upset that it was happening?
From this congress, the International Committee of Women for Permanent Peace, which would become the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF), was formed, and the Austrian members of the committee, Leopoldine Kulka and Olga Misař, were chosen.
– This sentence runs on a bit.
In Austria, Hertzka's public appearances and activities were increasingly limited as a result of rising antisemitism. In March 1938, all Jewish members of the Neuer Wiener Frauenklub were expelled.
– It might be helpful for clarity to state somewhere in here that this explicitly affected Hertzka rather than just being something that happened around her.
- I'm sorry, I'm confused – doesn't limiting her activities say that it directly impacted her? The other sections talk about how it impacted her schools and business, but for her activism, all that could really happen is that she couldn't be a voice. I think that is shown, but am happy to discuss or take suggestions. SusunW (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Hertzka co-founded with Salka Goldman the Cottage Girls' Lyceum in the Cottage Quarter of Döbling, the 19th district of Vienna, in 1903.
– I don't know if a better wording is possible, but this is a bit cluttered.
In the early years of the school's operation, it moved several times.
– This could be simplified as "The school moved several times in the early years of its operation".
Hertzka distanced herself from both Goldman and Schirmacher
– Schirmacher hasn't been mentioned since their meeting ten years prior, and it's unclear what relevance she has to Hertzka's life at this point.
She returned to Austria determined to establish the Höhere Gartenbauschule für Frauen (Higher Horticultural School for Women), but it would be several years before she did so
– Was she determined to start this specific school with this specific name? Or did she just want to start "a horticultural school for women" which eventually became that school?
- Höhere schule is a generic term used in German as far as I can tell for a secondary or tertiary school that is not a college prep school.[1]. Affixing Gartenbau to it means it was a horticultural trade school and her focus was on educating women. I have never seen it not capitalized in the sources, so maybe it's a name? On the other hand, some sources call it "Gartenbauschule für Mädchen in Wien" or "Gartenbauschule von Yella Hertzka", so maybe it is a type of school, not a name per se? so I changed it to "establish a Höhere Gartenbauschule für Frauen". Does that work?SusunW (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Hertzka often hosted garden parties, attended by many internationally known composers such as
– Why composers? I would assume it's because of her husband's work in the music industry, but the article doesn't say this explicitly.
- Neither do the sources, but I meant "To foster their work" to convey that the intent was for the parties to be mutually beneficial. Oesch says "As the wife of the director of the well-established music publishing house Universal Edition, Yella Hertzka had been at the centre of the international cultural avant-garde for many years" and that they initiated events for their friends and colleagues. (2016, pp 156-157). The source to me implies her involvement was because of the business. SusunW (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
and Hans Vetter, an architect and co-founder of the Austrian Work Association, an organization aimed at improving and professionalizing craftsmanship
– This sentence runs on, and I think this part is to blame. Details about Vetter's work probably aren't that relevant.
also located in Kaasgraben, part of Grinzing, in the Döbling district
– This description of the location is a bit wordy, especially since it's in the middle of a sentence.
The school offered training in horticulture and landscape architecture, opening the fields to women, and also gave general business and law courses, requiring students to grow and market their produce.
– Should this be two sentences?
the leading institution training women in horticulture and gardening in Austria-Hungary in the first third of the twentieth century
– This might need to be reworded. In what way was it the leading institution? And I don't usually see centuries divided into thirds; I would write "in the early decades of" or something like that.
- The source says "Yella Herzka's school became the leading training institution for women in horticulture and garden architecture in Vienna and the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy in the early twentieth century." (p 133) It doesn't define "leading" but it seems clear it was the only one or one of the only ones that admitted women as actual students. On the preceding page (p 132) it talks about the horticultural school at Eisgrub which allowed women to audit courses. The Christian Science Monitor says in 1927 there was a similar school in Bulgaria (not part of Austria-Hungary), and numerous sources say there were women's schools in England and Germany. I've changed it to say "The school offered the rare opportunity for women to achieve economic independence with training in horticulture and gardening or landscape architecture in Austria-Hungary in the early decades of the twentieth century." If that works then done. SusunW (talk) 20:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
It was closely affiliated until 1921 with
– "until 1921" should be moved to either the beginning or the end of the sentence.
In 1920, the alumni of the school founded
– This is a new paragraph, so the school's name should probably be spelled out.
she moved around twenty-five times
– "moved around" implies an indefinite amount of times. This can just say "she moved twenty-five times".
Around 1944, she moved in with activist Emmeline Pethick-Lawrence because of health concerns. She had developed a heart condition from poor nourishment and hard labor, as well as a skin disease which caused discomfort.
– Though it can be inferred from context, the use of "she" makes it unclear whether Hertzka or Pethick-Lawrence is afflicted with these ailments.
Hertzka's husband, Taussig, was murdered on 19 May 1943
– Was he killed in a random act or systematically as part of the Holocaust? "Murdered" creates the impression that it was the former.
- The phrase "her death" is repeated several times in the first few sentences of "death and legacy".
Despite her prominence
– This puts a subjective judgement in wikivoice.
also contributed to her erasure
– This is strong language and makes it seem like it was an intentional act to destroy records of her.
- (Her and every other woman of significance, yes indeed. I've written and read many, many articles for examples Elizabeth Wagner Reed, Matilda effect, about the systemic efforts by academics to erase women's accomplishments, hide them behind their husbands' works, credit someone else for their actions and omit them from the historic record. Writing women out of history was definitely intentional.) Again, I'm happy to credit it to Oesch. SusunW (talk) 21:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Corinna Oesch, who has extensively researched Hertzka's life, noted that
– Don't use "noted" to describe an author's opinion.
- Verifiable with no original research
The sources appear to be reliable and high quality. The one exception is Geschichtewiki, which appears to accept user generated content. Is this source used anywhere in the article?
Spotchecks:
- Gwinn (2010)
- p. 126 suggests that they were partners rather than Balch being an assistant.
- p. 127 mentions internationalism and pacifism, but it doesn't seem to support the sentences preceding the citation.
- Where on p. 161 does it support
Because their activities were limited by the war
- Where on p. 161 does it support
- Kraeutler et al. (2011) – Does this support that she was chair
In the 1930s
? Other uses are good.
- Krippner & Meder (2020) – All uses are good.
- Oesch (2016) – I'm not sure if
performing administrative work for it
is equal toserved as its administrator
, as the latter implies more authority than the former.
Also, there is some potential WP:Close paraphrasing from this source:
Hertzka fell into obscurity
versusYella Hertzka’s significant roles [...] had fallen into oblivion
A general lack of interest in women's history, and neglect from academics in studying women's contributions
versusA general neglect of women’s biographies
.
scattered in archives around the globe
versusdocuments concerning her are scattered around the globe
Because of the outbreak of World War I, the year after it opened
versusWhen war broke out the year after her school had opened
- Overy (2013) – It's probably fine, but I'll note that this source doesn't explicitly compare the British pacifists of WWII to the Austrian pacifists of WWI. Assuming this isn't an issue, all uses are good.
- Sekler (1985) – Good.
- Broad in its coverage
All aspects of her life appear to be covered. One instance of excessive detail: Emil was hired by Universal Edition in 1901 and promoted to management in 1907. Under his administration, he began transitioning the publishing house away from classical and traditional music and toward avant-garde and contemporary music.
– Is this relevant to Yella? It seems more suited to Emil's bio.
- Neutral
No neutrality issues.
- Stable
No recent disputes.
- Illustrated
All images are adequately captioned, and they are appropriately tagged as public domain or Creative Commons.