Request for comment: editors, please summarize the dispute for visitors. Durova 03:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Version 1 (stresses current membership)

Opening discussion for this version.

I have neither the time nor the resources to get into it with Oroboros 1, so I will be brief. This article was subject to another editing battle back in February and March of this year. After going back and forth with several versions, the editors (including GuardianZ) seemed to arrive at a mutually agreeable version of events. This current problem began when IP address 24.252.247.68 started trying to list a link to a defamatory site as a valid reference for this article. I am just trying to retain the article in the form that was previously agreed upon.

I invite you to review the comments on this discussion page. As I have stated before, I believe Oroboros 1 is the same individual who posts as GuardianZ, Blooferlady, and IP address 24.252.247.68 and that she has an agenda to promote Joseph Vargo and minimize Midnight Syndicate. Who knows, it might be Joseph Vargo himself. He does not have a Wikipedia article of his own, so he may be trying to use the Midnight Syndicate article to promote himself. Skinny McGee 15:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Con: I don't believe this is an agreed upon issue. It never was. MarcusPan cleaned up the article in February 2006 and actually included Vargo's credits. MarcusPan wrote: "after teaming up with Monolith Graphics Joseph Vargo which included the highly acclaimed Born of the Night and Realm of Shadows. This made Midnight Syndicate the standard for the Halloween and Haunted Attraction industries." Thereafter User:152.163.100.70 and User:64.12.116.202 and User:69.177.28.38 removed those credits and began adding promotional text. New users have also posted. [User:Kafziel] has removed spam posted by user User: 67.140.91.39 and Star525. Friday and GaurdianZ both removed rants by User:205.139.10.130 and User:69.177.28.38 that were made against Vargo. User:MidSyndicate then posted a comment to User:Friday admitting he was Edward Douglas and requested the credits to Vargo be removed altogether. His comments were stricken. And SkinnyMcGee just today changed the heading for this discussion section from "'Stresses current membership and upcoming projects"' placed there by Durova to "previously agreed upon." SkinnyMcGee is obviously trying to slant this vote. Warning: LEAVE the headings as NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW! for a real discussion to take place. Also, Vargo's credits in no way minimize those of the rest of the group. You are completely wrong on that account. No one here is from his company. And Blooferlady has been inactive for over a year, after removing an article on Vargo, so he obviously does not want a Wiki page. Finally, I removed the link to that site you, SkinnyMcGee, call defamatory. But it does present some VERY good research and all of it can be verified by other sources, which I included in my article. Oroboros 1 17:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear SkinnyMcGee, please look at questions below. I am really questioning the 1994 reference on the Retrospective cd. What songs were released in 1994? The first MS album was released in 1997. I also added more specifics. Maybe you will be happy that they are more specific so as not to take away or minimize anything that you previously had concerns with. Oroboros 1 08:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Version 2 (stresses band history)

Opening discussion for this version

Actual history vs. slanted and misleading version: It is referenced that Douglas and Vargo joined up first in 1997, then Gavin came on board several months later, after work had already begun on Born of the Night. It is very notable that Vargo (a famous gothic artist and exec producer of Born of the Night) was the main influence for the change in Midnight Syndicate's focus from a 7-person eclectic musical project to an exclusively Halloween horror-themed band.

References: Plain Dealer article 1998, Ohio Online interview 1998, WERE 1998 Radio Interview with Douglas, Goszka and Vargo. Dark Realms Magazine interview 2001, Paragon magazine interview 2003, writing credits and band photo showing Vargo on Born of the Night and writing credits on Realm of Shadows copyrighted works by Vargo including Born of the Night as published works from 1992 to present.

In my version of the article I have attempted to write an accurate history including the previously omitted and very notable contributions by Vargo. Likewise, I think it is important that the fact that Vargo left the line up in 2000/2001 should be mentioned so as not to confuse anyone into thinking he is still an active member, yet that keeps being removed as well. It is in NO way disparaging to any current band member, and yet User:SkinnyMcGee even has issue with that!

It is only around 2003 (when Vargo created another band Nox Arcana) that Midnight Syndicate began to alter their own history in order to discredit Vargo and reduce his role to something like merely a cover artist. This matter of history-rewriting seems to have escalated through 2005 with the release of MS's 13th Hour cd which has a storyline that seems to be a very similar copy of the earlier Darklore Manor cd by Vargo/Nox Arcana in 2003. This is evident not only in the text but in the imagery.

References: albums and band sites, or this page and any MS interview post-2003. Dark Realms Magazine: article on Darklore Manor (2004)

Midnight Syndicate is obviously not happy about the Legion of the Night website, but the fact is that it remains. It is pretty obvious that Vargo or his supporters felt the need to create that site in order to defend him in some way from a stream of false PR by the current members of the group, and possibly to stake claim to creative works that MS might be infringing on. That seems to be the focus of the website.

In the past and in multiple reverted versions (presumably written by the band) every single edit is the same... They attempt to confuse the reader with statements that make it appear as though Vargo had a minimal role (or none at all), they have consistently reverted with no helpful edits, and promote ONLY what they want to promote. Other cases of such include...

music genres: The musical genres are constantly being reverted to genres that do not exist (and did not exist in 1997). What is horrorbilly? It does not exist. Rock-a-Billy is a music genre. Also the same for humor-pop vs dark humor. Indeed the description of "dark" instrumental does not describe the music on the first self-titled album (I assume that only Edward Douglas describes it as such, in an attempt to relate it to the decidedly different focus he and Vargo took in 1998). The 1997 album was described as: "With everything from rockabilly to pop, Midnight Syndicate is all over the map---most of the vocals are so hokey, they’re laughable. But with Born of the Night, they concentrated on exploring a Gothic theme---specifically, a haunted castle." (Scene Magazine, October 14, 1999)

published film credits: Demons at the Door and Dead and Rotting were added to the list of films, yet Skinny and others keep removing them. They are happy to leave film credits for films not-yet-made, and plenty of other publishing credits for games, ect, yet not these two films. Why is that? Is it not something they wish to promote like their other allliances?

Chronology and Encyclopedic list of sources vs. Promotional ordering: SkinnyMcGee and others also continue to rearrange a chronology of press clippings and interviews in such a way as to present the most flattering press coverage first, instead of simply listing the sources in an ENCYCLOPEDIC and chronological order such that it relates to the items in the article. This continued preference for posting thier press coverage (especially with no edits made to the page to warrant a new resource) just reeks of self-promotion!

See User contribs for: SkinnyMcGee, Indigo1032, Pumpkinhead5, Plooa, Star 525, Midsyndicate, Lizstjames, and about a half-dozen unsigned IPs that point to Chardon, OH servers.

I believe my version is very well organized, fair to both the current and past members, and is much more accurate and concise than any version of this article previously attempted. The users who constantly revert this article to the promo/press release are claiming vandalism, but it is not vandalism for me to re-write this to present an accurate history in a well organized manner. I rest my case, for now. Oroboros 1 09:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

User Defender99 a new user (oddly since SkinnyMcGee "has no time") continues to add promotions while this discussion is ongoing. I still believe the historical aspects and organization using subheads and chronology need to be accurate and have merged the two versions. Oroboros 1 18:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking... maybe this article should be formatted like Panic! at the Disco. I noticed they have a middle section for past band member, who also seems to be at odds with his former mates. Discussion could move into how to best summarize the dispute between MS and Vargo, which has been mentioned in two or three interviews, so there's plenty of resources for verifiability. I also noticed that the timeline for PATD is chronologically ordered from oldest to newest in descending order. That does appear to be the norm for other entries on other band pages.

Dear SkinnyMcGee, I am willing to discuss each section of this article to come to a compromise with you. But you have not given one single inch, nor have you given any good reasons for why you have removed all of my contributions to this article. Your reverts to an incorrect, biased and misleading history will just not fly. Again, I ask you why you are so intent on discredting Vargo and yet you will credit a voice-effects person who was not even a member of the band. Why are you so intent on only promoting upcoming film credits and removing other published work? Why are you so insistent upon having one section formatted chronologically, while the other is haphazard and missing references? I have included YOUR contributions such as the most recent awards, the theme park kudos, and other promotional items, but you have made NO attempt to compromise on the edits I have made. That is NOT working toward a resolution. Also, I am a fan of both MS and Vargo's new band. I will concede that you might be a fan rather than a band member if you will stop making the same accusation of me. If you'd like, I can email you privately and we can share IDs or you can write me a letter by mail. That should alleviate your concerns. Oroboros 1 15:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Oroboros 1. I just wanted to let you know that I see what you've been posting here. However, I would like to hold off on making any changes in the article until we get some more feedback from outside. So far, the only person to respond, Dionyseus, seems to prefer the version I keep reverting to. Based on your various edits to the article and what you have posted here, I don't think we would have any success hacking it out ourselves. Your most recent edits certainly seem aimed at discrediting/defaming the band and promoting Joseph Vargo and his defamatory site. Skinny McGee 18:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Your only edits are to discredit Vargo and remove all my references, then add misleading content. Also, if you really want to "hold off" then stop making additional edits! You are the one continuing to edit my contributions and calling them reverts. If you really want to revert than do so, do not revert then add more self-promotion and call it "previously agreed upon." How about answering my other questions? This is for you and I to discuss. Don't chicken out now. I want you to justify your actions. Oroboros 1 22:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It was suggested to me to "take a few days off." I am glad I did. I was definitely getting pissed about this article. Now, with a clear head, I have some suggestions. First, I agree that SkinnyMcGee stop and take a breather, and stop adding more content if you are sincere about wanting to hold this for other editors to read. In fact, you ought to revert WAY back before you added anything new if you are sincere. I think you are just instigating further additions from Oroboros that you probably don't want. Oroboros 1 I know you tried for a neutral article and probably just got frustrated that nothing of yours was kept and all of it was just being reverted by Skinny, but you just added more fuel to the fire too. Compromise... that means that each side gives a little. SkinnyMcGee, you are going to have to make some compromises if you are sincere, and so far I see only Oroboros making an effort to do that by accepting your content as well as his own. I suggest allowing for the organization of Formation, Focus and Continuing... all that is very neat, does not do any harm, and it makes it easier to read. It also helps to define past, middle and present time. I also have to agree with the proper crediting of Vargo. If you don't mention anything from 1998 to 2001 then the article is not complete, and he was very obviously a big influence for Edward Douglas changing from doing pop style to goth style music. I think it is also important to mention the order in which they teamed up. Considering the current dispute, it is very misleading to say that Gavin Goszka joined in 1998 and not mention that Vargo and Douglas teamed up earlier. I don't see how giving credit to him would minimize the other members, as was suggested by Skinny. They seem to have lots of awards and films and things going on so how could it minimize them? Oroboros 1 perhaps, if you can let go of the interviews section that seems to bother Skinny and leave the interviews as he seems to prefer them (2006 backwards to 1998), then we can all finish this. As for the section on the dispute between the band members. That is a notable bit of history isn't it? After reading the Panic! at the disco article and this new section, I would have to side with leave it in. But maybe trim it down a bit to something like: "After Vargo started another band in 2003 a rift occurred between the current members of Midnight Syndicate and their former producer. Each side claimed having done original work and as yet the matter is unresolved." You can footnote the references to The Perch but as a compromise to Skinny leave out the Legion website. In keeping with that, I'd also be careful about crediting any particlar member with the Wizards of the Coast thing. That does appear to be something to Vargo's credit as well, but if it is even partly in dispute here then just leave it at: "The band released an official D&D album in (whatever year)..." As for music genres, I have never heard of horrorbilly or humor pop, but if "dark" absolutely must precede "instrumental" to make Skinny happy, then just let it be, or perhaps use "somber." Who cares? But use the more concise version, not all that stuff about "like all their later releases" because frankly, I have heard that 1997 album and it is not dark and not anything like the other albums. Well, I guess that's about all I have for suggestions. So, I hope all can agree? I have a book to write, so I can't spend much more time here as I'd like. If I get a "yay" from you both in a day or two, I'd be happy to do some rough outline of how this could work. It seems no one else really cares about this article enough to comment on it. GuardianZ 02:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Since I firmly believe that you and Oroboros 1 are one and the same, I don't think it would be helpful for you to put together a rough outline. You paint a pretty picture here, but given your editing history on the article I don't think you're going to be much help. - Skinny McGee 15:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Skinny. I hope didn't screw this up. Something happened when I clicked on the date. I got an error that the page was unavailable, then it popped up. Anyway, all I did was revert, I think. ~

Skinny, man. I thought for sure you had more brains than that. Me thinkest thou doth protest too much. Anyway, I just have a few more suggestions. (1.) to say the MP3 thing was "huge" is a gross overstatement . Not only is it no longer verifiable (I'll just take your word), it was for what? during Halloween 2001? Is that days or like a week? It's not like they made the Billboard charts, so don't make it into more than it is. (2.) You really are getting a bit redundant (ad nauseum) saying that Douglas and Gozka wrote most of or all of the music, blah blah blah. I'm sure that's just someone's ego getting in the way. But if you feel better to go that extra mile, then you should credit everyone for their efforts, just to be fair. We want to be fair, right? Or, as it sort of just interupts the paragraph, we could do without the entire thing. We could make a list instead. But, do you think it's really neccessary? (3.) Continuing reads way to much like the band's press releases,almost word-for-word to the one that they currently have circulating. I think it's enough to just list the films. (Notice how I didn't put those other two in there, though I don't see what wrong with that). Also, since there's nothing on just when we will see these new films, I just think we need to cool it on that until they are actually in the theater. OK. I think we are close. Still needs some tweeking but we are almost there. GuardianZ 21:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, one more thing. Where you said that the band was approached by Wizards of the Coast in 2001... I don't see a reference for that. But they did release a cd in 2003, so I just cleaned that up a bit. Again, I will remind you to give equal credit if giving credit at all, most especially considering the trouble that is brewing. We must keep this a fair and level playing ground if we are to avoid any more nastiness. Thanks. Really good job overall. GuardianZ 21:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Outside comments

I earlier made a comment that User:Oroboros 1 may not be the user's first account, and she has reaffirmed my suspiciouns with her recent comments. I am also dismayed that User:Oroboros 1 has tried to revert the article to her version as soon as the page protection was lifted, and has once again resorted to calling other editors vandals in her edit summaries. Dionyseus 19:49, 1 November 2006(UTC)

A p.s. for you Dionyseus. I think you need a little dose of the NPOV pill. Here you are slamming on Oroboros and me and ignoring all the damned little sock puppets poking around from the opposition's side. I think your vaccine shot for adminitis is wearing off. You might need a booster. GuardianZ 03:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I called no one a vandal. And I added content, not reverted. And Dionyseus, this is my only account, otherwise I too would come up with other names such as SkinnyMcGee, Defender99, etc. Give me a break. Also, per SkinnyMcGee, the Born of the Night and the Realms of Shadows cds were indeed marketed at Universal Studios as "official soundtracks for Halloween Horror Nights." The oher cds are played but are not given that title. Also, this article is just getting more and more elaborate. My version was concise and factual. I did not resort to such blatant promotional tactics as the others. I am simply stating what is verifiable. Oroboros 1 22:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey Skinny... maybe you can answer this. Out of the Darkness has ONE previously unreleased track, right? Not four? The best I can make out from the titles is that the majority of songs are just remixed from the earliest 3 albums, two seem to be retitled, and onlt one is new. Also, what do you have against Vargo's influence on the Born of the Night album? It just seems to me that you are very keen on promoting the band but only insofar as it pertains to anything and everything other than Vargo (and the 2 films I added). What gives? Seriously. Why are you and Defender99 and others so resistant to my organizing the timeline? I have taken away nothing, but I did make things more concise and you cannot argue the grammar and headings, nor the full accounting of credits. I really do prefer the chronological view as it appears in other similar articles. No other band jumps back and forth through time like this one. So please, answer that. Also, you said that the credit for HHN's "official soundtracks" was wrong. Where did you get that info? I was at the park in FLA in 2000 and that was how it was being advertised. Oroboros 1 01:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I reviewed the disk and the four new tracks are very clearly indicated. They are "Return of the Apparition", "Scenes from 'The Dead Matter'", "Prisoner of Time", and "Theme to 'Journey into Dementia'". - Skinny McGee 15:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

"Return of the Apparition" is just a remix of "Apparition" from Born of the Night. "Theme to Journey into Dementia" is a remix of "Journey into Dementia" from the 1997 album. "Scenes from The Dead Matter" isn't really a song or even a melody. As far as I can tell, "Prisoner of Time" is the only NEW song. Furthermore none of this was released prior to 1997. Where does MS get 1994 from? 68.9.37.233 22:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Dionyseus, I thought we were getting close. I mean Skinny made some improvement, but then he sort of backtracked and made some sort of inuendo. I was just giving equal credit. Here's the thing... if we give special mention for something, and don't play fair, then it is misleading. So, to say that Douglas and Goska wrote all the music is not being fair to Vargo and others who also wrote some songs. I'm just trying to be fair. Why are you suddenly like "this isn't a vargo article." My gosh, he was mentioned ONCE and you like freaked out. I don't get you guys. At the risk of being banned I am reverting and calling the feds.GuardianZ 21:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I stated Douglas and Goszka wrote almost all the music. That is true. Vargo did not write any music. He is credited as a lyricist and vocalist. - Skinny McGee 22:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Vargo wrote musical arrangements, per his website and Gozka's comments in two interviews. And he was the producer, so he directed everything. Where are you getting your information Skinny? I'd like to check that out. Also, you have reverted like 5 times today. 68.9.37.233 22:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. I removed the offending sentences. Like I suggested to Skinny, it didn't work, but I was just trying to be an advocate for fair treatment. Look it over, it barely mentions Vargo. Is that OK now? GuardianZ 22:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I see that we can't yet compromise. Let's try again. It is redundant to say 1) that Douglas and Goszka are composers, then 2) they "write all the music except.... " It's also very disruptive to insert that right in the middle of the train of thought. I think that if you mention other songwriters' credits like Tim Blue who was never an actual band member, then it is only fair to reinsert Vargo's songwrites for co-writing the songs and for narrations, theme and storyline which he wrote alone. You mention another person who was not even a band member and yet you minimize Vargo's song writes by maximizing others. I really think we can reach a happy medium here. I really do. Just remove the sentence. You already state that D&G are composers. That says it all. Also what problem do you have with my edit "Born of the Night was the band's first critically acclaimed gothic horror soundtrack, and it provided the mold for the rest of the albums to come and indeed set the bar for other Halloween music." That's a pretty great line if I say so myself. It's true and it's rather flattering. As for you Dionyseus... this article is about Midnight Syndicate, yes, but this band has gone through many changes through it's history, and if we are to be fair, we must acknowledge that fact and give proper credit to past and present. It is important to not mislead people. I trust you will agree. Skinny, I really think we can get this cleaned up and have a nice article ready on Monday. I'll see you tomorrow and see what you can come up with in the meantime. Please try to make some improvements before I return to show we are trying to get somewhere. OK?GuardianZ 00:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think we're making some progress and I think there's been compromise on both sides. In light of this new spirit of cooperation, I wanted to let you know I would spend some time on the article and make some changes. I'll post something on Sunday for everyone to review. - Skinny McGee 01:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Skinny. Your version just reeks of promotion. You have to remove that Continuing section, or the film section. But pick ONE and tone it down. 68.9.37.233 22:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)