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:Please read [[wp:rs]].[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 09:38, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
:Please read [[wp:rs]].[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 09:38, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
:{{Not done}}. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –[[User:Deacon Vorbis|Deacon Vorbis]] ([[User Talk:Deacon Vorbis|carbon]] • [[Special:Contributions/Deacon Vorbis|videos]]) 15:11, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
:{{Not done}}. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –[[User:Deacon Vorbis|Deacon Vorbis]] ([[User Talk:Deacon Vorbis|carbon]] • [[Special:Contributions/Deacon Vorbis|videos]]) 15:11, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

== This page violates wikipedia community standards. Extremely biased towards one community ==

Muslim violence against hindus is virtually nonexistent although 15 hindus died because of muslim violence. Muslim mobs were seen firing gun shots. The article has a lot of assumptions favouring the muslim community. As an example, in one place, the violence by muslim mobs is justified as a necessary step. Is this a personal blog? Chanting of jai shri ram by violent hindu mob is mentioned, but the chanting of allah hu akbar by violent muslim mob is nowhere to be seen. [[User:Quanta127|Quanta127]] ([[User talk:Quanta127|talk]]) 16:41, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:41, 23 April 2020

Template:IPA AE

1RR now in effect

Please be mindful, everyone. El_C 14:39, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can this fact be included in a new section or mentioned somewhere in the article. Zikrullah (talk) 18:03, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is noted in in the article whenever one edits, in Template:Editnotices/Page/2020 Delhi riots, as well as at the top of this talk page in Template:IPA AE. El_C 18:52, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler's: Developing the article main body, and eventually rewriting the lead (in POV-embattled India-related articles)

"POV-embattled," by the way, means battlements of POV dot, litter, even crisscross the topic. This is long, but please bear with me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stage 1

The lead which is locked in the article right now is a summary of the topic, not the main body. It has due weight and overall reliability. In Stage 1, we have cited and summarized content from newspapers:

  • (a) which have correspondents based in India.
  • (b) whose articles (which are of interest to us) have bylines (i.e. the name of the correspondents shows up below the title of their story) and
  • (c) which are published in liberal democracies where there is no significant POV around this issue. (i.e. South Asian newspapers have been ruled out at this stage.)

We have cited from: NYTimes, Washington Post, Independent, Guardian, Times (London), and Le Monde. (There are obviously others as well, which we did not use. I will make a list elsewhere of newspapers which have correspondents based in India.)

By definition, the lead will not have all the notable details. The sources it cites may not have all the notable details either, because their main audience (an international one) may not be conversant with, or generally interested in, all local details. For expansion, therefore, you will need to look at the reliable high-quality Indian sources whose perspectives match the one in the lead, which now serves as a template of DUE.

Stage 2

In my view, for recent Indian events just six national newspapers in India are enough for fleshing out the details:

The Statesman (Kolkata, founded 1875/1817), The Hindu (Chennai, founded 1878), The Free Press Journal (Mumbai, founded 1928), The Indian Express (Delhi, founded 1933), Deccan Chronicle (Hyderabad, founded 1938), and The Telegraph (Kolkata) (founded 1982)

  • Question: Why bother to write such a lead in the first place?
  • Answer: Because if we don't, we will not have a DUE summary of the topic against which to measure the neutrality of our additions. Later, when a topic becomes older, text-books, other encyclopedias, reviews of literature, and so forth, become available for determining DUE, but for now, there is nothing else. Also, as the lead is what people read first, and sometimes, they read no further: it is important for it to be comprehensive and neutral, especially when the rest of the article is not.
  • Question: Why start with only these six Indian newspapers?
  • Answer: Because these newspapers have old traditions of excellence and independence. As print newspapers based in different regions of India, they necessarily have to summarize—in the multi-ethnic Indian context—in a manner that local or digital newspapers do not.

As an example, consider the "peace marches" in the New York Times story, which have been paraphrased in the lead as:

After the violence had abated in the thickly-settled mixed Hindu-Muslim neighbourhoods of North East Delhi, some Hindu politicians paraded alleged Hindu victims of Muslim violence in an attempt to reshape the accounting of events and to further inflame hostility towards Muslims.[1]

References

  1. ^ Gettleman, Jeffrey; Yasir, Sameer; Raj, Suhasini; Kumar, Hari (12 March 2020), "'If We Kill You, Nothing Will Happen': How Delhi's Police Turned Against Muslims", The New York Times, Photographs by Loke, Atul, retrieved 13 March 2020, The religiously mixed and extremely crowded neighborhoods in northeastern Delhi that were on fire in late February have cooled. But some Hindu politicians continue to lead so-called peace marches, trotting out casualties of the violence with their heads wrapped in white medical tape, trying to upend the narrative and make Hindus seem like the victims, which is stoking more anti-Muslim hatred.

There are stories about one peace march on February 29 in:

These should, therefore, be used to further expand the topic of peace marches, at least one peace march. Similarly, determining whether there were other marches, before or after, will require examining these sources for other dates.

Stage 3
After the main body is fleshed out in such fashion, the lead should be rewritten by summing up the main body. No footnotes, let alone extended quotes, will then be required in the lead unless a statement is highly controversial. But for now, they are essential.

In the language of artificial intelligence, the stages are 1: The lead is written using sources that are relatively low-res (or high-level (OED: high-level: relating to or concerned with a subject, system, or phenomenon as a whole, rather than its particular details.), or macro-level). 2. The main body is fleshed out using sources that are high-res (low-level, micro-level), but in keeping with the content of stage 1 (i.e. DUE). 3. The lead is rewritten as a low-res/high-level version of the main body.

Good luck, @SerChevalerie, NedFausa, SharabSalam, Kautilya3, Slatersteven, and DIYeditor: Pinging also: @RegentsPark, Abecedare, DougWeller, El C, Anachronist, Drmies, Johnbod, Bishonen, and Vanamonde93: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler, thanks. SerChevalerie (talk) 14:34, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Even though you haven't pinged me, I have been keeping this talk page in my watchlist. You did very well! Thank you, Fowler&fowler. --KartikeyaS (talk) 08:58, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler's List of foreign newspapers with correspondents in India

Dear @SerChevalerie, NedFausa, SharabSalam, Kautilya3, Slatersteven, DIYeditor, and KartikeyaS343: Pinging also: @RegentsPark, Abecedare, DougWeller, El C, Anachronist, Drmies, Johnbod, Bishonen, and Vanamonde93: Collapsed below is a list I had mentioned above. It is much bigger than I had thought, and there are still some (Haarets, Jerusalem Post, in Israel, South African newspapers) which I have not examined. Still, used judiciously, it may prove useful in the future. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS I have not added the links/urls for newspapers that rigorously require a subscription, only the titles of the stories. (It is easier to search the title on Google.) If someone wants small blurbs from them, I'm happy to provide them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

North America

Newspapers and other media in the US and Canada with correspondents in India
  • The Washington Post. (Subscrip. Req.) Joana Slater (India bureau chief), Neha Masih, Tania Dutta
  • "Worst communal violence in Delhi in decades leaves 17 dead as Trump visits India," February 25, by Slater, Masih, and Dutta
  • "Death toll passes 30 in Delhi violence as Modi issues plea for calm," February 26, Slater, Masih.
  • "Criticism of police grows after mob violence kills nearly 40 in India’s capital," February 27, by Slater
  • "Criticism of police grows after mob violence kills nearly 40 in India’s capital," February 27, Slater
  • "What Delhi’s worst communal violence in decades means for Modi’s India," March 2, Slater and Masih
  • The Wall Street Journal Bill Spindle (South Asia bureau chief); Vibhuti Agarwal (Commodities Reporter); Krishna Pokharel (Reporter)
  • "India’s Ruling Party, Government Slammed Over Delhi Violence," (subscription required; Pokharel, Agarwal, Spindle, February 26)
  • "India Begins Probe of Clashes That Left 38 Dead," (subscription required; Agarwal, Spindle, February 27)
  • The Christian Science Monitor (Subscrip. Not Req.) An American newspaper with a notable record of international reporting. Farhad Shah, India contributor
  • Associated Press (Subscrip. Not Req.)
  • Correspondents: Emily Schmall (South Asia correspondent) Sheikh Saaliq, Ashok Sharma
Sometimes the same article is carried with bylines by some newspapers and without by others:
  • Stories carried without byline by:
  • Toronto Star does not have a correspondent in Delhi, and generally uses AP
  • The Globe and Mail, Toronto, also does not have a correspondent in Delhi and uses AP and Reuters.
  • CBS (Columbia Broadcasting System, United States), correspondent: Arshad Zagar

United Kingdom and Ireland

Newspapers and other media in the UK and Ireland with correspondents in India
  • The Times (Subscrip. Req.) Hugh Tomlinson, South Asia correspondent, based in Delhi; Saurabh Sharma, Delhi
  • "Donald Trump’s visit to India marred by deadly violence against Muslims," February 26, by Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • "Hindu mobs threaten to purge Delhi of Muslims," February 27, Hugh Tomlinson
  • "Heroes rise in a city torn apart by riots," March 3, Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • "Anti-Modi protesters named on billboards," March 11, Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • "Anti-Modi protesters ordered to sign ‘good behaviour’ pledge," March 17, Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • Guardian, Hannah Ellis-Peterson, Delhi correspondent.
  • " ‘Targeted for being Muslim’: Inside the mosque burnt by rioters in worst Delhi violence for decades," February 26, by Adam Withnall
  • "Delhi riots: Death toll rises to 27 with mosque set on fire in deadliest violence in capital in decades," February 26, by Adam Withnall.
  • "Delhi riots: Dust settles after worst religious violence in decades as locals demand accountability," February 27, by Adam Withnall.
  • "UN human rights chief launches unprecedented legal action against Indian government over citizenship protests," March 3, by Adam Withnall
  • "Delhi riots: Violence that killed 53 in Indian capital ‘was anti-Muslim pogrom’, says top expert," March 7, by Adam Withnall
  • "The betrayal felt in the still-recovering areas hit by the Delhi riots makes coronavirus more of a threat," March 15, Pyall Dhar
  • "Why an Islamic gathering in Delhi has taken centre stage in India’s coronavirus debate," March 31, Adam Withnall
  • Financial Times, (Subscrip. Req.) Amy Kazmin South Asia Bureau Chief, based in Delhi; Stephanie Findlay, South Asia correspondent.
  • "New Delhi religious riots claim 17 lives in two days of violence," February 25, by Amy Kazmin
  • "Thousands of paramilitary police deployed in New Delhi after riots," February 26, by Amy Kazmin and Stephanie Findlay
  • "Narendra Modi woos world leaders in a city haunted by violence," February 26, by Amy Kazmin
  • "India riots: ‘We were attacked because we are Muslim’," February 28, by Stephanie Findlay and Amy Kazmin
  • Economist (Subscrip. Req.) (does not have bylines by tradition, only the location of the reporter)
  • "More than a dozen killed, hundreds injured as New Delhi riots overshadow Trump visit," February 25, Devjyot Ghosal, Manoj Kumar, New Delhi
  • "A mob out for blood: India's protests pit Hindus against Muslims," February 26, Danish Siddiqui and Devjyot Ghosal, New Delhi
  • "Death toll rises to 32 in religious violence in India's capital," February 27, by Aftab Ahmed, New Delhi
  • "A Delhi neighborhood divided by a highway and now hatred," February 27, by Aftab Ahmed, New Delhi
  • "Indian lawmakers scuffle over citizenship riots where 41 died," March 2 by Alisdair Pal and Aftab Ahmed, New Delhi
  • "More 'apartheid cities' seen in India after deadly Delhi riots," March 5, by Rina Chandran
  • "Delhi's displaced scrape a living after deadly riots," March 4, Alisdair Pal and Devjyot Ghosal, New Delhi
  • Irish Times, (Subscrip. Not Req.) Rahul Bedi, Contributor, New Delhi

Europe

Newspapers and other media in Europe with correspondents in India
  • Le Monde, (Subscrip. Req.) Sophie Landrin, India correspondent
  • "Trump célèbre la tolérance indienne quand des heurts intercommunautaires embrasent New Delhi," ("Trump celebrates Indian tolerance when cross-community clashes set fire to New Delhi") 25 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "Inde : New Delhi en proie à de violents conflits intercommunautaires" ("India: New Delhi plagued by violent inter-community conflicts"), 26 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "A New Delhi, trois jours de terreur" ("In New Delhi, three days of terror"), 27 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "Attaques contre les musulmans à New Delhi : « J’ai pensé que j’allais mourir »" ("Attacks on Muslims in New Delhi: 'I thought I was going to die' "), 04 mars 2020, Sophie Landrin

Asia and Australia

Newspapers in Asia and Australia with correspondents in India
  • The Australian, generally carries articles from The Times, London. (Hugh Tomlinson, See above.)
  • The Age Melbourne, Ashok Sharma (AP)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed removal of a sentence from the lead

I propose removal of a sentence from the third para of the lead. Following is the sentence:

"When in response to Mishra's ultimatum, Hindu men began to gather, violence erupted."

This sentence is unsourced and there is no reliable source present in the adjacent sentences to confirm the authenticity of this statement that Hindu men began to gather in response to Kapil Mishra's ultimatum and as a result, violent erupted. In fact, in his ultimatum dt 23rd February 2020, Mishra had said that he and his men are retreating and will remain silent until Trump leaves the country. Trump left India on 25th February but riots began on 23rd February itself. -Yoonadue (talk) 10:08, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I applaud Yoonadue for raising this issue here, where it belongs, after yesterday falsely calling it spam and then edit warring over its restoration. Questioning this sentence is important because it directly ascribes the deadly violence to an individual, Kapil Mishra, whom we name. The nearest following inline citation is to a perennially reliable source, The New York Times, which does not name Kapil Mishra. It does, however, mention "members of Mr. Modi's party who have been widely accused of instigating the recent violence in Delhi." (For the record, Kapil Mishra and Prime Minister Narendra Modi both belong to the Bharatiya Janata Party.) Please note the hyperlink within the quoted passage; it redirects to an earlier story in The New York Times that does name Kapil Mishra. Following his "fiery speech" of February 23, The Times reports: "Within hours, the worst Hindu-Muslim violence in India in years was exploding." The Times does not expressly say that Hindu men gathered in response to Mishra's ultimatum or that violence erupted because of his fiery speech. The Times does, though, strongly insinuate such causation. As Wikipedians adherent to WP:Libel, we must ask ourselves if this is good enough to, in effect, indict Kapil Mishra for inciting murderous rioting. I think not. The disputed sentence should be promptly rewritten or removed. NedFausa (talk) 17:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In response to the above note and a message on my talkpage: Libel seems to be a stretch given the cited article saying, When the violence started on Feb. 23 — as Hindu men gathered to forcibly eject a peaceful Muslim protest near their neighborhood, especially when that is read in context of the earlier NYT article that Ned pointed out, which is devoted to analyzing Mishra role as the alleged instigator. Nevertheless, out of an abundance of caution, I have for now modified the language in the sentence to indicate only a temporal connection between the speech and the violence, rather than a causal one. Editors are welcome/encouraged to discuss and decide, what exact phrasing is preferable and what sources should be cited; my ad hoc word-choice need not be given any extra weight, although please leave it in place till an alternative gains consensus. Abecedare (talk) 23:46, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ Abecedare,

The new version of the sentence as edited by you is as follows:

After Mishra's ultimatum, Hindu men began to gather and violence erupted. This is a very slight change in the original sentence and hence it doesn't settle the issue. What you have presented from a source in support of the sentence is this :

When the violence started on Feb. 23 — as Hindu men gathered to forcibly eject a peaceful Muslim protest near their neighborhood

I am sorry but this source doesn't imply that after Mishra's ultimatum, Hindu men began to gather and violence erupted. If we go by local sources, Hindu men had gathered before the said ultimatum and minor stone pelting might have happened from both the sides. But after police intervention and Mishra's ultimatum (related to Trump's visit), Hindus had retreated. This indicates that the lethal violence was actually initiated by the Muslim rioters. However, we don't have sources to support this statement as well. Thats why I have proposed to remove the said sentence rather than making a change to it. -Yoonadue (talk) 03:18, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please give me some time. I will post here later today and give you a summary of what of the foreign sources say (in Stage 1) and the notable Indian ones do (in Stage 2). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:54, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Yoonadue: Sorry for the delayed response but, as I indicated above, the issue is best discussed with other involved editors (who I am glad to see are already engaged) and I, as an admin, don't get to decide the content by diktat. A couple of general tips though:
  1. If you refer to local or other sources, specify and (ideally) link to them, so that others can examine the quality of sources and what exactly they say.
  2. If "we don't have sources to support X statement", don't bring X statement into the discussion. That just detracts from the task of analyzing and summarizing what the best sources on a topic say, which is what wikipedians do.
Abecedare (talk) 13:40, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler's Foreign newspapers and other media in India on the event(s) leading to the riot

As promised I have collected all the reliable foreign sources. Here they are. There are a lot of them; they will need to be summarized with prudence and common sense. Good luck. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:32, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Foreign newspapers and other media in India on the event(s) leading to the riot
North America
  • Quote: "The next day, Kapil Mishra, a local leader from Mr. Modi’s political party, showed up. He threatened to mobilize a mob to clear out the protesters. He said he did not want to create trouble while Mr. Trump was visiting, but he warned the police that as soon as Mr. Trump left India on Tuesday night, his followers would clear the streets if the police did not. Tensions shot up. As Sunday evening approached, gangs of Hindu men and Muslim men began throwing rocks at each other.
  • Quote:"Much of the blame for the violence is falling on Kapil Mishra, a local politician from Mr. Modi’s political party. On Sunday, Mr. Mishra threatened to mobilize a mob to clear out protesters who have been demonstrating against a new citizenship law, which is widely seen as discriminating against Muslims. Mr. Mishra said he did not want to create trouble during Mr. Trump’s two-day trip. But Mr. Mishra warned the police that as soon as Mr. Trump left India on Tuesday, his followers would take action against the protesters, who were mostly Muslim women, if the police did not. As Sunday evening approached, gangs of Hindu and Muslim men began throwing rocks at each other. This quickly degenerated into wider violence."
  • Quote: "To many in the eastern Delhi neighborhood where a convulsion of religious violence erupted this week, it all began with one man. Kapil Mishra, a local politician with India’s leading Hindu nationalist party, had just lost an election. Acquaintances in the area, which now feels like a war zone, said he had been looking for a way to bounce back. ... On Sunday, he appeared at a rally against a group of protesters (most of them women) who were objecting to a new citizenship law widely seen as discriminatory toward Muslims. There he vented his anger in a fiery speech in which he issued an ultimatum to the police: either clear out the demonstrators, who were blocking a main road, or he and his followers would do it themselves. Within hours, the worst Hindu-Muslim violence in India in years was exploding. Gangs of Hindus and Muslims fought each other with swords and bats, shops burst into flames, chunks of bricks sailed through the air, and mobs rained blows on cornered men."
  • Quote: "On Feb. 23, a member of Mr. Modi’s party lit the spark. That afternoon, Kapil Mishra, a B.J.P. politician who had just lost a state Assembly election and seemed to be trying to rejuvenate his career, threatened to clear out a group of peaceful Muslim protesters, mostly women, who had been blocking a road. Hindus and Muslims then started throwing rocks at each other, and the unruly crowd grew."
  • The Washington Post. (Subscrip. Req.) Joana Slater (India bureau chief), Neha Masih, Tania Dutta
  • "Worst communal violence in Delhi in decades leaves 17 dead as Trump visits India," February 25, by Slater, Masih, and Dutta
  • Quote:"The trigger for the clashes came when Kapil Mishra, a local leader of Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party, on Sunday threatened to clear a sit-in mounted by protesters, nearly all Muslim women, against the citizenship law. He said he would take no action while Trump was visiting but that if police did not move the protesters soon, he would take matters into his own hands. What happened next remains unclear and chaotic, but groups of Hindus and Muslims hurled stones at one another Monday. Adil Khan, 29, lives in the neighborhood of Kardampuri and said Muslims gathered in the street to defend themselves after a message went out that a mob was massing to attack. By the next morning, the mob was closer."
  • "Death toll passes 30 in Delhi violence as Modi issues plea for calm," February 26, Slater, Masih.
  • Quote:"Meanwhile, members of Modi’s ruling Bharatiya Janata Party have vilified the protesters, calling them traitors who deserve to be shot and linking them with India’s rival Pakistan. One such leader, Kapil Mishra, helped trigger this week’s violence: He threatened to clear a sit-in conducted by Muslim women, sparking a clash between supporters and opponents of the citizenship law."
  • The Wall Street Journal Bill Spindle (South Asia bureau chief); Vibhuti Agarwal (Commodities Reporter); Krishna Pokharel (Reporter)
  • "India’s Ruling Party, Government Slammed Over Delhi Violence," (subscription required; Pokharel, Agarwal, Spindle, February 26)
  • "India Begins Probe of Clashes That Left 38 Dead," (subscription required; Agarwal, Spindle, February 27)
  • "The violence began on Sunday after a local BJP politician with a history of sectarian provocations organized a demonstration in support of the citizenship law. Other groups critical of the law had been peacefully protesting against it in the area almost since its passage in December, but recently they were blocking a neighborhood thoroughfare. The BJP politician, Kapil Mishra, had said he would rally his supporters to clear the street if police didn’t before the end of Mr. Trump’s visit Tuesday evening. By Monday, however, the confrontational demonstrations had devolved into rioting through a swath of the capital city’s northeastern periphery."
  • Associated Press (Subscrip. Not Req.)
  • Correspondents: Emily Schmall (South Asia correspondent) Sheikh Saaliq, Ashok Sharma
Quote: "Kapil Mishra, a local leader of Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party who lost his Delhi state assembly seat in recent elections, held his own rally, urging police to clear out the protesters. “They want Delhi to burn,” Mishra said with a police official standing beside him. “I am saying this on behalf of the crowd that we will be peaceful until Trump is here. Once he leaves, we won’t even listen to you if the roads aren’t cleared of demonstrators,” he said, referring to the police. By Friday, the death toll from the violence that followed, between Hindus and Muslims who had lived side by side for centuries but attacked each other with guns and swords, metal rods and axes, had risen to 38."
  • Quote: "FRAYER: "We'll hold back only until Trump departs," Kapil Mishra, local leader of Modi's party, told his supporters Sunday. He said police had better evict protesters or else his loyalists would do it themselves, he said. And that appears to be what happened Tuesday night. Hindu mobs appear to have targeted Muslims primarily, not protesters."
  • Quote: "Clashes erupted Sunday after a local official from Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Hindu nationalist party vowed to clear anti-government protesters from the city. The local politician, Kapil Mishra, led a rally in Jaffrabad and tweeted that Delhi police had three days to clear the protest sites. Groups were soon throwing rocks and attacking one another. Mishra and other Bharatiya Janata Party leaders have been accused of inciting violence through their speeches."
  • Quote: "We'll hold back only until Trump departs," Kapil Mishra, a local BJP leader, told his supporters on Feb. 23. And that's what appears to have happened. On the night of Feb. 25, violence erupted on a much larger scale, as Trump departed. Mobs torched Muslim homes, chanting "Jai Shri Ram" — praise Lord Ram, one of the Hindu gods. They appear to have targeted Muslims indiscriminately, rather than targeting protesters."
  • CBS (Columbia Broadcasting System, United States), correspondent: Arshad Zagar
  • Quote: "The Delhi judge who accused the police of failing to cite politicians for hate speech was transferred to a different court later the same night. The government called his transfer "routine," and said it had been arranged previously. The new judge heard the case on Thursday and gave the government one month to tell the court what action it has taken against the politicians for their alleged hate speech. An address by a Hindu leader of Prime Minister Modi's own party sparked the complaints of hate speech. Kapil Mishra had told a crowd, in front of a senior police officer, that he had appealed to the police to clear the anti-citizenship law protest sites. "I want to tell them (police) that we will stay silent until Trump's departure, but after that we will not even listen to you," Mishra said.
United Kingdom and Ireland
  • The Times (Subscrip. Req.) Hugh Tomlinson, South Asia correspondent, based in Delhi; Saurabh Sharma, Delhi
  • "Hindu mobs threaten to purge Delhi of Muslims," February 27, Hugh Tomlinson
  • "Three days of riots have turned mixed neighbourhoods into war zones, with armed Hindu gangs roaming the streets, looting and burning Muslim shops and homes. The violence is the culmination of protests that broke out in December against a citizenship law enacted by the Hindu nationalist government of Narendra Modi. Clashes that erupted when Hindu gangs attacked a Muslim anti-government demonstration on Monday swept through neighbourhoods in the northeast of the capital yesterday, gathering in ferocity. The death toll from the worst violence seen in the Indian capital for decades climbed to 34 today with more than 200 injured."
  • "Narendra Modi can turn India’s crisis to his advantage," February 28, Philip Collins
  • Quote: "The prime minister should also distance himself from the rabble-rousing elements of his own party, such as Kapil Mishra, a local BJP politician who has done much to inflame Hindu sentiment in Delhi. It is surely right that, in a democracy, the death of 35 people in the capital should provoke the resignation of an accountable minister. Mr Modi ought to replace his home minister, Amit Shah, who last year described Bangladeshi immigrants as “termites”.
  • Guardian, Hannah Ellis-Peterson, Delhi correspondent.
  • Quote: "The unrest in the capital began on Sunday in north-east Delhi, when a Kapil Mishra, a local leader from Modi’s BJP party, threatened to violently remove a group of Muslim protesters who had been peacefully blocking a local road in protest against a controversial new citizenship amendment act (CAA), which many believe discriminates against Muslims. Mishra’s incendiary rhetoric against the Muslims riled up a Hindu mob, and Hindus and Muslims began clashing in the streets, throwing stones and setting alight to local businesses. The communal violence further escalated as rumours that Hindu icons had been demolished by local Muslims and a mob of Hindu rioters were pictured violently beating a Muslim man with sticks and baseball bats as he lay bloodied in the street, crying for help. A policeman was killed when he was hit in the head by a flying rock, and multiple journalists were hospitalised as they were attacked by mobs."
  • Quote: "The immediate causes of events are the fallout from Narendra Modi’s unjust Citizenship (Amendment) Act, the dangerous rhetoric employed by the ruling Bharatiya Janata party in Delhi’s city elections this month, and the mob incitement by BJP leaders like Kapil Mishra, to violently remove a group of Muslims who were blocking a road in the capital’s north-west to protest against the legislation. Scuffles quickly escalated. But it is clear that many defenceless Muslims were the primary targets and victims. Witnesses described the police simply standing by, joining crowds chanting nationalist slogans, or firing indiscriminately. BJP leaders were reportedly recorded encouraging crowds to chant “shoot the traitors” and accusing the peaceful protestors of being “rapists and murderers”. This is awful but unsurprising."
  • Quote: "The spark for the latest violence was provided by Kapil Mishra, a BJP leader who had just lost his seat in those elections, when he incited a Hindu mob to violently remove a group of Muslims who were blocking a road in north-east Delhi in protest against the CAA. Addressing the peaceful protest, Mishra issued an inflammatory ultimatum: “If the roads are not cleared … we will be forced to hit the streets.” Stone pelting began between Muslims and Hindus, which quickly descended into the violence that spread through the city."
  • Quote: "The catalyst for the riots is widely acknowledged to have been a comment by Kapil Mishra, a BJP leader, who on 23 February issued a public ultimatum declaring that if the police did not clear the streets of a protest against a new citizenship law seen as anti-Muslim, his supporters would be “forced to hit the streets”. Ravinder, a 17-year-old who works in his father’s property business and is part of India’s lower-caste Gujjar community, said he and other young Hindu men had heard Mishra’s call to action against the Muslim community, and began to mobilise on the morning of 24 February without any fear of police reprisal. “There was a clear instruction of catch-and-kill action against any Muslim we could spot,” said Ravinder. “I was in a group of around 15 boys. Many senior brothers said to us that police would not take any action against any member of our community and we could attack the people on the other side [Muslims] the way we liked.” Ravinder described how he and a group of seven men had captured a Muslim rickshaw driver in his 40s, beaten him with wooden sticks and metal rods until he appeared dead, and then threw him in an open drain while police stood by. He also said the police had instructed them to destroy the CCTV cameras as they marauded through the streets."
  • "Delhi riots: Violence that killed 53 in Indian capital ‘was anti-Muslim pogrom’, says top expert," March 7, by Adam Withnall
  • Quote: "Amid heightened tensions, the situation appears to have boiled over on Sunday after a prominent BJP politician, Kapil Mishra, called on Hindu nationalists to take to the streets and “give an answer” to sit-in protesters demonstrating against Mr Modi’s new citizenship laws."
  • Financial Times, (Subscrip. Req.) Amy Kazmin South Asia Bureau Chief, based in Delhi; Stephanie Findlay, South Asia correspondent.
  • "India riots: ‘We were attacked because we are Muslim’," February 28, by Stephanie Findlay and Amy Kazmin
  • Quote: "Tensions had surged on Sunday after Kapil Mishra, a politician from the ruling Bharatiya Janata party, gave an inflammatory speech demanding that police clear the streets of Muslim protesters and vowing that if they did not, citizens like him would do so once Mr Trump had left."
  • "Narendra Modi is taking India down a dangerous path," February 28, The Editorial Board of The Financial Times
  • Quote: "Trouble in the affected area flared on Sunday after Kapil Mishra, a hardline local BJP leader, threatened Muslims who were blocking a road in an otherwise peaceful protest against the citizenship law. Addressing a crowd of rightwing Hindus right next to the sit-in, he warned that if the protesters were not gone by the time Mr Trump's visit was over, they would take matters into their own hands. Shortly afterwards, witnesses said, groups of Hindus and Muslims began pelting each other with stones. By Monday, large areas were in the grip of a full-scale riot, with mobs of Hindu men, carrying firearms, petrol bombs and iron rods, marauding through the area's congested streets, attacking passers-by and setting fire to property they suspected of being Muslim-owned."
  • Economist (Subscrip. Req.) (does not have bylines by tradition, only the location of the reporter)
  • Quote: "The trigger for the riots appears to have been a rally by another local politician, who declared that if a sit-in by Muslim women protesting against the citizenship rules was not lifted by the time Mr Trump left India, his supporters would no longer remain peaceful. Soon after, mobs went on the rampage in Muslim neighbourhoods, often with police looking mutely on or, say many witnesses, aiding the attackers."
  • Quote: "During the riots in Delhi, it was only after the high court ordered police to help evacuate wounded people to hospital that the city’s 80,000-person police force began to intervene, after 48 hours of arson and murder. The same bench also demanded that the police register cases against members of the bjp for hate speech, which they had refused to do despite copious footage of politicians calling for protesters to be shot. Hours later the Supreme Court transferred one of the troublesome judges out of Delhi. The next day the high court postponed all hearings about hate speech to April. As the bodies were fished out of Delhi’s fetid canals, it became clear that some three-quarters of the victims had Muslim names. Most of the homes and businesses damaged in the riots belonged to Muslims. Yet the police seem to think that Muslims orchestrated it all."
  • Quote: "It was only a matter of time before Delhi's fragile stability would be shaken. On Sunday a BJP leader issued a threat, telling the Delhi police they had three days to clear the sites where people had been protesting against the citizenship law and warned of consequences if they failed to do so. The first reports of clashes emerged later that day. The ethnic violence that followed was a tragedy foretold."
Europe
  • Le Monde, (Subscrip. Req.) Sophie Landrin, India correspondent
  • "Trump célèbre la tolérance indienne quand des heurts intercommunautaires embrasent New Delhi," ("Trump celebrates Indian tolerance when cross-community clashes set fire to New Delhi") 25 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "Inde : New Delhi en proie à de violents conflits intercommunautaires" ("India: New Delhi plagued by violent inter-community conflicts"), 26 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "A New Delhi, trois jours de terreur" ("In New Delhi, three days of terror"), 27 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • Quote: "Les violences ont-elles été minutieusement préparées et orchestrées en amont pour transformer cette contestation jusque-là pacifique en un confit intercommunautaire ? L’hypothèse est crédible. Tout a commencé le 22 février, lorsqu’un leader local du BJP, Kapil Mishra, a rassemblé ses partisans dans le nord de New Delhi pour déloger des femmes qui venaient d’investir une route pour protester contre la loi sur la nationalité, à l’image des femmes de Shaheen Bagh, qui bloquent depuis le 15 décembre 2019 une route dans le sud de New Delhi. L’homme avait donné trois jours à la police pour évacuer les contestataires, le temps que Donald Trump achève sa visite en Inde, menaçant dans le cas contraire d’intervenir. Dimanche, alors que le président américain entamait des négociations commerciales avec Narendra Modi, les heurts éclataient." (Was the violence carefully planned and orchestrated beforehand to transform this hitherto peaceful protest into an inter-community conflict? The assumption is credible. It all started on February 22 when a local BJP leader, Kapil Mishra, gathered his supporters in northern New Delhi to dislodge women who had just taken a road to protest the nationality law, at the image of the women of Shaheen Bagh, who have blocked a road in south New Delhi since December 15, 2019. Man gave police three days to evacuate protesters, while Donald Trump completes visit to India,otherwise threatening to intervene. Sunday, when the American president started trade negotiations with Narendra Modi, clashes broke out.")
  • "Attaques contre les musulmans à New Delhi : « J’ai pensé que j’allais mourir »" ("Attacks on Muslims in New Delhi: 'I thought I was going to die' "), 04 mars 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "New Delhi : le déchaînement de violences contre les musulmans en photos," March 1, 2020, Mathilda Hautbois
  • Quote: "Kapil Mishra, un leader du parti Bharatiya Janata (BJP), la formation nationaliste du premier ministre indien Narendra Modi, est à l’origine de ces heurts. Il a incité des nationalistes hindous à s’opposer au blocage d’une route par des femmes musulmanes qui protestaient pacifiquement contre la loi controversée sur la citoyenneté. «Si les routes ne sont pas dégagées, nous serons obligés de descendre dans les rues», avait annoncé Mishra. La violence s’est rapidement répandue dans la ville. Des hindous ont demandé à voir les cartes d'identité d'hommes qu'ils arrêtaient dans la rue. Le Guardian rapporte que si un homme refusait, il était obligé de montrer s'il était circoncis ou non. ("Kapil Mishra, a leader of the Bharatiya Janata (BJP) party, the nationalist party of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, is behind these clashes. He incited Hindu nationalists to oppose the blocking of a road by Muslim women who peacefully protested the controversial citizenship law. "If the roads are not cleared, we will have to take to the streets," said Mishra. Violence quickly spread in the city. Hindus asked to see the identity cards of men they were arresting on the street. The Guardian reports that if a man refused, he was forced to show whether he was circumcised or not."

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:32, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What the local sources say

Shaan (28), a resident of Kabir Nagar, said the situation escalated after BJP leader Kapil Mishra tweeted that he would hit the streets. "It was then that the stone-pelting began from their side. The other side also responded and the situation flared up," he said.

At around 1.22 pm, Mishra tweeted for his supporters to reach the venue, telling them that if the police couldn’t stop the public road from being blocked, the people would. By 3 pm, a large group had gathered and begun shouting slogans against the anti-CAA protesters. According to a police assessment, Bhim Army supporters first pelted stones on the pro-CAA group at 4.42 pm, and they in turn chased them away with sticks and stones.

“I heard him talking to people. Yahi sahi mauka hai. Isse bhuna lo. Ab chook gaye to dubaara mauka nahi milega. (This is the right time. Exploit it. If you miss it, you won’t get another opportunity),” Ahmed says, quoting what he claims to be Mishra’s conversation. Mishra apparently left around 4:30 pm. According to Ahmed, “I saw them sending messages from their mobile phones. I left after about an hour or so and later came to know that riots have broken out.”

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:02, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do non local sources say?Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The non-local sources were accurately summarised by Abecedare. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:49, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then I would go with those, they are more neutral.Slatersteven (talk) 10:58, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ Kautilya3

No one is denying that Kapil Mishra tweeted and gathered Hindu men; stone pelting too occured from both the sides. But when Police intervened, the stone pelting was stopped and he gave an ultimatum that they are going back until Trump leaves. Please re-read the sentence being discussed here. Its clear misrepresentation of sources as no source says that Hindu men gathered in response to his ultimatum. -Yoonadue (talk) 10:15, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kautilya3 Why are you citing local sources? The principal author of the lead has already decreed that such sources may not be used in his lead. You're merely confusing the issue. This is unconstructive. NedFausa (talk) 17:15, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed correction of riots' duration in infobox

March 1 date

All the available sources say that the duration of riots was 3 days ie 23 Feb to 25 Feb 2020 but the infobox in our article says 23 Feb to 1 March (7 days). Even the cited reference states riots duration to be 3 days and what happened on 1st March was nothing but rumour. Therefore, I propose correction in riots' date and duration in the infobox. -Yoonadue (talk) 12:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yoonadue, please refer to the section 2020 Delhi riots § 27 February to 1 March specifically the part that mentions In the Welcome area, one shop was set on fire on 1 March. Do you have any better WP:RS for the same? SerChevalerie (talk) 14:37, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the reference from the date parameter of the Infobox because it fails to support riots continuing through 1 March 2020. I left the time interval template intact but added {citation needed}. The previously cited source situates the deadly riots between February 23 and 25; it reports a shop set afire on Saturday, February 29, but that by itself does not constitute a riot. We need a more definitive reference here. NedFausa (talk) 15:44, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NedFausa, thank you, I had completely missed this while adding the information. SerChevalerie (talk) 15:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To begin with, this paves the way for a discussion on the removal (or moving) of the subsubsection dedicated to "1 March". SerChevalerie (talk) 16:00, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As it stands, 1 March contains just two sentences, the first dealing with rumors and the second recounting closure of seven metro stations for an hour. This is trivial stuff. I support quick removal of that subsection on grounds of being not noteworthy. NedFausa (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I support this change. (If the information is deemed worthy in the future, it can always be pulled from the history). SerChevalerie (talk) 16:34, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I too support removal of 1 March sub-section. -Yoonadue (talk) 17:32, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Per consensus, I removed 1 March subsection. NedFausa (talk) 18:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FYI. If anyone has a reasoned objection to the substance of the edit (ie, not just a procedural objection), please let me know on my talkpage, and I'll revert it so that it can be discussed first. Barring that I'd like to keep the admin mitts minimally involved with the page. Happy editing. Abecedare (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Abecedare I object, and object strenuously. I have no idea how long the violence lasted, precisely. But the peremptory declaration of consensus by NedFausa—who otherwise has been proclaiming "As a practical matter, I no longer believe it's possible to change 2020 Delhi riots through a process of proposal and consensus"—a mere six hours after a post is made is not in keeping with any Wikipedia policy that I know. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:31, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And Yoonadue what is it you do not understand about summarizing sources? Just a couple of days ago, I gave you dozens of reliable sources in the sections above (see Talk:2020_Delhi_riots#Fowler&fowler's_List_of_foreign_newspapers_with_correspondents_in_India and Talk:2020_Delhi_riots#Fowler&fowler's_Foreign_newspapers_and_other_media_in_India_on_the_event(s)_leading_to_the_riot). I have offered to give you blurbs about a topic from those that require a subscription. These sources do not point to any consensus about the duration of the riots to be precisely three days. Summary style, or precis writing, is an art, not a science. You are attempting to do a double distillation, that of the lead, which is already a distillation, in one or two words in an infobox, and are citing it to one random source, which is not the most reliable. I am not saying you are wrong or right, but thus far in the discussions in this talk page, you have done nothing but open new threads that dispute nothing but little details. Admin Abecedare has already told everyone, as a matter of advice, to focus on the main body, but this advice is going unheeded. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:38, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to highlight a few points from the discussion User Talk:Fowler&fowler § 2020 Delhi riots edit objection, just to add some more perspective on the issue:

  • By F&f: "There are all sorts of dates and time frames given for the riots. We, for example, say that mobs of Hindu were going around Muslim neighborhoods attempting to scare Muslims out of house and home in the days leading up to Holi (celebrated March 9). We mention that in the lead. So, what do we mean by putting even the date of March 1 as the last date for the riots? I mean, do we mean, killing? Do we mean intimidation by mobs with threats of death? If the former, what date do we assign to the decomposed bodies found in the fetid canals for days afterward; if the latter, then even March 1 is too soon."
  • By admin Abecedare: "I agree with your position that it will be hard/impossible to nail down any single date as the definitive end-date for the riots... while the discussion on what the final arrangement should be takes place. That final choice could be between excluding dates altogether from the infobox; keeping it really vague "around end-Feb 2020"; slightly vague "Feb 23 to approx March 1"; reflecting the range of dates offered by sources, eg, "3-10 days starting Feb 23"; providing the most common end-date in the infobox and detailing the complexity in a footnote etc."

Personally I agree with the temporary solution "Feb 23 to approx March 1" offered by Abecedare. SerChevalerie (talk) 12:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the meanwhile, I second F&F's suggestion to add the Diplomat source in the infobox in place of the "cn" tag. SerChevalerie (talk) 12:05, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I did not see this. I meant (and I've corrected on my user talk page) using the citation: Singh, Jasminder (3 April 2020), "The 2020 Delhi Riots: Implications for Southeast Asia", Diplomat, retrieved 12 April 2020, Quote: Between February 23 and March 1, mobs of Hindus and Muslims clashed, resulting in dozens of casualties, while vehicles, shops, and houses were razed to the ground. In all, 53 people were killed, mostly Muslims., but adding {{Better source}} to call the attention of others, to make it known, that the source "is not unimpeachable," as admin Abecedare so felicitously put it on my user talk page. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:51, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good. SerChevalerie (talk) 17:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SerChevalerie: Please be so kind as to explain why you endorse including March 1 in the Infobox's time interval template. The suggested citation comes from The Diplomat, an international online news magazine based in Washington, D.C. Its author, a senior analyst at a think tank in Singapore, refers to "the February 2020 sectarian violence"—not the February–March 2020 sectarian violence. He does state that mobs clashed "between February 23 and March 1," but it's unclear to me at least whether that means clashes occurred from February 23 through March 1 or February 23 to March 1—i.e., February 23 through February 29.
This ambiguity implicates undue weight, which directs: Neutrality requires that each article…fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Is March 1 proportional to the prominence given to that date by a cross-section of reliable sources, or is it what our policy describes as a minority view? Bear in mind, we are proposing to situate this date not buried in body text but within the Infobox, which stands in a prominent place near the top of Wikipedia's 2020 Delhi riots page. The inclusion of {Better source} does not mitigate the undue weight we would accord to March 1 by citing a minority view. NedFausa (talk) 18:15, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NedFausa, I guess I should have clarified, I only support this proposal on a temporary basis. I still think we should include Abecedare's "Feb 23 to approx March 1" suggestion with F&f's source and a {Better source} tag until we can analyse the sources and clearly determine the exact date. SerChevalerie (talk) 19:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SerChevalerie: I oppose your proposal to support "Feb 23 to approx March 1" by citing a source that does not use any form of the word approximate. I object on grounds of WP:SYNTH, which directs: Do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. Ambiguity ≠ approximate. And again, the {Better source} tag fails to mitigate this issue. Since you readily acknowledge we need a better source, why not find one? NedFausa (talk) 20:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense, thanks for pointing that out. SerChevalerie (talk) 04:14, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler's foreign sources about the duration of the 2020 Delhi riots

Here are some newspaper and media sources from North America, and the UK. They are all over the place, from two to six; the median seems to be four. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:48, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Newspapers and other media in the US and Canada on the duration of the 2020 Delhi riots
  • As New Delhi Violence Rages for 3rd Day, Modi Urges Calm February 26, Jeffrey Gettleman, Suhasini Raj and Sameer Yasir Quote: "Streets that had been a battle zone were much quieter on Wednesday, with a few sporadic attacks reported but no large-scale mayhem. (Title of video: "
  • As New Delhi Counts the Dead, Questions Swirl About Police Response, February 27, by Jeffrey Gettleman and Suhasini Raj, Photographs by Atul Loke Quote: "The Musharraf family, who are Muslim, locked themselves in a dark room. The breadwinner, a 30-something rickshaw driver, threw himself under the bed and curled up in a wooden box. But the mob of more than 25 men found him. “Please, I’m also your brother,’’ he pleaded and folded his hands in front of his chest, a gesture for mercy, according to several survivors. “I also have young kids, like you.” They clubbed him in the face and dragged him out. Family members, in hiding around the neighborhood, frantically called the police. No one came. As India’s worst spasm of religious violence in years entered its sixth day, with the death toll climbing to at least 38, questions are intensifying about why the New Delhi police failed to quell the bloodletting."
  • In India, Modi’s Policies Have Lit a Fuse, March 1, By Jeffrey Gettleman and Maria Abi-Habib. Quote: "On the fourth day of the violence, after more than 20 people had been killed, Mr. Modi broke his silence and urged “my sisters and brothers of Delhi to maintain peace.”
  • How Delhi’s Police Turned Against Muslims, March 12, By Jeffrey Gettleman, Sameer Yasir, Suhasini Raj and Hari Kumar, Photographs by Atul Loke Quote: "But by Feb. 25 the direction had changed. Hindu mobs fanned out and targeted Muslim families. Violence crackled in the air. Police officers watched as mobs of Hindus, their foreheads marked by saffron stripes, prowled the streets with baseball bats and rusty bars, looking for Muslims to kill. The sky was filled with smoke. Muslim homes, shops and mosques were burned down."
  • The Washington Post. (Subscrip. Req.) Joana Slater (India bureau chief), Neha Masih, Tania Dutta
  • "What Delhi’s worst communal violence in decades means for Modi’s India," March 2, Slater and Masih. Quote: "Down a nearby alleyway, plastic chairs were set out to accommodate mourners at the home of two brothers killed in the riots. Aamir Khan, 30, and his brother Hashim, 19, were on their way to Mustafabad on Wednesday night but never arrived. The next day, their brother Sheruddin said, police showed the family photos of the motorcycle they had been riding, now burned, and of their bodies, both with stab wounds. Their mother sat on the floor in a cramped room, surrounded by women, her face contorted by grief. Aamir’s wife lay next to her, immobile under a brown blanket."
  • The Wall Street Journal (Subscrip. Req.)Bill Spindle (South Asia bureau chief); Vibhuti Agarwal (Commodities Reporter); Krishna Pokharel (Reporter)
  • "India Begins Probe of Clashes That Left 38 Dead," (Agarwal, Spindle, February 27) Quote: "Indian authorities tried to calm tensions in the nation’s capital and began investigating four days of rioting and clashes between Hindus and Muslims that left at least 38 dead and more than 300 injured in the worst violence the capital has seen in decades."
  • After Delhi’s burst of violence, a Muslim artist takes stock, March 5, 2020, Farhad Shah. Quote: "For four days, the riots continued, killing at least 52 people – mostly Muslim – and injuring more than 350. Hindu mobs attacked Muslims, and Muslims retaliated. Video that Rehan received from a neighbor shows a cloud of smoke coming out of a house, burnt by mobs, and a blast, perhaps from cooking gas. In another video, Rehan points out a damaged mosque, saying, “I offer prayers at this mosque every day.”
  • Associated Press (Subscrip. Not Req.)
  • Correspondents: Emily Schmall (South Asia correspondent) Sheikh Saaliq, Ashok Sharma
  • Carried by The Globe and Mail, Toronto, also does not have a correspondent in Delhi and uses AP and Reuters.
  • Death toll from New Delhi riots rises to 46 as India’s capital remains on edge, March 2, 2020, Sheikh Saaliq, Associated Press News. Quote: "Some of the victims accuse Kapil Mishra, a local leader of Mr. Modi’s party who lost his Delhi state assembly seat in recent elections, of stoking the violence. Mr. Mishra had demanded at a rally that police shut down a Muslim-led protest in the city or else he and his followers would do it themselves. Hours later, Hindus and Muslims fought each other with guns and swords, metal rods and axes, leaving the streets where the rioting occurred resembling a war zone. The violence had largely subsided by Wednesday, but the Indian capital has remained on edge. Most of the dead and injured were Muslims, with thousands fleeing their homes in fear."
  • Delhi Riots Aftermath: 'How Do You Explain Such Violence?', March 7, by Lauren Frayer. Quote: ""We'll hold back only until Trump departs," Kapil Mishra, a local BJP leader, told his supporters on Feb. 23. And that's what appears to have happened. On the night of Feb. 25, violence erupted on a much larger scale, as Trump departed. Mobs torched Muslim homes, chanting "Jai Shri Ram" — praise Lord Ram, one of the Hindu gods. They appear to have targeted Muslims indiscriminately, rather than targeting protesters."
  • CBS (Columbia Broadcasting System, United States), correspondent: Arshad Zagar
  • New Delhi riots leave 38 dead as India balks at U.S. reaction to the religious violence, February 27, by Arshad R. Zagar
  • Delhi riots forced thousands of Muslims from their homes, and they're afraid to go back, March 11, Arshad R. Zagar Quote: "It started on February 24, the eve of President Donald Trump's visit to India, when supporters of a controversial new citizenship law, seen by many as discriminatory against the country's minority Muslim population, clashed with people protesting against it ... "What's the point of going back and remaining in constant fear of getting attacked again?" asked Mohammed Dilshad as he lay on a bed in the Mustafabad camp with both his arms in casts. He was attacked by a mob on February 25 along with four friends on the outskirts of Shiv Vihar. "I may have been lucky this time, but that may not be the case next time," he said. He said his friend Naseem Ahmad's cousin wasn't so lucky. He was found dead inside his burned home on the third day of violence, Ahmad said. A team of doctors at the Mustafabad camp have seen early signs of depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) developing in the survivors."
Some newspapers and other media in the UK and Ireland with correspondents in India
  • The Times (Subscrip. Req.) Hugh Tomlinson, South Asia correspondent, based in Delhi; Saurabh Sharma, Delhi
  • "Hindu mobs threaten to purge Delhi of Muslims," February 27, Hugh Tomlinson. Quote: Three days of riots have turned mixed neighbourhoods into war zones, with armed Hindu gangs roaming the streets, looting and burning Muslim shops and homes. The violence is the culmination of protests that broke out in December against a citizenship law enacted by the Hindu nationalist government of Narendra Modi.
  • Guardian, Hannah Ellis-Peterson, Delhi correspondent.
  • "Delhi riots: Dust settles after worst religious violence in decades as locals demand accountability," February 27, by Adam Withnall. Quote: "Both the central administration of prime minister Narendra Modi and the city’s devolved government were being criticised on Thursday over how hundreds of hooligans chanting Hindu nationalist slogans were able to attack Muslim properties and religious sites for three days before the situation was brought under control."
  • Financial Times, (Subscrip. Req.) Amy Kazmin South Asia Bureau Chief, based in Delhi; Stephanie Findlay, South Asia correspondent.
  • "India riots: ‘We were attacked because we are Muslim’," February 28, by Stephanie Findlay and Amy Kazmin. Quote: "On Wednesday morning, Mr Modi’s government, which has control over policing and is responsible for security in the capital, deployed thousands of additional paramilitary police to the riot-stricken areas to try to restore order. That afternoon, Mr Modi took to Twitter to appeal for peace — his first public acknowledgment of the violence. But even amid the strong police presence, tensions remained high, with many families fleeing to seek refuge with relatives elsewhere... Analysts said the rioting may not be as severe as other urban violence that has rocked India. But the government's apparent tolerance of two days of unchecked bloodshed had sent a powerful signal to a Muslim community that already felt under siege, they said."

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:48, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All the facts are put in wrong way

This has been made Uneditable because the facts here are put in wrong way. CAA nowhere is Muslim opposite bill. Riots was not Hindu attacking Muslim. Nowhere AAP MLA Tahir Hussain mentioned. Add the lady who was arrested from JNU. All fake. Karuna0585 (talk) 03:50, 15 April 2020 (UTC) — Karuna0585 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

And none of your claims are backed up by reliable sources. Provide those, and your suggestions can be considered, but as you presented them, they're useless. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:19, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

The article is totally fake it doesnt recognise the person tahir Hussain [BLP violation redacted Doug Weller talk 11:55, 17 April 2020 (UTC)]. Neither there is any report that suggest that killed persons was from Hindu and Muslim community. This article is totally fake... Badshah3956 (talk) 04:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Badshah3956 Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state about article subjects. If you have suggestions for specific changes to the article that are supported with independent reliable sources, please offer them. Please also understand that this is a very controversial subject and collaboration amongst people of differing viewpoints is required. 331dot (talk) 10:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
331dot, the above section has a very similar comment by a different user. I think both accounts belong to the same person.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 10:10, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible, but it could be different people, as the controversial nature of this subject could be drawing people here. 331dot (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree we go wit what RS say.Slatersteven (talk) 10:11, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lets not start to discus users conduct here. And lets not make reports based on flimsy evidence.Slatersteven (talk) 10:31, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Enforcement of our WP:BLP policy on this page

You simply cannot accuse living or recently deceased people of crimes for which they have not been convicted, and this includes starting riots. You can discuss reliable sources (not Opindia or Swarajya please) that discuss them, but that's the limit. Doug Weller talk 12:04, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are these sources applicable here?

There is a comment by a guy named Doug Weller about reliable sources.

Rajdeep Sardesai - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajdeep_Sardesai

1- He stated on twitter that After spending a day on streets of NE Delhi,my takeaways 1) this is a Hindu Muslim riot in which BOTH communities have been involved in terrible acts of violence. Street Protests, provocation, attack, retaliation, a cycle of violence was unleashed.Tough to say who ‘started’ it.

link-https://twitter.com/sardesairajdeep/status/1232701219711463428

2- BBC - sixth paragraph- Access to these areas was severely restricted on Tuesday, when most of the violence took place. Judging by the names released so far, both Muslims and Hindus are among the dead and injured. link- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-51639856

3- ‘Trapped for 45 minutes’ “Around 3 p.m., Muslims started throwing stones and eventually Hindus retaliated. My other family members and I who were at the shop managed to go to one of our shops on the street and went to the terrace. We were trapped there for about 45 minutes. I took multiple videos and photographs,” he said while showing them. In the videos, rioters wearing masks and holding sticks were seen throwing stones.

“When I started taking videos, Shahnawaz hid himself,” alleged the 25-year-old.

The police also said that during investigation, eyewitnesses had found him as the ‘main aggressor’.

link- https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/videos-dont-show-it-but-we-saw-him-hurling-stones/article31012364.ece

4- Damage worth crores, AAP MLA’s ‘apathy’ In Shiv Vihar, several shops and homes owned by Hindus were torched on 24 February. Residents alleged that the incineration continued until Thursday morning.


Anil Sharma owned three shops that were set afire — Anil Sweet Corner, Anil Pastry, and a workhouse for both of them. Sharad Kumar, who was employed at the workhouse, told ThePrint: “A mob from the nearby Aqsa Masjid surrounded us from the afternoon of 24 February, and then burned everything down in the next 4-5 hours with petrol bombs and acid bottles. They caused damage of more than a crore to the shops, as each shop had materials worth Rs 40-50 lakh each.”

Sharad continued: “A Muslim mob from adjoining Mustafabad area kept coming back to throw stones and petrol until this morning (Thursday), after which we recovered mutilated bodies of workers which were trapped in a nearby building and workshops.”

link- https://theprint.in/india/anger-towards-other-side-echoes-in-hindu-dominated-areas-of-riot-hit-northeast-delhi/372502/

5- Locals said a large Muslim mob from Mustafabad, which is across a small bridge over a narrow drain from Brijpuri, started pouring in and throwing stones.

"It was chaotic and loud, and we rushed out from our homes to see what was happening," said Sharma, who was with Rahul at the time.

"We hadn't even clearly understood what was happening when a bullet fired from the mob on the other side hit him. He cried out 'oh brother' and collapsed. We rushed him to a hospital but he couldn't be saved," Sharma added.

link- https://www.france24.com/en/20200228-in-delhi-two-tales-of-one-deadly-riot

6- With death staring at them after armed rioters had marched through Shiv Vihar and started setting homes and shops ablaze on February 24, the three women — and hundreds of Muslim and Hindu families — had fled their homes and reached the adjoining neighbourhoods of Mustafabad, Chandu Nagar, Chaman Park, all predominantly Muslim pockets.

Similarly, a large number of Hindu families whose homes have been torched have taken shelter in temples and in the houses of their relatives.

link- https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/delhi-riots-muslim-or-hindu-victims-government-absent-for-all/cid/1750491

Its hard to judge without really knowing what you want to use them for. But (for example) the BBC source is very dated and can hardly reflect what we now know.Slatersteven (talk) 14:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

are you saying Hindu deceased might come back to life, and I want that the lead which mentions that only Hindu mob attacked Muslims using the word chiefly to be made neutral as few sources mention that Muslim mob from Mustafabad attacked Hindus. France24 link also mentions about Muslim mob.

We do not say only Hindu mobs. And so I am not saying people can come back to life, I am saying that a source that is out of date cant be used to reflect current knowledge. If I find a source form 1939 saying that X number of RAF pilots have been killed that can only be used for 1939.Slatersteven (talk) 14:55, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are you or other Wikipedia account holders include in this article that Muslim mob from Mustafabad attacked Hindus? Sources given above.

Another source mentions mob from Aqsa masjid without mentioning religion of mob.

Does it matter where they attacked from?Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Zubisko, please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. Regarding your question about WP:RS, please refer to the section on this page § Fowler&fowler's: Developing the article main body, and eventually rewriting the lead (in POV-embattled India-related articles). As for your suggestion, I would firstly like to clarify that the article does not mention that Hindus were not attacked; rather the lead, too, clearly states that while more Muslims were killed, Hindus were also among those murdered. As for the specific text you highlighted, can you please suggest where it could be added in the main body of the article? SerChevalerie (talk) 16:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It should be added in first paragraph that Muslim mob from Mustafabad attacked Hindus as mentioned in sources.

And the page should also mention that Hindu victims took shelter in temples from telegraph source given above, as the main picture is about Muslims taking shelter in temples in tents.

Where it should be mentioned should be decided by those who are editing the article, but these facts should be included.

Of the 53 people killed, two-thirds were Muslims who were shot, slashed with repeated blows or set on fire. This line about how Muslims were killed suggest as if Hindus were killed in less brutal manner or in soothing way.

Which is not, as "The Crime Branch has arrested an accused in connection with the murder case of a man in Gokulpuri, whose body was found in mutilated condition in Anil Sweet House, Brijpuri on February 26 following violence in the national capital, police said. The accused and deceased have been identified as Mohammad Shahnawaz (27), a resident of Shiv Vihar and Dilbar Negi (22), respectively. Negi’s body was burnt by a mob of rioters after cutting off his hands and feet. Six months back, he had come to Delhi from his native Uttarakhand to get employed."

link- https://theprint.in/india/crime-branch-arrests-shiv-vihar-resident-for-murder-of-uttarakhand-man-in-delhi-riots/377284/ Zubisko (talk) 16:55, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"And the page should also mention that Hindu victims took shelter in temples from telegraph source given above..."  Done in "Aftermath" section SerChevalerie (talk) 17:16, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why do we need to know where they came from, do we say where the Hindu attack came from?Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Zubisko, you allege that "This line about how Muslims were killed suggest as if Hindus were killed in less brutal manner or in soothing way." However, please read the entire first paragraph, which says, Of the 53 people killed, two-thirds were Muslims who were shot, slashed with repeated blows or set on fire. The dead also included a policeman, an intelligence officer and over a dozen Hindus, who were shot or assaulted. As for your statement that "Where it should be mentioned should be decided by those who are editing the article..." please read and follow WP:Edit requests guidelines. Your suggested changes must be in a "Change X to Y" format (along with reliable sources). SerChevalerie (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2020

This article is completely out of facts and can't be trusted. News citations are missing and most of the language written seems personal statements. 122.172.74.123 (talk) 19:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • This isn't an edit request. You need to explain exactly what changes you would like made to the article. Black Kite (talk) 19:34, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2020

"groups of violent Hindu men attacked Muslim houses and businesses for three days, often firebombing them with cooking gas cylinders and gutting them without any resistance from the police." The whole narrative is written as if the Muslims were victims. However the video proofs were released for Tahir Hussain keeping a lot of petrol bombs in his home and even participated in violence. Please check below video, from 2:50 and the evidence is clear that the riot was pre-planned by few master minds from Muslim religion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJBV6psKEZo&list=LL80BYtvuBBRdMtvqyJxEq0w&index=3&t=0s If the riot is not preplanned by Muslims why they had acids and petrol bombs in large numbers ready ??


"23 February and incitement" to "17 February and incitment" Proofs were released for Mr.Umar Khalid provoking the mobilisation of muslims even before the 23 February incident written in the article. On 17th Feb the incitment happened. Check 2:03 in below video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJBV6psKEZo&list=LL80BYtvuBBRdMtvqyJxEq0w&index=3&t=0s

By the end the whole article is written with conspiracy theory alone in mind. Single sided to show Muslim as victims while the video proofs were available that this wasn't the case. Please read the case history once. Rajag89 (talk) 03:16, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please read wp:rs.Slatersteven (talk) 09:38, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:11, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This page violates wikipedia community standards. Extremely biased towards one community

Muslim violence against hindus is virtually nonexistent although 15 hindus died because of muslim violence. Muslim mobs were seen firing gun shots. The article has a lot of assumptions favouring the muslim community. As an example, in one place, the violence by muslim mobs is justified as a necessary step. Is this a personal blog? Chanting of jai shri ram by violent hindu mob is mentioned, but the chanting of allah hu akbar by violent muslim mob is nowhere to be seen. Quanta127 (talk) 16:41, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F952698894

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