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Character Development[edit]
In the relationships sub-section of Character Development, there are quotes from different actors regarding their opinions on the character's love-life. Are these relevant to his characterisation? Unlike the ones dealing with the actor's insight into the character's PTSD, they seem subjective. Didn't want to remove them without double checking first. AutumnKing (talk) 12:19, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- I would say yes, because it would factor into how they perform their respective roles in relation to those opinions. In Amell's case, it also addresses the departure from the comics where Green Arrow and Canary are married. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:18, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Other versions[edit]
So, I think this section is being misconstrued here. "Other versions" refers to other incarnations from other media, not alternative depictions on the same show. This is just a section for additional plot information. It needs to be trimmed and moved into the plot section. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 06:48, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- I would agree on a comic character page, but this page is specific to the live-action version. There is also a section entitled "other media", which encompasses the other incarnations. Maybe the 'other versions' section should be renamed 'alternate versions' to avoid confusion with comic character articles? AutumnKing (talk) 08:32, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- It's still part of the same series. This page isn't specific to the "live-action" version, it's specific to who appears in the Arrowverse, which includes animated shows. We don't create a new section for plot information just because it's a different "earth". They should get a passing mention IF it's necessary. This is not a page that is a biography of Oliver Queen (and any alternate Earth versions). This is an encyclopedia and if it's necessary to mention them then it should be in the plot section. You don't create a whole new section simply because there is an alternate Oliver in the world of Arrowverse. It's still part of the same series and character, just like the animated version is still this character and shouldn't be separated when discussing the FICTIONAL history of the character, as they have already established the animated world is still part of the live-action world just a different medium being used to portray it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:28, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Calm down there mate - I didn't create the section, was just offering a possible solution to an apparent issue! From the title of the page, then this page is, rightly or wrongly, very specifically about Oliver Queen from the television show Arrow, rather than about the character in the Arrowverse as a whole. The 'other versions' (which I would maintain should be renamed 'alternate versions') would appear to more rightly fit in under the storyline section, as sub-headed section, rather than where it currently is, following on from the current section on spin-offs. It is proably worth noting that the whole spin-off section could do with a copyedit aswell. Just my two cents! AutumnKing (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Calm down? I'm not angry or upset. I didn't use exclamation points as if I was yelling. I'm just stating what is. The title of the page is based off the first instance. We wouldn't have a page called "Oliver Queen (Arrowverse)" for two reasons. Arrowverse isn't an official name for one. Second, he originated from the Arrow show, which is what naming conventions dictate since "Oliver Queen" by itself is already taken. The name of the page doesn't dictate what the information covers, merely a way to disambiguate for searches. The problem isn't just simply location of the "other versions" or "alternate versions", it's the fact it's just additional plot information. This page is not meant to just be another plot discussion. It is about real world coverage of a fictional character, not a biography. The "spin-off" section is really just Oliver appearing in crossover episodes, not his appear in "spin-offs" as if the character left his own show and went somewhere else. They all part of the same history and shouldn't be separated. It should be a single focus. If there isn't anything relevant real world wise or even story-impacting wise, then they shouldn't be more than a passing sentence mention that he appeared in an animated show or that there are alternate reality versions of him. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:07, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- The very fact that there is a 'spin-off' section would point to the fact that the primary focus of this article is Oliver Queen as he appears in the show Arrow, rather than pertaining to the Arrowverse as a whole, otherwise his crossover appearances would simply be discussed in the storyline section, rather than requiring a distinction to be made. As it is currently laid out in this fashion, it would not seem unreasonable to include alternate-version appearances, with appropriate brevity, as a sub-section of the spin off section. AutumnKing (talk) 15:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- The fact that someone created a section doesn't change what the article it. That's what happens when a dozen different people edit an article. They do what they want most of the time. What you are referring to would be to change the section to "Appearances", then have subsections for "Arrow", "Crossovers", "Animated" (the crossovers would handle the "alternative versions"). That's a restructure of the entire section. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:37, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- That wouldn't actually serve the purpose, given that one of the examples of alternate versions is the characters Earth-2 counterpart, who is mentioned in an epsiode of one of the spin-offs, not featured in a crossover. Also, it is not simply the spin-off section that emphasises that this article is specific to Arrow - the whole lead section reads like that, talking about the character in the context of one show, with appearances in spin-offs/crossovers, rather than discussing the character in the context of the shared universe. Going with the current structure of the article, it would seem reasonable to include alternate versions in the storyline section, under spin-offs, in a brief fashion. AutumnKing (talk) 15:48, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Then it shouldn't be mentioned here. As I've said repeatedly, this not a fictional biography. The fact that other Olivers exist throughout the multiverse of the Arrowverse is largely irrelevant. If they don't impact the main character (the one we're writing about) then it isn't relevant. It's trivia and trivia is not something we write about. This is true for alternate versions as well. Also, you keep reading things titles or sections that were written when the page was first created an not adjusted. The fact that the lead focuses on the show as the primary source doesn't change anything. His primary appearance is through Arrow, so it makes sense that the lead would focus on Arrow. It's called not given undue weight to minor appearances elsewhere. Which would be like actually putting in information about the existence of an Earth-2 Oliver when he's never seen or heard from simply because another show mentions him. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- That wouldn't actually serve the purpose, given that one of the examples of alternate versions is the characters Earth-2 counterpart, who is mentioned in an epsiode of one of the spin-offs, not featured in a crossover. Also, it is not simply the spin-off section that emphasises that this article is specific to Arrow - the whole lead section reads like that, talking about the character in the context of one show, with appearances in spin-offs/crossovers, rather than discussing the character in the context of the shared universe. Going with the current structure of the article, it would seem reasonable to include alternate versions in the storyline section, under spin-offs, in a brief fashion. AutumnKing (talk) 15:48, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- The fact that someone created a section doesn't change what the article it. That's what happens when a dozen different people edit an article. They do what they want most of the time. What you are referring to would be to change the section to "Appearances", then have subsections for "Arrow", "Crossovers", "Animated" (the crossovers would handle the "alternative versions"). That's a restructure of the entire section. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:37, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- The very fact that there is a 'spin-off' section would point to the fact that the primary focus of this article is Oliver Queen as he appears in the show Arrow, rather than pertaining to the Arrowverse as a whole, otherwise his crossover appearances would simply be discussed in the storyline section, rather than requiring a distinction to be made. As it is currently laid out in this fashion, it would not seem unreasonable to include alternate-version appearances, with appropriate brevity, as a sub-section of the spin off section. AutumnKing (talk) 15:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Calm down? I'm not angry or upset. I didn't use exclamation points as if I was yelling. I'm just stating what is. The title of the page is based off the first instance. We wouldn't have a page called "Oliver Queen (Arrowverse)" for two reasons. Arrowverse isn't an official name for one. Second, he originated from the Arrow show, which is what naming conventions dictate since "Oliver Queen" by itself is already taken. The name of the page doesn't dictate what the information covers, merely a way to disambiguate for searches. The problem isn't just simply location of the "other versions" or "alternate versions", it's the fact it's just additional plot information. This page is not meant to just be another plot discussion. It is about real world coverage of a fictional character, not a biography. The "spin-off" section is really just Oliver appearing in crossover episodes, not his appear in "spin-offs" as if the character left his own show and went somewhere else. They all part of the same history and shouldn't be separated. It should be a single focus. If there isn't anything relevant real world wise or even story-impacting wise, then they shouldn't be more than a passing sentence mention that he appeared in an animated show or that there are alternate reality versions of him. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:07, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Calm down there mate - I didn't create the section, was just offering a possible solution to an apparent issue! From the title of the page, then this page is, rightly or wrongly, very specifically about Oliver Queen from the television show Arrow, rather than about the character in the Arrowverse as a whole. The 'other versions' (which I would maintain should be renamed 'alternate versions') would appear to more rightly fit in under the storyline section, as sub-headed section, rather than where it currently is, following on from the current section on spin-offs. It is proably worth noting that the whole spin-off section could do with a copyedit aswell. Just my two cents! AutumnKing (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- It's still part of the same series. This page isn't specific to the "live-action" version, it's specific to who appears in the Arrowverse, which includes animated shows. We don't create a new section for plot information just because it's a different "earth". They should get a passing mention IF it's necessary. This is not a page that is a biography of Oliver Queen (and any alternate Earth versions). This is an encyclopedia and if it's necessary to mention them then it should be in the plot section. You don't create a whole new section simply because there is an alternate Oliver in the world of Arrowverse. It's still part of the same series and character, just like the animated version is still this character and shouldn't be separated when discussing the FICTIONAL history of the character, as they have already established the animated world is still part of the live-action world just a different medium being used to portray it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:28, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Requested move 18 August 2018[edit]
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. There is a consensus that this character is significant in a number of related shows, that the common name for that group of shows is "Arrowverse", and that this particular situation is not clearly described at WP:NCTV. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 04:39, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Oliver Queen (Arrow) → Oliver Queen (Arrowverse) – As per discussion at Talk:John Diggle (Arrowverse). Contrary to the impression some contributors have, 'Arrowverse' is a term used for a specific series of DC shows, airing on the CW, used by WB execs, series producers and the press as a franchise name for all media under this umbrella. Characters in the series exist and feature across the franchise, rather than solely on one specific television show. As per previous discussions at John Diggle (Arrowverse), where disambiguation is required, the franchise name would seem the most suitable disambiguator. AutumnKing (talk) 12:20, 18 August 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 20:42, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support Just to give some very recent examples of the usage of the term Arrowverse. Batwoman's inclusion in the forthcoming crossover was reported as her joining the Arrowverse by the Hollywood Reporter [1], EW [2] and Deadline Hollywood [3], as just three examples. CW boss Mark Pedowitz made the following announcement: “We are adding the city of Gotham into the Arrowverse” [4]. These are just very recent examples of Arrowverse being used as the official title for the franchise, as opposed to it being a term used by fans. AutumnKing (talk) 12:33, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support move. As both Diggle and Queen are Arrow-debut characters who appear across the entire Arrowverse, they should have the same disambiguation. ONR (talk) 18:56, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- 'Oppose - Per WP:NCTV. TV characters that require disambiguation should have the television show in front of them. That's a pre-existing guideline. The proper page name should be "Arrow". "Arrowverse" is NOT the name of the show, nor of any show. It's a colloquial term used to describe multiple shows. The average reader knows Oliver Queen from "Arrow", not from the "Arrowverse". For examples, see that Angel (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) is not at Angel (Buffyverse), because "Buffyverse" is a term used to describe the world, it is not the actual show. Oliver Queen is a character on "Arrow" who has appeared in other shows. That's different than claiming he is a character on the "Arrowverse", which is not an actual name of a show, but again just a name used to collectively describe multiple shows. This is why John Diggle NEVER should have been moved to Arrowverse. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- Comment WP:NCTV doesn't have any guideline regarding what to do about character articles in the case of a franchise character. The only advise on media franchises in the guideline is regarding primary articles, with a link to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Media franchise. There, it specifically states that film character articles requiring disambiguation should use the franchise name. There is no reason not to use the same logic with non-film characters. In fact that is already the case with other franchises, for example Kes (Star Trek) and John Sheppard (Stargate). Neither feature in the original shows, but both are listed by the franchise name. Additionally, there is a difference between the term 'Buffyverse' and 'Arrowverse'. Whilst the former is a fan coined term, later adopted by creators, Arrowverse originates with the creators themselves (see http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supergirl-flash-ep-shoots-down-845560). It is an umbrella term for a specific media franchise, used by those who create and control it. It does not only describe multiple shows, but associated media, such as tie-in comics, novels, web series and video game appearances. Just as Star Trek and Stargate are used as disambiguators for characters that exist in a specific fanchise universe so should Arrowverse be. The average reader argument would not work for all characters across the franchise - Sara Lance for example, originated on Arrow, but is better known by the average viewer for her role in Legends of Tomorrow. Should her article require disambiguation, Arrowverse would be most suitable. The terms Oliver Queen and Green Arrow are already linked to a disambiguation page. Anyone looking for the article would find it just as easily from there if the name was changed to Oliver Queen (Arrowverse) AutumnKing (talk) 15:53, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- First, this isn't a "franchise". This isn't like "Star Wars", or "Star Trek", contrary to people's attempts to use that as an example. This is a TV show where there are crossovers with other shows. Every time a new show comes around it starts as a crossover to see how it will fair. That's why the Batwoman show isn't a full greenlight, because they want to see how fans respond to her on "Arrow". There are crossovers between the different NCISs, but Jethro Gibbs would only be classified as a character on the original NCIS. The reason you use a franchise name in film is because it's still all the same name. Friday the 13th is Friday the 13th. Star Wars is Star Wars. They may have subtitles and numbers, but they are all still Star Wars. Wikipedia writes from historical perspective, so yes, Sara Lance would ultimately be "Arrow", just like Angel is "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". When you ask what show does Oliver Queen appear on, you don't go "He appears on the Arrowverse", because that's not true. He appears on "Arrow", and has guest roles (occasionally) on the other shows for the major crossover events. You're placing undue weight on the name given to the FICTIONAL universe in which they all reside, but that's not the name of their shows. Even when people talk about these characters, they talk about what's next for them on their respective shows, not what's next for them in the "Arrowverse", because writers, producers, reporters, still associate their character arcs and stories as they relate to their primary shows (not the overall universe that was created and named years later). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't quite follow your argument. NCIS (franchise) is a franchise, just like the Arrowverse is. Just because it doesn't follow the same naming convention, doesn't make it any less of a franchise. Yes Oliver Queen appears primarily on Arrow, but he and the show exisit and are impacted by other characters and events within the franchise. For example, Flashpoint on The Flash, which changed the gender of a child on Arrow. Or the fact that the leads of The Flash and Arrow both got married on an episode of Legends of Tommorrow. Arrow EP Wendy Mericle discussed the character development for Oliver Queen in the "Crisis" crossover [5]. Their arcs carryover/start/are developed between shows. These shows are an interlinked franchise. When Mark Pedowitz announced the introduction of Batwoman, he specifically referenced the existence of Gotham in the Arrowverse, because it has potential to impact all the shows in that universe. Also, it wasn't named 'years later' - Kreisberg labelled it the Arrowverse in 2015, once there was an established franchise to actually name. He couldn't have done so before it existed. Arrowverse is the name of the franchise. The fictional universe in which they preside would be Earth-1, Arrowverse is strictly the franchise term. AutumnKing (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't classify that as a "franchise", but ok. And no, simply because a Wikipedia page has it listed that way doesn't make it so. Yes, it was years later. "Arrow" came out in 2012, that interview was in 2015....which is years later. He references Gotham in the Arrowverse, yes, but again when people discuss these character it is in reference to their specific shows. No one is disputing the use of the term "arrowverse", so pointing to interviews to prove the term is in use is irrelevant. Just like pointing to the crossover events themselves as proof otherwise is like taking a straw-man argument. They are specifically talking about those events, not the character as a whole. When you remove specific crossover discussion, and they talk about Oliver, it's in reference to "Arrow". The same with Diggle, and everyone else. The average reader knows these characters by their shows, not by a universe name. There is no reason that they should be listed as "Arrowverse" when it's not the primary usage, not the first usage, not the most commonly known usage, and not the most precise usage. They are guest stars on those shows, not actual characters on those shows. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:52, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- First of all the reason I have made a point in the early part of this disucussion of demonstrating that "Arrowverse" is an established franchise name, coming from the creators as opposed to the fans is because you disputed it stating that it was "a made up fan name for the universe" when you reverted back the change to Oliver Queen (Arrowverse)[6]. Secondly, no a Wikipedia page does not make something fact. But a well cited Wikipedia provides sources to establish validity. NCIS is actually a good example of the difference between franchises and crossovers. It is a franchise consisting of three interlinked shows, but it also exists in a shared universe of shows, where crossovers have occurred (such as Hawaii Five-O). However, those shows are not part of the same franchise because the relationship between them is minimal, and does not impact the long term plotting of the franchise shows. That is not the case with the Arrowverse shows. Take the example I gave of the gender change of a child. This was the child of a character on Arrow, but the change was both caused by events on The Flash, and revealed in the second episode of The Flash season 3. Conflict about it then occurs in the main crossover event. Plot for a main Arrow character is developed outside the show. The events of one show impact on another, and producers talk about that in interviews[7]. The marriages of both the leads on The Flash and Arrow are the culmination of multiple season plots, as well as the starting point for continuing plot, and these take place on Legends of Tomorrow. Again, interlinked. Finally, your years later comment is somewhat disingenuous. In 2012, the Arrowverse did not exist because Arrow was the only show. The establishment of a third show in 2015 is when it would be accurate to begin describing it as a franchise, which is when Kreisberg did so. That is not 'years later', that is a contemporary development. AutumnKing (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- That's my point by the "years later" statement Autumn. Oliver Queen and John Diggle were well known as characters on "Arrow". The universe did not come around until year later, when there were 3 shows in existence (Supergirl wasn't part of it yet). You're ignoring historical relevancy, historical impact, and most importantly what they are most commonly known for. Common usage is tied to one show, not the universe. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- Except that Wikipedia is not an historical document - unlike a print encyclopedia, it is not a snapshot of the point at which it is published. It is a continuing, evolving resource. Appropriate disambiguators can change over time, just like anything else. If the articles for either Imran Khan or Ronald Reagan required disambigutation, the careers for which they were originally known would not be the most appropriate disambiguators. With regards to common usage, again the reason myself and others have referenced so many examples of the use of Arrowverse (and have easily been able to do so) is precisely because the term is in common use, and the characters are continually referenced to as being from the Arrowverse, when discussing franchise interactions as a whole and individual show developments. AutumnKing (talk) 07:32, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- Not a historical document, but written from an historical perspective. There is a different. See Wikipedia:Recentism, WP:BALASP. I'm not saying the universe isn't important, I'm saying that in the scope of THIS article, it isn't. This article and the character's primary fictional world is based around 1 single show. Yes, events in the crossovers or on the Flash have impacted Arrow, but the character of Oliver Queen is not only best known as the character on "Arrow" it is also his primary place of exposure. The "Arrowverse" is not a show. You're placing weight on the name of a universe of the weight of the show these characters are on. Yes, they appear on other shows at times, but they are not part of those shows. You might have an argument if a character was legitimately part of multiple shows and just bounced around all over the place and thus didn't have a primary home. That isn't the case with Oliver Queen NOR the case with John Diggle. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:51, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- You seem to be deliberately avoiding the crux of this disagreement. As I stated in a comment to you further down this discussion, no-one is arguing or insinuating that the Arrowverse is a show, something you repeatedly alude to in this entire discussion. The point in question here is whether or not the Arrowverse is a franchise. I and others, presenting a plethora of supporting evidence, say it is a franchise therefore character articles from that franchise should be disambiguated using the accepted practice already in place on Wikipedia, with the franchise name. You are arguing, seemingly based on your opinion of other people's perceptions, that the Arrowverse is not a franchise, and therefore character articles should be disambiguated by the show name. Clearly you refuse to move from that position, which makes further discussion redundant. AutumnKing (talk) 07:26, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- Not a historical document, but written from an historical perspective. There is a different. See Wikipedia:Recentism, WP:BALASP. I'm not saying the universe isn't important, I'm saying that in the scope of THIS article, it isn't. This article and the character's primary fictional world is based around 1 single show. Yes, events in the crossovers or on the Flash have impacted Arrow, but the character of Oliver Queen is not only best known as the character on "Arrow" it is also his primary place of exposure. The "Arrowverse" is not a show. You're placing weight on the name of a universe of the weight of the show these characters are on. Yes, they appear on other shows at times, but they are not part of those shows. You might have an argument if a character was legitimately part of multiple shows and just bounced around all over the place and thus didn't have a primary home. That isn't the case with Oliver Queen NOR the case with John Diggle. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:51, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- Except that Wikipedia is not an historical document - unlike a print encyclopedia, it is not a snapshot of the point at which it is published. It is a continuing, evolving resource. Appropriate disambiguators can change over time, just like anything else. If the articles for either Imran Khan or Ronald Reagan required disambigutation, the careers for which they were originally known would not be the most appropriate disambiguators. With regards to common usage, again the reason myself and others have referenced so many examples of the use of Arrowverse (and have easily been able to do so) is precisely because the term is in common use, and the characters are continually referenced to as being from the Arrowverse, when discussing franchise interactions as a whole and individual show developments. AutumnKing (talk) 07:32, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- That's my point by the "years later" statement Autumn. Oliver Queen and John Diggle were well known as characters on "Arrow". The universe did not come around until year later, when there were 3 shows in existence (Supergirl wasn't part of it yet). You're ignoring historical relevancy, historical impact, and most importantly what they are most commonly known for. Common usage is tied to one show, not the universe. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- First of all the reason I have made a point in the early part of this disucussion of demonstrating that "Arrowverse" is an established franchise name, coming from the creators as opposed to the fans is because you disputed it stating that it was "a made up fan name for the universe" when you reverted back the change to Oliver Queen (Arrowverse)[6]. Secondly, no a Wikipedia page does not make something fact. But a well cited Wikipedia provides sources to establish validity. NCIS is actually a good example of the difference between franchises and crossovers. It is a franchise consisting of three interlinked shows, but it also exists in a shared universe of shows, where crossovers have occurred (such as Hawaii Five-O). However, those shows are not part of the same franchise because the relationship between them is minimal, and does not impact the long term plotting of the franchise shows. That is not the case with the Arrowverse shows. Take the example I gave of the gender change of a child. This was the child of a character on Arrow, but the change was both caused by events on The Flash, and revealed in the second episode of The Flash season 3. Conflict about it then occurs in the main crossover event. Plot for a main Arrow character is developed outside the show. The events of one show impact on another, and producers talk about that in interviews[7]. The marriages of both the leads on The Flash and Arrow are the culmination of multiple season plots, as well as the starting point for continuing plot, and these take place on Legends of Tomorrow. Again, interlinked. Finally, your years later comment is somewhat disingenuous. In 2012, the Arrowverse did not exist because Arrow was the only show. The establishment of a third show in 2015 is when it would be accurate to begin describing it as a franchise, which is when Kreisberg did so. That is not 'years later', that is a contemporary development. AutumnKing (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't classify that as a "franchise", but ok. And no, simply because a Wikipedia page has it listed that way doesn't make it so. Yes, it was years later. "Arrow" came out in 2012, that interview was in 2015....which is years later. He references Gotham in the Arrowverse, yes, but again when people discuss these character it is in reference to their specific shows. No one is disputing the use of the term "arrowverse", so pointing to interviews to prove the term is in use is irrelevant. Just like pointing to the crossover events themselves as proof otherwise is like taking a straw-man argument. They are specifically talking about those events, not the character as a whole. When you remove specific crossover discussion, and they talk about Oliver, it's in reference to "Arrow". The same with Diggle, and everyone else. The average reader knows these characters by their shows, not by a universe name. There is no reason that they should be listed as "Arrowverse" when it's not the primary usage, not the first usage, not the most commonly known usage, and not the most precise usage. They are guest stars on those shows, not actual characters on those shows. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:52, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't quite follow your argument. NCIS (franchise) is a franchise, just like the Arrowverse is. Just because it doesn't follow the same naming convention, doesn't make it any less of a franchise. Yes Oliver Queen appears primarily on Arrow, but he and the show exisit and are impacted by other characters and events within the franchise. For example, Flashpoint on The Flash, which changed the gender of a child on Arrow. Or the fact that the leads of The Flash and Arrow both got married on an episode of Legends of Tommorrow. Arrow EP Wendy Mericle discussed the character development for Oliver Queen in the "Crisis" crossover [5]. Their arcs carryover/start/are developed between shows. These shows are an interlinked franchise. When Mark Pedowitz announced the introduction of Batwoman, he specifically referenced the existence of Gotham in the Arrowverse, because it has potential to impact all the shows in that universe. Also, it wasn't named 'years later' - Kreisberg labelled it the Arrowverse in 2015, once there was an established franchise to actually name. He couldn't have done so before it existed. Arrowverse is the name of the franchise. The fictional universe in which they preside would be Earth-1, Arrowverse is strictly the franchise term. AutumnKing (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- First, this isn't a "franchise". This isn't like "Star Wars", or "Star Trek", contrary to people's attempts to use that as an example. This is a TV show where there are crossovers with other shows. Every time a new show comes around it starts as a crossover to see how it will fair. That's why the Batwoman show isn't a full greenlight, because they want to see how fans respond to her on "Arrow". There are crossovers between the different NCISs, but Jethro Gibbs would only be classified as a character on the original NCIS. The reason you use a franchise name in film is because it's still all the same name. Friday the 13th is Friday the 13th. Star Wars is Star Wars. They may have subtitles and numbers, but they are all still Star Wars. Wikipedia writes from historical perspective, so yes, Sara Lance would ultimately be "Arrow", just like Angel is "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". When you ask what show does Oliver Queen appear on, you don't go "He appears on the Arrowverse", because that's not true. He appears on "Arrow", and has guest roles (occasionally) on the other shows for the major crossover events. You're placing undue weight on the name given to the FICTIONAL universe in which they all reside, but that's not the name of their shows. Even when people talk about these characters, they talk about what's next for them on their respective shows, not what's next for them in the "Arrowverse", because writers, producers, reporters, still associate their character arcs and stories as they relate to their primary shows (not the overall universe that was created and named years later). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- Comment WP:NCTV doesn't have any guideline regarding what to do about character articles in the case of a franchise character. The only advise on media franchises in the guideline is regarding primary articles, with a link to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Media franchise. There, it specifically states that film character articles requiring disambiguation should use the franchise name. There is no reason not to use the same logic with non-film characters. In fact that is already the case with other franchises, for example Kes (Star Trek) and John Sheppard (Stargate). Neither feature in the original shows, but both are listed by the franchise name. Additionally, there is a difference between the term 'Buffyverse' and 'Arrowverse'. Whilst the former is a fan coined term, later adopted by creators, Arrowverse originates with the creators themselves (see http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supergirl-flash-ep-shoots-down-845560). It is an umbrella term for a specific media franchise, used by those who create and control it. It does not only describe multiple shows, but associated media, such as tie-in comics, novels, web series and video game appearances. Just as Star Trek and Stargate are used as disambiguators for characters that exist in a specific fanchise universe so should Arrowverse be. The average reader argument would not work for all characters across the franchise - Sara Lance for example, originated on Arrow, but is better known by the average viewer for her role in Legends of Tomorrow. Should her article require disambiguation, Arrowverse would be most suitable. The terms Oliver Queen and Green Arrow are already linked to a disambiguation page. Anyone looking for the article would find it just as easily from there if the name was changed to Oliver Queen (Arrowverse) AutumnKing (talk) 15:53, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per Bignole and my comments in the other RM. The Arrowverse is a loose connection of otherwise very independent TV shows and related spin-off media, not a franchise. -- 01:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per Bignole's reasoning. The series Arrow is what this character is notable for, the rest are just guest appearances. We don't need to resort to marketing names. Daß Wölf 03:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- As discussed above, the storyline and character development for characters occurs between the shows. That is not the same as simple guest appearances. Take the shows Warehouse 13 and Eureka (U.S. TV series). The Eureka character Douglas Fargo appears in an episode of Warehouse 13, and the Warehouse 13 character Claudia Donovan appears in an episode of Eureka. That is a crossover, theoretically establishing them in the same fictional universe. However, outside of these two crossovers, the series have no impact or relevance to each other. Events on one do not impact the other. Their plotlines are not interlinked. This is clearly not the case with Arrowverse shows, where events on one show impact the other and characters repeatedly crossover and influence events of other shows. AutumnKing (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Bignole, you should have voted to move John Diggle (character) to John Diggle (Arrow) rather than move it after the consensus ended in favour of John Diggle (Arrowverse). But I still support moving this to Oliver Queen (Arrowverse) since, unlike what certain people think, Arrowverse is not a fan term but the official name. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:11, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Kailash29792 - I wasn't aware that that discussion was even taking place. I only became aware when the admin decided to arbitrarily moved Oliver Queen because it was suggested on that page. Otherwise, I would have. Even looking at that discussion, there was no actual consensus to move Diggle to "Arrowverse". It was largely split. The only thing agreed was that it should be moved from "character", which I would have supported per NCTV. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:51, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- Bignole, you should have voted to move John Diggle (character) to John Diggle (Arrow) rather than move it after the consensus ended in favour of John Diggle (Arrowverse). But I still support moving this to Oliver Queen (Arrowverse) since, unlike what certain people think, Arrowverse is not a fan term but the official name. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:11, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- As discussed above, the storyline and character development for characters occurs between the shows. That is not the same as simple guest appearances. Take the shows Warehouse 13 and Eureka (U.S. TV series). The Eureka character Douglas Fargo appears in an episode of Warehouse 13, and the Warehouse 13 character Claudia Donovan appears in an episode of Eureka. That is a crossover, theoretically establishing them in the same fictional universe. However, outside of these two crossovers, the series have no impact or relevance to each other. Events on one do not impact the other. Their plotlines are not interlinked. This is clearly not the case with Arrowverse shows, where events on one show impact the other and characters repeatedly crossover and influence events of other shows. AutumnKing (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Oliver Queen is an Arrow main character, any other appearance is simply a guest. A different disambiguator is not required when it is already disambiguated enough - does someone who comes across this article think it'll be about something that it is not? No. -- AlexTW 08:47, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose as AlexTheWhovian just said, this is the main protagonist of the Arrow series. Although I was eventually convinced to support a previous RM of John Diggle which ended with no consensus, I don't think Arrowverse is an improvement here. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 09:02, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- I would argue that for reasons of consistency and accuracy, Arrowverse is a better disambiguator. John Diggle (Arrowverse) has been moved; moving Oliver Queen (Arrow) would create consistency. This is already an established convention for franchise characters, for example Kes (Star Trek) or John Sheppard (Stargate) both disambiguated with their franchise names as opposed to the shows they originated on. For accuracy, the character Oliver Queen features across all the Arrowverse shows, and his main plot is advanced in these shows (for example the notion he has a son is introduced in season 2 of Arrow, the character is first seen in a season 1 episode of Flash, and Oliver first learns that he is in fact his son in the Flash/Arrow crossover "Legends of Today", which is also a back door pilot for Legends of Tomorrow). Therefore, Arrowverse would seem the more suitable disambiguator to accurately convey the subject matter of the article. AutumnKing (talk) 10:57, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support - Some basic facts are needed for this discussion. Oliver Queen/Arrow indeed debuted on the Arrow, yet this fact alone is meaningless to the WP:NCTV guideline, as nowhere does it state that the character must be disambiguated by the show he debuted on. Established practice has shown that when a media franchise has character articles, all character articles are disambiguated by the media franchise name as can be seen with these examples: Quark (Star Trek) (which was not from Star Trek), Rey (Star Wars) (which was not from Star Wars) and Claire Temple (Marvel Cinematic Universe). Arrowverse is both an official term used by the producers ([8]), a commonname term used by many RS ([9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17]), and also an accepted Wikipedia term to describe this media franchise as can be seen by Arrowverse, List of Arrowverse cast members, Template:Arrowverse, Category:Arrowverse - if this was just a "fan" made term, not supported by many RS from different independent sources, then these pages would not have been allowed to use these names. These facts alone should be enough to both allow and be enough to support this move, but if further convincing is required, then read on. Oliver Queen/Arrow has appeared in all shows, including both web series and in comics. His Earth-X counterpart (which this article should cover) is a main character of Freedom Fighters: The Ray and both Earth-1 and Earth-X versions have appeared as main characters on that show. So while, yes, he is the main character of his own series, he has both starred and had guest and recurring roles in other series of the franchise. In addition, as shown in previous discussions, Wentworth Miller, John Barrowman and Katie Cassidy, all signed contracts that made their characters series regulars in all Arrowverse shows ([18], [19]). So while some characters can have a "complicated" disambiguation choice (if articles for Arrowverse versions of Leonard Snart (or Mick Rory or many other characters were created, and if disambiguation for Sara Lance was needed) compared to others, per WP:CONSISTENCY all character articles should be named in the same manner, with "Arrowverse" being the best descriptive name and the one with the less possible conflicting arguments. --Gonnym (talk) 09:31, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, what NCTV says is that you should use the show as a disambiguartor. "Arrowverse" is NOT a show. Again, people keep trying to argue about the authenticity of "Arrowverse". That's not what is being debated. NCTV states to use the show as a disambiguator when it is necessary. "Arrow" is the show. Diggle, Queen...etc. are characters on "Arrow", not characters on "Arrowverse". That's not a show, that's a term used to describe the existence of multiple shows in the same universe. Both are only even special guests on other shows when they appear. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:51, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- Bignole But you have debated that. You have called "Arrowverse" a colloquial term, and disputed that it is a franchise. Below you are insisting it is a term used, and that people are somehow pretending it is a show. You are ignoring the franchise argument becuase you don't seem to believe it is either is one, or that Arrowverse is its name. Evidence presented would prove the contrary. The very basis of this argument is that it is indeed a franchise, and characters should be disambiguated as such as is already common practice. A character such as George Hammond (Stargate) who makes his first appearance in the television show Stargate SG-1 and not the film Stargate (film) is disambiguated with the term Stargate because that is the franchise name. For reasons of common sense and consistency, the same logic should apply to characters from the Arrowverse franchise. AutumnKing (talk) 07:32, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- If you re-read my argument you would see that I said that NCTV does not say that the show the character debuted on is the one it must use, which is what you and the others are arguing for. As I've stated, there are numerous examples of characters which are more known for a non-debut series and even 3 which have starring roles in ALL series. So with all this said, "Arrow" by itself is not a good enough name and per WP:CONSISTENCY they should all be named in the same style. Also, you've ignored, as others have in previous arguments, the fact that despite the guideline being unclear on this issue, common Wikipedia practice is in-fact to disambiguate with a broader term (usually franchise, but not only - see Genie (Disney)#Requested move 2 August 2018 for a discussion about a non-franchise term) as seen by Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, MCU examples provided. --Gonnym (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- No, but it says use the "show" as the preface of the disambiguation. Is "Arrowverse" a show? It isn't. Is Oliver Queen known primarily as the character on "Arrow"? Yes he is. Common usage of Oliver Queen is tied to "Arrow". NCTV says use the show moniker first.....The only reason I'm seeing for use of "Arrowverse" is because you want to treat that as an actual show that they are all on because they share a universe. That isn't the case. It's a term used, it's not an actual show to reference. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:00, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- If this conversation is going to be one-sided with you picking one word I'm saying and ignoring everything else, that's cool, just let me know so I can stop commenting back. Re-read my comments, especially the section where I talk about characters debuting in one series but starring in others and also common Wikipedia practice that uses franchise and other broader terms such as Disney, and not the exact TV series they've been in. --Gonnym (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'd also like to add a second, unrelated reason why the use of "Arrow" in the specific case of Oliver Queen causes ambiguity. "Arrow" is both the name of the TV series and also the name of one of his costumed names used for 4 seasons. So from this alone one cannot tell if the scope of the article is about the Oliver Queen character from Arrow or a narrower scope about the 4 seasons Oliver Queen was the "Arrow", and not "Green Arrow" and other Earth versions, such as Dark Arrow. This is supported by the fact that the Comics naming conventions has a section specifically for this, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (comics)#By character name. Using a word to disambiguate which itself causes other ambiguity problems is a bad choice for a word. --Gonnym (talk) 07:47, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- If this conversation is going to be one-sided with you picking one word I'm saying and ignoring everything else, that's cool, just let me know so I can stop commenting back. Re-read my comments, especially the section where I talk about characters debuting in one series but starring in others and also common Wikipedia practice that uses franchise and other broader terms such as Disney, and not the exact TV series they've been in. --Gonnym (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- No, but it says use the "show" as the preface of the disambiguation. Is "Arrowverse" a show? It isn't. Is Oliver Queen known primarily as the character on "Arrow"? Yes he is. Common usage of Oliver Queen is tied to "Arrow". NCTV says use the show moniker first.....The only reason I'm seeing for use of "Arrowverse" is because you want to treat that as an actual show that they are all on because they share a universe. That isn't the case. It's a term used, it's not an actual show to reference. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:00, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, what NCTV says is that you should use the show as a disambiguartor. "Arrowverse" is NOT a show. Again, people keep trying to argue about the authenticity of "Arrowverse". That's not what is being debated. NCTV states to use the show as a disambiguator when it is necessary. "Arrow" is the show. Diggle, Queen...etc. are characters on "Arrow", not characters on "Arrowverse". That's not a show, that's a term used to describe the existence of multiple shows in the same universe. Both are only even special guests on other shows when they appear. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:51, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support: Should be consistent with John Diggle (Arrowverse). I still think that the lesser-known John Diggle needs to be moved to make way for the Arrowverse character so that this page can be left alone, but if that’s not going to happen then we at least need to be consistent. (Arrowverse) makes just as much sense as (Arrow), especially for these characters that have frequently appeared outside of Arrow. Either way, make a decision and be consistent. Dhalh (talk) 17:07, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support - I closed the John Diggle move request, as a convincing argument was made that he is found not just in the original Arrow TV series, but in other series too, making him attached to the franchise (whose common name is Arrowverse), rather than the narrower show Arrow. The same applies here, and for WP:CONSISTENCY we should move it to match Diggle. — Amakuru (talk) 08:47, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:42, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support Franchise seems to be the standard way to disambiguate articles of this type. Daff22 (talk) 07:56, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Opppose main characters should disambiguate by the main series they're in while supporting characters who keep showing up in the franchise should disambiguate by the franchise verse עם ישראל חי (talk) 21:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- עם ישראל חי I haven't seen any precedence for that, and feel it can only really lead to further confusion. For example, John Sheppard (Stargate) is the lead character in Stargate Atlantis, but is disambiguated by the franchise not the show. Additionally, defining a 'main' character as opposed to supporting, across shows with multiple seasons and cast changes (particualrly in a franchise such as the Arrowverse where characters have changed status within and between shows, Sara Lance being the best example) leads far too much open to interpretation by individual editors. As is already the precedent, using franchise as the disambiguator allows consistency across the board. AutumnKing (talk) 10:00, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- I'd have to agree. WP:CONSISTENCY would disprove of your disambiguation style for some characters to have one modifier, while others another. --Gonnym (talk) 10:29, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- Except, you're choosing the "franchise" because it has a name, but are ignoring the fact that the franchise of "Star Trek", "Star Wars", "Stargate", are much bigger than any one show. People know Luke Skywalker from "Star Wars", but they don't specifically know him as the main character in "A New Hope" (mostly because that name came later - and yes, I know that name doesn't require disambiguation). People know Oliver Queen (or John Diggle) from "Arrow", not "Arrowverse". Article titles should be specific, based on common usage, and concise. As everyone keeps pointing out. And "Arrow" is more specific than "Arrowverse" (as he is primarily a character on "Arrow" - as the latter isn't a show), is primarily known for "Arrow" (so it's the common usage), and "Arrow" is more concise than "Arrowverse". BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- So basically, IDONTLIKEIT reason as Arrowverse is not as big as the other franchises? Don't remember reading that criteria anywhere in any guideline. Good to know. Also, could you please start providing backups to your claims? I was trying to ignore that fallacy but you keep bashing this on and on. Show us that people don't know Oliver Queen from the Arrowverse, we showed you the contrary, that reliable sources (and many of them) are using the Arrowverse a lot when referencing the shows and actors.--Gonnym (talk) 18:45, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- Where do you see "I don't like it" in anything that I just said? You showed where Arrowverse is being used, not that "Arrowverse" is being used when referring to characters (outside of crossover events). Here, here, here, here, here, and here are some examples of news stories over the recent years that talk about Stephen Amell and Oliver Queen. You'll notice that they say talk about him in relation to "Arrow", not "Arrowverse". In fact, only 1 of the sources I provide even mentions "Arrowverse" at all, and that's in response to how the "Arrowverse" would exist after "Arrow" goes off the air. Those were the top search results (I didn't even dig hard for that), and yet "Arrowverse" was so far from anyone's identifier when it comes to Amell and Oliver Queen. If it was so common place to see him as a character in the "Arrowverse", then wouldn't that be the identifying feature of how he is introduced, and not his actual show? BIGNOLE (Contact me) 20:12, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- 2 of your sources mention the Arrowverse: "This October brings the next season of The CW’s longest-running Arrowverse series, Arrow" and "The Arrowverse is a steadily expanding superhero universe — but eventually, it will inevitably have to say goodbye to its founding series, Arrow, or at the very least the titular character of Oliver Queen / Green Arrow." - both start the article with the logical hierarchy overview - Franchise (Arrowverse) -> TV series (Arrow) -> Character (Oliver Queen). --Gonnym (talk) 20:35, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- Again, as I pointed out the discussion of "Arrowverse" was in relation to the show. Not discounting the use of "Arrowverse", I'm pointing out that when discuss specific characters that are in reference to their respective shows, not the Arrowverse. Obviously, you didn't even read my statement that clearly said just that. Noticed how when those same sources talk about Amell and Oliver it's in relation to just "Arrow" and not "Arrowverse". The point of this objection to the move is that "oliver Queen" is best known as a character on "Arrow", not as a character in the "Arrowverse". At best, this page should be either Oliver Queen (Arrow) or Oliver Queen (Arrow character) (given the "Arrow" moniker for the vigilante persona). It shouldn't be Oliver Queen (Arrowverse) because that's not how he is known, that's not his primary existence, and that's not the most concise, specific way of identifying him. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:59, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- Again, you haven't proven that Oliver Queen is best known as a character on "Arrow" and not as part of the "Arrowverse", all you showed is that the "Arrowverse" isn't the TV series in which Oliver Queen appears, which as far as I know, no one in this discussion said otherwise. What we DID say, and what YOU fail to understand, is that our point is that it doesn't matter that he is from Arrow, as the Franchise name makes a better disambiguator as it covers all cases for all characters, creating a WP:CONSISTENCY between all articles and better serves to cover the scope of the subject - WP:PRECISE. And again, you ignore all other TV articles that use franchise as the disambiguator. --Gonnym (talk) 15:15, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- Again, as I pointed out the discussion of "Arrowverse" was in relation to the show. Not discounting the use of "Arrowverse", I'm pointing out that when discuss specific characters that are in reference to their respective shows, not the Arrowverse. Obviously, you didn't even read my statement that clearly said just that. Noticed how when those same sources talk about Amell and Oliver it's in relation to just "Arrow" and not "Arrowverse". The point of this objection to the move is that "oliver Queen" is best known as a character on "Arrow", not as a character in the "Arrowverse". At best, this page should be either Oliver Queen (Arrow) or Oliver Queen (Arrow character) (given the "Arrow" moniker for the vigilante persona). It shouldn't be Oliver Queen (Arrowverse) because that's not how he is known, that's not his primary existence, and that's not the most concise, specific way of identifying him. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:59, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- 2 of your sources mention the Arrowverse: "This October brings the next season of The CW’s longest-running Arrowverse series, Arrow" and "The Arrowverse is a steadily expanding superhero universe — but eventually, it will inevitably have to say goodbye to its founding series, Arrow, or at the very least the titular character of Oliver Queen / Green Arrow." - both start the article with the logical hierarchy overview - Franchise (Arrowverse) -> TV series (Arrow) -> Character (Oliver Queen). --Gonnym (talk) 20:35, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- Where do you see "I don't like it" in anything that I just said? You showed where Arrowverse is being used, not that "Arrowverse" is being used when referring to characters (outside of crossover events). Here, here, here, here, here, and here are some examples of news stories over the recent years that talk about Stephen Amell and Oliver Queen. You'll notice that they say talk about him in relation to "Arrow", not "Arrowverse". In fact, only 1 of the sources I provide even mentions "Arrowverse" at all, and that's in response to how the "Arrowverse" would exist after "Arrow" goes off the air. Those were the top search results (I didn't even dig hard for that), and yet "Arrowverse" was so far from anyone's identifier when it comes to Amell and Oliver Queen. If it was so common place to see him as a character in the "Arrowverse", then wouldn't that be the identifying feature of how he is introduced, and not his actual show? BIGNOLE (Contact me) 20:12, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- So basically, IDONTLIKEIT reason as Arrowverse is not as big as the other franchises? Don't remember reading that criteria anywhere in any guideline. Good to know. Also, could you please start providing backups to your claims? I was trying to ignore that fallacy but you keep bashing this on and on. Show us that people don't know Oliver Queen from the Arrowverse, we showed you the contrary, that reliable sources (and many of them) are using the Arrowverse a lot when referencing the shows and actors.--Gonnym (talk) 18:45, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- Except, you're choosing the "franchise" because it has a name, but are ignoring the fact that the franchise of "Star Trek", "Star Wars", "Stargate", are much bigger than any one show. People know Luke Skywalker from "Star Wars", but they don't specifically know him as the main character in "A New Hope" (mostly because that name came later - and yes, I know that name doesn't require disambiguation). People know Oliver Queen (or John Diggle) from "Arrow", not "Arrowverse". Article titles should be specific, based on common usage, and concise. As everyone keeps pointing out. And "Arrow" is more specific than "Arrowverse" (as he is primarily a character on "Arrow" - as the latter isn't a show), is primarily known for "Arrow" (so it's the common usage), and "Arrow" is more concise than "Arrowverse". BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- I'd have to agree. WP:CONSISTENCY would disprove of your disambiguation style for some characters to have one modifier, while others another. --Gonnym (talk) 10:29, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- עם ישראל חי I haven't seen any precedence for that, and feel it can only really lead to further confusion. For example, John Sheppard (Stargate) is the lead character in Stargate Atlantis, but is disambiguated by the franchise not the show. Additionally, defining a 'main' character as opposed to supporting, across shows with multiple seasons and cast changes (particualrly in a franchise such as the Arrowverse where characters have changed status within and between shows, Sara Lance being the best example) leads far too much open to interpretation by individual editors. As is already the precedent, using franchise as the disambiguator allows consistency across the board. AutumnKing (talk) 10:00, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Actually, I did. You haven't proven at all any measure that Oliver Queen is best known, even remotely known as a character in the "Arrowverse". Even if you want to do a basic search: 1.3 million results for "Oliver Queen"+"Arrow"+"Stephen Amell" (18k in "news" sources), versus 140k instances of the same thing, but with "Arrowverse" in its place (or 2800 in the news). Again, "Arrowverse" is an association of the shows itself, not the characters. This isn't the same situation of Law & Order, Star Trek, Star Wars, because all of the ancillary shows/films of those series are still "Law & Order", "Star Trek", "Star Wars", just with subtitles added. That's not the case here, just like it isn't the case in a similar franchise such as Buffyverse, which also disambiguates based on show and not the universe' name. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:56, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- Support per reasoning above. Obviously an exception has to be made at WP:NCTV for characters like this, who appear in multiple series. Another example that comes to mind is Miles O'Brien (Star Trek), a character from both Star Trek TNG and DS9. The disambiguation currently in place is neither of those series, but the Star Trek franchise itself, which is a common sense solution. -- Wikipedical (talk) 23:16, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Full name[edit]
Gonnym, is there a rule that the full names of fictional characters must not be used in their Wiki articles? Bignole treats it like there is, but I can't find any. Even though I added Ollie's full name "Oliver Jonas Queen" with this source, he kept reverting it citing various silly reasons. Yet why is there Felicity Megan Smoak and Clark Joseph Kent? --Kailash29792 (talk) 16:01, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Fictional people are not real people. Unless there is significance to the full name, it just becomes trivia. Felicity should be changed as well. The same with Clark Kent. Being able to cite a middle name is irrelevant because it's insignificant when understanding the character and since we are not writing about real people...Instead we should be focused on writing from an out-of-universe perspective. See writing about fiction: "Wikipedia articles should describe fiction and fictional elements from the perspective of the real world, not from the perspective of the fiction itself." We have a plot section, but everything else is supposed to be grounded in the real world. In the real world, Stephen Amell is "Oliver Queen", as credited and as commonly known. He is not credited as "Oliver 'Ollie' Jonas Queen". Knowledge of fictional trivia does not change the real world aspect of it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:13, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- There is no rule regarding what type of fiction information is allowed and what type is not allowed, the guideline Bignole cited says how to treat it (write: "Oliver Queen is a fictional archer appearing in..." not "Oliver Queen is an archer"). Writing a name as "Oliver Queen" or "Oliver Jonas Queen" does not viloate that guideline. It could be considered trivia, but that should be decided on a case by case basis and not a blanket statment which is unsupported by any guideline. Just to note though, that since Jonas is probably not mentioned a lot, it should probably be sourced to the episode it appears in, or to a RS that has that name so to pass WP:V. --Gonnym (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- There's no specific rule for a lot of things because are guides are based on using common sense to generalize to the rest of the article. In that same guideline: "Characters should not be presented as if they are real persons, fictional settings should not be treated as a real place, and so forth." - The only reason people think to include middle names is because of how we treat real people on Wikipedia, because we list their full legal names. Fictional characters do not have legal names, thus if the middle name is not something of significance, then it's just trivia about the character. Without significance, there is no relevant to knowing that his middle name is Jonas, or what Diggle's middle name is, or any other character. It's the reason why Michael Myers is just that, Michael Myers, and not "Michael Aubrey Myers", simply because someone down the line decided to give him a middle name. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:32, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- I honestly never considered the middle name of a fictional character to be trivia, but if it is, then why does Template:Infobox character have a field called "full_name" which gives the editor a legitimate option to fill it? Besides, I was maintaning consistency with Green Arrow which mentions "Oliver Jonas Queen". --Kailash29792 (talk) 05:34, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- There's no specific rule for a lot of things because are guides are based on using common sense to generalize to the rest of the article. In that same guideline: "Characters should not be presented as if they are real persons, fictional settings should not be treated as a real place, and so forth." - The only reason people think to include middle names is because of how we treat real people on Wikipedia, because we list their full legal names. Fictional characters do not have legal names, thus if the middle name is not something of significance, then it's just trivia about the character. Without significance, there is no relevant to knowing that his middle name is Jonas, or what Diggle's middle name is, or any other character. It's the reason why Michael Myers is just that, Michael Myers, and not "Michael Aubrey Myers", simply because someone down the line decided to give him a middle name. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:32, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- There is no rule regarding what type of fiction information is allowed and what type is not allowed, the guideline Bignole cited says how to treat it (write: "Oliver Queen is a fictional archer appearing in..." not "Oliver Queen is an archer"). Writing a name as "Oliver Queen" or "Oliver Jonas Queen" does not viloate that guideline. It could be considered trivia, but that should be decided on a case by case basis and not a blanket statment which is unsupported by any guideline. Just to note though, that since Jonas is probably not mentioned a lot, it should probably be sourced to the episode it appears in, or to a RS that has that name so to pass WP:V. --Gonnym (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Infobox family[edit]
I've noticed this increasing trend to list family and relationships in fictional character infoboxes. Per WP:WAF#Infoboxes and succession boxes and our own WP:MOSTV#Character article structure, in-universe information should be kept to a minimal of what would be essential to understanding the character at a glance. Infoboxes do not carry context, nor are they biographies. Felicity Smoak, Mia, and William are not essential to understanding Oliver Queen.
To quote: "When filling in the infobox, useful infobox data might include the creators or actors, first appearance, an image, and in-universe information essential to understanding the entity's context in the overall fiction. What qualifies as essential varies based on the nature of the work. Where facts change at different points in a story or series, there may be no appropriate in-universe information at all to add. By contrast, the average reader is probably not going to know who every member of Chloe Sullivan's family is, so it would not be essential to list them all. On the other hand, the average reader probably knows who Lois Lane is, and listing her as Chloe's cousin would be essential to understanding the character."
Their inclusion seems to be more about fan services because he's married with children than understanding what constitutes essential to the character. The question that one should always ask about in-universe information, whether the infobox or the article, is what would be lost if you did not include it? In an infobox that's even more important because the box doesn't provide for context. So, other than acknowledging he is married with children (which isn't essential to the character) what are you losing/gaining with the inclusion of family? For a character like Oliver Queen/Green Arrow, to me, that would seem like very little because he transcends the existence of characters that didn't exist outside the show in the first place. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 20:14, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Like a lot of guidelines that are afraid to explicitly say what is or is not ok to add, this one too chooses the word "essential". That word is useless in a guideline, as what is essential to one, might seem trivial to another. This has been proven true in countless discussions, including TfD mergers of {{Infobox fictional character}} templates. Since everyone seems to be afraid of addressing the real issue, which is the Infobox itself and having a real discussion on what should or should not be part of the infobox in a consistent manner across all related articles, any field which is available can be used (and I'm not even talking about the 15 anything goes parameters). To address this specific manner, I believe that the close family (so parents-siblings-spouse-children) of a character is "essential" to who the character is and what his place in the total narrative is. I also don't agree that the infobox does not provide context - "Children Mia Smoak" sure is sufficient context, as much as "Portrayed by Stephen Amell" provides. The added bonus, which the guidelines you used don't address, but other-related pages do, is that infobox is also used as a navigation tool, which it provides via the family members. --Gonnym (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- You're right, what is essential to one character may not be essential to another. Family is rarely essential to understanding the character of the article. We've included it because there are more obvious exceptions to that. "Context" is why that is essential to him, not the role they play. That's not context, that's just a role. Context would be explaining how she is essential, which you cannot do in an infobox. Oliver's children are not essential to him, nor is him being married. If you didn't see that in the infobox, you wouldn't understand him any less, because their existence does not automatically show significance to him (especially since he technically didn't raise either one of them in the show. His relationship with them came much later in both of their lives). Your claim that "I believe that the close family (so parents-siblings-spouse-children) of a character is "essential" to who the character is and what his place in the total narrative is." doesn't hold a lot of weight, IMO, simnply because of what I just pointed out. Oliver didn't have a relationship with Mia until these most recent episodes, so there's no shaping of him as a character, nor does it impact his narrative (which again you cannot provide context in an infobox to show that it does). William isn't any different. He appeared for a couple of seasons, and then was gone, only to return in the last 2 (all of which was not impacting Oliver, who had not relationship with him from 0 - 10, and then from 13 to 30). You're basic argument is that "if the parameter exists we should use it", which then undermines any argument about the essentialness of the information. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:42, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Plot sections[edit]
There is far too much plot information going on with this page. Character articles should have just enough to understand, with context, the real world information. There is more going on here than character articles with longer histories. We need to start trimming back details and summarizing more. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:58, 26 October 2020 (UTC)