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<small>Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress]], [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation)]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)]].&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User:Roman Spinner|Roman Spinner]] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 02:32, 12 September 2018 (UTC)</small>
<small>Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress]], [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation)]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)]].&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User:Roman Spinner|Roman Spinner]] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 02:32, 12 September 2018 (UTC)</small>
*'''Oppose''': Style should be (politician) and (American politician), none of this (American Senator), (US Senator) and so on. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 04:25, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:25, 12 September 2018


Article name

There are two Dan Sullivans in Alaska running for office at the same time. They're both called Daniel Sullivan, but both go by Dan Sullivan - see here, where it also states that "Middle initials would allow for some clarity (the mayor’s is A, and the former attorney general’s is S), but both candidates declined that option", so calling the articles "Daniel S. Sullivan" and "Daniel A. Sullivan" won't work (nevermind WP:COMMONNAME). We can't even keep "Dan Sullivan (mayor)" at that disambig because he's running for (and likely to be elected) Lieutenant Governor and we can't keep changing article names based on what office the subject is elected to. Thus, I'm going to move this article to "Dan Sullivan (politician, born 1964)" and Dan Sullivan (mayor) to "Dan Sullivan (politician, born 1951)". When talking about them on the same page (for example, here), middle initials should be used to easily distinguish in polling tables etc. Tiller54 (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nome Nugget

This sentence has been inserted: "Sullivan befriended libertarian bioethicist Jacob Appel during a 1998 visit to Nome and later served as a model for the character Peter Smythe in Appel's novel, The Biology of Luck". The citation is to <ref> "Friendship Forged on Uncommon Beliefs," Nome Nugget, September 25, 2014</ref> No hotlink is included in the reference. I looked up the Nome Nugget and this is what I found for their September 25, 2014 edition. Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any article in it called "Friendship Forged on Uncommon Beliefs". I also looked in the September 18 edition of the Nome Nugget and did not find such an article. I googled Jacob Appel and Dan Sullivan and the first reference (of six) that came back was this Wikipedia article; the others are irrelevant. So for now I am taking out this sentence from the article, and putting a note on the talk page of the user who inserted it. Champaign Supernova (talk) 08:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another proposal for move

You know, I am not usually that much into editing US politics articles. However, this one has been getting into my eye since I first saw it. And do you know why? Because the title is too damn long. Seriously, now, from the results of the meagre research I just conducted, it has been a constant practice to name US senators who need disambiguation like this: John Smith (senator). See Nathan Smith (senator), James Harlan (senator), George Gray (senator) and Henry Latimer (senator).

The current one may had been the ideal title for this article before the subject was elected a US senator. And still, it was, admittedly, not the best, but any other alternative would not work, as there are two Dan Sullivans in Alaska and both held quite high offices. Now that he is a US senator, it is the ideal opportunity to shorten the title a bit. So, in a nutshell, I propose Dan Sullivan (senator) or Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator).

Thanks and looking forward to hearing from you.--The Theosophist (talk) 10:01, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


P.S.

Richard Stockton (U.S. Senator), Henry Cooper (U.S. Senator), James Allen (U.S. Senator), John Black (U.S. Senator) and George Jones (U.S. Senator).--The Theosophist (talk) 10:04, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The common theme that unites all those men? They're long dead. Once upon a time, the practice was that Senators or Congressmen needing a qualifier in their article name had (senator) added or, if there were more than one from different states just (Georgia) or (New York), for example. We don't do that any more. Look at current Senators who need disambiguating: there's Chris Murphy (politician), John Walsh (U.S. politician), Jack Reed (politician), Tim Johnson (South Dakota politician), Mike Lee (U.S. politician) and Ron Johnson (U.S. politician). Yes, Sullivan's about to be a U.S. Senator. But he a) he's not yet, b) he's held other office and c) we don't know how long he'll be in office for or what he'll do next. As I said above, we can't go changing an article's name every time someone runs for office. If he's elected Governor or appointed to the Cabinet, we couldn't keep it at (U.S. Senator). With someone like Nathan Smith (senator), Richard Stockton (U.S. Senator), Henry Cooper (U.S. Senator), John Black (U.S. Senator) or George Jones (U.S. Senator), they all served a couple of years in the Senate and that's it. Their articles have basically nothing else to say about them. Some of them really shouldn't just be at "senator" though. George Gray (senator), for example. He also served as a federal judge for 14 years so the article should probably be at something else. Other George Grays are at, for example, George Gray (Australian politician) and George Gray (Tasmanian politician). Tiller54 (talk) 12:50, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Very well said, my dear. I understand everything. Still, is not the current qualifier rather long?--The Theosophist (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree, given the circumstances here. The six-year Senate term for Sullivan is an eternity in wiki-time, and it's extremely unlikely he would leave in that time for another office. While you make good points, I think the benefits of an easier, shorter title outweigh them in this case. -LtNOWIS (talk) 22:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You are right.--The Theosophist (talk) 13:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Existing sourcing for military career edit

The deleted line was properly founded in the existing sourcing, the Demer "candidate" article, the 5th reference in the Sullivan article.

http://www.adn.com/article/20140419/candidate-profile-dan-sullivan-marine-and-ex-resources-chief-aims-us-senate-seat

[1] Sullivan is a recipient of the Defense Meritorious Service Medal.[2]

In February 2005, he came to the attention of Gen. John Abizaid, then commander of the U.S. Central Command, the strategic military authority over the long and difficult wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Abizaid eventually wrote a letter recommending Sullivan for promotion to lieutenant colonel...

Though he was a junior officer, Sullivan didn't "sugarcoat difficult truths," the general said in the 2011 promotion letter...

Abizaid later met Sullivan's father back in the U.S. Abizaid now sits on the RPM International board of directors. He was voted onto the board in 2008 after the elder Sullivan initiated it. Abizaid's annual compensation from RPM approaches $164,000, according to recent corporate filings.

Actually, retired General Abizaid's 2011 recommendation overturned the recommendation against promotion by the Marine Corps' two appointed endorsers. The compensation figure doesn't reflect what he has received in RPM stock awards or options, which amount to holdings of over $1 million in the corporation. RPM is a major military contractor. Activist (talk) 12:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The linked RPM International Corporation Wikipedia article shows that the corporation was founded by Dan's grandfather and later run by Dan's father and now by his brother. Mention of Dan's family business was curiously absent from his Wikipedia article. Activist (talk) 12:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ DNR Commissioner Dan Sullivan Deployed to Afghanistan. Anchorage Daily News, July 22, 2013; retrieved July 31, 2013.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference DispatchDemer04192014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Requested move 19 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Both old titles will be redirected to the dab, Daniel Sullivan. Jenks24 (talk) 06:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


– Despite some talk page discussion, I was surprised to see this never got sorted out at RM. Both (U.S. politician) and (Alaska politician) describe both of these men. The disambiguation needs to be better. Despite some concerns voiced about both of these choices, I think they're the best, most recognizable disambiguators we can use. ((mayor) alone is insufficient for the one due to Dan Sullivan (New Zealand politician).) The best other option I can see would be Dan Sullivan (politician, born 1964) and Dan Sullivan (politician, born 1951). --BDD (talk) 23:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support as proposed, the alternative would be less natural and unnecessary ambiguity. Tiggerjay (talk) 17:15, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. Better alternative than the birth years. Egsan Bacon (talk) 19:38, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Senator" and "Mayor", capitalized, run afoul of MOS:JOBTITLES and prevailing naming convention. However, that's been widely ignored by editors who are obviously awed by officialdom and expect everyone else to be, too. More to say, I have to run along at present. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 21:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In some cases, perhaps, but not here. See the third bullet point there ("it is correct to write Louis XVI was King of France but Louis XVI was the French king"). I think the senator could go either way. His title would be "United States Senator", but he could also be called a "senator" with "U.S." as an adjective. Other articles that use "U.S. Senator" as a disambiguator use that capitalization as well, though. For the mayor, he could be something like (Alaska mayor), but again, "Mayor of Anchorage" was his actual title. --BDD (talk) 21:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom, with any variants of typography that may be agreed.
    Yes, this breaches MOS:JOBTITLES, but it's a much clearer form of disambiguation that date of birth. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Corrected tenures

John Burns, replacement for A.G. Dan Sullivan, was appointed by Governor Sean Parnell on November 31, 2010, per Legal NewsLine, published the following day. Sullivan was sworn into office as the Commissioner of Natural Resources on December 6, 2016. Burns came to work sometime in the week prior to Monday, 27 December, per the Fairbanks Daily News Miner. Activist (talk) 15:52, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

White House threatens to retaliate against Alaska if their senator votes against Trumpcare

Sullivan told the Dispatch News that Zinke’s Wednesday call sent a “troubling message.”

Needs reference in article. From; https://thinkprogress.org/white-house-threatens-to-retaliate-against-alaska-if-their-senator-votes-against-trumpcare-fe0ffcf5452c Wikipietime (talk) 13:29, 28 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested page move

The page name is quite incorrect. Based on general standards, the article name should likely be Dan Sullivan (U.S. Senator) or Dan Sullivan (Alaska politician, born 1964). Both redirect to this, so I'm requesting that the page be moved to one of those. Redditaddict69 00:35, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 September 2018

Dan Sullivan (American senator) → Dan Sullivan (U.S. Senator) – "senator" should not have a lowercase 's'. American Senator is never used to refer to a Senator, rather U.S./United States Senator is (in the infobox of almost all Senator articles). Whoever had the page moved to this must not be familiar with general standards for Wikipedia articles. Redditaddict69 00:40, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And whoever wrote this nomination is not very familiar with RM discussions and title issues, as the capitalization is changed without comment or rationale. Dicklyon (talk) 03:44, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above examples were intended to indicate that while the forms "U.S. Senator", "US Senator", "US senator" or "U.S. senator" may be found as part of various Wikipedia political qualifiers, the unused qualifier "American senator" has been appended solely to this article's main header. It so happened that nine of the ten examples used "U.S. Senator". The tenth example was moved from Frederick Hale (US senator) to Frederick Hale (U.S. senator) one hour after I posted my !vote.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:39, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for not noticing that the difference was because of a move that had just occurred. (That move was certainly an improvement, per MOS:U.S.) —BarrelProof (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose uppercase "Senator" but support Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator). I don't see any reason for this to be in uppercase (and there are a lot of articles using the lowercase version to support this). --Gonnym (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This link shows that almost all results are uppercase S. "Senator" with uppercase is a proper official taught in U.S. schools. "President" w/ uppercase P is the same. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 22:56, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doesn't MOS:JOBTITLES favor the lowercase? We should be following Wikipedia's guidelines, not worrying about what is popular in local schools. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:23, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's best to maintain attribution to the fact that almost all titles have a capital "S". Unless someone wants to go on a crusade to move all "(U.S. Senator)" titles to "(U.S. senator)", we should keep the format the same. I don't think MOS:JOBTITLES does favor a lowercase anyways. This is a title, not a sentence. All official titles would have a caps there. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 20:15, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the formal title would not use the abbreviation "U.S." For example, I believe "President of the United States" is a formal title, but "U.S. President" is not (and therefore should be "U.S. president"). —BarrelProof (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The use of plain "(senator)" might depend on a guideline (or lack of one) regarding differentiation between people in subcategories of Category:United States Senators (note uppercase "S") and those in subcategories of Category:State senators of the United States (note lowercase "s"). Perhaps postings regarding this discussion at such venues as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation) and/or Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization) may bring additional participation.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the two other cases in the above list from Category:Republican Party United States Senators that use "senator" with extra words: Arthur Brown (Utah senator) and Frederick Hale (U.S. senator). I checked the potential for ambiguity if these were simplified to just "(senator)". In both cases, I found politicians of other countries, but no state-level senators, and I think the other countries do not use the title of "senator", so I think both of those could be simplified to "(senator)". I also don't see any ambiguity for simplifying the name of this article to "Dan Sullivan (senator)" —BarrelProof (talk) 16:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.81.6 (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for U.S. senator – "U.S. senator" is used more commonly than American senator. Not sure whose bright idea it was to move all of the politicians to "American senator", but they need to get a lot more people involved than just three. Corky 22:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support without cap: U.S. senator, which is also most common recent books per n-grams. Dicklyon (talk) 03:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation) and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization).    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:32, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: Style should be (politician) and (American politician), none of this (American Senator), (US Senator) and so on. Onetwothreeip (talk) 04:25, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F859162195

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