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Template:Findnote

I have added content to this page from a new article I created Indigenous Peoples' March. The content will be re-edited, summarized and/or rewritten.Oceanflynn (talk) 22:56, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nathan Phillips also starred prominently in the Skrillex video Skrillex & Damian "Jr. Gong" Marley - Make It Bun Dem which as today has over 380M views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGpzGu9Yp6Y --85.16.193.80 (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He has not been verified as a veteran of Vietnam, either state that he is reported to be a veteran, or remove the statement that he is actually a veteran. 104.139.98.75 (talk) 12:51, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done NYT, BBC, and multiple reliable sources are calling him a veteran of the Vietnam War. Click on the first two footnotes and see for yourself. Also see WP:Verify, a Wikipedia policy. First Light (talk) 14:26, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also would like to see verification of Phillips's claim to be a Vietnam veteran. Newspapers calling him a Vietnam veteran - even BBC, NWT, WaPo - is not sufficient verification of his service. Those publications might just be quoting him thus the articles are only evidence that he is claiming to be a Vietnam veteran. Until there is verification, the claim should be given the "Reference needed" citation, or the text should be changed to "claimed to be a Vietnam veteran". Llewkcalbyram (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The articles say he is 64. He stated he joined when he was 17 and that he was in Vietnam 1972-1976 as a Marine. The last Marines left Vietnam in 1971. There were some in the embassy after that but it was first in-first out. It would have been impossible for him to enter the Marines in 1972 and serve time in Vietnam and it would have been even more impossible for him to be in the Marines in Vietnam from 1972 to 1976. For him to have served in Vietnam, he would have needed to enter at age 15 or under. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.71.123.106 (talk) 07:56, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The article currently cites five separate sources supporting this information. Please cite published sources that call this into question or contradict it. Otherwise, I think Wikipedia's policy regarding verifiability has been well and truly satisfied. Besides, an edit request is not the proper venue to make this request unless there is a clear consensus to make the change. Please discuss and reach a consensus on the talk page prior to reopening this request. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 22:12, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Add as many circular resources as you like, if they did not come from the DOD - they are not sources, and thus not verified. There is ONLY one source for this information. There is a legitimate cause for questioning the claim, as detailed by previous editor. His age does not align with his claimed service.

Procedural closure of edit request - an edit request cannot be completed unless it is clearly uncontroversial or already supported by clear consensus on the talk page. See WP:EDITREQ#General considerations. Please continue discussion here on the talk page, and seek dispute resolution if you feel it is necessary. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 00:57, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Wictor points out that Nathan Phillips' story about his Vietnam war contradicts the official US military involvement when he would have enlisted. There is no proof, other than what Nathan Phillips himself said, that he was even in the military.

https://quodverum.com/2019/01/22/nathan-phillips-fake-marine.html

Please add the following text to the Indigenous Peoples' March section, directly after the end of Nathan philipps' quoete: Nartuladamaria (talk) 16:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nathan Phillips’ statement, “We’re not supposed to have walls here [in America]; we never did—for millennium” may be a reference to the ancient indiginous migration routes that spanned from northeastern Siberia to the southern tip of Chile in South America, roughly 9,000 miles. Scientific evidence has revealed that costal and interior land migration routes allowed Indigenous Peoples to migrate and settle across the Americas nearly 10,000 years ago when glaciers covering the Bering Strait began to shrink and recede. [1]

 Not done: You're drawing conclusions without supporting citations. Yes, Nathan Phillips made this statement, and yes, people migrated across the Americas. You'll need to cite a published source linking the two in order to put this in the article. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 18:16, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This entire page is COMPLETELY FALSE. Nathan Phillips is the student who is so rudely smirking at the Native American War Vet this page is referencing. Change it IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2620:102:400B:8D01:C48E:6139:99E0:C017 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, Phillips is the tribal elder. Bkatcher (talk) 17:49, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done incorrect information. Britishfinance (talk) 17:54, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The account of what took place on 18 Jan 2019 is likely not true given other videos that have come to light about this incident. 47.232.88.36 (talk) 18:59, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. You need to request a specific change. That request must be of the form "please change X to Y" and should include the source(s) used to back up the change. --McSly (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another link should be added as a footnote #20 to this information on the Nathan Phillips incident at the Indigenous Peoples' March 2019 by a registered user. An additional paragraph should be added to this article on the 2019 Indigenous Peoples’ March, because several videos obtained from this incident have now been publicized on January 20, 2019. (see link below) Nathan Phillips and his group approached the school kids who were chanting cheers for their school. They did not “surround him” and threaten him as stated. All videos on this link show students stood there and smiled at them and danced to their drums while Phillips got right in one boy’s face. Please have a registered user add this information so the article is current. It can be footnote 20. 97.88.56.40 (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done It is not about what you - or other people on the internet - think what happened. WP is only for high-quality secondary independent sources (Per WP:RS) such as NYT, Guardian, Washington Post etc. Many major news networks around the world have now covered this story and all express the view quoted by the high-quality references in this article. If these sources change their view, the article will change. As of 20 January 2018, they have not. Britishfinance (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As early as 1/20/2018 (Same day), and 01/21/2018 they have - based on information available at that time. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/20/us/nathan-phillips-covington.html https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/21/new-video-confrontation-kentucky-students-native-american https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/picture-of-the-conflict-on-the-mall-comes-into-clearer-focus/2019/01/20/c078f092-1ceb-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html?utm_term=.a8dc41b7a268

Today the New York Times published an article that gives a pretty good balanced overview of the Lincoln Memorial incident this weekend in which the views of both sides are represented. I am hoping that the people who have invested time in writing this wikipedia article will consider emulating it by perhaps toning down the emotional description of Mr. Phillips's role in the incident (note the NYT doesn't even mention the dog whistle of Mr. Phillips being a Vietnam vet) and adding in descriptions of the behavior by the Hebrew Israelites and the viewpoints of the boys from Covington involved in the episode. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/20/us/nathan-phillips-covington.html Llewkcalbyram (talk) 01:36, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Was he a "Vietnam-era vet", or did he actually serve in Vietnam? What were his dates of service, where did he serve, what was his MOS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.248.247.218 (talk) 03:11, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that more information should be provided or that the sentence should simply be removed. As it stands, it seems designed to obfuscate rather than inform.

If he's actually 64(?) in 2019, as has been alleged elsewhere, Vietnam War dates might make him too young to have served (legally).

I can find no record of a military position "recon ranger". Are we spreading blatant falsehood? Please delete the military position until we can cite something besides his word. 50.35.67.82 (talk) 22:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References to news articles and media publications are not an indication or proof of military service. Coastiejon99 (talk) 04:08, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nathan Phillips Lied. The Media Bought It. Please Tell the Truth That isn’t what happened. Phillips was the aggressor in the situation. It’s a curious feature of our culture that people aggressively seek to be victimized, go out of their way in hopes of getting punched in the face, but here we are. https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/nathan-phillips-lied-the-media-bought-it/ 24.119.208.238 (talk) 04:10, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 05:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Following sentence should have <allegedly> inserted as noted.
He received national attention in America after participating in the Indigenous Peoples' March in Washington, D.C. in January 2019, when he was <allegedly> harassed by a group of high school students. 2601:1C0:4300:9470:E991:D643:EF86:A9E6 (talk) 05:50, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done. My primary opinion is that the whole Article should be deleted, unless and until someone can make a convincing case that Phillips is somehow noteworthy. The only question is: How long will it take before the Article is eventually deleted? I added the word "allegedly" 1) because that's just what you do in an encyclopedia where allegations and facts are uncertain, 2) evidence suggests that the allegation is false, 3) the Article is doomed, and that it's just a matter of time before it's deleted and 4) anything that underlines the non-noteworthy nature of the whole event will serve to accelerate this Article's eventual demise, and 5) someone else requested it.

Tym Whittier (talk) 22:15, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"On January 18, 2019 videos recorded at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC, USA showed Nathan Phillips being harassed by a group of fifty to sixty high school boys who had attended the coinciding annual March for Life;"

There is no video that conclusively shows Nathan Phillips being harassed. In fact, the extensive videos that have now been made public have destroyed Phillip's major claims regarding the incident.

- Phillips is quoted by CBS News as saying that the student shifted back and forth in order to block his path. The video shows the truth. The student is standing still and Phillips walks up to him and plays a drum inches from the student's face in a provocative and taunting manner. The confused kid simply stands still and occasionally smiles.

- “There was that moment when I realized I’ve put myself between beast and prey,” Phillips told the Detroit Free-Press. “These young men were beastly and these old black individuals was their prey, and I stood in between them and so they needed their pounds of flesh and they were looking at me for that.”

Another shameless, vicious lie that is proven false by the actual video. The "old black individuals" were members of a hate group (Black Israelites), were not old, and had been hurling racist and homophobic abuse at the children. There was no aggressive action taken by the children.

- Phillips claimed that the students had chanted "Build the Wall". The video disproves this. Phillip's close friend and fellow "activist" can be heard screaming "white people, go back to Europe" but there is no chanting about a wall.

- The Washington Post states "In an interview Saturday, Phillips, 64, said he felt threatened by the teens and that they swarmed around him as he and other activists were wrapping up the march and preparing to leave." Extensive video footage shows that Phillips walked up to the crowd of boys, who were waiting for a school bus.

In short, it is clear that Phillips can be described, at best, as an "unreliable narrator". What the video shows is perhaps in the eye of the beholder, but there is certainly no video that conclusively shows Phillips being harassed by anyone, let alone 50 to 60 boys.

This sentence should be removed. In addition, a fair accounting of the incident should mention the racist and homophobic slurs hurled at the children by the Black Israelites and by Phillip's close friend and fellow "activist". It should also mention that Phillips' major claims about the incident (listed above) are now known to be false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8A:500:415:54B1:E96D:6DB5:8B7 (talk) 14:25, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just sent a request for oversight of this article from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Oversight

It seems that there is consensus here that the article needs revision to present a more complete and balanced view of the incident involving Nathan Phillips as well as verification of claimed military service in Vietnam. People suggesting changes have followed protocol and discussed suggestions on the talk page rather than editing the article without discussion and perhaps starting an edit war, but the main author seems wither to have abandoned the article or to be unwilling to edit it to reflect the concerns of others.

Llewkcalbyram (talk) 15:06, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree!! Coastiejon99 (talk) 05:19, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some sources from November 2000:

• https://www.omaha.com/news/nation/who-is-nathan-phillips-years-ago-omaha-tribe-member-said/article_6cc049c4-d6d8-5e3c-8ee6-939a203682af.html
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2000/11/21/a-mourning-wake-up-call/c9fd1ab8-dfdc-42fd-a5b7-c9e8d3b3512e/

Both include details of his origins. --Dual Freq (talk) 18:23, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources questionable. Needs to prove the man was a Marine Recon Ranger when there is no such thing. I cannot attach proof, as there simply is and never was any such job or MS. His age at the end of the Vietnam War would have been 17. Entire military career needs to be proved and is just based on Philip's story. Scoundrel13 (talk) 18:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:31, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone think this anonymous nobody is noteworthy? I don't. However, if someone wants to assert that he is, they should also be aware that the details of the recent "media splash" have been clarified and it does not look good for Mr. Phillips, and that this Article might just as easily be reframed as an example of how the gullible Media is willing to publish allegations and lurid assertions as if they are facts, without checking them first. Second, I would also argue that Mr. Phillips "notoriety" could equally be attributed to his memeworthiness. I have one in particular that I like, depicting an image of Mr. Phillips, with the caption "Chief Crying Wolf".

I just think that it would be better for everyone all-around if this Article were "speedily deleted", since the only place it can legitimately go is towards mocking Mr. Phillips.

Tym Whittier (talk) 21:10, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"On January 18, 2019 videos recorded at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC, USA appeared to show Phillips being harassed by a group of fifty to sixty high school boys who had attended the coinciding annual March for Life; it was widely shared through social media, including Twitter and YouTube with one video reaching two million viewers in two hours."

Keyword here being "appeared". Since the "twitterstorm", several other videos have come out showing that Phillips had the choice of remaining where he was, a safe and respectful distance from the teenagers, but instead Mr. Phillips chose to engage with the teenagers by closing the distance between them (about 30 feet) to within 1 foot, while banging his drum in one teenager's face. Meaning, in terms of "who harassed who", Phillips clearly initiated the conflict. Many reliable sources are now "walking back" their original narrative of events, while other sources are ignoring the whole story, and pretending that it didn't happen.

Either way, any source used by this Article that does not reflect this new and updated version of the Narrative are by definition NOT "reliable", since they got the story wrong. Which means, in order to keep the Article, new sources need to be found to correct the incorrect and unreliable sources used in the Article's current version, reflecting a new version of events that will only serve to cast Mr. Phillips in a negative light, as well as the unreliable and inaccurate media that fabricated this story, and from there, this Article. All of this is an argument to speedily delete this not-noteworthy Article, IMO.

Tym Whittier (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.greensboro.com/warning-offensive-language-full-video-of-covington-catholic-students-black/youtube_8383524a-d9b5-5c5b-a751-5e864a3ac645.html Redcanyonkim (talk) 22:01, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 22:12, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no actual source material that confirms any of the claims of Mr. Nathan Philips. He makes extra-ordinary claims but he can't back them up with FACTS. For example: "Vietnam veteran". He does NOT provide evidence, dog tags, military reference numbers etc. Same goes for the claim as "native american". He needs to provide source materials, not just news paper clippings ( that is not evidence, or facts. People can claim anything but in order to make them true they need to provide the correct documentation). This is: no reference to military numbers and codes+ documentation, no reference to native american registers. This page was created on the 19th because it is FULL of biased references of known biased newspapers who came out that "they were wrong". Suggested approach: the academic approach: SOURCE MATERIALS ONLY. Secondary references are ok to add extra info but NOT about "claims of being Native American or Military personnel" that is fraud and diminishes the accomplishments and suffering that Native Americans and Military personnel went through.

Suggested edits: completely remove all references about "veteran, military service, vietnam, etc" and all "Native American" claims until they can be checked with registers and provided with correct photographic material that needs to be uploaded. Here are what needs to be changed and the "references" need all to be removed for being biased and unproven. Delete those sections or give the uploader 10 days the chance to load up the required info.: 'Bold text'Background and activism He was brought up in a traditional tribal home in Nebraska[1] of the Nebraska Omaha Tribe.[2] The New York Times identified Phillips as a former Director of the Native Youth Alliance, a group that works to ensure that traditional culture and spiritual ways are upheld for future generations of Native Americans,[3] and that he leads an annual ceremony honoring Native American war veterans in Arlington National Cemetery.[3] The Guardian called him "a well-known Native American activist who was among those leading the Standing Rock protests in 2016 and 2017 against the construction of an oil pipeline in North Dakota".[4]

Phillips was in the news in Michigan in 2015 when a group of students from Eastern Michigan University allegedly harassed him.[5]

In a January 2019 article in Indian Country Today', Phillips was described as a "keeper of a sacred pipe".[6][Notes 1][5] Another January 2019 article in the Washington Post described Phillips as a "a veteran in the indigenous rights movement".[7]

Vietnam Veteran Phillips served in the U.S. military during the Vietnam War in the Marine Corps as a Recon Ranger and Infantryman.[3][8][9][10][11] AcademicUniversalis (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So I looked into it and there is no way he was deployed in Vietnam, so the claim he was a veteran of the war is simply a falsely. He was 17 in 1972, the age at which he claimed he joined the Marines and at that time the Marines had pulled out of Vietnam. I would recommend a removal of that portion of the page as well until he either provides more proof or until a source points out that he lied about it and create another section regarding his stolen valor. https://granitegrok.com/blog/2019/01/is-nathan-phillips-too-young-to-be-a-vietnam-vet here is a blog that summarizes the information and provides sources. 23:55, 21 January 2019 (UTC)~~

I can't find anything in the Vouge article that mentioned he joined the Marines at 17 years old.

Where specifically in the article (not in the comments section) does it reference that?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by BneiBrakPhone (talk • contribs) 23:36, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Born to an Omaha Nation family in Nebraska, Phillips was separated from his mother around age 5 and raised by a white family until he was 17, when he joined the Marines and served as an infantryman in the Vietnam War".[2] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:41, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the mention of the age, because it seemed unlikely, given that this source[3] says he worked jobs between the age of 17 and joining the Marines. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Again, a news article or media input is not an official and accurate account of an individual’s military service. You need to provide that information or delete this inaccurate passage. Coastiejon99 (talk) 05:23, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He served in the US Marines from 1972-1976. This was during the period the US was at war, but there were no Marines in combat after 1972. He has never said he served in Vietnam, he served during Vietnam War period. 2600:8805:3B00:24:A80E:C53F:C555:4DFF (talk) 00:23, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Umm. There’s no such thing. And I find it troubling that a supposedly factual information website lists such a statement as fact, and that the only reference for the (mis)information is the testimony of Phillips himself. In addition, I’ve seen several reports that he was born in 1956, which would have made him 17 (at the oldest) on March 29, 1973 - the date that the last of the U.S. Military forces were withdrawn from Vietnam. Being that Elder Phillips supposedly served from 1972 - 1976, that would mean that he graduated Marine Recon Ranger school (if there was such a thing) AND gotten deployed to Vietnam as just a 16-year-old boy. Rather impressive. Or a fraud. You choose. JBlaski13 (talk) 01:05, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]