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I'm writing to determine the status of American indoor soccer particularly the Major Indoor Soccer League, and the National Professional Soccer League. From my understanding I don't see how both leagues aren't considered fully professional. Mohrflies (talk) posted severa1 links on August 2013 to support that argument here they are: I recently added a list of professional American indoor leagues to the USA entry, giving a source for each one. This list was deleted with the flippant, "Sources do not confirm the leagues as fully pro." However, the sources were respected soccer historians who characterized the leagues as "professional". Since I did not understand the dismissal of Colin Jose^[1], David Litterer^[2], Roger Allaway^[3] and Steve Holroyd as unreliable sources, I asked another editor what sources I should provide. According to him, sources should speak to "player registration regulations". That will be difficult, in fact impossible for most American professional leagues because "player registration regulations" are non-entities in the American sports scene. However, this other editor also said, "Other types of sources are usually articles that look at football clubs from a business point of view." So, here they are:

• This is a book about sports careers. See p. 133 for the entry on the MISL II, it comes right after the entries on FIFA and the World Cup.^[4]
• 1980 New York Times article about the Cosmos, at the height of their glory, wanting to play in the MISL.^[5]
• 1982 New York Times article regarding MISL player contracts. According to the Times, the league agreed that "club owners will retain television revenues and the players will receive higher salaries, per diem, termination pay and playoff revenues. Minimum salaries were increased to $2,000 a month."^[6]
• 1984 New York Times article about the Phoenix Pride selling the contracts of the last nine players on the team after losing $2.2 million the previous year.^[7]
• 1984 New York Times article on NASL teams moving to MISL, which required the NASL teams to post a "$400,000 entry fee and a $250,000 letter of credit."^[8]
• 1986 New York Times article about MISL teams refusing to release players for the World Cup. According to the Times, "The M.I.S,L. team owners contend that the players have contracts and that their first duty is to their teams."^[9]
• 1986 New York Times article about team-owner rebellion against league commissioner. One team owner said, "He had done his part in cutting back on high-priced players."^[10]
• 1986 Chicago Tribune article about an MISL player making $80,000-$90,000 a season.^[11]
• 1987 New York Times article profiling a "professional soccer player" in the MISL.^[12]
• 1987 New York Times article on failure of the New York Express. The team had planned to go public (sell stock like Manchester United just did).^[13]
• According to this 1988 LA Times article, MISL teams had a $1.275 million salary cap.^[14]
• 1988 article about the struggle for amateur players when it comes to giving up a good paying job to pursue an uncertain career as a professional indoor soccer player.^[15]
• 1989 LA Times article about the collapse of the Los Angeles Lazers. According to the article, "Lazer (and LA Lakers) owner Jerry Buss, who has reportedly lost more than $7 million on the franchise since its inception." ^[16]
• 1990 article regarding expansion of the American Indoor Soccer Association. Note the comparisons between the AISA and MISL.^[17]
• According to the Baltimore Sun in 1991, "Hale said he wants to invite all nine members of the NPSL into the MISL. "We would be the largest professional soccer league in the country if all nine teams came in," he said. However, Hale said he doesn't expect all nine NPSL teams to meet the "requirements" of the MSL. One of the main stumbling blocks to a consolidation of NPSL teams with the MSL is the difference in salary caps between the two leagues. The MSL has a team salary cap of $755,000; the NPSL cap is about $300,000. MSL players have been asked to take sizable pay cuts over the past three years and probably would protest further reductions." ^[18]
• 1995 lawsuit^[19]
• 1997 LA Times article regarding back-pay owed a Continental Indoor Soccer League team’s players.^[20]
• 2000 Baltimore Business Journal article about the National Professional Soccer League.^[21]
• 2001 Yale University article about an amateur player turning professional with an MISL II team.^[22]
• 2002 New York Times business section article on the MISL II^[23]
• 2003 Research Paper on small professional sports team using two NPSL teams as the basis for the study.^[24]
• This one is not online: International Sports Law and Business, Volume 1 by Wise and Meyer. There is a whole section on the various American professional leagues of the time, including MLS, A-League, NPSL, CISL, etc.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you all need more sources looking at clubs from a business point of view. Mohrflies (talk) 05:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC).[reply]

The NPSL old website states that it was professional.^[25]. Both leagues had a salary war to sign players^[26]. The NPSL secured a television deal with ESPN (a major sports channel) in 1994.^[27]. Not to mention the numerous USL players who played in within the league during the off season. Shotgun pete (talk) 06:45, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The only other time we've discussed these leagues, was at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 10#American indoor leagues. Looking at the discussion, it seemed to conclude that at least one incarnation of the Major Indoor Soccer League was fully-professional - with higher starting salaries than MLS - so I don't know why it's not listed here. Not sure about the National Professional Soccer League (1984–2001). Nfitz (talk) 03:24, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for your response. I noticed that too that there was no real conclusion pertaining to that discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 10#American indoor leagues. I agree on Major Indoor Soccer League being "fully" professional. I'm also pretty convinced that the National Professional Soccer League (1984–2001) was "fully" professional, due to the fact that numerous USL (a league considered fully professional by wikipedia standards) players and including a USL club (Montreal Impact) competed in the league during the outdoor off season. Not to mention in 1996 the debut season of the MLS an agreement was reached with the NPSL to allow players to play for both leagues.^[28]. Including the fact that the league had a salary war with the MISL over player contracts, what semi-pro/amateur league has a salary war? The league received notable coverage by having their matches broadcasted by ESPN (a major sports channel). Also according to these articles a USL First Division (fully professional by wikipedia standards) club named the Toronto Lynx had a reported player salary of $300,000 in 2006.^[29][30].In 1991, NPSL clubs also had a team salary cap of $300,000.^[31]. It would be nice to come to some fair conclusion about the status of both leagues. I don't want to waste my time including other peoples time in having to research and write articles and then have them deleted without a clear statement with facts about whether the league is "fully" professional or not. Shotgun pete (talk) 07:05, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Can this issue please be addressed. There is a lot of evidence presented for this case and none of it is being addressed or considered. Can we please reach a consensus or some conclusion to this matter in order to know where we stand on this topic. Shotgun pete (talk) 12:26, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not an expert in this, but since no-one else is commenting, I'm leaning to including them both. Meters (talk) 00:44, 19 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree and second that motion with you the evidence clearly shows that both leagues were fully professional. Both leagues had a salary war clear sign that they both were professional leagues since when do semi-pro leagues have that? Shotgun pete (talk) 5:12, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Professional players in a league is not indicative of a fully professional league. Your WP:WALL of text is WP:TLDR, please provide one or two sources which unequivocally state that the indoor league was fully professional. GiantSnowman 07:09, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would also suggest that this isn't really the right forum to discuss this. WP:NFOOTY covers only the eleven-a-side form of the game. There is consensus at AfD that it does not cover beach football or futsal, so players in those fields simply have to satisfy wider GNG. As such, I am not sure it would be appropriate to have NFOOTY apply to indoor football. Fenix down (talk) 08:12, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So the Indian Women's League began a couple days ago. According to the All India Football Federation themselves, the league is professional. Other, independent sources such as the Indian Express and Tribune India have called the league professional, with the league being launched with a "bang" and Indian international footballers will be participating in the tournament. The Tribune article provides a bit more information, mainly that the league will/is being broadcasted on the AIFF website and that sponsors were hard to find, if any, but the league is still being organized in a professional matter along the same lines as the fully-professional Indian Super League. Players are also being paid to play in the league which I think helps. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:41, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest not. Yes there might be a professional element to it, but the fact that sources suggest that there is no sponsorship deal attached at all and no t.v. deal, I am not sure what is meant by "professional" here; who is bank rolling this? Fenix down (talk) 13:51, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially being bank rolled by the AIFF. And ya, I think I agree here for now. Even when you watch the games on facebook, the sponsorship boards only have the league logo, a Nike logo (the AIFF sponsor), and an ad for the facebook page of the Indian national team. Also looking more into this, I am not sure actually if every team has players being paid. Alakpura for example is just a team from a small village. Are these girls being paid? I don't know, they have no sponsors so I assume no. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:35, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Many leagues call themselves professional but probably aren't in a way that players can live from it. Colombia and Venezuela have one since this year. And if even Germany or Sweden are not fully pro, guess no other are. Really doubt the Eredivisie that's listed here is fully pro. -Koppapa (talk) 16:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How are we treating 2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A, which was in 2016 the top league in Indonesia, with the same teams that used to play in the listed at WP:FPL Indonesia Super League. For that matter, how are we treating the 2017 replacement 2017 Liga 1 which again is planned to use the same teams from 2015 Indonesia Super League. I'm seeing prods for players who played in 2016? I've seen no indication that any of these teams have become non-fully-professional. Nfitz (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Anyone? Nfitz (talk) 05:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: it's a though one to say since the football federations in Indoesnia (and many other parts of the world) is so hectically operated. Based on WP:NFOOTY guidelines I think we will need some kind of proof to show that it was run professionally such as salaries or sponsorship's. However there is this documentary which makes me doubt that it was run professionally, although of course it is all assumption. View if you are interested. Inter&anthro (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I backtrack, I think the 2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A was possibly professional but the other leagues and stuff that where started in the super league's absence probably were not. Thanks Inter&anthro (talk) 16:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm - must be something definitive in Bahasa somewhere. It's a big sport, a big country, with lots of media. I wonder what's written on the various Indonesian wikis. I'm not even sure which one might have the best discussion ... be it the lingua franca, Jawanese, or Sundanese I don't know. A research project one day I guess ... Nfitz (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What is the status of players who did not appear in the Football League, but did so in the Southern League prior to 1920? There are a number of wiki pages for players who played only in the Southern League prior to 1920, with editors "controlling" those pages and refuting any requests for deletion, insisting that the player is notable because prior to the addition of the Third Division to the Football League 1920, the Southern League was seen as the Football League's equal and the player was a full professional. Is there any kind of official clarification available? Beatpoet (talk) 22:43, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt it was ever entirely fully-professional, although there may have been periods before WWI when the vast majority of clubs in it were (possibly all but one or two in some seasons, although it will probably be impossible to prove either way). I would put the articles up for AfD though, as it does sound like a case of protectionism by the articles' creator.

On a related note, I noticed you have recently been creating season articles for Brentford during their time in non-League. Are you aware that these also fail the notability guidelines (specifically WP:NSEASONS – although the wording there is the vague "top professional leagues", the result of numerous AfDs has effectively meant that it is interpreted as FPLs as far as football is concerned)? Number 57 23:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agree on both points with #57. Probably the players are not notable. The league is not on WP:FPL so they would need to meet GNG. Also agree that non league season articles need to meet GNG as they are not of a level sufficient to fulfill NSEASONS. Fenix down (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mauritius was added to the list of FPLs earlier today, using this as a source. As a result (the source says nothing about the league's status), I removed it. I have now done some research and would welcome other views. This article suggests it is indeed an FPL, the key sentence being "200 players practice this sports discipline full-time and at the same time benefit from a monthly salary". However, before I added it, I thought it would be worth checking with others. The one thing that concerns me is that budget for the league is 40,000,000 rupees, or 200,000 per player. This is well below the median (261,000) and average (352,000) incomes reported in 2015 by Stats Mauritius. However, I guess this is perhaps only the central grant and clubs can raise additional funds. Thoughts anyone? Number 57 20:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its obvious from the source that there's a significant level of professionalism in the MPFL, but there's also a lot here that gives me pause. First there's the fact that the 40M rupee budget is also meant to cover "match premiums" (whatever those are?), bringing the per player average down further. Then there's concerns about stability. The article suggest that it was doubtful whether or not the 2015/16 season would even happen. It also says that "the clubs have promised to completely fulfill their role." This sounds good of course, but you don't say it out loud at press conference unless its been called into question. Finally, there's the attendance figures. I don't have hard data on this, but the article reads as if the crowds of 2000-3000 people at stade St-François Xavier are outliers, meaning the attendance figures are well below what you'd expect for fully pro league. All to told my conclusions are that full professionalism is possible, but I'd need more information to convince me of that. What I think is more likely is that this is league in the process of professionalisation. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:44, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, having recently contacted IFK Norrköping, to ask about a player, they told me that the Superettan Swedish second tier division is a fully professional league, is that correct? thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Atlantic306: There were no reliable sources to back up this statement? If no, then we have to assume that it isn't a fully-pro league. MYS77 ^✉ 19:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, just this email :

Hello,

We played in the swedish second division while Dago Funes played here. The second division called Superettan is a fully professional league.

Best regards, Fredrik Nilsson IFK Norrköping

Ursprungligt meddelande-----

Från: Jimmy Knott [32] Skickat: den 25 mars 2017 20:57 Till: IFK Norrköping Info Ämne: Dago Funes

Hi, can you please tell me whether Dago Funes played in the Swedish premier league while he was at your club. The reason I am asking is that the English Wikipedia article on him can only be kept if he has played in a fully professional league or his national team, thanks Jimmy Knott

Will ask them about rs tomorrow, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 19:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Atlantic306: Funes never played in any division higher than the Superettan. He does not pass through WP:NFOOTY but may pass through WP:GNG if you gather significant media coverage about him. All of these sources need to be WP:RS, though. MYS77 ^✉ 14:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I wasn't writing an article but I prodded a one line stub about him (just deleted) and was doublechecking if he passed NFOOTY. Have emailed IFK Norrköping to ask for rs about the Superettan, thanks for your help Atlantic306 (talk) 18:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that the Championnat National (the third tier of French football) is considered as a fully professional league. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether our definition of fully-professional relates to the clubs participating in a league or the players playing in a league. In the Championnat National (and the three tiers below) it is the case that players are paid a minimum wage through a federal contract (contrat fédéral) with the Union Nationale des Footballeurs Professionnels (UNFP). Note that these are standard contracts written by the FFF and validated by the UNFP. (Source - see section 3 Qu'est-ce qu'un contrat fédéral?)

In the National, it is obligatory that players sign a full-time (i.e. 35 hours per week) contract (again, see section 3 in previous link). Players in lower divisions on the federal contracts have the option to work part-time (60%) so I am not proposing that these are fully professional league (however, neither are they amateur as the English translation of their name suggests but that's another matter). Players are then put into one of three categories largely depending on their previous career, and given a certain number of points. Each point counts towards the player's wage, at a value of €14.40 (roughly £12.20, US$15.30) per point for the 2016–17 season (Source). The three categories are as follows:

• Case 1: The player was on a professional contract or an elite contract (players at professional clubs not subject to the minimum wages of professional players, e.g. recent academy graduates) during the previous season or part thereof — 250 points regardless of the player's new division
• Case 2: The player has been on a professional or elite contract at any point during their career, or has arrived from a foreign country and requires a contract for visa purposes — 180 points regardless of division
• Case 3: All other players — 130 points in National, 120 points in CFA, 110 points in CFA2 and 100 points in DH

Therefore, a player in the Championnat National is earning anywhere between €1,872 (£1,588, US$1,991) and €3,600 (£3,054, US$3,830) per month. To my mind, this is clearly enough money to qualify as fully professional. But as I said at the start, it is the players who are professional rather than the clubs. Is this acceptable under our current guidelines? BigDom (talk) 10:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how a club cannot be considered fully professional if all the players are professional? Are managers/staff full-time? GiantSnowman 10:52, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I simply meant that the clubs do not have professional players on their books in the same way as e.g. English league clubs. The players are not paid by the clubs, but through a central agency. I don't know about the arrangements for managers and staff to be honest. BigDom (talk) 10:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Football League 2 no longer officially exists. When used, it reffers to Gamma Ethniki as stated by the article itself. Also, the article in its lead says that it is an amateur league( Gamma Ethniki (Greek: Γ΄ Εθνική Ερασιτεχνική Κατηγορία, C National Amateur Division), is the third highest football league in Greece. ) Additionally, The Greek football federation includes it in their regulations for amateur matches^[1]. For these reasons, I propose to remove this league from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues--Kostas20142 (talk) 13:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Spent no time on it, but the article says its history was blah blah...professional from 1983 until 2014 season..blah blah, so I have noted the entry on FPL page as such. Surely it should stay there if the article is accurate? and if the article is not accurate, it should be corrected.ClubOranje^T 13:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some periods it was professionall(although the clubs were not even close to noteable) --Kostas20142 (talk) 13:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

the clarification however is a good step--Kostas20142 (talk) 14:00, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why this is listed as a FPL. If it ever was, it hasn't been for a number of years. Dumbarton have played at that level for some years as a part-time club, [33] although they are in some danger of relegation this year. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jmorrison230582: Then, Scottish League One and Scottish League Two shouldn't be considered fully-professional divisions as well. However, it would be nice to notify some people at WT:FOOTY to gather more opinions. MYS77 ^✉ 06:28, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The 3rd and 4th levels of Scottish football have never been considered fully pro. As for the 2nd level, one semi-pro team is probably OK, it's what we have in Finland as well. "Fully professional" is merely an indicator of media coverage, which applies to both. GiantSnowman 08:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delist - Last night I watched two more part-time clubs, Alloa Athletic and Brechin City, playing-off to join Dumbarton in next year's Championship. Brechin won on penalties to delight their 41-year-old player/manager, and the "pitch invasion" was slightly strange in that the players clearly knew all the fans who came on! One side of Brechin's ground is famously a hedge – in the first leg of this play-off final (presumably their biggest home game of the season) they attracted a crowd of 700, despite slashing prices and letting u16s in free. Apparently the guy who hit the winning penalty is returning to England as he's finishing his course at Stirling University. Post match, some of the players got in wheelie bins full of cold water at the side of the pitch. Don't get me wrong it was an enjoyable watch and I'm sure me and the few hundred other people who tuned to BBC Alba went away entertained. But "fully professional"? Not on your nelly. Or "nae chance" to borrow the vernacular. Hibernian and (possibly) Dundee United going up to the Premiership will leave the Championship with vastly-reduced coverage and average attendances if that is going to be our metric. I'd also point out that the references which are supposed to support this League's inclusion on the list appear to date from before the League's creation. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 09:40, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Now that the first match of the professional league is played which is pioneered by 8 clubs (more than six required to be recognized by the AFC as a national league). I request that the Philippines Football League should be added to the list.

Also according to this news, the Philippines Football League (and its staff and players) was granted a professional license by the Games and Amusement Board, the regulatory body of professional sports in the country such as basketball's Philippine Basketball Association. http://www.foxsportsasia.com/en-ph/news/gab-grants-pfl-professional-license/

Hariboneagle927 (talk) 11:56, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like it could be an FPL, but nothing has been added to support this since the last discussion, so I am not sure I would want it added to the list based on this source alone. I would need to see clearer statements as to what "professional" means here. The purpose of WP:FPL is to identify leagues that are not just (or do not just term themselves) professional, but exhibit through reliable sourcing a level of professionalism sufficient that it is clear that the players involved in the league require no additional form of employment, ideally sourced to documents indicating minimum salary requirements. Fenix down (talk) 09:40, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have read previous discussions about including PFL to the list. The league has already started [34] [35], 8 teams have already given license. It means 8 teams have met the AFC criteria and the PFF itself [36]. In fact, Games and Amusement Board has issued their first professional footballer license just recently [37] [38]. The league has completed its structures needed to become a fully professional league. With teams having their own stadium, training facilities, financial stability, professional players(full time), youth and reserve teams, I just can't believe PFL hasn't included in this list. Some users in last discussions are pointing out that the league hasn't started yet, but now it has already started. What are other issues? Theinkognitoman (talk) 10:16, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that there is a difference between a league declaring itself "professional" (which has both financial and behavioural meanings and a league being able to demonstrate "full professionalism" as required by WP:FPL (which is essentially a purely financial criterion). Looking at the terms laid down here, there are a number of gaps I think that need to be closed.

1. Section 6.1 discusses professional contracts but neither notes the number of players who need to have them, nor a minimum salary that could be used to indicate full professionalism
2. Sections 6.3.6 indicate that key back room staff do not need to be full time. To my mind if you don't have a full time CEO or other key administrative staff it is more likely that the playing staff are not fully professional.

There has clearly been a concerted effort to improve the level of professionalism in the Philippines, but I am not sure that the documentation presented indicates it is universally of a level within the top division that could be deemed fully pro. Fenix down (talk) 12:59, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]